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Axelmania wrote:

HWalsh wrote:

Axelmania wrote:HWalsh was initially correct in that he said the CS issued the demands ( well, not correct there, they were requests) but then perhaps unconsciously shifted to saying it was Joseph Prosek who issued them.

The requests (not demands) we were told of seemed reasonable enough. They are at least something worth discussing and not forgoing 90% of your allotted conversation time.

For example: the Coalition had 12% non human population and only 6% were PsiStalkers... But one of the REQUESTS was to stop associating with aliens.

Even if these non-humans weren't citizens, it is hard to believe the CS did not associate with them. Were they non-human non-aliens? Perhaps some Sasquatch native to north america? Or is the other 6% the dairy cattle population?

However annoying the first 0 PA Coalition States was, the second Coalition States that formed in 34'PA under new leadership really shouldn't be blamed for it.

How do you think the CS would have handled if THEY were given right now 134 requests.

I'll only outline 10:

1. Karl Prosek must step down and Joseph Prosek may not seek office.
2. The CS must reduce its military (including Psi-Stalkers, Dog Boys, and Skelebots) to no greater than 2.5 million.
3. The CS may not expand its borders into any location without gaining expressed consent of the people that were already there.
4. The CS agrees to cease the use of "hate speech" and must disband its state news agencies.
5. The CS agrees to provide free education to the citizens in the cities and the burbs. All education material must be approved by the Council of Lazlo.
6. The CS must agree to holding open forums where people can speak freely against CS policy without fear of reprisal from the CS.
7. Karl Prosek, Joseph Prosek, and the military leaders of the CS must agree to travel to the city of Lazlo and face charges of War Crimes for the Genocide of Tolkeen.
8. The CS must condemn the murders of dbees committed during the Night of Forgiveness.
9. The CS agrees to sign a non-aggression and mutual defense pact with Lazlo and the Colorado Baronies.
10. The CS must state that the city of Lazlo and the Colorado Baronies, are legitimate governments and must recognize their sovereignty.

How do you think the CS would react to that?

Karl "you take this son."
Jo2 "LOL No."
Karl "you kids and your slang."

Well you left out how they'd kill the messenger.

Also. No, it's not more severe.

The FoM had their own culture. Telling them to stop practicing magic (even if it is distasteful) is just as severe as telling the CS to stop using propaganda.

Your argument was the CS requests were reasonable (lol they weren't) when the 10 I laid out actually ARE reasonable.

Reducing the military to 2.5 million? That's reasonable. It's still a huge army, but the CS has proven to be violent aggressors. Reasonably you want to restrict their ability to threaten others.

Try them for war crimes? They are war criminals.

It's unreasonable to provide education and safe discourse to their people? You have odd grounds for severe.

Recognize other kingdoms on their continent? That's harsh and severe?

These are just as, and I'd argue more reasonable than, anything they demanded of the FoM.

HWalsh wrote:

Axelmania wrote:

HWalsh wrote:

Axelmania wrote:HWalsh was initially correct in that he said the CS issued the demands ( well, not correct there, they were requests) but then perhaps unconsciously shifted to saying it was Joseph Prosek who issued them.

The requests (not demands) we were told of seemed reasonable enough. They are at least something worth discussing and not forgoing 90% of your allotted conversation time.

For example: the Coalition had 12% non human population and only 6% were PsiStalkers... But one of the REQUESTS was to stop associating with aliens.

Even if these non-humans weren't citizens, it is hard to believe the CS did not associate with them. Were they non-human non-aliens? Perhaps some Sasquatch native to north america? Or is the other 6% the dairy cattle population?

However annoying the first 0 PA Coalition States was, the second Coalition States that formed in 34'PA under new leadership really shouldn't be blamed for it.

How do you think the CS would have handled if THEY were given right now 134 requests.

I'll only outline 10:

1. Karl Prosek must step down and Joseph Prosek may not seek office.
2. The CS must reduce its military (including Psi-Stalkers, Dog Boys, and Skelebots) to no greater than 2.5 million.
3. The CS may not expand its borders into any location without gaining expressed consent of the people that were already there.
4. The CS agrees to cease the use of "hate speech" and must disband its state news agencies.
5. The CS agrees to provide free education to the citizens in the cities and the burbs. All education material must be approved by the Council of Lazlo.
6. The CS must agree to holding open forums where people can speak freely against CS policy without fear of reprisal from the CS.
7. Karl Prosek, Joseph Prosek, and the military leaders of the CS must agree to travel to the city of Lazlo and face charges of War Crimes for the Genocide of Tolkeen.
8. The CS must condemn the murders of dbees committed during the Night of Forgiveness.
9. The CS agrees to sign a non-aggression and mutual defense pact with Lazlo and the Colorado Baronies.
10. The CS must state that the city of Lazlo and the Colorado Baronies, are legitimate governments and must recognize their sovereignty.

How do you think the CS would react to that?

Karl "you take this son."
Jo2 "LOL No."
Karl "you kids and your slang."

Well you left out how they'd kill the messenger.

Also. No, it's not more severe.

The FoM had their own culture. Telling them to stop practicing magic (even if it is distasteful) is just as severe as telling the CS to stop using propaganda.

Your argument was the CS requests were reasonable (lol they weren't) when the 10 I laid out actually ARE reasonable.

Reducing the military to 2.5 million? That's reasonable. It's still a huge army, but the CS has proven to be violent aggressors. Reasonably you want to restrict their ability to threaten others.

Try them for war crimes? They are war criminals.

It's unreasonable to provide education and safe discourse to their people? You have odd grounds for severe.

Recognize other kingdoms on their continent? That's harsh and severe?

These are just as, and I'd argue more reasonable than, anything they demanded of the FoM.

Just for kicks and giggles look at todays real world.
Saudi Arabia has a list of demands that they have issued to Qatar...
and no shock, their much smaller list has been rejected as an intolerable infringement of sovereignty.
Just like every other nation in history that has been handed a list of demands.

No nation, ever, is going to just give up its sovereignty, especially when the demands are basically that the nation cease to exist. I mean seriously... asking magical communities to give up magic and associating with magical beings?
Seriously?

1) forbid summoning demons/dragons/elementals/aliens
2) forbid association with above
3) deny above citizenship to grand city
4) deny above citizenship in Federation
5) avoid extra inter-dimensional trade
6) suggestion: stronger laws regarding personal freedoms
7) suggestion: stronger laws governing use of magic

Okay, gonna go through these for 'reasonableness'.

1: Demons, I can see; in Palladium, demons are intrinsically malevolent, and can be considered an unacceptable presence on the planet. The other three are arbitrary, resulting from the CS' ignorance, bigotry and fear of all non-human, non-subjugated life-forms.
2: Ditto.
3: Again.
4: And yet again.
5: This one is flat-out absurd. It's an attempt at economic bullying. And, for a society that is not technologically as developed as the CS, it's a blatant effort at putting the FoM on a permanent disadvantage.
6&7 are both vague enough that we can't really address them. "Stronger laws on personal freedoms" could mean stronger laws protecting them (such as a ban on using magical enslavement of sentient beings) or it could mean stronger restrictions on freedom of expression and association. The former is a reasonable suggestion; the latter deserves nothing but contempt and derision, especially coming from a foreign power (see, for instance, the efforts of Islamists* to get the West to crack down on 'religiously offensive' materials, such as the Danish political cartoon debacle from several years ago).

So the 'reasonable' demands were mostly centered around ensuring economic and political supremacy for the CS, and the disenfranchisement of a large swath of Federation citizens. I'd hate to see what it takes to count as an 'unreasonable' position, in that case.

(Note: For the record, deciding in the face of this list to conquer the continent is ALSO not reasonable in the least.)

Freemage wrote:1) forbid summoning demons/dragons/elementals/aliens
2) forbid association with above
3) deny above citizenship to grand city
4) deny above citizenship in Federation
5) avoid extra inter-dimensional trade
6) suggestion: stronger laws regarding personal freedoms
7) suggestion: stronger laws governing use of magic

Okay, gonna go through these for 'reasonableness'.

1: Demons, I can see; in Palladium, demons are intrinsically malevolent, and can be considered an unacceptable presence on the planet. The other three are arbitrary, resulting from the CS' ignorance, bigotry and fear of all non-human, non-subjugated life-forms.
2: Ditto.
3: Again.
4: And yet again.
5: This one is flat-out absurd. It's an attempt at economic bullying. And, for a society that is not technologically as developed as the CS, it's a blatant effort at putting the FoM on a permanent disadvantage.
6&7 are both vague enough that we can't really address them. "Stronger laws on personal freedoms" could mean stronger laws protecting them (such as a ban on using magical enslavement of sentient beings) or it could mean stronger restrictions on freedom of expression and association. The former is a reasonable suggestion; the latter deserves nothing but contempt and derision, especially coming from a foreign power (see, for instance, the efforts of Islamists* to get the West to crack down on 'religiously offensive' materials, such as the Danish political cartoon debacle from several years ago).

So the 'reasonable' demands were mostly centered around ensuring economic and political supremacy for the CS, and the disenfranchisement of a large swath of Federation citizens. I'd hate to see what it takes to count as an 'unreasonable' position, in that case.

(Note: For the record, deciding in the face of this list to conquer the continent is ALSO not reasonable in the least.)

I would also note that for hilarity...
the CS is demanding that other nations enact "Stronger laws on personal freedoms". Because we all know that the CS is a paragon in that area.
Quite literally the only reasonable demand is #1, since it is quite easy to argue that summoning is tantamount to kidnapping with slavery tacked on if you bind your summons. Which, no matter how you slice it, is the sort of thing that a nation does have a vested interest in quashing. Even today the US (and most other nations) take dim views of slavery and human trafficking and take all available steps to quash it and exert leverage on states that do not.
But the rest of them? They start at utter jokes and work down to 'act of war'
And this is just the first 10? There are still another 124 more? (so twelve more lists each just as long as this one) and considering what is on this one I am frankly worried what was on the other ones? I mean there are only so many 'reasonable' demands that you can put on before your demands become either "surrender to us unconditionally and become our minions" or "this is just a farce and we want you to leave but are trying to pretend its your fault so we are going to act like we are being in good faith here...so here is a list of impossible things to do so you can never actually pollute our presence xenos scum"

eliakon wrote:

Freemage wrote:1) forbid summoning demons/dragons/elementals/aliens
2) forbid association with above
3) deny above citizenship to grand city
4) deny above citizenship in Federation
5) avoid extra inter-dimensional trade
6) suggestion: stronger laws regarding personal freedoms
7) suggestion: stronger laws governing use of magic

Okay, gonna go through these for 'reasonableness'.

1: Demons, I can see; in Palladium, demons are intrinsically malevolent, and can be considered an unacceptable presence on the planet. The other three are arbitrary, resulting from the CS' ignorance, bigotry and fear of all non-human, non-subjugated life-forms.
2: Ditto.
3: Again.
4: And yet again.
5: This one is flat-out absurd. It's an attempt at economic bullying. And, for a society that is not technologically as developed as the CS, it's a blatant effort at putting the FoM on a permanent disadvantage.
6&7 are both vague enough that we can't really address them. "Stronger laws on personal freedoms" could mean stronger laws protecting them (such as a ban on using magical enslavement of sentient beings) or it could mean stronger restrictions on freedom of expression and association. The former is a reasonable suggestion; the latter deserves nothing but contempt and derision, especially coming from a foreign power (see, for instance, the efforts of Islamists* to get the West to crack down on 'religiously offensive' materials, such as the Danish political cartoon debacle from several years ago).

So the 'reasonable' demands were mostly centered around ensuring economic and political supremacy for the CS, and the disenfranchisement of a large swath of Federation citizens. I'd hate to see what it takes to count as an 'unreasonable' position, in that case.

(Note: For the record, deciding in the face of this list to conquer the continent is ALSO not reasonable in the least.)

I would also note that for hilarity...
the CS is demanding that other nations enact "Stronger laws on personal freedoms". Because we all know that the CS is a paragon in that area.
Quite literally the only reasonable demand is #1, since it is quite easy to argue that summoning is tantamount to kidnapping with slavery tacked on if you bind your summons. Which, no matter how you slice it, is the sort of thing that a nation does have a vested interest in quashing. Even today the US (and most other nations) take dim views of slavery and human trafficking and take all available steps to quash it and exert leverage on states that do not.
But the rest of them? They start at utter jokes and work down to 'act of war'
And this is just the first 10? There are still another 124 more? (so twelve more lists each just as long as this one) and considering what is on this one I am frankly worried what was on the other ones? I mean there are only so many 'reasonable' demands that you can put on before your demands become either "surrender to us unconditionally and become our minions" or "this is just a farce and we want you to leave but are trying to pretend its your fault so we are going to act like we are being in good faith here...so here is a list of impossible things to do so you can never actually pollute our presence xenos scum"

even the first demand isn't always that reasonable. there is a great deal of difference in how a warlock summons things as compared to shifters, for one thing. for another, while we in our current time think poorly of slavery... it has been a thing for far longer than it hasn't. certainly not always in the form it existed in the american south or places like haiti, but arguably, the weirdos are us people that think slavery is wrong in fact, the CS essentially practices slavery (though i don't think they had dog boys at the time in question).

(to be clear, i still think slavery is wrong, i just can't argue that the belief in every person's right to be free is in any way typical of the human race as a whole throughout the course of our history).

and even then, i would argue that there's a difference between summoning some sort of alien equivalent of a rat and summoning a sapient being.

HWalsh wrote:

Axelmania wrote:

HWalsh wrote:

Axelmania wrote:HWalsh was initially correct in that he said the CS issued the demands ( well, not correct there, they were requests) but then perhaps unconsciously shifted to saying it was Joseph Prosek who issued them.

The requests (not demands) we were told of seemed reasonable enough. They are at least something worth discussing and not forgoing 90% of your allotted conversation time.

For example: the Coalition had 12% non human population and only 6% were PsiStalkers... But one of the REQUESTS was to stop associating with aliens.

Even if these non-humans weren't citizens, it is hard to believe the CS did not associate with them. Were they non-human non-aliens? Perhaps some Sasquatch native to north america? Or is the other 6% the dairy cattle population?

However annoying the first 0 PA Coalition States was, the second Coalition States that formed in 34'PA under new leadership really shouldn't be blamed for it.

How do you think the CS would have handled if THEY were given right now 134 requests.

I'll only outline 10:

1. Karl Prosek must step down and Joseph Prosek may not seek office.
2. The CS must reduce its military (including Psi-Stalkers, Dog Boys, and Skelebots) to no greater than 2.5 million.
3. The CS may not expand its borders into any location without gaining expressed consent of the people that were already there.
4. The CS agrees to cease the use of "hate speech" and must disband its state news agencies.
5. The CS agrees to provide free education to the citizens in the cities and the burbs. All education material must be approved by the Council of Lazlo.
6. The CS must agree to holding open forums where people can speak freely against CS policy without fear of reprisal from the CS.
7. Karl Prosek, Joseph Prosek, and the military leaders of the CS must agree to travel to the city of Lazlo and face charges of War Crimes for the Genocide of Tolkeen.
8. The CS must condemn the murders of dbees committed during the Night of Forgiveness.
9. The CS agrees to sign a non-aggression and mutual defense pact with Lazlo and the Colorado Baronies.
10. The CS must state that the city of Lazlo and the Colorado Baronies, are legitimate governments and must recognize their sovereignty.

How do you think the CS would react to that?

Karl "you take this son."
Jo2 "LOL No."
Karl "you kids and your slang."

Well you left out how they'd kill the messenger.

Also. No, it's not more severe.

The FoM had their own culture. Telling them to stop practicing magic (even if it is distasteful) is just as severe as telling the CS to stop using propaganda.

Your argument was the CS requests were reasonable (lol they weren't) when the 10 I laid out actually ARE reasonable.

Reducing the military to 2.5 million? That's reasonable. It's still a huge army, but the CS has proven to be violent aggressors. Reasonably you want to restrict their ability to threaten others.

Try them for war crimes? They are war criminals.

It's unreasonable to provide education and safe discourse to their people? You have odd grounds for severe.

Recognize other kingdoms on their continent? That's harsh and severe?

These are just as, and I'd argue more reasonable than, anything they demanded of the FoM.

To be war criminals, they'd have to have been subject to something that makes what they did crimes. That is why the bombings on both Axis and Allied sides in WWII were not and can not be war crimes; there was no treaty that forbid strategic bombing like the firebombing of Dresden, and you need to use a ludicrously tortured definition of "undefended" to try and invoke Hague regarding bombardment. So, please cite the treaty to which the CS states are a signatory that would make anything that they did a war crime.

dreicunan wrote:

HWalsh wrote:

Axelmania wrote:

HWalsh wrote:

Axelmania wrote:HWalsh was initially correct in that he said the CS issued the demands ( well, not correct there, they were requests) but then perhaps unconsciously shifted to saying it was Joseph Prosek who issued them.

The requests (not demands) we were told of seemed reasonable enough. They are at least something worth discussing and not forgoing 90% of your allotted conversation time.

For example: the Coalition had 12% non human population and only 6% were PsiStalkers... But one of the REQUESTS was to stop associating with aliens.

Even if these non-humans weren't citizens, it is hard to believe the CS did not associate with them. Were they non-human non-aliens? Perhaps some Sasquatch native to north america? Or is the other 6% the dairy cattle population?

However annoying the first 0 PA Coalition States was, the second Coalition States that formed in 34'PA under new leadership really shouldn't be blamed for it.

How do you think the CS would have handled if THEY were given right now 134 requests.

I'll only outline 10:

1. Karl Prosek must step down and Joseph Prosek may not seek office.
2. The CS must reduce its military (including Psi-Stalkers, Dog Boys, and Skelebots) to no greater than 2.5 million.
3. The CS may not expand its borders into any location without gaining expressed consent of the people that were already there.
4. The CS agrees to cease the use of "hate speech" and must disband its state news agencies.
5. The CS agrees to provide free education to the citizens in the cities and the burbs. All education material must be approved by the Council of Lazlo.
6. The CS must agree to holding open forums where people can speak freely against CS policy without fear of reprisal from the CS.
7. Karl Prosek, Joseph Prosek, and the military leaders of the CS must agree to travel to the city of Lazlo and face charges of War Crimes for the Genocide of Tolkeen.
8. The CS must condemn the murders of dbees committed during the Night of Forgiveness.
9. The CS agrees to sign a non-aggression and mutual defense pact with Lazlo and the Colorado Baronies.
10. The CS must state that the city of Lazlo and the Colorado Baronies, are legitimate governments and must recognize their sovereignty.

How do you think the CS would react to that?

Karl "you take this son."
Jo2 "LOL No."
Karl "you kids and your slang."

Well you left out how they'd kill the messenger.

Also. No, it's not more severe.

The FoM had their own culture. Telling them to stop practicing magic (even if it is distasteful) is just as severe as telling the CS to stop using propaganda.

Your argument was the CS requests were reasonable (lol they weren't) when the 10 I laid out actually ARE reasonable.

Reducing the military to 2.5 million? That's reasonable. It's still a huge army, but the CS has proven to be violent aggressors. Reasonably you want to restrict their ability to threaten others.

Try them for war crimes? They are war criminals.

It's unreasonable to provide education and safe discourse to their people? You have odd grounds for severe.

Recognize other kingdoms on their continent? That's harsh and severe?

These are just as, and I'd argue more reasonable than, anything they demanded of the FoM.

To be war criminals, they'd have to have been subject to something that makes what they did crimes. That is why the bombings on both Axis and Allied sides in WWII were not and can not be war crimes; there was no treaty that forbid strategic bombing like the firebombing of Dresden, and you need to use a ludicrously tortured definition of "undefended" to try and invoke Hague regarding bombardment. So, please cite the treaty to which the CS states are a signatory that would make anything that they did a war crime.

Since no one knows in game what the actual legal system of the universe is that is a wonderfully vague issue isn't it.
It might be a crime it might not be. Who knows? Its not like anyone has a copy of the laws of the CS handy...
...which is, in fact one of the base issues that crops up all the time. People tend to argue over what is, or is not legal in the CS based on different (mutually incompatible) statements from the books.
So while it is impossible to state with certainty that it is illegal, it is equally impossible to state that it is not illegal.

As for the WWII issue, your wrong. The reason it was not prosecuted was that the bombing was done by the winning side. There were plenty of legal precedents that could have been cited, and in fact, some of those same precedents were cited in some of the trials later against specific war criminals...
but no one on the Allied side was going to submit their own soldiers, staff, commanders, and politicians to a war crimes trial. The entire notion would be absurd. Its the exact same reason that the US today does not press for war crimes trials for our own soldiers for waterboarding, when the US charged, tried, found guilty and hung Japanese soldiers for the same offense...
winners don't try themselves, they never have.

eliakon wrote:Since no one knows in game what the actual legal system of the universe is that is a wonderfully vague issue isn't it.
It might be a crime it might not be. Who knows? Its not like anyone has a copy of the laws of the CS handy...
...which is, in fact one of the base issues that crops up all the time. People tend to argue over what is, or is not legal in the CS based on different (mutually incompatible) statements from the books.
So while it is impossible to state with certainty that it is illegal, it is equally impossible to state that it is not illegal.

As for the WWII issue, your wrong. The reason it was not prosecuted was that the bombing was done by the winning side. There were plenty of legal precedents that could have been cited, and in fact, some of those same precedents were cited in some of the trials later against specific war criminals...
but no one on the Allied side was going to submit their own soldiers, staff, commanders, and politicians to a war crimes trial. The entire notion would be absurd. Its the exact same reason that the US today does not press for war crimes trials for our own soldiers for waterboarding, when the US charged, tried, found guilty and hung Japanese soldiers for the same offense...
winners don't try themselves, they never have.

If you think that I am wrong, feel free to cite the relevant treaty that would have made strategic bombing of cities illegal; however, you won't be able to do so as none existed. Hague 1907 covered bombardment of land from land and bombardment of land from sea, but nothing covered either bombardment of land from air. Even under Hague 1907, the strategic bombings carried out by both sides wouldn't have been war crimes unless you are going to use ludicrous definitions of "undefended". Sure, you can find people who argue otherwise (Nazis and then East Germany made lots of arguments in favor Hamburg and especially Dresden being illegal, for example, and people have been trying to come up with ways to make Hiroshima and/or Nagisaki crimes basically since the bombs dropped); if you can find an argument that actually gets past the whole "there weren't actually any treaties about air bombardment" issue, let us know. Just remember to avoid conflating "moral" and "criminal" while you search for those arguments.

When you win a war where the other side did nasty things, you put on war crimes trials regardless of what treaties may or may not have existed. The Nuremberg trials prosecuted Nazi leaders for (among other things) "crimes against humanity", which were bad things that weren't necessarily illegal. It was a way to prosecute the Nazi leadership that had survived the war for the awful things they had done, despite the fact that none of these laws were actually written down anywhere.

Saddam Hussein was executed the same way. None of his actions were illegal, since he was in charge when he did them.

War crimes trials are a point of contention between our ideals (the rule of law), and the harsh reality that when it comes to nations, the only real law is power. That's what sovereignty really is -- the power to do what you want. If you defeat the Coalition, you can put on whatever show trial you want, accuse them of any crime you like, and punish them however you see fit. You don't need a treaty when you are the conquerors. Of course, they can do the same to you.

HWalsh wrote:Well you left out how they'd kill the messenger.

I see no reason to think that the CS would kill messengers so long as they didn't break any CS laws.

Obviously it would be a bad idea to pick a Balrog demon or something like that to use to send a list of requests to the CS.

The CS received Nostrous Dunscon peacefully when they invited him to convey their requests. So long as proper formalities were observed (ie don't just teleport unscheduled into a meeting and begin making the requests, that would be seen as aggression) and you were polite about it, there would be no reason for the CS to kill you.

HWalsh wrote:Also. No, it's not more severe.

The FoM had their own culture. Telling them to stop practicing magic (even if it is distasteful) is just as severe as telling the CS to stop using propaganda.

Being 'culture' doesn't equivocate radically different practices.

We should first clarify, if we are discussing the pre-Prosek CS (which existed in WB16 as the CS was created in 1 PA and Joseph came into prominence in 12 PA, Sedition muddied this by having Joseph as Chairman prior to 34 PA foundation) that it's unclear how much propaganda was actually in effect when Nostrous attacked the CS. I'm sure they did have valid warnings against shapeshifters and supernatural beings.

Secondly: the FoM was NOT asked to stop using magic.

They were encouraged to adopt stronger laws governing its use.

We understand the difference between "stop using guns entirely" and "adopt stronger laws governing guns" or "stop using nuclear reactions entirely" vs "adopt stronger laws regarding nuclear energy".

HWalsh wrote:Your argument was the CS requests were reasonable (lol they weren't)

I notice you haven't bothered to address any of them individually.

HWalsh wrote:the 10 I laid out actually ARE reasonable.

Requesting that the leader of a nation step down is quite severe. Notice that the CS did not do this to Nostrous Dunscon. Even though he simply ruled by power and was not a democratically elected Chairman like Joseph and Karl.

HWalsh wrote:Reducing the military to 2.5 million? That's reasonable. It's still a huge army, but the CS has proven to be violent aggressors. Reasonably you want to restrict their ability to threaten others.

The CS needs its army to defend the continent against supernatural menaces. They haven't proven to be aggressors to me, taking out someone who rules a neighbouring state through power and doesn't treat its native human citizens fairly isn't aggressive, it's liberating.

HWalsh wrote:Try them for war crimes? They are war criminals.

War Crimes as defined by whom? The International Criminal Court of 2002 probably isn't around anymore. Why should Lazlo get to judge the CS?

HWalsh wrote:It's unreasonable to provide education and safe discourse to their people? You have odd grounds for severe.

Regarding these two points...

5. The CS agrees to provide free education to the citizens in the cities and the burbs. All education material must be approved by the Council of Lazlo.

Firstly: ARE there citizens in the burbs? I thought that the point of citizenship was to get out of them.

Secondly: why should a government be obligated to provide free education? That's a matter of internal politics. I can understand foreign governments making some encouragements of social policies.

Thirdly: why should a foreign government have to approve of the curriculum a government offers?

6. The CS must agree to holding open forums where people can speak freely against CS policy without fear of reprisal from the CS.

I believe this already exists in at least a limited respect. I agree this is a reasonable request for present-day CS.

That said: this wasn't explicitly a problem in the CS prior to 12 PA, so I'm not sure why we're comparing the severity of requests made to a present-day CS to those made by a past-day CS.

HWalsh wrote:Recognize other kingdoms on their continent? That's harsh and severe?

Depends on the kingdoms. Should the CS recognize the legitimacy of the Vampire Kingdoms? What about Soul Harvest?

You can certainly argue the merits of your kingdoms by sending diplomats to CS leadership, and I agree that this should not be punished (and I see no indication that it IS) but that doesn't make the requests more reasonable.

There's a big difference between making requests for mutual safety (ie stop summoning demons that often go wild and kill people) and making requests to be recognized as a legitimate form of government.

eliakon wrote:seriously... asking magical communities to give up magic and associating with magical beings? Seriously?

The CS didn't ask Nostrous to ban magic in the FoM, they asked them to regulate it better and stop summoning.

Which is pretty reasonable considering that summoning is usually a form of slavery which breeds angry creatures who go wild and kill people.

Asking not to associate with Demons/Elementals seems pretty reasonable to me. Even the Warlocks who treat Elementals fairly can sometimes have problems with not giving clear orders. Warlocks appear to be common in present-day FoM but it's unclear how common they were in 1 PA.

On the issue of dragons, remember that the CS had a HUGE shapeshifter problem, asking to avoid dragon interactions is pretty reasonable until better ways of telling who is a dragon are ascertained.

The most controversial request the CS leaders made to Nostrous was asking them not to associate with "aliens". That's not a reasonable expectation when aliens are everywhere. The CS itself had a 6% non-human population which is sort of implied to be D-Bees (not explicitly stated, was vague) and I imagine their law enforcement (like the Chi-Town magical division) probably had to associate in some way to keep the peace.

Freemage wrote:The other three are arbitrary, resulting from the CS' ignorance, bigotry and fear of all non-human, non-subjugated life-forms.

Elementals ARE subjugated though, they'd rather just teleport back to their own dimension except when enslaved by a Shifter or compelled by a Warlock's friendship. Summoning in general is not free association and creates problems.

Fear of dragons isn't ignorant. Most are shapeshifters and have magic and psychic abilities to sway minds. The adults are godlike. Requesting non-interaction with them until better screens are in place is very reasonable.

The "aliens" part is the only thing I would agree with you on.

Freemage wrote:2: Ditto.
3: Again.
4: And yet again.

I only agree on "aliens". Elementals certainly have no use for citizenship, and Dragons don't really need that. There's plenty of wild uninhabited lands for dragons to roost in without needing to live near humans.

Freemage wrote:5: This one is flat-out absurd. It's an attempt at economic bullying. And, for a society that is not technologically as developed as the CS, it's a blatant effort at putting the FoM on a permanent disadvantage.

It isn't a disadvantage, the CS entirely avoids interdimensional trade so encouraging a potential ally to decrease it is very reasonable. The things in other dimensions are dangerous unknowns. Think for example, of how the Naruni and Splugorth both employ slaves to produce their things. Or how Aehriman is selling demonic power armor which changes its user into a demon. Is it right for the FoM to support that?

Asking to take a step back from free interdimensional trade and maybe rexamine it before dipping your toe into it isn't unreasonable.

Freemage wrote:6&7 are both vague enough that we can't really address them. "Stronger laws on personal freedoms" could mean stronger laws protecting them (such as a ban on using magical enslavement of sentient beings) or it could mean stronger restrictions on freedom of expression and association. The former is a reasonable suggestion; the latter deserves nothing but contempt and derision, especially coming from a foreign power (see, for instance, the efforts of Islamists* to get the West to crack down on 'religiously offensive' materials, such as the Danish political cartoon debacle from several years ago).

I agree with you that 6 and 7 are pretty vague, without knowing more details about the request it is hard to evaluate how reasonable or unreasonable aspects of it were.

Assuming this is still part of the canon (the 1v34 FoM/Sedition issue makes me wonder) I would actually LOVE to have a supplement which is the 137 requests the CS leaders made to Nostrous, in their entirety. Basically a transcript of the conversation that occurred before Nostrous left.

Come to think of it... if he heard 137, would there have been enough time to listen to 1370 requests, but the 9/10 was allotted for discussing the requests, which he refused to do. I imagine that each request could have 1 page dedicated to it, so a 137 page sourcebook would be cool... but if Nostrous had stayed it could've been a 1370 page sourcebook!

This makes me wonder just how long the meeting lasted and how long it was scheduled to last... was it possibly meant to last days, with many breaks? Negotiations often do last that kind of length.

Freemage wrote:So the 'reasonable' demands were mostly centered around ensuring economic and political supremacy for the CS, and the disenfranchisement of a large swath of Federation citizens. I'd hate to see what it takes to count as an 'unreasonable' position, in that case.

Limiting interdimensional trade isn't necessarily about political supremacy, I have to disagree on that. There's a huge difference between say, trading for cheap bread and milk, and trading for bio-wizard weapons which just happen to enslave fairy folk which might instigate a Fairy Uprising.

The motivations of the CS leaders are already stated on page 10 of FoM. The leaders "wanted to insure that the Grand City was not a danger".

It doesn't say anything about wanting economic/political supremacy.

eliakon wrote:the CS is demanding that other nations enact "Stronger laws on personal freedoms". Because we all know that the CS is a paragon in that area.

The CS of 1 PA (when these requests were made, NOT demands) may very well have been. It isn't really fair to view the reasonability/hypocrisy of such a request in regard to the CS of a CENTURY later.

eliakon wrote:the rest of them? They start at utter jokes and work down to 'act of war'

Why is it a joke to request not associating with dragons, elementals or dragons?

Requesting not associating with aliens is something which I would agree doesn't seem feasible, since 'associate' is a vague term and there are aliens dropping in all over the place who you have to deal with somehow.

On that point, Nostrous could certainly have protested and actually TALKED about, instead of storming out like an infant.

Imagine if some present nation approached the United States and were all "don't talk to women at all". Even though that isn't reasonable, a US ambassador could still stay at the negotiating table and explain why talking to women is very necessary and why they can't amend their ways to include that request.

eliakon wrote:this is just the first 10? There are still another 124 more?

Not necessarily, we don't know how many it is broken into. "Please don't summon demons" and "Please don't summon elementals" can be 2 different requests, for example. We aren't actually given a numbered list, so we don't know how discretely the points were defined.

eliakon wrote:(so twelve more lists each just as long as this one) and considering what is on this one I am frankly worried what was on the other ones? I mean there are only so many 'reasonable' demands that you can put on before your demands become either "surrender to us unconditionally and become our minions" or "this is just a farce and we want you to leave but are trying to pretend its your fault so we are going to act like we are being in good faith here...so here is a list of impossible things to do so you can never actually pollute our presence xenos scum"

Xenos scum? Nostrous Dunscon was human, to the best of my knowledge.

One thing that is important to keep in mind of the CS of 1 PA + 1 week (when Nostrous arrived in Chi-Town) was page 10 of FoM says the CS was "not yet dedicated to human supremacy".

That's a VERY significant point.

Supernatural beings and creatures of magic were banned, true.

But in spite of that, the Coalition States were not human supremacist at the time.

So all this speculation about xenophobia is entirely unwarranted.

I'd bet that if any of the 6% of non-humans in the CS in 1 PA were dwarves, some of them might agree with banning creatures of magic and supernatural beings from the CS. They are kinda dangerous, and there's plenty of other places outside the CS they could go and live.

Shark_Force wrote:even the first demand isn't always that reasonable. there is a great deal of difference in how a warlock summons things as compared to shifters, for one thing.

True, but we don't know how common Warlocks were in 1 PA, or how educated the CS were about them.

Assuming the Nostrous did know something of warlocks (he was a dual-class LLW+TempWiz, Alistair was a dual-class LLW+Shifter) he could've simply explained how warlocks have a friendly non-slavery relationship with Elementals worth exploring under controlled circumstances.

That's a big part of negotiations, accepting that there can be differences in understanding between cultures and trying to reach a common understanding.

Shark_Force wrote:for another, while we in our current time think poorly of slavery... it has been a thing for far longer than it hasn't. certainly not always in the form it existed in the american south or places like haiti, but arguably, the weirdos are us people that think slavery is wrong in fact, the CS essentially practices slavery (though i don't think they had dog boys at the time in question).

I think Sedition said lone star was discovered around the early 60s and WB13 said they were created in the late 60s or something like that? Regardless of specifics it was definitely during Karl's reign as Chairman, and not during Joseph's or the pre-Joseph CS of 1-12 PA.

Shark_Force wrote:(to be clear, i still think slavery is wrong, i just can't argue that the belief in every person's right to be free is in any way typical of the human race as a whole throughout the course of our history).

An argument for 'good slavery' might be magical intelligences, like golems/mummies/zombies created via magic rituals or the Magic Warrior spell.

Shark_Force wrote:and even then, i would argue that there's a difference between summoning some sort of alien equivalent of a rat and summoning a sapient being.

[/quote]
Considering almost any summon can go wild, I still see dangers in it, even if there's less moral outrage.

Axelmania wrote:

Freemage wrote:1) forbid summoning demons/dragons/elementals/aliens
2) forbid association with above
3) deny above citizenship to grand city
4) deny above citizenship in Federation
5) avoid extra inter-dimensional trade
6) suggestion: stronger laws regarding personal freedoms
7) suggestion: stronger laws governing use of magic

Okay, gonna go through these for 'reasonableness'.


The other three are arbitrary, resulting from the CS' ignorance, bigotry and fear of all non-human, non-subjugated life-forms.

Elementals ARE subjugated though, they'd rather just teleport back to their own dimension except when enslaved by a Shifter or compelled by a Warlock's friendship. Summoning in general is not free association and creates problems.

Fear of dragons isn't ignorant. Most are shapeshifters and have magic and psychic abilities to sway minds. The adults are godlike. Requesting non-interaction with them until better screens are in place is very reasonable.

The "aliens" part is the only thing I would agree with you on.

"Fear" of dragons is reasonable. Insisting that no one, anyplace, have any dealings with them, and ostracize them from their community (likely alienating individuals who had already been granted citizenship)? Not so much.

And I love the two-step you do on Elementals there--'compelled by a Warlock's friendship' would be, "makes a voluntary alliance with". The CS has no moral standing to interfere with that. Hell, I doubt that elementals bound unwillingly would even count as 'citizens', anyway, so either that point is moot (because there are none), or it's offensive (because there are some, and they want to be there).

If the CS list had instead been phrased, "forbid the unwilling binding of sapient alien beings, including elementals", then your point might have the ability to hold water; right now, though, not so much.

Axelmania wrote:

Freemage wrote:2: Ditto.
3: Again.
4: And yet again.

I only agree on "aliens". Elementals certainly have no use for citizenship, and Dragons don't really need that. There's plenty of wild uninhabited lands for dragons to roost in without needing to live near humans.

Again, the CS has no authority or grounds to make a 'no dragons' demand. If it were saying, "Agree to hold non-human citizens to human codes of conduct", that, too, would be different. There's no reason to deliberately alienate dragons--in fact, it blatantly makes it more likely that encounters with them will be hostile.

Axelmania wrote:

Freemage wrote:5: This one is flat-out absurd. It's an attempt at economic bullying. And, for a society that is not technologically as developed as the CS, it's a blatant effort at putting the FoM on a permanent disadvantage.

It isn't a disadvantage, the CS entirely avoids interdimensional trade so encouraging a potential ally to decrease it is very reasonable. The things in other dimensions are dangerous unknowns. Think for example, of how the Naruni and Splugorth both employ slaves to produce their things. Or how Aehriman is selling demonic power armor which changes its user into a demon. Is it right for the FoM to support that?

Asking to take a step back from free interdimensional trade and maybe rexamine it before dipping your toe into it isn't unreasonable.

You just glided over that bit about 'not as technologically advanced'. It's a key aspect of this. The FoM, for the most part, has neither the industrial sector, nor the mundane technological expertise, that the CS does. Seeking to ban interdimensional trade as a whole is an attempt to lock in that advantage. Again, this is a massive infringement on the FoM's sovereignty. They get to determine whom they wish to trade with.

Again, there was a reasonable option here: "Commit to developing a mutually acceptable policy for governing interdimensional trade, particularly potential weapons of mass destruction, contaminants and other dangers to the continued safety of Earth." They didn't phrase it that way, because they weren't being reasonable. (And that bit you put in at the end is nothing more than your own add-on, not present in the canon, and further indication that you simply choose to believe the CS farts rainbows.)


(Trimmed out 6&7 discussion, where we actually agree it's impossible to know the contents of the requests.

Freemage wrote:So the 'reasonable' demands were mostly centered around ensuring economic and political supremacy for the CS, and the disenfranchisement of a large swath of Federation citizens. I'd hate to see what it takes to count as an 'unreasonable' position, in that case.

Limiting interdimensional trade isn't necessarily about political supremacy, I have to disagree on that. There's a huge difference between say, trading for cheap bread and milk, and trading for bio-wizard weapons which just happen to enslave fairy folk which might instigate a Fairy Uprising.

The motivations of the CS leaders are already stated on page 10 of FoM. The leaders "wanted to insure that the Grand City was not a danger".

It doesn't say anything about wanting economic/political supremacy.

Again, there's no other way that that would play out as a practical matter. The FoM would be permanently hobbled economically by a restriction on trade, would have to displace some of its most prominent citizens (in a fashion guaranteed to generate internal conflict and hostilities), and otherwise left in a second-class status to the CS. If this was not the intent of the original drafters of that document, then they were so grotesquely incompetent at statecraft that they have no business managing the supply closet, let alone an actual government.

Two Choices:

1: The CS is grotesquely incompetent and ignorant, and thus not to be trusted.
2: The CS knew exactly what they were asking for, and thus their demands were not reasonable.

(BTW, I reiterate that Dunscon's response to this was, if anything, more unreasonable than the original demands. But it's not a case of him just blowing off perfectly plausible requests, politely phrased.)

Freemage wrote:"Fear" of dragons is reasonable. Insisting that no one, anyplace, have any dealings with them, and ostracize them from their community (likely alienating individuals who had already been granted citizenship)? Not so much.

Alienating a dangerous citizen doesn't seem unreasonable. If doing so makes them want to attack you then they were dangerous to begin with.

Keep in mind that Chi-Town eventually did this to its own magical division, and they turned out to be great allies (the Vanguard) so they're not hypocrites in this respect.

Whatever problems that Nostrous had with the request, it was something worth discussing further (explaining his objections) and not storming out.

Freemage wrote:And I love the two-step you do on Elementals there--'compelled by a Warlock's friendship' would be, "makes a voluntary alliance with".

Except that Elementals get mad if you keep them more than a couple days and eventually will kill you if not set free, so they obviously don't like it here much.

Freemage wrote:The CS has no moral standing to interfere with that.

Except for the "fetch me a pail of water, Earth Elemental" situations leading to them taking direct paths through orphanages, which Elementals are known for because they can't understand the value of life of non-Warlocks.

Freemage wrote:I doubt that elementals bound unwillingly would even count as 'citizens', anyway, so either that point is moot (because there are none), or it's offensive (because there are some, and they want to be there).

I've seen no indication that Elementals ever like being here... they for some reason like Warlocks and will listen to them for a bit, but can't tolerate it more than a few days and will try to kill the warlock.

Freemage wrote:If the CS list had instead been phrased, "forbid the unwilling binding of sapient alien beings, including elementals", then your point might have the ability to hold water; right now, though, not so much.

We actually don't know what the specific phrasing of the list of requests was.

We are given a paraphrase, and my own presentation was a paraphrasing of that, trying to separate it into more discrete points, though it can be further separated.

Freemage wrote:the CS has no authority or grounds to make a 'no dragons' demand.

They didn't. They made a "no dragons" request. Dragons make them nervous and they don't like having them next door.

North America is full of unsettled lands for dragons to roost on. Places where dragons can easily live (they don't need to eat or drink, are MDC, can probably survive extreme cold or heat... do they even need to breath?) which wouldn't inconvenience humans.

Freemage wrote:If it were saying, "Agree to hold non-human citizens to human codes of conduct", that, too, would be different. There's no reason to deliberately alienate dragons--in fact, it blatantly makes it more likely that encounters with them will be hostile.

Dragons being further away is what makes hostilities less likely.

If there are territorial dragons who don't want to back off a bit (very easily, they can run indefinitely with supernatural endurance, many can fly, most can teleport) they're an inevitable problem that needs to be dealt with.

If they did back off peacefully then that would work in their favor, showing they respect human needs.

Instead, aside from Tolkeen and Dweomer (I don't think The Three participated in the Chi-Town invasion, though I could be wrong...) the dragons of the FoM helped in trying to conquer all of North America for Nostrous Dunscon, so they proved they are not good people.

Most of the leaders' requests were only explicitly in respect to the Grand City. The only thing we explicitly know applies to all of the Federation was denial of citizenship.

So basically... you could still associate with dragons in OTHER parts of the Federation of Magic, the CS leaders just requested that they not do so in the Great City, which was in Chi-Town's backyard. They really didn't want dragons that close to Chi-Town.

The Great City was in Old Chicago. I forget where Chi-Town was... at viewtopic.php?f=44&t=137603 DSKauai something about 80 miles, Warwolf mentions New Waukegan, Braden Campbell mentions Colfax, the Beast mentions Saunemin or Cullom.

Considering dragons can teleport 5 miles at a time, once per melee I wouldn't really want to give them a safe haven only 16 teleports away. A 4-minute journey from its lair into Chi-Town is pretty scary.

Freemage wrote:You just glided over that bit about 'not as technologically advanced'. It's a key aspect of this. The FoM, for the most part, has neither the industrial sector, nor the mundane technological expertise, that the CS does.

Neither do a lot of wilderness communities.

Freemage wrote:Seeking to ban interdimensional trade as a whole is an attempt to lock in that advantage.

Which is irrelevant, because Chi-Town never had any stated purpose of banning interdimensional trade as a whole.

FoMp10 simply says "avoid trade with extra-dimensional life forms". The word "avoid" isn't an outright ban. It is a weaker word than "forbid" which the CS leaders use when talking about summoning/association with aliens.

This makes me wonder though... what is the point in discouraging trade with interdimensional life forms if you have already requested the forbidding of association with aliens?

Aren't all interdimensional life forms considered aliens in respect to Earth? Is trade not considered association?

Freemage wrote:Again, this is a massive infringement on the FoM's sovereignty. They get to determine whom they wish to trade with.

Making requests doesn't infringe on sovereignty.

If the United States for example, made a request to another nation "please don't keep homosexuality illegal, and please don't throw homosexuals off rooftops" that is not infringing on that nations' sovereignty, it is simply diplomacy. Diplomacy often involves making requests of each other which the other party may not necessarily WANT to do, but might be willing to do in exchange for other benefits.

Freemage wrote:Again, there was a reasonable option here: "Commit to developing a mutually acceptable policy for governing interdimensional trade, particularly potential weapons of mass destruction, contaminants and other dangers to the continued safety of Earth."

That could be done AFTER the trade was avoided. A full stop before beginning again is fine.

Freemage wrote:They didn't phrase it that way, because they weren't being reasonable.

We don't know how they phrased it, KS paraphrases the requests' contents.

Freemage wrote:that bit you put in at the end is nothing more than your own add-on, not present in the canon, and further indication that you simply choose to believe the CS farts rainbows.

You mean "take a step back from free interdimensional trade and maybe rexamine it before dipping your toe into it"?

Requesting that the Great City avoid trading with extra-dimensional life forms isn't necessarily a PERMANENT request, it could simply be a temporary thing to see how they respond.

Part of the problem here is that opening requests are rarely fixed in stone. Opening requests are often high-balled so that when they walk it back for a compromise, they can get the middle where they would like it.

Freemage wrote:Again, there's no other way that that would play out as a practical matter. The FoM would be permanently hobbled economically by a restriction on trade,

Avoiding inter-dimensional trade isn't necessarily a permanent restriction, and there are plenty of thriving communities "hobbled" this way.

Outlawing slavery could also hobble trade, do we gripe about that?

Freemage wrote:would have to displace some of its most prominent citizens (in a fashion guaranteed to generate internal conflict and hostilities)

Just give them citizenship in something else besides the FoM. For example, dragons can now be made citizens of the "Supernatural Residents of North America" (SRoNA) and have FoM trade with SRONA's Earth-native (non-alien) representatives, such as Sea Titans or Undead Slayers.

Freemage wrote:and otherwise left in a second-class status to the CS.

Restricting themselves to avoiding something that the CS already avoids isn't going to limit them to second-class. They can still get plenty of local-trade.

Heck, they can still trade INDIRECTLY with other dimensions, just do it through an intermediary party. IE don't trade with the Uteni, trade with Robot Control's humans, if you want Naruni stuff.

Freemage wrote:it's not a case of him just blowing off perfectly plausible requests, politely phrased.

We don't know how politely they were phrased since all we saw was paraphrase.

All were plausible, it is plausible to vote (assuming FoM even does that) to rescind citizenship of demons and dragons, and to stop associating with them.

A dragon living in the Great City prior to a bunch of yahoos meeting in Rockford or Waukegan or wherever they were at at that point and deciding they don't like the neighbors would be perfectly justified in telling the yahoos to stick it up their backsides; and the leader of the territory that the Great City was in would be equally justified in telling the yahoos to blow it out their ears.

Telling a nation to disenfranchise some portion of its citizenry is, in fact, a willful and deliberate insult to the leadership, and a blatantly hostile tactic to those citizens themselves. Again, if you say that wasn't their intent, then fine, you've acknowledged the grotesque incompetence of the CS leadership.

"Except for two of the largest groups of dragons we know about, dragons helped Dunscom" doesn't actually help your position as much as you think it does. Rather, it supports the notion that dragons are people, good and bad alike, just like humans.

As for the four-minute journey:

1: This assumes that Chi-Town is on a Ley Line, since that's how the teleportation works, doesn't it? Otherwise, the dragon would have to fly through hostile airspace from wherever the closest ley line is.
2: Even assuming there's one relatively close, would Nostrous have been justified in telling the CS he expected them to mothball their jets? Many of them could make the reverse trip (80 miles at the speed of sound) in well under ten minutes. Scary!

The point is that the reasonable action is to lay out terms of mutual respect of one another's territories and borders, first. It would've been fine to say that the FoM is responsible for the actions of dragons living in their territory. That puts the onus for ensuring good behavior on the leader of the nation where they are citizens. The CS never took that approach, instead dictating internal policy to a foreign power.

On "Avoiding trade with other dimensions", I think you and I are making different assumptions here, which is unsurprising. You're reading it as, "avoid, if it's not too inconvenient"--ie, a softer request. I'm reading it as, "avoid it, even accidentally". In other words, my reading is that they were seeking the FoM to explicitly NOT do the workaround, intermediate party approach you suggest. ("Avoid goods made with slave labor", for instance, would mean that the signatory not only doesn't buy directly from the nation engaged in slavery, but also that you don't go to their neighbor and buy slave-produced products through that neighbor's markets.)

That also addresses your point about why they would have the avoid clause in there at all--you cut off direct contact, AND you avoid trading indirectly in alien goods. Contextually, I think this is the strongest interpretation, with the usual caveats about Palladium writing.

Regardless: The single greatest resource the FoM had was their ability to access other dimensions for trade. Telling them to even trim it back with nothing more than "you can trade with us, instead, and we'll plop an embassy in your city, too" isn't remotely reasonable.

Freemage wrote:A dragon living in the Great City prior to a bunch of yahoos meeting in Rockford or Waukegan or wherever they were at at that point and deciding they don't like the neighbors would be perfectly justified in telling the yahoos to stick it up their backsides;

Not really, dragons are extradimensional invaders, they have no valid claim to the land.

FoMp9 (left col) specifies the three "First Magic Kingdoms" of Lazlo/Tolkeen/FoM were:

"already well established and growing for generations before the formation of the Coalition States in One P.A."

Which I find a bit confusing since... I thought Tolkeen was part of the FoM prior to leaving somewhere between 5PA and 12PA, so why would they be counted separately?

Right col might clarify this...

Even Tolkeen, an independent kingdom of good repute, became a member of the Federation.

So the way it appears is that FoM/Tolkeen were separate kingdoms but Tolkeen joined the FoM, unifying the kingdoms, sometime after it had already existed for generations but prior to OneP.A.

That said, while the CS was formed generations after these towns, Chi-Town explicitly predates the Great City:

it placed the city within one hundred miles of the other great human power growing in that part of the world - Chi Town

Freemage wrote:and the leader of the territory that the Great City was in would be equally justified in telling the yahoos to blow it out their ears.

Rudeness isn't really justified, no. The CS leaders made requests and Nostrous could have refused them POLITELY.

Freemage wrote:Telling a nation to disenfranchise some portion of its citizenry is, in fact, a willful and deliberate insult to the leadership,

I don't agree with that.

For example: when women attained suffrage this halved the voting influence of men, disenfranchizing them 50%. Was that an insult to the leadership?

Turkey apparently raised the voting age from 18 to 22 in 1934, and in 2007 it appears that Iran raised the voting age from 15 to 18 according to http://www.iranfocus.com/en/index.php?v ... le&id=9841

This disenfranchised 15/16/17 year olds of their right to vote for 1-3 years. Was THIS an insult to the leadership?

Freemage wrote:a blatantly hostile tactic to those citizens themselves.

Sometimes actions done for the protection of some people remove freedoms from others. Outlawing the eating of delicious humans, for example. This isn't necessarily HOSTILE, to be de-prioritized.

Freemage wrote:"Except for two of the largest groups of dragons we know about, dragons helped Dunscom" doesn't actually help your position as much as you think it does.

Mispelling his name certainly wouldn't help my case, had I actually done that as the quotes imply.

I don't recall when Freehold was founded, or how many dragons were there in 1 PA (does SoT clarify that somewhere? All I know is it was a dragon stronghold in 110 PA, 109 years later) or how many Dragons there were/are in Lazlo compared to the Federation of Magic.

Perhaps you can provide that information?

~105 Dweomer had roughly 800 hatchlings 200 adults (pg 17) and City of Brass had roughly 160 hatchlings 50 adults. I'm not sure how many are in other cities in FoM. With just the 2 largest that gives 960 hatchlings 250 adults, for a total of 1210 dragons.

Where are we told of Lazlo's dragon population? I know there's Plato, so that's 1 to start.

Freemage wrote:Rather, it supports the notion that dragons are people, good and bad alike, just like humans.

People who can shapeshift, are MDC, heal in minutes, teleport, fly, breathe fire, etc.

This is about the danger mega-powerful beings pose to weaker beings as much a it is assumptions about morality.

Freemage wrote:As for the four-minute journey:

1: This assumes that Chi-Town is on a Ley Line, since that's how the teleportation works, doesn't it? Otherwise, the dragon would have to fly through hostile airspace from wherever the closest ley line is.

RMB 100 mentions "Only a mature dragon can perform a dimensional teleport without using a ley line nexus." The basic non-dimensional teleport isn't mentioned as requiring a ley line, no.

Freemage wrote:2: Even assuming there's one relatively close, would Nostrous have been justified in telling the CS he expected them to mothball their jets? Many of them could make the reverse trip (80 miles at the speed of sound) in well under ten minutes. Scary!

Jets don't provide the same espionage problems as teleporting superhealing MDC psychic shapechangers.

Freemage wrote:The point is that the reasonable action is to lay out terms of mutual respect of one another's territories and borders, first. It would've been fine to say that the FoM is responsible for the actions of dragons living in their territory.

Think about how difficult it would be for the CS to prove that the dragon lives in their territory.

Freemage wrote:On "Avoiding trade with other dimensions", I think you and I are making different assumptions here, which is unsurprising. You're reading it as, "avoid, if it's not too inconvenient"--ie, a softer request. I'm reading it as, "avoid it, even accidentally". In other words, my reading is that they were seeking the FoM to explicitly NOT do the workaround, intermediate party approach you suggest. ("Avoid goods made with slave labor", for instance, would mean that the signatory not only doesn't buy directly from the nation engaged in slavery, but also that you don't go to their neighbor and buy slave-produced products through that neighbor's markets.)

"Goods" and "Trade" aren't the same things. It doesn't say "avoid wares from other dimensions" it explicitly talks about trading with extra-dimensional beings.

You can't trade locally-grown beef with an Uteni, but you can trade Naruni cartridges with an Uteni's local human friend.

Freemage wrote:That also addresses your point about why they would have the avoid clause in there at all--you cut off direct contact, AND you avoid trading indirectly in alien goods. Contextually, I think this is the strongest interpretation, with the usual caveats about Palladium writing.

I can only take whatever KS wrote.

Freemage wrote:Regardless: The single greatest resource the FoM had was their ability to access other dimensions for trade. Telling them to even trim it back with nothing more than "you can trade with us, instead, and we'll plop an embassy in your city, too" isn't remotely reasonable.

Where is this defined as the FoM's greatest resource?

Dimensional Portal is an expensive spell and came with the problem of letting Poltergeists in all (later amended to most of) the time. It's cheaper to simply bring a mage to cast Bread and Milk than to open a portal and bring bread and milk in from another dimension, for example.

I'm done discussing the CS with anyone who tries mental gymnastics to always put them in the most positive light. Anyone who laughably refers to any non human as an invader. I recommend others do the same. Just ignore them, it's not worth trying to have rational discussions with them.

HWalsh wrote:I'm done discussing the CS with anyone who tries mental gymnastics to always put them in the most positive light. Anyone who laughably refers to any non human as an invader. I recommend others do the same. Just ignore them, it's not worth trying to have rational discussions with them.

Personally, I've always seen Axel as doing that to try and serve as a counter to those who use mental gymnastics to always paint the CS and its leaders in the most negative light. You know, like, oh, just to grab a random example, people who would claim that since the Object Read power exists Karl Prosek either had to have known that his wife was alive (despite canon stating that he didn't) or had to have been so cold that he just never bothered investigating because the propaganda was better if she died (despite canon stating that he was devastated by the loss of his wife and teenage son).

I am an optimist, but I do not limit myself to the most positive light. Here is some criticism guys:

1) asking FoM not to associate with aliens wasn't realistic since aliens were present in Illinois and association is useful in peacemaking.
2) Joseph Prosek's genocide into the magic zone was unfortunately excessive and probably hurt innocents who did not support the invasion of Chi-Town. Nostrous only had ~50% of the FoM's support and the FoM was not Democratic like the CS, the common people were weaklings subject to the will of the strong.
3) when Joseph was killed, it is unclear if the CS tried to explain their investigations to the Tolkeen forces who confronted them in Minnesota. Doing so could have led to a cooperative investigation. They may have been negligent in diplomatic overture. That said, the same applies to Tolkeen, we don't know if they asked or would listen to an explanation for the raids of 70 PA.

.

Now, one point I will add about the potentially disenfranchised dragon citizens...

"To not allow such beings to become citizens" isn't actually about removing citizenship from dragons who are already citizens, but to stop letting non a citizen dragons gain citizenship.

This distinction is worth acknowledging. For example there is a huge difference between "strip X group of citizenship" and "don't let X group gain citizenship." Just as there is a difference between impeaching a president in his third term vs not allowing a 2-timer to be on the ballot a 3rd time.

dreicunan wrote:

HWalsh wrote:I'm done discussing the CS with anyone who tries mental gymnastics to always put them in the most positive light. Anyone who laughably refers to any non human as an invader. I recommend others do the same. Just ignore them, it's not worth trying to have rational discussions with them.

Personally, I've always seen Axel as doing that to try and serve as a counter to those who use mental gymnastics to always paint the CS and its leaders in the most negative light. You know, like, oh, just to grab a random example, people who would claim that since the Object Read power exists Karl Prosek either had to have known that his wife was alive (despite canon stating that he didn't) or had to have been so cold that he just never bothered investigating because the propaganda was better if she died (despite canon stating that he was devastated by the loss of his wife and teenage son).

People don't have to use mental gymnastics to paint the CS in the worst possible light, they are canonically the evil Nazi empire whose stated goal and actions have been the complete genocide of all non-humans and magic-users and conquest of the entire planet. Guilty of countless acts of mass murder and genocide against innocents (with their latest and most ambitious effort to date the war against a peaceful, non-hostile neighboring empire with the goal of genocide against its population) the only mental gymnastics have been from people trying to insist that the CS in spite of everything in the books that says otherwise are decent, wonderful people who've never killed anyone that didn't deserve it (which is certainly one of the main gymnastics we see).

The CS (leadership) are definitely bad guys.
No mental gymnastics there.

Same with The (True) Federation of Magic.
Same with Tolkeen (by the time of the siege).

From my point of view, it seems like people go back and forth holding up their personal bad guy of choice, pretending that they're a good guy simply because there are other bad guys in the setting.
But they're all bad guys, even if they sometimes do good things.
That's one thing that has always drawn me to Rifts: the moral quandaries and question.

For example: when women attained suffrage this halved the voting influence of men, disenfranchizing them 50%. Was that an insult to the leadership?

With this line, I'm done, for two reasons.

1: Expanding the franchise to include others does not "disenfranchise" those who are currently empowered as full citizens. If men had lost the right to vote, that would be disenfranchisement.

2: The entire question is a non sequitur, anyway, since it's not an example of a foreign power dictating terms of internal policy before even beginning the process of opening diplomatic relations (ie, establishing basic trade and ambassadorial ties). The question would have to be, "If Saudi Arabia 'requested' that the U.S. strip women of the right to vote, would that be an insult to the U.S. government?" I think I'd have to answer that question yes.

So, yeah, with this sort of bad-faith argument going on, I'm done.

It irritates me to see people treat Rifts Earth (or actual Earth, honestly) as if nations are all 3rd graders at recess, and everyone gets a turn playing kickball. You can't leave out little Jimmy, even though he sucks and runs around the bases the wrong way. Everyone gets an ice cream cone at the end.

Of course nations make unfair demands on one another. That's the nature of international relations. Why do you think the US gets to have a million ICBMs, but we tell little poor Iran that they can't have any? Is that fair? Fair doesn't exist when nations become involved. "Fairness" and "rights" only exist when you have a government watching over all involved parties to make sure everyone gets a turn. We're talking about classic Thomas Hobbes "Leviathan" here. In the state of nature, you have only power and naked self interest.

Judging the CS for issuing demands on the original FoM is dumb because you're talking about competing nation states. Of course they're going to issue demands on one another. Modern nations do it *all the time*, and we aren't in a post-apocalyptic hell-world. This is no different than the 1960s when the USSR was telling the US not to be mean to black people, and the US was telling the USSR to quit starving its own people to death.

Eagle wrote:It irritates me to see people treat Rifts Earth (or actual Earth, honestly) as if nations are all 3rd graders at recess, and everyone gets a turn playing kickball. You can't leave out little Jimmy, even though he sucks and runs around the bases the wrong way. Everyone gets an ice cream cone at the end.

Of course nations make unfair demands on one another. That's the nature of international relations. Why do you think the US gets to have a million ICBMs, but we tell little poor Iran that they can't have any? Is that fair? Fair doesn't exist when nations become involved. "Fairness" and "rights" only exist when you have a government watching over all involved parties to make sure everyone gets a turn. We're talking about classic Thomas Hobbes "Leviathan" here. In the state of nature, you have only power and naked self interest.

Judging the CS for issuing demands on the original FoM is dumb because you're talking about competing nation states. Of course they're going to issue demands on one another. Modern nations do it *all the time*, and we aren't in a post-apocalyptic hell-world. This is no different than the 1960s when the USSR was telling the US not to be mean to black people, and the US was telling the USSR to quit starving its own people to death.

Not a bad view of things.

Nightmask wrote:

dreicunan wrote:

HWalsh wrote:I'm done discussing the CS with anyone who tries mental gymnastics to always put them in the most positive light. Anyone who laughably refers to any non human as an invader. I recommend others do the same. Just ignore them, it's not worth trying to have rational discussions with them.

Personally, I've always seen Axel as doing that to try and serve as a counter to those who use mental gymnastics to always paint the CS and its leaders in the most negative light. You know, like, oh, just to grab a random example, people who would claim that since the Object Read power exists Karl Prosek either had to have known that his wife was alive (despite canon stating that he didn't) or had to have been so cold that he just never bothered investigating because the propaganda was better if she died (despite canon stating that he was devastated by the loss of his wife and teenage son).

People don't have to use mental gymnastics to paint the CS in the worst possible light, they are canonically the evil Nazi empire whose stated goal and actions have been the complete genocide of all non-humans and magic-users and conquest of the entire planet. Guilty of countless acts of mass murder and genocide against innocents (with their latest and most ambitious effort to date the war against a peaceful, non-hostile neighboring empire with the goal of genocide against its population) the only mental gymnastics have been from people trying to insist that the CS in spite of everything in the books that says otherwise are decent, wonderful people who've never killed anyone that didn't deserve it (which is certainly one of the main gymnastics we see).

Go ahead and cite the CANON source for your assertion that they are CANONICALLY the evil Nazi empire.

Also, you just engaged in mental gymnastics to paint Tolkeen as peaceful and non-hostile when Tolkeen CANONICALLY was gearing up for a fight ever since Creed took over the reins of the Kingdom. Tolkeen's government was most definitely hostile to the CS as a matter of policy. They weren't aggressively invading when they were attacked, but they were aggressively preparing to "teach the Coalition the meaning of fear" (Sedition, p. 102-103).

Creed wanted to turn the forces of Tolkeen into a military force capable of "meeting the Coalition head on in battle, and then it would be their turn to suffer, JUST AS THE SORCERERS OF THIS LAND HAD SUFFERED UNDER THE COALITION BOOT FOR SO LONG." [Sedition page 103, italics original, all caps added for emphasis]. That line, right there, gives the lie to any idea that Tolkeen's leadership was merely preparing to defend their homeland. They wanted to make THE COALITION suffer JUST AS the Coalition had done to sorcerers, and that would necessarily mean incursions into Coalition territory.

As others have said, most recently Killer Cyborg, "they're all bad guys, even if they sometimes do good things." (which is a great way of putting it!)

Eagle wrote:It irritates me to see people treat Rifts Earth (or actual Earth, honestly) as if nations are all 3rd graders at recess, and everyone gets a turn playing kickball. You can't leave out little Jimmy, even though he sucks and runs around the bases the wrong way. Everyone gets an ice cream cone at the end.

Of course nations make unfair demands on one another. That's the nature of international relations. Why do you think the US gets to have a million ICBMs, but we tell little poor Iran that they can't have any? Is that fair? Fair doesn't exist when nations become involved. "Fairness" and "rights" only exist when you have a government watching over all involved parties to make sure everyone gets a turn. We're talking about classic Thomas Hobbes "Leviathan" here. In the state of nature, you have only power and naked self interest.

Judging the CS for issuing demands on the original FoM is dumb because you're talking about competing nation states. Of course they're going to issue demands on one another. Modern nations do it *all the time*, and we aren't in a post-apocalyptic hell-world. This is no different than the 1960s when the USSR was telling the US not to be mean to black people, and the US was telling the USSR to quit starving its own people to death.

But those demands happen in a specific context--namely, where some basis for diplomacy already exists. Also, note that the specific exchanges you discussed in the 1960s were between very hostile states, and even then they were not part of formal requests; the USSR didn't make "treat minority populations better" a criteria for nuclear arms talks, and the US didn't make "stop starving your people" a prerequisite, either.

And in real-world, real-time politics, your analysis is correct; it's about power and leverage and realpolitik. But that's not the basis for this forum (that would be an in-character forum). What we're discussing from this angle is more of the outsider's view--the historian or the journalist. There's room for debate there, of course. But it is totally within that purview to include things like fairness and rationality, if only to note how something went wrong, or 'how we got the current situation'.

My contention is that the CS' list to the FoM was one of two things:

1: A deliberately crafted diplomatic insult, meant to cow the FoM into submission (or at least, to test if they could do so).
2: An example of blundering statecraft that indicates the CS leadership at the time was utterly inept.

I'm going to set aside the usual Nazi comparisons, here--the CS at this point in history is acting far more like the Kaiser's Germany pre-WWI. Feeling the rush of power from new strength, they're tossing around a host of diplomatic pressures to a neighbor they do not respect. They utterly fail to anticipate the fact that the foreign nation they're seeking to humiliate has both powerful friends and unexpected resources of its own, and thus tossing an entire continent into a war that's going to leave scars across the countryside for most of the forseeable future, and which will lead directly into greater and more terrifying conflicts as time progresses. That they emerged from the conflict in question better than Germany did in WWI is largely a result of the fact that there was no American analogue; it's likely that without that, the Great War would've been far more of a stalemate, with both sides eventually agreeing to armistice, but without the harsh victor's terms set at Versailles.

And note: The mess in the pre-World War Europe was absolutely multifaceted. It's why I've been consistent in saying that Dunscon's escalation from 'bad diplomacy' to 'outright war' was ALSO not justified.

dreicunan wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

dreicunan wrote:

HWalsh wrote:I'm done discussing the CS with anyone who tries mental gymnastics to always put them in the most positive light. Anyone who laughably refers to any non human as an invader. I recommend others do the same. Just ignore them, it's not worth trying to have rational discussions with them.

Personally, I've always seen Axel as doing that to try and serve as a counter to those who use mental gymnastics to always paint the CS and its leaders in the most negative light. You know, like, oh, just to grab a random example, people who would claim that since the Object Read power exists Karl Prosek either had to have known that his wife was alive (despite canon stating that he didn't) or had to have been so cold that he just never bothered investigating because the propaganda was better if she died (despite canon stating that he was devastated by the loss of his wife and teenage son).

People don't have to use mental gymnastics to paint the CS in the worst possible light, they are canonically the evil Nazi empire whose stated goal and actions have been the complete genocide of all non-humans and magic-users and conquest of the entire planet. Guilty of countless acts of mass murder and genocide against innocents (with their latest and most ambitious effort to date the war against a peaceful, non-hostile neighboring empire with the goal of genocide against its population) the only mental gymnastics have been from people trying to insist that the CS in spite of everything in the books that says otherwise are decent, wonderful people who've never killed anyone that didn't deserve it (which is certainly one of the main gymnastics we see).

Go ahead and cite the CANON source for your assertion that they are CANONICALLY the evil Nazi empire.

Also, you just engaged in mental gymnastics to paint Tolkeen as peaceful and non-hostile when Tolkeen CANONICALLY was gearing up for a fight ever since Creed took over the reins of the Kingdom. Tolkeen's government was most definitely hostile to the CS as a matter of policy. They weren't aggressively invading when they were attacked, but they were aggressively preparing to "teach the Coalition the meaning of fear" (Sedition, p. 102-103).

Creed wanted to turn the forces of Tolkeen into a military force capable of "meeting the Coalition head on in battle, and then it would be their turn to suffer, JUST AS THE SORCERERS OF THIS LAND HAD SUFFERED UNDER THE COALITION BOOT FOR SO LONG." [Sedition page 103, italics original, all caps added for emphasis]. That line, right there, gives the lie to any idea that Tolkeen's leadership was merely preparing to defend their homeland. They wanted to make THE COALITION suffer JUST AS the Coalition had done to sorcerers, and that would necessarily mean incursions into Coalition territory.

As others have said, most recently Killer Cyborg, "they're all bad guys, even if they sometimes do good things." (which is a great way of putting it!)

Time to join HWalsh it appears, since you CLEARLY choose to ignore all the material in the books that explicitly states that the CS are basically an evil Nazi Empire. All the material that people have repeatedly posted here and in other such threads both in quoting the books AND listing the page numbers you and the rest of the mental gymnasts ignore. That's also why you're ignoring the fact that Creed's desires are justified; seriously you think the man's supposed to NOT want his people to have enough military firepower to protect it from the genocidal evil empire that's made it clear for decades that it intends to come over and murder them all? OF COURSE he had every right to build up their military to protect his people against the evil that is the CS, to claim he had no right to do so is absurd and also hypocritical when defending the CS for its massive military build-up that it promptly put to work launching a genocidal war against a PEACEFUL nation (because if you're going to claim building up a military isn't peaceful then you're admitting that the CS is the least peaceful nation around).

Are people still ignoring the repeated canon statements that Tolkeen was just as bad as the CS?

I think that the folks that defend the Coalition's actions and motivations lose their way when they try to absolve their crimes because of circumstances or paint the CS as without sin. The SoT in particular is written by Mr. Siembieda to present 2 powers that are both to blame for the war. The leadership in both cases made poor, but likely the only viable choices they could make. The Proseks were using the fear of "Others" to maintain power, and Tolkeen was the closest. The Tolkeen leadership was too proud and lacked scruples. I am certain that if King Gravander Henchu had lived that Tolkeen may have fled or at least not gone the route that Creed had by mixing with foul supernatural creatures. I'm still not sure why at least a portion of the Tolkeen elites did not prepare for the destruction of their home by secretly building a new town somewhere else, but I digress.

Right!!??
I get staying to fight, but there should also have been a clear backup plan.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are people still ignoring the repeated canon statements that Tolkeen was just as bad as the CS?

"just as bad as the CS" is complete and utter nonsense.

tolkeen was bad in some ways. but not "as bad as the CS". tolkeen tried to avoid the war. they didn't try to avoid the war at all costs, but they did try to avoid it. the CS went out of their way to make sure that the war would happen.

tolkeen, if left alone, would have probably done more or less nothing. they had no plans to invade anyone. they had no lists of people they intended to murder just because they could do it. the CS, if left alone, would murder millions of people just for existing and invade everyone around them that they can't subjugate by other means.

tolkeen had the means to attack civilians and deliberately chose to not use those means. the CS had the means to attack civilians and implemented them very early in the war.

the CS has a decades-long history of murder, slavery, bullying, and hatred. tolkeen has a decades-long history of being angry about what the CS is doing to them, and resulting hatred.

many of those on tolkeen's side of the war when they saw some of the bad things tolkeen were doing rejected it and actually left the fight because they were so disappointed about the way they were deceived. how many people abandoned the CS after discovering the concentration camps?

bad? sure, tolkeen's leadership were pretty bad people (or at least, some of them were). but "just as bad as the CS"? nope. maybe someday they might've become just as bad (particularly since they had started hanging out with demons, which i can't imagine were a good influence), but no, they weren't "just as bad". and like i said earlier, i ignore obviously wrong information no matter how much the writers insist it isn't obviously wrong.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are people still ignoring the repeated canon statements that Tolkeen was just as bad as the CS?

I'm curious.
Where are these canon statements found exactly?
And what, exactly do they say?

Nightmask wrote:

dreicunan wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

dreicunan wrote:

HWalsh wrote:I'm done discussing the CS with anyone who tries mental gymnastics to always put them in the most positive light. Anyone who laughably refers to any non human as an invader. I recommend others do the same. Just ignore them, it's not worth trying to have rational discussions with them.

Personally, I've always seen Axel as doing that to try and serve as a counter to those who use mental gymnastics to always paint the CS and its leaders in the most negative light. You know, like, oh, just to grab a random example, people who would claim that since the Object Read power exists Karl Prosek either had to have known that his wife was alive (despite canon stating that he didn't) or had to have been so cold that he just never bothered investigating because the propaganda was better if she died (despite canon stating that he was devastated by the loss of his wife and teenage son).

People don't have to use mental gymnastics to paint the CS in the worst possible light, they are canonically the evil Nazi empire whose stated goal and actions have been the complete genocide of all non-humans and magic-users and conquest of the entire planet. Guilty of countless acts of mass murder and genocide against innocents (with their latest and most ambitious effort to date the war against a peaceful, non-hostile neighboring empire with the goal of genocide against its population) the only mental gymnastics have been from people trying to insist that the CS in spite of everything in the books that says otherwise are decent, wonderful people who've never killed anyone that didn't deserve it (which is certainly one of the main gymnastics we see).

Go ahead and cite the CANON source for your assertion that they are CANONICALLY the evil Nazi empire.

Also, you just engaged in mental gymnastics to paint Tolkeen as peaceful and non-hostile when Tolkeen CANONICALLY was gearing up for a fight ever since Creed took over the reins of the Kingdom. Tolkeen's government was most definitely hostile to the CS as a matter of policy. They weren't aggressively invading when they were attacked, but they were aggressively preparing to "teach the Coalition the meaning of fear" (Sedition, p. 102-103).

Creed wanted to turn the forces of Tolkeen into a military force capable of "meeting the Coalition head on in battle, and then it would be their turn to suffer, JUST AS THE SORCERERS OF THIS LAND HAD SUFFERED UNDER THE COALITION BOOT FOR SO LONG." [Sedition page 103, italics original, all caps added for emphasis]. That line, right there, gives the lie to any idea that Tolkeen's leadership was merely preparing to defend their homeland. They wanted to make THE COALITION suffer JUST AS the Coalition had done to sorcerers, and that would necessarily mean incursions into Coalition territory.

As others have said, most recently Killer Cyborg, "they're all bad guys, even if they sometimes do good things." (which is a great way of putting it!)

Time to join HWalsh it appears, since you CLEARLY choose to ignore all the material in the books that explicitly states that the CS are basically an evil Nazi Empire. All the material that people have repeatedly posted here and in other such threads both in quoting the books AND listing the page numbers you and the rest of the mental gymnasts ignore. That's also why you're ignoring the fact that Creed's desires are justified; seriously you think the man's supposed to NOT want his people to have enough military firepower to protect it from the genocidal evil empire that's made it clear for decades that it intends to come over and murder them all? OF COURSE he had every right to build up their military to protect his people against the evil that is the CS, to claim he had no right to do so is absurd and also hypocritical when defending the CS for its massive military build-up that it promptly put to work launching a genocidal war against a PEACEFUL nation (because if you're going to claim building up a military isn't peaceful then you're admitting that the CS is the least peaceful nation around).

You claimed that it was canonically the evil Nazi empire; if you meant to qualify that statement with "basically" as you did just now, then you should do that. I can understand why someone would take a statement like the fact that Prosek has consciously taken some pages from Hitler's playbook while simultaneously recognizing that he was a madman or that on page 230 of RUE Kevin S states that SOME members of the CS are "superior junior Nazis who give Humans a bad name" and reach that conclusion. Of course if only some of them are, then clearly not all of them are, and to describe the CS as a whole as "basically the evil Nazi Empire" would seem a but of an oversimplification.

And if you want to criticize people for ignoring these canon statements that you don't bother to cite but feel make it clear that the CS is basically an evil Nazi empire, then stop ignoring the canon statements that make it clear that Tolkeen was no angel either. I just cited a canon statement that make it clear that Creeds motivation was to make the CS suffer. I never said that building up a military was wrong (but thanks for a textbook example of straw-man argumentation). I cited canonical evidence that Creed was motivated by a desire for revenge and to repay the Coalition in kind. Are you actually claiming that to make the Coalition suffer the way it had made sorcerers suffer is justified? And if it were, then why isn't what the Coalition did justified?

eliakon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are people still ignoring the repeated canon statements that Tolkeen was just as bad as the CS?

I'm curious.
Where are these canon statements found exactly?
And what, exactly do they say?

Sedition page 7 "Both are so blinded by hate and a lust for revenge that they are willing to sacrifice their own people to win at 'all costs.'" That is from the introduction to the book.

Sedition page 8 "The powers at Tolkeen are as extreme as any in the vaunted halls of Chi-Town. They are as overcome with hatred and a desire for power as Emperor Prosek." That is Erin Tarn's take on it. She makes other statements of comparison to the same effect.

Shark_Force wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are people still ignoring the repeated canon statements that Tolkeen was just as bad as the CS?

"just as bad as the CS" is complete and utter nonsense.

tolkeen was bad in some ways. but not "as bad as the CS". tolkeen tried to avoid the war. they didn't try to avoid the war at all costs, but they did try to avoid it. the CS went out of their way to make sure that the war would happen.

tolkeen, if left alone, would have probably done more or less nothing. they had no plans to invade anyone. they had no lists of people they intended to murder just because they could do it. the CS, if left alone, would murder millions of people just for existing and invade everyone around them that they can't subjugate by other means.

tolkeen had the means to attack civilians and deliberately chose to not use those means. the CS had the means to attack civilians and implemented them very early in the war.

the CS has a decades-long history of murder, slavery, bullying, and hatred. tolkeen has a decades-long history of being angry about what the CS is doing to them, and resulting hatred.

many of those on tolkeen's side of the war when they saw some of the bad things tolkeen were doing rejected it and actually left the fight because they were so disappointed about the way they were deceived. how many people abandoned the CS after discovering the concentration camps?

bad? sure, tolkeen's leadership were pretty bad people (or at least, some of them were). but "just as bad as the CS"? nope. maybe someday they might've become just as bad (particularly since they had started hanging out with demons, which i can't imagine were a good influence), but no, they weren't "just as bad". and like i said earlier, i ignore obviously wrong information no matter how much the writers insist it isn't obviously wrong.

I've already cited in a prior post that Creed wanted to make the CS suffer just as the CS had made sorcerers suffer. That would involve doing more than just sitting back and defending. So the leader of Tolkeen clearly was building towards doing more than just defending territory.

dreicunan wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are people still ignoring the repeated canon statements that Tolkeen was just as bad as the CS?

"just as bad as the CS" is complete and utter nonsense.

tolkeen was bad in some ways. but not "as bad as the CS". tolkeen tried to avoid the war. they didn't try to avoid the war at all costs, but they did try to avoid it. the CS went out of their way to make sure that the war would happen.

tolkeen, if left alone, would have probably done more or less nothing. they had no plans to invade anyone. they had no lists of people they intended to murder just because they could do it. the CS, if left alone, would murder millions of people just for existing and invade everyone around them that they can't subjugate by other means.

tolkeen had the means to attack civilians and deliberately chose to not use those means. the CS had the means to attack civilians and implemented them very early in the war.

the CS has a decades-long history of murder, slavery, bullying, and hatred. tolkeen has a decades-long history of being angry about what the CS is doing to them, and resulting hatred.

many of those on tolkeen's side of the war when they saw some of the bad things tolkeen were doing rejected it and actually left the fight because they were so disappointed about the way they were deceived. how many people abandoned the CS after discovering the concentration camps?

bad? sure, tolkeen's leadership were pretty bad people (or at least, some of them were). but "just as bad as the CS"? nope. maybe someday they might've become just as bad (particularly since they had started hanging out with demons, which i can't imagine were a good influence), but no, they weren't "just as bad". and like i said earlier, i ignore obviously wrong information no matter how much the writers insist it isn't obviously wrong.

I've already cited in a prior post that Creed wanted to make the CS suffer just as the CS had made sorcerers suffer. That would involve doing more than just sitting back and defending. So the leader of Tolkeen clearly was building towards doing more than just defending territory.

i'm pretty sure "don't cause a massive drought in the CS" is a pretty ineffective method of causing the CS to suffer, as is "don't teleport expendable demon squads in on suicide missions to kill random people" and "don't ever attack the coalition states in their own territory". he may have wanted the coalition states to suffer, but he pretty clearly wasn't prepared to go anywhere near as far to accomplish that goal as the CS was; tolkeen never attempted to use the magical equivalent of a nuke on civilian targets, tolkeen never attempted to exterminate every CS citizen just for being CS citizens, and tolkeen didn't start a war immediately after increasing their own military power and thus when they had an advantage.

a rose by any other name is still a rose, no matter how much someone insists that it's a tulip. or, in this case... a less evil nation is still a less evil nation, no matter how much someone insists that they're just as bad. the physical evidence clearly contradicts the accusations made; there is no evidence that tolkeen is just as bad as the CS. there is certainly evidence that they are not very good. but they cannot possibly be just as bad as the CS if they only do some of the bad things that the CS does.

both sides are guilty of twisting their people into a weapon. both sides hate the other. both sides didn't care enough for the lives of their people to place their safety higher than hurting their enemies. in those ways, they are equally bad. but there are a lot of evil things that the CS chose to do that tolkeen chose not to do. therefore, tolkeen was not "just as bad". they may have been heading that direction. who knows, had the war started 10 years later, maybe tolkeen would have gladly kidnapped coalition citizens and put them in concentration camps. maybe they would've gladly used a magical nuke equivalent on the 'burbs of chi-town hoping to kill as many civilians as possible. maybe they would've declared a war of extermination and invaded CS territory, slaughtering everyone as they go. but at the time the war happened, they didn't do any of those things, because whatever someone might have claimed about them, they clearly were not willing to be "just as bad as the CS".

eliakon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are people still ignoring the repeated canon statements that Tolkeen was just as bad as the CS?

I'm curious.
Where are these canon statements found exactly?
And what, exactly do they say?

All good and fair questions.

I already posted this one:
CW1 page 7
Taken at face value, the Kingdom of Tolkeen is painted in a sympathetic light. They weren't looking for trouble and they are the ones being invaded by a ruthless foe. Only things are not so black and white. As our story progresses, the leaders of Tolkeen and the Coalition States will be shown to be more alike than different. Both are so blinded by hate and a lust for revenge that they are willing to sacrifice their own people to win at "all costs." Tolkeen's leaders betray the trust of their people by creating false hopes, manipulating the truth, and placing their own goals for revenge before the welfare of their people.

And I posted some bits from Erin Tarn's letter on p. 8:
I blame the destruction to come on the leaders of Tolkeen, beings who are showing themselves to be every bit as self-serving and ruthless as the Coalition States.
And
One day it dawned on me; the powers at Tolkeen are nothing more than the other edge of the same blade that is Emperor Prosek and the Coalition States.

Also....
CW1 93
King Creed has become cold, calculating and ruthless. A murky reflection of the very man he despises, Emperor Karl Prosek.

CW1 135
To paraphrase Nietzsche, "When fighting monsters, one must take care not to become one himself." This is an underlying theme throughout the Siege on Tolkeen series. They are words that participants in this war should heed, for many among the Coalition and Tolkeen forces see each other as the embodiment of evil--"monsters" to be destroyed--yet they fail to see that they too have become loathsome "monsters"--many having become cold, ruthless killing machines driven by hate and devoid of mercy or compassion.

CW1 139
Demons and other supernatural beings such as Greater Demons, Gargoyles, Brodkil, Witchlings, Black Faeries, the savage Thornhead, and the Neuron Beast are all actively being recruited.
and
Meanwhile, unwilling participants such as Elementals, Lesser Demons, and independent minded creatures are being summoned, enslaved, and forced to serve Tolkeen's forces by Shifters, Warlocks, and other powerful beings.

It's clear that by the start of the siege, Tolkeen has little to no moral high-ground.
Like the CS, their leaders are corrupt deceivers, who are whipping their witless citizens into a frenzy of misguided patriotism and hate.
Like the CS, they have no qualms about using ruthless predators and inhuman slaves.

Repeatedly, it is held up that Tolkeen has become a mirror to the CS, that they are just as self-serving, just as hate-fueled, and just as ruthless.

This doesn't mean that it's always been this way, but that's how things are at the start of the siege.

Shark_Force wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are people still ignoring the repeated canon statements that Tolkeen was just as bad as the CS?

"just as bad as the CS" is complete and utter nonsense.

Tell it to Kevin..?

tolkeen was bad in some ways. but not "as bad as the CS". tolkeen tried to avoid the war. they didn't try to avoid the war at all costs, but they did try to avoid it. the CS went out of their way to make sure that the war would happen.

Tolkeen in the past tried to avoid the war.
Tolkeen under Creed?
Not so much. He's so successfully whipped them into a blood frenzy that in the unlikely event that Creed did have a change of heart and clarity of vision to try to avert or cut short the war, the majority of the population (CW1 134) "will reject any pleas he makes, and like his leaders, crave blood and vengeance. They are too consumed by hate and battle-lust to stop and think about the future, they want to crush the CS and they want to do it now."

tolkeen, if left alone, would have probably done more or less nothing.

Sure.
But they weren't left alone, and now (as of the start of the Siege), they've become just as bad as the CS.

round them that they can't subjugate by other means.

tolkeen had the means to attack civilians and deliberately chose to not use those means.
the CS had the means to attack civilians and implemented them very early in the war.

"Just as bad" doesn't mean "identical."
The CS didn't use bio-wizardry, rune magic, or summoned slave creatures to beef themselves up for war... but that doesn't make them better than Tolkeen.

(BTW, which book/page/etc. states that Tolkeen made a deliberate decision not to attack civilians?)

the CS has a decades-long history of murder, slavery, bullying, and hatred. tolkeen has a decades-long history of being angry about what the CS is doing to them, and resulting hatred.

Yet they ended up at essentially the same place by the time the war started.

many of those on tolkeen's side of the war when they saw some of the bad things tolkeen were doing rejected it and actually left the fight because they were so disappointed about the way they were deceived. how many people abandoned the CS after discovering the concentration camps?

Don't know.
Got any numbers?

bad? sure, tolkeen's leadership were pretty bad people (or at least, some of them were). but "just as bad as the CS"? nope. maybe someday they might've become just as bad (particularly since they had started hanging out with demons, which i can't imagine were a good influence), but no, they weren't "just as bad". and like i said earlier, i ignore obviously wrong information no matter how much the writers insist it isn't obviously wrong.

That's cool. Insist what you like, but according to canon, the CS are basically Nazis, and Tolkeen was just as bad by the time the war started.
People are free to disagree with canon on either point; I'm simply pointing out what canon IS, not dictating everybody's personal opinions to them.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are people still ignoring the repeated canon statements that Tolkeen was just as bad as the CS?

I'm curious.
Where are these canon statements found exactly?
And what, exactly do they say?

All good and fair questions.

I already posted this one:
CW1 page 7
Taken at face value, the Kingdom of Tolkeen is painted in a sympathetic light. They weren't looking for trouble and they are the ones being invaded by a ruthless foe. Only things are not so black and white. As our story progresses, the leaders of Tolkeen and the Coalition States will be shown to be more alike than different. Both are so blinded by hate and a lust for revenge that they are willing to sacrifice their own people to win at "all costs." Tolkeen's leaders betray the trust of their people by creating false hopes, manipulating the truth, and placing their own goals for revenge before the welfare of their people.

And I posted some bits from Erin Tarn's letter on p. 8:
I blame the destruction to come on the leaders of Tolkeen, beings who are showing themselves to be every bit as self-serving and ruthless as the Coalition States.
And
One day it dawned on me; the powers at Tolkeen are nothing more than the other edge of the same blade that is Emperor Prosek and the Coalition States.

Also....
CW1 93
King Creed has become cold, calculating and ruthless. A murky reflection of the very man he despises, Emperor Karl Prosek.

CW1 135
To paraphrase Nietzsche, "When fighting monsters, one must take care not to become one himself." This is an underlying theme throughout the Siege on Tolkeen series. They are words that participants in this war should heed, for many among the Coalition and Tolkeen forces see each other as the embodiment of evil--"monsters" to be destroyed--yet they fail to see that they too have become loathsome "monsters"--many having become cold, ruthless killing machines driven by hate and devoid of mercy or compassion.

CW1 139
Demons and other supernatural beings such as Greater Demons, Gargoyles, Brodkil, Witchlings, Black Faeries, the savage Thornhead, and the Neuron Beast are all actively being recruited.
and
Meanwhile, unwilling participants such as Elementals, Lesser Demons, and independent minded creatures are being summoned, enslaved, and forced to serve Tolkeen's forces by Shifters, Warlocks, and other powerful beings.

It's clear that by the start of the siege, Tolkeen has little to no moral high-ground.
Like the CS, their leaders are corrupt deceivers, who are whipping their witless citizens into a frenzy of misguided patriotism and hate.
Like the CS, they have no qualms about using ruthless predators and inhuman slaves.

Repeatedly, it is held up that Tolkeen has become a mirror to the CS, that they are just as self-serving, just as hate-fueled, and just as ruthless.

This doesn't mean that it's always been this way, but that's how things are at the start of the siege.

- as noted, they were not willing to win at all costs. they retained at least some measure of morality; enough to avoid targeting civilians.
- the potential to win the fight was not a false hope. they could have. it wasn't a *good* chance. but they could have. nations have fought as bad or worse odds without the advantage of magic.
- clearly not as ruthless as the leaders of the CS. didn't target civilians, didn't target cities, didn't plan extermination, and tried to avoid war.
- didn't become monsters like the CS; many, when they saw even those bad things that their side was doing, refused to continue in the war or even fought to prevent those bad things from happening. in sufficient numbers that, unlike the few in the CS side who did the same, they weren't slaughtered on the spot, and were actually able to accomplish some good.
- they have a lot of warlocks, who don't force elementals to join the conflict against their will (and who would not have been warlocks for long if they helped an entire nation that enslaved elementals en masse); there is a difference between "force" and "ask and the elementals decided to join because they care about the warlocks". didn't make extensive use of demons from anything we can tell, apart from the daemonix, who were willing partners of their own free will. if anyone forced intelligent creatures into a fight, that would be the coalition states who were using millions of slave soldiers (the dog boys) who had no real choice whether to join at all. the fact that tolkeen recruited some bad creatures is true; the notion that they used them in any significant numbers before the sorcerer's revenge is not supported at all, given the shocked response of their own forces at the sorcerer's revenge to demons being on their side.

the typical advice is "show, don't tell", but in this case, we've got one thing shown, and a completely different thing told, which means the evidence is with the "show", not the "tell".

bad? sure. tolkeen was bad. just not as bad as the CS.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are people still ignoring the repeated canon statements that Tolkeen was just as bad as the CS?

"just as bad as the CS" is complete and utter nonsense.

Tell it to Kevin..?

tolkeen was bad in some ways. but not "as bad as the CS". tolkeen tried to avoid the war. they didn't try to avoid the war at all costs, but they did try to avoid it. the CS went out of their way to make sure that the war would happen.

Tolkeen in the past tried to avoid the war.
Tolkeen under Creed?
Not so much. He's so successfully whipped them into a blood frenzy that in the unlikely event that Creed did have a change of heart and clarity of vision to try to avert or cut short the war, the majority of the population (CW1 134) "will reject any pleas he makes, and like his leaders, crave blood and vengeance. They are too consumed by hate and battle-lust to stop and think about the future, they want to crush the CS and they want to do it now."

tolkeen, if left alone, would have probably done more or less nothing.

Sure.
But they weren't left alone, and now (as of the start of the Siege), they've become just as bad as the CS.

round them that they can't subjugate by other means.

tolkeen had the means to attack civilians and deliberately chose to not use those means.
the CS had the means to attack civilians and implemented them very early in the war.

"Just as bad" doesn't mean "identical."
The CS didn't use bio-wizardry, rune magic, or summoned slave creatures to beef themselves up for war... but that doesn't make them better than Tolkeen.

(BTW, which book/page/etc. states that Tolkeen made a deliberate decision not to attack civilians?)

the CS has a decades-long history of murder, slavery, bullying, and hatred. tolkeen has a decades-long history of being angry about what the CS is doing to them, and resulting hatred.

Yet they ended up at essentially the same place by the time the war started.

many of those on tolkeen's side of the war when they saw some of the bad things tolkeen were doing rejected it and actually left the fight because they were so disappointed about the way they were deceived. how many people abandoned the CS after discovering the concentration camps?

Don't know.
Got any numbers?

bad? sure, tolkeen's leadership were pretty bad people (or at least, some of them were). but "just as bad as the CS"? nope. maybe someday they might've become just as bad (particularly since they had started hanging out with demons, which i can't imagine were a good influence), but no, they weren't "just as bad". and like i said earlier, i ignore obviously wrong information no matter how much the writers insist it isn't obviously wrong.

That's cool. Insist what you like, but according to canon, the CS are basically Nazis, and Tolkeen was just as bad by the time the war started.
People are free to disagree with canon on either point; I'm simply pointing out what canon IS, not dictating everybody's personal opinions to them.

Again you keep saying this
Where is the CANON TEXT saying that.
Your opinion is not canon.
So I am curious where the book/page is that says that CANONICALLY they are JUST AS BAD.
Not, bad. not "just as hate-filled" but "Just as bad"
Because otherwise you are trying to pass of your opinion as canon.
Now, since you are a stickler for everyone else to have book and page citations I will assume you have them to back up your claims yes?

Nightmask wrote:People don't have to use mental gymnastics to paint the CS in the worst possible light, they are canonically the evil Nazi empire whose stated goal and actions have been the complete genocide of all non-humans and magic-users and conquest of the entire planet.

I believe you are wrong on multiple counts.

1) the CS are not canonically Nazi (national socialist). They both do have things in common with other oppresive regimes. The CS could be designated as fascist, for example. That doesn't mean all fascists are Nazis. Nazis were racist, that doesn't mean every racist group is Nazi.

2) the CS are canonically genocidal to the races of xiticix, and only 2 races in FoM. Some of the purging in the Bloody Campaign and Siege in Tolkeen was also called genocide. I have not seen you provide any evidence that the CS wants to conquer the planet for itself (it wouldn't least shars with NGR, they are bosom friends) or that they want to kill all non humans and mages. You might want to substitute "aliens" for non humans as non humans includes dairy cattle and CS loves cheese. Driving mages to live in other dimensions could be tolerable.

Nightmask wrote:Guilty of countless acts of mass murder and genocide against innocents

Any military power has killed innocents unintentionally.

Source on genocide or mass murder victims being innocent?

Nightmask wrote: the war against a peaceful, non-hostile neighboring empire with the goal of genocide against its population

Tolkeen was a hostile warmongering nation. The genocide was against the Tolkeen warhawks who chose to stay, not the innocent Minnesotans who wisely left years prior, realizing Tolkeen had poked the bear 40 years too long.

Nightmask wrote:the only mental gymnastics have been from people trying to insist that the CS in spite of everything in the books that says otherwise are decent, wonderful people who've never killed anyone that didn't deserve it (which is certainly one of the main gymnastics we see)
.

Nobody has argued that. The CS like any mass combat army will have killed some innocents. Sometimes there isn'tany way around it.

If a Tolkeen Shadow Dragon is flying around raining fire down on your troops and has a human baby tied to its neck, does that mean you shouldn't shoot it down? I'm sure the CS has had to make hard choices like that all the time due to the despicable tactics of its enemies.

Shark_Force wrote:

dreicunan wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are people still ignoring the repeated canon statements that Tolkeen was just as bad as the CS?

"just as bad as the CS" is complete and utter nonsense.

tolkeen was bad in some ways. but not "as bad as the CS". tolkeen tried to avoid the war. they didn't try to avoid the war at all costs, but they did try to avoid it. the CS went out of their way to make sure that the war would happen.

tolkeen, if left alone, would have probably done more or less nothing. they had no plans to invade anyone. they had no lists of people they intended to murder just because they could do it. the CS, if left alone, would murder millions of people just for existing and invade everyone around them that they can't subjugate by other means.

tolkeen had the means to attack civilians and deliberately chose to not use those means. the CS had the means to attack civilians and implemented them very early in the war.

the CS has a decades-long history of murder, slavery, bullying, and hatred. tolkeen has a decades-long history of being angry about what the CS is doing to them, and resulting hatred.

many of those on tolkeen's side of the war when they saw some of the bad things tolkeen were doing rejected it and actually left the fight because they were so disappointed about the way they were deceived. how many people abandoned the CS after discovering the concentration camps?

bad? sure, tolkeen's leadership were pretty bad people (or at least, some of them were). but "just as bad as the CS"? nope. maybe someday they might've become just as bad (particularly since they had started hanging out with demons, which i can't imagine were a good influence), but no, they weren't "just as bad". and like i said earlier, i ignore obviously wrong information no matter how much the writers insist it isn't obviously wrong.

I've already cited in a prior post that Creed wanted to make the CS suffer just as the CS had made sorcerers suffer. That would involve doing more than just sitting back and defending. So the leader of Tolkeen clearly was building towards doing more than just defending territory.

i'm pretty sure "don't cause a massive drought in the CS" is a pretty ineffective method of causing the CS to suffer, as is "don't teleport expendable demon squads in on suicide missions to kill random people" and "don't ever attack the coalition states in their own territory". he may have wanted the coalition states to suffer, but he pretty clearly wasn't prepared to go anywhere near as far to accomplish that goal as the CS was; tolkeen never attempted to use the magical equivalent of a nuke on civilian targets, tolkeen never attempted to exterminate every CS citizen just for being CS citizens, and tolkeen didn't start a war immediately after increasing their own military power and thus when they had an advantage.

a rose by any other name is still a rose, no matter how much someone insists that it's a tulip. or, in this case... a less evil nation is still a less evil nation, no matter how much someone insists that they're just as bad. the physical evidence clearly contradicts the accusations made; there is no evidence that tolkeen is just as bad as the CS. there is certainly evidence that they are not very good. but they cannot possibly be just as bad as the CS if they only do some of the bad things that the CS does.

both sides are guilty of twisting their people into a weapon. both sides hate the other. both sides didn't care enough for the lives of their people to place their safety higher than hurting their enemies. in those ways, they are equally bad. but there are a lot of evil things that the CS chose to do that tolkeen chose not to do. therefore, tolkeen was not "just as bad". they may have been heading that direction. who knows, had the war started 10 years later, maybe tolkeen would have gladly kidnapped coalition citizens and put them in concentration camps. maybe they would've gladly used a magical nuke equivalent on the 'burbs of chi-town hoping to kill as many civilians as possible. maybe they would've declared a war of extermination and invaded CS territory, slaughtering everyone as they go. but at the time the war happened, they didn't do any of those things, because whatever someone might have claimed about them, they clearly were not willing to be "just as bad as the CS".

Interesting take: Creed's inability to carry out his goal of making the CS suffer just as the CS had made sorcerers suffer means that he is somehow better than the CS. That is a fascinating approach. By that logic, then if you have two gentlemen who want to steal a car, but one of them fails to do so because he trips while crossing the street and causes a commotion attracting the attention of others, while the other succeeds, the failure is somehow more moral?

We do seem to treat it that way presently, doesn't attempted murder carry a lighter sentence than a successful murder? In figure the logic is that with unsuccessful attempts leniency is offered in the basis that maybe your heart wasn't in it and you self sabotaged, or might have changed your mind at the last second.

Shark_Force wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are people still ignoring the repeated canon statements that Tolkeen was just as bad as the CS?

I'm curious.
Where are these canon statements found exactly?
And what, exactly do they say?

All good and fair questions.

I already posted this one:
CW1 page 7
Taken at face value, the Kingdom of Tolkeen is painted in a sympathetic light. They weren't looking for trouble and they are the ones being invaded by a ruthless foe. Only things are not so black and white. As our story progresses, the leaders of Tolkeen and the Coalition States will be shown to be more alike than different. Both are so blinded by hate and a lust for revenge that they are willing to sacrifice their own people to win at "all costs." Tolkeen's leaders betray the trust of their people by creating false hopes, manipulating the truth, and placing their own goals for revenge before the welfare of their people.

And I posted some bits from Erin Tarn's letter on p. 8:
I blame the destruction to come on the leaders of Tolkeen, beings who are showing themselves to be every bit as self-serving and ruthless as the Coalition States.
And
One day it dawned on me; the powers at Tolkeen are nothing more than the other edge of the same blade that is Emperor Prosek and the Coalition States.

Also....
CW1 93
King Creed has become cold, calculating and ruthless. A murky reflection of the very man he despises, Emperor Karl Prosek.

CW1 135
To paraphrase Nietzsche, "When fighting monsters, one must take care not to become one himself." This is an underlying theme throughout the Siege on Tolkeen series. They are words that participants in this war should heed, for many among the Coalition and Tolkeen forces see each other as the embodiment of evil--"monsters" to be destroyed--yet they fail to see that they too have become loathsome "monsters"--many having become cold, ruthless killing machines driven by hate and devoid of mercy or compassion.

CW1 139
Demons and other supernatural beings such as Greater Demons, Gargoyles, Brodkil, Witchlings, Black Faeries, the savage Thornhead, and the Neuron Beast are all actively being recruited.
and
Meanwhile, unwilling participants such as Elementals, Lesser Demons, and independent minded creatures are being summoned, enslaved, and forced to serve Tolkeen's forces by Shifters, Warlocks, and other powerful beings.

It's clear that by the start of the siege, Tolkeen has little to no moral high-ground.
Like the CS, their leaders are corrupt deceivers, who are whipping their witless citizens into a frenzy of misguided patriotism and hate.
Like the CS, they have no qualms about using ruthless predators and inhuman slaves.

Repeatedly, it is held up that Tolkeen has become a mirror to the CS, that they are just as self-serving, just as hate-fueled, and just as ruthless.

This doesn't mean that it's always been this way, but that's how things are at the start of the siege.

- as noted, they were not willing to win at all costs. they retained at least some measure of morality; enough to avoid targeting civilians.

Can you quote that passage for me, or direct me to it?

- the potential to win the fight was not a false hope. they could have. it wasn't a *good* chance. but they could have. nations have fought as bad or worse odds without the advantage of magic.

Not according to canon.

- clearly not as ruthless as the leaders of the CS. didn't target civilians, didn't target cities, didn't plan extermination, and tried to avoid war.

They weren't the invaders. It's a lot harder to target cities when you're playing defense.

When you say "tried to avoid the war," I don't know what you're talking about. Building up an army and whipping it into a frenzy isn't "trying to avoid a war."
Are you talking about the time period BEFORE Tolkeen sunk to the CS's level? If so, then sure. Before they became as bad as the CS, they weren't as bad as the CS. That's not something that I've disagreed with.

- didn't become monsters like the CS; many, when they saw even those bad things that their side was doing, refused to continue in the war or even fought to prevent those bad things from happening. in sufficient numbers that, unlike the few in the CS side who did the same, they weren't slaughtered on the spot, and were actually able to accomplish some good.

You know, citing your sources is always handy.

- they have a lot of warlocks, who don't force elementals to join the conflict against their will (and who would not have been warlocks for long if they helped an entire nation that enslaved elementals en masse); there is a difference between "force" and "ask and the elementals decided to join because they care about the warlocks". didn't make extensive use of demons from anything we can tell, apart from the daemonix, who were willing partners of their own free will. if anyone forced intelligent creatures into a fight, that would be the coalition states who were using millions of slave soldiers (the dog boys) who had no real choice whether to join at all. the fact that tolkeen recruited some bad creatures is true; the notion that they used them in any significant numbers before the sorcerer's revenge is not supported at all, given the shocked response of their own forces at the sorcerer's revenge to demons being on their side.

I've quoted the book flat-out stating that they enslaved intelligent beings, in the context of the build-up before the war.

eliakon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote: Insist what you like, but according to canon, the CS are basically Nazis, and Tolkeen was just as bad by the time the war started.
People are free to disagree with canon on either point; I'm simply pointing out what canon IS, not dictating everybody's personal opinions to them.

Again you keep saying this
Where is the CANON TEXT saying that.

Uh... It's in the lengthy post I made to you, directly addressing that question...?

And in the earlier post I made, which I linked to in that post I just made.

Here's a link:
viewtopic.php?p=2967625#p2967625

Let me know if the link doesn't work, or if you can't scroll up and find the post with the canon quotes, because I can cut and past them into a new post for you, if you really need me to do so.
If that doesn't work, I can try a DM, or I can print them off and mail you a hard copy or something.
I'm not sure why you're having trouble seeing the direct book quotes that I've been posting.

Here's that link again:
viewtopic.php?p=2967625#p2967625


You know, heck... here's that post again, cut and pasted for you:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are people still ignoring the repeated canon statements that Tolkeen was just as bad as the CS?

I'm curious.
Where are these canon statements found exactly?
And what, exactly do they say?

All good and fair questions.

I already posted this one:
CW1 page 7
Taken at face value, the Kingdom of Tolkeen is painted in a sympathetic light. They weren't looking for trouble and they are the ones being invaded by a ruthless foe. Only things are not so black and white. As our story progresses, the leaders of Tolkeen and the Coalition States will be shown to be more alike than different. Both are so blinded by hate and a lust for revenge that they are willing to sacrifice their own people to win at "all costs." Tolkeen's leaders betray the trust of their people by creating false hopes, manipulating the truth, and placing their own goals for revenge before the welfare of their people.

And I posted some bits from Erin Tarn's letter on p. 8:
I blame the destruction to come on the leaders of Tolkeen, beings who are showing themselves to be every bit as self-serving and ruthless as the Coalition States.
And
One day it dawned on me; the powers at Tolkeen are nothing more than the other edge of the same blade that is Emperor Prosek and the Coalition States.

Also....
CW1 93
King Creed has become cold, calculating and ruthless. A murky reflection of the very man he despises, Emperor Karl Prosek.

CW1 135
To paraphrase Nietzsche, "When fighting monsters, one must take care not to become one himself." This is an underlying theme throughout the Siege on Tolkeen series. They are words that participants in this war should heed, for many among the Coalition and Tolkeen forces see each other as the embodiment of evil--"monsters" to be destroyed--yet they fail to see that they too have become loathsome "monsters"--many having become cold, ruthless killing machines driven by hate and devoid of mercy or compassion.

CW1 139
Demons and other supernatural beings such as Greater Demons, Gargoyles, Brodkil, Witchlings, Black Faeries, the savage Thornhead, and the Neuron Beast are all actively being recruited.
and
Meanwhile, unwilling participants such as Elementals, Lesser Demons, and independent minded creatures are being summoned, enslaved, and forced to serve Tolkeen's forces by Shifters, Warlocks, and other powerful beings.

It's clear that by the start of the siege, Tolkeen has little to no moral high-ground.
Like the CS, their leaders are corrupt deceivers, who are whipping their witless citizens into a frenzy of misguided patriotism and hate.
Like the CS, they have no qualms about using ruthless predators and inhuman slaves.

Repeatedly, it is held up that Tolkeen has become a mirror to the CS, that they are just as self-serving, just as hate-fueled, and just as ruthless.

This doesn't mean that it's always been this way, but that's how things are at the start of the siege.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote: Insist what you like, but according to canon, the CS are basically Nazis, and Tolkeen was just as bad by the time the war started.
People are free to disagree with canon on either point; I'm simply pointing out what canon IS, not dictating everybody's personal opinions to them.

Again you keep saying this
Where is the CANON TEXT saying that.

Uh... It's in the lengthy post I made to you, directly addressing that question...?

And in the earlier post I made, which I linked to in that post I just made.

Here's a link:
viewtopic.php?p=2967625#p2967625

Let me know if the link doesn't work, or if you can't scroll up and find the post with the canon quotes, because I can cut and past them into a new post for you, if you really need me to do so.
If that doesn't work, I can try a DM, or I can print them off and mail you a hard copy or something.
I'm not sure why you're having trouble seeing the direct book quotes that I've been posting.

Here's that link again:
viewtopic.php?p=2967625#p2967625


You know, heck... here's that post again, cut and pasted for you:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are people still ignoring the repeated canon statements that Tolkeen was just as bad as the CS?

I'm curious.
Where are these canon statements found exactly?
And what, exactly do they say?

All good and fair questions.

I already posted this one:
CW1 page 7
Taken at face value, the Kingdom of Tolkeen is painted in a sympathetic light. They weren't looking for trouble and they are the ones being invaded by a ruthless foe. Only things are not so black and white. As our story progresses, the leaders of Tolkeen and the Coalition States will be shown to be more alike than different. Both are so blinded by hate and a lust for revenge that they are willing to sacrifice their own people to win at "all costs." Tolkeen's leaders betray the trust of their people by creating false hopes, manipulating the truth, and placing their own goals for revenge before the welfare of their people.

And I posted some bits from Erin Tarn's letter on p. 8:
I blame the destruction to come on the leaders of Tolkeen, beings who are showing themselves to be every bit as self-serving and ruthless as the Coalition States.
And
One day it dawned on me; the powers at Tolkeen are nothing more than the other edge of the same blade that is Emperor Prosek and the Coalition States.

Also....
CW1 93
King Creed has become cold, calculating and ruthless. A murky reflection of the very man he despises, Emperor Karl Prosek.

CW1 135
To paraphrase Nietzsche, "When fighting monsters, one must take care not to become one himself." This is an underlying theme throughout the Siege on Tolkeen series. They are words that participants in this war should heed, for many among the Coalition and Tolkeen forces see each other as the embodiment of evil--"monsters" to be destroyed--yet they fail to see that they too have become loathsome "monsters"--many having become cold, ruthless killing machines driven by hate and devoid of mercy or compassion.

CW1 139
Demons and other supernatural beings such as Greater Demons, Gargoyles, Brodkil, Witchlings, Black Faeries, the savage Thornhead, and the Neuron Beast are all actively being recruited.
and
Meanwhile, unwilling participants such as Elementals, Lesser Demons, and independent minded creatures are being summoned, enslaved, and forced to serve Tolkeen's forces by Shifters, Warlocks, and other powerful beings.

It's clear that by the start of the siege, Tolkeen has little to no moral high-ground.
Like the CS, their leaders are corrupt deceivers, who are whipping their witless citizens into a frenzy of misguided patriotism and hate.
Like the CS, they have no qualms about using ruthless predators and inhuman slaves.

Repeatedly, it is held up that Tolkeen has become a mirror to the CS, that they are just as self-serving, just as hate-fueled, and just as ruthless.

This doesn't mean that it's always been this way, but that's how things are at the start of the siege.

Right
So...
The answer is
"no you don't have that statement, its not canon your just making it up."
Thanks.
No, seriously.
Saying "they were just as hate filled" is not the same as "just as evil"
Your trying to make false moral equivalencies, and then claim that they are a CANON statement of morality.
They are not.
And your opinion is not Canon.

I see this all the time in the Forums though. People who toss around the "Its canon" statement... for their own personal opinions, and their headcanon and fanon and house rules.

Was Tolkeen shining good? Heck no
Was Tolkeen by the end a full blown evil kingdom? Probably
Were they "just as evil as the CS" That is a matter of debate.
After all, Tolkeen did not run death camps where they were executing civilians.
Tolkeen was not razing towns and killing all the inhabitants regardless of if they were combatants or not.
Tolkeen did not deploy its weapons of mass destruction. Heck the CS has more evil slave soldiers than the entire Tolkeen fielded defenders.
They were lead by equally hate filled people. But hate=/= evil
They were lead by leaders who were obsessed with revenge... but again revenge =/= evil

In the light of such it is simply not truthful to claim that canon states that Tolkeen was "Just as evil" as the CS.

dreicunan wrote:Interesting take: Creed's inability to carry out his goal of making the CS suffer just as the CS had made sorcerers suffer means that he is somehow better than the CS. That is a fascinating approach. By that logic, then if you have two gentlemen who want to steal a car, but one of them fails to do so because he trips while crossing the street and causes a commotion attracting the attention of others, while the other succeeds, the failure is somehow more moral?

what makes you think creed was somehow unable to teleport troops into CS territory? or that he was unable to cause droughts with the number of warlocks at his disposal? what makes you think he couldn't have attacked before the CS declared war, or that he couldn't have targeted CS cities with weapons instead to kill civilians? he had all the capabilities he needed, it's just that tolkeen never used them. that's the difference. both sides had the capability of doing those things. the tools were there to be just as awful as the CS was being, though perhaps not always on the same scale, but the thing is, they weren't used on any scale. it isn't that tolkeen didn't succeed... in some cases, the CS didn't succeed either (for example, their missile bombardment to wipe out tolkeen failed). it's that tolkeen didn't try. they could have tried. they didn't.

@KC: i'll have to see if i can dig around for the exact page number on the statement that tolkeen had, but did not end up using, their ability to cause a drought to attempt to starve out the CS. it's in the same area that notes the CS is the breadbasket of north america, as i recall. might take a while to find it, and i might never find it, though... i *think* it was in CWC rather than one of the SoT books themselves.

that said... when you can teleport, it isn't a lot harder to target cities. it is as easy to target one place as it is to target any other. i'm not suggesting that tolkeen would need to teleport half a million troops outside of chi-town and start killing everything in sight... all we would need to say that tolkeen is just as bad would be that they teleported some monsters into CS territory and turned them loose to slaughter civilians. which isn't something that tolkeen did. thus, they are not as bad. they had the ability to do that, it wouldn't have even been hard... but they didn't.

the source for many of the defenders of tolkeen leaving because of the sorcerer's revenge is most likely in the sorcerer's revenge. it includes a lot of cyberknights, but also a number of regular defenders of tolkeen.

and again, the rule is "show, don't tell". if you tell me they enslaved intelligent beings... well, where were they? i mean, we can see that the CS used dog boys, they're all over the place. so where are the tolkeenites enslaved minions? they're nowhere to be found. furthermore, the quote you cited is clearly not reliable, because it says that warlocks were the ones doing the enslaving of elementals, which is complete and utter nonsense. if i have a friend who is moving, and i don't particularly want to move a bunch of boxes and furniture and random crap, but i am willing to do it in spite of not wanting to do it because that person is my friend, that is not slavery, that's just me putting one priority (friendship) over another (laziness). so yeah, the book says it... but at least in that paragraph, the book demonstrates that there is no proper understanding of what's going on. i don't care what the book says when the book is provably wrong. it can say whatever it likes: what it shows, and what the evidence shows, is different.

just like when tarn says creed is just as bad as prosek... well, no he isn't, the evidence shows that there are some rather evil things prosek feels totally comfortable with doing that creed is not comfortable with doing. he may be bad in some ways. but he is not bad in all the ways.

Tolkeen fought almost the entire war on the defensive. Their battle strategy was to make the CS come to them, and fight through their booby-trapped countryside like those two burglars in "Home Alone". Could they have caused droughts that would have severely impacted the CS? Maybe, we aren't really sure how protected the CS food supply is. There have been long threads about how cities feed themselves in Rifts. As far as I know, it isn't that Tolkeen specifically avoided those sorts of tactics, it's just that these tactics aren't mentioned at all and various posters have latched onto it as proof of Tolkeen's refusal to pass a particular moral event horizon. It's like Prosek not having somebody use Object Read to find out if his wife's alive.

The fact that Tolkeen didn't use every possible tactic that a player can come up with is not proof that they actively avoided doing it. It's just another example of Siembieda not realizing they could do that. The intention of the Seige of Tolkeen series, as told to us on the very first page, is to show that they have become just as bad as the Coalition. We're told that in Word of God form as well as through Mary Sue Mouthpiece, Erin Tarn.

As far as wiping out cities, Tolkeen lost. The fact that they were not as powerful, and were not in a position to wipe out cities, does not affect the morality of their actions at all. You can be an evil little bastard even without power (see Stewie Griffin).

Teleporting into Chi-Town? We don't really know much about that. People have used that as an easy example of how to attack the Coalition for years. Personally, I think it's an easy way to get all your characters killed. The inner workings of Chi-Town are like your gamemaster's homebrew D&D dungeon that he made when he was 14. When every door was triple-trapped, and there were instant death rooms every time you turned a corner. We haven't ever received a book on Chi-Town itself, and that means that it's completely up to the GM. We do know that it's a huge fortress full of soldiers and security checkpoints. Jumping into it blind seems a good way to end up dead. And again, just because KS doesn't say anything about it at all, does NOT automatically mean that Tolkeen decided not to pursue attacks like that out of the goodness of their hearts. They very well may have tried it, and it just didn't work. Who knows.


And personally, I think Emperor Prosek's real name is actually like Joe Smith or something. Maybe there's a secret imperial decree that changes the legal names of all the really high up people in the CS regularly. Like every day, Prosek's legal name changes to some string of characters like a computer password. That way when some jerkwad mage tries to spy on him or cast harassment spells (or even really dangerous ones like Death Curse), it doesn't actually target him. Casting a spell on "Karl Prosek" actually goes on some poor convict who has been cosmetically altered to look like the Emperor, but he's really in a prison cell that's been set up to look like a war room. And he's been surrounded by skelebots in Dead Boy armor that are just programmed to salute whenever he says something. "Yes sir!" and then they march through a doorway and then come back ten minutes later.

Chi-Town should be full of stuff like that. Weird protocols and random paranoid security measures that don't seem to make sense on the surface.

The spell that is being talked about is Blight of Ages
It is described as being able to wipe out the crops in Missouri and Iowa.
Now, sure people can homebrew that the CS doesn't really grow crops...
but the books are pretty clear that they CS does, that it has agriculture as a key part of the food and all the rest.

And the spell is HIDEOUSLY effective.
A single casting from one of the Circle of Twelve (say... from a scroll) can affect a radius of anywhere from 8 miles to 120 miles depending on the specifics.

A second WMD is Vicious circle
Again a scroll of this could instantly kill everyone with in a vast area (depending on where it is cast, and by who it could potentially kill everyone within several miles)

These spells could have been used to kill entire cities and utterly destroy the food supply of the CS.
They could have been.
But they weren't
Tolkeen had the weapons and they chose not to use them.
Moreover for at least one of these Tolkeen is explicitly said to be considering using the weapon (Blight of Ages) for this exact purpose (wiping out the CS Crops). So in at least this one example we can clearly state with 100% certainty that K.S. knew of the idea, considered the idea, and then explicitly chose to not have Tolkeen use it.
That right there demonstrates that Tolkeen could have used genocidal tactics... but didn't.

Tolkeen could have given these spells to the Dragon Kings and had the Kings strike with them instead of risk their Shadows in direct combat.
But they didn't

Tolkeen could have simply teleported or flown troops at attacked the cities directly. After all Chi-Town is only a few hours flight time away from Tolkeen and the other cities are not much farther.
But they didn't.

Tolkeen could have done a lot of monstrous things, but they didn't.
Hiring evil troops? Yeah both sides were doing that.
Enslaving troops? The CS has more slave soldiers than the entire population of Tolkeen!
Annihilating entire cities? Only the CS did that
Death camps? Yep, another CS exclusive
Use of WMDs? Oh hey look at that. Only one side did that too.

Eagle please stop making unbacked claims that Prosek didn't have Object Read used. We don't know if any useful Intel could be gathered from that. If all the visions you get are smoke and then a finger, how would that help?

Regarding Tolkeen sparing civilians, I suggest people check the Dark Allies portion in the back of Sedition.

From the very start Tolkeen was summoning hundreds of Greater Demons (Thornheads and Neuron Beasts) and other evil beings (Witchlings and Black Fairies) and setting them free to do whatever they wanted once a battle was over.

They may have gambled the CS would destroy them first but that is still a huge risk.

Eliakon it would be tricky to set off that spell in a city. Clairvoyants could allow PsiNet nullifiers and negas to intercept you before you could read the whole scroll. Vanguard probably also have energy negate magic talismans and anti magic cloud scrolls to defend the cities.

Whatever Tolkeen could try, Nostrous and Alistair probably have already tried.

eliakon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote: Insist what you like, but according to canon, the CS are basically Nazis, and Tolkeen was just as bad by the time the war started.
People are free to disagree with canon on either point; I'm simply pointing out what canon IS, not dictating everybody's personal opinions to them.

Again you keep saying this
Where is the CANON TEXT saying that.

Uh... It's in the lengthy post I made to you, directly addressing that question...?

And in the earlier post I made, which I linked to in that post I just made.

Here's a link:
viewtopic.php?p=2967625#p2967625

Let me know if the link doesn't work, or if you can't scroll up and find the post with the canon quotes, because I can cut and past them into a new post for you, if you really need me to do so.
If that doesn't work, I can try a DM, or I can print them off and mail you a hard copy or something.
I'm not sure why you're having trouble seeing the direct book quotes that I've been posting.

Here's that link again:
viewtopic.php?p=2967625#p2967625


You know, heck... here's that post again, cut and pasted for you:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are people still ignoring the repeated canon statements that Tolkeen was just as bad as the CS?

I'm curious.
Where are these canon statements found exactly?
And what, exactly do they say?

All good and fair questions.

I already posted this one:
CW1 page 7
Taken at face value, the Kingdom of Tolkeen is painted in a sympathetic light. They weren't looking for trouble and they are the ones being invaded by a ruthless foe. Only things are not so black and white. As our story progresses, the leaders of Tolkeen and the Coalition States will be shown to be more alike than different. Both are so blinded by hate and a lust for revenge that they are willing to sacrifice their own people to win at "all costs." Tolkeen's leaders betray the trust of their people by creating false hopes, manipulating the truth, and placing their own goals for revenge before the welfare of their people.

And I posted some bits from Erin Tarn's letter on p. 8:
I blame the destruction to come on the leaders of Tolkeen, beings who are showing themselves to be every bit as self-serving and ruthless as the Coalition States.
And
One day it dawned on me; the powers at Tolkeen are nothing more than the other edge of the same blade that is Emperor Prosek and the Coalition States.

Also....
CW1 93
King Creed has become cold, calculating and ruthless. A murky reflection of the very man he despises, Emperor Karl Prosek.

CW1 135
To paraphrase Nietzsche, "When fighting monsters, one must take care not to become one himself." This is an underlying theme throughout the Siege on Tolkeen series. They are words that participants in this war should heed, for many among the Coalition and Tolkeen forces see each other as the embodiment of evil--"monsters" to be destroyed--yet they fail to see that they too have become loathsome "monsters"--many having become cold, ruthless killing machines driven by hate and devoid of mercy or compassion.

CW1 139
Demons and other supernatural beings such as Greater Demons, Gargoyles, Brodkil, Witchlings, Black Faeries, the savage Thornhead, and the Neuron Beast are all actively being recruited.
and
Meanwhile, unwilling participants such as Elementals, Lesser Demons, and independent minded creatures are being summoned, enslaved, and forced to serve Tolkeen's forces by Shifters, Warlocks, and other powerful beings.

It's clear that by the start of the siege, Tolkeen has little to no moral high-ground.
Like the CS, their leaders are corrupt deceivers, who are whipping their witless citizens into a frenzy of misguided patriotism and hate.
Like the CS, they have no qualms about using ruthless predators and inhuman slaves.

Repeatedly, it is held up that Tolkeen has become a mirror to the CS, that they are just as self-serving, just as hate-fueled, and just as ruthless.

This doesn't mean that it's always been this way, but that's how things are at the start of the siege.

Right
So...
The answer is
"no you don't have that statement, its not canon your just making it up."
Thanks.
No, seriously.

Saying "they were just as hate filled" is not the same as "just as evil"

And neither of those things is necessarily semantically the same as "just as bad," if you want to get into it.

By canon,
Tolkeen and the CS are more alike than they are different.
Both are blinded by hate.
Both are blinded by a lust for revenge.
Both are willing to sacrifice their own people to "win."
Both manipulate their people for their own goals.
Both are equally self-serving and ruthless.
Both use slaves as warriors.

You can say that KS wrote all that stuff to show how the CS was more evil than Tolkeen, but I think it's pretty clear that he's pointing out how... well, how they're more alike than they are different.

Hence
the powers at Tolkeen are nothing more than the other edge of the same blade that is Emperor Prosek and the Coalition States.
and
King Creed has become a reflection of Emperor Karl Prosek

KS isn't talking about fashion sense.
He's not talking about food preferences.
He's repeatedly saying that these two are the same on a moral level.

Was Tolkeen shining good? Heck no
Was Tolkeen by the end a full blown evil kingdom? Probably
Were they "just as evil as the CS" That is a matter of debate.

Anything is up for debate, apparently.
But it's pretty clear how KS wrote things, and what he intended.
Tolkeen and the CS are more alike than they are different.

After all, Tolkeen did not run death camps where they were executing civilians.

The CS wasn't summoning demons.
(etc. etc. etc.)

(How much do you want to back-and-forth each item, arguing that because they're different they can't be essentially equally immoral?)

Is it ever explicitly said that Tolkeen never had a death camp or are people assuming this because there was not explicit mention of one?

Regarding slave warriors... I imagine more Dog Boys are content with their position than demons...

Also IRL we do enslave dogs and train them to be useful in police and military. So what's wrong with keeping them in that role after giving them the gift of intelligence especially when most love it?

Tolkeen didn't create its summoned slaves, it ripped them from their home dimensions.