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Dairugger XV wrote:Unfortunately, there is no direct reference here, but an inference that because the mecha in the newer books run on a funny acronym with no mention of Protoculture at all then they are not subject to the Protoculture sensor and targetting used by the Invid.

It's not really an inference... it's going with the literal text of the rule as presented. It isn't "these mecha are detectable" in the book, it's "the sensor detects protoculture energy, and these are some examples of mecha that use it". Then the later books came along and said, variously, that those mecha didn't use protoculture power at all, and that vehicles that are not protoculture-powered are not visible to Invid protoculture sensors.

A statement that not being protoculture-powered makes a vehicle invisible to the sensors is pretty much the opposite of an inference.

Dairugger XV wrote:I would agree with you, but it does list the mecha as showing up on the sensor.

Yes, but it specifically gives the reason as them being protoculture-powered... and their stats indicate that ain't so. That's the whole bone of contention here... which takes priority, rules from the core book which assume the VF-1 etc. are protoculture-powered, or rules from later books which clearly indicate they are not.

Dairugger XV wrote:I could also see someone making an argument about a "false positive" or something about a protoculture cell being used to start the SMLH process.

Considering that the known examples of protoculture-initiated fusion are all listed as having a protoculture power system to drive fusion engine X, Y, and Z, I can't see that being the case.

Dairugger XV wrote:The reality is that the first book does state certain mecha that show up, and then when the power source changed it did not go so far as to say "oh by the way these mecha are now invisible to the Invid P Sensor now."

I don't see why it should have to... as the rule doesn't say "these mecha are detectable full stop" it says "the sensor detects protoculture energy usage, here are some mecha that use protoculture". The second part is no longer true as far as their stats are concerned, so the full context of the rule should exempt them on the grounds that they no longer produce the requisite energy emission for detection. The New Generation book endorses this view, with explicit mention that not being protoculture-powered makes a vehicle invisible to the sensor in question.

Dairugger XV wrote:Seto Kaiba,

What you are describing is a judgement call on your part. One I find to be very reasonable, and one that I agree with. However, it is not an official ruling.

I dunno how you could interpret it as anything else but the rules as written... my entire position here is simply that the later publications have invalidated the UEDF and ASC mecha being on that list.

The sensor rule says that the sensor detects the emissions of power source A.
The source book rules for the mecha say they don't use power source A.
How are there emissions for a power source they don't have?

This is not contradicting the rules... this is simple logic, based on the practice that a later publication in the series takes precedence over an earlier one and a clear and consistent set of official stats that indicate those mecha don't use the power source the rule in the core book says they do.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Dairugger XV wrote:Seto Kaiba,

What you are describing is a judgement call on your part. One I find to be very reasonable, and one that I agree with. However, it is not an official ruling.

I dunno how you could interpret it as anything else but the rules as written... my entire position here is simply that the later publications have invalidated the UEDF and ASC mecha being on that list.

The sensor rule says that the sensor detects the emissions of power source A.
The source book rules for the mecha say they don't use power source A.
How are there emissions for a power source they don't have?

This is not contradicting the rules... this is simple logic, based on the practice that a later publication in the series takes precedence over an earlier one and a clear and consistent set of official stats that indicate those mecha don't use the power source the rule in the core book says they do.

But you are discounting "Protoculture Chips" which 'may' not be listed in anywhere but in the Invid Section, BUT is listed as something in the 85eps.

The lack of proof does not mean that it does not exist. So in this case, the RPG is not the Robotech Bible, it is just part of the whole.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Dairugger XV wrote:Seto Kaiba,

What you are describing is a judgement call on your part. One I find to be very reasonable, and one that I agree with. However, it is not an official ruling.

I dunno how you could interpret it as anything else but the rules as written... my entire position here is simply that the later publications have invalidated the UEDF and ASC mecha being on that list.

The sensor rule says that the sensor detects the emissions of power source A.
The source book rules for the mecha say they don't use power source A.
How are there emissions for a power source they don't have?

This is not contradicting the rules... this is simple logic, based on the practice that a later publication in the series takes precedence over an earlier one and a clear and consistent set of official stats that indicate those mecha don't use the power source the rule in the core book says they do.

Because that's not whats said?
The sensor rules says it detects A,B,C,D,E, and power source F
the source book says A,B,C,D,E do not have power source F as their primary

Again you are making a personal interpretation that power source F must either be the primary source or explicitly listed as a sub system. Neither of which is actually supported by the books/RAW. IF your personal interpretation is granted then yes its simple logic. However if you do NOT get to make that decision, if you go with the RAW then there are alternate possibilities.
Simply dismissing all other possibilities as "not true, because they are not true" is not logical thinking, its Dogmatic thinking.

Tiree wrote:But you are discounting "Protoculture Chips" which 'may' not be listed in anywhere but in the Invid Section, BUT is listed as something in the 85eps.

But it's never actually connected with anything anywhere in the series... it may be they were making parts for Zentradi mecha, or ships, or flush toilets. There is no way to know and since the technology is not present in the RPG EXCEPT in the possession of the Invid... for us to assume that as the reason (particularly when it doesn't fit with what's defined as sources of protoculture energy) is rather silly and illogical.

Tiree wrote:The lack of proof does not mean that it does not exist. So in this case, the RPG is not the Robotech Bible, it is just part of the whole.

Yes, but a lack of evidence for something's existence does not demonstrate or in any way give support to the notion that a thing is present... especially when the technology DOES EXIST in the RPG, but is only present in Invid cybernetics, and is not stated to use or emit protoculture energy in any way (nor is it stated as detectable by Invid sensors).

Dairugger XV wrote:Because 70%+ of all humanity (I am being generous here) is NOT logical and is prone to reject logic? Therefore unless it is specifically stated that an apparent contradiction is solvable only one way, people will find ways of doing it the way they want to?

But that doesn't make my point wrong... it just means that some folks will ignore the logic of the obvious answer that jives with official sources in favor of their own, completely baseless assertions. My approach is the only one that favors the maximum consistency with what's in ALL books of the RPG AS WRITTEN.

(It really is baffling that someone like me, who is frequently decried as being a "Robotech hater", is the one forever defending Harmony Gold's handling of the canon and the text as the publisher printed it.)

Dairugger XV wrote:Also, there are a lot of people that draw from sources not of the RPG, and considering that the RPG is the derivative product and not the other way around, it is hard to fault them for doing so.

Yes, but those are called "house rules", and are something else entirely. Ain't nobody here saying you CAN'T houserule those mecha into having a protoculture power system for the Invid to detect, or houserule changes into the sensor rules that make them detect other sources besides just active protoculture power sources and devices containing same... but they're still house rules, because they contradict the text of the RPG.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Dairugger XV wrote:Seto Kaiba,

What you are describing is a judgement call on your part. One I find to be very reasonable, and one that I agree with. However, it is not an official ruling.

I dunno how you could interpret it as anything else but the rules as written... my entire position here is simply that the later publications have invalidated the UEDF and ASC mecha being on that list.

The sensor rule says that the sensor detects the emissions of power source A.
The source book rules for the mecha say they don't use power source A.
How are there emissions for a power source they don't have?

This is not contradicting the rules... this is simple logic, based on the practice that a later publication in the series takes precedence over an earlier one and a clear and consistent set of official stats that indicate those mecha don't use the power source the rule in the core book says they do.

The principle of most recent takes precedence only applies when a defined hierarchy to the publications isn't present. As noted on page 6 of the full sized Macross Sourcebook: "Robotech: The Macross Saga is a sourcebook. For those of you new to role-playing games, that means you need the Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles Role-Playing Game to play the heroes and storyline of Macross." At several other times it refers the reader back to the Shadow Chronicles book to get the specifics of rules and so forth. Anytime it does make a substitution for what is in the main book (OCC and Skill selections) it specifies the circumstance rather than providing a blanket override.

In short, Macross Saga does not take precedence over Shadow Chronicles. It adds material to Shadow Chronicles, but it doesn't override that material except where it explicitly says so (ie OCC and Skills).

The precedence also would only apply in the case of a direct contradiction. As the PTS never indicates it only works on protoculture powered devices, instead it works on those that use and emit protoculture energy. Nothing says the Valkyrie (for example) doesn't use or emit protoculture energy.