The Invincibility of the CS?

[Killer Cyborg]

The fact that Tolkeen didn't use every possible tactic that a player can come up with is not proof that they actively avoided doing it. It's just another example of Siembieda not realizing they could do that...

Teleporting into Chi-Town? We don't really know much about that. People have used that as an easy example of how to attack the Coalition for years. Personally, I think it's an easy way to get all your characters killed...

viewtopic.php?p=2744016#p2744016

at the Unofficial Open House tour of the Palladium warehouse, I got to ask Kevin about this sort of thing:
Why don't mages and dragons just teleport into Chi-Town and attack?
Well, they probably DO. But it's a huge city full of cops and soldiers as well as civilians, so it's kind of a suicide mission.

[Shark_Force]

Tolkeen fought almost the entire war on the defensive. Their battle strategy was to make the CS come to them, and fight through their booby-trapped countryside like those two burglars in "Home Alone". Could they have caused droughts that would have severely impacted the CS? Maybe, we aren't really sure how protected the CS food supply is. There have been long threads about how cities feed themselves in Rifts. As far as I know, it isn't that Tolkeen specifically avoided those sorts of tactics, it's just that these tactics aren't mentioned at all and various posters have latched onto it as proof of Tolkeen's refusal to pass a particular moral event horizon. It's like Prosek not having somebody use Object Read to find out if his wife's alive.

The fact that Tolkeen didn't use every possible tactic that a player can come up with is not proof that they actively avoided doing it. It's just another example of Siembieda not realizing they could do that. The intention of the Seige of Tolkeen series, as told to us on the very first page, is to show that they have become just as bad as the Coalition. We're told that in Word of God form as well as through Mary Sue Mouthpiece, Erin Tarn.

As far as wiping out cities, Tolkeen lost. The fact that they were not as powerful, and were not in a position to wipe out cities, does not affect the morality of their actions at all. You can be an evil little bastard even without power (see Stewie Griffin).

Teleporting into Chi-Town? We don't really know much about that. People have used that as an easy example of how to attack the Coalition for years. Personally, I think it's an easy way to get all your characters killed. The inner workings of Chi-Town are like your gamemaster's homebrew D&D dungeon that he made when he was 14. When every door was triple-trapped, and there were instant death rooms every time you turned a corner. We haven't ever received a book on Chi-Town itself, and that means that it's completely up to the GM. We do know that it's a huge fortress full of soldiers and security checkpoints. Jumping into it blind seems a good way to end up dead. And again, just because KS doesn't say anything about it at all, does NOT automatically mean that Tolkeen decided not to pursue attacks like that out of the goodness of their hearts. They very well may have tried it, and it just didn't work. Who knows.


And personally, I think Emperor Prosek's real name is actually like Joe Smith or something. Maybe there's a secret imperial decree that changes the legal names of all the really high up people in the CS regularly. Like every day, Prosek's legal name changes to some string of characters like a computer password. That way when some jerkwad mage tries to spy on him or cast harassment spells (or even really dangerous ones like Death Curse), it doesn't actually target him. Casting a spell on "Karl Prosek" actually goes on some poor convict who has been cosmetically altered to look like the Emperor, but he's really in a prison cell that's been set up to look like a war room. And he's been surrounded by skelebots in Dead Boy armor that are just programmed to salute whenever he says something. "Yes sir!" and then they march through a doorway and then come back ten minutes later.

Chi-Town should be full of stuff like that. Weird protocols and random paranoid security measures that don't seem to make sense on the surface.

first off, i must repeat: this isn't about capability of achieving large-scale success (although tolkeen certainly had some options for inflicting serious damage to various parts of the CS war machine). it's about interest. tolkeen didn't attack *any* civilian targets. they didn't just ignore chi-town, they ignored all the random farms and villages that are scattered across the CS (you know, the part of their population that *isn't* in the megacities or the 'burbs). none of which are as heavily guarded as chi-town, and most of which are likely not really guarded at all. there were targets that they would ignore because it's a bad idea to attack, but there are also plenty of targets they could have hit, which could have made an impact on the war (food, new recruits, factories, etc), and they chose not to attack those targets. they could have hit civilians. they chose not to.

if i say i am not punching you but my fist is firmly planted in your gut, i am not telling you the truth. i don't care how many times the books insist that tolkeen is totally irrevocably as evil as the CS in every way when the books clearly SHOW us that they are absolutely not. they can rant and rave all they want and spew nonsense every which way, their ranting and raving won't turn the nonsense into anything else. the evidence says that tolkeen was not as evil as the CS. they certainly weren't good (frankly, very few if any nations are what i would describe as good, but that's a whole different depressing matter). but they also very clearly were not *as evil*. bad, yes. equally bad, no.

@KC: the books tell us that the tolkeenites genuinely thought the daemonix they were summoning had turned over a new leaf. that is certainly mind-blowingly stupid and reckless, but it really isn't the same as summoning the daemonix knowing that they were going to do evil things.

[eliakon]

Eagle please stop making unbacked claims that Prosek didn't have Object Read used. We don't know if any useful Intel could be gathered from that. If all the visions you get are smoke and then a finger, how would that help?

Regarding Tolkeen sparing civilians, I suggest people check the Dark Allies portion in the back of Sedition.

From the very start Tolkeen was summoning hundreds of Greater Demons (Thornheads and Neuron Beasts) and other evil beings (Witchlings and Black Fairies) and setting them free to do whatever they wanted once a battle was over.

They may have gambled the CS would destroy them first but that is still a huge risk.

Problem with that is that the war wasn't fought in CS territory.
There were no CS Civilians to be attacked.

Now, if Tolkeen had been invading the CS and summoning Demons into CS territory that might be a valid argument.
But as it is, it fails miserably

Eliakon it would be tricky to set off that spell in a city. Clairvoyants could allow PsiNet nullifiers and negas to intercept you before you could read the whole scroll. Vanguard probably also have energy negate magic talismans and anti magic cloud scrolls to defend the cities.

Whatever Tolkeen could try, Nostrous and Alistair probably have already tried.

Clairvoyants may or may not be able to do it.
That is a laugh though, really.
Because to work it requires the CS to have magical plot armor that works for them, and them alone. So that they, alone get clairvoyance of such precision that it can be used to specifically target individuals...
while no one else can even notice entire ARMIES sneaking up to wipe them out.

as for Psi Nullifiers...
Chi Town has around... 30 or 40 of them. (Psi-Bat Alpha has 640 people, of which 5% are Nullifiers)
Total
That sort of limits the number of places that they can defend. And of course a spell can be overcast to blow through the Nullifier.

So sure... if we just magically give the CS a huge supply of Nullifiers, and an amazing omniscient clairvoyance department then they magically get to be immune to attack.

[Killer Cyborg]

These spells could have been used to kill entire cities and utterly destroy the food supply of the CS.

Maybe.
They could also have been used and NOT killed entire cities and such.
Not every plan always works.
I mean, on paper, the CS missile attack on Tolkeen should have worked... up until Tolkeen's defenses were detailed, and the plan was easily thwarted by a previously unknown defense.

Tolkeen had the weapons and they chose not to use them.

Be specific here. Are you claiming "Tolkeen chose not to use these weapons?"
Or are you claiming "We are never shown in canon Tolkeen choosing to uses these weapons?"
Because those two are NOT the same thing.

If there's a passage in the books that describes Tolkeen actively choosing not to attack civilians, and not to use super-weapons on the CS, please quote that passage.
If there isn't such a passage, then say so.

Moreover for at least one of these Tolkeen is explicitly said to be considering using the weapon (Blight of Ages) for this exact purpose (wiping out the CS Crops). So in at least this one example we can clearly state with 100% certainty that K.S. knew of the idea, considered the idea, and then explicitly chose to not have Tolkeen use it.
That right there demonstrates that Tolkeen could have used genocidal tactics... but didn't.

That demonstrates that Tolkeen was considering using a magical weapon.
Unless there's something you're leaving out, then it does NOT demonstrate that Tolkeen chose not to use that weapon for moral reasons.

Same with the rest of your stuff.
Unless you have citations showing Tolkeen choosing not to do these things on moral ground, then the fact that they didn't do it doesn't mean much.

[Vrykolas2k]

Eagle please stop making unbacked claims that Prosek didn't have Object Read used. We don't know if any useful Intel could be gathered from that. If all the visions you get are smoke and then a finger, how would that help?

Regarding Tolkeen sparing civilians, I suggest people check the Dark Allies portion in the back of Sedition.

From the very start Tolkeen was summoning hundreds of Greater Demons (Thornheads and Neuron Beasts) and other evil beings (Witchlings and Black Fairies) and setting them free to do whatever they wanted once a battle was over.

They may have gambled the CS would destroy them first but that is still a huge risk.

Problem with that is that the war wasn't fought in CS territory.
There were no CS Civilians to be attacked.

Now, if Tolkeen had been invading the CS and summoning Demons into CS territory that might be a valid argument.
But as it is, it fails miserably

Eliakon it would be tricky to set off that spell in a city. Clairvoyants could allow PsiNet nullifiers and negas to intercept you before you could read the whole scroll. Vanguard probably also have energy negate magic talismans and anti magic cloud scrolls to defend the cities.

Whatever Tolkeen could try, Nostrous and Alistair probably have already tried.

Clairvoyants may or may not be able to do it.
That is a laugh though, really.
Because to work it requires the CS to have magical plot armor that works for them, and them alone. So that they, alone get clairvoyance of such precision that it can be used to specifically target individuals...
while no one else can even notice entire ARMIES sneaking up to wipe them out.

as for Psi Nullifiers...
Chi Town has around... 30 or 40 of them. (Psi-Bat Alpha has 640 people, of which 5% are Nullifiers)
Total
That sort of limits the number of places that they can defend. And of course a spell can be overcast to blow through the Nullifier.

So sure... if we just magically give the CS a huge supply of Nullifiers, and an amazing omniscient clairvoyance department then they magically get to be immune to attack.

I sure wish people would realize that Clairvoyance isn't a precise science.
If it was, the powerful masters of psionics could have pinpointed the Four Demons and Seven Dangers, rather than giving relatively vague warnings.
"Yes, a few hundred Mechanoids are going to appear in what used to be Aberdeen!" as opposed to, "Some big devouring swarm, somewhere to the East."

[eliakon]

:roll:

Saying "they were just as hate filled" is not the same as "just as evil"

And neither of those things is necessarily semantically the same as "just as bad," if you want to get into it.

Then gee, your claim that the canon says that they ARE just as bad is false then isn't it?

By canon,
Tolkeen and the CS are more alike than they are different.
Both are blinded by hate.
Both are blinded by a lust for revenge.
Both are willing to sacrifice their own people to "win."
Both manipulate their people for their own goals.
Both are equally self-serving and ruthless.
Both use slaves as warriors.

You can say that KS wrote all that stuff to show how the CS was more evil than Tolkeen, but I think it's pretty clear that he's pointing out how... well, how they're more alike than they are different.

Still doesn't prove that they are both equally evil.
That is the problem.
You are making a claim that goes beyond what the books state and then trying to claim that the books actually DO state it.

Hence
the powers at Tolkeen are nothing more than the other edge of the same blade that is Emperor Prosek and the Coalition States.
and
King Creed has become a reflection of Emperor Karl Prosek

KS isn't talking about fashion sense.
He's not talking about food preferences.
He's repeatedly saying that these two are the same on a moral level.

And this is where you fail
You are making a personal interpretation of the book and then claiming that your personal interpretation is canon.

Was Tolkeen shining good? Heck no
Was Tolkeen by the end a full blown evil kingdom? Probably
Were they "just as evil as the CS" That is a matter of debate.

Anything is up for debate, apparently.
But it's pretty clear how KS wrote things, and what he intended.
Tolkeen and the CS are more alike than they are different.

Alike is not Equal

After all, Tolkeen did not run death camps where they were executing civilians.

The CS wasn't summoning demons.
(etc. etc. etc.)

The difference between a Demon and a Skelbot is... oh wait there isn't one to the butchered victims.
Except of course for the fact that the CS has millions more of their demons.

(How much do you want to back-and-forth each item, arguing that because they're different they can't be essentially equally immoral?)

Your making a false equivalency with all of this
Your stating that evil is equally evil
That is false
Tolkeen can be evil with out being just as evil as the CS.
Tolkeen can even have fallen to 'reflect' the CS with out having fallen to the same depths as the CS.

The CS was the ONLY one with deathcamps
The CS was the ONLY one that deployed WMDs
The CS was the ONLY one that was engaged in genocide

Hmmm, that sort of suggests that the evils are NOT equal
Which then suggests that your claim that they ARE equal is false.
Now you can argue that you FEEL that they are equal because you feel that evil is evil.
That's fine. You can argue that.
But you cant claim that it is canon. Because that is not what the canon says.
My point is that you can argue that you feel that they are essentially equally immoral. That is perfectly valid and truthful to say.
But you can not truthfully say that the canon says that they are equally immoral, because it does not say that.
The canon says that they are very alike
The canon says that they are equally hate filled
The canon says that they have caused their soldiers to start turning into the dark mirror of each other
But the canon does NOT say that they are equally evil.

[Eagle]

Eagle please stop making unbacked claims that Prosek didn't have Object Read used. We don't know if any useful Intel could be gathered from that. If all the visions you get are smoke and then a finger, how would that help?

Axel, please read my post again. That's not what I'm talking about.

[eliakon]

These spells could have been used to kill entire cities and utterly destroy the food supply of the CS.

Maybe.
They could also have been used and NOT killed entire cities and such.
Not every plan always works.
I mean, on paper, the CS missile attack on Tolkeen should have worked... up until Tolkeen's defenses were detailed, and the plan was easily thwarted by a previously unknown defense.

The issue is not if it WOULD have worked.
The issue is that it was not TRIED
The CS launched nuclear missiles
Tolkeen did NOT launch Blight of Ages.

Tolkeen had the weapons and they chose not to use them.

Be specific here. Are you claiming "Tolkeen chose not to use these weapons?"
Or are you claiming "We are never shown in canon Tolkeen choosing to uses these weapons?"
Because those two are NOT the same thing.

I am sorry but claiming that Tolkeen used a WMD off stage that was never discussed, and it did nothing at all and thus Tolkeen is really evil is...

If there's a passage in the books that describes Tolkeen actively choosing not to attack civilians, and not to use super-weapons on the CS, please quote that passage.
If there isn't such a passage, then say so.

Moreover for at least one of these Tolkeen is explicitly said to be considering using the weapon (Blight of Ages) for this exact purpose (wiping out the CS Crops). So in at least this one example we can clearly state with 100% certainty that K.S. knew of the idea, considered the idea, and then explicitly chose to not have Tolkeen use it.
That right there demonstrates that Tolkeen could have used genocidal tactics... but didn't.

That demonstrates that Tolkeen was considering using a magical weapon.
Unless there's something you're leaving out, then it does NOT demonstrate that Tolkeen chose not to use that weapon for moral reasons.

Same with the rest of your stuff.
Unless you have citations showing Tolkeen choosing not to do these things on moral ground, then the fact that they didn't do it doesn't mean much.

I find it hilarious that you want page specific quotes from your opponents.
But fell free to use what ever you like and interpret it as you see fit when your arguing.

[Killer Cyborg]

Eagle please stop making unbacked claims that Prosek didn't have Object Read used. We don't know if any useful Intel could be gathered from that. If all the visions you get are smoke and then a finger, how would that help?

Regarding Tolkeen sparing civilians, I suggest people check the Dark Allies portion in the back of Sedition.

From the very start Tolkeen was summoning hundreds of Greater Demons (Thornheads and Neuron Beasts) and other evil beings (Witchlings and Black Fairies) and setting them free to do whatever they wanted once a battle was over.

They may have gambled the CS would destroy them first but that is still a huge risk.

Problem with that is that the war wasn't fought in CS territory.
There were no CS Civilians to be attacked.

But there were civilians.

Eliakon it would be tricky to set off that spell in a city. Clairvoyants could allow PsiNet nullifiers and negas to intercept you before you could read the whole scroll. Vanguard probably also have energy negate magic talismans and anti magic cloud scrolls to defend the cities.

Whatever Tolkeen could try, Nostrous and Alistair probably have already tried.

Clairvoyants may or may not be able to do it.
That is a laugh though, really.
Because to work it requires the CS to have magical plot armor that works for them, and them alone.

Not really, no.
It just requires the logical consequences of having massive numbers of precogs to include the possibility of stopping some attacks.
"This sometimes works" is all that's necessary, not something that is perfectly infallible.

[Killer Cyborg]

Tolkeen did NOT launch Blight of Ages.

Source?

Tolkeen had the weapons and they chose not to use them.

Be specific here. Are you claiming "Tolkeen chose not to use these weapons?"
Or are you claiming "We are never shown in canon Tolkeen choosing to uses these weapons?"
Because those two are NOT the same thing.

I am sorry but claiming that Tolkeen used a WMD off stage that was never discussed, and it did nothing at all and thus Tolkeen is really evil is...

That's a THIRD claim, one that I didn't make.
Stick to just the two that I asked about, and let me know which one is what you're saying.

Unless you have citations showing Tolkeen choosing not to do these things on moral ground, then the fact that they didn't do it doesn't mean much.

I find it hilarious that you want page specific quotes from your opponents.
But fell free to use what ever you like and interpret it as you see fit when your arguing.[/quote]

If you have a different interpretation for the quotes that I have provided (as opposed to the quotes that you have NOT provided), then feel free to discuss it.
That has nothing to do with whether or not you can back up the claims that you're making.

[Killer Cyborg]

:roll:

Saying "they were just as hate filled" is not the same as "just as evil"

And neither of those things is necessarily semantically the same as "just as bad," if you want to get into it.

Then gee, your claim that the canon says that they ARE just as bad is false then isn't it?

No.
How do you figure...?

By canon,
Tolkeen and the CS are more alike than they are different.
Both are blinded by hate.
Both are blinded by a lust for revenge.
Both are willing to sacrifice their own people to "win."
Both manipulate their people for their own goals.
Both are equally self-serving and ruthless.
Both use slaves as warriors.

You can say that KS wrote all that stuff to show how the CS was more evil than Tolkeen, but I think it's pretty clear that he's pointing out how... well, how they're more alike than they are different.

Still doesn't prove that they are both equally evil.
That is the problem.
You are making a claim that goes beyond what the books state and then trying to claim that the books actually DO state it.

How do you figure...?

Hence
the powers at Tolkeen are nothing more than the other edge of the same blade that is Emperor Prosek and the Coalition States.
and
King Creed has become a reflection of Emperor Karl Prosek

KS isn't talking about fashion sense.
He's not talking about food preferences.
He's repeatedly saying that these two are the same on a moral level.

And this is where you fail
You are making a personal interpretation of the book and then claiming that your personal interpretation is canon.

lol
So... you're going to vote for fashion sense, then...?


Seriously, if you have a different way for canon to reasonably be interpreted, let's hear it!!!

IF Kev wasn't painting the two sides as being morally equivalent there, what exactly do you think he was doing?

After all, Tolkeen did not run death camps where they were executing civilians.

The CS wasn't summoning demons.
(etc. etc. etc.)

The difference between a Demon and a Skelbot is... oh wait there isn't one to the butchered victims.
Except of course for the fact that the CS has millions more of their demons.

Skelebots don't torture people to death for fun.
So... I'd say there's quite a bit of difference there.

(How much do you want to back-and-forth each item, arguing that because they're different they can't be essentially equally immoral?)

Your making a false equivalency with all of this
Your stating that evil is equally evil
That is false
Tolkeen can be evil with out being just as evil as the CS.
Tolkeen can even have fallen to 'reflect' the CS with out having fallen to the same depths as the CS.

If you're going to do this, do it right. Address the actual quotes that I've used:
-Can Tolkeen and the CS be more alike than they are different without being equally evil?
-Can Tolkeen and the CS be equally driven by hate, a lust for revenge, be equally self-serving and ruthless, without being equally evil?
That sort of thing.
Address the specific quotes that I've used.

The CS was the ONLY one with deathcamps
The CS was the ONLY one that deployed WMDs
The CS was the ONLY one that was engaged in genocide

a) Source for all three of those?
b) Capability doesn't affect alignment in Palladium's alignment system, only personality/intent/etc.
Two diabolic people are still diabolic, even if one gets the chance to engage in wholesale slaughter, and the other doesn't.
(You claim that Tolkeen chose not to do the above for moral reasons, but you have yet to support that claim)

Now you can argue that you FEEL that they are equal because you feel that evil is evil.

I won't argue that, and I haven't argued that.
So... maybe quit attacking that particular straw man.

[Killer Cyborg]

I sure wish people would realize that Clairvoyance isn't a precise science.

Me too.
People should realize that there's a percentage chance for success, so the more people you have trying for a specific vision, the higher the probability that one or more psychics will successfully have a vision about that subject.

And they should realize that a percentage chance of success does NOT mean an automatic chance of failure.
And they should realize that "a psychic might not get a useful vision" does NOT mean "no psychic could possibly get a useful vision in time to prevent any one event."

If it was, the powerful masters of psionics could have pinpointed the Four Demons and Seven Dangers, rather than giving relatively vague warnings.
"Yes, a few hundred Mechanoids are going to appear in what used to be Aberdeen!" as opposed to, "Some big devouring swarm, somewhere to the East."

Clairvoyance wasn't the source of the psychic visions.
I don't believe that canon ever addresses using Clairvoyance to detect the precise location of any of those demons.

[Eagle]

The spell that is being talked about is Blight of Ages
It is described as being able to wipe out the crops in Missouri and Iowa.
Now, sure people can homebrew that the CS doesn't really grow crops...
but the books are pretty clear that they CS does, that it has agriculture as a key part of the food and all the rest.

And the spell is HIDEOUSLY effective.
A single casting from one of the Circle of Twelve (say... from a scroll) can affect a radius of anywhere from 8 miles to 120 miles depending on the specifics.

A second WMD is Vicious circle
Again a scroll of this could instantly kill everyone with in a vast area (depending on where it is cast, and by who it could potentially kill everyone within several miles)

These spells could have been used to kill entire cities and utterly destroy the food supply of the CS.
They could have been.
But they weren't
Tolkeen had the weapons and they chose not to use them.
Moreover for at least one of these Tolkeen is explicitly said to be considering using the weapon (Blight of Ages) for this exact purpose (wiping out the CS Crops). So in at least this one example we can clearly state with 100% certainty that K.S. knew of the idea, considered the idea, and then explicitly chose to not have Tolkeen use it.
That right there demonstrates that Tolkeen could have used genocidal tactics... but didn't.

Tolkeen could have given these spells to the Dragon Kings and had the Kings strike with them instead of risk their Shadows in direct combat.
But they didn't

Tolkeen could have simply teleported or flown troops at attacked the cities directly. After all Chi-Town is only a few hours flight time away from Tolkeen and the other cities are not much farther.
But they didn't.

Tolkeen could have done a lot of monstrous things, but they didn't.
Hiring evil troops? Yeah both sides were doing that.
Enslaving troops? The CS has more slave soldiers than the entire population of Tolkeen!
Annihilating entire cities? Only the CS did that
Death camps? Yep, another CS exclusive
Use of WMDs? Oh hey look at that. Only one side did that too.

I don't have time to go over the specifics, I just want to respond generally. Hopefully I'll have time later to address it further, because this post deserves more than a cursory response.

All moral questions aside, Tolkeen pre-siege is in a similar position to North Korea today. They can dig in so deep that it's a royal pain to get them out. But they can't win a prolonged war against determined opposition. And while they've got the ability to project force, and have weapons of mass destruction, actually using those weapons guarantees that their opponent will respond in kind.

Tolkeen built up its military significantly, but it was never in a position where it was actually stronger than the CS. It was always lagging behind. Launching an attack on the CS food supply is not really an option for them. As soon as you do it, you trigger a response. The best you can hope for is a "Pearl Harbor" type attack that puts your opponent on their heels. But with an attack on crops, that's highly unlikely.

It isn't so much of a moral question, but they're not really in a military situation where using that sort of attack would be wise.

[Eagle]

Tolkeen fought almost the entire war on the defensive. Their battle strategy was to make the CS come to them, and fight through their booby-trapped countryside like those two burglars in "Home Alone". Could they have caused droughts that would have severely impacted the CS? Maybe, we aren't really sure how protected the CS food supply is. There have been long threads about how cities feed themselves in Rifts. As far as I know, it isn't that Tolkeen specifically avoided those sorts of tactics, it's just that these tactics aren't mentioned at all and various posters have latched onto it as proof of Tolkeen's refusal to pass a particular moral event horizon. It's like Prosek not having somebody use Object Read to find out if his wife's alive.

The fact that Tolkeen didn't use every possible tactic that a player can come up with is not proof that they actively avoided doing it. It's just another example of Siembieda not realizing they could do that. The intention of the Seige of Tolkeen series, as told to us on the very first page, is to show that they have become just as bad as the Coalition. We're told that in Word of God form as well as through Mary Sue Mouthpiece, Erin Tarn.

As far as wiping out cities, Tolkeen lost. The fact that they were not as powerful, and were not in a position to wipe out cities, does not affect the morality of their actions at all. You can be an evil little bastard even without power (see Stewie Griffin).

Teleporting into Chi-Town? We don't really know much about that. People have used that as an easy example of how to attack the Coalition for years. Personally, I think it's an easy way to get all your characters killed. The inner workings of Chi-Town are like your gamemaster's homebrew D&D dungeon that he made when he was 14. When every door was triple-trapped, and there were instant death rooms every time you turned a corner. We haven't ever received a book on Chi-Town itself, and that means that it's completely up to the GM. We do know that it's a huge fortress full of soldiers and security checkpoints. Jumping into it blind seems a good way to end up dead. And again, just because KS doesn't say anything about it at all, does NOT automatically mean that Tolkeen decided not to pursue attacks like that out of the goodness of their hearts. They very well may have tried it, and it just didn't work. Who knows.


And personally, I think Emperor Prosek's real name is actually like Joe Smith or something. Maybe there's a secret imperial decree that changes the legal names of all the really high up people in the CS regularly. Like every day, Prosek's legal name changes to some string of characters like a computer password. That way when some jerkwad mage tries to spy on him or cast harassment spells (or even really dangerous ones like Death Curse), it doesn't actually target him. Casting a spell on "Karl Prosek" actually goes on some poor convict who has been cosmetically altered to look like the Emperor, but he's really in a prison cell that's been set up to look like a war room. And he's been surrounded by skelebots in Dead Boy armor that are just programmed to salute whenever he says something. "Yes sir!" and then they march through a doorway and then come back ten minutes later.

Chi-Town should be full of stuff like that. Weird protocols and random paranoid security measures that don't seem to make sense on the surface.

first off, i must repeat: this isn't about capability of achieving large-scale success (although tolkeen certainly had some options for inflicting serious damage to various parts of the CS war machine). it's about interest. tolkeen didn't attack *any* civilian targets. they didn't just ignore chi-town, they ignored all the random farms and villages that are scattered across the CS (you know, the part of their population that *isn't* in the megacities or the 'burbs). none of which are as heavily guarded as chi-town, and most of which are likely not really guarded at all. there were targets that they would ignore because it's a bad idea to attack, but there are also plenty of targets they could have hit, which could have made an impact on the war (food, new recruits, factories, etc), and they chose not to attack those targets. they could have hit civilians. they chose not to.

Do we have anything saying that they refused to attack civilian targets, or is it just not mentioned at all? I don't remember anything from the books one way or the other. My recollection was that Tolkeen happily summoned lots and lots of greater demons, and basically told a lot of them "the enemy is that way, go have fun", without any regards for what they would do after their initial engagements with CS forces.

[Axelmania]

Thats right Eagle. That is what they did. See below. I would also like to see any text saying Tolkeen never hit civvies. I have seen proof to the contrary. BELOW.

tolkeen didn't attack *any* civilian targets. they didn't just ignore chi-town, they ignored all the random farms and villages that are scattered across the CS

This is false. See page 116 of Sedition. The village of Northfields was invaded by 6 evil Tolkeen Shifters who summoned 60 possessive entities to inhabit the majority of the population. Only 3 adults are free of control. 36 children are being neglected by their parents due to this.

Worst of all, they have summoned a pair of evil tectonic entities to make poo bodies. How can fertilize crops?

They are explicitly "innocent CS citizens" and "innocent farmers". Not a 1 has ever hurt a mage or D-Bee throughout their entire life.

(you know, the part of their population that *isn't* in the megacities or the 'burbs). none of which are as heavily guarded as chi-town, and most of which are likely not really guarded at all. there were targets that they would ignore because it's a bad idea to attack, but there are also plenty of targets they could have hit, which could have made an impact on the war (food, new recruits, factories, etc), and they chose not to attack those targets. they could have hit civilians. they chose not to.

100% false. See above.
.

@KC: the books tell us that the tolkeenites genuinely thought the daemonix they were summoning had turned over a new leaf. that is certainly mind-blowingly stupid and reckless, but it really isn't the same as summoning the daemonix knowing that they were going to do evil things.

Sense Evil is a widely available power. Tolkeen has people capable of reading minds. They could not feaibly be ignorant. What page says this new leaf stuff? Which Tolkeenites thought this?

Daemonix came out in Overkill. Let's back trace to book 1. Page 140. Black Faeries...

>despise all things of beauty, and will deliberately destroy them.
>the embodiment of envy and hate
>without a drop of morality or compassion
>"slaves" they may have are kept as "playthings" to be abused, brutalized and eventually tortured and killed
>Always Miscreant or Diabolic

Tolkeen's deal?
> allowed to swarm in and have their way with any survivors, torturing, maiming and killing as they deem desirable
>promised to stop their own persecution of the foul creatures
>allow them to gather in swarms up to 80

It isn't just the CS. Anyone who survives battle is fair game. Be it the Tolkeen army or the civilians they are allegedly trying to protect. All they are required to do is battle the CS during the battle. Afterward, free reign.

[Eagle]

Okay, having had a chance to look over Blight of Ages, I'm going to disagree with Eliakon's version of events.

Seige of Tolkeen, book 1, Sedition. Page 37, "The Book of Ten".

In the meantime, Tolkeen has made numerous scroll conversions of the spells of legend within the Book of Ten, and have distributed them far and wide to key leaders and trusted sorcerers throughout the kingdom.

Tolkeen is clearly preparing to use these spells against the CS. There is zero mention of any kind of moral decision not to use them. Moreover, looking at Blight of Ages, it isn't nearly as effective as some have claimed. It has a radius of 100 feet per level, and it grows at 100 feet per level each round, for one minute per level. So a 1st level caster will affect a total radius of 500 feet (100 feet initially, plus 4 rounds at 100 feet each). A 10th level caster will affect a total radius of a little less than 8 miles (1000 feet initially, plus 40 rounds at 1000 feet each). 7.76 miles, actually. Even a 15th level caster is only getting about a 17 mile radius. Now, could proper spamming of this wipe out huge areas of crops? Sure. But the state of Iowa is 56 thousand square miles. You'd have to have 560 scrolls, each cast by a 15th level caster. Or over 1000 scrolls, each cast by a 10th level caster. It's a massive undertaking.

[Killer Cyborg]

@KC: the books tell us that the tolkeenites genuinely thought the daemonix they were summoning had turned over a new leaf. that is certainly mind-blowingly stupid and reckless, but it really isn't the same as summoning the daemonix knowing that they were going to do evil things.

I haven't brought up the daemonix yet, so I'm not sure what this is in reference to.

I've been referring to the Greater Demons, Imps, Gargoyles, Brodkil, Witchlings, Black Faeries, Thornheads, and Neuron Beasts that Tolkeen has been actively recruiting according to CW1 139, as well as the lesser demons summoned and enslaved by Tolkeen.

Since some of the duties of these monsters is specifically to torture people, and they're openly allowed to torture and kill enemy survivors after a battle, I don't think that it can be reasonably claimed that Tolkeen isn't aware that the monsters are doing evil things.

[dreicunan]

Okay, having had a chance to look over Blight of Ages, I'm going to disagree with Eliakon's version of events.

Seige of Tolkeen, book 1, Sedition. Page 37, "The Book of Ten".

In the meantime, Tolkeen has made numerous scroll conversions of the spells of legend within the Book of Ten, and have distributed them far and wide to key leaders and trusted sorcerers throughout the kingdom.

Tolkeen is clearly preparing to use these spells against the CS. There is zero mention of any kind of moral decision not to use them. Moreover, looking at Blight of Ages, it isn't nearly as effective as some have claimed. It has a radius of 100 feet per level, and it grows at 100 feet per level each round, for one minute per level. So a 1st level caster will affect a total radius of 500 feet (100 feet initially, plus 4 rounds at 100 feet each). A 10th level caster will affect a total radius of a little less than 8 miles (1000 feet initially, plus 40 rounds at 1000 feet each). 7.76 miles, actually. Even a 15th level caster is only getting about a 17 mile radius. Now, could proper spamming of this wipe out huge areas of crops? Sure. But the state of Iowa is 56 thousand square miles. You'd have to have 560 scrolls, each cast by a 15th level caster. Or over 1000 scrolls, each cast by a 10th level caster. It's a massive undertaking.

It's also worth noting that nothing stops the CS from just planting more crops. The spell doesn't salt the earth. It just kills what is currently there. The ground is reusable immediately. It would cause a major inconvenience, but it would take repeated attacks to actually cause significant damage, and to maximize damage you actually have to be in fairly predictable locations, which means the Vanguard are going to notice what's happening and get you sooner or later.

[Eagle]

Okay, having had a chance to look over Blight of Ages, I'm going to disagree with Eliakon's version of events.

Seige of Tolkeen, book 1, Sedition. Page 37, "The Book of Ten".

In the meantime, Tolkeen has made numerous scroll conversions of the spells of legend within the Book of Ten, and have distributed them far and wide to key leaders and trusted sorcerers throughout the kingdom.

Tolkeen is clearly preparing to use these spells against the CS. There is zero mention of any kind of moral decision not to use them. Moreover, looking at Blight of Ages, it isn't nearly as effective as some have claimed. It has a radius of 100 feet per level, and it grows at 100 feet per level each round, for one minute per level. So a 1st level caster will affect a total radius of 500 feet (100 feet initially, plus 4 rounds at 100 feet each). A 10th level caster will affect a total radius of a little less than 8 miles (1000 feet initially, plus 40 rounds at 1000 feet each). 7.76 miles, actually. Even a 15th level caster is only getting about a 17 mile radius. Now, could proper spamming of this wipe out huge areas of crops? Sure. But the state of Iowa is 56 thousand square miles. You'd have to have 560 scrolls, each cast by a 15th level caster. Or over 1000 scrolls, each cast by a 10th level caster. It's a massive undertaking.

It's also worth noting that nothing stops the CS from just planting more crops. The spell doesn't salt the earth. It just kills what is currently there. The ground is reusable immediately. It would cause a major inconvenience, but it would take repeated attacks to actually cause significant damage, and to maximize damage you actually have to be in fairly predictable locations, which means the Vanguard are going to notice what's happening and get you sooner or later.

Honestly the best defense against things like this are SAMAS patrols. If you've got them flying over your area with some regularity, you should encounter some of these casters just by random chance. Half a dozen SAMs see a group of mages and D-Bees down on the ground, doing something? Launch a full spread of mini-missiles and open fire with your rail guns, no questions asked. Circle above them at a couple of thousand feet and fire until you run out of ammo. You'll kill quite a few casters that way. Yeah, some of them might be able to teleport away, but not every group that wanders into Coalition territory looking to cause trouble is going to have the PPE available, or the spell knowledge, to get away that fast.

The idea that Tolkeen has been churning out magical scrolls that have Spells of Legend written on them, with area effects that stretch for miles, makes it much more understandable that the Coalition would take a "kill them all" stance on groups that have a mage with them.

[boring7]

Asymmetric warfare is where magic excels. The only reason the group with teleportation, invisibility, death-blights and mega-mage-plagues doesn't faceroll everything is plot armor. And that's fine, it would be boring if the "magical amish" of the CS and their fear/hatred of the best counter to magic were just beaten by their own self-crippling.

But it's still plot armor.

As for "whose more evil"? The answer is clearly "The Coalition" but it's just as clear it wasn't supposed to be. Word of god (via Erin Tarn) is that the mad, evil kings of Tolkeen were JUST AS BAD as the mad monsters of the CS...but it doesn't sell. The Coalition started the war, the Coalition spent decades refusing and murdering ambassadors, the Coalition burned civilian towns for funsies (weapons tests), the Coalition was slowly pressing Tolkeen back and demanding an impossible retreat (as in 'get off the planet') or annihilation, and the Coalition had a pile of dead kids at their feet.

Tolkeen used demons, which is supposed to be horrific beyond measure...except PCs can do that without being particularly evil. Tolkeen slaughtered its foes...except they were under colors and arms, legitimate military targets. Tolkeen refused to back down...because it was their home. Tolkeen lied to itself about its chances...except the Sorcerer's Revenge proved that an alliance of CS neighbors should have been able to conquer Chi-town. Tolkeen was unreasonable and monstrous...except most of their "monsterings" were just sound tactics (bringing as much force to bear as possible to ensure victory, trying to get help from allies like FQ).

The one that always sticks in my mind is the betrayal by Quebec. A bunch of Glitterboys stabbed people in the back, LOST the battle anyway because they were outnumbered and outgunned, basically were the worst brand of stupid-evil...and the clear moral of that story from the tone the author used was that Tolkeen totally had it coming and were the real monsters for fighting back against someone that betrayed them.

In fact, it's like a microcosm of the whole Tolkeen War: Bully comes along and starts punching you in the face, and it's your fault for not running away while he keeps hitting you until he finally gets tired of running and hitting. Someone with authority is telling you, 'no, you need to take those hits while running as fast as you can or you're JUST AS BAD as that bully' but you're just not convinced by that argument.

Now a quick detour into WMDs of magic and non-magic varieties...

Chi-town has "entire states go poof" nukes. The downside is the fallout (which Rifts has rather abysmal rules for) and the fact that you did MD to an entire state and anything you wanted to steal in it...also the enemy ARMY was wearing MDC armor so they're alive, homeless, and left with nothing but thoughts of bloody revenge.

Tolkeen has a number of methods, all of which require rather simple-level covert ops (all-but NOTHING flies super-sonic, invisibility to everything including radar is cheap and easy) but have major consequences. The Drought spell, cast by a level 6 character, changes the balmy 73 degree growing season to a deadly 133 degree "go outside and die in minutes" zone of ~720m radius. With no ability to dispel it the following wildfires will also destroy the surrounding area far and wide. All to say nothing of grabbing a few nukes (magical or conventional) and using teleport to drop them on enemy's heads. Sure there's a (insert number here) percent chance of instant death with those wild teleport insertions...but that's not so different from a conventional airstrike, except you plant bigger booms and place them more precisely. But again, you end up with an army that has nothing left to lose and minimal damage to their armor within walking distance of you. Not ideal.

SAMAS patrols won't stop a covert team, targets will hear them coming and go invisible, then watch as the random civilians get misted instead. "We're heavily armed and heavily patrolled" won't stop teleporters, they'll have delivered the bomb (or "bomb") and teleported away before you even crack their first magic force field. And in the Coalition's favor, nothing is going to stop the 20 megaton warhead ICBM either.

Well maybe the magic triangle force field, but that thing was crazy-go-nuts powerful, hell, there's a video game series based on the concept.

But MAD doesn't let you have a ground war, so ALL that stuff got stripped out. This favored the CS a bit, but whatever.

As for doom-scrolls...yeah. Thing is scrolls don't take that long to make. You need the spell, you need a ley-line, you need a few minutes (maybe an hour). You don't even need super-mega-legend spells. You just need to sniff around the spell lists and find something with creative applications. Giant + magic adrenal rush + a zombie; the Drought spell; heck, even the Dig spell is scary in the right situation. It's only a serious problem if you're terrified of magic and, like mennonite farmers or the last Samurai in the 1800s, refuse to adapt to the new reality or adopt tools to use/block what you are facing.

[Shark_Force]

I don't have time to go over the specifics, I just want to respond generally. Hopefully I'll have time later to address it further, because this post deserves more than a cursory response.

All moral questions aside, Tolkeen pre-siege is in a similar position to North Korea today. They can dig in so deep that it's a royal pain to get them out. But they can't win a prolonged war against determined opposition. And while they've got the ability to project force, and have weapons of mass destruction, actually using those weapons guarantees that their opponent will respond in kind.

Tolkeen built up its military significantly, but it was never in a position where it was actually stronger than the CS. It was always lagging behind. Launching an attack on the CS food supply is not really an option for them. As soon as you do it, you trigger a response. The best you can hope for is a "Pearl Harbor" type attack that puts your opponent on their heels. But with an attack on crops, that's highly unlikely.

It isn't so much of a moral question, but they're not really in a military situation where using that sort of attack would be wise.

the CS was already planning to murder every single person in the kingdom that they could get their hands on. what exactly is it that you think tolkeen was so afraid of provoking that the CS would have hesitated to use before?

[dreicunan]

Asymmetric warfare is where magic excels. The only reason the group with teleportation, invisibility, death-blights and mega-mage-plagues doesn't faceroll everything is plot armor. And that's fine, it would be boring if the "magical amish" of the CS and their fear/hatred of the best counter to magic were just beaten by their own self-crippling.

But it's still plot armor.

As for "whose more evil"? The answer is clearly "The Coalition" but it's just as clear it wasn't supposed to be. Word of god (via Erin Tarn) is that the mad, evil kings of Tolkeen were JUST AS BAD as the mad monsters of the CS...but it doesn't sell. The Coalition started the war, the Coalition spent decades refusing and murdering ambassadors, the Coalition burned civilian towns for funsies (weapons tests), the Coalition was slowly pressing Tolkeen back and demanding an impossible retreat (as in 'get off the planet') or annihilation, and the Coalition had a pile of dead kids at their feet.

Tolkeen used demons, which is supposed to be horrific beyond measure...except PCs can do that without being particularly evil. Tolkeen slaughtered its foes...except they were under colors and arms, legitimate military targets. Tolkeen refused to back down...because it was their home. Tolkeen lied to itself about its chances...except the Sorcerer's Revenge proved that an alliance of CS neighbors should have been able to conquer Chi-town. Tolkeen was unreasonable and monstrous...except most of their "monsterings" were just sound tactics (bringing as much force to bear as possible to ensure victory, trying to get help from allies like FQ).

The one that always sticks in my mind is the betrayal by Quebec. A bunch of Glitterboys stabbed people in the back, LOST the battle anyway because they were outnumbered and outgunned, basically were the worst brand of stupid-evil...and the clear moral of that story from the tone the author used was that Tolkeen totally had it coming and were the real monsters for fighting back against someone that betrayed them.

In fact, it's like a microcosm of the whole Tolkeen War: Bully comes along and starts punching you in the face, and it's your fault for not running away while he keeps hitting you until he finally gets tired of running and hitting. Someone with authority is telling you, 'no, you need to take those hits while running as fast as you can or you're JUST AS BAD as that bully' but you're just not convinced by that argument.

Now a quick detour into WMDs of magic and non-magic varieties...

Chi-town has "entire states go poof" nukes. The downside is the fallout (which Rifts has rather abysmal rules for) and the fact that you did MD to an entire state and anything you wanted to steal in it...also the enemy ARMY was wearing MDC armor so they're alive, homeless, and left with nothing but thoughts of bloody revenge.

Tolkeen has a number of methods, all of which require rather simple-level covert ops (all-but NOTHING flies super-sonic, invisibility to everything including radar is cheap and easy) but have major consequences. The Drought spell, cast by a level 6 character, changes the balmy 73 degree growing season to a deadly 133 degree "go outside and die in minutes" zone of ~720m radius. With no ability to dispel it the following wildfires will also destroy the surrounding area far and wide. All to say nothing of grabbing a few nukes (magical or conventional) and using teleport to drop them on enemy's heads. Sure there's a (insert number here) percent chance of instant death with those wild teleport insertions...but that's not so different from a conventional airstrike, except you plant bigger booms and place them more precisely. But again, you end up with an army that has nothing left to lose and minimal damage to their armor within walking distance of you. Not ideal.

SAMAS patrols won't stop a covert team, targets will hear them coming and go invisible, then watch as the random civilians get misted instead. "We're heavily armed and heavily patrolled" won't stop teleporters, they'll have delivered the bomb (or "bomb") and teleported away before you even crack their first magic force field. And in the Coalition's favor, nothing is going to stop the 20 megaton warhead ICBM either.

Well maybe the magic triangle force field, but that thing was crazy-go-nuts powerful, hell, there's a video game series based on the concept.

But MAD doesn't let you have a ground war, so ALL that stuff got stripped out. This favored the CS a bit, but whatever.

As for doom-scrolls...yeah. Thing is scrolls don't take that long to make. You need the spell, you need a ley-line, you need a few minutes (maybe an hour). You don't even need super-mega-legend spells. You just need to sniff around the spell lists and find something with creative applications. Giant + magic adrenal rush + a zombie; the Drought spell; heck, even the Dig spell is scary in the right situation. It's only a serious problem if you're terrified of magic and, like mennonite farmers or the last Samurai in the 1800s, refuse to adapt to the new reality or adopt tools to use/block what you are facing.

The Vanguard had about 500 agents infiltrates into Tolkeen messing with Tolkeen's plans. There may well have been magic users running around popping off Drought and others spells. Are they hanging around after they cast the spell? Because if not, then I am betting that the Vanguard shows up, negate magic, and problem solved.

[Axelmania]

Since some of the duties of these monsters is specifically to torture people, and they're openly allowed to torture and kill enemy survivors after a battle, I don't think that it can be reasonably claimed that Tolkeen isn't aware that the monsters are doing evil things
.

Its actually worse. It says ANY survivors, not enemy survivors.

the CS was already planning to murder every single person in the kingdom that they could get their hands on. what exactly is it that you think tolkeen was so afraid of provoking that the CS would have hesitated to use before?

Nukes? Biological warfare? Dunno.

Where is it stated that the CS as an entity wants to kill everyone?

Certain towns on the path to the twin cities were targeted with "spare none" tactics but Tolkeen claims all of Minnesota and I see no indication the CS plans to wipe out every human in the state.

If murder was the aim why would they even bother with imprisoning people in camps when it is faster to vibro blade them?

[boring7]

The Vanguard had about 500 agents infiltrates into Tolkeen messing with Tolkeen's plans. There may well have been magic users running around popping off Drought and others spells. Are they hanging around after they cast the spell? Because if not, then I am betting that the Vanguard shows up, negate magic, and problem solved.

Vanguard can take care of any long-standing problem, however:
-Vanguard has to find the problem (which will take a while),
-Vanguard has to get to the problem without being murdered by CS agents (take time and luck/skill)
-Vanguard has to solve the problem without getting caught and escape (which takes time and effort)

It puts a time limit on what magical assaults Tolkeen could use (just making up numbers: 16 hours?) but there are still a LOT of tricks that can work within those parameters. Dam-busting, crop-blighting, just placing a conventional WMD in a cityand teleporting away. But those options weren't even options; because at best it turns the game into ninjas & superspies, at worst it ends all semblance of a game.

Mind you, a Cold War between Chi-town and Tolkeen could be an interesting metaplot with infiltration and adventure, oh wait that already exists with FoM and no one does much with it.

[Shark_Force]

The Vanguard had about 500 agents infiltrates into Tolkeen messing with Tolkeen's plans. There may well have been magic users running around popping off Drought and others spells. Are they hanging around after they cast the spell? Because if not, then I am betting that the Vanguard shows up, negate magic, and problem solved.

Vanguard can take care of any long-standing problem, however:
-Vanguard has to find the problem (which will take a while),
-Vanguard has to get to the problem without being murdered by CS agents (take time and luck/skill)
-Vanguard has to solve the problem without getting caught and escape (which takes time and effort)

It puts a time limit on what magical assaults Tolkeen could use (just making up numbers: 16 hours?) but there are still a LOT of tricks that can work within those parameters. Dam-busting, crop-blighting, just placing a conventional WMD in a cityand teleporting away. But those options weren't even options; because at best it turns the game into ninjas & superspies, at worst it ends all semblance of a game.

Mind you, a Cold War between Chi-town and Tolkeen could be an interesting metaplot with infiltration and adventure, oh wait that already exists with FoM and no one does much with it.

ironically, it's probably a lot harder for the vanguard to negate than it is for tolkeen to put in place... because after tolkeen strikes, that location is no longer an unremarkable location of no particular importance, it's the place where an enemy attacked, and it's probably got dog boys as well as regular troops all over the place hoping to track down the mage responsible

good luck just pretending to be an ordinary citizen walking into the place where someone used a drought spell or something...

[HWalsh]

Where is it stated that the CS as an entity wants to kill everyone?

HoH outright says it.

[Axelmania]

Page? Everyone in the kingdom would include all CS Grunts occupying. Perhaps it says somewhere everyone not part of CS or mercs working for them?

[boring7]

ironically, it's probably a lot harder for the vanguard to negate than it is for tolkeen to put in place... because after tolkeen strikes, that location is no longer an unremarkable location of no particular importance, it's the place where an enemy attacked, and it's probably got dog boys as well as regular troops all over the place hoping to track down the mage responsible

good luck just pretending to be an ordinary citizen walking into the place where someone used a drought spell or something...

Hell, good luck being an ordinary citizen walking anywhere near the place. Which makes attacks that much more effective.

But yeah, it's always harder fixing than breaking, which is why the Vanguard's stated cause is "exterminate all aliens" rather than "protect humans from aliens." (page 14). They spend most of their time plotting and enacting terrorist attacks outside the CS rather than protecting the inside.

Funny thing, if HoH states "there are no more Dbees and magic users in the 'burbs after the night of forgiveness" that means the Vanguard is either completely dead or run out. Though Disavowed could bring them back in...if the writers remember the Vanguard was a thing.

[Axelmania]

I haven't found any statement like that in HOH. It mentions thousands of dbees were killed. Nothing about all mages or all dbees being gone.

Vanguard are vey streetwise. If any mages could escape the purge it would be them.

They have master psi members. This might include psiNet and NTSET double agents.

[Nightmask]

Okay, having had a chance to look over Blight of Ages, I'm going to disagree with Eliakon's version of events.

Seige of Tolkeen, book 1, Sedition. Page 37, "The Book of Ten".

In the meantime, Tolkeen has made numerous scroll conversions of the spells of legend within the Book of Ten, and have distributed them far and wide to key leaders and trusted sorcerers throughout the kingdom.

Tolkeen is clearly preparing to use these spells against the CS. There is zero mention of any kind of moral decision not to use them. Moreover, looking at Blight of Ages, it isn't nearly as effective as some have claimed. It has a radius of 100 feet per level, and it grows at 100 feet per level each round, for one minute per level. So a 1st level caster will affect a total radius of 500 feet (100 feet initially, plus 4 rounds at 100 feet each). A 10th level caster will affect a total radius of a little less than 8 miles (1000 feet initially, plus 40 rounds at 1000 feet each). 7.76 miles, actually. Even a 15th level caster is only getting about a 17 mile radius. Now, could proper spamming of this wipe out huge areas of crops? Sure. But the state of Iowa is 56 thousand square miles. You'd have to have 560 scrolls, each cast by a 15th level caster. Or over 1000 scrolls, each cast by a 10th level caster. It's a massive undertaking.

You can't actually claim that, just because they created the scrolls and assigned them to various people you can't claim that they were actually preparing to use them, nor does it matter if they were considering it because they didn't. None of the people entrusted with the scrolls made use of them otherwise we'd see mention of that.

[Nightmask]

Okay, having had a chance to look over Blight of Ages, I'm going to disagree with Eliakon's version of events.

Seige of Tolkeen, book 1, Sedition. Page 37, "The Book of Ten".

In the meantime, Tolkeen has made numerous scroll conversions of the spells of legend within the Book of Ten, and have distributed them far and wide to key leaders and trusted sorcerers throughout the kingdom.

Tolkeen is clearly preparing to use these spells against the CS. There is zero mention of any kind of moral decision not to use them. Moreover, looking at Blight of Ages, it isn't nearly as effective as some have claimed. It has a radius of 100 feet per level, and it grows at 100 feet per level each round, for one minute per level. So a 1st level caster will affect a total radius of 500 feet (100 feet initially, plus 4 rounds at 100 feet each). A 10th level caster will affect a total radius of a little less than 8 miles (1000 feet initially, plus 40 rounds at 1000 feet each). 7.76 miles, actually. Even a 15th level caster is only getting about a 17 mile radius. Now, could proper spamming of this wipe out huge areas of crops? Sure. But the state of Iowa is 56 thousand square miles. You'd have to have 560 scrolls, each cast by a 15th level caster. Or over 1000 scrolls, each cast by a 10th level caster. It's a massive undertaking.

It's also worth noting that nothing stops the CS from just planting more crops. The spell doesn't salt the earth. It just kills what is currently there. The ground is reusable immediately. It would cause a major inconvenience, but it would take repeated attacks to actually cause significant damage, and to maximize damage you actually have to be in fairly predictable locations, which means the Vanguard are going to notice what's happening and get you sooner or later.

Uh no, definitely no, most emphatically no. It would not have been an inconvenience, minor or major, it would have been mass starvation and death. Apparently you don't realize this but it takes months to grow crops, you know what happens when people don't have food for months? They starve to death. There's no way everybody's got food stockpiled to where they can cover their entire population for months until new crops grow in, for which do remember it won't be JUST the people starving it'll be the farm animals that are starving as well, starving and dying. Even a magic-using community with ready access to Sustain would require some really good planning to try and use it to keep their population alive in a food shortage like that and a tech-based one wouldn't have much hope at all.

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay, having had a chance to look over Blight of Ages, I'm going to disagree with Eliakon's version of events.

Seige of Tolkeen, book 1, Sedition. Page 37, "The Book of Ten".

In the meantime, Tolkeen has made numerous scroll conversions of the spells of legend within the Book of Ten, and have distributed them far and wide to key leaders and trusted sorcerers throughout the kingdom.

Tolkeen is clearly preparing to use these spells against the CS. There is zero mention of any kind of moral decision not to use them. Moreover, looking at Blight of Ages, it isn't nearly as effective as some have claimed. It has a radius of 100 feet per level, and it grows at 100 feet per level each round, for one minute per level. So a 1st level caster will affect a total radius of 500 feet (100 feet initially, plus 4 rounds at 100 feet each). A 10th level caster will affect a total radius of a little less than 8 miles (1000 feet initially, plus 40 rounds at 1000 feet each). 7.76 miles, actually. Even a 15th level caster is only getting about a 17 mile radius. Now, could proper spamming of this wipe out huge areas of crops? Sure. But the state of Iowa is 56 thousand square miles. You'd have to have 560 scrolls, each cast by a 15th level caster. Or over 1000 scrolls, each cast by a 10th level caster. It's a massive undertaking.

It's also worth noting that nothing stops the CS from just planting more crops. The spell doesn't salt the earth. It just kills what is currently there. The ground is reusable immediately. It would cause a major inconvenience, but it would take repeated attacks to actually cause significant damage, and to maximize damage you actually have to be in fairly predictable locations, which means the Vanguard are going to notice what's happening and get you sooner or later.

Uh no, definitely no, most emphatically no. It would not have been an inconvenience, minor or major, it would have been mass starvation and death. Apparently you don't realize this but it takes months to grow crops, you know what happens when people don't have food for months? They starve to death.

Makes sense. Depends a bit on the timing; if the CS just planted, then are hit with blight spells, then they could recover. If it's almost harvest time, then they'll be set back months.
It comes down to the timing of the attacks.

There's no way everybody's got food stockpiled to where they can cover their entire population for months until new crops grow in

Source?

[Killer Cyborg]

You can't actually claim that, just because they created the scrolls and assigned them to various people you can't claim that they were actually preparing to use them,

Uh... that seems like preparation to me.
What do YOU consider to be preparation...?

nor does it matter if they were considering it because they didn't. None of the people entrusted with the scrolls made use of them otherwise we'd see mention of that.

Do you have any source other than "we're not actively shown this happening?"

[dreicunan]

Okay, having had a chance to look over Blight of Ages, I'm going to disagree with Eliakon's version of events.

Seige of Tolkeen, book 1, Sedition. Page 37, "The Book of Ten".

In the meantime, Tolkeen has made numerous scroll conversions of the spells of legend within the Book of Ten, and have distributed them far and wide to key leaders and trusted sorcerers throughout the kingdom.

Tolkeen is clearly preparing to use these spells against the CS. There is zero mention of any kind of moral decision not to use them. Moreover, looking at Blight of Ages, it isn't nearly as effective as some have claimed. It has a radius of 100 feet per level, and it grows at 100 feet per level each round, for one minute per level. So a 1st level caster will affect a total radius of 500 feet (100 feet initially, plus 4 rounds at 100 feet each). A 10th level caster will affect a total radius of a little less than 8 miles (1000 feet initially, plus 40 rounds at 1000 feet each). 7.76 miles, actually. Even a 15th level caster is only getting about a 17 mile radius. Now, could proper spamming of this wipe out huge areas of crops? Sure. But the state of Iowa is 56 thousand square miles. You'd have to have 560 scrolls, each cast by a 15th level caster. Or over 1000 scrolls, each cast by a 10th level caster. It's a massive undertaking.

It's also worth noting that nothing stops the CS from just planting more crops. The spell doesn't salt the earth. It just kills what is currently there. The ground is reusable immediately. It would cause a major inconvenience, but it would take repeated attacks to actually cause significant damage, and to maximize damage you actually have to be in fairly predictable locations, which means the Vanguard are going to notice what's happening and get you sooner or later.

Uh no, definitely no, most emphatically no. It would not have been an inconvenience, minor or major, it would have been mass starvation and death. Apparently you don't realize this but it takes months to grow crops, you know what happens when people don't have food for months? They starve to death. There's no way everybody's got food stockpiled to where they can cover their entire population for months until new crops grow in, for which do remember it won't be JUST the people starving it'll be the farm animals that are starving as well, starving and dying. Even a magic-using community with ready access to Sustain would require some really good planning to try and use it to keep their population alive in a food shortage like that and a tech-based one wouldn't have much hope at all.

I am aware of how long it takes to grow crops. Are you aware that the Coalition is not run by incompetent buffoons? You honestly think that a society capable of stockpiling 3.2 million old style SAMAS doesn't bother keeping stores of food available? While not everybody would have food stockpiled to last for months, the Coalition most certainly would! I'd be shocked if they didn't have enough stored away for the military and citizens to last for years. We know that they think about food supply issues, because the CS is using subtle genetic engineering on both cattle and crops. It is ludicrous to assume that the CS, the stockpilers of 3.2 million SAMAS alone, would not have adequate food stores to survive this kind of a tactic. Karl Prosek may be an evil megalomaniac, but it is made quite clear that he is a historian of Earth's history and very good at what he does. He'd know how important food is, and he'd take steps to ensure that the CS could survive food supply problems, because he'd know from history that empires need to be well-fed if you want them to survive and thrive.

[Eagle]

Okay, having had a chance to look over Blight of Ages, I'm going to disagree with Eliakon's version of events.

Seige of Tolkeen, book 1, Sedition. Page 37, "The Book of Ten".

In the meantime, Tolkeen has made numerous scroll conversions of the spells of legend within the Book of Ten, and have distributed them far and wide to key leaders and trusted sorcerers throughout the kingdom.

Tolkeen is clearly preparing to use these spells against the CS. There is zero mention of any kind of moral decision not to use them. Moreover, looking at Blight of Ages, it isn't nearly as effective as some have claimed. It has a radius of 100 feet per level, and it grows at 100 feet per level each round, for one minute per level. So a 1st level caster will affect a total radius of 500 feet (100 feet initially, plus 4 rounds at 100 feet each). A 10th level caster will affect a total radius of a little less than 8 miles (1000 feet initially, plus 40 rounds at 1000 feet each). 7.76 miles, actually. Even a 15th level caster is only getting about a 17 mile radius. Now, could proper spamming of this wipe out huge areas of crops? Sure. But the state of Iowa is 56 thousand square miles. You'd have to have 560 scrolls, each cast by a 15th level caster. Or over 1000 scrolls, each cast by a 10th level caster. It's a massive undertaking.

You can't actually claim that, just because they created the scrolls and assigned them to various people you can't claim that they were actually preparing to use them, nor does it matter if they were considering it because they didn't. None of the people entrusted with the scrolls made use of them otherwise we'd see mention of that.

I can absolutely conclude that. They spread those scrolls around to all sorts of people in preparation for war. We are told nothing else about it at all. We aren't told that they did use them, but we aren't told that they didn't either. We aren't told if they were effective, we aren't told what happened with them at all.

There are any number of possible explanations. 1) They could have used the scrolls and had some degree of success against the CS that simply isn't specified in the books. 2) They could have used the scrolls and found that they were ineffective against the CS for whatever reason (mages caught by patrols, large pre-existing food storage, whatever). 3) They could have not used the scrolls because of some moral code. 4) They could have not used the scrolls because they were suddenly on the defensive and they decided it wasn't going to be strategically effective. 5) A handful of guys could have used them to wipe out the food production of a few small towns, but Tolkeen lacked the coordination to seriously effect the Coalition's food production as a whole.

We really don't know what happened. We know they distributed scrolls of spells that affected very large areas, and we are given no further information at all. You can come up with whatever explanation you want as to why that is, but you cannot insist that your explanation is canon for everyone else.

[Eagle]

Okay, having had a chance to look over Blight of Ages, I'm going to disagree with Eliakon's version of events.

Seige of Tolkeen, book 1, Sedition. Page 37, "The Book of Ten".

In the meantime, Tolkeen has made numerous scroll conversions of the spells of legend within the Book of Ten, and have distributed them far and wide to key leaders and trusted sorcerers throughout the kingdom.

Tolkeen is clearly preparing to use these spells against the CS. There is zero mention of any kind of moral decision not to use them. Moreover, looking at Blight of Ages, it isn't nearly as effective as some have claimed. It has a radius of 100 feet per level, and it grows at 100 feet per level each round, for one minute per level. So a 1st level caster will affect a total radius of 500 feet (100 feet initially, plus 4 rounds at 100 feet each). A 10th level caster will affect a total radius of a little less than 8 miles (1000 feet initially, plus 40 rounds at 1000 feet each). 7.76 miles, actually. Even a 15th level caster is only getting about a 17 mile radius. Now, could proper spamming of this wipe out huge areas of crops? Sure. But the state of Iowa is 56 thousand square miles. You'd have to have 560 scrolls, each cast by a 15th level caster. Or over 1000 scrolls, each cast by a 10th level caster. It's a massive undertaking.

It's also worth noting that nothing stops the CS from just planting more crops. The spell doesn't salt the earth. It just kills what is currently there. The ground is reusable immediately. It would cause a major inconvenience, but it would take repeated attacks to actually cause significant damage, and to maximize damage you actually have to be in fairly predictable locations, which means the Vanguard are going to notice what's happening and get you sooner or later.

Uh no, definitely no, most emphatically no. It would not have been an inconvenience, minor or major, it would have been mass starvation and death. Apparently you don't realize this but it takes months to grow crops, you know what happens when people don't have food for months? They starve to death. There's no way everybody's got food stockpiled to where they can cover their entire population for months until new crops grow in, for which do remember it won't be JUST the people starving it'll be the farm animals that are starving as well, starving and dying. Even a magic-using community with ready access to Sustain would require some really good planning to try and use it to keep their population alive in a food shortage like that and a tech-based one wouldn't have much hope at all.

The Coalition has any number of possible food sources. Let's review some basic ones that wouldn't require any "pull magic stuff out of your butt" maneuvers.

1) They are allied to any number of human-centric kingdoms. There's nothing stopping them from trading for food with the NGR, or with Canada or small independent towns in the US. It would be tough to feed the entire Coalition with just what you get from trade, but it could still offset quite a bit of the loss that would come from an attack on CS farmland.

2) They can get a lot of food just by fishing the Great Lakes. Sure, while there are sea monsters and stuff there, there's nothing to indicate that the lakes are any more dangerous than the countryside they regularly farm. The Great Lakes should be a lot less polluted than they are today, and people still fish there now. That's an enormous source of fresh fish.

3) Herds of grazing animals throughout the West are available. Buffalo and other natural species should have seen their populations go through the roof with the disappearance of humans from much of the area. We know that the New West has Cowboy OCCs. Cowboys tend herds (that's why they're called that). If the Coalition desperately needs food, you'd see a huge market appear for dinosaur meat and other herding animals. Those guys will bring food to you, if the market is there. CS soldiers don't have to go out and get it.

4) Greenhouses and other artificial farms (like these: http://cropbox.co/ and these: http://www.growtainers.com/ and these: https://www.freightfarms.com/ ). They're easy enough to build today, but they're expensive because you're paying for electricity to generate light instead of using all that sunlight you normally get for free. In a post-apocalyptic environment where you have nuclear reactors that fit in power armor, electricity in a fortress city is not as big a concern.

5) Large scale food storage that the hoarder-mentality Coalition may have already done. Canned food lasts for years and years, and the Coalition appears to have been prepping for this war for a long time. Their cities are basically giant survivalist bunkers. How much food do they already have tucked away in there?


That doesn't even get into how difficult it would be to coordinate attacks all across the CS' farm belt. To pull off an effective crop-kill attack, something that would really hit most of the CS' food production, you'd need dozens of high level mages who were content to just sit and scribe scrolls for weeks. You're talking about Lvl 10+ guys who just sit on Ley Lines, drawing energy, and then writing Blight of Ages and Teleport Superior scrolls over and over and over again. Earlier I mentioned it would take 1,000 scrolls from Lvl 10 casters to cover all of Iowa. And that's just Iowa. Iowa and Illinois together are 114,000 square miles. Missouri is almost 70,000 by itself. Arkansas is 53,000. So those 4 states (so entirely Coalition or mostly Coalition) are 237,000 square miles. That's over 4,700 scrolls just to clear that area once. And then you've got to teleport guys back and forth to effectively use it, so add two Teleport Superior scrolls for each Blight spell. And you're going to have to keep doing this throughout the war. That's not counting Texas, which is partly Coalition controlled (and yes, food does grow there).

Now, not all of this area is farmland, but you have to be prepared to cover most of it unless you have very precise maps of everywhere the CS grows food. It also doesn't take into account CS assets in Michigan or modern Canada. The level of coordination required to strike like this may be significantly beyond Tolkeen's abilities. We haven't seen them pull anything of this scale off. Mostly their wizards seem to operate like small, independent strike forces that go where they want and do what they want. Lack of coordination and organization is a running theme throughout the series for Tolkeen. Zartan the Magnificent, 11th level Line Walker, is perfectly happy to run off and kill CS soldiers, but he doesn't take orders with a damn. And he sure doesn't want to teleport to the middle of a cornfield and kill crops when he could be blowing up a Death's Head transport.

Again, just because Tolkeen theoretically had the ability to strike at the Coalition in this way, doesn't mean that they could realistically put it into effect. And it doesn't mean that the CS doesn't have available countermeasures against such an attack. Not only might it be too difficult to pull off, it might not work even if you did. If Tolkeen decided not to go with such an attack, it doesn't mean that they did so because of their greater moral code. It might have just been too hard.

[Nightmask]

Okay, having had a chance to look over Blight of Ages, I'm going to disagree with Eliakon's version of events.

Seige of Tolkeen, book 1, Sedition. Page 37, "The Book of Ten".

In the meantime, Tolkeen has made numerous scroll conversions of the spells of legend within the Book of Ten, and have distributed them far and wide to key leaders and trusted sorcerers throughout the kingdom.

Tolkeen is clearly preparing to use these spells against the CS. There is zero mention of any kind of moral decision not to use them. Moreover, looking at Blight of Ages, it isn't nearly as effective as some have claimed. It has a radius of 100 feet per level, and it grows at 100 feet per level each round, for one minute per level. So a 1st level caster will affect a total radius of 500 feet (100 feet initially, plus 4 rounds at 100 feet each). A 10th level caster will affect a total radius of a little less than 8 miles (1000 feet initially, plus 40 rounds at 1000 feet each). 7.76 miles, actually. Even a 15th level caster is only getting about a 17 mile radius. Now, could proper spamming of this wipe out huge areas of crops? Sure. But the state of Iowa is 56 thousand square miles. You'd have to have 560 scrolls, each cast by a 15th level caster. Or over 1000 scrolls, each cast by a 10th level caster. It's a massive undertaking.

It's also worth noting that nothing stops the CS from just planting more crops. The spell doesn't salt the earth. It just kills what is currently there. The ground is reusable immediately. It would cause a major inconvenience, but it would take repeated attacks to actually cause significant damage, and to maximize damage you actually have to be in fairly predictable locations, which means the Vanguard are going to notice what's happening and get you sooner or later.

Uh no, definitely no, most emphatically no. It would not have been an inconvenience, minor or major, it would have been mass starvation and death. Apparently you don't realize this but it takes months to grow crops, you know what happens when people don't have food for months? They starve to death. There's no way everybody's got food stockpiled to where they can cover their entire population for months until new crops grow in, for which do remember it won't be JUST the people starving it'll be the farm animals that are starving as well, starving and dying. Even a magic-using community with ready access to Sustain would require some really good planning to try and use it to keep their population alive in a food shortage like that and a tech-based one wouldn't have much hope at all.

I am aware of how long it takes to grow crops. Are you aware that the Coalition is not run by incompetent buffoons? You honestly think that a society capable of stockpiling 3.2 million old style SAMAS doesn't bother keeping stores of food available? While not everybody would have food stockpiled to last for months, the Coalition most certainly would! I'd be shocked if they didn't have enough stored away for the military and citizens to last for years. We know that they think about food supply issues, because the CS is using subtle genetic engineering on both cattle and crops. It is ludicrous to assume that the CS, the stockpilers of 3.2 million SAMAS alone, would not have adequate food stores to survive this kind of a tactic. Karl Prosek may be an evil megalomaniac, but it is made quite clear that he is a historian of Earth's history and very good at what he does. He'd know how important food is, and he'd take steps to ensure that the CS could survive food supply problems, because he'd know from history that empires need to be well-fed if you want them to survive and thrive.

No, it crosses into the ludicrous side to think that the CS has food stockpiled for its millions of citizens that could hold out for months AND do that while somehow stockpiling millions of suits of power armor and everything else it's supposedly got stockpiled, given how they don't have dimensional storage bins or the like. There's only so much space available for putting everything into and only the magical plot armor that the CS has would have it be able to treat the destruction of much or all of its crops as just an inconvenience rather than the devastating thing it actually would be.

[Vrykolas2k]

I sure wish people would realize that Clairvoyance isn't a precise science.

Me too.
People should realize that there's a percentage chance for success, so the more people you have trying for a specific vision, the higher the probability that one or more psychics will successfully have a vision about that subject.

And they should realize that a percentage chance of success does NOT mean an automatic chance of failure.
And they should realize that "a psychic might not get a useful vision" does NOT mean "no psychic could possibly get a useful vision in time to prevent any one event."

If it was, the powerful masters of psionics could have pinpointed the Four Demons and Seven Dangers, rather than giving relatively vague warnings.
"Yes, a few hundred Mechanoids are going to appear in what used to be Aberdeen!" as opposed to, "Some big devouring swarm, somewhere to the East."

Clairvoyance wasn't the source of the psychic visions.
I don't believe that canon ever addresses using Clairvoyance to detect the precise location of any of those demons.

Arguing semantics is just that, and is exceedingly boring.
If clairvoyance wasn't the source, what was?

[eliakon]

Also something that people are forgetting...
The spell goes up in efficiency as the level rises.
If you have one of those level 20+ Dragon Kings make a scroll?
And then there are issues that are less canonically clear (if you write a scroll on a ley line nexus will it get the boosted range? Do Ley Lines increase spell ranges in RUE? How about if your wearing the Ring of Elder? Are the Nightbane books such as In-between the Shadows, and TtGD canon for Rifts or not?)
Those issues above become very important.

To illustrate why these questions are germane...
A level 10 Ritualist mage wearing one of the Rings of Eldar leads 10 assistants in a group casting of Blight of Ages
This monstrosity of a spell will destroy
all plants with in either an 40,000' radius. It will then expand an additional 40,000' per minute for the next 40 minutes.
The result is that every plant within 310 miles of them is killed (that's 301,907 square miles or so). Not bad for a nights work, especially considering that the ritual can be performed from inside a TW modified Sky Bunker APC that is loaded with cloaking spells to prevent them from being detected.

If ley lines work like they did in RMB it goes from 'bad' to "you just sterilized most of the continent" (for the morbidly curious that would be 120,000' radius for the next 120minutes for a total radius of 2750 miles with one casting.)

And before people ask, TtGD is referred to repeatedly as the source for magical rules.

[Nightmask]

Also something that people are forgetting...
The spell goes up in efficiency as the level rises.
If you have one of those level 20+ Dragon Kings make a scroll?
And then there are issues that are less canonically clear (if you write a scroll on a ley line nexus will it get the boosted range? Do Ley Lines increase spell ranges in RUE? How about if your wearing the Ring of Elder? Are the Nightbane books such as In-between the Shadows, and TtGD canon for Rifts or not?)
Those issues above become very important.

To illustrate why these questions are germane...
A level 10 Ritualist mage wearing one of the Rings of Eldar leads 10 assistants in a group casting of Blight of Ages
This monstrosity of a spell will destroy
all plants with in either an 40,000' radius. It will then expand an additional 40,000' per minute for the next 40 minutes.
The result is that every plant within 310 miles of them is killed (that's 301,907 square miles or so). Not bad for a nights work, especially considering that the ritual can be performed from inside a TW modified Sky Bunker APC that is loaded with cloaking spells to prevent them from being detected.

If ley lines work like they did in RMB it goes from 'bad' to "you just sterilized most of the continent" (for the morbidly curious that would be 120,000' radius for the next 120minutes for a total radius of 2750 miles with one casting.)

And before people ask, TtGD is referred to repeatedly as the source for magical rules.

They aren't forgetting the efficiency goes up they're deliberately ignoring it since they can't downplay just how utterly devastating it would actually be. Large swatches of defoliation that would also result in large numbers of animals and insects dying out or going extinct due to lack of food causing disease to skyrocket from the many rotting animals, and the predators and some of the starving prey animals would end up attacking ANYTHING that they could see as food including towns, villages, and members of the CS.

[Killer Cyborg]

I sure wish people would realize that Clairvoyance isn't a precise science.

Me too.
People should realize that there's a percentage chance for success, so the more people you have trying for a specific vision, the higher the probability that one or more psychics will successfully have a vision about that subject.

And they should realize that a percentage chance of success does NOT mean an automatic chance of failure.
And they should realize that "a psychic might not get a useful vision" does NOT mean "no psychic could possibly get a useful vision in time to prevent any one event."

If it was, the powerful masters of psionics could have pinpointed the Four Demons and Seven Dangers, rather than giving relatively vague warnings.
"Yes, a few hundred Mechanoids are going to appear in what used to be Aberdeen!" as opposed to, "Some big devouring swarm, somewhere to the East."

Clairvoyance wasn't the source of the psychic visions.
I don't believe that canon ever addresses using Clairvoyance to detect the precise location of any of those demons.

Arguing semantics is just that, and is exceedingly boring.

Perhaps, but math is math, and logic is logic.

If clairvoyance wasn't the source, what was?

It was an unprecedented spontaneous psychic event that affected "psychics" in general.
Most simply felt unease. "Some of the most powerful" (iirc) had actual visions about stuff.

[Killer Cyborg]

it crosses into the ludicrous side to think that the CS has food stockpiled for its millions of citizens that could hold out for months

How do you figure?


If all the food crops in America failed tomorrow, the prices of food would go up... but we have a LOT of food in cans (and bags) on shelves, a lot of food stored in freezers and refrigerators, a lot of food in the form of animals and animal products, and we have the ability to import more food from other nations.
I'm pretty sure this is standard in most modern nations.
We don't live in a world where we count on the immediate harvest in order to eat.
I don't see why the CS would be different.

[eliakon]

I sure wish people would realize that Clairvoyance isn't a precise science.

Me too.
People should realize that there's a percentage chance for success, so the more people you have trying for a specific vision, the higher the probability that one or more psychics will successfully have a vision about that subject.

And they should realize that a percentage chance of success does NOT mean an automatic chance of failure.
And they should realize that "a psychic might not get a useful vision" does NOT mean "no psychic could possibly get a useful vision in time to prevent any one event."

If it was, the powerful masters of psionics could have pinpointed the Four Demons and Seven Dangers, rather than giving relatively vague warnings.
"Yes, a few hundred Mechanoids are going to appear in what used to be Aberdeen!" as opposed to, "Some big devouring swarm, somewhere to the East."

Clairvoyance wasn't the source of the psychic visions.
I don't believe that canon ever addresses using Clairvoyance to detect the precise location of any of those demons.

Arguing semantics is just that, and is exceedingly boring.

Perhaps, but math is math, and logic is logic.

But "how I want clairvoyance to work at my table" is not math, nor logic
The power is pretty specific on what it does and does not provide
when people try to claim that it will provide more than what the book says it does, that moves from "logic" into "house rules"
The book uses words like "not clear"
It talks about how it can be a simple impression, or a sudden flash of insight, or a brief image.
None of those match up with "Detailed information that can be rigorously recorded, and analyzed and correlated in detail"
That is setting aside the idea that all these 'clears' are going to have incredible memories to recall every little detail of these visions so that they can be entered in this imaginary database.

I know that some people are just in love with the idea that the CS has this huge precognitive shield that warns them of everything and is the source of their plot armor.
Its a neat little head canon.
But it is a head canon built on house rules stacked on bad assumptions built on more house rules stacked on house rules.
All of which miraculously in the last 5 million years of recorded history... only the CS has ever thought of doing this.

[eliakon]

it crosses into the ludicrous side to think that the CS has food stockpiled for its millions of citizens that could hold out for months

How do you figure?


If all the food crops in America failed tomorrow, the prices of food would go up... but we have a LOT of food in cans (and bags) on shelves, a lot of food stored in freezers and refrigerators, a lot of food in the form of animals and animal products, and we have the ability to import more food from other nations.
I'm pretty sure this is standard in most modern nations.
We don't live in a world where we count on the immediate harvest in order to eat.
I don't see why the CS would be different.

Well lets look at that
Hmmm
Your comparing a modern first world economy that has a massive over abundance of food and easy wide open access to global imports...
...to Rifts.
I don't even know where to begin.

There aren't places to import FROM for North America for example.
Where is this food going to come from?

And there is the question of just how much food is available in non-perishable form in Rifts Earth anyway. Its not like the US of 2017 after all.
People starve to death in Rifts Earth which sort of suggests that there is not just thousands of tons of food lying around to spare.

There is the question of just how much reserve seed the CS has on hand. I am not convinced that the CS just happens to have enough seed, in storage to replace all of its crops. ESPECIALLY since the spell says that "Processed foods" are immune, and talks about destroying all plants. As such any seeds in the zone of death will be destroyed (hope they had a few thousand tons of back ups in Texas or something). And it is quite possible that picked food such as apples, and harvested corn and wheat would be destroyed as well.
<edit>
Correction. It will destroy seeds.
That means corn, nuts, wheat, fruit, most vegetables, potatoes, rice, etc.
You might get to keep picked lettuce, and already ground flour...but stores of wheat and rice? Gone.

[Killer Cyborg]

Also something that people are forgetting...
The spell goes up in efficiency as the level rises.

Okay, so...
100' per level initially,
+100'/level/melee round...

A level 15 caster (or a 15th level scroll) setting this off (without any extra boosts) would have a 1500' initial blast zone, and would increase by 1500' per melee round for 15 minutes?
So that's a radius of 24,000', or 4.54 miles, for a blast area of 9.09 miles?
Is my math right on that?

If you have one of those level 20+ Dragon Kings make a scroll?

Good idea.

And then there are issues that are less canonically clear (if you write a scroll on a ley line nexus will it get the boosted range? Do Ley Lines increase spell ranges in RUE? How about if your wearing the Ring of Elder? Are the Nightbane books such as In-between the Shadows, and TtGD canon for Rifts or not?)
Those issues above become very important.

Yes, that is where GMs can make or break the game.

[Killer Cyborg]

Perhaps, but math is math, and logic is logic.

But "how I want clairvoyance to work at my table" is not math, nor logic
The power is pretty specific on what it does and does not provide

Agreed.
The spell provides 58%+2%/level chance of successfully having any vision (+5% if the person involved is a friend or loved one) via deliberate meditation.
Spontaneous visions about "anything that might hurt or change the world (including people and places)" can occur at the whim of the GM, but are "extremely rare."

The message can be a sudden feeling that somebody is in need, or (more often) a flash of insight, "an image that races through the mind."

when people try to claim that it will provide more than what the book says it does, that moves from "logic" into "house rules"

Just as when people try to claim that it will provide LESS than what the book says, or when they try to claim (directly or indirectly) that what the book provides is necessarily and always useless.

The book uses words like "not clear"

Actually, the book says this:
"Often all the details are not clear, but the potential danger is."

"Often" does not mean "always." So some of the time all the details ARE clear.
Even when not all of the details are clear, some are clear.
And the potential danger always is.

It talks about how it can be a simple impression, or a sudden flash of insight, or a brief image.
None of those match up with "Detailed information that can be rigorously recorded, and analyzed and correlated in detail"

The potential danger is always clear in a successful vision.
Sometimes all of the details are clear.

So let's say that you have 100 psychics. Let's say that they're all level 1, so they each individually have just the basic 58% chance of a successful vision.
Let's say that these 100 psychics are all trying to have a vision.
I'm not a math expert, but I'd expect roughly 58 of those 100 psychics would generally be expected to have a successful vision.

Of those 58 visions, "often all the details are not clear."
But not always.

So the GM (or the writer of the books, if we're talking meta-plot) decides what percentage of those 58 visions constitutes "often."
I don't see any reason to believe that "often" is intended to describe 58 out of 58 successful visions.
I kinda think that 57 out of 58 times would also be a bit overkill for "often."

"Often" just means "frequently" or "in many instances."
It's not necessarily even describing a majority of cases.
If 20 out of 58 visions were not clear on all details, that would constitute "often all the details are not clear."
And that would leave 38 cases where yes, all the details were clear.

This is important, because (and I apparently cannot stress this enough):
The claim is not that Clairvoyance would always detect every possible attack

The primary claim is this:
Clairvoyance could possibly prevent any one possible attack/event

The distinction between these two claims is very important, because the purpose of discussing Clairvoyance is NOT to say "X is most definitely proof against Attack Y," but rather to shoot down any claims that Attack Y will most definitely succeed.

It is NOT "The Coalition would always be able to prevent every terrorist attack."
It is likewise NOT "the Coalition would necessarily be able to prevent [insert whatever attack is being discussed]."
It is that anybody who claims that an attack would necessarily succeed, that there is NO way for a nation (or even party) with Clairvoyant defenders to possibly identify or stop the attack beforehand, is incorrect according to the rules of the game.
Because the books are clear on how Clairvoyance works: it CAN sometimes be used to anticipate and thwart certain attacks, dangers, and other events.

That is setting aside the idea that all these 'clears' are going to have incredible memories to recall every little detail of these visions so that they can be entered in this imaginary database.

Nobody has ever claimed that.
The claim is that if a nation with many psychics had a database where psychics could enter a description of their visions for cross-reference, then the overall chances of collecting useful information (or putting together pieces of a puzzle) would increase significantly.

[HWalsh]

KC you asked me where it said in SoT that the CS murders *everyone* as protocol?

Any soldier found "willfully" helping the enemy escape (even a child) is subject to court-martial. If found guilty, he is branded a traitor (something that will disgrace and haunt the individual's family for generations), be stripped of his rank, and either face life in prison or, more likely, public execution as a "traitor to the Coalition States and all of humankind!"

SoT 2 - Pg 15 - 4th Paragraph, under the "Quality of Mercy" heading.

[Killer Cyborg]

it crosses into the ludicrous side to think that the CS has food stockpiled for its millions of citizens that could hold out for months

How do you figure?


If all the food crops in America failed tomorrow, the prices of food would go up... but we have a LOT of food in cans (and bags) on shelves, a lot of food stored in freezers and refrigerators, a lot of food in the form of animals and animal products, and we have the ability to import more food from other nations.
I'm pretty sure this is standard in most modern nations.
We don't live in a world where we count on the immediate harvest in order to eat.
I don't see why the CS would be different.

Well lets look at that
Hmmm
Your comparing a modern first world economy that has a massive over abundance of food and easy wide open access to global imports...
...to Rifts.
I don't even know where to begin.

Start with you reasons for believing that the CS does not have a massive over-abundance of food, or easy wide-open access to trade nations.

There aren't places to import FROM for North America for example.
Where is this food going to come from?

Wait... is the plan for Tolkeen to wipe out all plant life in North America?
Because THAT would be quite the ambitious plan, and would make them more enemies than friends.
My impression was that we were discussing Tolkeen operatives wiping out just the Coalition's crops, not the entire continent's plantlife.
So I was simply pointing out that there are a lot of countries and kingdoms in North America that the CS could (and does, presumably) do trade with.

But even if Tolkeen unleashed massive genocide against all plants in North America, the books are clear that the CS does trade with the NGR and other overseas nations.

And there is the question of just how much food is available in non-perishable form in Rifts Earth anyway. Its not like the US of 2017 after all.

Correct-it is a futuristic world with futuristic technology.

People starve to death in Rifts Earth which sort of suggests that there is not just thousands of tons of food lying around to spare.

If you have any quotes from the book showing the CS having any kind of food shortage problem, let's see 'em.

There is the question of just how much reserve seed the CS has on hand. I am not convinced that the CS just happens to have enough seed, in storage to replace all of its crops. ESPECIALLY since the spell says that "Processed foods" are immune, and talks about destroying all plants. As such any seeds in the zone of death will be destroyed (hope they had a few thousand tons of back ups in Texas or something). And it is quite possible that picked food such as apples, and harvested corn and wheat would be destroyed as well.
<edit>
Correction. It will destroy seeds.
That means corn, nuts, wheat, fruit, most vegetables, potatoes, rice, etc.
You might get to keep picked lettuce, and already ground flour...but stores of wheat and rice? Gone.

Eh.
I can see that interpretation, and I even agree with it... but it IS an interpretation.
The spell makes things "wither and die," and there's no one answer for how that would affect dried grains or other seeds.

Even with that interpretation, once you start talking about stored foods/seeds you're talking about a much bigger attack area than just the farms themselves. A lot of that's going to be scattered about all over the place, or in storage (or on file) at Lone Star and other places.

[Killer Cyborg]

KC you asked me where it said in SoT that the CS murders *everyone* as protocol?

Any soldier found "willfully" helping the enemy escape (even a child) is subject to court-martial. If found guilty, he is branded a traitor (something that will disgrace and haunt the individual's family for generations), be stripped of his rank, and either face life in prison or, more likely, public execution as a "traitor to the Coalition States and all of humankind!"

SoT 2 - Pg 15 - 4th Paragraph, under the "Quality of Mercy" heading.

None of that forbids the CS taking prisoners.
Prisoners by definition have not escaped.

[eliakon]

it crosses into the ludicrous side to think that the CS has food stockpiled for its millions of citizens that could hold out for months

How do you figure?


If all the food crops in America failed tomorrow, the prices of food would go up... but we have a LOT of food in cans (and bags) on shelves, a lot of food stored in freezers and refrigerators, a lot of food in the form of animals and animal products, and we have the ability to import more food from other nations.
I'm pretty sure this is standard in most modern nations.
We don't live in a world where we count on the immediate harvest in order to eat.
I don't see why the CS would be different.

Well lets look at that
Hmmm
Your comparing a modern first world economy that has a massive over abundance of food and easy wide open access to global imports...
...to Rifts.
I don't even know where to begin.

Start with you reasons for believing that the CS does not have a massive over-abundance of food, or easy wide-open access to trade nations.

Well, their trade partners all have to IMPORT food?
Oh yeah, and their is still massive starvation in their slums?

There aren't places to import FROM for North America for example.
Where is this food going to come from?

Wait... is the plan for Tolkeen to wipe out all plant life in North America?
Because THAT would be quite the ambitious plan, and would make them more enemies than friends.
My impression was that we were discussing Tolkeen operatives wiping out just the Coalition's crops, not the entire continent's plantlife.
So I was simply pointing out that there are a lot of countries and kingdoms in North America that the CS could (and does, presumably) do trade with.

But even if Tolkeen unleashed massive genocide against all plants in North America, the books are clear that the CS does trade with the NGR and other overseas nations.

No, they would wipe out the bread basket and kill of the crops in Iowa and Missouri.
The resulting food crash would decimate the CS and cause millions of CS to starve, ripple on effects would cause wide spread famine in Quebec, Northern Gun, and the NGR.
Places that are willing to embrace the use of magic would be able to get through this by using magic to tide themselves over, but that option is not open to any of the anti-magic factions.
Remember the CS is the food supplier to most of the Human Supremacist factions in NA. There are not a lot of people to buy from. Loosing their food doesn't mean that other people are just going to miraculously have food to sell them... food which they have never had before because they have had to buy from the CS.
Its basic economics, if your the one importing a needed good, you don't have a surplus to sell.

And there is the question of just how much food is available in non-perishable form in Rifts Earth anyway. Its not like the US of 2017 after all.

Correct-it is a futuristic world with futuristic technology.

Again, your making assumptions that are not supported by the game.
Your personal headcanon is not a basis for anything.
After all, their technology is also lower than ours in many areas. Thus the claim that they would have some particular super technology simply because they are technologically advanced is specious.

People starve to death in Rifts Earth which sort of suggests that there is not just thousands of tons of food lying around to spare.

If you have any quotes from the book showing the CS having any kind of food shortage problem, let's see 'em.

If you have any quotes from the book showing the CS having millions of tons of food stockpiled I would be interested in seeing THOSE.
After all, your the one making the claim that the CS just happens to have stored months of food for tens of millions of people.

There is the question of just how much reserve seed the CS has on hand. I am not convinced that the CS just happens to have enough seed, in storage to replace all of its crops. ESPECIALLY since the spell says that "Processed foods" are immune, and talks about destroying all plants. As such any seeds in the zone of death will be destroyed (hope they had a few thousand tons of back ups in Texas or something). And it is quite possible that picked food such as apples, and harvested corn and wheat would be destroyed as well.
<edit>
Correction. It will destroy seeds.
That means corn, nuts, wheat, fruit, most vegetables, potatoes, rice, etc.
You might get to keep picked lettuce, and already ground flour...but stores of wheat and rice? Gone.

Eh.
I can see that interpretation, and I even agree with it... but it IS an interpretation.
The spell makes things "wither and die," and there's no one answer for how that would affect dried grains or other seeds.

Even with that interpretation, once you start talking about stored foods/seeds you're talking about a much bigger attack area than just the farms themselves. A lot of that's going to be scattered about all over the place, or in storage (or on file) at Lone Star and other places.

Well there are a couple things here
1) we are talking in one night (one casting) you just lost Iowa. All of it. And a good chunk of the surrounding area. A second casting (this team can do that in one night easy) and there goes Missouri. Bam, 3 hours and you just lost the entire breadbasket.
2) as for seeds. It says 'destroys plants' they 'wither' trees are instantly turned leafless, and into grey and black. That does not sound like just simply 'dying' but being edible. But for the sake of discussion. Lets say it IS edible.
3) where are you going to get replacements? No seriously. If they did this... you have no crops, and every seed in the entire state of Iowa and Missouri is now dead and lifeless. Dead means "can not be planted and grown". Now sure, they will have seeds in other places. But its not like there is going to be massive strategic stockpiles of seeds, there will not be the enough seeds. Seriously. For example soybeans? You need between 5 and 30 POUNDS of seeds per ACRE of planted ground, Wheat is between 30 and 180, for corn your looking at about 60. Now consider how many hundreds of thousands of acres of land your talking about here.
We are talking about tens of thousands of tons of seeds needed. Unfortunately most of those would normally be either in silos near the farms, or be collected from the crop and replanted.
4) And for kicks and giggles, don't forget that you also lost all the micro flora in the soil.
5) Can anyone say "Dust bowl"