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The first thing to go is the Vampire Intelligence in its psuedo-Mythos form. I'd rather it be something else entirely- not an alien entity, not a disease, not a curse, etc. even if it has some or all of those qualities. Right now, I'm thinking of vampirism as the supernatural manifestation of an ancient and toxic meme that doesn't manifest outside of specific metaphysical circumstances.

I would establish a baseline form of vampire, which would be very bare-bones in its conception- little more than an intelligent and self-aware flesh-eating zombie. This I would use for the Wild Vampire. They would be dangerous in packs, but alone can be handled by normal people. A more sociable version I would use for the Secondary Vampire, which would be dangerous all by himself and a serious threat in groups of any size; these guys would operate like gangsters. A seriously upgraded version is my Master Vampire, who would be super-powered such that he would be an order of magnitude greater than any Secondary one.

Differentiating between various vampire groups would be the primary purpose of subtype-specific powers and weaknesses, and some world-building derived from such differences would be the secondary purposes. (Tertiary is to keep players guessing, as one vampire encounter would not necessarily predict how the next goes.)

One last change: do away with the Slow Kill. If a mortal succumbs to a vampire's bite, then infection occurs and the victim will become a host within an interval of time not yet determined.

Mechanurgist wrote:

Kalidor wrote:Maybe, I don't agree, but maybe. But really, what Rifts person is going to know what this "Christ" is, much less have faith in him/it? It's just a throwback. Sure, there might be a select few cults still around in PA 104 who believe "Someday Jesus is coming back and these horrific monsters will be sorry!" but somehow I doubt even the most faithful have that much faith left considering the state of the world.

Au contraire, religion usually makes a strong comeback during times of disaster and misery, and becomes weaker during times of plenty and peace. IMO Christianity would be a very powerful force in North America after the cataclysm, among humans at least, but that's a topic Palladium doesn't want to touch with a 100' foot cross.

Pole, I meant to say pole.

This is true from a historical perspective for one very important reason -- in the past, dark times weren't quantifiable as acts of nature, weather patterns, plate shifting, or disease. They were simply given nebulous reasons such as "demons" and "The Devil". People never saw these demons or devils, so it was easy to create a counterpoint. Your invisible gods can protect you from the tragedies that these invisible devils bring to the world, as it were.

In Rifts Earth, devils, monsters and inhuman abominations aren't invisible, they are quite real. You don't question that a dragon demands a virgin sacrifice because he will come rip your face off if you don't do it. In Rifts Earth, the only quantifiable gods are the ones from older mythologies. If you want to include the abrahamic mythological figures in your campaign world, that is certainly up to you. But as written, they do not exist on Rifts Earth, even though monsters do.

Therefore, the conditioned response of believing in them and expecting them to help you as you *see* vampires exterminating your town, falls to extinction and people rely on other, more quantifiable and verifiable resources to find solace in.

TechnoGothic wrote:I would want one One Change.

Make them more Playable as PCs.

Not no, but hell no.

Danger wrote:

TechnoGothic wrote:I would want one One Change.

Make them more Playable as PCs.

Not no, but hell no.

Especially the shiney ones

The issue with the cross is a mystic link between the VIs (given to their progeny) maybe before Christianity, some powerful being cursed all the VIs with the weakness and the further away from the VI the progeny is in potency, the it affects them. So it isn't a symbol of beleif as much as it is a curse on the race originated because the powerful being chose to torture them with one of the ways they "farmed" blood, from crusified humans.

Hillbilly_LineWalker wrote:The cross thing never bothered me so I just left it as written, but what I could never stand was them taking damage from regular water, It just defies logic- How could they possibly live on a planet like earth? What if they get caught in the rain? How could anyone take them seriously as a threat if they can be backed off with a squirt gun? I don't think they need a power boost other than that, but damage from normal water IMHO just makes them a lame joke.

i can shoot a coalition soldier with a fairly inexpensive laser pistol, or even stab them with a vibroblade. apparently, for dogboys, i can even injure them with SDC weaponry, such as sticks and rocks, provided i take aim to bypass their armor (assuming they are in the light, non-environmental armor, that is).

and yet, somehow, when you put an untrained human with no MDC armor and a pointy stick up against a dog boy, i somehow get the impression that the dog boy has a MUCH BETTER chance of surviving.

so sure, your water pistol can damage the vampire. but here's the thing. the vampire isn't going to *die* from your water pistol. it's likely going to be in pain for a brief moment (what is it, like 1d6 damage? 2d6?), it will probably heal by the end of the melee no problem, and by the time you can even use the water pistol, it's close enough that you're only going to get one shot before it's standing next to you, angry, and drinking your blood before it snaps your neck.

they don't tire, they heal quickly enough that they can go from almost dead to fully healed in 30 minutes guaranteed, and you don't even know if they haven't just gone around you to attack any people you may have been guarding. a group of 5 vampires against a group of even 30 people armed with waterguns, my money is on the vampires, even if you give the regular people some body armor so that they don't instantly die from the vampire attacks.

Hillbilly_LineWalker wrote:The cross thing never bothered me so I just left it as written, but what I could never stand was them taking damage from regular water, It just defies logic- How could they possibly live on a planet like earth? What if they get caught in the rain? How could anyone take them seriously as a threat if they can be backed off with a squirt gun? I don't think they need a power boost other than that, but damage from normal water IMHO just makes them a lame joke.

I left all of it the same. They are VI avatars essentially and are elementally linked. RUNNING water can hurt them but the VI has weather control and the intelligent vampires should be able to figure out how to use an umbrella, poncho or cloak. They are linked to Earth, Water, Fire and even Air. They have to sleep on the Earth and turn into air but are damaged by water and fire. The watergun doesn't affect the mist form. Could you imagine what the vampires are saying about humans? "Who can take them seriously when they can be backed off with something that shoots common metals, light, plasma, ions... heck anything that goes fast and can be directed can kill them. They aren't made to be a deific affront, they are supposed to be elemental with one curse (the cross), if it required blessed water then it would be religious.

truthfully, i wonder if these people who think being able to kill vampires with waterguns making them super-weak have ever tried a playtest of fairly average people (ie not in high-tech power armor) facing vampires while armed with waterguns. i mean, sure, if you put a trained soldier into a suit of power armor with a camera hooked into the HUD and armed with a railgun that fires hundreds of wood/silver rounds per minute and can fly hundreds of miles per hour while adding attacks per melee, strike and dodge bonuses, etc, sure the vampires aren't that big of a threat compared to that.

but grab a few regular people, train them in HtH:Basic and give them waterpistols and light MDC body armor, and they won't be doing so good against even wild vampires, let alone secondary vampires or master vampires who take time to plan their attack.

Shark_Force wrote:truthfully, i wonder if these people who think being able to kill vampires with waterguns making them super-weak have ever tried a playtest of fairly average people (ie not in high-tech power armor) facing vampires while armed with waterguns. i mean, sure, if you put a trained soldier into a suit of power armor with a camera hooked into the HUD and armed with a railgun that fires hundreds of wood/silver rounds per minute and can fly hundreds of miles per hour while adding attacks per melee, strike and dodge bonuses, etc, sure the vampires aren't that big of a threat compared to that.

but grab a few regular people, train them in HtH:Basic and give them waterpistols and light MDC body armor, and they won't be doing so good against even wild vampires, let alone secondary vampires or master vampires who take time to plan their attack.

You don't even need all that.

If a gun is hurting a vampire, he's going (or should) try to get it away from you. All vampires (including wild) have super hypnotic suggestion. Unless you're built around not being mind controlled, you probably should have a hard time fighting them.

Facing 5 wilds, using SHS= You're man enough, you don't need to use any weapons to fight us, just use your bare hands.

Also, water guns don't have that much MDC, and even in high-tech armor (robot strength at best) you can be disarmed of your weapons.