LOD 3: The Bleakness release date?

[Goliath Strongarm]

Which will come first:
LoD3, RIFTs popping up in the real world, or the Old Kingdom Books?

My money goes to: real rifts, Lod, OK..

[Silveressa]

If putting out books were as easy as you suggest Silveressa we wouldn't be having this conversation.Gateway to the Megaverse.

That's the key issue, putting out books is far easier the Palladiums business model lets it be. If Kev hired (or reassigned) a couple of editors besides himself to proof read and prep the books rather then over see every single release personally, we'd see a huge jump in releases and books that actually make the release schedule.

Routing every single book through a single person before release obviously slows down the entire business to the productivity capability on a single person, which is a shadow of what a company is capable of.

All that aside however, continually advertising (let alone taking pre-orders) for books like lotd 3 that have no realistic expectation of being released anytime with in the next 2 years + does nothing but lend prospective buyers into false expectations and make the entire business look bad/unorganized/dishonest in the end.

Instead of "coming soon," listing them as "discontinued for now" to at least let people know the real status of the book/s in question would go a long way towards managing everyones dissatisfaction/disappointment.

[azazel1024]

Well, I think the issue is that Kevin takes care of both PBs business and most of the editting and rewritting. If he could hire someone to either take care of the operations of the company or the editting/rewritting the output would probably grow by leaps and bounds. Considering past history I can understand why Kevin wouldn't want to hand over operating the company to someone else and focus on editting/writting with some basic oversight/strategic vision work on the side.

That said, since he wants to a heavy hand in how each book is crafted, he can't really hand over the editting and rewritting to someone else either.

Its just to bad he can't delegate some of one or the other (more than he may be).
-Matt

[Carl Gleba]

If putting out books were as easy as you suggest Silveressa we wouldn't be having this conversation.Gateway to the Megaverse.

That's the key issue, putting out books is far easier the Palladiums business model lets it be. If Kev hired (or reassigned) a couple of editors besides himself to proof read and prep the books rather then over see every single release personally, we'd see a huge jump in releases and books that actually make the release schedule.

Routing every single book through a single person before release obviously slows down the entire business to the productivity capability on a single person, which is a shadow of what a company is capable of.

All that aside however, continually advertising (let alone taking pre-orders) for books like lotd 3 that have no realistic expectation of being released anytime with in the next 2 years + does nothing but lend prospective buyers into false expectations and make the entire business look bad/unorganized/dishonest in the end.

Instead of "coming soon," listing them as "discontinued for now" to at least let people know the real status of the book/s in question would go a long way towards managing everyones dissatisfaction/disappointment.

It's pretty easy to be an armchair quarterback. Heck, you can see the game on TV, but the problem is none of us works in the office so we don't have a complete picture of what actually goes on. Kevin has said this is not a business where you crank out widgets. The creative process takes time and each project is different. Plus there are a variety of other business concerns going on behind the scenes that none of us are aware of.

You might also not be aware of this but Palladium also has three editors. If you open the credits page of most books you'll see Alex and Wayne are also editors. I too wish Palladium had about ten more people with multiple projects being worked on at one time, but wishing won't change the situation. Kevin and crew are making the best of what they have with the limited resources they have.

[Silveressa]

It's pretty easy to be an armchair quarterback. Heck, you can see the game on TV, but the problem is none of us works in the office so we don't have a complete picture of what actually goes on.

I concur, however I was more doing a comparison of Palladium to the other rpg companies of similar size out there as far as product release rates & accurate release dates go.

Most of all though, being honest about their release schedule and not pimping products they have no plans to actually release is the main sticking point for myself, and many others. If they can only do 4 books a year, that's fine, as long as they admit this, and don't promise us 8-10 releases they never deliver on, let alone products like lotd bk3 in the "coming soon/preorder" department, when it's not even remotely truthful. (It's been "coming soon" for 5+ years now, a advertisement thats laughable at best, and downright sad-bordering on false advertising at worst.)

Vaporware promises is perhaps the quickest way to upset people, it's like watching a "coming soon" movie trailer for a movie hitting the theaters in 3 months, only to have the company keep promising the movie "this summer" for 5 straight years in a row. Eventually people are going to laugh at the companies rep, lose interest in the film, and regard anything they claim with a lot of skepticism.

[jaymz]

You might also not be aware of this but Palladium also has three editors. If you open the credits page of most books you'll see Alex and Wayne are also editors. I too wish Palladium had about ten more people with multiple projects being worked on at one time, but wishing won't change the situation. Kevin and crew are making the best of what they have with the limited resources they have.

Yes they have 3 editors but KEVIN is hte bittleneck. Alex and Wayne do not see one page until after Kevin gts his first crack at it. That is where the bottleneck truly is. Alex and Wayne only see what is essentially a near finished product. Kevin himself has said Alex and Wyane typically look for typing erros, gramtical etc. That leaves kevin as THE editor combined with doing whatever rewrites he deems neccessary prior to Alex and Wayne ever seeing one printed page of a manuscript.

This leads to another perceived problem. Kevin has repeatedly said on sevral boks that what he has seen is "incredible", "amazing", "awesome" or "genius". If the manuscript he has seen is one or all of these thigns then no offense ther shoudl be no creative process causing him to take 3-4 months to edits and rewrites to a book since it was alread a work that "incredible", "amazing", "awesome" or "genius".

Surely CArl you must question your work if it has been praised as such only to Have Kevin take that long to edit and rewrote portions of it?

[Severus Snape]

Question: I thought LOD3 was supposed to be about The Citadel. Is this still going to be in this book? Or has that been pushed out?

[jaymz]

Question: I thought LOD3 was supposed to be about The Citadel. Is this still going to be in this book? Or has that been pushed out?

We'll never know until or if the book ever comes out.

[Carl Gleba]

You might also not be aware of this but Palladium also has three editors. If you open the credits page of most books you'll see Alex and Wayne are also editors. I too wish Palladium had about ten more people with multiple projects being worked on at one time, but wishing won't change the situation. Kevin and crew are making the best of what they have with the limited resources they have.

Yes they have 3 editors but KEVIN is hte bittleneck. Alex and Wayne do not see one page until after Kevin gts his first crack at it. That is where the bottleneck truly is. Alex and Wayne only see what is essentially a near finished product. Kevin himself has said Alex and Wyane typically look for typing erros, gramtical etc. That leaves kevin as THE editor combined with doing whatever rewrites he deems neccessary prior to Alex and Wayne ever seeing one printed page of a manuscript.

This leads to another perceived problem. Kevin has repeatedly said on sevral boks that what he has seen is "incredible", "amazing", "awesome" or "genius". If the manuscript he has seen is one or all of these thigns then no offense ther shoudl be no creative process causing him to take 3-4 months to edits and rewrites to a book since it was alread a work that "incredible", "amazing", "awesome" or "genius".

Surely CArl you must question your work if it has been praised as such only to Have Kevin take that long to edit and rewrote portions of it?

This is something that bothers me about post like this. I don't question the way Kevin runs HIS business. Kevin and his crew have been running Palladium for 30 years. I was a kid when I first played Palladium's games and have been writing for a little less than ten years. Who am I to question what is the best and fastest way to get a book to print. To assume I know better than Kevin is arrogent presumption. I have the privledge of being a Palladium insider and even I don't know everything that goes on inside Palladium on a day to day basis. So when you say Kevin is the bottleneck, you are right in that it is a perceived problem. All members of the Palladium crew play a role in the publication of a book. Who can blame Kevin for wanting to maintain quality control? If his name is going on the book can you blame the guy.

Now as for the bolded part you are assuming things about me. Even if I wasn't a Palladium insider I still read the murmurs and the weekly updates. Kevin clearly indicated that he has been busy with other business functions. When it comes to the editing of my books I accepted long ago that Kevin can and will make changes, despite how much he likes it. Again this is the creative process. Say I mentioned some small idea that I perceived as minor, but Kevin thinks otherwise and decided to expand upon it. Additionally I could have several pages on something that could be condensed down to a single page or paragraph so Kevion cuts it, only to find out later in the book that I reference that info so Kevin has to go back and retool it to mesh. I understand this unlike some other freelancers and accept that changes can and will be made. When Kevin makes changes I review them, compare them to what I wrote and take that as an oppertunity to try and improve my writing. You can learn a lot about the creative process by listening to some of the pod cast where Kevin talks about it. They are very informative. So to answer your question, no i don't have to question Kevin becuase I am involved in the creative process and i understand it.

[jaymz]

You might also not be aware of this but Palladium also has three editors. If you open the credits page of most books you'll see Alex and Wayne are also editors. I too wish Palladium had about ten more people with multiple projects being worked on at one time, but wishing won't change the situation. Kevin and crew are making the best of what they have with the limited resources they have.

Yes they have 3 editors but KEVIN is hte bittleneck. Alex and Wayne do not see one page until after Kevin gts his first crack at it. That is where the bottleneck truly is. Alex and Wayne only see what is essentially a near finished product. Kevin himself has said Alex and Wyane typically look for typing erros, gramtical etc. That leaves kevin as THE editor combined with doing whatever rewrites he deems neccessary prior to Alex and Wayne ever seeing one printed page of a manuscript.

This leads to another perceived problem. Kevin has repeatedly said on sevral boks that what he has seen is "incredible", "amazing", "awesome" or "genius". If the manuscript he has seen is one or all of these thigns then no offense ther shoudl be no creative process causing him to take 3-4 months to edits and rewrites to a book since it was alread a work that "incredible", "amazing", "awesome" or "genius".

Surely CArl you must question your work if it has been praised as such only to Have Kevin take that long to edit and rewrote portions of it?

This is something that bothers me about post like this. I don't question the way Kevin runs HIS business. Kevin and his crew have been running Palladium for 30 years. I was a kid when I first played Palladium's games and have been writing for a little less than ten years. Who am I to question what is the best and fastest way to get a book to print. To assume I know better than Kevin is arrogent presumption. I have the privledge of being a Palladium insider and even I don't know everything that goes on inside Palladium on a day to day basis. So when you say Kevin is the bottleneck, you are right in that it is a perceived problem. All members of the Palladium crew play a role in the publication of a book. Who can blame Kevin for wanting to maintain quality control? If his name is going on the book can you blame the guy.

Now as for the bolded part you are assuming things about me. Even if I wasn't a Palladium insider I still read the murmurs and the weekly updates. Kevin clearly indicated that he has been busy with other business functions. When it comes to the editing of my books I accepted long ago that Kevin can and will make changes, despite how much he likes it. Again this is the creative process. Say I mentioned some small idea that I perceived as minor, but Kevin thinks otherwise and decided to expand upon it. Additionally I could have several pages on something that could be condensed down to a single page or paragraph so Kevion cuts it, only to find out later in the book that I reference that info so Kevin has to go back and retool it to mesh. I understand this unlike some other freelancers and accept that changes can and will be made. When Kevin makes changes I review them, compare them to what I wrote and take that as an oppertunity to try and improve my writing. You can learn a lot about the creative process by listening to some of the pod cast where Kevin talks about it. They are very informative. So to answer your question, no i don't have to question Kevin becuase I am involved in the creative process and i understand it.

Ok then to further that, woudl it not be better to learn by doing rather than being told or reading hte differences? In other words Kevin makes the notes of changes that are needed and give you the opportunity to edit and make the fixes he thinks are neededin stead of you doing essentially one complete draft of a munascript to never see it again or be given the opportunity to try and change it yourself to meet his expectations? Most peopel I have spoken to who have been published are given this apportunity and do not have thei work changed and rewritten by others to teh extent that Kevins seems to do.

Also I never assumed anything about you I asked a question. It was a yes or no question nothing more.

Furhter more why is yourself and other always assume we (the unwashed apparently) don't understand the creative process. PLease give some of us a little more credit than you and others seem willing too.

[Carl Gleba]

Ok then to further that, woudl it not be better to learn by doing rather than being told or reading hte differences? In other words Kevin makes the notes of changes that are needed and give you the opportunity to edit and make the fixes he thinks are neededin stead of you doing essentially one complete draft of a manuscript to never see it again or be given the opportunity to try and change it yourself to meet his expectations? Most people I have spoken to who have been published are given this opportunity and do not have thei work changed and rewritten by others to the extent that Kevins seems to do.

I understand where you're coming from although I don't know if that still holds true today? My experience is limited to Palladium.

Also I never assumed anything about you I asked a question. It was a yes or no question nothing more.

Sorry jaymz, but that was a baited question laced with assumption that even a lawyer would be proud of.

Furhter more why is yourself and other always assume we (the unwashed apparently) don't understand the creative process. Please give some of us a little more credit than you and others seem willing too.

Sorry it was not meant to be insulting, but to me this is an observation I've made from reading your posts. Here is what I know. I am still learning the creative process. I am still learning about writing and editing. I know that I don't know it all! I know that I have more to learn. I know I have a very good professional relationship with Palladium and Kevin. I'm learning my strengths and weaknesses in writing. I've written seven books and have contributed to just as many. Would you care to elaborate on your experience with writing and editing? You're right. I made an assumption that you don't understand the creative process. So please tell me your experiences.

Don't put words in my mouth.

[jaymz]

Ok then to further that, woudl it not be better to learn by doing rather than being told or reading hte differences? In other words Kevin makes the notes of changes that are needed and give you the opportunity to edit and make the fixes he thinks are neededin stead of you doing essentially one complete draft of a manuscript to never see it again or be given the opportunity to try and change it yourself to meet his expectations? Most people I have spoken to who have been published are given this opportunity and do not have thei work changed and rewritten by others to the extent that Kevins seems to do.

I understand where you're coming from although I don't know if that still holds true today? My experience is limited to Palladium.

Also I never assumed anything about you I asked a question. It was a yes or no question nothing more.

Sorry jaymz, but that was a baited question laced with assumption that even a lawyer would be proud of.

Furhter more why is yourself and other always assume we (the unwashed apparently) don't understand the creative process. Please give some of us a little more credit than you and others seem willing too.

Sorry it was not meant to be insulting, but to me this is an observation I've made from reading your posts. Here is what I know. I am still learning the creative process. I am still learning about writing and editing. I know that I don't know it all! I know that I have more to learn. I know I have a very good professional relationship with Palladium and Kevin. I'm learning my strengths and weaknesses in writing. I've written seven books and have contributed to just as many. Would you care to elaborate on your experience with writing and editing? You're right. I made an assumption that you don't understand the creative process. So please tell me your experiences.

Don't put words in my mouth.

The people I know that have been published (relatively recently) are given the opportunity to edit and do rewrites themselves and not somene else doing them then telling them what was done after the fact.


My question was not meant to be baited, I was honestly asking you a straight question (at least I thought it was) to which you could have just answered no you didn't and I would have been content with that answer.


As for my experiences...I write all the time (I just rarely share it with anyone since I am my own worst critic). I know first hand that somedays it comes some days it doesn't. Going back over ones work will invariably lead to changes being made. Not may be. Will be. It is human nature to do so. Even more so with one's own work. Much of this is applicable to any form of art be it writing, acting, music or drawing (the latter 2 I also attempt in what time I have, more now than previous but winter lay offs will do that ). One does not have to be a published/succesful writer/artist to understand the process.

As for my statement about the great unwashed....I was not intending to put words in your mouth. It was more as an aside, thus the parentheses around it, how many of us are regarded by those who do not think any of us understand the process Nothing more. My apologies if it came across otherwise.

[Carl Gleba]

The people I know that have been published (relatively recently) are given the opportunity to edit and do rewrites themselves and not somene else doing them then telling them what was done after the fact.

Can you (or would you mind) sharing what line of business this is in?

As for my experiences...I write all the time (I just rarely share it with anyone since I am my own worst critic). I know first hand that somedays it comes some days it doesn't. Going back over ones work will invariably lead to changes being made. Not may be. Will be. It is human nature to do so. Even more so with one's own work. Much of this is applicable to any form of art be it writing, acting, music or drawing (the latter 2 I also attempt in what time I have, more now than previous but winter lay offs will do that ). One does not have to be a published/succesful writer/artist to understand the process.

Cool, glad to see you write. You should try your hand at a Rifter submission.

[jaymz]

The people I know that have been published (relatively recently) are given the opportunity to edit and do rewrites themselves and not somene else doing them then telling them what was done after the fact.

Can you (or would you mind) sharing what line of business this is in?

[/quote]

One writes sci-fi the others writes vampire/goth/horror short stories.

I've debated writing for the rifter many a time beleive me. The critic in me gets the better of me all the time however.

[Carl Gleba]

One writes sci-fi the others writes vampire/goth/horror short stories.

So they write for a publishing house?

[jaymz]

One writes sci-fi the others writes vampire/goth/horror short stories.

So they write for a publishing house?

I believe they freelance but I know one of them has had short stories published more by one place than any other. I don't recal the name offhand and would have contact them to find out. I do know that while writing they were given multiple opportunitites to de rewrites of thier own work after the publishng editor read it. I think the 4th draft is the one they had published for the last story they did.

[Silveressa]

Letting the original writer do the edits sounds like the most efficient and logical process when it comes to making a manuscript print worthy. It not only removes all the work form the publishers people, but it also lets the writer improve their quality and have a far clearer idea of how to write in whatever style the publisher wants.

Bottlenecking it though a single person is... Pointless? I can't honestly see an upside to it from a business or product standpoint.

[Goliath Strongarm]

It's kinda funny... was recently reading some interviews with my fave author, and she was talking about how it could be a pain, because (especially early in her career) editors/publishers kept pushing everything back, telling her "just rewrite this part a bit and we'll buy it".

PB is the only place I know of where they'll accept the book from the author, then do massive rewrites themselves.

[azazel1024]

It's kinda funny... was recently reading some interviews with my fave author, and she was talking about how it could be a pain, because (especially early in her career) editors/publishers kept pushing everything back, telling her "just rewrite this part a bit and we'll buy it".

PB is the only place I know of where they'll accept the book from the author, then do massive rewrites themselves.

+1.

I had always figured (until I found out 6 months or so ago) it operated much like most publishing houses that had the author write the book, then the editor(s) would read it over for a week or two jotting down notes and suggestions and send it back to the author for a rewrite. Author sends it back, editors look it over, rinse and repeat. I couldn't figure out why so few books tended to get published because of my misconception.

It lets a small team of editors have fairly large say in the creative process if done right and also allows the production of a lot of books at once if the editing person/team is only taking up 1-2 weeks at a time reviewing a book. Even with 3-4 reviews per book through multiple drafts you come out with anything from 8-15 books a year probably. Running a business will take up a lot of time in there, certainly, but it still sounds like a much more efficient process. Especially if the editor is sending notes, as detailed as they need to be, on additions/modifications to fit a creative idea that the editor has.

I'd certainly love to see more books come out, but whatever. I'd sort of agree that it seems like PB is constantly promising a much greater output than they ever manage. Hopes, dreams and ideals are nice, but reality never seems to match claims. I honestly can't remember back far enough before the crisis of treachery, but at least since then output doesn't seem to be much higher than 6-8 books a year maximum, in a good year, not including the rifter, and in some years it is more like 4-5 books. Yet in a number of news letters, I'll call these wish lists, wish lists have anything from 10 upwards of 12-14 books they hope to publish in a given year.

The recent Press Release has 8 books listed for 2011. I don't have any of the older ones handy, but I seem to recall at least another 3 or 4 books that had been suggested as being produced in the next 12 month period give or take a little if you go back to August/Septemberish.

I will applaud PB in that they have gotten a little better at not trying to announce a release month for books more than 1 or 2 out.
-Matt

[Damian Magecraft]

It's kinda funny... was recently reading some interviews with my fave author, and she was talking about how it could be a pain, because (especially early in her career) editors/publishers kept pushing everything back, telling her "just rewrite this part a bit and we'll buy it".

PB is the only place I know of where they'll accept the book from the author, then do massive rewrites themselves.

It would be nice if it were done that way but then you also get the following situation (I watched it develop with my ex).

Publisher: Re-write these sections and we will buy your stuff.
Ex: What the **** is wrong with it the way it is? to re-write it the way you want it is to make it crap! **** this I will shop it around.

she never did sell it. and eventually gave up trying.

Or instead of complaints that no product is forth coming because Kevin is re-writing the books to meet his vision of the setting the forums would be filled with complaints that no products are forth coming because the writers are constantly re-writing the books to meet that vision.

No matter how you look at it the books still have to meet Kevins vision of the setting and ultimately only one person sees that vision. That is what has kept the quality of the books so high for so long.

[Cinos]

A problem comes up when you cannot teach someone your vision. If you cannot infect others with this vision, and then TRUST them to take that vision and allow their own perspective to color it further and grow from that, you stagnate and will eventually wither. Change is needed in all things, for it to grow and shift. Failure to do so will lead only to collapse, which is the very crutch of the problem here (Don't tell me a 10+ Backlog of unreleased books that should have been out a year ago isn't stagnation). At least from my perspective, it's been Kevin's greatest challenge and fault is his inability to let someone else do the bulk of it, and the exact reason I never hold my breath over a Palladium release, and when I see an up and coming, figure I'll still have a chance to get it by pre-order within a year -or so-.

As to editors who don't get their way, yeah, sometimes it happens, at times what you thought was good really wasn't, or is not at all in the vein of the publication by one of the editors reasoning. That's the business, I've yet to get any sales in any work of art I've produced (Painting or writing), it's a fickle world, you either stave yourself and hope someone buys it, or you make a comprise (which may or may not include lovingly butchering your greatest work to make a dime).

As far as I'm concerned, most of the common freelancers should be in house staff (Carl and two that did Madhaven jump to mind at least for Rifts, Aten and White if I recall, been a while), for the sole reason to speed editing, and to really give them greater access to some more creative control, and editing their own work, both to lower the work load through Kevin, help increase a writers ability to write (NOTHING in the world makes you get it right faster then having to fix it yourself, even more so with a labor of love like writing), but also to help facilitate the creative collective that's so important to world building, no one person will ever make a good world, there's too much stuff, and too many sides to it, it requires many opinions thoughts and choices. (Movies that have a collective helping run it are almost always run well together, those that go through fewer people, often run into the ground, a reason why most movies that manage to get to the point the original direct went from no-name to calling the shots, their movies start to decline, no one is saying no and others ideas aren't getting changed or put in, Look at Lucas for example).

[Goliath Strongarm]

Here's the problem in a nutshell though.

Because RIFTs players will buy anything, RIFTs pays the bills.

PB focuses on RIFTs, because it pays the bills.

PB gradually ignores their other labels to a greater degree, focusing more on Rifts.

Because RIFTs gets all the focus, RIFTs pays the greater portion of the bills.

Because RIFTs pays the greater portion of the bills, PB focuses more on RIFTs.

See the trend?



The last person who actually seemed to give a damn about PF apparently now has some issues with PB and/or KS specifically. Personally, I think KS should go kowtow, pucker up, and kiss Bill Coffin's butt until Bill will come back and take over the PF line.

[Cinos]

Here's the problem in a nutshell though.

Because RIFTs players will buy anything, RIFTs pays the bills.

PB focuses on RIFTs, because it pays the bills.

PB gradually ignores their other labels to a greater degree, focusing more on Rifts.

Because RIFTs gets all the focus, RIFTs pays the greater portion of the bills.

Because RIFTs pays the greater portion of the bills, PB focuses more on RIFTs.

See the trend?



The last person who actually seemed to give a damn about PF apparently now has some issues with PB and/or KS specifically. Personally, I think KS should go kowtow, pucker up, and kiss Bill Coffin's butt until Bill will come back and take over the PF line.

You forgot a step; They then announce a bunch of books for things that aren't Rifts and don't deliver and embitter their fans.

I do agree with your assessment on both points however.

[TechnoGothic]

Palladium actually has at least three editors that I know of. Kevin, Alex and Wayne. I also believe that everyone in the office can do multiple jobs when it come to producing product. It is my understanding that Kevin is quality control. Books just don't get put out with his once through. After all it is his company and I can't blame him for wanting to make sure good product is put out. Also given Palladium's current situation they just don't have the resources to hire extra help at this time.

I hear what you folks are saying in that PF does need support and that there are people out there willing to buy the product. The problem is that Rifts at the moment out sells PF and Palladium needs that cash to keep going. They can't afford to work on a book, pay to print it, and only sell 1/10 of what a new Rifts book would sell. From a business point of view you need to make the hard decisions that are best for the company and may not be the most popular decision with the fans. Does it suck? Yes. Is Palladium trying to alienate its PF fans? Heck no!

i agree, but i hope someone steps up to the plate (how about you Carl? i really enjoyed your work on hades/dyval). fantasy is the only palladium game i still play these days (years actually).

Thanks t0m. I'm glad you enjoyed Hades and Dyval At this time my book ideas are for Rifts Dimension books. As i did with Hades and Dyval they will have M.D.C./S.D.C. stats to make them compatible with PF should GM decide to use them. I don't have any big ideas at the moment for PF, but if I do I would certainly love to write and contribute something to the setting.

Carl

HOLLOW EARTH aka HOLLOW PALLADIA.

With all the Subterrain Races out there in the setting, the world might be pretty cool inside the Hollow Realm within the planet. Great ideas. Steampunk inventions maybe. New Cultures seperated for eons from the surface dwellers.

[MADMANMIKE]

You might also not be aware of this but Palladium also has three editors. If you open the credits page of most books you'll see Alex and Wayne are also editors. I too wish Palladium had about ten more people with multiple projects being worked on at one time, but wishing won't change the situation. Kevin and crew are making the best of what they have with the limited resources they have.

Yes they have 3 editors but KEVIN is hte bittleneck. Alex and Wayne do not see one page until after Kevin gts his first crack at it. That is where the bottleneck truly is. Alex and Wayne only see what is essentially a near finished product. Kevin himself has said Alex and Wyane typically look for typing erros, gramtical etc. That leaves kevin as THE editor combined with doing whatever rewrites he deems neccessary prior to Alex and Wayne ever seeing one printed page of a manuscript.

This leads to another perceived problem. Kevin has repeatedly said on sevral boks that what he has seen is "incredible", "amazing", "awesome" or "genius". If the manuscript he has seen is one or all of these thigns then no offense ther shoudl be no creative process causing him to take 3-4 months to edits and rewrites to a book since it was alread a work that "incredible", "amazing", "awesome" or "genius".

Surely CArl you must question your work if it has been praised as such only to Have Kevin take that long to edit and rewrote portions of it?

This is something that bothers me about post like this. I don't question the way Kevin runs HIS business. Kevin and his crew have been running Palladium for 30 years. I was a kid when I first played Palladium's games and have been writing for a little less than ten years. Who am I to question what is the best and fastest way to get a book to print. To assume I know better than Kevin is arrogent presumption. I have the privledge of being a Palladium insider and even I don't know everything that goes on inside Palladium on a day to day basis. So when you say Kevin is the bottleneck, you are right in that it is a perceived problem. All members of the Palladium crew play a role in the publication of a book. Who can blame Kevin for wanting to maintain quality control? If his name is going on the book can you blame the guy.

Now as for the bolded part you are assuming things about me. Even if I wasn't a Palladium insider I still read the murmurs and the weekly updates. Kevin clearly indicated that he has been busy with other business functions. When it comes to the editing of my books I accepted long ago that Kevin can and will make changes, despite how much he likes it. Again this is the creative process. Say I mentioned some small idea that I perceived as minor, but Kevin thinks otherwise and decided to expand upon it. Additionally I could have several pages on something that could be condensed down to a single page or paragraph so Kevion cuts it, only to find out later in the book that I reference that info so Kevin has to go back and retool it to mesh. I understand this unlike some other freelancers and accept that changes can and will be made. When Kevin makes changes I review them, compare them to what I wrote and take that as an oppertunity to try and improve my writing. You can learn a lot about the creative process by listening to some of the pod cast where Kevin talks about it. They are very informative. So to answer your question, no i don't have to question Kevin becuase I am involved in the creative process and i understand it.

-Mike

[Shawn Merrow]

HOLLOW EARTH aka HOLLOW PALLADIA.

With all the Subterrain Races out there in the setting, the world might be pretty cool inside the Hollow Realm within the planet. Great ideas. Steampunk inventions maybe. New Cultures seperated for eons from the surface dwellers.

Bill did put some interesting hints in Mount Nimro about the underground. I would love to see them expanded.

[The Beast]

Here's the problem in a nutshell though.

Because RIFTs players will buy anything, RIFTs pays the bills.

PB focuses on RIFTs, because it pays the bills.

PB gradually ignores their other labels to a greater degree, focusing more on Rifts.

Because RIFTs gets all the focus, RIFTs pays the greater portion of the bills.

Because RIFTs pays the greater portion of the bills, PB focuses more on RIFTs.

See the trend?



The last person who actually seemed to give a damn about PF apparently now has some issues with PB and/or KS specifically. Personally, I think KS should go kowtow, pucker up, and kiss Bill Coffin's butt until Bill will come back and take over the PF line.

You forgot a step; They then announce a bunch of books for things that aren't Rifts and don't deliver and embitter their fans.

I do agree with your assessment on both points however.

Seconded.

[Cinos]

HOLLOW EARTH aka HOLLOW PALLADIA.

With all the Subterrain Races out there in the setting, the world might be pretty cool inside the Hollow Realm within the planet. Great ideas. Steampunk inventions maybe. New Cultures seperated for eons from the surface dwellers.

Bill did put some interesting hints in Mount Nimro about the underground. I would love to see them expanded.

As well as in Baal-Gore (The mysterious Demons of the Deep which the Baalizd are fleeing from, an idea I've already tapped for one of my games).

[Goliath Strongarm]

Company A puts out a few different games. Products rate about a 75% quality, and rate about 40% on price (they're a tad expensive).

Company B puts out a few different games. Quality is in the 90-95% range, and price is more like 75% (pretty good prices, compared to any other company).

People choose company B, obviously.

Now, let's make some slight adjustments...

Company A releases material on a fairly regular basis for all settings/genres.

Company B slows down the material it releases for all except 1 genre. All other games they make MAY see 1-2 books in a year, but their fantasy setting sees more like 2-3 books every 2-3 years. Or WORSE.

People go where the product is, so they shift to Company A. Company B loses more revenue, so they push even more focus into the one game they were making plenty of. After all, it pays the bills. Because of this, even MORE people start shifting to Company A, so they can get material for games in their preferred genre.

And PB wonders why they are losing their Fantasy fanbase...

[azazel1024]

Yeah Goliath, that is what kind of makes me sad. I love Rifts, and it is probably my favorite setting. However, it bothers me that most other settings don't see any love.

In terms of the number of books produced, PFRPG is PBs second largest setting, but it has seen all of 1 all new book in something like 5-6 years. Wolfen was really a rewrite with added material and I think the last new book was LOD 2 in something like 2005 or 6 before Mysteries of Magic.

It would be amazing to see even just 1 new book every year for PFRPG and maybe 2 books for other settings (HU2, Dead Reign, maybe see some system shock or splicers source books, Nightbane, etc), that is 2 books for all of them, so maybe one for HU2 and one for Nightbane one year, one for Dead Reign and one for System Shock the next, etc. Of course it would be lovely to see a lot more product than that, but it is a lot of different game systems to support (dare I say too many? I wouldn't go so far as to say that PB shouldn't support some of them, but officially acknowledging that some of them are at least unofficially dead and/or don't have any books, even in concept stage lined up at all for the foreseeable future/years).

Even if just 3 books for other game lines were produced a year, that would still probably leave 4-6 Rifts books a year (if they can get their stuff together a little better).
-Matt

[Goliath Strongarm]

Even if just 3 books for other game lines were produced a year, that would still probably leave 4-6 Rifts books a year (if they can get their stuff together a little better).
-Matt

Now, you admitted that RIFTs is your preferred game. That's ok, the simple fact that you're here in the PF forums means that there IS hope for you!

My experience with a LOT of players though is that they have one primary genre that they will play, with the occassional dabble in another (usually to put some space between campaigns of their primary genre).

Myself, I'm a fantasy gamer. I've played TONS of games, in tons of genres, but it all revolves around fantasy. Even when I was playing Star Wars (d20 version sucked, D6 rules!), it was to put space between our fantasy campaigns. Give the GM some time to reset, let people take some time to ponder their next characters, etc. Or if the GM didn't have the next adventure finished, we'd pull out a pre-made for another game, snatch up our character sheets for that, and run with it for a night or two.

Over the course of about 3 years, I gradually slipped away from PF. It wasn't entirely by choice. You have to go with what games the players you find will accept. After allowing the members to completely go through my PF books, some things were pointed out.

#1- I know there were magics that were cut from some of BC's books. Bill was giving us great stuff. But a lot of it was just "setting". Don't get me wrong- if I had the money, I'd spend whatever I had to in order to get the rights for PF, and have BC put in charge of it! But, there was nothing holding up the setting material. Sure, there were some plot hooks, and some HLS in each book. But, there were no full adventures (which would actually sell pretty well, based on other companies success). There were details on people you'd most likely NEVER encounter (and they actually seemed pretty damned weak!). But, there weren't details about a bunch of the "normal" stuff you WOULD encounter. From what I understand, there was actually a LOT that was cut- maybe that's part of the problem.

#2- Northern Wilderness was a disappointment. Some good stuff, but a LOT of stuff that was right out of the 1st edition books. So, what's the big deal about the book? It's not a whole lot better than just a reprint..

#3- When you go through the various books, you can TELL where Kevin "added" things. Why? The way they're written, and the quality. Look, KS created a WONDERFUL, BEAUTIFUL setting that I absolutely love. However, he has so much on his plate that when he adds to books, those sections look rushed and half-$$$ed compared to the rest. It doesn't mesh right.

#4- The "megaversal" rule system isn't. Skill "sets" vs individual skills. Sometimes you'll find different percentages for the same skill between settings. MDC/SDC. 2 attacks for living (which we THINK phased in to PF, but there's nothing anywhere that fully clarifies it!). Super abilities vs magic vs psi. PS vs SN PS vs mechanical PS. ETC ETC.

#5- How often do we see books? Seriously. Wait.. let me double check something.. let's see.. 1995.. "coming soon: Old Kingdom Mountains and Old Kingdom Lowlands". Yes, I know, the old OK rant. But, Take the main competitor for PB. When was the last time that they said a book was "coming soon" and then you never saw it? When was the last time they put a book on pre-order that didn't have a release date, let alone a release date within a few months?

And now you see why PF has been losing its fan base. We're not puppies. If you drop us off in the woods, we're not going to wander back home. We're going to look for someone who WILL take care of us and our needs!

[The Dark Elf]

I think you should all email PB and tell them to look over the PFRPG manuscript they got yesterday.

Might be the best thing ever. Might be complete trash but who knows!

[t0m]

I think you should all email PB and tell them to look over the PFRPG manuscript they got yesterday.

Might be the best thing ever. Might be complete trash but who knows!

[azazel1024]

Actually I lean towards the Phase World subset of Rifts first and foremost, PFRPG second and Rifts Earth settings third for my preference.

I am just a man dying of thirst in the desert here with PFRPG. I'll take a cup of water, even if it only prolongs the inevitable a little longer.

It would really be nice if PB could just get another book or two out. It sounds vaguely like another mysteries of magic book could be produced on relatively short order. A couple of other PFRPG book manuscripts also sound like they are laying around PB headquarters, though no clue how much they'd need to be turned in to polished books.

Heck, Yin Sloth 2nd edition was supposed to have been polished off awhile ago. Unless there was a whole lot of new material they were planning on putting in (and I don't mind new material, no sir I don't!), it seems to me it wouldn't take more than a week or so of work for a single person to update stat blocks, skills and do a little re-balancing tweak here and there (now that SDC and HP are in the mix). Maybe another week of work to do a little updating to maybe bring Yin Sloth in to the 'current' PFRPG timeline with the other books.
-Matt

[Shawn Merrow]

Yin-Sloth Jungles 2nd has been turned in, its now just waiting to be looked at.

[azazel1024]

Yin-Sloth Jungles 2nd has been turned in, its now just waiting to be looked at.

I hope that is soon.

Maybe after Thundercloud Galaxy I hope. Though I suspect it'll take until after at least WB:1 Vampire Kingdom revision is out the door if not also the new Vampire sourcebook.
-Matt

[jaymz]

Yin-Sloth Jungles 2nd has been turned in, its now just waiting to be looked at.

I hope that is soon.

Maybe after Thundercloud Galaxy I hope. Though I suspect it'll take until after at least WB:1 Vampire Kingdom revision is out the door if not also the new Vampire sourcebook.
-Matt

And don;t forget he is still finishing Armaggedon Unlimted beofre getting to Tcloud or hte Robotech books, Lemuria, Chaos Earth, megaverse in flames....

[azazel1024]

Hopefully he can take a week to get the book out before some of those projects. I'd think it wouldn't take much more than a (real) editorial review and to the printer. I'd think there wouldn't be any need for additional writing for the book.
-Matt

PS I've noticed there has been no mention of any additional work on Armagedon Unlimited in the last 2-3 weeks. I get the suprise packages take up a lot of time, plus running the business and recent tragedy...but I am beginging to suspect end of January release of AU is probably optimistic at this point, and mid to late March on TCloud is probably more likely as well.

[jaymz]

Hopefully he can take a week to get the book out before some of those projects. I'd think it wouldn't take much more than a (real) editorial review and to the printer. I'd think there wouldn't be any need for additional writing for the book.
-Matt

PS I've noticed there has been no mention of any additional work on Armagedon Unlimited in the last 2-3 weeks. I get the suprise packages take up a lot of time, plus running the business and recent tragedy...but I am beginging to suspect end of January release of AU is probably optimistic at this point, and mid to late March on TCloud is probably more likely as well.

I;d be happy to get 4-5 of the books that are in the line up by years end.

[azazel1024]

Hopefully he can take a week to get the book out before some of those projects. I'd think it wouldn't take much more than a (real) editorial review and to the printer. I'd think there wouldn't be any need for additional writing for the book.
-Matt

PS I've noticed there has been no mention of any additional work on Armagedon Unlimited in the last 2-3 weeks. I get the suprise packages take up a lot of time, plus running the business and recent tragedy...but I am beginging to suspect end of January release of AU is probably optimistic at this point, and mid to late March on TCloud is probably more likely as well.

I;d be happy to get 4-5 of the books that are in the line up by years end.

Considering the slow end of the year (with some good reasons) I'd certainly agree that 4-5 of the books would be nice even.
-Matt

[The Beast]

Hopefully he can take a week to get the book out before some of those projects. I'd think it wouldn't take much more than a (real) editorial review and to the printer. I'd think there wouldn't be any need for additional writing for the book.
-Matt

PS I've noticed there has been no mention of any additional work on Armagedon Unlimited in the last 2-3 weeks. I get the suprise packages take up a lot of time, plus running the business and recent tragedy...but I am beginging to suspect end of January release of AU is probably optimistic at this point, and mid to late March on TCloud is probably more likely as well.

I;d be happy to get 4-5 of the books that are in the line up by years end.

Considering the slow end of the year (with some good reasons) I'd certainly agree that 4-5 of the books would be nice even.
-Matt

I'd be happy to get just LotD3.