On Impervious to Horror Factor.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Seriously?
The scared person loses an attack and can't defend against the next attack from whatever scared them.
That can cause a battle to be won or lost right there.

They loose one attack and can't defend against the creature's first attack, and attacked last in the melee according to the old RMB (changed that up I believe in RUE). Since the creature itself has no way of knowing who is or isn't affected by its HF, who it attacked I always determined that randomly. So if they failed their save, but didn't get attacked, that was it and were able to act normal, although last for that melee. Actually my players sometimes found a tactical advantage to going last in the melee.

Not last to be attack. Last to act in initiative. always been that way.

Sorry yes that's what I meant. I should really not post before I'm completely awake. KC dinged me too (again).

[Dustin Fireblade]

The more I think about this, I really don't see the big deal to be honest.

We have one "mundane" trained OCC that is immune to HF (the Paratrooper)
We have one "magic" trained OCC that is immune to HF (the Magebane)

Not sure if there is a psi-based one or not, or if there are any others. Those are the only two that I know of. Out of how many OCC's?

[Severus Snape]

Let me make this plain and simple: The OP asked about the possibility of making those with Impervious to Horror Factor roll a saving throw anyways, but giving them a bonus to the roll. This isn't a discussion about what would or should scare a character, it's about nothing more than those characters who are impervious. For those of you who need the definition:

im·per·vi·ous
[im-pur-vee-uhs]

–adjective
1. not permitting penetration or passage; impenetrable: The coat is impervious to rain.
2. incapable of being injured or impaired: impervious to wear and tear.
3. incapable of being influenced, persuaded, or affected: impervious to reason; impervious to another's suffering.

See the bolded/italicized portion of the above definition. Being impervious means to be incapable of being influence, persuaded, or affected. In this case, we are talking about being incapable of being affected by horror factor. It has zero affect on a character, no matter what someone says otherwise. The OCC for the character in question for the OP is impervious to horror factor, meaning that HF has zero affect on them. No rolls are needed - the PC is considered to automatically save because HF cannot influence or affect them.

And again, I state that this has nothing to do with any particular situation that the PC may find themselves in. It doesn't matter what they are viewing, or what is happening, or anything else like that. They are impervious. Period.

Yes, I realize that all Palladium games are house-rules bonanzas, amd that any rule that is in existence can be changed, modified, or thrown out completely. If the OP wishes to throw the rule out, then so be it. If anybody else here wants to throw the rule out, then so be it. But in the context of the original question, the answer should still be that the PC is unaffected by HF of any kind, no matter what the HF of the creature in question is.

[Dustin Fireblade]

I agree with Dog_O_War.

These guys are the elite of the elite in terms of military training. Best of the best type stuff. As the book mentions they aren't just a "paratrooper" they are US Marines, Army Rangers and Navy SEALS rolled in one.

If Marines, Rangers, or SEALS were immune to fear when demons are after them, that'd matter.
But they're not.

You missed the point here. Those operators are not the type to freak out. The Paratrooper OCC takes this to the Rifts level. I'll point out again that these guys are super-soldiers through intense training. This is their thing. They are not supermen with the powers of a Juicer, Crazy or Cyborg, I don't see this immunity as being more powerful than a Mega-Juicer or a Russian Cyborg Shocktrooper power level.

[Killer Cyborg]

If Marines, Rangers, or SEALS were immune to fear when demons are after them, that'd matter.
But they're not.

You missed the point here. Those operators are not the type to freak out. The Paratrooper OCC takes this to the Rifts level. I'll point out again that these guys are super-soldiers through intense training. This is their thing. They are not supermen with the powers of a Juicer, Crazy or Cyborg, I don't see this immunity as being more powerful than a Mega-Juicer or a Russian Cyborg Shocktrooper power level.

I didn't miss the point; the point is wrong.
"Not the type to freak out" doesn't mean "Cannot be scared under any circumstances."

[Killer Cyborg]

I've always read it as a person is "frozen in place" with "momentary" fear - a single attack. I don't think it says anything about a person running away or putting their head in the sand or some such. If it did then I missed it.

"Overcome with horror" is the phrase.
How they respond to this is, I suppose, subject to how the player role-plays their character's fear.
But when somebody is stunned with horror, they aren't realistically going to just sit there motionless; this isn't Freeze Tag.
They're going to react the same way that people normally react when they're overcome with fear: crying, pants-wetting, shrieking, cowering, etc.

I'd also point out that I've never had group just walking around Rifts Earth like they are on the Yellow Brick Road. They are always dispersered. So the monster scared the guy 50 meters away? Great, it just has to deal with the guy walking point. There's that tactical advantage coming into play.

Pointless to get into specifics, because it all depends on the monster(s) and the situation.

There's also no way I'm rolling dice multiple times for a bunch of monsters, and forcing my players to counter each roll.

Because it sounds like a lot of work?
Perhaps it is, but that doesn't change the rules of the game.

[Dustin Fireblade]

If Marines, Rangers, or SEALS were immune to fear when demons are after them, that'd matter.
But they're not.

You missed the point here. Those operators are not the type to freak out. The Paratrooper OCC takes this to the Rifts level. I'll point out again that these guys are super-soldiers through intense training. This is their thing. They are not supermen with the powers of a Juicer, Crazy or Cyborg, I don't see this immunity as being more powerful than a Mega-Juicer or a Russian Cyborg Shocktrooper power level.

I didn't miss the point; the point is wrong.
"Not the type to freak out" doesn't mean "Cannot be scared under any circumstances."

Didn't say they couldn't be scared - I said they won't freak out, or to use your examples - crying, pants-wetting, shrieking, cowering, etc.

They can most certainly be scared of something - they just refuse to let it overcome them. As their "Nerves of Steel" class description says, "For most, this is a blend of training, experience and a rock-steady disposition, to which freaking out is not acceptable behavior."

Again: a super-soldier with a special ability.

But when somebody is stunned with horror, they aren't realistically going to just sit there motionless; this isn't Freeze Tag

Well first, personal experience has told me otherwise. Anyone "momentarily stunned" is going to look like a statue. At least for a few seconds. There's nothing in the description of HF in RUE that states they fall down shaking/quivering in fear, running away or anything else.

Second, this is only a momentary lapse if the save fails. Two or three seconds at the most. Or one attack/action as described under Horror Factor in RUE.

Third, the character can start fighting the same melee round.



Yes rolling dice a dozen times before combat actually begins would be a lot of work. What I would do, is simply take a creature's HF rating and up it depending on the numbers. I believe that's how it was done with the Xiticix originally when the RMB came out.

[Killer Cyborg]

"Not the type to freak out" doesn't mean "Cannot be scared under any circumstances."

Didn't say they couldn't be scared - I said they won't freak out

Same diff.
If you like, I'll rephrase: "Not the type to freak out" is not the same as "incapable of freaking out under any circumstances."

a super-soldier with a special ability.

Except for the "super" part.
They're just soldiers who have been granted an ability that they shouldn't have.

But when somebody is stunned with horror, they aren't realistically going to just sit there motionless; this isn't Freeze Tag

Well first, personal experience has told me otherwise.

Rather than asking you to regale me with stories of the times you faced down demons, I'll just move on.

Anyone "momentarily stunned" is going to look like a statue. At least for a few seconds. There's nothing in the description of HF in RUE that states they fall down shaking/quivering in fear, running away or anything else.

As I said, that's role-playing.
But hey, let's go with your scenario instead.
All the creature has to do is attack the people frozen like statues instead of the ones reaching for their weapons or otherwise moving/reacting.

Second, this is only a momentary lapse if the save fails. Two or three seconds at the most. Or one attack/action as described under Horror Factor in RUE.

Again, roleplaying.
Something just scared the ever-loving crap out of you, realistically you're not going right back to normal. You can choose to fight, of course, but that's not the choice that every person would make.
A lot of the time, retreating is a lot more in character.

Third, the character can start fighting the same melee round.

So?

Yes rolling dice a dozen times before combat actually begins would be a lot of work. What I would do, is simply take a creature's HF rating and up it depending on the numbers. I believe that's how it was done with the Xiticix originally when the RMB came out.

Depending on how you read it, I suppose.

[Dustin Fireblade]

All the creature has to do is attack the people frozen like statues instead of the ones reaching for their weapons or otherwise moving/reacting.

I suppose if they are in range of the target who failed the save. Or maybe be a little smarter and try to take down the target that's lining up a head shot....

Something just scared the ever-loving crap out of you, realistically you're not going right back to normal.

Except that's exactly what happens. A person who fails their save can fight as normal within seconds after failing their save, as I outlined above and as described under the HF write-up.


I'm also curious - why would you not consider the Paratrooper OCC a type of super-soldier?

[Dustin Fireblade]

Anyone care to guess why ISS Peacekeepers get such good bonuses to save vs HF?

[Cinos]

Anyone care to guess why ISS Peacekeepers get such good bonuses to save vs HF?

Clockwork Orange style training, once you see endless video streams of that sort of stuff, you become numb.

[Damian Magecraft]

Anyone care to guess why ISS Peacekeepers get such good bonuses to save vs HF?

Clockwork Orange style training, once you see endless video streams of that sort of stuff, you become numb.

But it is just a "high" bonus not an immunity.

[The Beast]

Anyone care to guess why ISS Peacekeepers get such good bonuses to save vs HF?

Because some idiot wrote it into the description.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Anyone care to guess why ISS Peacekeepers get such good bonuses to save vs HF?

Because some idiot wrote it into the description.

Well that would be Kevin Siembieda.


Any better idea's on the why though?

[Dog_O_War]

No, it's really, really, really not.
Training is real.
Magic is not.
Having something real do absurd things is different from having something fictional do absurd things.

Their training is as real as magic.
Also known as "does not exist". Just look at what they can do; clearly it's fictional given that they are "marksmen" while falling through the sky, bonuses to save versus psionics, and extra mega-damage due to their training (if you were already MD). None of that screams "real".

There's no copyright on any of Lovecraft's work.

Yeah, that's great.
I believe that Chaosium may have a say on Cthulu though.

I didn't say "scary guy."
I said "Cthulu."
(You can go "Cthulu-like" if you want, but it nets out the same. )
If you don't get the difference between the two, then you don't get the scenario I asked about.

Cthulu is just one of a hundred different supernatural horrors that have spawned from various writers' minds over the years. I lump them all into the same category "scary guys" because there is nothing saying "who is the biggest bad-ass" amongst them. He's no scarier than the Devil, and there are literally hundreds of representations of that guy all over fiction and fantasy, let alone Rifts.

The guy is not unique, he's just the scariest guy in his own little realm.
That is, as far as Rifts is concerned, he's just another schmuck.

No, it wouldn't.
If it DID, then Grunts would have the same ability. A giant critter about to swallow your soul is a giant critter about to swallow your soul, and it's not significantly scarier if you jumped out of an airplane first.

Break that down, then work it backwards.

Getting your soul swallowed is scary. = x

Falling out of the sky while under fire is scary. = y

x + y = z

If x + y = z, then x alone cannot equal z, because it lacks y.
Therefor Falling out of the sky under heavy fire with the additional threat of getting your soul sucked on landing is clearly more scary than only one part of this equation.

[Killer Cyborg]

No, it's really, really, really not.
Training is real.
Magic is not.
Having something real do absurd things is different from having something fictional do absurd things.

Their training is as real as magic.

More real. There actually ARE paratroopers in real life, and the training of fictional paratroopers is going to be very similar.

Just look at what they can do; clearly it's fictional given that they are "marksmen" while falling through the sky, bonuses to save versus psionics, and extra mega-damage due to their training (if you were already MD). None of that screams "real".

It all screams "crap."
But a surplus of crap doesn't justify other crap.

There's no copyright on any of Lovecraft's work.

Yeah, that's great.
I believe that Chaosium may have a say on Cthulu though.

Not so much, no. Though they can try to claim rights over it, Cthulu is open property to anybody who wants to use him/it as a character.

Cthulu is just one of a hundred different supernatural horrors that have spawned from various writers' minds over the years. I lump them all into the same category "scary guys" because there is nothing saying "who is the biggest bad-ass" amongst them. He's no scarier than the Devil, and there are literally hundreds of representations of that guy all over fiction and fantasy, let alone Rifts.

If you think that jumping out of an airplane prepares you to meet the Devil, I think I'm going to have to disagree.
BUT the key difference between the two is that there are plenty of stories where people meet the Devil without going insane from horror.
Not so much with Cthulu.

But as I said, if you don't get it, you don't get it.

No, it wouldn't.
If it DID, then Grunts would have the same ability. A giant critter about to swallow your soul is a giant critter about to swallow your soul, and it's not significantly scarier if you jumped out of an airplane first.

Break that down, then work it backwards.

Getting your soul swallowed is scary. = x

Falling out of the sky while under fire is scary. = y

x + y = z

If x + y = z, then x alone cannot equal z, because it lacks y.
Therefor Falling out of the sky under heavy fire with the additional threat of getting your soul sucked on landing is clearly more scary than only one part of this equation.

This isn't math, so that doesn't actually work.

[Killer Cyborg]

All the creature has to do is attack the people frozen like statues instead of the ones reaching for their weapons or otherwise moving/reacting.

I suppose if they are in range of the target who failed the save. Or maybe be a little smarter and try to take down the target that's lining up a head shot....

Only if a head shot is likely to take it down. Otherwise it's better to attack the helpless target to be sure to get a good hit in.
But again, it's all dependent on the specific scenario, so it's pointless to go back and forth over it.

Something just scared the ever-loving crap out of you, realistically you're not going right back to normal.

Except that's exactly what happens. A person who fails their save can fight as normal within seconds after failing their save, as I outlined above and as described under the HF write-up.

Your argument for "realistically" is "the rules don't say so."
I'll let that speak for itself.

I'm also curious - why would you not consider the Paratrooper OCC a type of super-soldier?

Why should I?
Do they get shot up with a super-soldier serum?
Do they have super powers?
Or are they just munchy because somebody thought it would be kewl?

[Killer Cyborg]

Anyone care to guess why ISS Peacekeepers get such good bonuses to save vs HF?

Power creep.

[Dustin Fireblade]

More real. There actually ARE paratroopers in real life, and the training of fictional paratroopers is going to be very similar.

Real life paratroopers and the Paratrooper OCC are not really the same, other than sharing a common name.

Honest question - have you actually read the OCC?

[The Beast]

Anyone care to guess why ISS Peacekeepers get such good bonuses to save vs HF?

Because some idiot wrote it into the description.

Well that would be Kevin Siembieda.


Any better idea's on the why though?

I'd like to change the question my answer was actually for. For some reason, I read that as "Why do Paratroopers get the immunity from Horror Factor?"

[Killer Cyborg]

More real. There actually ARE paratroopers in real life, and the training of fictional paratroopers is going to be very similar.

Real life paratroopers and the Paratrooper OCC are not really the same, other than sharing a common name.

No real similarity at all, then?

Honest question - have you actually read the OCC?

Nope. What book/page?

[Dustin Fireblade]

All the creature has to do is attack the people frozen like statues instead of the ones reaching for their weapons or otherwise moving/reacting.

I suppose if they are in range of the target who failed the save. Or maybe be a little smarter and try to take down the target that's lining up a head shot....

Only if a head shot is likely to take it down. Otherwise it's better to attack the helpless target to be sure to get a good hit in.
But again, it's all dependent on the specific scenario, so it's pointless to go back and forth over it.

Yes it is, but it seems to be a point you want to make - someone who fails their save is going to get attacked no matter what.

Your argument for "realistically" is "the rules don't say so."

I know what the rules say. Your interpretation and mine are rather varied to say the least. You seem to want everyone that fails their save to either run away screaming or curl up into a ball

Or are they just munchy because somebody thought it would be kewl?

"Kewl" powers and abilities? I know you have read Rifts Ultimate. How many OCC's have had an ability added that wasn't there before? Like it or not, it's what Rifts has become.

Extensive training shouldn't be invalid vs taking drugs to become a Juicer or getting bionic reconstruction

[Dustin Fireblade]

More real. There actually ARE paratroopers in real life, and the training of fictional paratroopers is going to be very similar.

Real life paratroopers and the Paratrooper OCC are not really the same, other than sharing a common name.

No real similarity at all, then?

Honest question - have you actually read the OCC?

Nope. What book/page?

As mentioned before, the Paratrooper is a US Army Airborne, US Army Ranger, US Navy SEALS and US Marine Corps "rolled up into one lethal package" and they just use the name "Paratrooper" for simplicity sake.

They are in Mercenary Adventures, pg 30.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Anyone care to guess why ISS Peacekeepers get such good bonuses to save vs HF?

Because some idiot wrote it into the description.

Well that would be Kevin Siembieda.


Any better idea's on the why though?

I'd like to change the question my answer was actually for. For some reason, I read that as "Why do Paratroopers get the immunity from Horror Factor?"

Well the Paratrooper is what we've been debating. And the book their were written in was done by Nowak, Bellaire and Siembeida. Apparently all three collaborated on the Paratrooper OCC.


But no, the question about the Peacekeepers is not really related. It seemed most OCC's either get a flat bonus of some sort, or get a bonus every x levels, usually it maxes out around +6 total. The Peacekeeper get's a +2 every three levels or something like that (not in front of me at the moment) and end up with a +12 or +14 total (or again something close to that)

[Killer Cyborg]

As mentioned before, the Paratrooper is a US Army Airborne, US Army Ranger, US Navy SEALS and US Marine Corps "rolled up into one lethal package" and they just use the name "Paratrooper" for simplicity sake.

As mentioned before, none of the above soldiers are impervious to fear/horror.

They are in Mercenary Adventures, pg 30.

Don't have that one.
Does the OCC mention any super-powers or anything special like that?

I'm assuming no, since nobody's brought it up yet.

Who trains these paratroopers, anyway?

[Killer Cyborg]

Yes it is, but it seems to be a point you want to make - someone who fails their save is going to get attacked no matter what.

Not "no matter what," just "often."

Your argument for "realistically" is "the rules don't say so."

I know what the rules say. Your interpretation and mine are rather varied to say the least. You seem to want everyone that fails their save to either run away screaming or curl up into a ball

Not everyone, no. Just the characters who would react that way.
Which would be a lot of them.
It's not in the rules, it's in the role-playing.

Or are they just munchy because somebody thought it would be kewl?

"Kewl" powers and abilities? I know you have read Rifts Ultimate. How many OCC's have had an ability added that wasn't there before? Like it or not, it's what Rifts has become.

I don't mind the stuff in RUE as far as I remember.
Why, is there a power in there that you think is comparable to complete immunity to horror factor?

Extensive training shouldn't be invalid vs taking drugs to become a Juicer or getting bionic reconstruction

How do you figure?

[Dog_O_War]

More real. There actually ARE paratroopers in real life, and the training of fictional paratroopers is going to be very similar.

/facepalm.
Read the OCC description. "Paratrooper" is just an operative word.
Like how there are "Juicers" in real life, except they aren't running around doing drugs that make them run at 70mph and play death sports with spiky vibrating balls.

Just look at what they can do; clearly it's fictional given that they are "marksmen" while falling through the sky, bonuses to save versus psionics, and extra mega-damage due to their training (if you were already MD). None of that screams "real".

It all screams "crap."
But a surplus of crap doesn't justify other crap.

That is not an answer.
The justification is a technological FIREBALL!

Cthulu is just one of a hundred different supernatural horrors that have spawned from various writers' minds over the years. I lump them all into the same category "scary guys" because there is nothing saying "who is the biggest bad-ass" amongst them. He's no scarier than the Devil, and there are literally hundreds of representations of that guy all over fiction and fantasy, let alone Rifts.

If you think that jumping out of an airplane prepares you to meet the Devil, I think I'm going to have to disagree.
BUT the key difference between the two is that there are plenty of stories where people meet the Devil without going insane from horror.
Not so much with Cthulu.

But as I said, if you don't get it, you don't get it.

And selling your soul for a short-term gain is sane?
What you don't seem to understand is that Cthulhu isn't the baddest guy on the block.

Break that down, then work it backwards.

Getting your soul swallowed is scary. = x

Falling out of the sky while under fire is scary. = y

x + y = z

If x + y = z, then x alone cannot equal z, because it lacks y.
Therefor Falling out of the sky under heavy fire with the additional threat of getting your soul sucked on landing is clearly more scary than only one part of this equation.

This isn't math, so that doesn't actually work.

Yes. And Grunts = Paratroopers

[Killer Cyborg]

More real. There actually ARE paratroopers in real life, and the training of fictional paratroopers is going to be very similar.

/facepalm.
Read the OCC description. "Paratrooper" is just an operative word.

Uh-huh.
And yet for some reason, YOU kept bringing up the fact that they jump out of airplanes as if it made them super-special.
I can't read the full description because I don't have that book.
From all I've heard, they're normal humans with special training.
Just like the Marines, Army Rangers, SEALs, blah, blah, blah which is all stuff that we have in the real world, and none of them are impervious to fear.
If you're hung up on the word "paratrooper," I'll rephrase:
There actually ARE specially trained soldiers in real life, and the training of the fictional paratroopers is going to be very similar.

Just look at what they can do; clearly it's fictional given that they are "marksmen" while falling through the sky, bonuses to save versus psionics, and extra mega-damage due to their training (if you were already MD). None of that screams "real".

It all screams "crap."
But a surplus of crap doesn't justify other crap.

That is not an answer.[/quote]

Of course not.
There wasn't a question.

The justification is a technological FIREBALL!

Have you EVER said that to me and NOT had me respond with some form of "That's a load of crap"...?
If so, don't expect it to happen again.

If you think that jumping out of an airplane prepares you to meet the Devil, I think I'm going to have to disagree.
BUT the key difference between the two is that there are plenty of stories where people meet the Devil without going insane from horror.
Not so much with Cthulu.
But as I said, if you don't get it, you don't get it.

And selling your soul for a short-term gain is sane?

Cthulu makes people go "gibbering madman pulling out his own hair" insane, not "crazy low prices" insane.
There's a significant difference.

What you don't seem to understand is that Cthulhu isn't the baddest guy on the block.

I never said he was.
If you think you know who the baddest boy on the block is, use yours instead in the same scenario.
Point being, it's stupid to claim that special training and jumping out of airplanes would make you completely impervious to fear.

This isn't math, so that doesn't actually work.

Yes. And Grunts = Paratroopers

Again, never said that.
But they regularly encounter supernatural forces and terrifying situations, and they're trained by a nation that is dedicated to destroying supernatural evil, and so would likely include some sort of training to deal with fear.
And they don't have ANY bonus to save vs Horror.
Even Shifters who have made pacts with Cthulu-type critters (or the Devil, or Regis Philbin, or whomever you think is the most terrifying evil badboy), and actually encounter creatures with horror factors on a regular basis, only get a +10 to save vs. horror maximum.

But yeah, sure.... an extra week or more in boot camp will make you completely impervious.

[Damian Magecraft]

This isn't math, so that doesn't actually work.

Yes. And Grunts = Paratroopers

Again, never said that.
But they regularly encounter supernatural forces and terrifying situations, and they're trained by a nation that is dedicated to destroying supernatural evil, and so would likely include some sort of training to deal with fear.
And they don't have ANY bonus to save vs Horror.
Even Shifters who have made pacts with Cthulu-type critters (or the Devil, or Regis Philbin, or whomever you think is the most terrifying evil badboy), and actually encounter creatures with horror factors on a regular basis, only get a +10 to save vs. horror maximum.

But yeah, sure.... an extra week or more in boot camp will make you completely impervious.

I agree with this statement.

[Goliath Strongarm]

OK, I have a reputation as a cold-hearted, cruel, merciless, TPK GM...

And even I say that if the feature is IMMUNE to HF, then point blank, it's IMMUNE. No rolls, no room for failure, nada. IMMUNE.

Because that also helps them from realizing just how bad a thing they face. If they want to cry and run away... make them justify it!

Also, you're taking away the things that "balance" the class. It's like telling the wizard that "oh yeah, your magic is only going to work when I decide". It just isn't right, nor is it the way things are meant to be.

Besides, if the GM is poor enough that they can't work around an immunity to HF, then I'd consider looking for another GM.

Side note- immune to HF is NOT immune to fear. Immune to fear is NOT immune to HF. Remember, some things have HFs not because of "scary" but because of being fugly.
And if you wanna pull teh divine in, there is AWE factor. Same basic thing, but different enough, imo, to still make them roll.

[Dog_O_War]

More real. There actually ARE paratroopers in real life, and the training of fictional paratroopers is going to be very similar.

/facepalm.
Read the OCC description. "Paratrooper" is just an operative word.

Uh-huh.
And yet for some reason, YOU kept bringing up the fact that they jump out of airplanes as if it made them super-special.

That's the short version of it.
The long version is they are doing it with an SDC cloth that is destroyed in a hit by nearly any fire, making it a long drop to a quick death most of the time. With only personal weapons to defend themselves; no tanks and support. No magic either.

I can't read the full description because I don't have that book.

My bad. I only read the post where you stated that after this one.
Suffice it to say that they are "super-training soldiers".

From all I've heard, they're normal humans with special training.

No. They are a plethora of races with super-special training. Nothing in the CS or any other high-profile nations' army/navy/spec-ops compares.

If you're hung up on the word "paratrooper," I'll rephrase:
There actually ARE specially trained soldiers in real life, and the training of the fictional paratroopers is going to be very similar.

I doubt it. I really doubt that there are soldiers out there capable of lifting cars, firing the heaviest of MGs one-handed, repelling psychic attacks, attacking with their extra alien limbs, etc... because the OCC itself is not limited to "human", nor are there real-life psychics out there for there to be some kind of psionic-defence training to be had.

The justification is a technological FIREBALL!

Have you EVER said that to me and NOT had me respond with some form of "That's a load of crap"...?
If so, don't expect it to happen again.

You're calling it a load of crap, yet you're using it (FIREBALL!) to justify why it should affect this particular OCC. That in of itself means your argument is "crap".

Cthulu makes people go "gibbering madman pulling out his own hair" insane, not "crazy low prices" insane.
There's a significant difference.

Yes there is. One means you're insane for a very short period of time (the rest of your life - Cthulhu), the other means you're insane for eternity (as damnation is eternal, and the insanity started when you were living). He still seems like a push-over as far as big evils go.

What you don't seem to understand is that Cthulhu isn't the baddest guy on the block.

I never said he was.
If you think you know who the baddest boy on the block is, use yours instead in the same scenario.
Point being, it's stupid to claim that special training and jumping out of airplanes would make you completely impervious to fear.

It's also stupid to say that, "that's impossible, it doesn't make sense!" when talking about a fantasy game.

Or to put your argument in another context;
"Psychics I can believe. But martial-artists who specialize in using technological beams of light as swords? C'mon; that's stupid".

This isn't math, so that doesn't actually work.

Yes. And Grunts = Paratroopers

Again, never said that.

Yeah, you did. Not in those exact words, but to quote you,

Though being in a world full of supernatural threats in a military that more than likely fights them on a regular basis, then asks you to jump out of planes in personal armour to combat them would prepare a person.

No, it wouldn't.
If it DID, then Grunts would have the same ability. A giant critter about to swallow your soul is a giant critter about to swallow your soul, and it's not significantly scarier if you jumped out of an airplane first.

Here you are saying that grunts, who (I might add) have the backing of an entire army, complete with tanks, hordes of soldiers, and air-support, should receive the same bonus because they "fight the same thing".

Honestly I would feel "pretty brave" if I were fighting anyone when I had 40 of my friends armed to the teeth, with tanks and the like behind me.

But they regularly encounter supernatural forces and terrifying situations, and they're trained by a nation that is dedicated to destroying supernatural evil,

Generi-grunts aren't. We aren't talking specific factions here. I mean, I'd figure that a German infantryman would be a little more hardened than a CS grunt, but no nations are being specified.

and so would likely include some sort of training to deal with fear.
And they don't have ANY bonus to save vs Horror.

So? They're grunts, not super-soldiers.

Even Shifters who have made pacts with Cthulu-type critters (or the Devil, or Regis Philbin, or whomever you think is the most terrifying evil badboy), and actually encounter creatures with horror factors on a regular basis, only get a +10 to save vs. horror maximum.

Yes, the guy with magic powers, but no actual regimented training for fighting scary crap isn't immune. Makes sense. He's using diplomacy most of the time, and not actually fighting stuff out to kill him - because he makes pacts with that stuff so he doesn't need to fight.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Again, at the end of the day I really don't see where this is a big deal. It's not a game changing ability - we've established a character can fear things, but not be affected by it to the point that their performance suffers. If a GM was banking on making character's scared because of a stat block for HF then he's doing it wrong IMHO.

We also only have two classes in all of Rifts with this "Impervious to Horror Factor" ability, and the ability fits each OCC. KC asks if there is an OCC ability in RUE that compares and I say all them compare. They fit the OCC it was designed for, same as we have here. It's not like the CS or NGR have legions of this OCC filling up their combat units.

How do they get this ability? Who knows? How do a lot of the OCC's get their training? I can only speculate that whatever training allows for bonuses to save vs HF in the first place is ramped up to the Nth degree for the Paratrooper.

[Killer Cyborg]

And yet for some reason, YOU kept bringing up the fact that they jump out of airplanes as if it made them super-special.

That's the short version of it.
The long version is they are doing it with an SDC cloth that is destroyed in a hit by nearly any fire, making it a long drop to a quick death most of the time. With only personal weapons to defend themselves; no tanks and support. No magic either.

Just like paratroopers in the real world have ended up doing since they were first used.
Only they didn't have MDC body armor to reduce the impact if they hit the ground.

Suffice it to say that they are "super-training soldiers".

And I don't buy it. Not unless maybe they go into a heck of a lot of explanation why these particular "super training soldiers" would be significantly better than any other special forces type soldiers throughout history.

From all I've heard, they're normal humans with special training.

No. They are a plethora of races with super-special training. Nothing in the CS or any other high-profile nations' army/navy/spec-ops compares.

What races?
Why not?

If you're hung up on the word "paratrooper," I'll rephrase:
There actually ARE specially trained soldiers in real life, and the training of the fictional paratroopers is going to be very similar.

I doubt it. I really doubt that there are soldiers out there capable of lifting cars, firing the heaviest of MGs one-handed, repelling psychic attacks, attacking with their extra alien limbs, etc... because the OCC itself is not limited to "human", nor are there real-life psychics out there for there to be some kind of psionic-defence training to be had.

"Not limited to human" is different from "not human."
Are there human paratroopers that are immune to fear? If yes, then it doesn't matter if there are other races with the OCC, because it's not the race that matters, it's the "training."
Horror Factor isn't psionic.

The justification is a technological FIREBALL!

Have you EVER said that to me and NOT had me respond with some form of "That's a load of crap"...?
If so, don't expect it to happen again.

You're calling it a load of crap, yet you're using it (FIREBALL!) to justify why it should affect this particular OCC. That in of itself means your argument is "crap".[/quote]

I'm not using "fireball" for anything; that's your nonsense. Don't project it onto me.

Cthulu makes people go "gibbering madman pulling out his own hair" insane, not "crazy low prices" insane.
There's a significant difference.

Yes there is. One means you're insane for a very short period of time (the rest of your life - Cthulhu), the other means you're insane for eternity (as damnation is eternal, and the insanity started when you were living). He still seems like a push-over as far as big evils go.

Hm. Sorry; didn't know that we could just make up new powers for whomever we were talking about.
That, or I missed all the parts of the Bible that talks about the devil making people insane.

(really, though, why are we still talking about this part?)

If you think you know who the baddest boy on the block is, use yours instead in the same scenario.
Point being, it's stupid to claim that special training and jumping out of airplanes would make you completely impervious to fear.

It's also stupid to say that, "that's impossible, it doesn't make sense!" when talking about a fantasy game.

It's only stupid to say that kind of thing when you're talking about specific elements of the fantasy setting.
All fantasy is a "what if..." scenario, and as long as whatever "impossible" or "nonsensical" elements are part of the "What If" equation, then it's all fair game.
Rifts is a "What if there was magic" setting (along with a few other What Ifs); that's the premise of the game.

"What if there was super-training that could make people immune to fear" is NOT part of the premise.
In fact, considering how hard the early books pushed the concept of Modified Men, and ensured that they all had a price to pay, I'd say it goes against the premise of the game.
If training can make people super-human, why bother becoming a Juicer, Crazy, or Borg?
Why not just Train people to be super-fast, super-strong, and MDC?

The answer is because you can't train people to be super-human; that's not part of the premise of the game.
It's not one of the "What Ifs" that make up the game world.

And the key to any What If scenario is that anything not changed by the premise(s) remains the same; otherwise there's no point in the exercise.
If somebody asks, "What if zombies were real, and there was a massive zombie outbreak in your neighborhood?"
You can't answer with, "I'd fly around overhead, zapping them with my eye-lasers until they were all destroyed," because that's introducing new random elements that have nothing to do with the premise of the question.

As much as you like to ***** about fireballs, they're a part of magic, and magic is an inherent part of the Rifts setting.
Training people to be super-human is not.

Or to put your argument in another context;
"Psychics I can believe. But martial-artists who specialize in using technological beams of light as swords? C'mon; that's stupid".

That's not my argument. There's nothing about Rifts setting that precludes martial arts, and they're a common enough in the real world that there's no reason to assume they'd stop existing.
High technology is also part of the setting, one of the What Ifs, so laser swords don't go against anything either.

Here you are saying that grunts, who (I might add) have the backing of an entire army, complete with tanks, hordes of soldiers, and air-support, should receive the same bonus because they "fight the same thing".

No, there I was saying that grunts, who often don't have the backing of an entire army (no tanks, no hordes, no air support), should receive the same bonus.
Because your premise was "Paratroopers do scary stuff, so they should be immune to fear," and that applies to pretty much all soldiers in Rifts Earth, especially those who regularly run or march into the front lines.

Honestly I would feel "pretty brave" if I were fighting anyone when I had 40 of my friends armed to the teeth, with tanks and the like behind me.

Not every Grunt is going to have an entire Platoon with him/her, and to pretend that they would is simply dishonest.

But they regularly encounter supernatural forces and terrifying situations, and they're trained by a nation that is dedicated to destroying supernatural evil,

Generi-grunts aren't. We aren't talking specific factions here. I mean, I'd figure that a German infantryman would be a little more hardened than a CS grunt, but no nations are being specified.

How many Grunt OCCs can you name in Rifts?

and so would likely include some sort of training to deal with fear.
And they don't have ANY bonus to save vs Horror.

So? They're grunts, not super-soldiers.

So you've been claiming that doing scary stuff makes one impervious to fear.
That's been the point of your whole fixation on jumping out of planes.
If you want to switch over to focus on the "super-soldier" thing, that's cool; stop talking about all the scary stuff that Paratroopers do, and start describing how their training is any different from any other soldier's.
(Other than being trained to jump out of airplanes.)
"Every soldier in the Coalition is provided with rigorous, specialized training" (CWC 42)
CS Special Forces are "the elite of the elite," and they're often dispatched individually or in pairs, and are "frequently expected to operate with very little support from the rest of the army.
They're about as well-trained as you can get in Rifts, and their bonus to save vs. Horror Factor is.... zero.

But no, yeah... a bit more training and they'd be completely impervious to HF.
That's reasonable.

Even Shifters who have made pacts with Cthulu-type critters (or the Devil, or Regis Philbin, or whomever you think is the most terrifying evil badboy), and actually encounter creatures with horror factors on a regular basis, only get a +10 to save vs. horror maximum.

Yes, the guy with magic powers, but no actual regimented training for fighting scary crap isn't immune. Makes sense. He's using diplomacy most of the time, and not actually fighting stuff out to kill him - because he makes pacts with that stuff so he doesn't need to fight.

Except for the stuff that tries to possess him or control his mind.
Negotiations with demons aren't exactly free from stress or fear.
And look what you're doing; you're negating your own arguments.
You say that it's reasonable for Paratroopers to have this immunity because they do scary things, even though Shifters who do much scarier things aren't immune.
Now you're saying that it's reasonable for Paratroopers to have this immunity because they have "regimented training for fighting scary crap"... just like all the CS OCCs have regimented training for fighting scary crap.
If you want to try to justify this unique ability, try to find something unique about the OCC.
If you can't, maybe it's time to just give up, and admit that the ability makes no real sense, but that you like it anyway.
It's something that a lot of people here do (maybe even all of us, at some point or another), so there's no real shame in admitting it.

[Killer Cyborg]

Again, at the end of the day I really don't see where this is a big deal. It's not a game changing ability

It doesn't have to change the game in order to not make sense.
If there was a new CS Super Soldier OCC, where they had specialized training that allowed them to crap live pigeons, THAT wouldn't change the game.
But it sure as hell wouldn't make any sense.

We also only have two classes in all of Rifts with this "Impervious to Horror Factor" ability, and the ability fits each OCC.

I don't know about the other one, but I've seen NOTHING to indicate that it fits the Paratrooper OCC.
Ooh! They do scary stuff!
But that doesn't make anybody impervious to HF.
OOooh! They have special training!
But that doesn't make anybody impervious to HF, and usually doesn't even give them any bonus at all.

So why would that power be a better fit for this OCC than for any other OCC that does scary stuff and has special training?

How do they get this ability? Who knows? How do a lot of the OCC's get their training? I can only speculate that whatever training allows for bonuses to save vs HF in the first place is ramped up to the Nth degree for the Paratrooper.

If it could be done, it would be done.
The CS would give this training to all their special forces, and anybody else they could afford to train.
But it's not done. Anywhere.
Except in this one OCC where the writer thought it'd be kewl.

One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong.

[Dustin Fireblade]

It doesn't have to change the game in order to not make sense.

"It's Rifts, it doesn't have to make sense"

So why would that power be a better fit for this OCC than for any other OCC that does scary stuff and has special training?

Probably because other OCC's already have something else going for them? From a Gunslinger's skills with pistols to the Russian Shocktrooper Borg, the combat OCC's of Rifts Earth generally have something unique about them. This ability is one of the things that sets them apart.

If it could be done, it would be done.
The CS would give this training to all their special forces, and anybody else they could afford to train.
But it's not done. Anywhere.

Since we now have the OCC with this ability, obviously someone has done it on Rifts Earth. Take your pick - maybe it really is a secret CS program that is being tested. Or it's a secret Free Quebec program to compensate for their lack of psychics. Maybe it was started in Whykin since they constantly battle the supernatural. Or it's a new program created by a True Atlantean clan to compensate for lack of Undead Slayers.

No we don't know the specifics on the how of the training, anymore than we do what really goes into training a robot pilot. My speculation was already mentioned: whatever training is given to allow an OCC a specific bonus to save vs HF is ramped up and expanded for the Paratrooper.


KC you mentioned this to Dog, but I'll also respond - Yes I do like the ability and the OCC. Does it make sense? I can only say that I at least understand it because I have personally seen people unafraid in a number of situations.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Well, I'll provide some information. This is mostly for Killer Cyborg who doesn't have the book. For note, I'm not taking sides, I'm merely providing some of the facts.

1: Paratroopers are supposed be "Airborne, Navy SEALS, Army Rangers, and Marines "all rolled into one." Apparently they're not just highly trained, they're better then them all combined ... or something. I'm not saying I buy it, but that's the premise.

2: They can operate in water, on land, or in the air equally.

3: There is NOTHING saying that Paratroopers tend to operate alone. They're hired by mercenary companies "as a first assault wave, saboteurs, assassins, or to launch surgical strikes" and can be "utilized as backup troops or rescue teams." Terms like "first assault wave" and "teams" show that they aren't exclusively solo operations, and they can just as easily march in large groups. And, while pictures aren't exactly canon, the only picture for the Paratrooper shows hundreds (I didn't stop to count, but I think it's safe to say at least a hundred from perspective) all together. I mean, they have small dots in the back to show how many (and further away).

4: They're paid well for their efforts, but they're "second only to special forces operatives." While this is in reference to pay, you pay for what you get, no? Special Forces would still be paid better than these guys. I'd have to think that speaks of quality/skill.

5: Attribute Requirements: Same I.Q. and P.S. requirements as CS Special Forces (WB11: CWC). The Paratrooper requires a higher P.E. (by two points), but has no M.E. or P.P. requirement. So, except for those two points of P.E., it's actually much harder to become CS Special Forces.

6: CS Special Forces have better O.C.C. Skills (both have HtH: Commando for note) in number and bonuses, Paratroopers have more Related Skills, and CS Special Forces have 1 more Secondary Skill.

7: The Paratrooper follows the CS Military Specialist (main book) experience point table. That means the Paratrooper actually advances faster, with a lesser experience point table.

8: Paratroopers receive S.D.C. bonuses (M.D.C. bonus if an M.D.C. being), attribute bonuses, combat bonuses, and a few other bonuses (just to show the gap).

9: Nerves of Steel: This is their immunity to the "effects of Horror Factor." This is done through "training, experience, and a "rock-steady disposition." The "rock-steady disposition" part I find particuarly amusing since they don't have any M.E. requirement. Note: This ability also means they can't be tortured through pain alone (other methods are possible).

10: They do have two other abilities, but neither of which I find particularly unbalancing or out of place (in my opinion).

Okay, I've done my best to give a thorough review without being too specific (board rules, and I don't think I stepped over the line). As for their Nerves of Steel, I would say they do indeed need to roll. The roll will determine if they're scared or not. If they fail they're scared, but they'd still keep their wits about them. I'd include the roll for role-playing purposes (even if you keep your cool you should be thinking/playing like THIS IS SCARY!). Mind you, this is what I'm saying "by the rules." If someone threw out the rule that is their call, but by the spirit of the rule I would indeed still require a roll.

If I had to try and justify the training? It mentions "freaking out is not acceptable behaviour." I'm guessing the logic behind it is that they're put in controlled situations that are darn scary, then if the Paratrooper reacts badly (freezes up) he gets the ever loving snot beat out of him. Pick him up, then make him do it again. Have him stand toe to toe with a supernatural being (one that is probably restrained or controlled in some other way to be 90% harmless) and get them used to the aura. If the Paratrooper freaks out, a commander or someone else will beat the ever loving crap out of him. Pick him up, and make him face it again. Repeat training until the character washes out of the program, dies, or finally learns not to freak out no matter how scared he is. This is the only way it can also involve training. Otherwise it would be a particular mind set like these people who joined just aren't scared of anything, like some fluke of nature where they just don't know fear (but then it wouldn't require training and experience).

Now, if that training could work should it be possible for other groups to repeat it? Yes. I'm not going to argue that fact at all. But I think that is the concept they were going for.

On a related note, the Magebane also has a similar impervious to the effects of Horror Factor ability. Theirs is a result of having "seen the depths of evil, wickedness and depravity." Again, I don't agree with this concept. In Palladium I'm sure plenty of people have seen that. With that said, I can almost accept it more with the Magebane. For one, some of their powers and training is gained by turning their P.P.E. inward. Second, they're mentioned as a "small cult of zealots." I actually view this one almost an insanity than an actual power. Reading the cult and zealot part makes me think of this guys who have this blind faith that nothing can harm them and/or they serve a higher power/purpose that transcends this plane. It's that blind faith that, in many ways, makes them stupid. This is not an insult, but in the sense that they're not smart enough to realize that there is something to be scared of.

Anyways, I mostly wanted to help provide some information from the books since one person in the conversation doesn't have it. Again, I did my best to provide the useful information without actually breaking the rules. I hope some of that is useful. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[The Beast]

Personally the only things I think that should have an immunity from HF are robots and the Old Ones....

[Killer Cyborg]

It doesn't have to change the game in order to not make sense.

"It's Rifts, it doesn't have to make sense"

That phrase is only really true if you're putting Rifts into some kind of Special Olympics for RPGs, where you're using a sliding scale with greatly lowered expectations compared to "real" games.
And I'm not doing that.
I view Rifts as a pretty solid (if somewhat out-of-date) game, so I'm not condescendingly treating it like it deserves my pity. I treat it like I would any other game, and I hold it to the same standards.
Just because it's Rifts doesn't mean that it should be stupid.
IN fact, I'd rather hope the opposite.

So why would that power be a better fit for this OCC than for any other OCC that does scary stuff and has special training?

Probably because other OCC's already have something else going for them? From a Gunslinger's skills with pistols to the Russian Shocktrooper Borg, the combat OCC's of Rifts Earth generally have something unique about them. This ability is one of the things that sets them apart.

a) Don't get me stared on the Gunslinger's skills with pistols, because that's also a load of crap.
b) Man, I don't even know where to start here.
I guess with the fact that "everybody gets something special" is really bad simulation, because sometimes people just aren't as special as they'd like. Also, because all the special forces in the real world are pretty much on the same level, with more or less the same training. Because there's a limit to what training can do.
Then, of course, there's the fact that even going with the "everybody's special" notion, each OCC's specialness should still make sense.
Again, crapping live pigeons would make a CS Super Soldier OCC pretty unique, but it still wouldn't make a lick of sense.

If it could be done, it would be done.
The CS would give this training to all their special forces, and anybody else they could afford to train.
But it's not done. Anywhere.

Since we now have the OCC with this ability, obviously someone has done it on Rifts Earth.

Circular logic.
We're discussing whether or not the OCC should have that ability, not whether or not it does.
Just because somebody wrote something doesn't mean that they should have.

Take your pick - maybe it really is a secret CS program that is being tested. Or it's a secret Free Quebec program to compensate for their lack of psychics. Maybe it was started in Whykin since they constantly battle the supernatural. Or it's a new program created by a True Atlantean clan to compensate for lack of Undead Slayers.

Nope, sorry. I'm not going to do the writer's work for him. If somebody wants to come up with a kewl new power, then the burden is on THEM to justify it and explain how it happens.
That's the sugar that makes the medicine go down.
If all you're doing is tossing out idea, with no explanation of how the hell they could be plausible, you're not a good writer.
What makes Rifts a good setting is NOT the Kewl powers; it's the thought that has been put into the setting and the back story.
SO when people put stuff in that has no thought and no back story, it doesn't fit.
It makes the game worse by significantly lowering the standard.

KC you mentioned this to Dog, but I'll also respond - Yes I do like the ability and the OCC. Does it make sense? I can only say that I at least understand it because I have personally seen people unafraid in a number of situations.

Thank you for responding.

I've seen people survive severe motorcycle accidents.
This does not mean that anybody out there could be impervious to motorcycle accidents.
And yes, I've seen people who were unafraid in a number of bad situations (or, at least, they didn't let their fear control them, which nets out the same in this discussion).
But that doesn't mean that any of these people is impervious to fear.
Just because some people do something sometimes does not mean that there is anybody who can do it all the time.

[Dustin Fireblade]

If all you're doing is tossing out idea, with no explanation of how the hell they could be plausible, you're not a good writer.

Kevin Siembieda, Carmen Bellaire and Patrick Nowak are all the ones listed specifically for the Paratrooper as writers/designers.

What makes Rifts a good setting is NOT the Kewl powers; it's the thought that has been put into the setting and the back story.

We are talking about Palladium Books Rifts game right? I'm not so sure about that "thought put into the setting and back story" part. But that's for another thread I suppose.

I agree with you in that the authors could have done a Hell of a lot better job, but if I'm a player in someone's game, I can accept that the Paratrooper has what it has because of "training, experience, and a rock-steady disposition."

(As a GM, I don't use the Rifts setting as presented in the books anymore.)

[Dog_O_War]

*stuff*

Okay, forgoing the quote-for-quote this could be, I'll attempt to reason with you in another manner.



When you roll for horror factor against anything, you roll only once, and on a failed roll everything from the toughest grunt to even a little girl with no combat training only loses one attack, cannot defend themselves from the first attack that horror makes, and has a zeroed-out initiative for that one round.


Now examining this, you'll note that the penalty is worse the less combat training you have; if you have no hand-to-hand then you lose all your attacks (but not actions).
If you have basic though, then you are denied only one quarter your attacks (assuming you don't have boxing or other attacks). The more combat training you have it seems, the less stunned you actually are in the grand scheme of things.

So why then would it not make sense that a soldier whose had super-training not be stunned by a horrific presence at all?

[Killer Cyborg]

When you roll for horror factor against anything, you roll only once, and on a failed roll everything from the toughest grunt to even a little girl with no combat training only loses one attack, cannot defend themselves from the first attack that horror makes, and has a zeroed-out initiative for that one round.


Now examining this, you'll note that the penalty is worse the less combat training you have; if you have no hand-to-hand then you lose all your attacks (but not actions).
If you have basic though, then you are denied only one quarter your attacks (assuming you don't have boxing or other attacks). The more combat training you have it seems, the less stunned you actually are in the grand scheme of things.

All logical and well thought-out.
It nets out to people with more combat training hesitating less, even though it's still one attack.
Good thought.

So why then would it not make sense that a soldier whose had super-training not be stunned by a horrific presence at all?

Because there are already soldiers with "super-training" who don't have any bonus vs horror (other than having more attacks), and that includes a number of OCCs where training specifically against HF would be expected if it were possible.
There is a fairly established ceiling in this setting as to what training can accomplish, and immunity to horror factor is far, far, far above that ceiling.

It's similar to the other ceilings that exist in the game. Take lasers, for example.
The best rifle-sized or smaller lasers have a range of 4000'. That's as far as laser technology can take us in this world, barring some kind of wondrous scientific breakthrough that changes establishes a new ceiling, and consequently changes the face of the game world. The damage limitations of lasers are similarly established.
If suddenly Wilk's put out a laser pistol that could shoot accurately for 2 miles, and inflicted 1d4x100 MD, I'd be crying foul on that one, because it breaks established rules for the setting.
And in good writing, whether it's movies, novels, or RPGs, you never break the established rules for the setting without a very good explanation.

For example, there's the Stallone movie Daylight.
[spoilers]Sly and others are trapped in a tunnel that runs under a river; both ends are blocked off. Early on in the movie, somebody asks, "Can't they just swim out?" and somebody else gives all the reasons why that wouldn't work.
At the end of the movie, Stallone and one other character survive by just swimming to the surface. No explanation is made for how they could have bypassed the problems listed before; he just does it.[/spoiler]
The movie breaks its own rule.
And it's crappy writing.

Then there's the TV show Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Specifically, Season 6.

Spoiler:

Throughout the series, there is an unwritten, unspoke rule that guns are ineffective in this setting. Virtually nobody uses them, and when they DO, they can't seem to shoot anybody. Even the military uses high-tech tasers and other gadgets instead of bullets. This is pretty consistent throughout the series. People use crossbows, knives, swords, claws, and at one point even a rocket launcher. But guns just don't seem to work well in this universe.
It's fairly unrealistic in that sense, but because the setting is consistent, suspension of disbelief is able to be maintained without much effort; the viewer just accepts that guns just don't work well in this setting.
Then one day a normal human schmuck with a normal pistol shoots Buffy and nearly kills her (she's only saved by magic).
While that's actually more realistic than the standard for the setting, it's crappy writing because it ignores the rules of the setting. If it's that easy, if you can just walk up and shoot somebody as powerful as The Slayer and expect to kill her, why the hell hasn't anybody ever done it before in the 6 years that she's been terrorizing the monsters of Sunnydale? Why didn't The Mayor, who had the entire police force at his disposal, get one of his guys to just kill her "in self defense?" Why the hell did all those other people MISS with their guns, no matter how many bullets they used, yet Warren was able to nail her in just a couple of shots?

The event makes no sense in the context of the established setting.

In the TV show Red Dwarf,

Spoiler:

The Holly Hop Drive is a time machine, but the joke is that it won't help them get back to Earth because it only moves people through time, not space.
Next season, though, they use the Holly Hop Drive to travel to Earth for the Kennedy assassination.
Funny episode, but the fans were pissed because it broke the established rules of the setting.
Also, the device apparently lost that function immediately after that episode, because despite the fact that the entire plot revolves around the crew trying to return to Earth, they never use the Hop Drive to do so.

Of course, Red Dwarf is a comedy series, but the writers didn't take it as seriously as they should have. They frequently broke their own rules, and the series suffered from it.

So, long story short, the Paratroopers' special ability breaks the established rules of the Megaverse.

[Killer Cyborg]

If all you're doing is tossing out idea, with no explanation of how the hell they could be plausible, you're not a good writer.

Kevin Siembieda, Carmen Bellaire and Patrick Nowak are all the ones listed specifically for the Paratrooper as writers/designers.

And whichever one of them came up with that power was being a bad writer.
This doesn't mean that they've incapable of being good writers, just that at least that one time, they were not.

What makes Rifts a good setting is NOT the Kewl powers; it's the thought that has been put into the setting and the back story.

We are talking about Palladium Books Rifts game right? I'm not so sure about that "thought put into the setting and back story" part. But that's for another thread I suppose.

The later books have a lot less thought and a lot more superficial shiny stuff than the early books.
The Rifts setting as presented in the original book, though, was pretty tight, and pretty well thought-out.

I agree with you in that the authors could have done a Hell of a lot better job, but if I'm a player in someone's game, I can accept that the Paratrooper has what it has because of "training, experience, and a rock-steady disposition."

Same here. Just because it's stupid doesn't mean that I'm going to refuse to play using that rule, IF that's the way the GM calls it.
Conversely, the fact that I'm willing to play it that way sometimes doesn't mean that it's not stupid.

(As a GM, I don't use the Rifts setting as presented in the books anymore.)

Hm.
Why not?
And what are the major differences?
(PM if you like, as this isn't part of the overall topic here)

[The Beast]

If all you're doing is tossing out idea, with no explanation of how the hell they could be plausible, you're not a good writer.

Kevin Siembieda, Carmen Bellaire and Patrick Nowak are all the ones listed specifically for the Paratrooper as writers/designers.

And whichever one of them came up with that power was being a bad writer.
This doesn't mean that they've incapable of being good writers, just that at least that one time, they were not.

Seconded.

[Kovoston]

If you can't scare the character there is always insanity...

[Goliath Strongarm]

Everyone keeps asking what training makes this character so special.. grab a pencil and write the following blurb under the class description...

"During training, these soldiers are given extended exposure to subliminal messaging that removes their ability to be afraid. This allows them to face the scariest, creepiest, ugliest things in the Megaverse and not even flinch. It also, unfortunately, makes them think that they are tougher than they are, causing them to not know when to retreat."

There. Problem solved. Have a nice day!

[Jorel]

Anyone care to guess why ISS Peacekeepers get such good bonuses to save vs HF?

Clockwork Orange style training, once you see endless video streams of that sort of stuff, you become numb.

Basically what the post above this one is saying.

[csbioborg]

I think it was a poorly though out theme of merc ops that several of the OCCs were immune to horror
What's the substantive difference in a paratrooper and a CS Commado?
They are going to get roughly the same training. Everything Killer Cyborg said is spot on. A paratrooper should not have to save vs horror when a guy pulls a knife on him where as your average civilian should. However, when the Outer Gods show up why is this guy immune. Any human being that hasn't been lobotomized in some fashion is going to get scared if you up the antee enough.

[The Beast]

I think it was a poorly though out theme of merc ops that several of the OCCs were immune to horror
What's the substantive difference in a paratrooper and a CS Commado?
They are going to get roughly the same training. Everything Killer Cyborg said is spot on. A paratrooper should not have to save vs horror when a guy pulls a knife on him where as your average civilian should. However, when the Outer Gods show up why is this guy immune. Any human being that hasn't been lobotomized in some fashion is going to get scared if you up the antee enough.

Wait a sec, there are several OCCs in that book with immunity to HF?

[Erinoth]

horror factor was never a major issue in any group i played in. it is a small mechanic used to simulate fear for ROLLplayers. we have never really enforced the mechanic in any system that it was in (the concept is in several different systems).

[Cinos]

I think it was a poorly though out theme of merc ops that several of the OCCs were immune to horror
What's the substantive difference in a paratrooper and a CS Commado?
They are going to get roughly the same training. Everything Killer Cyborg said is spot on. A paratrooper should not have to save vs horror when a guy pulls a knife on him where as your average civilian should. However, when the Outer Gods show up why is this guy immune. Any human being that hasn't been lobotomized in some fashion is going to get scared if you up the antee enough.

Well this can be looked at in reverse; Should a Dragon have to Roll to Save vs HF vs an Imp. This entire thread could be fixed by adding a sentence to HF rules being; If the source of the Horror Factor is unimportant to the character, it is ignored. Soldiers now get to ignore normal combat gun fire, summoners get to ignore their minions, and John Deer still wets himself when someone tries to mug him and paratroopers still think twice about doing an air drop over Cthulu.


(Note; My spell checker doesn't know Cthulu! UNACCEPTABLE!)