Cost for an E-Clip recharging station

[Akashic Soldier]

E-Clip recharging stations and their revenue are listed in Rifts Black Market. The stations listed in Merc Ops and for Cyborgs are ill-suited to commercial use. They are functional but not what most people use unless theyre on the field. The commercial costs are in the high millions but can be big profit depending on location.

[Shorty Lickens]

E-Clip recharging stations and their revenue are listed in Rifts Black Market. The stations listed in Merc Ops and for Cyborgs are ill-suited to commercial use. They are functional but not what most people use unless theyre on the field. The commercial costs are in the high millions but can be big profit depending on location.

You've also gotta think about availability. This isnt Star Trek and you actually have to go digging for rare or important items.
The main reason I love shadowrun is they have a whole system set up for item availability.

[Damian Magecraft]

E-Clip recharging stations and their revenue are listed in Rifts Black Market. The stations listed in Merc Ops and for Cyborgs are ill-suited to commercial use. They are functional but not what most people use unless theyre on the field. The commercial costs are in the high millions but can be big profit depending on location.

You've also gotta think about availability. This isnt Star Trek and you actually have to go digging for rare or important items.
The main reason I love shadowrun is they have a whole system set up for item availability.

Has the hobby really gotten to the point that GMs cannot be bothered to decide rarity/availability of items on their own? the books/games have to do every thing for them?

[Galroth]

E-Clip recharging stations and their revenue are listed in Rifts Black Market. The stations listed in Merc Ops and for Cyborgs are ill-suited to commercial use. They are functional but not what most people use unless theyre on the field. The commercial costs are in the high millions but can be big profit depending on location.

You've also gotta think about availability. This isnt Star Trek and you actually have to go digging for rare or important items.
The main reason I love shadowrun is they have a whole system set up for item availability.

Has the hobby really gotten to the point that GMs cannot be bothered to decide rarity/availability of items on their own? the books/games have to do every thing for them?

Meh, it does help avoid the accusations of withholding items to be keep the players down. If item availability is charted for all to see like Shadowrun or Cyberpunk it's easier to feel like the GM isn't singling out your character for the endless game of 'This shop doesn't have that item". So not necessary for playing, but helpful.

[Damian Magecraft]

E-Clip recharging stations and their revenue are listed in Rifts Black Market. The stations listed in Merc Ops and for Cyborgs are ill-suited to commercial use. They are functional but not what most people use unless theyre on the field. The commercial costs are in the high millions but can be big profit depending on location.

You've also gotta think about availability. This isnt Star Trek and you actually have to go digging for rare or important items.
The main reason I love shadowrun is they have a whole system set up for item availability.

Has the hobby really gotten to the point that GMs cannot be bothered to decide rarity/availability of items on their own? the books/games have to do every thing for them?

Meh, it does help avoid the accusations of withholding items to be keep the players down. If item availability is charted for all to see like Shadowrun or Cyberpunk it's easier to feel like the GM isn't singling out your character for the endless game of 'This shop doesn't have that item". So not necessary for playing, but helpful.

As GM it is my responsibility to ensure that fun is had by all players not just one.
by having the books restrict/determine availability the control of those items is removed from the GMs hands and placed in the players ("the book says I can get the doohickey of instant death here at this price so you have to let me have it!").
Just another example of the divide in game philosophies if you ask me.

[Damian Magecraft]

and yes, I think an availability system would fix the issue entirely, and would stop many arguments and would allow players to expect reasonable compensation. I mean, a GM will allow a merchant in a town, but players with money? Ha. they can't even afford The Book prices for repairs!
.. they'll have to run around in plastic man Cause that's all the money the gm Will allow!

Bad GMing and Bad players cannot be "fixed" through mechanics...
I have been Accused of being a "scrooge GM" before...
The players shut up however when they realized that the Barter/haggle skill existed for a reason.

[Noon]

This is the kind of crap I get upset with when the books expect players to be short changed all the time ( this is especially true of the text in Merctown and Splynn Dimensional market, where the market that used to have everything, is now the market of "everything is fake!"

That sounds like you want to spend X amount on a battle (in repairs and recharges) and with your way you want make about fifteen to twenty times X for the battle.

Compared with how much you spend on a battle, how many times that do you want to make from the battle?

You're trying to sound the hard done by here, but if you actually state how many times more you want to gain than you spent during the battle it might make things look a bit different.

[flatline]

and yes, I think an availability system would fix the issue entirely, and would stop many arguments and would allow players to expect reasonable compensation. I mean, a GM will allow a merchant in a town, but players with money? Ha. they can't even afford The Book prices for repairs!
.. they'll have to run around in plastic man Cause that's all the money the gm Will allow!

Bad GMing and Bad players cannot be "fixed" through mechanics...
I have been Accused of being a "scrooge GM" before...
The players shut up however when they realized that the Barter/haggle skill existed for a reason.

Wait, is that the Barter skill that doesn't even exist in RMB and according to RUE is only available to scholars and adventurers?

I recommend ignoring the skill's existence entirely. If you want Barter and Haggling to be part of the game, then role play it.

--flatline

[Akashic Soldier]

The rules for selling, weapon availability, and store/trade security can be found in Rifts: Black Market.

[Damian Magecraft]

and yes, I think an availability system would fix the issue entirely, and would stop many arguments and would allow players to expect reasonable compensation. I mean, a GM will allow a merchant in a town, but players with money? Ha. they can't even afford The Book prices for repairs!
.. they'll have to run around in plastic man Cause that's all the money the gm Will allow!

Bad GMing and Bad players cannot be "fixed" through mechanics...
I have been Accused of being a "scrooge GM" before...
The players shut up however when they realized that the Barter/haggle skill existed for a reason.

Wait, is that the Barter skill that doesn't even exist in RMB and according to RUE is only available to scholars and adventurers?

I recommend ignoring the skill's existence entirely. If you want Barter and Haggling to be part of the game, then role play it.

--flatline

so on the one hand you want rules in place stating what is available when, where, and for how much and what the value of salvage is worth?
But rules that allow the players to alter those are bad?
And you complain that a skill is limited in its availability? (what combat monkey's dont get enough already?)
That is quite the interesting view on how games function...

[flatline]

and yes, I think an availability system would fix the issue entirely, and would stop many arguments and would allow players to expect reasonable compensation. I mean, a GM will allow a merchant in a town, but players with money? Ha. they can't even afford The Book prices for repairs!
.. they'll have to run around in plastic man Cause that's all the money the gm Will allow!

Bad GMing and Bad players cannot be "fixed" through mechanics...
I have been Accused of being a "scrooge GM" before...
The players shut up however when they realized that the Barter/haggle skill existed for a reason.

Wait, is that the Barter skill that doesn't even exist in RMB and according to RUE is only available to scholars and adventurers?

I recommend ignoring the skill's existence entirely. If you want Barter and Haggling to be part of the game, then role play it.

--flatline

so on the one hand you want rules in place stating what is available when, where, and for how much and what the value of salvage is worth?

I suspect you're confusing me with someone else. I believe those things should be entirely up to the discretion of the GM.

But rules that allow the players to alter those are bad?

Absolutely. Skills that replace role playing are, categorically speaking, bad.

And you complain that a skill is limited in its availability? (what combat monkey's dont get enough already?)

I am merely pointing out that a skill can't be critical to playing in the setting when it didn't even exist when the setting was created. Even post-RUE, there are campaigns that do not have scholars and adventurers in the party, yet the game and setting must still be able to function.

--flatline

[Nightmask]

Absolutely. Skills that replace role playing are, categorically speaking, bad.
--flatline

Not necessarily, but some things everyone should be capable of with a skill in it just an example of developing that basic ability rather than treated as 'well if you don't have this skill then you can't do it'. Bartering is clearly something anyone should be able to do no matter what their background or class, they may not be good at it but everyone should be capable of it, but some would instantly act as if you can't do any bartering without the skill if the skill exists even though that's clearly ridiculous.

[Warshield73]

I have always thought the cost of recharging an e-clip was kind of high, however, the power needed to recharge them is in very limited supply and the mechanical ability needed to build a recharger makes it even more so.

I have always viewed the Operator, Body Doc, and Cyber-Doc as the least common type of OCC on Rifts Earth. I have always treated technology as more common on Rifts Earth then the people who can fix and make it.

As for selling things to the Black Market, I agree the percentages are a little low, but it depends on where you are selling it. If you are selling something your spoils of war in Merc Town where there are lots of people that can afford it you can probably get a good price for it. If you are trying to unload a power armor out west where no one can use it or afford it then you will get a lot less because the BM will need to transport it to where the customers are. You also have to consider that if you sell something to the BM they could loose it before they sell it (CS confiscation, monster smash) I mean Rifts Earth is not a safe place to do business.

The thing about economics of Rifts is that while everyone might want what your selling, very few can afford it and many more will try and stop you from selling it. I think the danger of having some of these things is built into the price.

In my version of the setting, E-clips (or smaller/larger cells using the same technology) are used to power just about everything that is too small to have its own reactor.

Edit: Well, not everything. I'm talking about things that consume electric power directly. Lots of things still use liquid fuel where appropriate. End edit.

I also take it a step further by setting the minimum size for a nuclear reactor to be 1 cubic meter which means that power armor and small vehicles can't be nuclear powered. Most PA and vehicles run on cell-packs which give them a day or two of operation between charges but is drastically reduced by flight and firing energy weapons. Obviously, this changes the setting quite a bit.

--flatline

I love this idea. One of the things I dislike about Rifts and to some extent Robotech is how much fuel the vehicles have. Even in Phase World I wish the fuel was more limited so that you could make people scrounge for fuel. Hard to do an "out of gas" scenario when everyone has 5 to 25 years power.

The Macross SB has a good system for this with the fusion plants that require fuel and last 48 hours. Leads to more drama if your players are fleeing danger and they have to run in the opposite direction of the fuel supply. But, given how much people gripe about recharging e-clips I can only imagine how people would respond to this.

[Nightmask]

I have always thought the cost of recharging an e-clip was kind of high, however, the power needed to recharge them is in very limited supply and the mechanical ability needed to build a recharger makes it even more so.

I have always viewed the Operator, Body Doc, and Cyber-Doc as the least common type of OCC on Rifts Earth. I have always treated technology as more common on Rifts Earth then the people who can fix and make it.

That would be contrary to the actual books though, as they're clearly fairly common (and there are way more than just the Operator and Cyber-Doc who can have or are mechanically/electrically inclined, even the Special Forces OCC can become a high-end engineer). Also everywhere you look the power to recharge e-clips is plentiful, as vehicles and power armors with nuclear power supplies are commonplace (or at least they certainly are with the average high-tech PC group). It also doesn't take much mechanical ability to recharge an E-clip given the Armorer can do it.

I love this idea. One of the things I dislike about Rifts and to some extent Robotech is how much fuel the vehicles have. Even in Phase World I wish the fuel was more limited so that you could make people scrounge for fuel. Hard to do an "out of gas" scenario when everyone has 5 to 25 years power.

Okay, so just what it is it about the 'out of gas' scenario that you feel like not being able to inflict it on the PC is a reason to express dislike about it? Particularly when you even feel like it's something that should come up in Phase World which is a super-tech and modern (in general) setting and not being able to find fuel or recharge e-clips would be like saying you shouldn't be able to find gas for your car in a modern urban setting when there isn't any sort of fuel shortage or other reason to justify it. The concept just doesn't fit.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Take the out of gas scenario- you can still damage the cooling system. And anyone who has done 5 seconds of research on nuclear and/or fusion power systems knows that means you shut down. At maybe it was only a leak, and you need to replace coolant- same scenario, slight change.

Or maybe instead of a straight nuke power supply, they are heavy water based.

Or some rare, high output short lived element we haven't yet discovered?

[Nightmask]

Take the out of gas scenario- you can still damage the cooling system. And anyone who has done 5 seconds of research on nuclear and/or fusion power systems knows that means you shut down. At maybe it was only a leak, and you need to replace coolant- same scenario, slight change.

Or maybe instead of a straight nuke power supply, they are heavy water based.

Or some rare, high output short lived element we haven't yet discovered?

Well the point of my question (in case it was missed) was with all the various things that can go wrong and trouble the PC why is this particular scenario (being subject to fuel sources running low and having to scrabble to refuel) seen as being so important that it's something that generates active dislike over it being more difficult or too difficult to contrive in Rifts? There are all sorts of problems to worry about, including such things as running low on ammunition and having trouble managing repairs that not being able to subject a group to running out of fuel seems like a non-issue.

[Warshield73]

Take the out of gas scenario- you can still damage the cooling system. And anyone who has done 5 seconds of research on nuclear and/or fusion power systems knows that means you shut down. At maybe it was only a leak, and you need to replace coolant- same scenario, slight change.

I have done this one several times, especially in Phase World, it just lacks the urgency and predictability of a fuel limit. It also means that when the players need to make a long trip they do not have to make any trade offs in weapons or cargo for fuel the way say a modern jet fighter would have to trade off ordinance for drop tanks.

Or maybe instead of a straight nuke power supply, they are heavy water based.
Or some rare, high output short lived element we haven't yet discovered?

I have considered these and it is one of the reasons I like what Flatline did so much.

That would be contrary to the actual books though, as they're clearly fairly common (and there are way more than just the Operator and Cyber-Doc who can have or are mechanically/electrically inclined, even the Special Forces OCC can become a high-end engineer). Also everywhere you look the power to recharge e-clips is plentiful, as vehicles and power armors with nuclear power supplies are commonplace (or at least they certainly are with the average high-tech PC group). It also doesn't take much mechanical ability to recharge an E-clip given the Armorer can do it.

Actually according to the books people like the PC's, highly skilled with MD weapons, are supposed to be uncommon and this is why traveling operators and doctors are so in demand. As for the rest, your right in a "PC group" they are very common. For your average denizen of Rifts Earth, not so much. As for the skill to recharge an e-clip, before the field armorer skill was introduced in the CS War Campaign I use to say that any one with an energy WP skill could do it so I guess I was not clear. I was talking about the ability to build and maintain an e-clip charger which I do believe would require electrical engineering.

Okay, so just what it is it about the 'out of gas' scenario that you feel like not being able to inflict it on the PC is a reason to express dislike about it?

Why is a story element something you "inflict" on a PC group? It is just one more thing, like ammo, food and water that you can use as a story teller to build the drama. Using your logic that means every weapon should have unlimited ammo and armor should be self repairing so you do not "inflict" repairs on the PC's. Fuel is just more visceral. In a space setting the only thing more important then energy/fuel for your ship is air.

Two Examples:
1) In the first episode of Firefly Reynolds has to sell his stolen Alliance goods to Patience, even though she clearly plans on shooting him again, because he does not have the fuel to get somewhere else. This is a decision that you could not be forced into by simply being out of ammo, it has to be basic but still darn expensive.

2) In the Honor Harrington books starships are fusion powered and require hydrogen to run. Ships must sacrifice part of the internal space for fuel bunkers. The greater the range the less room for other stuff, like missiles and people. Normally ships can operate for months, even a year or more without refueling but in one book she uses a very unorthodox attack plan that burns through the fuel so fast that if the attack plan flops she does not have the fuel to escape.

You can cheat both of these with repairs or something but still not as immediate as fuel and the players can always try to use there skills to jury rig the situation to get out of it.

It makes perfect sense for large vehicles (Deaths Head Transport, Packmaster Carrier) to have years worth of fuel (like a modern aircraft carrier) but single seat fighters and power armors? No way. This point is even made in a few of the books and a Rifter article where it talks about the CS considering reducing fuel levels to 1 to 5 years because of the cost of the fuel for the reactors on something that could be destroyed at anytime.

Particularly when you even feel like it's something that should come up in Phase World which is a super-tech and modern (in general) setting and not being able to find fuel or recharge e-clips would be like saying you shouldn't be able to find gas for your car in a modern urban setting when there isn't any sort of fuel shortage or other reason to justify it. The concept just doesn't fit.

Your right. On Phase World itself or Terra Prime or any other civilized area you should not have problems finding fuel but Phase World is in the Three Galaxies, which is kind of big and according to the books between 1/3 to 1/2 of which are unexplored. The unexplored regions are the ones that should have fuel issues. This is not unlike say West Texas or areas of the Canadian Rockies I have driven in where gas stations can be hours apart even on major roads and many people who do not plan run out in these areas all the time.

[Damian Magecraft]

Take the out of gas scenario- you can still damage the cooling system. And anyone who has done 5 seconds of research on nuclear and/or fusion power systems knows that means you shut down. At maybe it was only a leak, and you need to replace coolant- same scenario, slight change.

Or maybe instead of a straight nuke power supply, they are heavy water based.

Or some rare, high output short lived element we haven't yet discovered?

Well the point of my question (in case it was missed) was with all the various things that can go wrong and trouble the PC why is this particular scenario (being subject to fuel sources running low and having to scrabble to refuel) seen as being so important that it's something that generates active dislike over it being more difficult or too difficult to contrive in Rifts? There are all sorts of problems to worry about, including such things as running low on ammunition and having trouble managing repairs that not being able to subject a group to running out of fuel seems like a non-issue.

and yet a goodly portion of this thread is arguments for taking away the ammunition issue or at least making ammo a non-issue for PCs...

[Warshield73]

and yet a goodly portion of this thread is arguments for taking away the ammunition issue or at least making ammo a non-issue for PCs...

Damian said what I was trying to only way better. Thank you Damian.

[Nightmask]

Take the out of gas scenario- you can still damage the cooling system. And anyone who has done 5 seconds of research on nuclear and/or fusion power systems knows that means you shut down. At maybe it was only a leak, and you need to replace coolant- same scenario, slight change.

I have done this one several times, especially in Phase World, it just lacks the urgency and predictability of a fuel limit. It also means that when the players need to make a long trip they do not have to make any trade offs in weapons or cargo for fuel the way say a modern jet fighter would have to trade off ordinance for drop tanks.

Okay, why do you think there needs to be a sense of urgency or such predictability? Why do you think that's something that's somehow supposed to be an essential aspect of things?

That would be contrary to the actual books though, as they're clearly fairly common (and there are way more than just the Operator and Cyber-Doc who can have or are mechanically/electrically inclined, even the Special Forces OCC can become a high-end engineer). Also everywhere you look the power to recharge e-clips is plentiful, as vehicles and power armors with nuclear power supplies are commonplace (or at least they certainly are with the average high-tech PC group). It also doesn't take much mechanical ability to recharge an E-clip given the Armorer can do it.

Actually according to the books people like the PC's, highly skilled with MD weapons, are supposed to be uncommon and this is why traveling operators and doctors are so in demand. As for the rest, your right in a "PC group" they are very common. For your average denizen of Rifts Earth, not so much. As for the skill to recharge an e-clip, before the field armorer skill was introduced in the CS War Campaign I use to say that any one with an energy WP skill could do it so I guess I was not clear. I was talking about the ability to build and maintain an e-clip charger which I do believe would require electrical engineering.

Which again is a common skill for PC, whether or not it's uncommon or rare outside of the PC group it's something very common to them.

Okay, so just what it is it about the 'out of gas' scenario that you feel like not being able to inflict it on the PC is a reason to express dislike about it?

Why is a story element something you "inflict" on a PC group? It is just one more thing, like ammo, food and water that you can use as a story teller to build the drama. Using your logic that means every weapon should have unlimited ammo and armor should be self repairing so you do not "inflict" repairs on the PC's. Fuel is just more visceral. In a space setting the only thing more important then energy/fuel for your ship is air.

Because the story elements are generally negative things as you rarely see GM doing story elements that gift the PC with anything, it's all about inflicting some sort of limitation or difficulty and ignores the other half of the equation.

Two Examples:
1) In the first episode of Firefly Reynolds has to sell his stolen Alliance goods to Patience, even though she clearly plans on shooting him again, because he does not have the fuel to get somewhere else. This is a decision that you could not be forced into by simply being out of ammo, it has to be basic but still darn expensive.

2) In the Honor Harrington books starships are fusion powered and require hydrogen to run. Ships must sacrifice part of the internal space for fuel bunkers. The greater the range the less room for other stuff, like missiles and people. Normally ships can operate for months, even a year or more without refueling but in one book she uses a very unorthodox attack plan that burns through the fuel so fast that if the attack plan flops she does not have the fuel to escape.

You can cheat both of these with repairs or something but still not as immediate as fuel and the players can always try to use there skills to jury rig the situation to get out of it.

It makes perfect sense for large vehicles (Deaths Head Transport, Packmaster Carrier) to have years worth of fuel (like a modern aircraft carrier) but single seat fighters and power armors? No way. This point is even made in a few of the books and a Rifter article where it talks about the CS considering reducing fuel levels to 1 to 5 years because of the cost of the fuel for the reactors on something that could be destroyed at anytime.

The problem is your definition of 'perfect sense' doesn't work with the actual books, where we know they have power systems good for more than a decade (and in Phase World as good as 50 years, and a few super-advanced races you can find even the cyborgs good for the next 150 years). They have advanced systems and power conversion that just does better, even for small fighter craft and power armors. Given how difficult it is to even find anything like power armor with less than 10 years of life to it clearly what makes sense for Rifts is long life, miniature power systems capable of powering impressive energy systems continuously.

Particularly when you even feel like it's something that should come up in Phase World which is a super-tech and modern (in general) setting and not being able to find fuel or recharge e-clips would be like saying you shouldn't be able to find gas for your car in a modern urban setting when there isn't any sort of fuel shortage or other reason to justify it. The concept just doesn't fit.

Your right. On Phase World itself or Terra Prime or any other civilized area you should not have problems finding fuel but Phase World is in the Three Galaxies, which is kind of big and according to the books between 1/3 to 1/2 of which are unexplored. The unexplored regions are the ones that should have fuel issues. This is not unlike say West Texas or areas of the Canadian Rockies I have driven in where gas stations can be hours apart even on major roads and many people who do not plan run out in these areas all the time.

Except we're talking vehicles and systems that have decades of life to them, so it doesn't matter about those unexplored regions unless you're planning on being in them cut off from refuel for decades, and there aren't many that would be doing that.

[Nightmask]

and yet a goodly portion of this thread is arguments for taking away the ammunition issue or at least making ammo a non-issue for PCs...

Damian said what I was trying to only way better. Thank you Damian.

Uh no, that's complete nonsense. The arguments are how ridiculous it is to try and make recharging e-clips prohibitively expensive to impossible to do, especially to try and make it out that even Operators couldn't do it. Energy isn't ammo either, it's not like rail gun rounds where you have to have physical materials and some means of converting those materials into rounds.

Recharging an e-clip from a power supply is comparable to a mage recharging after a battle at a Ley Line or resting up (or both). The mage's energy supply is limited during a particular battle but his ability to recharge is unlimited, he can do it any time he's not in combat (and sometimes even then if a Ley Line or Nexus is handy). This is no different than the e-clip dependent people having a finite amount of e-clip energy in a battle but it being conditionally unlimited because he can recharge between battles.

So unless one is complaining that 'Oh no the mages can recover PPE between battles and have unlimited ammo and never need to go home to recharge and that's just so wrong!' one has zero reason to be complaining about the tech PC having the ability to easily recharge their e-clips between battle, and if one is complaining about the mages too then you are clearly playing the wrong game system if you have issues with that.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Anyone ever play an the old BattleTech RPG as a merc game before wigot their hands on it? You actually paid for your missiles, all your armor repair, your bullets if you used slug throwers. The perk of energy weapons was them not using ammo you would have to pay to replace...

[Damian Magecraft]

Anyone ever play an the old BattleTech RPG as a merc game before wigot their hands on it? You actually paid for your missiles, all your armor repair, your bullets if you used slug throwers. The perk of energy weapons was them not using ammo you would have to pay to replace...

Except those e-weps were mounted and created a power drain and excessive heat on the techs.
These discussions are about man portable e-weps that require a replaceable power pack.

And Mask no matter how you try to dress it up...
An e-clip is still ammo.
Like a slug throw if you don't have the clip in the gun it won't fire its bolt/bullet.

[Goliath Strongarm]

As I wait to check into my hotel room....

Yes, they were mounted, which was the main difference. My point was more of the actual paying for your ammo and your armor repairs. Keeping track of expenditures like that made players think before just unloading all of their massive damage weapons as quickly as possible.

My unfortunate experience with a lot of GMs that are quick to charge insane prices to recharge eclips and repair armor is that those same GMs don't want to figure out any salvage. How many eclips did those dead mercs have? 1 each? Really? How much sense does that make? "Game balance" vs "fair play"

[Nightmask]

you know back before energy weapons were single shot, people complained they didn't have enough clips for all the bursts they were firing trying to kill 250 mdc enemies before the enemy got them first.
Now it's .. " What , Umbrage, you will pay 2000 credits or more to recharge your eclip, with your measly 10 shots. I hope you rolled well, because i'm not sparing you any quarter... "
and really, More and more gms are keeping their players Poor. They are not giving them 100K credits a mission to make up for repairs, lost ammo, spent missiles, ...because they want to make it post apocalypse....

Even though it's not post apocalypse by the time we see it, the world's had centuries of recovery time to the point of massive city states and mega-cities like Chi-town and a ubiquitous Black Market that's apparently a giant homogenous thing covering all of North America which while being absurd would be completely impossible in an actual post-apocalypse setting. There are manufacturing centers like Northern Gun and Golden Age Weaponsmiths that are large enough to be relatively well known by people separated by hundreds if not thousands of miles, and so on. It's far closer to the Wild West with scattered industrial centers and areas of dense population and education and small shanty towns and bustling frontier towns than to Post-Apocalypse.

[Warshield73]

OK first of all Nightmask I would point out that we are just talk preferences here. These are opinions of what would make a good story. I thought Flatline had a good idea, period.

Okay, why do you think there needs to be a sense of urgency or such predictability? Why do you think that's something that's somehow supposed to be an essential aspect of things?

I covered this, in detail, and now I will use because it makes a better story that's all. Malcolm Reynolds was not going to risk being shot by Patience for a few luxuries, he would only do it for necessities. It is the same reason I send my players against Brodkil and Xiticix instead of letting them hunt wingtips and psi-ponies all day.

Now do I do this with fuel, no, I don't like to make changes to things unless I have to I just think it makes more sense for all the story and real world reasons I described.

Which again is a common skill for PC, whether or not it's uncommon or rare outside of the PC group it's something very common to them.

OK common for you but I have seen whole groups where the most sophisticated skill they have is Basic Electronics. The first ever group I ran had a hatchling dragon, 2 headhunters (one was illiterate, a GB and a wilderness scout. No massive tech skills there and lots of other groups have the same.

Because the story elements are generally negative things as you rarely see GM doing story elements that gift the PC with anything, it's all about inflicting some sort of limitation or difficulty and ignores the other half of the equation.

OK, your problem is with your GM so find another. I have always run my groups lots of stuff because the tougher they are the more neat monsters I can throw at them. Your problem is not the rules, it is how unevenly the GM applies them.

The problem is your definition of 'perfect sense' doesn't work with the actual books, where we know they have power systems good for more than a decade (and in Phase World as good as 50 years, and a few super-advanced races you can find even the cyborgs good for the next 150 years). They have advanced systems and power conversion that just does better, even for small fighter craft and power armors. Given how difficult it is to even find anything like power armor with less than 10 years of life to it clearly what makes sense for Rifts is long life, miniature power systems capable of powering impressive energy systems continuously.

Seriously where did this come from. You are right about this, that is why Flatline had to modify the system. I simply said I liked his mod.

Except we're talking vehicles and systems that have decades of life to them, so it doesn't matter about those unexplored regions unless you're planning on being in them cut off from refuel for decades, and there aren't many that would be doing that.

Again, you-are-right, that is why he modified it. It would be more interesting and open up whole lines of adventure if had those changes that were mentioned. You could cut people off in months, not decades. I am just more of a fan of hard sci-fi then you are so...

My unfortunate experience with a lot of GMs that are quick to charge insane prices to recharge eclips and repair armor is that those same GMs don't want to figure out any salvage. How many eclips did those dead mercs have? 1 each? Really? How much sense does that make? "Game balance" vs "fair play"

I think Goliath nails it, "Game balance" vs "fair play". The problem is not the rules, it is how the GM applies them. And it is the story that the GM and players want.

[flatline]

Since my setting mods are part of the current discussion, I thought I'd point out that borgs are in the same boat as Power Armor. They're too small to have a reactor in them so they typically run off banks of cells (same tech as e-clips) that they charge every chance they get.

What I've done in my setting is make it easy to charge e-clips (or whatever electrical storage device you have) as long as you have an energy source to charge from. Since only large vehicles and robots have space for reactors, reactors, especially mobile reactors, are far more difficult to come by. Most people use combustion engines to drive generators, but wind power, solar power, and other energy sources are used when convenient.

It's not unusual for a borg or power armor to have a small combustion powered generator that they use to top off their cells when they don't have access to something bigger.

Another change I've made is to reduce the energy levels across the setting. 1MD = 3SDC (with SDC having limited penetration against MDC targets), so that an e-clip is no longer equivalent to 1000 car batteries (or whatever), but instead maybe 10 or 50 car batteries. This puts them back in the scale where portable solar or wind chargers become feasible again.

I like how these changes impact the logistics of the setting. Power Armor no longer fly unless they have external fuel tanks for the turbines or are sure of being able to recharge at the destination or along the way. Both Borgs and PA use e-clips in their energy weapons so that they don't drain their own power source unnecessarily (although in emergencies they still can power their weapons from their internal energy stores). Robots and/or large vehicles with reactors are vital for supporting troops in extended missions away from base and capturing or destroying an enemy reactor can be a big strategic win since the enemy can no longer charge from it. Draining found e-clips to recharge your own e-clips (or whatever) is routine and the hardware for doing so is easily available.

These changes make the setting more interesting to me and they help keep the various regional powers contained. Just the way I like it

--flatline

[Nightmask]

Okay, why do you think there needs to be a sense of urgency or such predictability? Why do you think that's something that's somehow supposed to be an essential aspect of things?

I covered this, in detail, and now I will use because it makes a better story that's all. Malcolm Reynolds was not going to risk being shot by Patience for a few luxuries, he would only do it for necessities. It is the same reason I send my players against Brodkil and Xiticix instead of letting them hunt wingtips and psi-ponies all day.

Now do I do this with fuel, no, I don't like to make changes to things unless I have to I just think it makes more sense for all the story and real world reasons I described.

Except it doesn't make for a better story, it MIGHT make for a better story, or it could DETRACT from the story because they're spending way too much time worrying about running out of stuff and trying to avoid that that they can't really advance the story any or have to go backwards at times because of it.

Which again is a common skill for PC, whether or not it's uncommon or rare outside of the PC group it's something very common to them.

OK common for you but I have seen whole groups where the most sophisticated skill they have is Basic Electronics. The first ever group I ran had a hatchling dragon, 2 headhunters (one was illiterate, a GB and a wilderness scout. No massive tech skills there and lots of other groups have the same.

I imagine if they're going that route they either have little to no technology or their GM makes repairs and resupply relatively easily. It would be really stupid or really poor planning to have no one in the group capable of doing repairs knowing the GM also makes such things almost impossible to find.

Because the story elements are generally negative things as you rarely see GM doing story elements that gift the PC with anything, it's all about inflicting some sort of limitation or difficulty and ignores the other half of the equation.

OK, your problem is with your GM so find another. I have always run my groups lots of stuff because the tougher they are the more neat monsters I can throw at them. Your problem is not the rules, it is how unevenly the GM applies them.

No, that's also been my observation around here from many other GM who've declared how they'd deny various things and looking for negative things to do to their players characters and the negative responses when someone suggests giving out something or making good things available instead of one thing after another going wrong.

The problem is your definition of 'perfect sense' doesn't work with the actual books, where we know they have power systems good for more than a decade (and in Phase World as good as 50 years, and a few super-advanced races you can find even the cyborgs good for the next 150 years). They have advanced systems and power conversion that just does better, even for small fighter craft and power armors. Given how difficult it is to even find anything like power armor with less than 10 years of life to it clearly what makes sense for Rifts is long life, miniature power systems capable of powering impressive energy systems continuously.

Seriously where did this come from. You are right about this, that is why Flatline had to modify the system. I simply said I liked his mod.

It should be obvious where it came from, and Flatline didn't have to change the system it works fine as is.

Except we're talking vehicles and systems that have decades of life to them, so it doesn't matter about those unexplored regions unless you're planning on being in them cut off from refuel for decades, and there aren't many that would be doing that.

Again, you-are-right, that is why he modified it. It would be more interesting and open up whole lines of adventure if had those changes that were mentioned. You could cut people off in months, not decades. I am just more of a fan of hard sci-fi then you are so...

No, actually, that really doesn't open up 'whole lines of adventure' and it's really not more interesting. Running out of fuel or supply isn't an adventure, it's a restriction, and no you aren't more of a fan of hard sci-fi than I am, because having power systems that can run for decades without recharging is a common element in science-fiction including hard science-fiction.

Hard science fiction also has zero problems with energy weapons that can be easily recharged by portable rechargers or the team techie kitbashing something to do so in a pinch. Unless the protagonists in the story are cut off from a vehicle or other item with a power generator to plug into and having to count their shots they routinely set to work recharging e-clips once they're out of combat to keep combat-ready. It would be stupid to try and get around in Rifts with crates of E-clips and no means whatsover other than trying to find a town that's got tech enough to handle a recharging when your life depends on them. It's not 1st edition AD&D where the PC are expected to be tied to a town and having to constantly acquiring arrows, daggers, spell components, etc. but a setting filled with high technology and magic that allows a group, particularly one with a focus on energy weapons, to not have to concern themselves with having to depend on some town for recharging their weapons.

[Damian Magecraft]

Mask...
Your choice of words is very telling....
Gift and give rather than REWARD.
It's a game about challenges.
Risk and reward is the name of the game.
Not how easily a group can roll over a situation.
Every time an argument about easy access to XYZ its about getting something for nothing. That is not fun for anyone except a specific type of player.

[Goliath Strongarm]

I have to agree with DM here.

Also, for those that want to make PCs have to worry about fuel, ammo recharge, etc etc etc... Do you do the same to your NPCs? If not, why not?

[Nightmask]

There are valid reasons to worry about that for npcs. but many gms (especially the power mizer gm) will always just make everything difficult or next to impossible.

Yes, you'd think someone with infinite power and infinite resources wouldn't be so difficult like that.

[Damian Magecraft]

There are valid reasons to worry about that for npcs. but many gms (especially the power mizer gm) will always just make everything difficult or next to impossible.

Yes, you'd think someone with infinite power and infinite resources wouldn't be so difficult like that.

So let me see if I get this straight...
You argue against the possibility of one type of GM abusing this by insisting; nay, demanding that the game screw over all GMs and players who have a class ability bypassing the high costs by granting you the player infinite ammo, resources, and energy?
And you have the stones after that to say its the GMs that are your problem?

There is name for that kind of player.

[Icefalcon]

I have to agree with DM here.

Also, for those that want to make PCs have to worry about fuel, ammo recharge, etc etc etc... Do you do the same to your NPCs? If not, why not?

Anything that applies to the players also applies to the NPC's in my games.

[Icefalcon]

Mask...
Your choice of words is very telling....
Gift and give rather than REWARD.
It's a game about challenges.
Risk and reward is the name of the game.
Not how easily a group can roll over a situation.
Every time an argument about easy access to XYZ its about getting something for nothing. That is not fun for anyone except a specific type of player.

I have to agree with you. I don't think the players NEED to get their hands on every little toy they want without working for it.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Ok, I'm going to try to be very careful in how I say this, and it's not aimed at any one person. In fact, it is aimed at BOTH sides of this argument.



If a little thing like the few credits they spend on ammo actually is going to be that major of an issue, you might be a bit too stingy. Now, I'm not talking about missiles, rockets, etc.

If you can't think of a way around the "fuel" issue because their power supplies are good for decades, you need to go back to thinking. I literally spent about 15 seco
nds thinking on that post before posting those ideas. Given actual time, I could do better. And I'm primarily a FANTASY player, which means my tech thinking is slowed.


If you look you were looking at the ammo as virtually unlimited, then there is also a problem. Keep in mind that doing things like constantly charging ammo packs and other gadgets and gizmos off of their vehicles andarmor, they will be sucking up some of the life. Sure, if the life is 100 years, no big. If the life is 20 years, bigger deal.

Also, those power supply lifespans are based on proper maintenance and a tech head who can regulate everything. How often do your PCs get their stuff checked?

[Damian Magecraft]

My issue is with the argument of anyone with the skills can build it is the trivialization of class abilities that are designed to bypass the heavy costs.

[Goliath Strongarm]

My issue is with the argument of anyone with the skills can build it is the trivialization of class abilities that are designed to bypass the heavy costs.

I can agree- but only because I think the argument is the wrong one

I completely agree that it should be almost [color=#BF0000][/color]impossible for people to BUILD one.

Much easier, on the other hand, for people to jury rig something up, adapting to power supplies they have, and making something work. Not professional quality, not great, but it works- usually.

Jury rigging something and actually BUILDING something are very different. And that seems to be the problem with this. Instead of having various degrees of quality, GMs want the easy way out, and make it all professional and the same. Which trivializes some characters, and boosts others.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Also, I would like to apologize for for the typos and double words, etc on my posts past couple of days- these forums are not phone friendly.

[Nightmask]

Mask...
Your choice of words is very telling....
Gift and give rather than REWARD.
It's a game about challenges.
Risk and reward is the name of the game.
Not how easily a group can roll over a situation.
Every time an argument about easy access to XYZ its about getting something for nothing. That is not fun for anyone except a specific type of player.

The only thing telling is you have issues with the word 'gift', a neutral term and one where a gift can also be a reward. There is also the fact that sometimes it's just a good idea for the players to see their characters get something without having to go through a meat grinder to get it. You also speak in fallacious extremes, either everyone having to grind and scrape for everything to 'earn' it (your apparent position) or it's all just Monty Haul with everything given out without having to work for it, when there's an entire range in there of sometimes working hard and sometimes not.

Well okay, the other thing telling is that you've a fixation on that 'something for nothing' nonsense argument, where you can't even pick up a stick to walk with because 'oh no he didn't have to fight something to get it!'. In the case here for example, we're talking something the characters have in abundance (electrical energy) that they're using to recharge their energy weapons between fights. That is NOT something for nothing, that is something they have being used for something else instead of being wasted. The effort to try and make it out as a 'something for nothing' argument and the disparaging comment (because you definitely aren't using 'that type of player' in anything but a negative context) just goes to show how much you have no idea what the argument and point being made is at all and you're just trying to make it into one to demonize both the point and the person making the point.

I shouldn't also have to point out that to actually be realistic sometimes the characters SHOULD be rolling over things and getting some perks, it shouldn't be 100% of the time their opposition being equal to or greater than they are in ability. Not everything is or should be a challenge, only the worst sorts of storytelling have the protagonists (i.e. the PC) ALWAYS having to fight and scrabble for things, never getting a break, going from one trauma to the next and never having any silver linings to their clouds. It's why we have 'breather episodes' in anime, and similar in storytelling as non-stop struggle fatigues the reader and it's a lot worse if you're a player having to roleplay out every single game one depressing stressful thing after another. People get enough of that in RL, if they're getting it in their games to there's no point to the game and you might as well just go watch TV because you aren't getting any of the relaxation and escape the game should be providing.

[Goliath Strongarm]

I shouldn't also have to point out that to actually be realistic sometimes the characters SHOULD be rolling over things and getting some perks, it shouldn't be 100% of the time their opposition being equal to or greater than they are in ability. Not everything is or should be a challenge, only the worst sorts of storytelling have the protagonists (i.e. the PC) ALWAYS having to fight and scrabble for things, never getting a break, going from one trauma to the next and never having any silver linings to their clouds. It's why we have 'breather episodes' in anime, and similar in storytelling as non-stop struggle fatigues the reader and it's a lot worse if you're a player having to roleplay out every single game one depressing stressful thing after another. People get enough of that in RL, if they're getting it in their games to there's no point to the game and you might as well just go watch TV because you aren't getting any of the relaxation and escape the game should be providing.

Depends entirely on the point of your games. And to say definitively otherwise is WRONG. Sure, some people might enjoy that. Others of us do not.

Just as when I read a set of books, I'm not expecting to read about where the hero rolls over the bad guys- I'm expecting to read about the big fights, where he's struggling. Sure, there are those ones where he rolls over the enemy, but most of those happen between chapters or between books, and are referenced. If they DO actually happen "on camera" they are so short that it's not even funny, unless something important happens, like the hero discovering a new power, or a major villain swearing allegiance to the hero, etc etc.

MOST players that I've known over the years feel the same- the game sessions are about the big stuff, not the small stuff. We don't handle the small stuff in detail. If anything, we discuss it, and the GM handle's it "from above", but we don't get into nitty detail.

If the players want a break, that's when we take the time for a "shopping trip" or some time for "base setup" or something different like that.

But for steamrolling the enemy? Sure, they steamroll the enemy all the time. It's called the mooks that are serving the bad guy that the heroes are going after. That's what the mooks are for. The horde of wimps that offer no real challenge to the PCs except that there are so many of them.


Oh, and as for "gift"- let's look at what a gift is, shall we?
1. something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present.
2. the act of giving.
3. something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned: Those extra points he got in the game were a total gift.
4. a special ability or capacity; natural endowment; talent: the gift of saying the right thing at the right time.

Do any of those show that a gift is EARNED? Any of them? Or perhaps were you wrong? Willing to consider that?

A reward is earned. A gift is not.

[Damian Magecraft]

I shouldn't also have to point out that to actually be realistic sometimes the characters SHOULD be rolling over things and getting some perks, it shouldn't be 100% of the time their opposition being equal to or greater than they are in ability. Not everything is or should be a challenge, only the worst sorts of storytelling have the protagonists (i.e. the PC) ALWAYS having to fight and scrabble for things, never getting a break, going from one trauma to the next and never having any silver linings to their clouds. It's why we have 'breather episodes' in anime, and similar in storytelling as non-stop struggle fatigues the reader and it's a lot worse if you're a player having to roleplay out every single game one depressing stressful thing after another. People get enough of that in RL, if they're getting it in their games to there's no point to the game and you might as well just go watch TV because you aren't getting any of the relaxation and escape the game should be providing.

Depends entirely on the point of your games. And to say definitively otherwise is WRONG. Sure, some people might enjoy that. Others of us do not.

Just as when I read a set of books, I'm not expecting to read about where the hero rolls over the bad guys- I'm expecting to read about the big fights, where he's struggling. Sure, there are those ones where he rolls over the enemy, but most of those happen between chapters or between books, and are referenced. If they DO actually happen "on camera" they are so short that it's not even funny, unless something important happens, like the hero discovering a new power, or a major villain swearing allegiance to the hero, etc etc.

MOST players that I've known over the years feel the same- the game sessions are about the big stuff, not the small stuff. We don't handle the small stuff in detail. If anything, we discuss it, and the GM handle's it "from above", but we don't get into nitty detail.

If the players want a break, that's when we take the time for a "shopping trip" or some time for "base setup" or something different like that.

But for steamrolling the enemy? Sure, they steamroll the enemy all the time. It's called the mooks that are serving the bad guy that the heroes are going after. That's what the mooks are for. The horde of wimps that offer no real challenge to the PCs except that there are so many of them.


Oh, and as for "gift"- let's look at what a gift is, shall we?
1. something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present.
2. the act of giving.
3. something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned: Those extra points he got in the game were a total gift.
4. a special ability or capacity; natural endowment; talent: the gift of saying the right thing at the right time.

Do any of those show that a gift is EARNED? Any of them? Or perhaps were you wrong? Willing to consider that?

A reward is earned. A gift is not.

said it better than I could.

[Goliath Strongarm]

3. something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned: Those extra points he got in
A reward is earned. A gift is not.

said it better than I could.

Funnily enough, that example was the one actually given, I didn't just put that in there. Divine Irony at its best!

[Noon]

I shouldn't also have to point out that to actually be realistic sometimes the characters SHOULD be rolling over things and getting some perks, it shouldn't be 100% of the time their opposition being equal to or greater than they are in ability. Not everything is or should be a challenge, only the worst sorts of storytelling have the protagonists (i.e. the PC) ALWAYS having to fight and scrabble for things, never getting a break, going from one trauma to the next and never having any silver linings to their clouds. It's why we have 'breather episodes' in anime, and similar in storytelling as non-stop struggle fatigues the reader and it's a lot worse if you're a player having to roleplay out every single game one depressing stressful thing after another. People get enough of that in RL, if they're getting it in their games to there's no point to the game and you might as well just go watch TV because you aren't getting any of the relaxation and escape the game should be providing.

There's alot of different types of fiction/story out there.

Or more to the point, why shouldn't you bend your prefered way of playing to someone elses notion of how much scrabbling for things there will be?

[Nightmask]

I shouldn't also have to point out that to actually be realistic sometimes the characters SHOULD be rolling over things and getting some perks, it shouldn't be 100% of the time their opposition being equal to or greater than they are in ability. Not everything is or should be a challenge, only the worst sorts of storytelling have the protagonists (i.e. the PC) ALWAYS having to fight and scrabble for things, never getting a break, going from one trauma to the next and never having any silver linings to their clouds. It's why we have 'breather episodes' in anime, and similar in storytelling as non-stop struggle fatigues the reader and it's a lot worse if you're a player having to roleplay out every single game one depressing stressful thing after another. People get enough of that in RL, if they're getting it in their games to there's no point to the game and you might as well just go watch TV because you aren't getting any of the relaxation and escape the game should be providing.

There's alot of different types of fiction/story out there.

Or more to the point, why shouldn't you bend your prefered way of playing to someone elses notion of how much scrabbling for things there will be?

That falls under the heading of 'if the game isn't fun why play?', doing it all the time would be making the game not fun instead it's making it miserable drudgery which again is not fun. Having to work at things as part of a range of activities and story features is fine, having to do it all the time and never get a break is another thing entirely.

[Damian Magecraft]

I shouldn't also have to point out that to actually be realistic sometimes the characters SHOULD be rolling over things and getting some perks, it shouldn't be 100% of the time their opposition being equal to or greater than they are in ability. Not everything is or should be a challenge, only the worst sorts of storytelling have the protagonists (i.e. the PC) ALWAYS having to fight and scrabble for things, never getting a break, going from one trauma to the next and never having any silver linings to their clouds. It's why we have 'breather episodes' in anime, and similar in storytelling as non-stop struggle fatigues the reader and it's a lot worse if you're a player having to roleplay out every single game one depressing stressful thing after another. People get enough of that in RL, if they're getting it in their games to there's no point to the game and you might as well just go watch TV because you aren't getting any of the relaxation and escape the game should be providing.

There's alot of different types of fiction/story out there.

Or more to the point, why shouldn't you bend your prefered way of playing to someone elses notion of how much scrabbling for things there will be?

That falls under the heading of 'if the game isn't fun why play?', doing it all the time would be making the game not fun instead it's making it miserable drudgery which again is not fun. Having to work at things as part of a range of activities and story features is fine, having to do it all the time and never get a break is another thing entirely.

So if everyone but one at the table prefers the risk/reward system they have to change to conform the ones preferred method of play?

Said it before...
there is a word for that type of player...






lonely.

[Warshield73]

OK, at this point beyond sorry I even looked in this topic or commented, next time Flatline I will just PM as this is getting silly.

If a little thing like the few credits they spend on ammo actually is going to be that major of an issue, you might be a bit too stingy. Now, I'm not talking about missiles, rockets, etc.

I agree with you 100%, assuming the players go after there equals. I have talked to some GMs who's players will not go near a conflict unless they are guaranteed victory by out numbering or powering the enemy by two or more to one. But, in general you are correct.

If you can't think of a way around the "fuel" issue because their power supplies are good for decades, you need to go back to thinking. I literally spent about 15 seconds thinking on that post before posting those ideas. Given actual time, I could do better. And I'm primarily a FANTASY player, which means my tech thinking is slowed.

Since you felt the need to be snarky here, I am going for it too. The fifteen seconds of thinking should have been preceded by at least a little reading. I said

Take the out of gas scenario- you can still damage the cooling system. And anyone who has done 5 seconds of research on nuclear and/or fusion power systems knows that means you shut down. At maybe it was only a leak, and you need to replace coolant- same scenario, slight change.

I have done this one several times, especially in Phase World, it just lacks the urgency and predictability of a fuel limit. It also means that when the players need to make a long trip they do not have to make any trade offs in weapons or cargo for fuel the way say a modern jet fighter would have to trade off ordinance for drop tanks.

...and this

Or maybe instead of a straight nuke power supply, they are heavy water based.
Or some rare, high output short lived element we haven't yet discovered?

I have considered these and it is one of the reasons I like what Flatline did so much.

I have said this is something you can cheat, this is just one more thing.
Next time, read and think
...end of snark.

If you look you were looking at the ammo as virtually unlimited, then there is also a problem. Keep in mind that doing things like constantly charging ammo packs and other gadgets and gizmos off of their vehicles andarmor, they will be sucking up some of the life. Sure, if the life is 100 years, no big. If the life is 20 years, bigger deal.

This makes no sense. Sure if you do hundreds of thousands of recharges it may drop it a year or so but hardly worth keeping track of. Also, not covered in the rules so I am sure Nightmask would be horrified by it. As a GM I horrified by the prospect of trying to keep track of such things.

Also, those power supply lifespans are based on proper maintenance and a tech head who can regulate everything. How often do your PCs get their stuff checked?

Actually, what you are talking about here is a variation on what Flatline does. Please tell me where in the books it gives a maintenance fee for gear? Repairs sure but not basic maintenance. This would be another "infliction" of requirements by evil GM's against poor PC's.

My issue is with the argument of anyone with the skills can build it is the trivialization of class abilities that are designed to bypass the heavy costs.

I completely agree that it should be almost [color=#BF0000][/color]impossible for people to BUILD one.

Much easier, on the other hand, for people to jury rig something up, adapting to power supplies they have, and making something work. Not professional quality, not great, but it works- usually.

Jury rigging something and actually BUILDING something are very different. And that seems to be the problem with this. Instead of having various degrees of quality, GMs want the easy way out, and make it all professional and the same. Which trivializes some characters, and boosts others.

Going with Goliath on this one. When using RMB I let any PC with basic electronics that was willing to risk damage to their vehicle do this. Under RUE it is basic electronics and jury rig.

As for the fuel and resources thing it is just another story element. Like missiles, spare parts, new weapons, even a safe place to sleep.

Does Invid Invasion / New Generation suck because part of the conflict/story is scrounging protoculture cells? No, if the GM does it once or twice its part of the fun. If every week the GM is saying "well your out of protoculture again" then the GM just sucks. The lack of fuel (gas, SLMH-V, or protoculture) is part of the setting. Your supposed to be more cautious and even get out of your mechs every now and then.

How about Stargate Universe? The Destiny has to recharge by flying into a star constantly, but we only really see it twice. Both are moments of high drama with long lasting consequences. If every episode was centered on refueling, the show would not even had made it through one season much less two.

Again, for Goliath's benefit, this is something you can cheat in other ways but, in my opinion, reducing the fuel supplies makes story and in game sense.

All of the problems you guys are describing is bad GMing, not an issue with the rules.

[Damian Magecraft]

I've had a game occur where the party were all powerful beings with supertype powers, they were travelling to another planet when hidden borgss came out and attacked the pcs. However the party was split and while they won, the borgs blew out the important parts of the ship. They were stuck space and the pcs that could travel FTL in space were left on another planet now assuming the game continued , it would be very important for them to conserve their power (they were stopped from losing all power by the TK bubble by the strongest PC) they could theoretically stay orbit for 24 days. now assume they didnt 'all die out , assume that one of the pcs could create water, the other ice, the other fire, the power mizer gm will kill them all, stating that they ran out of Vital water, ice, or heat, oxygen.. Despite the fact they had supernatural, portentially unlimited sources of that in the pcs. the evil gm would have them slownly die from poisoning/cannibalising each other's powers... but people like Damian would instead argue they are dead because they don't have the credits to pay for repairs and no repair station was available.. ..

No I would have them die from being stupid.
I don't kill characters...
Players kill characters.
In the scenario you describe there would be "outs" available. Not my fault the players can't think.

[Nightmask]

If you look you were looking at the ammo as virtually unlimited, then there is also a problem. Keep in mind that doing things like constantly charging ammo packs and other gadgets and gizmos off of their vehicles andarmor, they will be sucking up some of the life. Sure, if the life is 100 years, no big. If the life is 20 years, bigger deal.

This makes no sense. Sure if you do hundreds of thousands of recharges it may drop it a year or so but hardly worth keeping track of. Also, not covered in the rules so I am sure Nightmask would be horrified by it. As a GM I horrified by the prospect of trying to keep track of such things.

I've no idea where this snipe came from, no one can even remotely justify accusing me of being a 'everything by the book if it's not in the book it doesn't exist' sort, if anything I'm far more often sniped at for suggesting the books are wrong or there needs to be some modifications made to deal with situations not covered in the rules.

In regards to the recharging lowering the lifespan of the nuclear power cores, if in-built energy weapons are shown having unlimited shots off the supply and no note is made of it having a reduced life-span from over-use or just general use then no the core shouldn't see any reduced lifespan at all from recharging e-clips between battles. The energy requirement to recharge those clips is comparable to that of the weapon systems which it is built robustly enough to handle. Given we're talking military-grade equipment it's going to be over-engineered with a power system more capable than they actually need rather than building it to be sub-par or being maxed out from general use (which WOULD reduce life-span).

Also, those power supply lifespans are based on proper maintenance and a tech head who can regulate everything. How often do your PCs get their stuff checked?

Actually, what you are talking about here is a variation on what Flatline does. Please tell me where in the books it gives a maintenance fee for gear? Repairs sure but not basic maintenance. This would be another "infliction" of requirements by evil GM's against poor PC's.

Another bit of unwarranted sniping, I never once called any GM evil over anything of the sort nor did I state or imply that the PC were being put-upon, only that constantly being stuck with drudgery is not entertaining RP (at least it certainly isn't for me). I don't play role-playing games so I can have a more miserable existence than I have RL and after go 'boy I'm so glad my life's not THAT bad off', I play them to get away from that stuff for a few hours at least.

[Goliath Strongarm]

If you can't think of a way around the "fuel" issue because their power supplies are good for decades, you need to go back to thinking. I literally spent about 15 seconds thinking on that post before posting those ideas. Given actual time, I could do better. And I'm primarily a FANTASY player, which means my tech thinking is slowed.

Since you felt the need to be snarky here, I am going for it too. The fifteen seconds of thinking should have been preceded by at least a little reading. I said

Take the out of gas scenario- you can still damage the cooling system. And anyone who has done 5 seconds of research on nuclear and/or fusion power systems knows that means you shut down. At maybe it was only a leak, and you need to replace coolant- same scenario, slight change.

I have done this one several times, especially in Phase World, it just lacks the urgency and predictability of a fuel limit. It also means that when the players need to make a long trip they do not have to make any trade offs in weapons or cargo for fuel the way say a modern jet fighter would have to trade off ordinance for drop tanks.

...and this

Or maybe instead of a straight nuke power supply, they are heavy water based.
Or some rare, high output short lived element we haven't yet discovered?

I have considered these and it is one of the reasons I like what Flatline did so much.

I have said this is something you can cheat, this is just one more thing.
Next time, read and think
...end of snark.

First, I didn't mean to come across as snarky- sorry about that. I'm either on my phone, fighting to use thumbs on virtual keys that are tiny, or on a laptop usually late at night fighting to try to get a toddler to go to sleep, and no fall asleep myself. Either way is not conducive to coming across clearly and overly politely. Now, on to the topic at hand..

As I had said, my words weren't aimed at anyone in particular. They were more of a blanket over everyone. Many of us have our own way of dealing with things, and I wasn't trying to say that any one GMs way to play is right or wrong- more that if your stance was "because this is how it's outlined, this scenario is impossible to do!" is, IMO, a wrong stance to take, because with a little creative thinking you can modify any situation a bit and still play the scenario. Details may change, but the basic idea is still the same. It's like saying "I'm having T-Bone Steak and a Baked Potato for dinner" versus saying "I'm having a porterhouse steak and mashed potatoes for dinner". Details might be different, but, the meal is pretty similar enough that I wouldn't want it every night for a month.

If you look you were looking at the ammo as virtually unlimited, then there is also a problem. Keep in mind that doing things like constantly charging ammo packs and other gadgets and gizmos off of their vehicles andarmor, they will be sucking up some of the life. Sure, if the life is 100 years, no big. If the life is 20 years, bigger deal.

This makes no sense. Sure if you do hundreds of thousands of recharges it may drop it a year or so but hardly worth keeping track of. Also, not covered in the rules so I am sure Nightmask would be horrified by it. As a GM I horrified by the prospect of trying to keep track of such things.

So, that's when you take a round ballpark number. Say, for a juryrigged system (as discussed below), because there is wasted energy, etc, for every 100 "standard" e-clips charged, you take a year off. For "professional" systems, let it be 200. I've seen RIFTs games that have emptied 50 standard E-clips in a single battle (granted, was a good sized party, and a big fight) You can also penalize extreme use of the vehicles that have the power plant, etc. Does it take some extra work? Sure. Is it worth it? Depends on how big of a hassle the systems are to you, and if you think it's fair that the PCs be able to use them to create e-clip recharging systems.

Also, those power supply lifespans are based on proper maintenance and a tech head who can regulate everything. How often do your PCs get their stuff checked?

Actually, what you are talking about here is a variation on what Flatline does. Please tell me where in the books it gives a maintenance fee for gear? Repairs sure but not basic maintenance. This would be another "infliction" of requirements by evil GM's against poor PC's.

Is it? So, is it an "infliction" of the car companies against the "poor public" for us to expect to have to pay for basic maintenance on our vehicles, if we don't have the training and skill to do it ourselves? What about bug-proofing our homes?

See what I mean? Certain things are just commonly expected. And I, personally, don't think are "unfair". Maintenance isn't, IMO, unfair. And that doesn't make the GM evil. Being excessive about it, could, yes. As for a location in the books? You'd have to give me time. I don't know any of the non-PF books that well, and between the toddler and the wife, Im needing to get off the computer...

[Damian Magecraft]

If you look you were looking at the ammo as virtually unlimited, then there is also a problem. Keep in mind that doing things like constantly charging ammo packs and other gadgets and gizmos off of their vehicles andarmor, they will be sucking up some of the life. Sure, if the life is 100 years, no big. If the life is 20 years, bigger deal.

This makes no sense. Sure if you do hundreds of thousands of recharges it may drop it a year or so but hardly worth keeping track of. Also, not covered in the rules so I am sure Nightmask would be horrified by it. As a GM I horrified by the prospect of trying to keep track of such things.

I've no idea where this snipe came from, no one can even remotely justify accusing me of being a 'everything by the book if it's not in the book it doesn't exist' sort, if anything I'm far more often sniped at for suggesting the books are wrong or there needs to be some modifications made to deal with situations not covered in the rules.

In regards to the recharging lowering the lifespan of the nuclear power cores, if in-built energy weapons are shown having unlimited shots off the supply and no note is made of it having a reduced life-span from over-use or just general use then no the core shouldn't see any reduced lifespan at all from recharging e-clips between battles. The energy requirement to recharge those clips is comparable to that of the weapon systems which it is built robustly enough to handle. Given we're talking military-grade equipment it's going to be over-engineered with a power system more capable than they actually need rather than building it to be sub-par or being maxed out from general use (which WOULD reduce life-span).You were never in the service I take it... that statement is laughable at best... Milspec hardware is built by the lowest bidder and short cuts are taken since any left over funds are profit.

Also, those power supply lifespans are based on proper maintenance and a tech head who can regulate everything. How often do your PCs get their stuff checked?

Actually, what you are talking about here is a variation on what Flatline does. Please tell me where in the books it gives a maintenance fee for gear? Repairs sure but not basic maintenance. This would be another "infliction" of requirements by evil GM's against poor PC's.

Another bit of unwarranted sniping, I never once called any GM evil over anything of the sort nor did I state or imply that the PC were being put-upon, only that constantly being stuck with drudgery is not entertaining RP (at least it certainly isn't for me). I don't play role-playing games so I can have a more miserable existence than I have RL and after go 'boy I'm so glad my life's not THAT bad off', I play them to get away from that stuff for a few hours at least.

no? your post history says otherwise. You may not have outright said as much in this thread but your constant harps to that effect in other threads colors readers perceptions... if that is not the image you wanted projected perhaps you should rethink your posts before hitting submit.