Forums of the Megaverse®

Posted: **Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:37 am**

@Generally you lock threads where people are obviously on a path to misbehaving, and there's no evidence of it yet.
I don't think there's any worry of it.

We're grown-ups (and, judging by the stat-yourself thread, all super-geniuses

).

With all due respect, I do wish they'd stop spamming such an interesting thread, though, and share their own ideas or let others share theirs.

Posted: **Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:55 am**

Nightmask wrote:
The Baron of chaos wrote:
Giant2005 wrote:In before lock!

I really wish they'd lock this thread. I know is not such terrible question, but is tricky and riskful.

Generally you lock threads where people are obviously on a path to misbehaving, and there's no evidence of it yet.

Yeah, I think I may have read too much into something trivial - I thought Zamion's post about Zeus succeeding in wiping out the Ice Giants and Jesus's inability to wipe out woe and hatred had implications that were sure to get the thread locked.
I think I may have been the only one to read it that way though

.

Posted: **Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:03 am**

llywelyn wrote:
Giant2005 wrote:
Akashic Soldier wrote:Someone asked why evil and gods of chaos endow their minions with more power. Well, I thought it was obvious... they're cheating.

Cheating works as an explanation .
Not really. If anything, the evil ones would be cheating to get the souls and keep the power for themselves. The Gods of Light would be more likely to be honest and sharing... if that wouldn't precisely encourage the desirous, covetous, selfish nature that their side seeks to diminish.

That mindset is so alien to RPGers, though, that it just seems like Evil Will Always Triumph Because Good Is Dumb.

It does pose another question though: if the forces of evil are quite happy bending the rules to kill and the forces of good aren't willing to bend those same rules to protect; How do the forces of good manage to continue existing? They should have been wiped out aaaaaaaages ago.
A. The G-d of Job plays the very long game and isn't anything like Kev's ideas of "Principled".

B. The Goodies work in Mysterious Ways. Less power up front, but they're the +4 bonuses the players have that civvies don't, the NPC who clues them in on the mission at just the right moment, the car they happen to able to duck behind in the firefight, the hemming and hawing the GM goes through to keep them alive...

I would like the fluff not to confuse Catholicism with Russian Orthodoxy or to so generously favor polytheistic priests, but this is pretty easily worked out on the GM end: I'm fairly certain with a sincere New West priest would have his share of miracles (or "miracles") over a long campaign.

Honestly, the way people think God achieves his goals isn't too different from how the splugorth would achieve the same thing. Indirectly effect the course of events by providing information or motivation in the correct locations. If neither was provided and someone does something that creates a good result, that result is caused by the individual.

Posted: **Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:23 am**

This is Rifts. The Gods could have their own reality show to get worshippers and attract adherents.

Think about that one.

"Well, let's talk about your respective philosophies. Odin, what are your feelings on Giants?"

Odin: Giants are miserable creatures fit only to cower beneath the base of Yggdrassil, the World Tree! They should all be slain or imprisoned beneath Jotunheim in a giant pit!

"And what about your affair with a giantess that produced a half-breed son?"

Odin: We don't talk about that in Asgard.

"So, Dagon, what are your feelings about Giants?"

Posted: **Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:24 am**

llywelyn wrote:
Giant2005 wrote:
Akashic Soldier wrote:Someone asked why evil and gods of chaos endow their minions with more power. Well, I thought it was obvious... they're cheating.

Cheating works as an explanation .
Not really. If anything, the evil ones would be cheating to get the souls and keep the power for themselves. The Gods of Light would be more likely to be honest and sharing... if that wouldn't precisely encourage the desirous, covetous, selfish nature that their side seeks to diminish.

That mindset is so alien to RPGers, though, that it just seems like Evil Will Always Triumph Because Good Is Dumb.

It does pose another question though: if the forces of evil are quite happy bending the rules to kill and the forces of good aren't willing to bend those same rules to protect; How do the forces of good manage to continue existing? They should have been wiped out aaaaaaaages ago.
A. The G-d of Job plays the very long game and isn't anything like Kev's ideas of "Principled".

B. The Goodies work in Mysterious Ways. Less power up front, but they're the +4 bonuses the players have that civvies don't, the NPC who clues them in on the mission at just the right moment, the car they happen to able to duck behind in the firefight, the hemming and hawing the GM goes through to keep them alive...

I would like the fluff not to confuse Catholicism with Russian Orthodoxy or to so generously favor polytheistic priests, but this is pretty easily worked out on the GM end: I'm fairly certain with a sincere New West priest would have his share of miracles (or "miracles") over a long campaign.

You're assuming:
1. Evil gods give a crap about the souls of their followers or their sucsess. By the definition of the evil alignments in Palladium they do not. Their followers are tools to do their will on Earth.

2. I have to call you out on the Job thing because that is a highly theological issue. This is what will likely get this thread locked BUT what people don't realize is that as an angel (and not a human) Lucifer has no free will. As one of the Elohim he is entirely an aspect of Gods divine essence that is emulating sin so we have a personification of evil an enemy to work against and an example of what happens to those who propagate a self destructive approach to life.

They don't teach this in traditional biblical teaching because it's a difficult concept to grasp for many. "God IS good so why would he allow Satan to be evil."

I'm on my iPhone so I want to keep this short but it's all tied into two important factors. 1. God is perfect and eternal and we are his children. Sin is evil BECAUSE it is contray to a perfect and eternal existance and the nature of God. It is destruction. God loves us but as his children he had to give us free will so we could one day grow to be like him. However this is a process that takes many stages. This is merely the first. The wisest and most holy of men is still an infant learning to walk. There are truths and realities beyond our abilities to currently understand. We have the ability to follow the path and become eternal beings but Unfortunatly it is a perfect path and as such there is no flaw in it and as such there can be no deviation from it. Meaning well isn't enough just as the plagues and floods are catalysts for spiritual and emotional growth.

There is no paradox or injustice because all innocent lives will be saved by divine judgement and all those damned do so because that is how they have chosen to live. I won't explain further as I'm tired but that is the ultimate truth of my faith. Like a father gently encouraging his children to walk many will continue to crawl but to survive the natural tide of entropy building speed in our shadow only those who can run will survive. Enter nitty and perfection is a recipe... a scientific formulae... a rationality and singularity that is not up for despite anymore than we can argue 1+1=2. God is trying to save us, from ourselves! He has been since Eden. Trust was not enough so he had to TEACH US so we would know WHY for ourselves.

Back to the game world though!

These are beings of unimaginable power. They are not often concerned with gaining followers as they are concerned with whatever makes them a god. For instance Thor slays Giants and rides the storm and Loki seeks to bring about Ragarok. Tiamat wishes the end of all things. You get the idea. Worshipers are just a cheering squad or fan club. They help them out where they can but they're not NORMALLY going to be as important as the Gods daily activities or ultimate plans. If mortals can be used to achieve those ends... most Gods are not beyond exploiting that while GOOD deities let the mortals live their own lives and only step in when they can or when they absolutely MUST.

Honestly how would you REALLY feel if you were in a firefight with your arch nemesis' mooks and then Odin appeared everytime and did it for you and made your whole team look like bumbling chimps with laser rifles?

Posted: **Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:47 am**

llywelyn wrote:@Generally you lock threads where people are obviously on a path to misbehaving, and there's no evidence of it yet.
I don't think there's any worry of it.

We're grown-ups (and, judging by the stat-yourself thread, all super-geniuses ).

With all due respect, I do wish they'd stop spamming such an interesting thread, though, and share their own ideas or let others share theirs.

Yes that is getting a bit tedious, if the mods were going to lock it just because it was a religious thread it would have been locked the first day and they start reaching the point of violating the TOS with all the 'in before lock!' posts. Frankly I wouldn't want to be risking a possible warning over something so silly.

Posted: **Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:57 am**

Akashic Soldier wrote:They don't teach this in traditional biblical teaching because it's a difficult concept to grasp for many.

I appreciate your very thorough post (& again as long as we're respectful to each other, you can relax about the lock), but you rather missed my point.

Of course, G-d is good. In the Abrahamic faiths G-d is good by definition. Otherwise abhorrent acts - Abraham threatening to kill his son - become good because His will be done and it will all become clear in the great by and by.

My point was that the OT G-d does not fall under Palladium's Principled alignment. And He doesn't.

(EDIT: If you disagree with that point, we could talk about it - but better to do it via PM, since the discussion would get too long and specific to be useful for this thread.)

Worshipers are just a cheering squad or fan club.

At least according to Pantheons, they're not just important PPE sources, but also boost very base stat levels, so that the wars of mankind were (mostly?) wars among the pantheons. I think the very central importance of the worshippers fits most worshippers ideas of themselves and their importance since the Sumerians had Gilgamesh setting off famines and mud-wrestling with the gods. Of course you can rule differently in your games, though.

Honestly how would you REALLY feel if you were in a firefight with your arch nemesis' mooks and then Odin appeared everytime and did it for you and made your whole team look like bumbling chimps with laser rifles?

Anything that deprotagonizes the players sucks. That said, it would be essential for a Priest of Odin to get some feedback sometime. (And remains a handy fallback if a generally faithful character is about to get himself killed.)

Posted: **Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:12 am**

llywelyn wrote:
Akashic Soldier wrote:They don't teach this in traditional biblical teaching because it's a difficult concept to grasp for many.
I appreciate your very thorough post (& again as long as we're respectful to each other, you can relax about the lock), but you rather missed my point.

Of course, G-d is good. In the Abrahamic faiths G-d is good by definition. Otherwise abhorrent acts - Abraham threatening to kill his son - become good because His will be done and it will all become clear in the great by and by.

My point was that the OT G-d does not fall under Palladium's Principled alignment. And He doesn't.

(EDIT: If you disagree with that point, we could talk about it - but better to do it via PM, since the discussion would get too long and specific to be useful for this thread.)

Worshipers are just a cheering squad or fan club.
At least according to Pantheons, they're not just important PPE sources, but also boost very base stat levels, so that the wars of mankind were (mostly?) wars among the pantheons. I think the very central importance of the worshippers fits most worshippers ideas of themselves and their importance since the Sumerians had Gilgamesh setting off famines and mud-wrestling with the gods. Of course you can rule differently in your games, though.

Honestly how would you REALLY feel if you were in a firefight with your arch nemesis' mooks and then Odin appeared everytime and did it for you and made your whole team look like bumbling chimps with laser rifles?
Anything that deprotagonizes the players sucks. That said, it would be essential for a Priest of Odin to get some feedback sometime. (And remains a handy fallback if a generally faithful character is about to get himself killed.)

Odin would never rob his priest of a chance to die an honorable death. Plus that's what the spells are for. Sleeping now.

Oh! One last thing i think you're looking at it backwards. Humans followed their gods. Not the other way. I know their stats are so effected but GENERALLY I don't think dirties are thinking about game mechanics. They are thinking within their paradigm. One culture finds another, pray, God A looks at God B's pantheon and his sensibilities are offended so attacks or speaks out against God B. in an effort to please God A and B the two cultures go to war.

Now I sleep. :lol:

Posted: **Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:47 am**

Akashic Soldier wrote:...dirties....

Posted: **Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:08 pm**

llywelyn wrote:@Generally you lock threads where people are obviously on a path to misbehaving, and there's no evidence of it yet.
I don't think there's any worry of it.

We're grown-ups (and, judging by the stat-yourself thread, all super-geniuses ).

With all due respect, I do wish they'd stop spamming such an interesting thread, though, and share their own ideas or let others share theirs.

I'm not spamming, i'm just worried this threa dwill star developnig in way that will disturb me or worst makle me angry enough to go on "full troll mode"(albeit rarely i got so angry...generally is my sister that cause me such stresful situation). Religion and Politics are dangerous thematics to talk about on a message board.
As for my view.....
I think that often this very theme, is rarely addressed directly in many sci fi or fantasy setting. Infact i always found odd that in Lovercraft world there is simply no track of christian religion whatsoever, and the universe is a chaotic unfriendly place that at worst despise us and at best does not even consider us. Many sci fi setting, either everyone is atheist or new , weird, religion had developed(often being blatant expy of the worst traits of modern religion). Depending on the author religious view. In Comics this is quite common, expecially indie comic, united apparently in a sort of atheist or at least very negative view on christian religion(seminal is Garth Ennis Preacher). Mainstream comics tend to follow the same neutral stance as Palladium Books, sometimes wth individual writer addressing the problem and trying to asnwer it in some way. But since all writers do it on their tip toes end up offering confusing view(sometimes all gods and eities are simply shapes of angels who manifest themselves that way, other time G-d is Jack Kirby, other times there is the Cosmic embodiment of...everything...other times that cosmic embodiment has anothe rentity over him that asnwer to another non specified essence....other times again G-d and the devil are reflection of inherent abstract concept that mirror themsevles in many universes and to many races...as i said confusing things)
Then there are fantasy setting where no matter how close they are to the ****tty middle age (not the truly dark age it was presented by many scholastic books but still on ***ty, literlly ***ty, period) there is no or little chance of even montheistic religion. Sometimes even non caucasian people have somehow ceased to exist.. :-?

I think that classic religion is hard to mix with magic and warrior women, but really is just a guess . Gurps Fantasy did a little miracle in trying to put Monotheistic religion in fantasy setting. Still is a quite uneasy and rigid setting.
Italian Comic John doe offer a curious, and as far as i know...so limited to my knowledge, vision of religion. G-d exist but he is just one of many creator G-d(a category apart of deities apparently), who got his own creation stolen by a sort of investment group of other deities(included Cthulu, norse and greek roman deities)..this reduced the faith/money incomings and limited his power. The managemtn of creation is passed on Fate(another entity, deity) and his agents, the Four Horsemen and deceased Inc.. Eventually he trickone Deceased Inc agent, the titular John Doe, into trigger a series of even that will cause G-d to be back as "Big Boss" of the Creation once again. Eventually John get angry of this and kill G-d becming G-d....
Some webcomics offer wide and vary theories and version. The most touching is the one form Satan's excrement webcomic were it say that G-d is an artist and as such he cannot containt his creative impulse. So he is always creating somethign new, and for his new creation he exist, but for the older ones, well is essentially left on the Angels and Devils to run...
Horror Movie and series play A LOT on G-d sense of Neutrality. Not even Apocalypse, angels revolts, zomibe plagues or else will make the big man act in any way, is all left to good will of humans. At best he can send some messanger , he never talk directly, to say " go on I will trust you can manage to get everything ok". Understandably the heroes of such setting are not too filled with faith and love for their own creator.
Few work of fiction ever shown Jesus...I remeber a crazy comic, by Rob Liefield if i recal, where Jesus ripi himself form the cross and kick the ass of greek/roman deities who had been taunting him....Is probably on of the most depressing depiction of him even seen on comic, somehow. Even if he kick ass. Don't know. In Garth Ennis Wormwood on the other side he is presented in touching way. While on Sinfest webcomic it is recurring character and presented in respectful but not even remotely boring or stuck up way. Evne G-d get shown in firendly way.
Futurama too shown the big G. as stellar computer and explaining in awesome way why he do not act directly.(ah Futurama there is something this show wasn't awesome at?)
.....
On Angels note(as biblican angels)
http://www.cracked.com/article_18757_5- ... ecommended this article is veyr useful in disocvering how similar to Alien Intelligences some angels looked (Wheels withing Wheels with the edges filled with eyes? :eek:

)

As for my opinion and idea...do as you please, but keep in mind that things become more and more complicated, as you start up writing about fitting the monotheistic religion lore into Rifts setting and end up having to answer uneasy, millenia old theological question that were discussed by serious bona to fide phylosopher and thinkers, and that never got a final answer, like "why G-d allow evil to exist?" "why created us in this way" and so on.
Rifts setting offer even harder question "why other sentiend species exist? Did they were created by G-d as well, did he protect them as he protect us?" "the other deities exist and act directly, why G-d does not answer my prayer" "Dog Boys who ocnvert to christian religion and be good, go to paradise?" "Do A soul trasnferred into machine go to paradise?" "How do cyborg appear in afterlife?" "Good undeads go to hell anyway? Even if they did not asked to become undeads?" "A reformend, heroic demons can be forgiven for his sins?" "Killing an angel , even in self defence, is it wrong?" "Soul trappe din a rune weapons, need to be freed, carried directly in paradise, the weapon destoryed or what?"
Question Question over annnying Questions.... Really why would someone put themselves in such painful stress, is beyond me. :nh:

Hope it answered you,because htis is my last reply to this thread(you can send me personal note)

Posted: **Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:03 pm**

I don't find the situation stressful or annoying at all. I do think it's funny so many people say G-d instead of God but that aside. Barron, youre working off uninformed bias. Lovecraftian has several references to Catholism and the Christian God in his work and the same is true of comic books. I can personally assure you there are no qualms with addressing monotheism in comic books.

Also if you feel an urgle to troll and get angry just take a deep breath and get over it man. It makes you look bad more than it "gets the other guy."

And intentionally trolling to get a thread closed or a subject silenced is oppressive and counter-productive. People should be allowed to explore these ideas and pull free of preconception and social pressures.

Posted: **Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:10 pm**

If you want them to exist in your game world, then put them in your game world.

Beware, however, that giving stats to something inevitably leads to players trying to decide if they could kill it.

--flatline

Posted: **Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:25 pm**

flatline wrote:If you want them to exist in your game world, then put them in your game world.

Beware, however, that giving stats to something inevitably leads to players trying to decide if they could kill it.

--flatline

This is a good point and one of the things that I like about Rifts. However if a player group decided they were going to Kill God it might be an idea to make sure its fictional. If it is within their ability they should be able to succeed (not easily mind you) and it should make for an interesting story BUT it would require a group of mature players with a good grip on reality and not mindless zealots with a chip on their shoulder. Its the zealots and the people that try to force their faith and belief on others that give everyone a good name.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:47 am**

TechnoGothic wrote:See DRAGONS AND GODS. In it, the book includes on pg.76 Spirits of Light, Angels.
Cheruu (air), Seraph (fire), Ariel (earth), Tharsis (water).

"GOD" acts through his messagers, the Angels. He would remain in his own dimension, and not get involved himself.

Angel doesn't mean anything except messenger. It is from the Greek Aanglos wich was translated from the Hebrew Mal'ach and can refer to the heavenly or eartly sort. In the Bible it uses it 111 times for the heavenly spirit and 103 times for the mundane human. Mal'ach YHWH is Messenger of the LORD and Mal'ach Elohim is Messenger of God (actually Elohim though used as a name for the big 'G' God is simply the word god or gods so it could be "messenger of a god" or "messenger of gods" as well, but in the Bible Elohim is used to refer to the big 'G' not the little ones.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:49 am**

Akashic Soldier wrote:
flatline wrote:If you want them to exist in your game world, then put them in your game world.

Beware, however, that giving stats to something inevitably leads to players trying to decide if they could kill it.

--flatline

This is a good point and one of the things that I like about Rifts. However if a player group decided they were going to Kill God it might be an idea to make sure its fictional. If it is within their ability they should be able to succeed (not easily mind you) and it should make for an interesting story BUT it would require a group of mature players with a good grip on reality and not mindless zealots with a chip on their shoulder. Its the zealots and the people that try to force their faith and belief on others that give everyone a good name.

God should be as easy to kill as Xy or any of the Old Ones, requireing an entire planet/dimension to war against them and then still only be able to put him to sleep at great sacrifice.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:27 am**

You know I was going to start answering some of the "philosophical" questions asked that supposedly don't have any answers. But then others would comment on me being a zealot or a Bible thumper, just because I'm answering the questions, that would in effect allow "God" to be characterized, with answers that they don't like. So I'll try to answer some. Animals don't have souls they have spirits and Humans were created with both. When we die we don't immediately go to the "heaven" described with the streets made of gold, we reside in the spiritual heaven. The Bible talks of three heavens, they are not all spiritual. One heaven means the air above the Earth, the second is space and the third is the spiritual realm that God lives in. The heaven that is described with the golden streets is a kind of fourth heaven. It is the culmination of God's plan that was set in motion in the Garden of Eden and broken by Adam's original sin, or rather him not taking responsibility for his sin and repenting. The "fourth heaven" is heaven, the spiritual realm, merged with the new Earth. Jesus said there would be no marrage in heaven but Isiah says that no new born children will die. EVERYTHING prior to the fall of man was part of the plan and will be present in heaven. So there will be animals as there was in Eden and there will be childbirth as there would have been in Eden since all were given the command to be fruitful and multiply and manage the Earth. There will be no need for marrage because there will be no lust and we won't need dating services because instead of having to seek out your mate they will be a perfect gift to you... or rather to those that are born there and those that were not married here. Some quote that singleness is a gift from God allowing one to serve him without distraction and that they think that will be the way in Heaven. But that would be counter to God's original commands before the fall. Hmm lets see what else... Ah yes a Dog boy that converts to Christianity and is "good"... doesn't matter. One is not saved by works (what they do) as everything falls short of the glory of God (there is nothing you can do to try to make yourself good enough to go to heaven) but is saved by the grace of God (a free gift, that you just need to receive) through Christ's sacrifice (the perfect unblemished lamb to cover all our sins) provides us salvation... HOWEVER good works will come because of your love of God. Think of it this way with a good earthly father you working for him doesn't make him love you any more but if you really love him you'll work for him because it makes you feel good. So a cyborg in Heaven. After the cyborg has died and the time of judgement has passed and he makes it to Heaven/new Earth then he would have a new body, those who knew his old body (before cyberizing) would recognize him so it must look like the old one... but it would be perfect as in immortal, free of disease and human frailty essentially we will be like Jesus in body. It also says the pain of life or something to that effect but one theologian said he thinks we'd be able to still feel pain otherwise we'd be walking around with nails and other stuff sticking out of our feet. Heaven will not be us sitting on clouds playing harps we will have work as Adam did. Our job will be to help manage creation. Now think about that. Mannaging creation in perfect Christ like bodies. In the Bible when Christ returned from the grave he was able to, well since we're on the Rift's forums, teleport. One minute he is there then in a flash of light he is gone and appears in a city somewhere else. Heck, I'm going to want to go visit Jupiter.

So now to see if I get flamed or if you all can handle this rationally.

Remember that it takes more faith that we evolved from primordial ooze than it does to believe that we were created. Also remember that the big bang doesn't explain where everything came from it only explains how things were dispersed. The laws of cause and effect requires that something had to start the big bang... that would be one heck of a voice, eh?

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:23 am**

Akashic Soldier wrote:I do think it's funny so many people say G-d instead of God but that aside.

Did someone do that aside from me? And it's a nervous tic I picked up from the Jews and the opposite of disrespect, in fact.

Same way some people can get tetchy about writing Christian as "Xian", when it's a perfectly good abbreviation and even has roots in the Greek.

People should be allowed to explore these ideas and pull free of preconception and social pressures.

As long as they're all mutually respectful, sure.

Should also tie back in with the games or running them, of course. =)

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:01 am**

Zer0 Kay wrote::roll: God should ... require[] an entire planet/dimension to war against them and then still only be able to put him to sleep at great sacrifice.

It's up to the GM and I understood the point you were making, but personally I'd make Him a great deal harder than the Old Ones.

Like I mentioned before, the player-surmountable version would have to be something like the Gnostic Demiurge, where the bloody OT war gods like Saboath turn out to be powerful demons pretending to represent the Holy, prompting Jesus to come to set things straight. A storyline like that could be as interesting as a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure Dan Brown book, but you would absolutely need to talk to everyone involved and make sure none of the players would feel excluded or insulted.

You know I was going to start answering some of the "philosophical" questions asked that supposedly don't have any answers. But then others would comment on me being a zealot or a Bible thumper, just because I'm answering the questions,

I don't think anyone feels you're a zealot for sharing your take on it.

I just think humanity's been around long enough, we've got lots of different ideas about G-d and saying your way is the only one (a) hasn't produced a very productive track record and (b) isn't appropriate for useful discussion in this venue.

You only did that right at the end and were pretty good overall.

Just saying.

There's three heavens

Really just the one. Before Newton, absolutely everyone assumed the heavenly bodies operated according to physics different from those seen in the sublunary realm. The mystical precept - independently formulated from Mesopotamia to China - of "As above, so below" was intended to show how heavenly influences impacted and directed the earth and how the wise man might learn to control and master the rhythms of nature. The cool thing is it turned out to be true, just the other way around: the hidden truth was that the heavens were more like the earth than anyone could know.

But yeah, if you were going to fit the Biblical descriptions to modern science, there would be three heavens plus the earthly paradise of New Jerusalem. (Doesn't the earthly paradise of Eden count as a fifth? It was still supposed to be out there somewhere, guarded by an angel with a flaming sword. In Rifts, I'm thinking pocket dimension and lower Mesopotamia.)

Jesus said there would be no marrage in heaven

I didn't know that but it doesn't seem to be on topic for this thread. Could you PM me the verse?

[Same thing with "like Jesus in body". It needs clarification: after the Resurrection, even His disciples didn't recognize Him.]

[Theology]

Interesting explanation of how the CS-approved churches could be speciesist and exclusionary, but I do see the church accepting many more people than the CS does and getting into trouble over it. In fact, I would expect the faithful to be completely supportive of the CS's mission while still leading the protests to protect converted Dbees.

And Protestant faiths would advocate literacy as a means of establishing a personal communion with the Scripture.

If there were good Rifts fiction, I think this would be a big part of it.

Remember that it takes more faith that we evolved from primordial ooze than it does to believe that we were created. Also remember that the big bang doesn't explain where everything came from it only explains how things were dispersed. The laws of cause and effect requires that something had to start the big bang... that would be one heck of a voice, eh?

In-world, the creation of man could've been managed by the Gene Splicers or any number of tinkery godlings and faith (even Pascal's wager) doesn't address which god is right. The only way to establish that would be to use reason, which historically leads us back to the stuff you're criticizing.

EDIT: At first I further commented that this topic might not be useful for this thread, but I changed my mind. Given how abtruse modern cosmology is, it does seem really doubtful that Prosek would choose to explain it to people... and yet it's a really basic question (where did this all come from?). People have to ask it.

Maybe creationism is quite a common belief in the CS, supported by an approved church. Doubtful the geniuses down at Lone Star subscribe to it, though... A demagogue could probably score a lot of points finding strong evidence that the leadership are godless and risking God's wrath. And Prosek would be ruthless fighting back. (Another adventure that would require discussion with the players, but fun.)

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:57 pm**

I want to see a God of Technology ... thats looks like technology personified.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:19 pm**

llywelyn wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote::roll: God should ... require[] an entire planet/dimension to war against them and then still only be able to put him to sleep at great sacrifice.
It's up to the GM and I understood the point you were making, but personally I'd make Him a great deal harder than the Old Ones.

Like I mentioned before, the player-surmountable version would have to be something like the Gnostic Demiurge, where the bloody OT war gods like Saboath turn out to be powerful demons pretending to represent the Holy, prompting Jesus to come to set things straight. A storyline like that could be as interesting as a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure Dan Brown book, but you would absolutely need to talk to everyone involved and make sure none of the players would feel excluded or insulted.

Could also be that every time you kill God it is an "angel" as every vision of God to man has supposedly been an angel.

You know I was going to start answering some of the "philosophical" questions asked that supposedly don't have any answers. But then others would comment on me being a zealot or a Bible thumper, just because I'm answering the questions,
I don't think anyone feels you're a zealot for sharing your take on it.

I just think humanity's been around long enough, we've got lots of different ideas about G-d and saying your way is the only one (a) hasn't produced a very productive track record and (b) isn't appropriate for useful discussion in this venue.

You only did that right at the end and were pretty good overall. Just saying.

Which part? The part about the big bang only being an effect not a cause? Meh could care less about that part. I'll claim that as true as much as any evolutionist claims macro evolution.

There's three heavens
Really just the one. Before Newton, absolutely everyone assumed the heavenly bodies operated according to physics different from those seen in the sublunary realm. The mystical precept - independently formulated from Mesopotamia to China - of "As above, so below" was intended to show how heavenly influences impacted and directed the earth and how the wise man might learn to control and master the rhythms of nature. The cool thing is it turned out to be true, just the other way around: the hidden truth was that the heavens were more like the earth than anyone could know.

Not claiming that there are three Heavens as far as spiritual places. I'm speaking of in the Bible there are three different uses of heaven.

But yeah, if you were going to fit the Biblical descriptions to modern science, there would be three heavens plus the earthly paradise of New Jerusalem. (Doesn't the earthly paradise of Eden count as a fifth? It was still supposed to be out there somewhere, guarded by an angel with a flaming sword. In Rifts, I'm thinking pocket dimension and lower Mesopotamia.)

Two angels, cheribum to be exact, which are NOT putti (fat winged babies). Since Eden was the original plan and after judgement we continue with the original plan, I'd think he'd be returning Eden to Earth. Hmm sounds good for Rifts. I keep hoping they'll take the ban of the middle east and stat it out, even if they just use mesopotamian and syrian gods.

Jesus said there would be no marrage in heaven

I didn't know that but it doesn't seem to be on topic for this thread.[/quote] Could you PM me the verse? Why PM? Matt 22:23-30

[Same thing with "like Jesus in body". It needs clarification: after the Resurrection, even His disciples didn't recognize Him.

But they did when he allowed it didn't they? Luke 24: 15-30 the didn't know him but in 31 "And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. I love that part it kind of shows that Jesus had a Sense of humor, messing with his friends.

[Theology]
Interesting explanation of how the CS-approved churches could be speciesist and exclusionary, but I do see the church accepting many more people than the CS does and getting into trouble over it. In fact, I would expect the faithful to be completely supportive of the CS's mission while still leading the protests to protect converted Dbees.

That would be interesting indeed.

And Protestant faiths would advocate literacy as a means of establishing a personal communion with the Scripture.

Instead of the church during the dark ages

If there were good Rifts fiction, I think this would be a big part of it.

Agreed! I love Christian fiction (CS Lewis etc...) as long as it doesn't lie to try to make you think it is real (The Shack):(

Remember that it takes more faith that we evolved from primordial ooze than it does to believe that we were created. Also remember that the big bang doesn't explain where everything came from it only explains how things were dispersed. The laws of cause and effect requires that something had to start the big bang... that would be one heck of a voice, eh?
In-world, the creation of man could've been managed by the Gene Splicers or any number of tinkery godlings and faith (even Pascal's wager) doesn't address which god is right. The only way to establish that would be to use reason, which historically leads us back to the stuff you're criticizing.

Hmm indeed.

EDIT: At first I further commented that this topic might not be useful for this thread, but I changed my mind. Given how abtruse modern cosmology is, it does seem really doubtful that Prosek would choose to explain it to people... and yet it's a really basic question (where did this all come from?). People have to ask it.

All who really think eventually ask that question.

Maybe creationism is quite a common belief in the CS, supported by an approved church. Doubtful the geniuses down at Lone Star subscribe to it, though... A demagogue could probably score a lot of points finding strong evidence that the leadership are godless and risking God's wrath. And Prosek would be ruthless fighting back. (Another adventure that would require discussion with the players, but fun.)

Maybe, maybe the common belief is Christianity and that the Human race was given commandment from the Creator of the universe that we are supposed to govern it... not those dirty alien heretical bastards. Hmm, normally I'm anti-CS, but I could kind of see it this way, still don't like it but I could understand where they're coming from.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:24 pm**

TechnoGothic wrote:I want to see a God of Technology ... thats looks like technology personified.

That would be cool. Now the only problem is that it is as hard to imagine as God... hmm should that then be spelled Technology?

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:43 pm**

Not-Locked-Count 1

As i understand it, no monotheistic religions are covered. because they don't fit in the setting or story. one all-powerful, all-knowing and incomprehensible being who controls everything and can never be challenged is boring and uncreative. it lends nothing to the game. it lacks anything relating to humanity. which is who the game is for. the polytheistic pantheons have gods with many human characteristics and refining qualities. and are known for being capable for exceptional mortals to defeat. much more interesting to the average gamer.

you can smack talk yahweh, allah, and the budda all day to try and get them to fight you. but they are everything, including you, and if they ever even paid attention to you, you would be rent from existence by accident. to look upon them is to be destroyed in body and mind. you couldnt even comprehend the powers leveled against you.

but that asura guy? or ares? or even thor? you smack talk them, and its time to throw down. if you are a bad enough dude, you might even win. and they'll respect you for that. it would be glorious. it makes a damn fine story. and its fun as all get out, even if you fail.

and polytheistic followers aren't known for crusades, suicide bombings, and death threats. they are a bit more laid back. they dont sue, they dont threaten you, and they wont kill you for looking at their god wrong.

so you will never see palladium touch monotheism.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:28 pm**

Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:Not-Locked-Count 1

As i understand it, no monotheistic religions are covered. because they don't fit in the setting or story. one all-powerful, all-knowing and incomprehensible being who controls everything and can never be challenged is boring and uncreative. it lends nothing to the game. it lacks anything relating to humanity. which is who the game is for. the polytheistic pantheons have gods with many human characteristics and refining qualities. and are known for being capable for exceptional mortals to defeat. much more interesting to the average gamer.

you can smack talk yahweh, allah, and the budda all day to try and get them to fight you. but they are everything, including you, and if they ever even paid attention to you, you would be rent from existence by accident. to look upon them is to be destroyed in body and mind. you couldnt even comprehend the powers leveled against you.

but that asura guy? or ares? or even thor? you smack talk them, and its time to throw down. if you are a bad enough dude, you might even win. and they'll respect you for that. it would be glorious. it makes a damn fine story. and its fun as all get out, even if you fail.

and polytheistic followers aren't known for crusades, suicide bombings, and death threats. they are a bit more laid back. they dont sue, they dont threaten you, and they wont kill you for looking at their god wrong.

so you will never see palladium touch monotheism.

The only reason the polytheistic followers aren't known for suicide bombings is because their faiths were reduced to nearly nothing long before gunpowder really existed, and they managed to crusade just fine and didn't bother with death threats they just spread death when they felt the faith called for it. Those who've revived the faith today have done so while looking back at the scope of history and chosen to not engage in such behavior, just as Christianity grew out of as it realized it wasn't being true to its bible saying one thing and doing another.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:31 pm**

Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:one all-powerful, all-knowing and incomprehensible being who controls everything and can never be challenged is boring and uncreative. it lends nothing to the game.

It isn't boring or uncreative, but it does deprotagonize the player.

One problem is that it's unrealistic the Rifts would marginalize the faiths and it would actually help the story to see some of how that impacts the survivors.

The bigger problem is that the books do deal with monotheism - and absolutely give them less power than the polytheists, contrary both to historical lore and to the game's own mechanics (success is supposed to equate to power). GMs can adjust this on their own - and in fact, G-d often left people to their own devices and doled out impressive miracles only when most needed - but that optional mechanic is something that should be stated outright rather than making the New West and Russian priests look like fools for not signing on with one of the pantheons.

and polytheistic followers aren't known for crusades, suicide bombings, and death threats.

Only because of our terrible educational system.

The Roman Empire in Judea & in dealing with Christians, Pre-Columbian Mesoamerica, India since ever, Japan in WWII, and Sri Lanka today - to take only the most glaring examples - were/are all full of fundamentalist polytheists who are simply overlooked by people wanting to beat up on the faithful closer to home. [edit: Not you, btw. Just the people omitting them from history courses while focusing on the Crusades, Inquisition, &c.]

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:43 pm**

Seeing Jesus walking on Rifts Earth would be interesting.

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:56 am**

Shinitenshi wrote:So if Rifts had God and Jesus would it not also need Satan or Lucifer as well? Are Satan and Lucifer one and the same? (asking because there seems to be a huge debate on this and I am wondering how people think this would be done in Rifts)

a. A Big Baddie isn't essential to monotheism the way it is in dualistic faiths like Gnosticism and Zoroastrianism.

b. Satan is fairly prominent in the Gospel and Quran, but iirc is simply an angel of temptation in Job. The snake was originally a separate guy. There are already plenty of demons and demon lords on Hades who fit the bill. Some of them go by Satan's aliases, so even though Lucifer is the same guy you could write him separately and give him a different backstory. For example, one might be the snake, one the angel, one the fallen angel (his Medieval version), one the modified member of the old Sumerian or Canaanite or Ugaritic pantheon (some of the Hebrews' historical opponents worshipped bull-horned and cloven-hooved gods, as bulls were seen as symbols of power and royalty).

c. See Zer0's post above for how most theologians argue that Satan - should he exist - serves G-d's purposes and is ultimately a force for good.

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:15 am**

Shinitenshi wrote:So if Rifts had God and Jesus would it not also need Satan or Lucifer as well? Are Satan and Lucifer one and the same? (asking because there seems to be a huge debate on this and I am wondering how people think this would be done in Rifts)

Satan is the demon of the firmament and of earthly temptations.
Lucifer is the morning star, first of the fallen.

Over time they were blended into the same entity by poor education and teaching but they are two very different creatures.

Lucifer is also not a red guy with horns and goal legs and a pitch fork, he is the most beautiful man you can ever possibly imagine.

He was more perfect than any of the other Seraphim and any being on Creation second in station and perfection only to God. After the fall Satan became bitter and twisted, sadistic and driven to drive men to destruction because God offers them salvation while condemning Lucifer and the fallen (as they have no free will or soul of their own) to the finite. But nowhere does it say he is a hideous monster. So yeah, as far as we know the King of Hell (which is Earth) is the most beautiful and graceful being on this plane of existence.

Is it any wonder people flock to commercialism and cling to material things?

What could possibly be better or more wonderful than all that is here and now?

Short Version: Lucifer is The Adversary, the personification of all we must struggle against. Sex, power, rebellion, power, dominance, materialism, vice. He is sin incarnate, not as a mythical creature of evil as he is often depicted but as a "being who CHOOSES to rebel against his creature and is condemned to a cruel and meaningless temporary existence.
Satan is a demon who personifies those temptations, he is the one who serves The Morning Star, think of him as Lucifer's shoaffer as he rides this planet through the tides of the entropy into the blackness of finality.

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:22 am**

Akashic Soldier wrote:
Shinitenshi wrote:So if Rifts had God and Jesus would it not also need Satan or Lucifer as well? Are Satan and Lucifer one and the same? (asking because there seems to be a huge debate on this and I am wondering how people think this would be done in Rifts)

Satan is the demon of the firmament and of earthly temptations.
Lucifer is the morning star, first of the fallen.

Over time they were blended into the same entity by poor education and teaching but they are two very different creatures.

Lucifer is also not a red guy with horns and goal legs and a pitch fork, he is the most beautiful man you can ever possibly imagine.

He was more perfect than any of the other Seraphim and any being on Creation second in station and perfection only to God. After the fall Satan became bitter and twisted, sadistic and driven to drive men to destruction because God offers them salvation while condemning Lucifer and the fallen (as they have no free will or soul of their own) to the finite. But nowhere does it say he is a hideous monster. So yeah, as far as we know the King of Hell (which is Earth) is the most beautiful and graceful being on this plane of existence.

Is it any wonder people flock to commercialism and cling to material things?

What could possibly be better or more wonderful than all that is here and now?

Thank you for edumacting some people...and in the olde olde OLDE testament; Shaitan was actualy Yahwe's (sp?) 'prosocutor' and tester of those who's faith may be wanting. In short; he WORKED for the big guy.

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:23 am**

Akashic Soldier wrote:
Shinitenshi wrote:So if Rifts had God and Jesus would it not also need Satan or Lucifer as well? Are Satan and Lucifer one and the same? (asking because there seems to be a huge debate on this and I am wondering how people think this would be done in Rifts)

Satan is the demon of the firmament and of earthly temptations.
Lucifer is the morning star, first of the fallen.

Over time they were blended into the same entity by poor education and teaching but they are two very different creatures.

Lucifer is also not a red guy with horns and goal legs and a pitch fork, he is the most beautiful man you can ever possibly imagine.

He was more perfect than any of the other Seraphim and any being on Creation second in station and perfection only to God. After the fall Satan became bitter and twisted, sadistic and driven to drive men to destruction because God offers them salvation while condemning Lucifer and the fallen (as they have no free will or soul of their own) to the finite. But nowhere does it say he is a hideous monster. So yeah, as far as we know the King of Hell (which is Earth) is the most beautiful and graceful being on this plane of existence.

Is it any wonder people flock to commercialism and cling to material things?

What could possibly be better or more wonderful than all that is here and now?

I really have to wonder how creatures without free will could rebel, since rebelling requires one to act contrary to orders which something without free will cannot do. So they must have free will otherwise they couldn't rebel and if they can't rebel they can't fall.

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:32 am**

DhAkael wrote:What could possibly be better or more wonderful than all that is here and now?

Thank you for edumacting some people...and in the olde olde OLDE testament; Shaitan was actualy Yahwe's (sp?) 'prosocutor' and tester of those who's faith may be wanting. In short; he WORKED for the big guy.[/quote]

They all do. They can't help it. Even though they are rebelling against him they cannot do anything he does not permit. Check out Job, he had to approach God and get his permission to mess with him. Demons are tools of God, examples for people to look at and learn from and overcome on our journey into spiritual growth and understanding the true nature of humanity and our place in the universe. Its trite but evil cannot exist without good but good can exist without evil, but that is a choice. It all comes down to free will.

The thing people overlook at lot of the time is God has won. He has seen every twist and turn. Right now Lucifer is King of the Earth and allowed to do as he will but nothing he does can ultimately damn those who would choose to deny the evil. I know it sounds trite but its true. Its also the reason I no longer attend Churches, tell one person that a demon is an unwitting tool of the Creator God who is driving you towards spiritual perfection and people take issue with you. :lol:

Its not my fault God can see the greatest good and they are limited to seeing their traditions. Anyone ever wonder why the first thing Jesus does in the bible is get pissed and whip the Pharisees? :lol:

What does that say about what God thinks about people who use their faith to exploit, control and misguide others with their interpretations of his word? :lol:

I really have to wonder how creatures without free will could rebel, since rebelling requires one to act contrary to orders which something without free will cannot do. So they must have free will otherwise they couldn't rebel and if they can't rebel they can't fall.

Exactly. They're not rebelling. They're not even people. They're just energy given form and function that is acting in accordance with the nature of sin. They are like divine computer programs or advanced artificial intelligences that God is using so we have an example of something that we couldn't normally see. Demons are sin incarnate, they are what happens to people if we act without discretion or compassion or if overwhelmed with lust or hate. They are examples for us to learn from because we're too stupid to see the consequences ourselves. Basically, they're there to show us what happens to US if we forsake God and his teachings of love, compassion and wisdom. That is why they have no real power over us.

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:54 am**

Shinitenshi wrote:I am a firm believer that you can not have good with out evil and evil without good.

*taps his nose*

Oh but you can.

See look at it like this...

Good is that which cares and nurtures, from good there is growth, from good comes understanding. Lives guided by a cycle of good propagate and expand. While evil, evil also grows, but through consumption and disregard. Evil takes to expand itself. Seizes rather than gives and so evil ultimately can only spread more of itself. That is the nature of evil. Now that means that like Lucifer in the previous scenario you can, through defiance of justice, and righteousness and all that is good become King of a World.

But it will always be a throne built on sand.

Where as good elevates and educated. It gives and continues to give where is needed. As such, were the world ruled by good no one would want, for there are resources enough in this world for everyone to have everything they need... but such a world requires a community of open hands and selfless sacrifice.

I am writing this on a bus on my iPhone so I am in a rush but I guess my point is:
Good can exist as Good without a need for evil, it can grow and reach heights I can't begin to explain here.
Evil cannot exist without good to feed upon for it greedily consumes everything it touches. It poisons and corrupts and twists. And when no good remains, when the only justice or thing remaining is evil it turns on itself until nothing is left but ruin and despair.

Love, and understanding, togetherness and education, forgiveness, these are all the things that are good in the world... all of them born of and lived through man, each passing like a touch freely and giving meaning and light to peoples lives. From faded photographs filled with laughter to a the radiant glow of...

Ah I am rambling like a sap.

There are too many evils for me to even begin to mention. But I cannot think of one that makes the world a better place or deserves to last.

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:20 am**

SamtheDagger wrote:
The Coalition, for its part, refuses to acknowledge a state religion but allows many religions to exist among the population of Coalition citizens. Many believe the Proseks are humanists and atheists who do not endorse religion because of its potential to cause religious war and the fact that many of the old gods are considered D-Bees who have no right to Earth. The Emperor is actually more tolerant of the religions whose gods have never shown themselves, which seems to be in line with this theory. But the upper echelon of Coalition leadership rarely even mentions religion, let alone legislate it, which leaves many to wonder.

Anyway, that is how I run it.

I really like this!

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:22 am**

Zamion138 wrote:perhapes the comming of the rifts is what happened after the golden age when jesus came back and thoose left were the non-faithfull.

jesus said he would get rid of woe and hatred.
odin said he would rid the world of ice giants.....

I dont see any ice giants around.

Only if your Thor is from the comics.
Thunder was said to be the sound of Thor battling the frost giants. There was a thunderstorm here last week. =)

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:36 am**

Akashic Soldier wrote:
Shinitenshi wrote:I am a firm believer that you can not have good with out evil and evil without good.

*taps his nose*

Oh but you can.

See look at it like this...

Good is that which cares and nurtures, from good there is growth, from good comes understanding. Lives guided by a cycle of good propagate and expand. While evil, evil also grows, but through consumption and disregard. Evil takes to expand itself. Seizes rather than gives and so evil ultimately can only spread more of itself. That is the nature of evil. Now that means that like Lucifer in the previous scenario you can, through defiance of justice, and righteousness and all that is good become King of a World.

But it will always be a throne built on sand.

Where as good elevates and educated. It gives and continues to give where is needed. As such, were the world ruled by good no one would want, for there are resources enough in this world for everyone to have everything they need... but such a world requires a community of open hands and selfless sacrifice.

I am writing this on a bus on my iPhone so I am in a rush but I guess my point is:
Good can exist as Good without a need for evil, it can grow and reach heights I can't begin to explain here.
Evil cannot exist without good to feed upon for it greedily consumes everything it touches. It poisons and corrupts and twists. And when no good remains, when the only justice or thing remaining is evil it turns on itself until nothing is left but ruin and despair.

Love, and understanding, togetherness and education, forgiveness, these are all the things that are good in the world... all of them born of and lived through man, each passing like a touch freely and giving meaning and light to peoples lives. From faded photographs filled with laughter to a the radiant glow of...

Ah I am rambling like a sap.

There are too many evils for me to even begin to mention. But I cannot think of one that makes the world a better place or deserves to last.

Totally agree, most of what we call evil is the corruption of something good. While the good can exist on its own the evil cant. For example:(and yes these are very simple examples)
Money is not evil, But what men will do for money can be.
Sex is not evil, Rape is. Rape relies on sex to exist, not the other way around.
Life must exist to be taken away by murder. But murder is not needed for life to exist.
ect. ect. ect.

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:39 am**

Shinitenshi wrote:So if Rifts had God and Jesus would it not also need Satan or Lucifer as well? Are Satan and Lucifer one and the same? (asking because there seems to be a huge debate on this and I am wondering how people think this would be done in Rifts)

Satan or rather The Satan that is referred to in Job may or may not be the "Devil" as the word just means adversary and is used as a legal term. Satan is the prosecuting attourney in Job. So that Satan is surely different than the Satan that we all imagine as the fallen angel. Even in Genesis it could be the same "The Satan" prosecuting attourney character who was punished because he wasn't given the go ahead by God to tempt Eve. BTW if the serpent was cursed from that day on to crawl on his belly... shouldn't that mean that he had legs before that?

Lucifer actually comes from the Latin lucem (or lux) ferre or light bearer and was the latin name for the day star. It is used because the Hebrew word used is Helel or Shining One which is the Hebrew name for the day star.

It is interesting to note that Jesus was also called the day star. The former for where he fell from and the latter for who he is.

In general Satan and Luxferre are interchangable with the Devil... which happens to be from the Greek diábolos which means 'slanderer' or 'accuser'. So Devil and Satan or ha-Satan in Hebrew or Shaitan in Arabic are translations of the same word and is almost a possition or job title while Lucifer and Luxferre seems to be a statment of fallen status. Either can be the name because as we know the Hebrew people liked using names that meant something and didn't just sound cool.

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:46 am**

llywelyn wrote:
Shinitenshi wrote:So if Rifts had God and Jesus would it not also need Satan or Lucifer as well? Are Satan and Lucifer one and the same? (asking because there seems to be a huge debate on this and I am wondering how people think this would be done in Rifts)
a. A Big Baddie isn't essential to monotheism the way it is in dualistic faiths like Gnosticism and Zoroastrianism.

b. Satan is fairly prominent in the Gospel and Quran, but iirc is simply an angel of temptation in Job. The snake was originally a separate guy. There are already plenty of demons and demon lords on Hades who fit the bill. Some of them go by Satan's aliases, so even though Lucifer is the same guy you could write him separately and give him a different backstory. For example, one might be the snake, one the angel, one the fallen angel (his Medieval version), one the modified member of the old Sumerian or Canaanite or Ugaritic pantheon (some of the Hebrews' historical opponents worshipped bull-horned and cloven-hooved gods, as bulls were seen as symbols of power and royalty).

c. See Zer0's post above for how most theologians argue that Satan - should he exist - serves G-d's purposes and is ultimately a force for good.

You forgot that a veritable pantheon exists in the "monotheistic" Judeo-Christian God... after all how many names does He have?

Jehova Jira, Abba Father, YHWH, Adonai, El, Elah, Eloah, Elohim, El Roi, El Shaddai, Elyon, etc...

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:48 am**

Nightmask wrote:
Akashic Soldier wrote:
Shinitenshi wrote:So if Rifts had God and Jesus would it not also need Satan or Lucifer as well? Are Satan and Lucifer one and the same? (asking because there seems to be a huge debate on this and I am wondering how people think this would be done in Rifts)

Satan is the demon of the firmament and of earthly temptations.
Lucifer is the morning star, first of the fallen.

Over time they were blended into the same entity by poor education and teaching but they are two very different creatures.

Lucifer is also not a red guy with horns and goal legs and a pitch fork, he is the most beautiful man you can ever possibly imagine.

He was more perfect than any of the other Seraphim and any being on Creation second in station and perfection only to God. After the fall Satan became bitter and twisted, sadistic and driven to drive men to destruction because God offers them salvation while condemning Lucifer and the fallen (as they have no free will or soul of their own) to the finite. But nowhere does it say he is a hideous monster. So yeah, as far as we know the King of Hell (which is Earth) is the most beautiful and graceful being on this plane of existence.

Is it any wonder people flock to commercialism and cling to material things?

What could possibly be better or more wonderful than all that is here and now?

I really have to wonder how creatures without free will could rebel, since rebelling requires one to act contrary to orders which something without free will cannot do. So they must have free will otherwise they couldn't rebel and if they can't rebel they can't fall.

I'd like to see the verse that states that angels don't have free will.

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:51 am**

Shinitenshi wrote:
Akashic Soldier wrote:
Shinitenshi wrote:So if Rifts had God and Jesus would it not also need Satan or Lucifer as well? Are Satan and Lucifer one and the same? (asking because there seems to be a huge debate on this and I am wondering how people think this would be done in Rifts)

Satan is the demon of the firmament and of earthly temptations.
Lucifer is the morning star, first of the fallen.

Over time they were blended into the same entity by poor education and teaching but they are two very different creatures.

Lucifer is also not a red guy with horns and goal legs and a pitch fork, he is the most beautiful man you can ever possibly imagine.

He was more perfect than any of the other Seraphim and any being on Creation second in station and perfection only to God. After the fall Satan became bitter and twisted, sadistic and driven to drive men to destruction because God offers them salvation while condemning Lucifer and the fallen (as they have no free will or soul of their own) to the finite. But nowhere does it say he is a hideous monster. So yeah, as far as we know the King of Hell (which is Earth) is the most beautiful and graceful being on this plane of existence.

Is it any wonder people flock to commercialism and cling to material things?

What could possibly be better or more wonderful than all that is here and now?

Short Version: Lucifer is The Adversary, the personification of all we must struggle against. Sex, power, rebellion, power, dominance, materialism, vice. He is sin incarnate, not as a mythical creature of evil as he is often depicted but as a "being who CHOOSES to rebel against his creature and is condemned to a cruel and meaningless temporary existence.
Satan is a demon who personifies those temptations, he is the one who serves The Morning Star, think of him as Lucifer's shoaffer as he rides this planet through the tides of the entropy into the blackness of finality.

Thank you AS. You also answered another question I have always wondered. I have always been lead to believe Lucifer was a beautiful Angel and wondered how he all the sudden started looking like Cernunnos.

Llywelyn- From everything I have ever read and been told the devil is a very essential. Catholics and Christians are always talking about Hell, Satan, the devil and such.

I am a firm believer that you can not have good with out evil and evil without good.

He started looking like Cernunnos because early Christians were using Pan as a model for the devil to keep people away from the Greek gods. Did you know that there is a Saint Cernune that is the patron saint of horned animals... happens to be in the area that the Celts would have been worshipping Cernunnos.

I don't think the red devil with the pitch fork came around until Dante's Inferno.

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:58 am**

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Akashic Soldier wrote:Satan is the demon of the firmament and of earthly temptations.
Lucifer is the morning star, first of the fallen.

Over time they were blended into the same entity by poor education and teaching but they are two very different creatures.

Lucifer is also not a red guy with horns and goal legs and a pitch fork, he is the most beautiful man you can ever possibly imagine.

He was more perfect than any of the other Seraphim and any being on Creation second in station and perfection only to God. After the fall Satan became bitter and twisted, sadistic and driven to drive men to destruction because God offers them salvation while condemning Lucifer and the fallen (as they have no free will or soul of their own) to the finite. But nowhere does it say he is a hideous monster. So yeah, as far as we know the King of Hell (which is Earth) is the most beautiful and graceful being on this plane of existence.

Is it any wonder people flock to commercialism and cling to material things?

What could possibly be better or more wonderful than all that is here and now?

I really have to wonder how creatures without free will could rebel, since rebelling requires one to act contrary to orders which something without free will cannot do. So they must have free will otherwise they couldn't rebel and if they can't rebel they can't fall.

I'd like to see the verse that states that angels don't have free will.

Just noting the contradiction in Akashic's statement that all the fallen have no free will, when free will is a requirement to fall because you have to be capable of saying 'no' to defy God and fall. If the main fallen can defy God when called upon to bow to God's creation and the rest choose to follow him over God then they must have free will just like God's other creation. At worst you just see it that God was extra displeased with them defying him since Mankind has lived in the flesh whereas the angels have all lived on the higher plane with God and knew far better the cost of breaking the rules.

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:04 am**

Shinitenshi wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Shinitenshi wrote:
Akashic Soldier wrote:
Shinitenshi wrote:So if Rifts had God and Jesus would it not also need Satan or Lucifer as well? Are Satan and Lucifer one and the same? (asking because there seems to be a huge debate on this and I am wondering how people think this would be done in Rifts)

Satan is the demon of the firmament and of earthly temptations.
Lucifer is the morning star, first of the fallen.

Over time they were blended into the same entity by poor education and teaching but they are two very different creatures.

Lucifer is also not a red guy with horns and goal legs and a pitch fork, he is the most beautiful man you can ever possibly imagine.

He was more perfect than any of the other Seraphim and any being on Creation second in station and perfection only to God. After the fall Satan became bitter and twisted, sadistic and driven to drive men to destruction because God offers them salvation while condemning Lucifer and the fallen (as they have no free will or soul of their own) to the finite. But nowhere does it say he is a hideous monster. So yeah, as far as we know the King of Hell (which is Earth) is the most beautiful and graceful being on this plane of existence.

Is it any wonder people flock to commercialism and cling to material things?

What could possibly be better or more wonderful than all that is here and now?

Short Version: Lucifer is The Adversary, the personification of all we must struggle against. Sex, power, rebellion, power, dominance, materialism, vice. He is sin incarnate, not as a mythical creature of evil as he is often depicted but as a "being who CHOOSES to rebel against his creature and is condemned to a cruel and meaningless temporary existence.
Satan is a demon who personifies those temptations, he is the one who serves The Morning Star, think of him as Lucifer's shoaffer as he rides this planet through the tides of the entropy into the blackness of finality.

Thank you AS. You also answered another question I have always wondered. I have always been lead to believe Lucifer was a beautiful Angel and wondered how he all the sudden started looking like Cernunnos.

Llywelyn- From everything I have ever read and been told the devil is a very essential. Catholics and Christians are always talking about Hell, Satan, the devil and such.

I am a firm believer that you can not have good with out evil and evil without good.

He started looking like Cernunnos because early Christians were using Pan as a model for the devil to keep people away from the Greek gods. Did you know that there is a Saint Cernune that is the patron saint of horned animals... happens to be in the area that the Celts would have been worshipping Cernunnos.

I don't think the red devil with the pitch fork came around until Dante's Inferno.

Yep but there is some debate on if that is his origin or not.

If your talking about Cernune and Cernunnos... yeah I know but come on they're just too close.
If your talking about the red devil and the pitch fork... I was pretty sure it was DI.

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:08 am**

The Red Devil originates from the dark ages when they adapted the imagery of the goat demon (I forget his name off the top of my head, starts with B) in pagan ritual. The God was often worshiped by witches and tied to the goats-head (upside down pentagram.) Balfal, or something like that? It'd been years since I studied this so forgive me if I am off on the name.

Anyway, around the time of the witch hunts this image made it into popular culture at the time, receiving the most notoriety in an image drawn depicting the creature weaving what we would come to know as Crop Circles. At the time they were supposedly woven by the Devil and because that image was used it stuck in peoples mind as the devil. The earliest depiction of the the Red Devil/Satan appears in the Mallious Mallifacrum. Thats all I remember without breaking out ye old occult library.

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:10 am**

Nightmask wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Akashic Soldier wrote:Satan is the demon of the firmament and of earthly temptations.
Lucifer is the morning star, first of the fallen.

Over time they were blended into the same entity by poor education and teaching but they are two very different creatures.

Lucifer is also not a red guy with horns and goal legs and a pitch fork, he is the most beautiful man you can ever possibly imagine.

He was more perfect than any of the other Seraphim and any being on Creation second in station and perfection only to God. After the fall Satan became bitter and twisted, sadistic and driven to drive men to destruction because God offers them salvation while condemning Lucifer and the fallen (as they have no free will or soul of their own) to the finite. But nowhere does it say he is a hideous monster. So yeah, as far as we know the King of Hell (which is Earth) is the most beautiful and graceful being on this plane of existence.

Is it any wonder people flock to commercialism and cling to material things?

What could possibly be better or more wonderful than all that is here and now?

I really have to wonder how creatures without free will could rebel, since rebelling requires one to act contrary to orders which something without free will cannot do. So they must have free will otherwise they couldn't rebel and if they can't rebel they can't fall.

I'd like to see the verse that states that angels don't have free will.

Just noting the contradiction in Akashic's statement that all the fallen have no free will, when free will is a requirement to fall because you have to be capable of saying 'no' to defy God and fall. If the main fallen can defy God when called upon to bow to God's creation and the rest choose to follow him over God then they must have free will just like God's other creation. At worst you just see it that God was extra displeased with them defying him since Mankind has lived in the flesh whereas the angels have all lived on the higher plane with God and knew far better the cost of breaking the rules.

Oh, yeah yeah. I wasn't saying I wanted to see the verse from you. I was trying to agree with you. I want to see where he gets that from. I also disagree with his statement that Satan is angry because mankind has salvation but it isn't offered to him. It sounds like he got some of his ideas from J.M. Linsner's "Dawn" series (interesting read but far more Wiccan than Christian). The thing is even Satan is offered salvation but his sinful pride would never allow him to repent.

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:17 am**

Akashic Soldier wrote:The Red Devil originates from the dark ages when they adapted the imagery of the goat demon (I forget his name off the top of my head, starts with B) in pagan ritual. The God was often worshiped by witches and tied to the goats-head (upside down pentagram.) Balfal, or something like that? It'd been years since I studied this so forgive me if I am off on the name.

Anyway, around the time of the witch hunts this image made it into popular culture at the time, receiving the most notoriety in an image drawn depicting the creature weaving what we would come to know as Crop Circles. At the time they were supposedly woven by the Devil and because that image was used it stuck in peoples mind as the devil. The earliest depiction of the the Red Devil/Satan appears in the Mallious Mallifacrum. Thats all I remember without breaking out ye old occult library.

Starts with a sunglasses emote??

you mean Baal? Baal wasn't red. Baal simply means lord in Hebrew and could refer to any number of pagan gods that the ancient Hebrew people regularly adopted durring their frequent periods of religious rebellion.

Weaving a crop circle... uh... okay. Don't you mean Mallifactorum?

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:18 am**

Zer0 Kay wrote:Oh, yeah yeah. I wasn't saying I wanted to see the verse from you. I was trying to agree with you. I want to see where he gets that from. I also disagree with his statement that Satan is angry because mankind has salvation but it isn't offered to him. It sounds like he got some of his ideas from J.M. Linsner's "Dawn" series (interesting read but far more Wiccan than Christian). The thing is even Satan is offered salvation but his sinful pride would never allow him to repent.

Because the world angel is a was translated from Elohim which as you know means.. well blah blah blah. Sorry I missed this question earlier, I didn't see it. As for a specific verse I remember content and struggle with specific verses but if I recall correctly there is no verse saying that angels do not have free will but there should be a verse about humanity being the greatest of God's creatures and something mentioned around the time that the apostles are filled with the fire of the Holy Spirit. I actually started reading John against last week because my biblical fuu had gotten rusty so this is a good reason for me to go back over the book again.

That said, no one should take my word for it. Go look into these things yourself, seek the truth, find where the hands have men have robbed us of biblical truth and seek, seek, seek! The truth is out there for those who look for it.

EDIT: Added

Zer0 Kay wrote:Starts with a sunglasses emote?? you mean Baal? Baal wasn't red. Baal simply means lord in Hebrew and could refer to any number of pagan gods that the ancient Hebrew people regularly adopted durring their frequent periods of religious rebellion.

Weaving a crop circle... uh... okay. Don't you mean Mallifactorum?

Yes I did and no I didn't mean Baal. I am not an idiot. Everyone knows Baal. :lol:

Its like Berfemot, I believe?

Here is the image I had mentioned:

The Mowing Devil

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:30 am**

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Just noting the contradiction in Akashic's statement that all the fallen have no free will, when free will is a requirement to fall because you have to be capable of saying 'no' to defy God and fall. If the main fallen can defy God when called upon to bow to God's creation and the rest choose to follow him over God then they must have free will just like God's other creation. At worst you just see it that God was extra displeased with them defying him since Mankind has lived in the flesh whereas the angels have all lived on the higher plane with God and knew far better the cost of breaking the rules.

Oh, yeah yeah. I wasn't saying I wanted to see the verse from you. I was trying to agree with you. I want to see where he gets that from. I also disagree with his statement that Satan is angry because mankind has salvation but it isn't offered to him. It sounds like he got some of his ideas from J.M. Linsner's "Dawn" series (interesting read but far more Wiccan than Christian). The thing is even Satan is offered salvation but his sinful pride would never allow him to repent.

Oh I got that, I just have a tendency to respond and repeat myself for some reason at random, no idea why. I realize it can be confusing at times, one of those quirks I can't seem to eliminate. Oh well, we all have our little quirks.

I haven't read a bible in some time but I do seem to remember that the Fallen do have that chance of repenting (not surprising, why would God offer it to Man but not his first creations? ) but can't bring themselves to doing so. Depending on which Satan if it's the one that tortured Job then he's still doing his job, considering he and the rest of the fallen are still running around tempting humans and testing their faith, maybe because he just can't find it in him to choose not to and in some twisted way is still trying to prove himself to his creator.

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:39 am**

Zer0 Kay wrote:It sounds like he got some of his ideas from J.M. Linsner's "Dawn" series.

I've never read it. All of my views and conclusions have been reached through study, searching the scripture and many hours of research during my teenage years in an attempt to find which religion was right as I bounced around the globe.

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:49 am**

Akashic Soldier wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:It sounds like he got some of his ideas from J.M. Linsner's "Dawn" series.

I've never read it. All of my views and conclusions have been reached through study, searching the scripture and many hours of research during my teenage years in an attempt to find which religion was right as I bounced around the globe.

I did the same thing but I'm a atheist

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:58 am**

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:I did the same thing but I'm a atheist

I was raised an atheist but I couldn't rationalize it after learning about intelligent design and discovering the lies behind the science of evolution (That's right my spiritual quest began when I found out evolutionary science isn't supported by the facts :lol:

). Of course it was a long convoluted story but after much research and looking and trying to have some sort of hard fact to disprove my ex-girlfriend (who was an avid Christian and I hated) I had a moment where all of a sudden I noticed a pattern in the way the world and people work that I recognized instantly and I was like "Son of a..." and then tried classifying what it was using science only to find that science is often treated as a religion when it should be a tool and then...

Anyway, its a long story. In the end after much reading, praying, meditation, anger, cursing, and a frustrating amount of in my face coincidences one day I snapped, turned around, and said "FINE!" and then reluctantly set about doing His will as best I could while trying to better understand the mind of God and why everything was the way it was. I was originally more inclined to eastern religions (especially Hinduism) but yeah. Now I am a Christian. A blue-haired, leather punk rock Christian with no church who aimlessly wanders the country (sometimes the world) doing good wherever I can and fight evil lest God kick me in the ass for being neglectful of my responsibilities. I wish I were joking.

And in my spare time I act like a ****** and play Rifts.

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:06 am**

Akashic Soldier wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:I did the same thing but I'm a atheist

I was raised an atheist but I couldn't rationalize it after learning about intelligent design and discovering the lies behind the science of evolution (That's right my spiritual quest began when I found out evolutionary science isn't supported by the facts ). Of course it was a long convoluted story but after much research and looking and trying to have some sort of hard fact to disprove my ex-girlfriend (who was an avid Christian and I hated) I had a moment where all of a sudden I noticed a pattern in the way the world and people work that I recognized instantly and I was like "Son of a..." and then tried classifying what it was using science only to find that science is often treated as a religion when it should be a tool and then...

Anyway, its a long story. In the end after much reading, praying, meditation, anger, cursing, and a frustrating amount of in my face coincidences one day I snapped, turned around, and said "FINE!" and then reluctantly set about doing His will as best I could while trying to better understand the mind of God and why everything was the way it was. I was originally more inclined to eastern religions (especially Hinduism) but yeah. Now I am a Christian. A blue-haired, leather punk rock Christian with no church who aimlessly wanders the country (sometimes the world) doing good wherever I can and fight evil lest God kick me in the ass for being neglectful of my responsibilities. I wish I were joking.

And in my spare time I act like a ****** and play Rifts.

Everybody has to follow their own path in the world.

Posted: **Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:13 am**

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Everybody has to follow their own path in the world.

I know I am going to sound like a total ***** but sometimes I wish that I had company. Just once I wish someone could tell me something I didn't already know or teach me something or save me. If I have any "weakness" it is just that I don't have a very good relationship with Jesus. I know who he is and what he done but I don't get that warm fuzzy feeling everyone talks about and it gets lonely and thats not supposed to happen if you are tight with Christ apparently. I can see why everything is happening and why God does what he does and find out why easily enough and recognize Truth from lies but the personal relationship with God and the Holy Spirit is something I struggle with.

Anyways, this isn't Why is Akashic Soldier a Christian or What do you believe its Does God and Jesus exist in rifts earth? so lets get back to that topic before I go getting all esoteric again. :nh:

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