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Witchcraft wrote:I picked the Juicer Assassin out of Juicer Uprising but I haven't defended it as fervently as some others and their choices. I still think that the enhanced reflexes, a JA-11 / 12, some decent rolls -- he's gonna pick the other combatants apart. Especially someone like a Hyperion or a Mega. Maybe a Phaeton in a super-stealth PA suit? I dunno. I just can't see a Psi-slinger coming out on top. The Juicer is brutal...for the few years he's alive at any rate.

The psi slingers biggest benefit is not really in offense but defense. VS the most common hand weapons he is damn near immune changing them from MDC to SDC and thus pretty much ignorable. I think if a juicer has ballistic weapons he could probably take out a psi slinger just due to the auto dodging aspect of the juicer. If the juicer has an energy weapon he is probably better off charging hard to get into melee range to rip off the psi slingers arm and beat him to death with it. Not really a gunman move but given the speed/agility/ HTH prowess of a juicer I doubt any of the gunslingers would be able to stop the juicer from getting into hand to hand range. Once there a juicer of any varient would likely just rip any gun specialist into bloody pieces.

GenThunderfist wrote:

torkair wrote:

GenThunderfist wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Sorry but it states that they use Chi to make the gun fire sdc rounds as mdc so outside of china they aren't going to get that power or ability.

Regardless, the china 2 book has a section about chi/isp used outside of a china setting and none of them completely remove a power, they just reduce the effectiveness.

So, to that effect, the range would be reduced and the damage would be halved. So if you look at that 6D6 x 10 dual wielding senario, you would only be doing 3D6 x 10, or a max of 360 MDC a shot. Yeah, he really is ineffective outside of china. I don't know why I swear by him.

Ultimately the duration of the SDC to MDC ability is reduced by half. The ability is NOT doing the damage, the weapon is, the rate of damage is just altered. The Gun Master is broke as all hell when compared to just about ANY other class or race in the game, which is why that particular OCC is banned within my game group. As for disarming the Gun Master... Well that's why retractable lanyards were invented XD

@
The duration is instant, it instantly makes your weapon do md. And it's "damage" is based off the weapon, but it is the power that causes the damage. The power does Mdc, the gun is only capable of sdc, all the time. There is no way(short of ramjets) an sdc gun does md, hence only the power makes it md, meaning the damage of the attack originates in the psionic power, not the weapon. This gives it half damage. Without the power sdc. With the power Mdc.

No the damage would not be reduced. If the power does not have a damage listing for it then it is not affected, as it is an effect.
The power has no damage listed for it. Doesnt matter that it converts, it still has no damage and the conversion is not an actual listing of damage that the rule would be 'looking' for.

I dont think it is the power that is the problem, as Psi-Slinger has very simular power, but i haven't seen any other sdc weapons listed in the books that have insane amount of damage that those two weapons in Mercenaries has. Those guns prolly were not designed with the thought of how these particular coversion classes could abuse them, as it is a very drastic upgrade, very much OP for what i think was intended.

Take away those two weapons and use say, sdc guns from new west or pretty much anywhere else and the damage falls right in line with mdc equivalents.

Overall i think it is dumb that they had to change the rules between sdc and mdc weapons firing rates, and they should have normalized the rof feature so full melee bursts werent eating everything up.

kaid wrote:

Balabanto wrote:

Nether wrote:Yes they use Chi to activate the ability. The Gun Masters Chi outside of China is halved, which is nothing to do with how effective the ability is.

The rules specifically state what is affected and most of them reduce some of the bonuses they get by x or halve them.
This powers duration and range are halved, and sinse the power does not do any damage it isnt affected. There is no "halving" the effect. It isn't listed so you need to look up the rules and actually read them instead of throwing out OMG no goodz!!
If YOU want to take the power away that is fine, but that is Your house rule. But by that you might as well take away the psi slingers ability as well as it is almost the same thing and by using 3 rnd bursts they do double damage with pistols.

Uh, pistols aren't fully automatic unless it specifically says so under the weapon. Most pistols are semi-automatic, meaning you can't squeeze the trigger for a burst effect. In the real world, only the Glock and a couple of others actually do this.

Now what Rifts really needs are rules for "fanning the trigger." That would make more sense than a fully automatic revolver or energy pistol.

I think this is pretty much why the RUE changes happened. The firing rates now are pretty much as listed single or burst and not the old short/long burst/full clip method. Frankly it was silly doing more damage with a pistol or rifle than you could with basically heavy tank weapons.

Comletely agree Kaid, but i think it was more a fail to adjust the ROF rules. Eg they could have made 3-10 rnd burst do say x2 damage, but then a long burst could do wep damage to say a area of effect cone, and with long burst it would be x2 damage in that cone. This way you have small arms functioning like high ROF small arms instead of a auto pistol like the CS one doing 2d6x10 to that main battle tank.... which was just silly considering a bullet from that gun shouldnt have much effect on a tank.

Ninjabunny wrote:

Nether wrote:No the damage would not be reduced. If the power does not have a damage listing for it then it is not affected, as it is an effect.
The power has no damage listed for it. Doesnt matter that it converts, it still has no damage and the conversion is not an actual listing of damage that the rule would be 'looking' for.

I dont think it is the power that is the problem, as Psi-Slinger has very simular power, but i haven't seen any other sdc weapons listed in the books that have insane amount of damage that those two weapons in Mercenaries has. Those guns prolly were not designed with the thought of how these particular coversion classes could abuse them, as it is a very drastic upgrade, very much OP for what i think was intended.

Take away those two weapons and use say, sdc guns from new west or pretty much anywhere else and the damage falls right in line with mdc equivalents.

Overall i think it is dumb that they had to change the rules between sdc and mdc weapons firing rates, and they should have normalized the rof feature so full melee bursts werent eating everything up.

Ok so the fact the chi turns the bullets mdc means nothing to you? The chi makes the SDC bullet deal MDC, but the rule doesn't apply because The chi power deals no damage? OK see the flaw in the logic you are ignoring that CHI DOES THE WORK, it is an ability and per a overly stupid rule it is there for affected. You saying it is not is a house rule me saying it is affect is book rules.

I dont think you are understanding this at all and seem to think the rules work in other magical ways.

You start with saying how "Sorry but it states that they use Chi to make the gun fire sdc rounds as mdc so outside of china they aren't going to get that power or ability." which shows you are biased to how 'you' want it to work and not what is written. Your the one house rulinig it.

If a power or ability mentions damage than it has to have damage amount listed. This does not, it has nothing to do with a damage number. That is logic that you are not seeing and just making things up.

By your way of thinking you would be making every single effect from that book that is chi based be half effect. So like the toxic breath attack of the drunken master, you would rule the effect is 'half' damage because it is damage when it clearly is not.

Again, if the two guns from mercenaries did not exist and players had to choose other sdc guns, I would be willing to bet you wouldnt care one iota about the ability as it would be doing as much damage as someone using a md gun.

The two mercenaries sdc guns do far more damage than any other Rifts sdc gun i have found.

Even if you house rule that the ability is half 'effect' in your games, it is still a OP damage based on the guns. So each SMG that can be dual wielded is doing 3d6x10/2 per gun. So dual wielding means the two guns per attack are inflicting 3d6x10.

Then lets add explosive ammo to this gun which now triples the damage. So now you have each gun doing 9d6x10/2 or total 9d6x10 per attack.

Now lets look at a Psi Slinger using one of the two guns i keep mentioning from this book, the MP-10. It does 3d, then add in explosive ammo and now it does 9d per bullet. If he can get it modified to only do 3 rnd bursts which should be doable, now he is doing 18d6 per single shot. (WP Pistol does double damage on 3 rnd burst, not sure how they decided that but its in the RUE)

Again i think you are coming so aggressive at my responses because of how game breaking this damage can be, but as i said, take away the two guns and there is no more glaring problem here. The power is fine.

FQScout wrote:Out of the choices listed above wich OCC do you think would come out on top and why?

After going over the list threw the books, I've come to my train of thought that no gun slinger in any book is as deadly as the Gun Master (china 2.)

Couple things have made my decision rather easily for me. After reading that they can do the following ..

1) - Turn SDC rounds into MDC rounds .. this is huge no matter how you want to look at it this alone would be cause for serious concern when going up against any type of gun slinger all by it self ..

2) - Fire Broken Gun .. Another instant game changer in the hands of some one who can duel wield these badboys .. so now not only is this person able to fire broken / busted down weapons .. but can in fact fire their sdc rounds , and turn them itno MD rounds !!

3) - Create Bullets in Weapon, This is absolutely huge .. now he can take a broken down unloaded sdc wep and create its own rounds .. which are MD btw ..

4) - DODGE BULLETS !!! This power/ability in any gun fight is beyond powerful its flat out a game changer ..

5) - Teleport Guns. This means that any 2 guns he owns up to 10 miles away .. can be teleported directly into his hands .. that means this guy is literally NEVER with out weps ..

All these combined in my personal estimation to establish the Gun Master as thee preeminent gun slinger out of those mentioned.

Shinitenshi wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

FQScout wrote:Out of the choices listed above wich OCC do you think would come out on top and why?

After going over the list threw the books, I've come to my train of thought that no gun slinger in any book is as deadly as the Gun Master (china 2.)

Couple things have made my decision rather easily for me. After reading that they can do the following ..

1) - Turn SDC rounds into MDC rounds .. this is huge no matter how you want to look at it this alone would be cause for serious concern when going up against any type of gun slinger all by it self ..

2) - Fire Broken Gun .. Another instant game changer in the hands of some one who can duel wield these badboys .. so now not only is this person able to fire broken / busted down weapons .. but can in fact fire their sdc rounds , and turn them itno MD rounds !!

3) - Create Bullets in Weapon, This is absolutely huge .. now he can take a broken down unloaded sdc wep and create its own rounds .. which are MD btw ..

4) - DODGE BULLETS !!! This power/ability in any gun fight is beyond powerful its flat out a game changer ..

5) - Teleport Guns. This means that any 2 guns he owns up to 10 miles away .. can be teleported directly into his hands .. that means this guy is literally NEVER with out weps ..

All these combined in my personal estimation to establish the Gun Master as thee preeminent gun slinger out of those mentioned.

Sure they are awesome in China, outside of China, not so much. Outside of China all their abilities are reduced so they are not quite so awesome.

Reduced or not .. No other gunslinger can teleport their weapons to them .. or dodge bullets .. or shoot empty wepons ..

Reduced or not .. Gun Master is thee preeminent Slinger I've seen / read about to date ..

And 1 more thing to everyone who wants to debate this or that ..

Fact of the matter is the original poster never said .. at their worst ..

So for all you guys on here saying his powers are reduced this an reduced that .. fact of the matter is that the OP never asked at its weakest ..

He asked which is thee best .. Best clearly stating at the post peak performance, and this is hands down the Gun Master.

Shinitenshi wrote:

Lenwen wrote:And 1 more thing to everyone who wants to debate this or that ..

Fact of the matter is the original poster never said .. at their worst ..

So for all you guys on here saying his powers are reduced this an reduced that .. fact of the matter is that the OP never asked at its weakest ..

He asked which is thee best .. Best clearly stating at the post peak performance, and this is hands down the Gun Master.

Of course a Gun Master is the best in China. No one is saying at their weakest, we are just stating that outside of China the Gun Master would not be the best.

I'd hazard a debate about that as well ..

I've already pointed out all thier best features, and unless some where in the text it states all those very things I pointed out .. disappear completely ..

Gun Master is the big badass in this grp ..

Shinitenshi wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Shinitenshi wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

FQScout wrote:Out of the choices listed above wich OCC do you think would come out on top and why?

After going over the list threw the books, I've come to my train of thought that no gun slinger in any book is as deadly as the Gun Master (china 2.)

Couple things have made my decision rather easily for me. After reading that they can do the following ..

1) - Turn SDC rounds into MDC rounds .. this is huge no matter how you want to look at it this alone would be cause for serious concern when going up against any type of gun slinger all by it self ..

2) - Fire Broken Gun .. Another instant game changer in the hands of some one who can duel wield these badboys .. so now not only is this person able to fire broken / busted down weapons .. but can in fact fire their sdc rounds , and turn them itno MD rounds !!

3) - Create Bullets in Weapon, This is absolutely huge .. now he can take a broken down unloaded sdc wep and create its own rounds .. which are MD btw ..

4) - DODGE BULLETS !!! This power/ability in any gun fight is beyond powerful its flat out a game changer ..

5) - Teleport Guns. This means that any 2 guns he owns up to 10 miles away .. can be teleported directly into his hands .. that means this guy is literally NEVER with out weps ..

All these combined in my personal estimation to establish the Gun Master as thee preeminent gun slinger out of those mentioned.

Sure they are awesome in China, outside of China, not so much. Outside of China all their abilities are reduced so they are not quite so awesome.

Reduced or not .. No other gunslinger can teleport their weapons to them .. or dodge bullets .. or shoot empty wepons ..

Reduced or not .. Gun Master is thee preeminent Slinger I've seen / read about to date ..

Psi-Slingers don't need guns.

A Gun Master is not able to teleport guns until 7th level, and then it's within line of sight and distance is halved outside of China.

They can not dodge bullets until 9th level, his dodge and parry bonuses are reduced by half and he has to see the attack aimed at him.

Outside of China Gun Masters lose half their perm ISP base, half their range, half their damage, 30% of MDC from MMA, 1 point from all their combat bonuses, 1 action for characters over level 6 and if applicable half their PPE.

So yes inside of China Gun Masters can't be beat. Outside of China unless they are really high levels they are on par with Gunslingers and Psi-Slingers.

Did you actually read any of the 'outside of china' rules? Oh wait you posted them, then you would see that most of them barely affect anything Lenwen said in his post let alone really not hampering the Gun Master very much in the short term fight.

So he loses a lil bit of combat bonus, his range and duration reduction affect what, 2-3 powers he listed? And i am guessing you are talking about TK Guns and not what Lenwen mentioned of Teleport Guns, both of which are two different effects, as the Teleport one mentioned does not require LOS, and range is reduced to 5 miles / per lvl. So if he has a vehicle like a hover cycle or something that chances are he stores some guns in it, which prolly wont be that far away.

And yes some of these abilities are of higher level, but the OP didnt say what level they were at.

Dodge Bullets is nice, but even better at level 1 is if you take dog boxing which gives you side flip, which is a hybrid auto dodge. I mentioned this above already but no one likes to read so here it is again, side flip on a successful dodge does not use a action, and on a failed dodge it uses an action but the gun master only takes HALF DAMAGE! That means most of his actions are going to attacks while say Psi slinger has to burn some on dodge or with commando auto dodge he's keeping pace with the exception of HALF damage.

Then there is the smg from mercenaries which by the rules a GM would be just obliterating everything. Add explosive ammo to the mix and even glitterboys will wish they had a built in escape pod.

Now the thing for myself though, is the description of the Psi Slinger says the rare elite of them are Psi Stalker racially that are Psi Slingers. I always thought that sounded cool even if it is weird to how you would build that. The GM though seems to take the art of fighting with guns to the nth degree at the cost of all else.

The way I see it.

the best out of those listed point blank , Gun Master ..

The fact that anyone has to point to him being "reduced" outside of China as thee only viable means that any of the other Gun slinger's have a even chance to down him clearly shows me that I am right.

This is how I see it. Gun Master is thee badest mofo in this list, the mear fact that his abilities/powers are reduced, when not in china is thee only way any of the other's have a legit chance against him is just badass by itself ..

Gun Master is just plane ol evil !

Guns schmuns. While you gunslingers and gun masters bicker, my hyperion juicer just embedded vibro-deadballs into each eye socket while backflipiing off the back of a hovercycle and eating a burrito.

Alright, I'm not going to bother quoting because I swear I have read this nine times in this forum.
The chi power that allows you to do MD with your SD gun should not be looked at as a conversion of power. That's not how it is meant. The chi power is what allows the gun to do MD. The power's damage is based off of the gun you are using, hence it has a damge rating, but there are so many different guns that it varies so much and it is just easier to write that you use the SD of the gun and do a straight move to MD. So yes, it does get effected by the Outside of China rules and the damage is halved.

Next, I know this has been answered but I want to restate it, teleporting your gun does not need line of sight. It specifically states in the power that you just need to know where the gun is located, not that you have to physically see it.

Another note, I don't remember who said this, and I am trying to write this quickly so I don't have time to check, but SD guns put you far beyond the range of MD guns when you change the damge into MD. I had a canon handgun. It was a simple .45 ACP that I found the stats for in the Compendium of Contemorary Weapons, a canonical source produced by none other than Palladium. The initaial damge is 4D6 SDC, which puts it around 1D6 higher than most MD guns (Which are around 3D6 MD), then you can get custom bullets, which are noted as costing double the normal price. With custom bullets I was able to easily pump up the gun to 1D6X10 SD which puts it far beyond the damage range of standard energy handguns. And that's just the handguns, a Gun Master is able to use any modern weapon he feels like, and dual wield them all. I hate to say it, but I don't really care if you had energy pistols out of Phase World with your Psi-Slinger, simply cracking open a single compendium will net you ridiculous amounts of damage with the Gun Master. All of those guns are readily available because they are SD, and if you look into GAW they will give you prices for bullets for each and for the type of gun. My bullets only cost around 200cr for a box of 50. So, I really don't understand how you can call sd fire arms comparable to their md counterparts. Just look at some of them and you will see that that's not true at all.

Finally, and this will be my only quote this time because...well you'll see

Looonatic wrote: Guns schmuns. While you gunslingers and gun masters bicker, my hyperion juicer just embedded vibro-deadballs into each eye socket while backflipiing off the back of a hovercycle and eating a burrito.

No, if you were to actually read both of the OCCs that you said you killed you would know that pretty much both of them would kill you. I have to admit, the regular 'Slinger might have a hard time, maybe winning 3/10 fights. But if you saw how many apm that a Gun Master could have, before adding in any skills you might have selected yourself, plus the amount of damage he can do in a single shot, plus the fact that he too can --you guessed it--auto dodge, your poor Juicer wouldn't know what hit him. So next time make sure you are about to take on an actual "Squishy" before you become a "Grease Spot"

GenThunderfist wrote:Finally, and this will be my only quote this time because...well you'll see

Looonatic wrote: Guns schmuns. While you gunslingers and gun masters bicker, my hyperion juicer just embedded vibro-deadballs into each eye socket while backflipiing off the back of a hovercycle and eating a burrito.

No, if you were to actually read both of the OCCs that you said you killed you would know that pretty much both of them would kill you. I have to admit, the regular 'Slinger might have a hard time, maybe winning 3/10 fights. But if you saw how many apm that a Gun Master could have, before adding in any skills you might have selected yourself, plus the amount of damage he can do in a single shot, plus the fact that he too can --you guessed it--auto dodge, your poor Juicer wouldn't know what hit him. So next time make sure you are about to take on an actual "Squishy" before you become a "Grease Spot"

Yeah, good luck with that auto dodge. As for apm, you gotta win an initiative check first, buddy.

Shinitenshi wrote:Outside of China Gun Masters lose half their perm ISP base, half their range, half their damage, 30% of MDC from MMA, 1 point from all their combat bonuses, 1 action for characters over level 6 and if applicable half their PPE.

Just because their bonuses are reduced doesn't mean they aren't bonuses...

A level 15 Gun Master has the following offensive bonuses over and above the other Shooters without using a single ISP point: +6 attacks, +3 strike and +150% range.
Outside of China, they are reduced to +5 attacks, +2 strike and +150% range.

The outside of China penalties do very little to close the gap and the gap in skill is absolutely massive.
Those are just the statistical bonuses, other ridiculously game-breaking abilities like dual-wielding Rifles, having an MDC skin graft and dodging bullets are available to the Gun-Master in or out of China.

People keep mentioning the outside of china penalties as if it matters. Marginally reducing a bonus doesn't stop it from being a bonus unless the other OCCs share those bonuses. They don't.

Looonatic wrote:

GenThunderfist wrote:Finally, and this will be my only quote this time because...well you'll see

Looonatic wrote: Guns schmuns. While you gunslingers and gun masters bicker, my hyperion juicer just embedded vibro-deadballs into each eye socket while backflipiing off the back of a hovercycle and eating a burrito.

No, if you were to actually read both of the OCCs that you said you killed you would know that pretty much both of them would kill you. I have to admit, the regular 'Slinger might have a hard time, maybe winning 3/10 fights. But if you saw how many apm that a Gun Master could have, before adding in any skills you might have selected yourself, plus the amount of damage he can do in a single shot, plus the fact that he too can --you guessed it--auto dodge, your poor Juicer wouldn't know what hit him. So next time make sure you are about to take on an actual "Squishy" before you become a "Grease Spot"

Yeah, good luck with that auto dodge. As for apm, you gotta win an initiative check first, buddy.

Hey Loony, gotta say i enjoyed the comment and it was very juiceresque of you.. but more serious and that is a big BUT,

your 2d4 vibro deadball isnt going to do much, heck it wouldnt even get thru the GM demonskin armor. Let alone a GM could just give you initiative or you win it, doesnt matter because the retaliation is gonna hurt you a whole lot more than some deadballs to the face.

Nether wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

GenThunderfist wrote:Finally, and this will be my only quote this time because...well you'll see

Looonatic wrote: Guns schmuns. While you gunslingers and gun masters bicker, my hyperion juicer just embedded vibro-deadballs into each eye socket while backflipiing off the back of a hovercycle and eating a burrito.

No, if you were to actually read both of the OCCs that you said you killed you would know that pretty much both of them would kill you. I have to admit, the regular 'Slinger might have a hard time, maybe winning 3/10 fights. But if you saw how many apm that a Gun Master could have, before adding in any skills you might have selected yourself, plus the amount of damage he can do in a single shot, plus the fact that he too can --you guessed it--auto dodge, your poor Juicer wouldn't know what hit him. So next time make sure you are about to take on an actual "Squishy" before you become a "Grease Spot"

Yeah, good luck with that auto dodge. As for apm, you gotta win an initiative check first, buddy.

Hey Loony, gotta say i enjoyed the comment and it was very juiceresque of you.. but more serious and that is a big BUT,

your 2d4 vibro deadball isnt going to do much, heck it wouldnt even get thru the GM demonskin armor. Let alone a GM could just give you initiative or you win it, doesnt matter because the retaliation is gonna hurt you a whole lot more than some deadballs to the face.

How do you armor an eyeball?

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Nether wrote:

Looonatic wrote:
Yeah, good luck with that auto dodge. As for apm, you gotta win an initiative check first, buddy.

Hey Loony, gotta say i enjoyed the comment and it was very juiceresque of you.. but more serious and that is a big BUT,

your 2d4 vibro deadball isnt going to do much, heck it wouldnt even get thru the GM demonskin armor. Let alone a GM could just give you initiative or you win it, doesnt matter because the retaliation is gonna hurt you a whole lot more than some deadballs to the face.

How do you armor an eyeball?

Well unless you have sharpshooting: vibro-deadball, you can't accurately aim for a target that small on a human being in ranged combat. The best you are going to get is a called shot to the head.

Thrown projectile weapons are considered melee combat.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:How do you armor an eyeball?

Well unless you have sharpshooting: vibro-deadball, you can't accurately aim for a target that small on a human being in ranged combat. The best you are going to get is a called shot to the head.

Even if you had .. at ranged combat is what I would expect to see is a head shot. Called of course.. else nothing.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

GenThunderfist wrote:Finally, and this will be my only quote this time because...well you'll see

Looonatic wrote: Guns schmuns. While you gunslingers and gun masters bicker, my hyperion juicer just embedded vibro-deadballs into each eye socket while backflipiing off the back of a hovercycle and eating a burrito.

No, if you were to actually read both of the OCCs that you said you killed you would know that pretty much both of them would kill you. I have to admit, the regular 'Slinger might have a hard time, maybe winning 3/10 fights. But if you saw how many apm that a Gun Master could have, before adding in any skills you might have selected yourself, plus the amount of damage he can do in a single shot, plus the fact that he too can --you guessed it--auto dodge, your poor Juicer wouldn't know what hit him. So next time make sure you are about to take on an actual "Squishy" before you become a "Grease Spot"

Yeah, good luck with that auto dodge. As for apm, you gotta win an initiative check first, buddy.

Autododging gunfire is certainly much more difficult than melee attacks, plus you have to take into account the speed at which your hovercycle is travelling.

I did. My 7th level Hyperion Juicer gets to the best of my figuring a +16 to strike with a thrown deadball. As for autododging gunfire, I suspect that will be easier when the shooter has only one eye.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:
How do you armor an eyeball?

Well unless you have sharpshooting: vibro-deadball, you can't accurately aim for a target that small on a human being in ranged combat. The best you are going to get is a called shot to the head.

Thrown projectile weapons are considered melee combat.

No, throwing a weapon is considered ranged combat. Using a thrown weapon in melee combat is melee combat. That's why throwing knives, spears, and other ancient projectile weapons all have a range listed in the book. see page 328 of RUE for additional details.

Looking it up now. In the meantime, show me where it says that body parts smaller than the head cannot be targeted. Rifter 30 pg 42 assigns a called shot of 17 or higher to hit an eye.

Edit: I stand corrected. A thrown attack is indeed considered a ranged attack, not melee. But I don't see where it limits the size of the target.

Looonatic wrote:Looking it up now. In the meantime, show me where it says that body parts smaller than the head cannot be targeted. Rifter 30 pg 42 assigns a called shot of 17 or higher to hit an eye.

No rifter material is canon ..

Unless it has the big bold black letters that state its canon.

And with out those .. any rifter you attempt to use in a canon debate is meaningless.

GenThunderfist wrote:Alright, I'm not going to bother quoting because I swear I have read this nine times in this forum.
The chi power that allows you to do MD with your SD gun should not be looked at as a conversion of power. That's not how it is meant. The chi power is what allows the gun to do MD. The power's damage is based off of the gun you are using, hence it has a damge rating, but there are so many different guns that it varies so much and it is just easier to write that you use the SD of the gun and do a straight move to MD. So yes, it does get effected by the Outside of China rules and the damage is halved.

Another note, I don't remember who said this, and I am trying to write this quickly so I don't have time to check, but SD guns put you far beyond the range of MD guns when you change the damge into MD. I had a canon handgun. It was a simple .45 ACP that I found the stats for in the Compendium of Contemorary Weapons, a canonical source produced by none other than Palladium. The initaial damge is 4D6 SDC, which puts it around 1D6 higher than most MD guns (Which are around 3D6 MD), then you can get custom bullets, which are noted as costing double the normal price. With custom bullets I was able to easily pump up the gun to 1D6X10 SD which puts it far beyond the damage range of standard energy handguns. And that's just the handguns, a Gun Master is able to use any modern weapon he feels like, and dual wield them all. I hate to say it, but I don't really care if you had energy pistols out of Phase World with your Psi-Slinger, simply cracking open a single compendium will net you ridiculous amounts of damage with the Gun Master. All of those guns are readily available because they are SD, and if you look into GAW they will give you prices for bullets for each and for the type of gun. My bullets only cost around 200cr for a box of 50. So, I really don't understand how you can call sd fire arms comparable to their md counterparts. Just look at some of them and you will see that that's not true at all.

Prolly me you are thinking of with the above,

Though the sdc>mdc "conversion" is definately not damage (no damage stat, and flavor text does not count) and nor would it be halved.

As for the sdc guns, i was not looking in the wep compendiums, just what i could find in rifts books for sdc guns. The merc books sdc guns though are far far stronger than any others i could find, which led me to believe that they were OP and not designed with conversion classes like GM/PS. Using explosive ammo with say 3 rnd burst auto pistols has got to be pretty crazy, but even a 4d6 sdc gun i am thinking is alot more "balanced" than the merc guns which have very high base damage. Well the pistol isnt as bad but the smg is crazy. But a 4d6 sdc auto pistol with explosive rounds would be doing 12d6x2. (3 rnd burst) This is what a psi slinger could be using.

I really wish someone 'official' or semi official could comment on this, as in is it the damage range intended for these classes or is it more than they were thinking. Just seems like the damage is way to good, like mini auto boomguns.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:I did. My 7th level Hyperion Juicer gets to the best of my figuring a +16 to strike with a thrown deadball. As for autododging gunfire, I suspect that will be easier when the shooter has only one eye.

If you weren't moving, sure thats all fine and dandy, but since you stated that you are traveling on the hovercycle you take penalties to strike dependent on how fast you and your target are travelling relative to each other. Plus a gun master could just shoot the hovercycle out from under you, leaving you a grease spot seeing as your hovercycle does not have the ability to autododge.

Even if he got off the first shot, why couldn't I autododge on my hovercycle(assuming it's controls had been modified for juicer reflexes)?

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:Well unless you have sharpshooting: vibro-deadball, you can't accurately aim for a target that small on a human being in ranged combat. The best you are going to get is a called shot to the head.

Thrown projectile weapons are considered melee combat.

No, throwing a weapon is considered ranged combat. Using a thrown weapon in melee combat is melee combat. That's why throwing knives, spears, and other ancient projectile weapons all have a range listed in the book. see page 328 of RUE for additional details.

Looking it up now. In the meantime, show me where it says that body parts smaller than the head cannot be targeted. Rifter 30 pg 42 assigns a called shot of 17 or higher to hit an eye.

Is that official material? I am not in possession of that rifter. The thrown weapon called shot in RUE says that a target such as weapon, hand, rope can be called but not small difficult shots such as a bullseye, an eye, or a finger. I make this distinction because sharpshooting and other marksmanship skills often make statements about how smaller and more difficult targets can be hit with reliability. I'm not sayings it's impossible that you can hit an eye, but I would restrict it to the pure chance of a Nat 20

WHere does it say that small difficult shots can't be made? What page?

It's listed as optional material, but the section on hit locations and it's effects is just an expansion of current rules, not a replacement of them.

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:Looking it up now. In the meantime, show me where it says that body parts smaller than the head cannot be targeted. Rifter 30 pg 42 assigns a called shot of 17 or higher to hit an eye.

No rifter material is canon ..

Unless it has the big bold black letters that state its canon.

And with out those .. any rifter you attempt to use in a canon debate is meaningless.

Fine. Then it's a 12 for a called shot.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:I did. My 7th level Hyperion Juicer gets to the best of my figuring a +16 to strike with a thrown deadball. As for autododging gunfire, I suspect that will be easier when the shooter has only one eye.

If you weren't moving, sure thats all fine and dandy, but since you stated that you are traveling on the hovercycle you take penalties to strike dependent on how fast you and your target are travelling relative to each other. Plus a gun master could just shoot the hovercycle out from under you, leaving you a grease spot seeing as your hovercycle does not have the ability to autododge.

Even if he got off the first shot, why couldn't I autododge on my hovercycle(assuming it's controls had been modified for juicer reflexes)?

Because the juicers ability to autododge comes from their tenacity in ducking and weaving out of the way of attacks. So you can autododge your attacks, but your hovercycle isn't capable of reaccting or manuevering that fast without ridicules modifications that may even be out of the limits of earth tech.

Yet there are vehicles that have it built-in such as the Tarantula combat jump bike and the Icarus flight system. The Phaeton Juicer can auto-dodge with ANY vehicle faster than 60mph.

JUicer Uprising specifies that vehicles like the Tarantula are a market niche created in response to juicers having vehicles modified for similar abilities on their own. It's certainly not out of the realm of Earth-tech if a decent mechanic can do it.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

WHere does it say that small difficult shots can't be made? What page?

It's listed as optional material, but the section on hit locations and it's effects is just an expansion of current rules, not a replacement of them.

Like I said, I am personnelly making this distinction. It comes from the fact that the game makes a significant effort to note the difference in skill between a sharpshooter and a normal character. I don't know of anything that says that an eye is or is not definitively to small to hit. I just assume it is rather unlikely considering it is roughly 2-3x smaller than the other targets listed under called shot not to mention that eyes are sunken into the skull in such a way as to kee foreign objects out (especially round objects larger than the eye socket).

Even then this is assuming you make within range of a throw intact, hes not wearing a helmet, and you aren't travelling so fast that you would miss on pretty much everything except a nat 20.

Why nat 20? DOes skill play no factor whatsoever? Ever see the program 'Deadliest warrior'? In the Viking vs Samurai show, the samurai expert put an arrow into the eyeball of a target dummy wearing a norse helmet twice in a row. Did he roll two nat 20s?

Also, a Vibro-Deadball might be larger than an eye socket, but the vibro-spike protruding from it probably isn't.

Looonatic wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

WHere does it say that small difficult shots can't be made? What page?

It's listed as optional material, but the section on hit locations and it's effects is just an expansion of current rules, not a replacement of them.

Like I said, I am personnelly making this distinction. It comes from the fact that the game makes a significant effort to note the difference in skill between a sharpshooter and a normal character. I don't know of anything that says that an eye is or is not definitively to small to hit. I just assume it is rather unlikely considering it is roughly 2-3x smaller than the other targets listed under called shot not to mention that eyes are sunken into the skull in such a way as to kee foreign objects out (especially round objects larger than the eye socket).

Even then this is assuming you make within range of a throw intact, hes not wearing a helmet, and you aren't travelling so fast that you would miss on pretty much everything except a nat 20.

Why nat 20? DOes skill play no factor whatsoever? Ever see the program 'Deadliest warrior'? In the Viking vs Samurai show, the samurai expert put an arrow into the eyeball of a target dummy wearing a norse helmet twice in a row. Did he roll two nat 20s?

Also, a Vibro-Deadball might be larger than an eye socket, but the vibro-spike protruding from it probably isn't.

Both true.. but,

If you can surprise attack the opponent so he is completely unaware of you, i would allow it in my game no prob. But if he is aware of you then no dice. Not to mention that overall i find it takes away from the games combat which in most cases isnt designed to be one shot kills, but slow burn em down.

Once you have the called shots going, then you will find your group is always trying to do called shots to the hands. After one of two successful called shots they will be handless because even armor prot for a hand isnt that much.

In my game for general combat i will just use the main body or armor because if i allow players to do it, then i can do it and how many adventures you think the players will make it thru with both hands, then i move on to feet and knee caps. Then my groups would be full of partial borgs until i called shot the rest of thier meat, then they will be just full conversion assuming they made enough money to purchase a body by then, but ya not likely considering how many combats that would be. So same thing goes with headshots all the time.

Johnnycat93 wrote:Well obviously the Phaeton Juicer can keep his autododge, he is a specialized pliot class with all his training time and augmentations meant solely for that.
Also, I don't see anywhere on the Tarantula that allows a juicer to autododge attacks aimed at the bike.

In the Jump Bike Combat skill necessary to pilot it properly.

Johnnycat93 wrote:The PA and flight system both make sense for 2 reasons
1) they are human shaped and form fitting around the juicer, allowing him to duck and weave normally and,
2) the systems are specially designed to compensate for jucier reactions
Thus I see the autododge carrying over there

But you aren't running at him in a suit of power armor, you are on a hovercycle. Thus, I see no reason outside of the Phaeton that allows a juicer to move his hovercycle/fighter jet/unicycle/or giant chicken in the same way as he moves his body.

Customized Systems specially designed for Juicer reactions were the motivation to create the Taramtula, Rolling Thunder, Icarus and similar vehicles in the first place. There's no reason to assume that a vehicle can't be modified with the same extra control sensitivity that inspired them.

Nether wrote:Both true.. but,

If you can surprise attack the opponent so he is completely unaware of you, i would allow it in my game no prob. But if he is aware of you then no dice. Not to mention that overall i find it takes away from the games combat which in most cases isnt designed to be one shot kills, but slow burn em down.

Once you have the called shots going, then you will find your group is always trying to do called shots to the hands. After one of two successful called shots they will be handless because even armor prot for a hand isnt that much.

In my game for general combat i will just use the main body or armor because if i allow players to do it, then i can do it and how many adventures you think the players will make it thru with both hands, then i move on to feet and knee caps. Then my groups would be full of partial borgs until i called shot the rest of thier meat, then they will be just full conversion assuming they made enough money to purchase a body by then, but ya not likely considering how many combats that would be. So same thing goes with headshots all the time.

Excellent points. As a GM, the one-shotting villains isn't necessarily to be encouraged. It tends to lead to villains returning the favor.

But for the benefits of this my dic...er...gun is bigger than your gun debate, I thought it would be fun to throw a curveball to the discussion.

We haven't even debated the penalties of eating a burrito during all this.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:Yet there are vehicles that have it built-in such as the Tarantula combat jump bike and the Icarus flight system. The Phaeton Juicer can auto-dodge with ANY vehicle faster than 60mph.

JUicer Uprising specifies that vehicles like the Tarantula are a market niche created in response to juicers having vehicles modified for similar abilities on their own. It's certainly not out of the realm of Earth-tech if a decent mechanic can do it.

Johnnycat93 wrote:Well obviously the Phaeton Juicer can keep his autododge, he is a specialized pliot class with all his training time and augmentations meant solely for that.
Also, I don't see anywhere on the Tarantula that allows a juicer to autododge attacks aimed at the bike.

In the Jump Bike Combat skill necessary to pilot it properly.
The PA and flight system both make sense for 2 reasons
1) they are human shaped and form fitting around the juicer, allowing him to duck and weave normally and,
2) the systems are specially designed to compensate for jucier reactions
Thus I see the autododge carrying over there

But you aren't running at him in a suit of power armor, you are on a hovercycle. Thus, I see no reason outside of the Phaeton that allows a juicer to move his hovercycle/fighter jet/unicycle/or giant chicken in the same way as he moves his body.

Customized Systems specially designed for Juicer reactions were the motivation to create the Taramtula, Rolling Thunder, Icarus and similar vehicles in the first place. There's no reason to assume that a vehicle can't be modified with the same extra control sensitivity that inspired them.

There's also no reason to assume it can't

Tarantula is obviously not people shaped, and I fail to see how a Juicer short of the Phaeton would be able to move it, or any other vehicle like it, in such a way as to avoid an attack without using an action. It's not like specific pieces can move out of the way, the whole vehicle has to be moved. Thats assuming that you can even rig up a system that can handle that fast of reactions.

And the customized system IS installed, but it onlt gives the Juicer a bonus to piloting skills. No dodge bonus or anything like a dodge bonus and definetely no note about how a Juicers autododge carries over to the bike.

Nevertheless, a skilled pilot CAN autododge with a Tarantula jump bike. It's kind of hard to imagine a modified hovercycle not being able to match that.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Nether wrote:Both true.. but,

If you can surprise attack the opponent so he is completely unaware of you, i would allow it in my game no prob. But if he is aware of you then no dice. Not to mention that overall i find it takes away from the games combat which in most cases isnt designed to be one shot kills, but slow burn em down.

Once you have the called shots going, then you will find your group is always trying to do called shots to the hands. After one of two successful called shots they will be handless because even armor prot for a hand isnt that much.

In my game for general combat i will just use the main body or armor because if i allow players to do it, then i can do it and how many adventures you think the players will make it thru with both hands, then i move on to feet and knee caps. Then my groups would be full of partial borgs until i called shot the rest of thier meat, then they will be just full conversion assuming they made enough money to purchase a body by then, but ya not likely considering how many combats that would be. So same thing goes with headshots all the time.

Excellent points. As a GM, the one-shotting villains isn't necessarily to be encouraged. It tends to lead to villains returning the favor.

But for the benefits of this my dic...er...gun is bigger than your gun debate, I thought it would be fun to throw a curveball to the discussion.

We haven't even debated the penalties of eating a burrito during all this.

Well assuming you are pulling off all of this craziness with Combat Driving, the effects should be negligible.

I'd say a balance check ought to be made to see if I got any on my shirt.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:Nevertheless, a skilled pilot CAN autododge with a Tarantula jump bike. It's kind of hard to imagine a modified hovercycle not being able to match that.

Can you give me something better than the skill out of RUE? I see the two bonuses but that still doesn't convince me that a Juicer can move the vehicle like that. The bonuses could also stem from the juicer using the bike to move himself out of the way more effectively.

Why would you assume it only applied to the pilot and not the vehicle?

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:We haven't even debated the penalties of eating a burrito during all this.

Well assuming you are pulling off all of this craziness with Combat Driving, the effects should be negligible.

I'd say a balance check ought to be made to see if I got any on my shirt.

Burrito on shirt: thats -10 to all combat actions right there.

Oh, Metabolic Induced Voracity, what complications you cause!

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:Nevertheless, a skilled pilot CAN autododge with a Tarantula jump bike. It's kind of hard to imagine a modified hovercycle not being able to match that.

Can you give me something better than the skill out of RUE? I see the two bonuses but that still doesn't convince me that a Juicer can move the vehicle like that. The bonuses could also stem from the juicer using the bike to move himself out of the way more effectively.

Why would you assume it only applied to the pilot and not the vehicle?

Because it is a skill, often skills reflect a certain amount of time and training that benefits the pilot. (I think they have a saying about rifles in the army about something similar).

So seeing these bonuses I'm not entirely convinced that they are meant to be fully conveyed upon the vehicle in ways that I don't think it can move. If you can find something about a juicer being able to move a non-human shaped vehicle in such a way as to perform an autododg, that would be great.

A Phaeton Juicer can do it automatically with any and all UNmodified vehicles faster than 60mph. It's not unreasonable to assume that a specially skilled juicer pilot on a specially tuned vehicle can do it also.

I took the liberty of comparing the relevant aspects of the Gun Master vs Psi Slinger and this is how it came out:


Both are Quick Flex Aliens as they are the only race that gets bonuses with guns and therefore required in any combination of the

Deadliest Gun Man.
Maximum PP and PE on both cases and as many physical skills as both classes allow for.
Weapons include the most damaging Naruni Gear in existence in both cases.
Both level 15 as I am sure no-one would argue that a level 1 could be considered the "Deadliest Gun Man"
Gun Master stats are those experienced outside of China.
Other than OCC specific benefits, both cases are completely identical.

Psi Slinger:
PP: 25
PE: 39
HP: 129
SDC: 170
MDC: 0
Attacks with Gun: 10
Initiative +15
Ranged Strike +9
Aimed +4
Called -1
Autododge +13 (= -5 v close range gunfire)
Dodge +12 (= -5 v close range gunfire)
Skills: H2H: Commando, all RUE Physical skills but Acrobatics
Relevant Abilities:
TK Weapons: Can TK any linked weapons back into hands
Energy Weapons: Hald damage from all energy attacks
Sixth Sense: Awesomeness
Paired Weapons: Revolvers and Pistols
Critical Range: 17-20
Weapons: 2x NE-202, Damage: 1D6x10MD (Each) for an average of 70MD per attack.


Gun Master:
PP: 29
PE: 44
HP: 134
SDC: 236
MDC: 54
Attacks with Gun: 17
Initiative +8
Ranged Strike +10
Aimed +4
Called +0
Autododge +10 (= +5 v gunfire)
Side Flip +11 (= +5 v gunfire)
Dodge +13 (= +6 v gunfire)
Skills: H2H: Dog Boxing, all RUE Physical skills but Wrestling. Also Tumbling and Demon Wrestling
Relevant Abilities:
Paired Weapons: All Guns
Extended Range: +150% of weapon range
Telekinesis Guns: Can TK any unsecured, visable weapon into hands
Half Penalties for shooting blind
Dodge Bullets: Half bonuses to dodge but no other penalties
1D6 more speed
Critical Range: 19-20
Wounded Paw & Whine: Attacker is -1 to strike the Dog Boxer
Weapons: 2x NE-75H, Damage: 2D4x10+20MD (Each) for an average of 140MD per attack (halved to 70MD by the Psi-Slinger's energy

resistance)

Summary:
Defensively, the advantage has to go to the Gun Master.
Using his Wounded Paw stance and a Side Flip, he has to roll 3 points higher than the Slinger on a D20 to dodge a regular attack.

That is not an entirely unrealistic task. To dodge a called shot requires 2 points higher on a D20.
The slinger would have to roll 15 points higher on a D20 to dodge both a regular or called shot. That is far more unlikely.
The Gun Master can also withstand 55 more MD beyond their respective armor capacities.

Offensively, the advantage is more subjective.
They inflict the same damage per action but the Master has an extra 7 actions per melee.
The Master has both the speed and range advantage which opens the potential for kiting.
The Slinger however, has a significant initiative advantage.
The Slinger also has an increased critical threat range.
If they were shooting at anyone other than each other, the advantage would certainly fall to the Master as each attack of his would

do double the damage of the Slinger on average.


The bottom line is their abilities are fairly comparable under these conditions. Personally I think the Gun Master has the

advantage but the critical range and initiative bonuses of the Slinger could prove to be an advantage under the right conditions.
But these comparable conditions are achieved by stacking the odds in the Slinger's favour. The Gun Master is outside of China which

penalizes him, he is using energy weapons which work to the strengths of the Slinger, the Master is completely ignoring all of his

chi abilities and the racial autodoge bonuses stack with the abilities of the Slinger where-as they are useless to the Master.
When the conditions are stacked in the favour of the Slinger and the Slinger still struggles to compete with the Master, I think it

is obvious which is superior.

Nether wrote:

GenThunderfist wrote:Alright, I'm not going to bother quoting because I swear I have read this nine times in this forum.
The chi power that allows you to do MD with your SD gun should not be looked at as a conversion of power. That's not how it is meant. The chi power is what allows the gun to do MD. The power's damage is based off of the gun you are using, hence it has a damge rating, but there are so many different guns that it varies so much and it is just easier to write that you use the SD of the gun and do a straight move to MD. So yes, it does get effected by the Outside of China rules and the damage is halved.

Another note, I don't remember who said this, and I am trying to write this quickly so I don't have time to check, but SD guns put you far beyond the range of MD guns when you change the damge into MD. I had a canon handgun. It was a simple .45 ACP that I found the stats for in the Compendium of Contemorary Weapons, a canonical source produced by none other than Palladium. The initaial damge is 4D6 SDC, which puts it around 1D6 higher than most MD guns (Which are around 3D6 MD), then you can get custom bullets, which are noted as costing double the normal price. With custom bullets I was able to easily pump up the gun to 1D6X10 SD which puts it far beyond the damage range of standard energy handguns. And that's just the handguns, a Gun Master is able to use any modern weapon he feels like, and dual wield them all. I hate to say it, but I don't really care if you had energy pistols out of Phase World with your Psi-Slinger, simply cracking open a single compendium will net you ridiculous amounts of damage with the Gun Master. All of those guns are readily available because they are SD, and if you look into GAW they will give you prices for bullets for each and for the type of gun. My bullets only cost around 200cr for a box of 50. So, I really don't understand how you can call sd fire arms comparable to their md counterparts. Just look at some of them and you will see that that's not true at all.

Prolly me you are thinking of with the above,

Though the sdc>mdc "conversion" is definately not damage (no damage stat, and flavor text does not count) and nor would it be halved.

As for the sdc guns, i was not looking in the wep compendiums, just what i could find in rifts books for sdc guns. The merc books sdc guns though are far far stronger than any others i could find, which led me to believe that they were OP and not designed with conversion classes like GM/PS. Using explosive ammo with say 3 rnd burst auto pistols has got to be pretty crazy, but even a 4d6 sdc gun i am thinking is alot more "balanced" than the merc guns which have very high base damage. Well the pistol isnt as bad but the smg is crazy. But a 4d6 sdc auto pistol with explosive rounds would be doing 12d6x2. (3 rnd burst) This is what a psi slinger could be using.

I really wish someone 'official' or semi official could comment on this, as in is it the damage range intended for these classes or is it more than they were thinking. Just seems like the damage is way to good, like mini auto boomguns.

First of all, even if it was not "designed" to be used with a power boosting class doesn't mean that it can't be used, it's canon which means it works.However, I agree completely, the GM class is widely OP even with the penalties with being outside of china

Now to the topic at hand,

Rifts World Book 25 China 2, pg. 138 wrote: 3. Mystic Martial Art Power (special). The character has been initiated into the practice of Tao Jen Qiang, considered the ultimate mastery of fighting with guns. Form the perspective of the Gun Masters, this is the only fighting skill a "modern" warrior needs.

Rifts World Book 25 China 2, pg. 138 wrote: Channeling Chi to make the bullet/round of any gun, revolver, pistol, rifle, etc. become a Mega-Damage projectile...Mega-Damage is the same amount as the S.D.C ammunition, so if a bullet does 4D6 S.D.C it can be made to inflict 4D6 M.D I.S.P. Cost: Two per gun per melee round.

Rifts World Book 25 China 2, pg. 141 wrote: All Chi-based powers are diminished outside China....The following modifiers apply to all China characters who use Chi-based powers and abilities, including Mystic Martial Art Powers, anywhere eles on Rifts Earth (and most of the Megaverse for that matter).

Ok, so I think it is highly irresponsible of you to waive the need of basic text. The text is around 80% - 90% of the books and the stats and bonuses listed in bold print only give you a very small picture of a larger whole.
I just showed you the three quotes from the book that support the fact that the power is:
1. A Chi-based power
2. The damage from the gun is used as a basis for the attack power of the Chi ability
3. That, because it is a Chi-based power AND part of a Mystic Martial Art Power, it is defiantly subject to the Losing the Power of Chi modifiers.

The gun and projectile themselves have naught to do with the MD. It all stems from the Chi baby.

Johnnycat93 wrote:Flooper Vagabound right?

Maybe, Flooping does add an X-factor that can't be discounted .

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:Can you give me something better than the skill out of RUE? I see the two bonuses but that still doesn't convince me that a Juicer can move the vehicle like that. The bonuses could also stem from the juicer using the bike to move himself out of the way more effectively.

Why would you assume it only applied to the pilot and not the vehicle?

Because it is a skill, often skills reflect a certain amount of time and training that benefits the pilot. (I think they have a saying about rifles in the army about something similar).

So seeing these bonuses I'm not entirely convinced that they are meant to be fully conveyed upon the vehicle in ways that I don't think it can move. If you can find something about a juicer being able to move a non-human shaped vehicle in such a way as to perform an autododg, that would be great.

A Phaeton Juicer can do it automatically with any and all UNmodified vehicles faster than 60mph. It's not unreasonable to assume that a specially skilled juicer pilot on a specially tuned vehicle can do it also.

I'm still hesitant to agree without specific canon to back it up, I mean consider the consequences!
Can a Juicer autododge with a fighter jet? or a horse? or a battle cruiser?

A Phaeton Juicer can.

Johnnycat93 wrote:Does this apply to anyone with autododge? Like Commandos or Crazies?
How can you "duck and weave" a vehicle?

Crazies and anyone with superhuman reflexes, a specially tuned vehicle AND proficiency in that vehicle? Yes. Anyone else? No.

Johnnycat93 wrote:WHERE DOES THE MADNESS END?!

Where you least expect it.

Giant2005 wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:Flooper Vagabound right?

Maybe, Flooping does add an X-factor that can't be discounted .

I mean, put a pistol in one of their hands and we got everything going downhill for our intrepid gunmen, and one juicer on a hovercycle.

GenThunderfist wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:Flooper Vagabound right?

Maybe, Flooping does add an X-factor that can't be discounted .

I mean, put a pistol in one of their hands and we got everything going downhill for our intrepid gunmen, and one juicer on a hovercycle.

Even my hyperion juicer wouldn't mess with a Flooper!

He'd probably steal the burrito.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

A Phaeton Juicer can do it automatically with any and all UNmodified vehicles faster than 60mph. It's not unreasonable to assume that a specially skilled juicer pilot on a specially tuned vehicle can do it also.

I'm still hesitant to agree without specific canon to back it up, I mean consider the consequences!
Can a Juicer autododge with a fighter jet? or a horse? or a battle cruiser?

A Phaeton Juicer can.

Johnnycat93 wrote:Does this apply to anyone with autododge? Like Commandos or Crazies?
How can you "duck and weave" a vehicle?

Crazies and anyone with superhuman reflexes, a specially tuned vehicle AND proficiency in that vehicle? Yes. Anyone else? No.

Johnnycat93 wrote:WHERE DOES THE MADNESS END?!

Where you least expect it.

I'm just not seeing it, luckily it's not to particularly important whether or not the Juicer can autododge on a hovercycle, so I'm willing to let it lie

Chalk it up to personal (or more to the point, GM) preference. We're comfortably into speculation territory.

Ok just ran a test model of 50 battles.

Psi-Slinger vs Gun master. Both at maxed abilities and stats .. Psi-slinger won aprox 8 battles.. Gun Master wont 42 battles..

The two over riding abilities of the Gun Master can shining threw and exposed major deficiencies in the Psi-Slinger's abilities ..

1) - Gun master's ability to extend the range of his weapons. +10% range per lvl. Lvl 15 means +150% range of his weapons over that of the Psi-Slingers. This was something the Slinger could not overcome an what won the battle most of the time for the Gun Master.

2) - Gun Master's ability to teleport weapons into his hands. The Weapons in question were two pistol's who have mico nuke cells which had enabled the pistols to have as many as 220 rounds each .. (440 total rounds duel wielding) with more pistols ready to be teleported into his hands.

The ability to change the nature of the incoming damage was only a marginal use for the Slinger due to the insane amount of ammo the GM had at his use. How ever the ability to dodge bullets became the game changer for the GM when they closed ranks and got within each others weapon range.

So quick recap..

1) - Near unlimited ammo for the GM .. Coupled with the fact that the Slinger was unable to reload at all ..
2) - Ability to dodge bullets by the GM .. beat out the ability to lessen the damage taken by the Slinger.
3) - Range is what took the majority of the battles .. and the Gun Master's ability to out range his opponant ment he won many many many battles based off just this alone..

Edge - Gun Master, 42 wins 8 losses to the Slinger. In a test play.. My twin daughter's rolled each out each took the other's character an I GM'ed.

Hope this helps.

EDIT : PS- Best way to kill pesky Juicers .. explosive rounds .. they have a game changer in Autododge, but even they can not auto dodge explosions.

Lenwen wrote:Ok just ran a test model of 50 battles.

Psi-Slinger vs Gun master. Both at maxed abilities and stats .. Psi-slinger won aprox 8 battles.. Gun Master wont 42 battles..

The two over riding abilities of the Gun Master can shining threw and exposed major deficiencies in the Psi-Slinger's abilities ..

1) - Gun master's ability to extend the range of his weapons. +10% range per lvl. Lvl 15 means +150% range of his weapons over that of the Psi-Slingers. This was something the Slinger could not overcome an what won the battle most of the time for the Gun Master.

2) - Gun Master's ability to teleport weapons into his hands. The Weapons in question were two pistol's who have mico nuke cells which had enabled the pistols to have as many as 220 rounds each .. (440 total rounds duel wielding) with more pistols ready to be teleported into his hands.

The ability to change the nature of the incoming damage was only a marginal use for the Slinger due to the insane amount of ammo the GM had at his use. How ever the ability to dodge bullets became the game changer for the GM when they closed ranks and got within each others weapon range.

So quick recap..

1) - Near unlimited ammo for the GM .. Coupled with the fact that the Slinger was unable to reload at all ..
2) - Ability to dodge bullets by the GM .. beat out the ability to lessen the damage taken by the Slinger.
3) - Range is what took the majority of the battles .. and the Gun Master's ability to out range his opponant ment he won many many many battles based off just this alone..

Edge - Gun Master, 42 wins 8 losses to the Slinger. In a test play.. My twin daughter's rolled each out each took the other's character an I GM'ed.

Hope this helps.

I'm stunned the ability to convert MDC energy attacks to SDC wasn't more valuable.

Looonatic wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Ok just ran a test model of 50 battles.

Psi-Slinger vs Gun master. Both at maxed abilities and stats .. Psi-slinger won aprox 8 battles.. Gun Master wont 42 battles..

The two over riding abilities of the Gun Master can shining threw and exposed major deficiencies in the Psi-Slinger's abilities ..

1) - Gun master's ability to extend the range of his weapons. +10% range per lvl. Lvl 15 means +150% range of his weapons over that of the Psi-Slingers. This was something the Slinger could not overcome an what won the battle most of the time for the Gun Master.

2) - Gun Master's ability to teleport weapons into his hands. The Weapons in question were two pistol's who have mico nuke cells which had enabled the pistols to have as many as 220 rounds each .. (440 total rounds duel wielding) with more pistols ready to be teleported into his hands.

The ability to change the nature of the incoming damage was only a marginal use for the Slinger due to the insane amount of ammo the GM had at his use. How ever the ability to dodge bullets became the game changer for the GM when they closed ranks and got within each others weapon range.

So quick recap..

1) - Near unlimited ammo for the GM .. Coupled with the fact that the Slinger was unable to reload at all ..
2) - Ability to dodge bullets by the GM .. beat out the ability to lessen the damage taken by the Slinger.
3) - Range is what took the majority of the battles .. and the Gun Master's ability to out range his opponant ment he won many many many battles based off just this alone..

Edge - Gun Master, 42 wins 8 losses to the Slinger. In a test play.. My twin daughter's rolled each out each took the other's character an I GM'ed.

Hope this helps.

I'm stunned the ability to convert MDC energy attacks to SDC wasn't more valuable.

Its not that it was not valuble .. it saved the slinger's life quite a bit . But the fact remains he was still taking damage. And since this was a battle of slingers .. I did not allow Armor. So straight up as is 15th lvl powers only max stats .. weapons out of their books.

The abilities of the Gun Master were just too powerful to overcome for the slinger. who once they were out of ammo .. it was a slaughterfest .. and that more then anything sept the range of the Gun Master's weapons is what tipt the hand beyond anything the Slinger could bring to bere..

Also notice the micro mini missile .. The Slinger is able to convert the energy of the laser pistol but was not able to counter the missile . Which is what killed him quite often.

Looonatic wrote:I'm stunned the ability to convert MDC energy attacks to SDC wasn't more valuable.

That ability only works against attacks that inflict 30MD or less. It halves the damage from all other energy attacks.
Against a Gun Master dual-wielding Rifles, it is a safe bet that no damage will be converted to SDC but it will be halved if it is an energy weapon.
The problem is that Rifles already do double the damage of Pistols, so the best case scenario (for the Slinger) is that it reduces the Master's damage down to the same level that the Slinger himself is already inflicting. Worst case scenario is that the Master isn't even using energy weapons and the Slinger's ability does nothing to close the gap.

When it came to ranged attacks the Slinger was simply no match for the +150% range of the Gun Master. Who with pistols had ranges of 2,500ft .. up to 2.5 miles with the micro mini missiles..

And then they would close range .. to within something the slinger could attack back with and the slinger would attempt to use that nifty ability to reduce the damage inflicted, but once the Gun Master seen what was happening, he simply started to use the Micro Mini Missiles to more effect ..

In short .. the Slinger is just simply out classed as I've seen. And this is regaurdless of who won initiative.

The ability to dodge your opponant's fire vrs reduce it ..

The ability to out range your opponant's fire ..

The ability to have virtually unlimited ammo vrs your opponant's 6 shooters ..

All told I was surprised my daughter's slinger took 8 wins .. (couple of them came at the cost of other people/machines, but a wins a win..)

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Ok just ran a test model of 50 battles.

Psi-Slinger vs Gun master. Both at maxed abilities and stats .. Psi-slinger won aprox 8 battles.. Gun Master wont 42 battles..

The two over riding abilities of the Gun Master can shining threw and exposed major deficiencies in the Psi-Slinger's abilities ..

1) - Gun master's ability to extend the range of his weapons. +10% range per lvl. Lvl 15 means +150% range of his weapons over that of the Psi-Slingers. This was something the Slinger could not overcome an what won the battle most of the time for the Gun Master.

2) - Gun Master's ability to teleport weapons into his hands. The Weapons in question were two pistol's who have mico nuke cells which had enabled the pistols to have as many as 220 rounds each .. (440 total rounds duel wielding) with more pistols ready to be teleported into his hands.

The ability to change the nature of the incoming damage was only a marginal use for the Slinger due to the insane amount of ammo the GM had at his use. How ever the ability to dodge bullets became the game changer for the GM when they closed ranks and got within each others weapon range.

So quick recap..

1) - Near unlimited ammo for the GM .. Coupled with the fact that the Slinger was unable to reload at all ..
2) - Ability to dodge bullets by the GM .. beat out the ability to lessen the damage taken by the Slinger.
3) - Range is what took the majority of the battles .. and the Gun Master's ability to out range his opponant ment he won many many many battles based off just this alone..

Edge - Gun Master, 42 wins 8 losses to the Slinger. In a test play.. My twin daughter's rolled each out each took the other's character an I GM'ed.

Hope this helps.

I'm stunned the ability to convert MDC energy attacks to SDC wasn't more valuable.

Its not that it was not valuble .. it saved the slinger's life quite a bit . But the fact remains he was still taking damage. And since this was a battle of slingers .. I did not allow Armor. So straight up as is 15th lvl powers only max stats .. weapons out of their books.

The abilities of the Gun Master were just too powerful to overcome for the slinger. who once they were out of ammo .. it was a slaughterfest .. and that more then anything sept the range of the Gun Master's weapons is what tipt the hand beyond anything the Slinger could bring to bere..

SO the Gun Master had demon skin armor(despite being a quick-flex alien) and the Psi-slinger had no armor at all.

Looonatic wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Ok just ran a test model of 50 battles.

Psi-Slinger vs Gun master. Both at maxed abilities and stats .. Psi-slinger won aprox 8 battles.. Gun Master wont 42 battles..

The two over riding abilities of the Gun Master can shining threw and exposed major deficiencies in the Psi-Slinger's abilities ..

1) - Gun master's ability to extend the range of his weapons. +10% range per lvl. Lvl 15 means +150% range of his weapons over that of the Psi-Slingers. This was something the Slinger could not overcome an what won the battle most of the time for the Gun Master.

2) - Gun Master's ability to teleport weapons into his hands. The Weapons in question were two pistol's who have mico nuke cells which had enabled the pistols to have as many as 220 rounds each .. (440 total rounds duel wielding) with more pistols ready to be teleported into his hands.

The ability to change the nature of the incoming damage was only a marginal use for the Slinger due to the insane amount of ammo the GM had at his use. How ever the ability to dodge bullets became the game changer for the GM when they closed ranks and got within each others weapon range.

So quick recap..

1) - Near unlimited ammo for the GM .. Coupled with the fact that the Slinger was unable to reload at all ..
2) - Ability to dodge bullets by the GM .. beat out the ability to lessen the damage taken by the Slinger.
3) - Range is what took the majority of the battles .. and the Gun Master's ability to out range his opponant ment he won many many many battles based off just this alone..

Edge - Gun Master, 42 wins 8 losses to the Slinger. In a test play.. My twin daughter's rolled each out each took the other's character an I GM'ed.

Hope this helps.

I'm stunned the ability to convert MDC energy attacks to SDC wasn't more valuable.

Its not that it was not valuble .. it saved the slinger's life quite a bit . But the fact remains he was still taking damage. And since this was a battle of slingers .. I did not allow Armor. So straight up as is 15th lvl powers only max stats .. weapons out of their books.

The abilities of the Gun Master were just too powerful to overcome for the slinger. who once they were out of ammo .. it was a slaughterfest .. and that more then anything sept the range of the Gun Master's weapons is what tipt the hand beyond anything the Slinger could bring to bere..

SO the Gun Master had demon skin armor(despite being a quick-flex alien) and the Psi-slinger had no armor at all.

neither had armor, however .. 1 was able to dodge the other's attacks even if he chose to get close enough to allow the other to attack.