Invulnerability Major Power

[Killer Cyborg]

And what martial art teaches that jump kicks are good for anything besides demonstration?

Pretty much any martial art that teaches them, which is quite a few.
My personal experience, though, was with tae kwon do.
If you don't believe that jump kicks are useful when your opponent leaves you an opening that you can exploit with a slower-but-more-powerful attack, by all means make your case.

think "haymaker," not "reverse punch."

haymaker = desperation

Or it means that you're in the mounted position on a prone opponent, and can't rely on your hips and legs to generate the power you want.
Or your opponent is staggered.
Or if your opponent is off-balance and unable to properly defend.
Or your opponent isn't looking.
Or you're Muhammad Ali.

Anyone trained can generate similar power in less time without incurring all the vulnerability implied by a haymaker which means that you should only throw a haymaker if things are already going badly for you and you have no better options.

Or if things are going well for you, and you want to deliver a knock-out.

Usually this happens when you can't derive power from your lower body because you're off balance or don't have solid footing.

Yes, that is one of the times when it can come in handy.
So what are you trying to argue about...?

[Killer Cyborg]

jump kicks are good for closing distances and surprising your opponent. This is taught in every martial art that teaches the jump kick.

I hope that if I'm ever fighting for my life, that my opponent has received those instructions and attempts to follow them.

Out of curiosity, what style have you studied?

In general, Damian is right; jump kicks can be used for both of those things.
What he left out is that it tends to work best on untrained or poorly trained opponents, not well-trained martial artists.
You seem to be basing your views on sporting events where two people of roughly equal weight and training start a fight when a bell rings, but there are other kinds of combat, and most martial arts include any number of moves to be used against anything from a drunken civilian with no combat experience to an armored warrior with a sword or spear.

In my experience, if you're good at a jump kick, you can often surprise lower-level opponents by launching an immediate attack as soon as the sparring match begins. Even if your foot doesn't connect, it tends to put them on the defensive, and you can follow up with a flurry of other attacks once you've used the attack to close in.
Once I got green belt*, though, most opponents were able to adequately defend from this kind of attack.
Against a purple belt or above, you had a good chance of coming out behind from such attacks if you try to spring them on a ready opponent.

Another use of jump kicks, btw, is jumping out of the way of one attack while launching a counter-attack. This wouldn't work in Palladium rules, of course, but in real life it can be quite effective.
Again, mostly against lesser or distracted/disabled opponents.

If you're fighting ninjas, then yeah, pretty much never use a jump kick.
But if you're only ever fighting ninjas, then I'm pretty curious about what kind of life you're living.



*(The ranking system was white, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, red, black)

[Damian Magecraft]

jump kicks are good for closing distances and surprising your opponent. This is taught in every martial art that teaches the jump kick.

I hope that if I'm ever fighting for my life, that my opponent has received those instructions and attempts to follow them.

Out of curiosity, what style have you studied?

In general, Damian is right; jump kicks can be used for both of those things.
What he left out is that it tends to work best on untrained or poorly trained opponents, not well-trained martial artists.
You seem to be basing your views on sporting events where two people of roughly equal weight and training start a fight when a bell rings, but there are other kinds of combat, and most martial arts include any number of moves to be used against anything from a drunken civilian with no combat experience to an armored warrior with a sword or spear.

In my experience, if you're good at a jump kick, you can often surprise lower-level opponents by launching an immediate attack as soon as the sparring match begins. Even if your foot doesn't connect, it tends to put them on the defensive, and you can follow up with a flurry of other attacks once you've used the attack to close in.
Once I got green belt*, though, most opponents were able to adequately defend from this kind of attack.
Against a purple belt or above, you had a good chance of coming out behind from such attacks if you try to spring them on a ready opponent.

Another use of jump kicks, btw, is jumping out of the way of one attack while launching a counter-attack. This wouldn't work in Palladium rules, of course, but in real life it can be quite effective.
Again, mostly against lesser or distracted/disabled opponents.

If you're fighting ninjas, then yeah, pretty much never use a jump kick.
But if you're only ever fighting ninjas, then I'm pretty curious about what kind of life you're living.



*(The ranking system was white, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, red, black)

Actually it can catch Black Belts flatfooted too...
(who would use such a move on a highly trained combatant? My jumping side kick won me a few amateur tournaments that way )

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually it can catch Black Belts flatfooted too...
(who would use such a move on a highly trained combatant? My jumping side kick won me a few amateur tournaments that way )

Oh, it CAN... but it's kind of like how a Fool's Mate gambit can sometimes torpedo a skilled chess player- it's an exception, not a rule.
In general, it's a bad idea to use the move on anybody as skilled as you are or better.

[flatline]

jump kicks are good for closing distances and surprising your opponent. This is taught in every martial art that teaches the jump kick.

I hope that if I'm ever fighting for my life, that my opponent has received those instructions and attempts to follow them.

Out of curiosity, what style have you studied?

http://www.chineseboxing.com/Pages/curricula.html

Kai Sai Kung Fu is a synthesis created by Christopher Casey. I've personally done form work in Tai Chi Chuan (Chen large frame, Yang short form, and Chen sword form), Wa Lu (bridge art), Crown Eagle (Chin na), and Pakua Chang. The synthesis also includes Wing Chun, Hsing-i Chuan, Fukien White Crane, and Boxing so I have studied techniques from these, but no form work.

Conceptually, it's similar to Bruce Lee's synthesis. In fact, last I checked, two of Bruce Lee's senior students were on the CBII board.

In general, Damian is right; jump kicks can be used for both of those things.
What he left out is that it tends to work best on untrained or poorly trained opponents, not well-trained martial artists.

Just about any technique is effective against the untrained or poorly trained. But why would you dare to assume that your opponent isn't at least as trained as you? Why take the risk?

You seem to be basing your views on sporting events where two people of roughly equal weight and training start a fight when a bell rings, but there are other kinds of combat, and most martial arts include any number of moves to be used against anything from a drunken civilian with no combat experience to an armored warrior with a sword or spear.

I am sorry if I gave the impression that my views are based on sport. That is not the case. Training that focuses on competition, even if they claim to focus on self defense, often trains dangerous habits like ignoring attacks that can't be scored or building false instincts about what a "safe" distance is from your opponent.

Looking at the current CBII website, it seems they've removed (or hidden in the members area) the description they used to have of the 10 principles that guide the techniques and fighting theory. A pity. I do see some of them mentioned under the synthesis boards. I've got several books if you're interested.

I have studied videos of boxing, kick boxing, mixed martial arts, and sumo wrestling to try to understand which principles and techniques are present (or lacking) in each. They each offer something to learn

In my experience, if you're good at a jump kick, you can often surprise lower-level opponents by launching an immediate attack as soon as the sparring match begins. Even if your foot doesn't connect, it tends to put them on the defensive, and you can follow up with a flurry of other attacks once you've used the attack to close in.
Once I got green belt*, though, most opponents were able to adequately defend from this kind of attack.
Against a purple belt or above, you had a good chance of coming out behind from such attacks if you try to spring them on a ready opponent.

There are people who can make the most ridiculous technique effective because of natural athleticism, good reading ability, etc. I'm sure that jump kicks are no exception. I don't claim to be particularly accomplished (I am constantly humbled in this regard), but I have been involved in helping others "unlearn" things that they've been taught in other arts in preparation for studying softer styles and have been on the receiving end of a variety of techniques including high kicks and jump kicks. In almost every case, I was amazed at how easily dealt with these techniques were especially given the amount of pride that the students had in those techniques. As a rule, those techniques momentarily gave up the ability to control distance even though their effectiveness is entirely dependent on being at the correct distance. Against an opponent who is changeable and has studied how to enter against his opponent (perhaps this maps to your "green" or "purple" levels?), such a technique allows your opponent to be in control when he enters critical distance.

In my "untraining" sessions, by the time they had recovered from their own technique, I was often in grappling range and sometimes even behind them. You can imagine their surprise to finish the technique to find me inside their guard gently pressing a finger against their neck or eye (no one was ever injured, I promise).

Now, it's possible that my training and natural instincts just happen to be especially good against these particular techniques, but I doubt it. As I said before, I don't consider myself to be particularly accomplished or talented despite the ranking I managed to achieve. I had the good fortune of being smaller and weaker than some of the other students, so I never had the chance to rely on size or strength in order to overcome my poor technique. That almost certainly contributed to my advancement.

That said, I do have a healthy respect for anyone who has any sort of training at all, regardless of whether or not I agree with their fighting theory. One lucky hit, no matter how poorly advised, is all it takes to determine the outcome.

Another use of jump kicks, btw, is jumping out of the way of one attack while launching a counter-attack. This wouldn't work in Palladium rules, of course, but in real life it can be quite effective.
Again, mostly against lesser or distracted/disabled opponents.

If you're fighting ninjas, then yeah, pretty much never use a jump kick.
But if you're only ever fighting ninjas, then I'm pretty curious about what kind of life you're living.

The core of my training and fighting theory is to never take avoidable risks which means you always enter combat assuming that everyone is a ninja and that they have ninja friends nearby.

*(The ranking system was white, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, red, black)

We had an advisory system that served as a recognition of achievement but, perhaps more importantly, was also an indicator to other students who they should (or shouldn't) be following. The colors were ordered thusly: no sash, yellow, blue, green, purple, brown, red, black. Beginners wore no sash. Yellow and blue students had varying understanding and mastery over the core principles. An advanced student was green or above and was expected to have relative mastery over the core principles in isolation and to be developing the ability to apply the principles concurrently. Pretty heady stuff, but amazingly effective. The sash I have in the closet is red which basically meant I was the guy on the receiving end of most demonstrations.

As I understand it, however, CBII has only two official rankings: certified instructor and everyone else. I clearly fall into the later category. I had teaching duties, but I was still years away from being able to attempt certification.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Just about any technique is effective against the untrained or poorly trained. But why would you dare to assume that your opponent isn't at least as trained as you? Why take the risk?

You can't tell if they're untrained or poorly trained...?

In my experience, if you're good at a jump kick, you can often surprise lower-level opponents by launching an immediate attack as soon as the sparring match begins. Even if your foot doesn't connect, it tends to put them on the defensive, and you can follow up with a flurry of other attacks once you've used the attack to close in.
Once I got green belt*, though, most opponents were able to adequately defend from this kind of attack.
Against a purple belt or above, you had a good chance of coming out behind from such attacks if you try to spring them on a ready opponent.

There are people who can make the most ridiculous technique effective because of natural athleticism, good reading ability, etc. I'm sure that jump kicks are no exception.

Here's the thing: you're ridiculing a technique that has been taught in numbers martial arts for generations.
One of two things is going on:
1. You're right, and all the martial arts that include jump kicks are wrong.
2. You're wrong, and all the martial arts that include jump kicks are right.

Forgive me for not assuming that #1 is the way to bet.

Against an opponent who is changeable and has studied how to enter against his opponent (perhaps this maps to your "green" or "purple" levels?), such a technique allows your opponent to be in control when he enters critical distance.

Right.
And against opponents that aren't, and who have not, they're quite effective.
It's all knowing what to use, and when.

Another use of jump kicks, btw, is jumping out of the way of one attack while launching a counter-attack. This wouldn't work in Palladium rules, of course, but in real life it can be quite effective.
Again, mostly against lesser or distracted/disabled opponents.

If you're fighting ninjas, then yeah, pretty much never use a jump kick.
But if you're only ever fighting ninjas, then I'm pretty curious about what kind of life you're living.

The core of my training and fighting theory is to never take avoidable risks which means you always enter combat assuming that everyone is a ninja and that they have ninja friends nearby.[/quote]

Okay... but that kind of thinking can get you killed.

[flatline]

Just about any technique is effective against the untrained or poorly trained. But why would you dare to assume that your opponent isn't at least as trained as you? Why take the risk?

You can't tell if they're untrained or poorly trained...?

Appearances can be deceiving.

Some people, by nature or by training, don't noticeably project their competency.

If you met my teacher's teacher on the street, unless he was wearing one of his old seminar t-shirts, it would never cross your mind that he had studied martial arts at all. And he would do nothing to disabuse you of that until it was too late for you to recover from your mistake.

Here's the thing: you're ridiculing a technique that has been taught in numbers martial arts for generations.
One of two things is going on:
1. You're right, and all the martial arts that include jump kicks are wrong.
2. You're wrong, and all the martial arts that include jump kicks are right.

Forgive me for not assuming that #1 is the way to bet.

"You kick high, you die" is a truism accepted by a number of martial art styles. But if you want to pretend that it's just my word against the world, you do that.

Another use of jump kicks, btw, is jumping out of the way of one attack while launching a counter-attack. This wouldn't work in Palladium rules, of course, but in real life it can be quite effective.
Again, mostly against lesser or distracted/disabled opponents.

If you're fighting ninjas, then yeah, pretty much never use a jump kick.
But if you're only ever fighting ninjas, then I'm pretty curious about what kind of life you're living.

The core of my training and fighting theory is to never take avoidable risks which means you always enter combat assuming that everyone is a ninja and that they have ninja friends nearby.

Okay... but that kind of thinking can get you killed.

How so?

If we both agree that just about any technique can be effective against the untrained or poorly trained, what advantage to you gain by choosing a technique that puts you in danger of you've misjudged the competence of your opponent?

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Just about any technique is effective against the untrained or poorly trained. But why would you dare to assume that your opponent isn't at least as trained as you? Why take the risk?

You can't tell if they're untrained or poorly trained...?

Appearances can be deceiving.

Some people, by nature or by training, don't noticeably project their competency.

If you can't tell once the fight starts, they're either not very competent, or they're ninjas.

Here's the thing: you're ridiculing a technique that has been taught in numbers martial arts for generations.
One of two things is going on:
1. You're right, and all the martial arts that include jump kicks are wrong.
2. You're wrong, and all the martial arts that include jump kicks are right.

Forgive me for not assuming that #1 is the way to bet.

"You kick high, you die" is a truism accepted by a number of martial art styles. But if you want to pretend that it's just my word against the world, you do that.[/quote]

Again, it's a truism accepted by a number of martial arts... based on the assumption that you're fighting another trained martial artist, that they're unarmed, that they're not staggered or stunned, that they're not off-guard, etc. etc. etc.
Repeating stuff that I've already addressed isn't going to change anything.

Also, you're kind of changing the goalposts. Jump kicks don't have to be high kicks. And haymakers aren't kicks at all.

The core of my training and fighting theory is to never take avoidable risks which means you always enter combat assuming that everyone is a ninja and that they have ninja friends nearby.

Okay... but that kind of thinking can get you killed.

How so?[/quote]

Because while you're cautiously engaging with one opponent, taking your sweet time in case he might be a secret ninja, giving him the full time, caution, and respect that you would a trained combatant, his friends can show up and break a bottle on your head.

If we both agree that just about any technique can be effective against the untrained or poorly trained, what advantage to you gain by choosing a technique that puts you in danger of you've misjudged the competence of your opponent?

Slower, more powerful attacks are slower... but more powerful. You can use this kind of attack to drop somebody, to knock out or kill them, in less time than it would take to drop or kill them using faster, weaker attacks. IF you happen to be in such a situation where such an attack is likely to work.
If you want to argue that there are rarely times to use slower, more powerful attacks, that's great- that's all I've been saying.
If you want to argue that there are never (or almost never) times to use slower, more powerful attacks, then I'm going to have to keep saying the same stuff that I have been saying, that there are times and places for this kind of technique, and that all these martial arts didn't just invent them out of incompetence or insanity.

[flatline]

Just about any technique is effective against the untrained or poorly trained. But why would you dare to assume that your opponent isn't at least as trained as you? Why take the risk?

You can't tell if they're untrained or poorly trained...?

Appearances can be deceiving.

Some people, by nature or by training, don't noticeably project their competency.

If you can't tell once the fight starts, they're either not very competent, or they're ninjas.

It's too late once the fight starts. A good fighter will never give you the chance to recover from your initial mistake.

The core of my training and fighting theory is to never take avoidable risks which means you always enter combat assuming that everyone is a ninja and that they have ninja friends nearby.

Okay... but that kind of thinking can get you killed.

How so?

Because while you're cautiously engaging with one opponent, taking your sweet time in case he might be a secret ninja, giving him the full time, caution, and respect that you would a trained combatant, his friends can show up and break a bottle on your head.

Caution doesn't mean slower. Caution just means not making avoidable mistakes like choosing risky techniques unnecessarily . One of the 10 principles is called "Sticking" which means that once we enter critical distance, I will attempt to never let you out of critical distance until the fight is over. This means that if you misjudge my ability or make a mistake, you never get a chance to back away and recover. This is why it's so important not to underestimate your opponent before touch occurs.

--flatline

[Shark_Force]

on a side note, rarely wanting to use a powerful but slow attack fits in perfectly with how the power punch works. it's not something you use all the time. it's something you use in specific situations that call for it.

this also makes a lot of sense, because if it was always a good idea 100% of the time to use a power punch, they wouldn't call it a power punch... they would call it a regular punch, because it would be the one you use almost every single time, instead of being a special manoeuvre that you use occasionally when appropriate.

and i still say it's silly to expect something that takes two actions to perform to require any amount of time other than the amount of time it takes to perform two actions.

[Killer Cyborg]

Just about any technique is effective against the untrained or poorly trained. But why would you dare to assume that your opponent isn't at least as trained as you? Why take the risk?

You can't tell if they're untrained or poorly trained...?

Appearances can be deceiving.

Some people, by nature or by training, don't noticeably project their competency.

If you can't tell once the fight starts, they're either not very competent, or they're ninjas.

It's too late once the fight starts. A good fighter will never give you the chance to recover from your initial mistake.

What mistake?

while you're cautiously engaging with one opponent, taking your sweet time in case he might be a secret ninja, giving him the full time, caution, and respect that you would a trained combatant, his friends can show up and break a bottle on your head.

Caution doesn't mean slower.

Yeah, it pretty much does.
It means choosing safer techniques over more effective techniques, it means taking more time to protect yourself, and it means taking time.
Watch any fight, and count the time the fighters spend NOT attacking each other.mthat's due to caution.

just means not making avoidable mistakes like choosing risky techniques unnecessarily .

I'm not advocating doing anything unnecessarily.
You have been seeming to indicate, thoug, that risky techniques are inherently unnecessary.