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Nightmask wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nightmask wrote:1d6 compared to 2d6 really isn't significant, a 50% drop not significant? and in looking at mages they obviously have 10 to 50 times the PPE of a normal human (and even a child as the peak of a normal human in PPE generally only has like 6d6 only? thats an 80% drop from child to Mind Mage... and a 60+% drop from child to "average adult") so clearly part of the training to become a mage vastly increases someone's PPE, there's nothing about being a psionic that makes it impossible for them to build up their PPE (certainly nothing logical or rational, because 'well I think that's what the books say' doesn't qualify). Plus as already noted there really isn't any 'burning off' of PPE,no burning off? what do you call the 60% drop from child to adult then? the best you can argue is that the focus on advancing your psionics just hindered your PPE development.

Really, there's no reason why a psionic couldn't change class, there's nothing about the classes that shut your brain off and make it impossible for you to learn other things or change your interests over time, which is pretty much the argument claiming that they can't change to a different class. That once you're a Mind Melter (for example) you develop a psychological obsession with the powers and are incapable of deciding that maybe you'd like to become a Rogue Scholar and changing pursuits. Indeed that in the given example your defeat, no matter how crushing or total or repeated, can never shatter your belief that psionic powers are the greatest thing ever and you'll always continue to want to use them no matter how ineffective they are and how effective you see the Ley Line Walker or Power Armor Pilot being. Sorry but totally breaks suspension of disbelief.

And now you claim that Psi are ineffective? or is that just hyperbole?

I have no idea where you arrive at that statement, given it has absolutely no basis in anything I've said. Even adult dragons and alien intelligences can be dealt humiliating defeats let alone a mortal Mind Melter and a mortal Mind Melter unlike a dragon doesn't have racial memories and other things that interfere with ones ability to change ones chosen career. So even with the best psionic selections possible the Mind Melter could just have the misfortune of being in a spot where his life-molding experiences leave him broken and humiliated and seeking more, including perhaps forgoing his advances as a Mind Melter to become what seems more effective whether it be Ley Line Walker, Power Armor Pilot, or even Rogue Scholar.

Yes, 50% is insignificant when you're talking 1d6 vs 2d6. On the larger scale it means nothing compared to what a mage has generally. I should also point out the concept of atrophy, where something diminishes due to lack of use. Which is why children have the peak potential growing up but it diminishes by adulthood and why for SOME psychic classes it atrophies even more since they aren't working and developing it which requires some kind of magic study or orientation. BUT by switching to a mage class one begins working those PPE 'muscles' and building them back up again, this is also why switching from one magic class to another doesn't get you combined starting PPE because you've already been working the 'muscles' so they're already highly developed and the new class can't give them an even bigger boost.

That has to be the absolute best munchkin argument I have ever read to date.

Then you clearly have the most ridiculously expansive definition of munchkin of I've ever seen, that you think things atrophying from lack of use and growing stronger with use and practice is munchkin. I gather you must find someone seeking the Body Building skill to be munchkin, since he wants to work his muscles and increase his physical strength and SDC and you define someone working to improve some aspect of themselves as munchkin.

Its an interesting argument, though it lacks support from any of the books but other than that its an interesting and plausible explaination into some of the mechanics behind PPE and makes a good house rule.

eliakon wrote:Off hand.....can anyone point to a canon source anywhere that says that you cant later develop and train to have a higher PPE base? I am not talking about if a psi can or can not change class. I am asking for a canon "thou shalt not improve thy ppe after thus and such a point"
anyone?

I can't see how they could, since we see all (or at least nearly all, since I haven't seen every class to say for certain) mages developing PPE from level one all the way up to level 15. It wouldn't be particularly compatible to say 'you can't improve your PPE after this point' when the mages improve all the way up to the highest levels provided for in the game.

Unfortunately the lack of rules covering possible skill/ability atrophy with neglect doesn't help things. Once you achieve X in something you're considered to always have it no matter how much you neglect it after that point, you can't ever lose proficiency. Rules that allowed for that wouldn't be a bad idea, but perhaps too complex to implement.

eliakon wrote:Its an interesting argument, though it lacks support from any of the books but other than that its an interesting and plausible explaination into some of the mechanics behind PPE and makes a good house rule.

Thanks, I felt it did help cover all the conflicting details of things into a more explainable and cohesive concept. It's just unfortunate that Palladium doesn't have proper rules for such things, some seem to require everything be written out in a Palladium book somewhere rather than accept any suggestions from anyone else. It would also help select against certain kinds of class changes without the player being willing to accept atrophying of the abilities of the original OCC or be forced into having to engage in extra effort to maintain the abilities which many wouldn't care for. Only the dedicated player who welcomes such challenges would bother with such activities.

Nightmask wrote:

eliakon wrote:Its an interesting argument, though it lacks support from any of the books but other than that its an interesting and plausible explaination into some of the mechanics behind PPE and makes a good house rule.

Thanks, I felt it did help cover all the conflicting details of things into a more explainable and cohesive concept. It's just unfortunate that Palladium doesn't have proper rules for such things, some seem to require everything be written out in a Palladium book somewhere rather than accept any suggestions from anyone else. It would also help select against certain kinds of class changes without the player being willing to accept atrophying of the abilities of the original OCC or be forced into having to engage in extra effort to maintain the abilities which many wouldn't care for. Only the dedicated player who welcomes such challenges would bother with such activities.

Its not that people dont accept suggestions, its just that on here, if people are asking for answers, if its not canon you run into the multiplicity of everyones personal opinion. *shrugs* Its worth pointing out though, that there are many alternate plausible explainations for how PPE works, that are also equailly valid, or not, since they too would start with "my opinion is that....."

eliakon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

eliakon wrote:Its an interesting argument, though it lacks support from any of the books but other than that its an interesting and plausible explaination into some of the mechanics behind PPE and makes a good house rule.

Thanks, I felt it did help cover all the conflicting details of things into a more explainable and cohesive concept. It's just unfortunate that Palladium doesn't have proper rules for such things, some seem to require everything be written out in a Palladium book somewhere rather than accept any suggestions from anyone else. It would also help select against certain kinds of class changes without the player being willing to accept atrophying of the abilities of the original OCC or be forced into having to engage in extra effort to maintain the abilities which many wouldn't care for. Only the dedicated player who welcomes such challenges would bother with such activities.

Its not that people dont accept suggestions, its just that on here, if people are asking for answers, if its not canon you run into the multiplicity of everyones personal opinion. *shrugs* Its worth pointing out though, that there are many alternate plausible explainations for how PPE works, that are also equailly valid, or not, since they too would start with "my opinion is that....."

Which is where a good chunk of the argument and animosity that occurs comes from sadly, where someone deems someone else's explanation as not just impossible but as an attempt to 'cheat the system', in a system that isn't and never was meant to be balanced and is way too big to avoid some level of contradiction and support for competing ideas/viewpoints.

EDIT:

Personally even if I think someone's dead wrong about something I still shrug and acknowledge that they're free to think that and play it that way in their game and don't pass judgement on it (well generally, we all pass judgement to some degree after all).

Nightmask wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nightmask wrote:1d6 compared to 2d6 really isn't significant, a 50% drop not significant? and in looking at mages they obviously have 10 to 50 times the PPE of a normal human (and even a child as the peak of a normal human in PPE generally only has like 6d6 only? thats an 80% drop from child to Mind Mage... and a 60+% drop from child to "average adult") so clearly part of the training to become a mage vastly increases someone's PPE, there's nothing about being a psionic that makes it impossible for them to build up their PPE (certainly nothing logical or rational, because 'well I think that's what the books say' doesn't qualify). Plus as already noted there really isn't any 'burning off' of PPE,no burning off? what do you call the 60% drop from child to adult then? the best you can argue is that the focus on advancing your psionics just hindered your PPE development.

Really, there's no reason why a psionic couldn't change class, there's nothing about the classes that shut your brain off and make it impossible for you to learn other things or change your interests over time, which is pretty much the argument claiming that they can't change to a different class. That once you're a Mind Melter (for example) you develop a psychological obsession with the powers and are incapable of deciding that maybe you'd like to become a Rogue Scholar and changing pursuits. Indeed that in the given example your defeat, no matter how crushing or total or repeated, can never shatter your belief that psionic powers are the greatest thing ever and you'll always continue to want to use them no matter how ineffective they are and how effective you see the Ley Line Walker or Power Armor Pilot being. Sorry but totally breaks suspension of disbelief.

And now you claim that Psi are ineffective? or is that just hyperbole?

I have no idea where you arrive at that statement, given it has absolutely no basis in anything I've said. Even adult dragons and alien intelligences can be dealt humiliating defeats let alone a mortal Mind Melter and a mortal Mind Melter unlike a dragon doesn't have racial memories and other things that interfere with ones ability to change ones chosen career. So even with the best psionic selections possible the Mind Melter could just have the misfortune of being in a spot where his life-molding experiences leave him broken and humiliated and seeking more, including perhaps forgoing his advances as a Mind Melter to become what seems more effective whether it be Ley Line Walker, Power Armor Pilot, or even Rogue Scholar.

Yes, 50% is insignificant when you're talking 1d6 vs 2d6. On the larger scale it means nothing compared to what a mage has generally. I should also point out the concept of atrophy, where something diminishes due to lack of use. Which is why children have the peak potential growing up but it diminishes by adulthood and why for SOME psychic classes it atrophies even more since they aren't working and developing it which requires some kind of magic study or orientation. BUT by switching to a mage class one begins working those PPE 'muscles' and building them back up again, this is also why switching from one magic class to another doesn't get you combined starting PPE because you've already been working the 'muscles' so they're already highly developed and the new class can't give them an even bigger boost.

That has to be the absolute best munchkin argument I have ever read to date.

Then you clearly have the most ridiculously expansive definition of munchkin of I've ever seen, that you think things atrophying from lack of use and growing stronger with use and practice is munchkin. I gather you must find someone seeking the Body Building skill to be munchkin, since he wants to work his muscles and increase his physical strength and SDC and you define someone working to improve some aspect of themselves as munchkin.

Were that the end point of your argument we wouldn't be having this conversation...
But we both know this but the first step...
By your argument my Mind Mage at level 9 can choose to stop being a mind mage (but gets to keep his accumulated isp and psi powers) and start being a wizard.
Now let's assume that as a wizard I make it to level 9.
I have just created the equivalent of a level 30 or so (in power not levels) mystic. And at roughly half the Exp cost. And you say that is not munchkin? You clearly have too narrow a definition of what constitutes munchkin.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nightmask wrote:I have no idea where you arrive at that statement, given it has absolutely no basis in anything I've said. Even adult dragons and alien intelligences can be dealt humiliating defeats let alone a mortal Mind Melter and a mortal Mind Melter unlike a dragon doesn't have racial memories and other things that interfere with ones ability to change ones chosen career. So even with the best psionic selections possible the Mind Melter could just have the misfortune of being in a spot where his life-molding experiences leave him broken and humiliated and seeking more, including perhaps forgoing his advances as a Mind Melter to become what seems more effective whether it be Ley Line Walker, Power Armor Pilot, or even Rogue Scholar.

Yes, 50% is insignificant when you're talking 1d6 vs 2d6. On the larger scale it means nothing compared to what a mage has generally. I should also point out the concept of atrophy, where something diminishes due to lack of use. Which is why children have the peak potential growing up but it diminishes by adulthood and why for SOME psychic classes it atrophies even more since they aren't working and developing it which requires some kind of magic study or orientation. BUT by switching to a mage class one begins working those PPE 'muscles' and building them back up again, this is also why switching from one magic class to another doesn't get you combined starting PPE because you've already been working the 'muscles' so they're already highly developed and the new class can't give them an even bigger boost.

That has to be the absolute best munchkin argument I have ever read to date.

Then you clearly have the most ridiculously expansive definition of munchkin of I've ever seen, that you think things atrophying from lack of use and growing stronger with use and practice is munchkin. I gather you must find someone seeking the Body Building skill to be munchkin, since he wants to work his muscles and increase his physical strength and SDC and you define someone working to improve some aspect of themselves as munchkin.

Were that the end point of your argument we wouldn't be having this conversation...
But we both know this but the first step...
By your argument my Mind Mage at level 9 can choose to stop being a mind mage (but gets to keep his accumulated isp and psi powers) and start being a wizard.
Now let's assume that as a wizard I make it to level 9.
I have just created the equivalent of a level 30 or so (in power not levels) mystic. And at roughly half the Exp cost. And you say that is not munchkin? You clearly have too narrow a definition of what constitutes munchkin.

The problem is what you think to be the end point is wrong, adding on multiple steps far beyond the actual point being addressed, steps that aren't the given you make them out to be. You also simply slap a dismissive label onto things instead of considering the next step to be logical ways to balance things if you feel it may be too powerful for a particular game. Because that's what it actually is, an issue of whether or not it's too powerful for a particular game, NOT about being munchkin.

Munchkin is a style of play that is detrimental to the game in question because it negatively impacts everyone else as the player acts without any regard to anyone else in the game. Someone, like in the example stated, switching from a Mind Melter to a Ley Line Walker may or may not be munchkin because it's completely devoid of context and what kind of behavior the player has been engaging in. ALL we can say is that it MAY be too powerful for a particular game. Given you describe a character that the player worked up to level 9 as a Mind Melter AND worked up to level 9 as a Ley Line Walker clearly we aren't talking someone who is a munchkin because he'd have NEVER lasted long enough in a game to reach those levels with that kind of behavioral problem.

If someone can play the character to the benefit of everyone else in the game and no one's having complaints about it (since again in your scenario the GM clearly approved the change) then it's not munchkin, it may not even be over-powered but even if it were if it's not being played to anyone's detriment including that of the GM then again it's not munchkin. Since after all the point is for everyone to enjoy themselves and if everyone's okay with it then there's no problem with it even if it's not something you'd allow in your game. Some here from posts I've read even seem to enjoy it where the characters are actively working against each other so apparently they actually play games where you're all supposed to be acting as munchkins with your character all you care about and getting one over on each other is the goal.

Power with out limits is munchkin.
What you propose is a method of obtaining such.
Hence my statement.
That you now are proposing limits is indicative of being caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

If it walks, flies, swims, looks and quack like a duck... Then logically it must be a duck.

Soooo, back on the topic....Or do we just write this one off as locked and move on?

eliakon wrote:Soooo, back on the topic....Or do we just write this one off as locked and move on?

Yes lets.

Damian Magecraft wrote:Power with out limits is munchkin.
What you propose is a method of obtaining such.
Hence my statement.
That you now are proposing limits is indicative of being caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

If it walks, flies, swims, looks and quack like a duck... Then logically it must be a duck.

No, power without limits is not, but again you have an extremely over-broad definition of munchkin that basically applies to everything and no suggesting limits is not proof of anything other than use of fallacious reasoning on your part to justify the end result you want because you're unwilling to accept that you're just wrong. You've not and never have seen a duck but do not wish to admit that you have not.

This one has wandered well away from the original topic.