Why I like canon.

[Sureshot]

Here the thing though if the game company advance the story and canon is that no one is forcing anyone to use the changes. I know of two D&D dms who refuse to use any of the changes of 4E FR. Yet other players who when they DM use the 4E FR changes. It only steam rolls a gm work if a gm allows it to steam roll his or her work. Don't like something don't use it. I own a few rpg that have had a few canon and background changes. None of them ruined my enjoyment as a player or as a gm. I have enough work to do as a gm that anything that reduces my workload as a dm is a good thing.

[Daeglan]

Here the thing though if the game company advance the story and canon is that no one is forcing anyone to use the changes. I know of two D&D dms who refuse to use any of the changes of 4E FR. Yet other players who when they DM use the 4E FR changes. It only steam rolls a gm work if a gm allows it to steam roll his or her work. Don't like something don't use it. I own a few rpg that have had a few canon and background changes. None of them ruined my enjoyment as a player or as a gm. I have enough work to do as a gm that anything that reduces my workload as a dm is a good thing.

And yet when you advance the story you create a lot of work for the GM. New book and material need to be adjusted etc. There is no reason the game company needs to move the story forward and they really shouldn't. Every game system I have seen that uses a metaplot ends up with a mess. White wolf basically had to reboot their whole world to deal with the mess they made. Leave the story to the GM's. The game is not going to be canon once the PC's step into the world anyway.

[Sureshot]

And yet when you advance the story you create a lot of work for the GM. New book and material need to be adjusted etc. There is no reason the game company needs to move the story forward and they really shouldn't. Every game system I have seen that uses a metaplot ends up with a mess. White wolf basically had to reboot their whole world to deal with the mess they made. Leave the story to the GM's. The game is not going to be canon once the PC's step into the world anyway.

Again one does not have to use any of the metaplot. Or anything in the books. Paizo tried to fix the monk class by changing certain features for the worse imo. It was a official change yet I was able to ignore it because it gimped the monk badly. A player asked if he could use the summon monster list from the core pfrp book as opposed to a new one that the paizo devs had erratad. Again something new I decided to ignore. Ninjabunny is correct in that every rpg that had a setting advanced slowly. Some more than others. I'm also a fan of Champions. In the 5E edtion of a book that updated the champions background a bunch of supervillians were locked up in Stronghold (superhero prision). Reading the 6E version of the Champions universe book there was a big breakout. I can choose to stay with the supervillians in prison or I choose the prison break it's not going to ruin my games.

To be honest I think small changes in setting are inevitable. I doubt that all that Northern Gun has been doing is selling weapons and kissing CS behind in the last 10 years. . I'm expecting their to be so small advances to canon and background in the upcoming NG books. I get your point about a metaplot ruining a rpg. and agree with you about White wolf and the Old world of Darkness. Yet along with the Sot are imo very extreme examples. I still to this day wonder what the WW devs were thinking. How could they not realize that having the world end no matter what tied into all game lines and nothing could stop it be a good thing. Another problem is that unless all new material is created to not move or alter the background it's going to happen. Look at Battletech. The devs wanted a reason to bring back all the lost technology and found two metaplot reasons to do so. One was a mercenary group found a data core with a bunch of specs that had old lost tech. Then you had the clans. I disliked the clans yet beyond a invasion force using tech that was lost in war. No reason to mass produce the tech that decrypted in the data core.

[Sureshot]

I would remove shadowrun from the list. If any game has had some metaplot changes to the setting it's that game imo.

[Nightmask]

Here the thing though if the game company advance the story and canon is that no one is forcing anyone to use the changes. I know of two D&D dms who refuse to use any of the changes of 4E FR. Yet other players who when they DM use the 4E FR changes. It only steam rolls a gm work if a gm allows it to steam roll his or her work. Don't like something don't use it. I own a few rpg that have had a few canon and background changes. None of them ruined my enjoyment as a player or as a gm. I have enough work to do as a gm that anything that reduces my workload as a dm is a good thing.

And yet when you advance the story you create a lot of work for the GM. New book and material need to be adjusted etc. There is no reason the game company needs to move the story forward and they really shouldn't. Every game system I have seen that uses a metaplot ends up with a mess. White wolf basically had to reboot their whole world to deal with the mess they made. Leave the story to the GM's. The game is not going to be canon once the PC's step into the world anyway.

It never seemed much of a problem for AD&D, although the way they work it the changes for advancing things don't have to be included and won't hurt you in any fashion with later game material that comes out. It's more of a problem with Palladium with how things are presented, the limited number of books and being in the 'eternal now' feel makes anything that constitutes a big change to a setting extremely problematic and hard to ignore if you want to use further game material in that region. Plus PC in AD&D have more of a chance of actually guiding or outright deciding how things go making the change totally theirs rather than sitting on the sidelines like happens with Siege of Tolkeen where they really can't do anything or make any sort of difference to the end.

[Daeglan]

Why not just leave the story to the GM. Why do they even need a meta plot and why should it advance?

[Nightmask]

Why not just leave the story to the GM. Why do they even need a meta plot and why should it advance?

Some of us are weak on creating ongoing stories and like to see the game company provide ongoing moving plots.

[Daeglan]

AD&D did not have an advancing plot. Some of the game worlds did.

[Nightmask]

AD&D did not have an advancing plot. Some of the game worlds did.

Rifts is a game world, so that leaves it open to an advancing plot for good or ill.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I disagree. Canon should advance. Not with every new sourcebook. Yet a game world cannot imo remain eternally static and unchanging. Espcially rifts. where their is just too many factions, groups etc. Advancing the canon if done properly can enrich a game world imo. A good example of how not to do it was with White Wolfs old world of darkness. A world ending event. No way to stop it. No way to alter it. Just doom death and destruction. Sure one could play around the metaplot yet later books just were built on top of the metaplot. Same thing with Chaos Earth. I and my players have no urge to run or play it. The time of the Rifts will come. There is no stopping it. No altering it the fact. So why bother. Might as well just play Rifts.

I only dislike canon when writers toss canon aside. As in Sot. Somehow general homes survives in the Xicitix badlands when by canon even with all his precautions he should have been torn apart. No one bothered to test Tolkeen defence system to check and see if it could handle a battle situation. So of course it collapses. CS given script and plot immunity because of their popularity. Don't bother trying to change my opinion on the CS in sot it's set in adamantium. The organizations with good alignments somehow never trusting or liking each other enough to work togther. Yet the evil rganizations seem to work well toghter. Despite the fact that by the book evil characters should not get along. All so that the good organizations never band as a group to defeat the evil organizations in Rifts

PB is not the first company to ignore canon in a rpg. Nor the last. Just hate it when any company does it.

Why can't it remain unchanging? it's an entire planet. You could write hundreds of books on all the areas and not have the base timeline advance a single second, no problem, it would require no effort to avoid advancing plot.

[Tor]

the Splugorth conquering Earth will be something that will ruin the setting forever...

Final Rifts book from Palladium:

"Turns out some crazy Chi Mage brought back the Four Horsemen and this time they formed the Apocalypse Demon and destroyed the earth. All your PCs have fled to Phrase World"

Cue 20+ Phase World dimension books where the Minion War continues.

[Daeglan]

Advancing plots should stay in adventure books not the content books.

basically we ought to have meta plot boots. Which can have things fall in multiple ways.

IE Siege of Tolkeen metaplot book has coalition wins, coalition loses, stalemate.

[Galroth]

Advancing plots should stay in adventure books not the content books.

basically we ought to have meta plot boots. Which can have things fall in multiple ways.

IE Siege of Tolkeen metaplot book has coalition wins, coalition loses, stalemate.

That I would have purchased. SoT, not so much.

[Sureshot]

Some of us are weak on creating ongoing stories and like to see the game company provide ongoing moving plots.

Agreed and seconded. As well time is now a issue. I prefer metaplot because I can pick and choose to include what I like and don't like. If I were to ever run a Rifts game again I am including the Lemurians and tossing aside the Mauian order. Hate mary sue evil organizations that can do anything and everything that are never noticed.

Why can't it remain unchanging? it's an entire planet. You could write hundreds of books on all the areas and not have the base timeline advance a single second, no problem, it would require no effort to avoid advancing plot.

Main problem with it remaining unchanging is that Rifts Earth has too many things happening on it all at once. As well as too many organizations, alien intelligences, just too much of everything. No way no how all that is going to remain static and unchanging forever. With new books including more characters and organizations both good and evil to the mix. The Splugortyh may not try to conquer the world yet I refuse to beleive he is going to remain forvever happy with just Atlantis. He is starting to slowly expand into Canada. Probally unchallenged because he is imo just too strong and the good aligned organizations don't trust each other enough to band togther to do anything.

When I say metaplot I don't mean the entire planet. A few changes in canon and advancing of the metaplot if down well is not going to ruin Rifts earth. Whatever one does not like one does not use. I don't use the turnip people or the lightning duck in my games. I would be laughed away from the gaming table and deservedly so imo.

[Sureshot]

I only own the 20th annaiversary main book.

Good to know. I had purchased the 2E, 3e and 4E as well as some sourcebooks. So for me it's been a evolving world and metaplot.

[Daeglan]

Some of us are weak on creating ongoing stories and like to see the game company provide ongoing moving plots.

Agreed and seconded. As well time is now a issue. I prefer metaplot because I can pick and choose to include what I like and don't like. If I were to ever run a Rifts game again I am including the Lemurians and tossing aside the Mauian order. Hate mary sue evil organizations that can do anything and everything that are never noticed.

Why can't it remain unchanging? it's an entire planet. You could write hundreds of books on all the areas and not have the base timeline advance a single second, no problem, it would require no effort to avoid advancing plot.

Main problem with it remaining unchanging is that Rifts Earth has too many things happening on it all at once. As well as too many organizations, alien intelligences, just too much of everything. No way no how all that is going to remain static and unchanging forever. With new books including more characters and organizations both good and evil to the mix. The Splugortyh may not try to conquer the world yet I refuse to beleive he is going to remain forvever happy with just Atlantis. He is starting to slowly expand into Canada. Probally unchallenged because he is imo just too strong and the good aligned organizations don't trust each other enough to band togther to do anything.

When I say metaplot I don't mean the entire planet. A few changes in canon and advancing of the metaplot if down well is not going to ruin Rifts earth. Whatever one does not like one does not use. I don't use the turnip people or the lightning duck in my games. I would be laughed away from the gaming table and deservedly so imo.

No one is claiming it is remaining static. It evolves and changes in the GMs game. Palladium sets up the players in the world. The gm picks the story based off that. The story should be told in our games not Palladiums books.

[Sureshot]

Well Palladium books can do what it wants with it's backgrounds or metaplots. If Kevin wants to change the canon or advance the metaplot he can. We may game in his world it's not our world.

Again a small amount of canon and metaplot changes is not going to hurt the rpg.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Why can't it remain unchanging? it's an entire planet. You could write hundreds of books on all the areas and not have the base timeline advance a single second, no problem, it would require no effort to avoid advancing plot.

Main problem with it remaining unchanging is that Rifts Earth has too many things happening on it all at once. As well as too many organizations, alien intelligences, just too much of everything. No way no how all that is going to remain static and unchanging forever. With new books including more characters and organizations both good and evil to the mix. The Splugortyh may not try to conquer the world yet I refuse to beleive he is going to remain forvever happy with just Atlantis. He is starting to slowly expand into Canada. Probally unchallenged because he is imo just too strong and the good aligned organizations don't trust each other enough to band togther to do anything.

When I say metaplot I don't mean the entire planet. A few changes in canon and advancing of the metaplot if down well is not going to ruin Rifts earth. Whatever one does not like one does not use. I don't use the turnip people or the lightning duck in my games. I would be laughed away from the gaming table and deservedly so imo.

Of course Rifts earth won't remain unchanging forever, but there is no reason the books have to tell us what changes. You can write new alien intelligences and factions as they are as of the time of the first book easially without advancing the timeline, and you haven't explained what's good about advancing it.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't mind the advancing timeline.
I DO mind the timeline advancing while leaving us in the dark about major chunks of the primary setting.

[Gamer]

Well Palladium books can do what it wants with it's backgrounds or metaplots. If Kevin wants to change the canon or advance the metaplot he can. We may game in his world it's not our world.

Again a small amount of canon and metaplot changes is not going to hurt the rpg.

This isn't a movie or novel it's an RPG.
It is our world not his.
What he and the writers put into print is a baseline on a world they envision, what the GM and the players create from session to session is the resulting world and is not going to be the same from group to group nor what the writers envisioned.
It is only on the forums that people are stuck with canon.

[Sureshot]

With respect in a person own game world and only on his own game world is the rpg his. Outside of it it's Kevin world. Period. End of story. He created the world. He paid to copyright his IP. He can do whatever the hell he wants with Rifts. Advance or not advance the time line. Have splugorth conquer the world or not. The only thing buying the core rifts book gets you is the ability to alter the world in your own game. Outside of that Kevin has the only final say. A person game world may be different from another person game world or even Kevin. Yet in the end legally it's still Kevin ip to freely do with it. A person can freely choose to ignore canon and metaplot. As long as Kevin owns the ip he can do what he wants with it.

I do not follow the rifts canon or metaplot to the letter in my games. Neither do I alter everything because it's a pain in the behind to do so and I have vastly better things to do with my time than rebuild a entire rp game world from scratch. Unless the developers vision truly conflicts with mine and so far beyond a few exceptions like Sot I like what Kevin has done with the with Rifts in general. I get and respect that some dislike canon and metaplot in rpgs. Yet my mind is set on the issue and your not going to convince me that canon and metaplot in small amounts is a bad thing. As I suspect I'm not going to convince others that metaplot and canon is a good thing in any amount

[Daeglan]

Still waiting for you to tell us the benefit of advancing the time line. cause I see none.

[Akashic Soldier]

Still waiting for you to tell us the benefit of advancing the time line. cause I see none.

New story potentials.
New conversation topics.
New technologies.
New enemies.
New allies.

[Daeglan]

Still waiting for you to tell us the benefit of advancing the time line. cause I see none.

New story potentials.
New conversation topics.
New technologies.
New enemies.
New allies.

All of those do not require advancing the timeline.

[flatline]

Still waiting for you to tell us the benefit of advancing the time line. cause I see none.

New story potentials.
New conversation topics.
New technologies.
New enemies.
New allies.

I fail to see how any of those necessitate advancing the time line.

--flatline

[Akashic Soldier]

Still waiting for you to tell us the benefit of advancing the time line. cause I see none.

New story potentials.
New conversation topics.
New technologies.
New enemies.
New allies.

I fail to see how any of those necessitate advancing the time line.

--flatline

I never said that it necessitated it. I just listed that they're the common advantages of an advancement.

[Daeglan]

No we really did not. We just need to know who they are and their powers and abilities and how they think and where they are located. They strike when the GM says so. GM doesn't know when they strike? Are you serious?

[Akashic Soldier]

No we really did not. We just need to know who they are and their powers and abilities and how they think and where they are located. They strike when the GM says so. GM doesn't know when they strike? Are you serious?

Go look at the timeline in Traix 2. If you can come back and tell me having that isn't cool than you and I are too very different people.

[Sureshot]

There has been metaplot from the beginning. Some small and in the case of CS vs tolkeen big. Some of the metaplot has reached it's conclusion and some is still ongoing. AK brought up a good example. The president of the CS was killed off by d-bee terroists. The gargoyles were given a blow by the NGR that they may never recover from. I like that they advanced canon and moved the metaplot slightly forward. As the whole gargoyle vs NGr thing was just going nowhere fast for far too long. Even if I did not like it I can still use the book as I can borrow many things from it. I fail to see why metaplot and altering canon is also automatically a bad thing. Again it needs to be repeated. No one is forcing anyone to use any books with metaplot or canon they don't like. It may not be the answer that some want to hear in this thread yet it does not make it a less valid reason.

Still waiting for posters to tell me the negative of advancing the time line. So far I'm not seeing any reason not to. And no "because I don't like it" is not imo a valid reason. Don't like it dont' use it.

[Daeglan]

Setting up who the players are and what they think of each other is not really meta plot. Meta plot is when the game company starts dictating what happens and who is doing what and what the results are.

I have the same advice for the game company I give GMs. If you want to dictate out comes and what everyone is doing...Write a novel. Give us the situation and who everyone is and their goals. Let the GMs and players come up with the result. They added Atlantis and the Vampire kingdoms with out needing to advance the story line. In fact the first 8 books or so they managed to do just fine with out advancing the story. So Really they do not need to do it.

[Daeglan]

Setting up who the players are and what they think of each other is not really meta plot. Meta plot is when the game company starts dictating what happens and who is doing what and what the results are.

I have the same advice for the game company I give GMs. If you want to dictate out comes and what everyone is doing...Write a novel. Give us the situation and who everyone is and their goals. Let the GMs and players come up with the result. They added Atlantis and the Vampire kingdoms with out needing to advance the story line. In fact the first 8 books or so they managed to do just fine with out advancing the story. So Really they do not need to do it.

I don't see why they don't need it though, you have not seen a need for it and I am not seeing a reason not to have it. Meta plot is up to a GM to use as they see fit or not use. Your statements those far read to me like you feel the meta plot is some how forced upon you.

It is in many ways forced on you. We will never really know what Tolkeen is like because the only view we ever got of it is it basically destroyed. We will never really know what Freehold was like because it is destroyed. All the new books basically have the advanced timeline baked in. And so on. In order to not use the meta plot you have forced a lot of extra work on the GM in order to undo the mess. Leave the story telling to the GM's.

[Daeglan]

Let me put it to you in another way. Which would you find more useful. Meta plot or more raw material for stories. IE story or various factions and geographic info along with equipment, NPCs with backgrounds etc.?

[Akashic Soldier]

Let me put it to you in another way. Which would you find more useful. Meta plot or more raw material for stories. IE story or various factions and geographic info along with equipment, NPCs with backgrounds etc.?

But I get material for stories from the metaplot and it gives me a broader understanding of the setting?

[Gamer]

The advancing story lines and meta plots is a debate that will not reach an end and is a debate that is found on many RPG forums covering many genres.
Some like it, some don't, nobody is right, nobody is wrong it is all matter of preference.

Daeglan, you shouldn't be saying

In fact the first 8 books or so they managed to do just fine with out advancing the story. So Really they do not need to do it.

Without knowing the facts because the fact is your wrong.
Advancing story lines were there from the beginning.
The Archie Storyline starts in SB1
Vampire kingdom book Erin Tarn disappears in 101 PA and does not return until 103 PA in Africa and deals with that trival matter of the Four Horseman and she is the one describing places through many books from her point of view - a story line of itself-
The Mechanoid sourcebook starts the psychic premonition warnings story lines 'seven demons and four great dangers 'The Devourer' and all the rest along with the defeating the mechanoids before they eat earth story line.
The ARCHIE story doesn't even care what the players may have done in SB1 with ARCHIE.

I'll use canon as I see fit, it's my world.
If i'm on the forum i'm stuck with canon as written as that is the only thing all the members can work with in common.

[Sureshot]

Setting up who the players are and what they think of each other is not really meta plot. Meta plot is when the game company starts dictating what happens and who is doing what and what the results are.

I have the same advice for the game company I give GMs. If you want to dictate out comes and what everyone is doing...Write a novel. Give us the situation and who everyone is and their goals. Let the GMs and players come up with the result. They added Atlantis and the Vampire kingdoms with out needing to advance the story line. In fact the first 8 books or so they managed to do just fine with out advancing the story. So Really they do not need to do it.

They don't have to ask the fanbase whether they want to include metaplot or not. Nor is it about writing a novel or not. If Kevin decides that the Vampire Kingdoms are tired of mexico and want more territory than he can can do it. Since when does a rpg company have to ask the fanbase what is has to add or nor add in terms of metaplot or canon. My response like Kevin response or any other rpg developer response is you don't have to use it. Before yo or anyone says "your wrong imetaplot and canoin are froced on you". My response is are their people in your home with guns trained to your head ready to shot you if you deviate from canon or metaplot. No than stop saying it's forced on you.

I have had similar experiences with Ninjabunny where no gm I know has been unable to run the rifts because of the metaplot. As a gm you take what you need. Ignore the rest. If I ran rifts again splugorth would be taking a lot more areas of canada. Unless your somehow being forced either through violnece or because you signed a legal document then you don't have to use it. The only exceptions in my experience to metaplot truly ruing a game is the old world of darkness and Chaos Earth. Where the world was going to end nothing could stop it. Same thing with Chaos Earth. No reason to play that rpg either because you can't stop the collapse of the world. Not only that your argument about not advancing canon or metaplot in rifts does not hold water in that we have seen advances in metaplot. Small ones to be sure yet they are there. As a player and gm you may not like or even want them in the game yet metaplot and canon exists already in rifts from the start.

Let me put it to you in another way. Which would you find more useful. Meta plot or more raw material for stories. IE story or various factions and geographic info along with equipment, NPCs with backgrounds etc.?

I would like to see a mix of all. Less equipment because we have too much of it.

[Subjugator]

I think the difference between "A" and "The" are lost upon you...you can skew everything i say how ever you want...it doesn't change anything...if the CS is the "favorite" character, and the "ideal" of the Rifts world, that is actually pretty sad...

I can tell the difference quite well. You said 'Any author will tell you the worst part of writing can be killing off a favorite character' while discussing Siege of Tolkeen, from which anyone reading that would reasonably think Tolkeen is being referred to given it was 'killed off', but Tolkeen has never been the favorite character for Palladium it's the CS. While Tolkeen is certainly the favorite of some they didn't write it's death, and the way it's death was written just emphasized that the CS is the favorite character. So I'm not the one skewing anything.

He is saying that Tolkeen was *A* favorite character...a major player and force for good in the world setting that the fans loved. He's saying there were other ways for the Coalition to win the war...maybe the survivors of Tolkeen moved further north, or west, or east, or went into an alternate dimension or got the backing of a major intelligence that protected them, or a hundred other things that didn't involve the destruction of the CS, kept the CS winning, but didn't remove Tolkeen from the game.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Tolkeen isn't the favorite character with plot immunity the CS is.

Nightmask, this is deceptive or ill-informed. Kevin himself has told me that the Coalition States do not have plot immunity. I can quote him as saying as much.

Nothing deceptive about it, nor is it ill-informed as we've nothing to go on but what we've seen in the books for how the CS is handled. Any statements on your part about Kevin having said they don't have it is irrelevant as the validity of that can't be verified and has no more weight than if I or anyone else (outside of the mods) said Kevin said something.

I seriously doubt he'd make ANYTHING in the game inviolate, so long as it was good for the story. That's his thing...the story. Notice how rich and amazing the Megaverse is?

Story.

I've not heard him say so, but I'll bet you the Palladium book of your choice (that's under current publication at the time of bet fulfillment) that he'd back up Nightmask and not you.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Correct, but I think maybe in PFRPG 1st edition, it did do damage (maybe it is listed in 1st ed Monsters and Animals or was in BTS-1st), Because we used Globe of Daylight pre Vampire Kingdoms (1st) to kill vampires back then. I just have this thing in the back of my head that at one time it had a damage amount for it.

It never did damage to them...I've been playing Rifts for God knows how long and they've never taken damage from Globe of Daylight. It just held them at bay.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

I BELIEVE First Stagers take Half their Total HP each full melee round spent in true daylight in addition to the standard save vs horror not to go crazy. I will have to dig around through VKr in the morning (it's 3:38am here ATM).

Also as I understood it the spell counts as true daylight? I just checked the R:UE dince its on my desk and I see no mention of anything to the contrary?

Page 79 Vampire Kingdoms Revised under Death by sunlight there is a note, that while it does create true daylight it is NOT powerful enough to kill. the origional vampire kingdoms had the same note on page 28. As does every single other vampire statblock in the other palladium games.

Correct, but I think maybe in PFRPG 1st edition, it did do damage (maybe it is listed in 1st ed Monsters and Animals or was in BTS-1st), Because we used Globe of Daylight pre Vampire Kingdoms (1st) to kill vampires back then. I just have this thing in the back of my head that at one time it had a damage amount for it.

FYI: I did find this in BTS-1st, in the vampire description. Sunlight did 6D6 damage and Globe of Daylight did 3D6. So, before Vampire Kingdoms, it was official.

AHHHH! Now I see what you meant - yes, before VK, it did.

/Sub

[Nekira Sudacne]

There has been metaplot from the beginning. Some small and in the case of CS vs tolkeen big. Some of the metaplot has reached it's conclusion and some is still ongoing. AK brought up a good example. The president of the CS was killed off by d-bee terroists. The gargoyles were given a blow by the NGR that they may never recover from. I like that they advanced canon and moved the metaplot slightly forward. As the whole gargoyle vs NGr thing was just going nowhere fast for far too long. Even if I did not like it I can still use the book as I can borrow many things from it. I fail to see why metaplot and altering canon is also automatically a bad thing. Again it needs to be repeated. No one is forcing anyone to use any books with metaplot or canon they don't like. It may not be the answer that some want to hear in this thread yet it does not make it a less valid reason.

Still waiting for posters to tell me the negative of advancing the time line. So far I'm not seeing any reason not to. And no "because I don't like it" is not imo a valid reason. Don't like it dont' use it.

Odd, i'm still waiting for you to tell me the positives. "new things" is not a valid reason, you can do new things without advancing the timeline.

Also, those who are aginst metaplot arn't saying the company dosn't have the right to make a metaplot, that dosn't mean we think them exersing that right is a good idea, however.

[DhAkael]

There has been metaplot from the beginning. Some small and in the case of CS vs tolkeen big. Some of the metaplot has reached it's conclusion and some is still ongoing. AK brought up a good example. The president of the CS was killed off by d-bee terroists. The gargoyles were given a blow by the NGR that they may never recover from. I like that they advanced canon and moved the metaplot slightly forward. As the whole gargoyle vs NGr thing was just going nowhere fast for far too long. Even if I did not like it I can still use the book as I can borrow many things from it. I fail to see why metaplot and altering canon is also automatically a bad thing. Again it needs to be repeated. No one is forcing anyone to use any books with metaplot or canon they don't like. It may not be the answer that some want to hear in this thread yet it does not make it a less valid reason.

Still waiting for posters to tell me the negative of advancing the time line. So far I'm not seeing any reason not to. And no "because I don't like it" is not imo a valid reason. Don't like it dont' use it.

Odd, i'm still waiting for you to tell me the positives. "new things" is not a valid reason, you can do new things without advancing the timeline.

Also, those who are aginst metaplot arn't saying the company dosn't have the right to make a metaplot, that dosn't mean we think them exersing that right is a good idea, however.

As with all things, -sigh- ...Metaplot happens.
The thing one as a GM must do to keep their sanity is to;
1) Make sure all players coming into their game know EXACTLY what will be canon, and what will be ignored.
2) Go through the metaplot(s), and see what can be slavaged as actually logical, and what should and MUST be discarded to maintain the GM's own story-flow.
3) Tell any and all disenters that their; "Opinions are their own, and their games are their own... live and let live. If you do not like deviation from THE WORD, then find another GM and/or group who will adhere to Kevins vision and words."

[Nekira Sudacne]

There has been metaplot from the beginning. Some small and in the case of CS vs tolkeen big. Some of the metaplot has reached it's conclusion and some is still ongoing. AK brought up a good example. The president of the CS was killed off by d-bee terroists. The gargoyles were given a blow by the NGR that they may never recover from. I like that they advanced canon and moved the metaplot slightly forward. As the whole gargoyle vs NGr thing was just going nowhere fast for far too long. Even if I did not like it I can still use the book as I can borrow many things from it. I fail to see why metaplot and altering canon is also automatically a bad thing. Again it needs to be repeated. No one is forcing anyone to use any books with metaplot or canon they don't like. It may not be the answer that some want to hear in this thread yet it does not make it a less valid reason.

Still waiting for posters to tell me the negative of advancing the time line. So far I'm not seeing any reason not to. And no "because I don't like it" is not imo a valid reason. Don't like it dont' use it.

Odd, i'm still waiting for you to tell me the positives. "new things" is not a valid reason, you can do new things without advancing the timeline.

Also, those who are aginst metaplot arn't saying the company dosn't have the right to make a metaplot, that dosn't mean we think them exersing that right is a good idea, however.

As with all things, -sigh- ...Metaplot happens.
The thing one as a GM must do to keep their sanity is to;
1) Make sure all players coming into their game know EXACTLY what will be canon, and what will be ignored.
2) Go through the metaplot(s), and see what can be slavaged as actually logical, and what should and MUST be discarded to maintain the GM's own story-flow.
3) Tell any and all disenters that their; "Opinions are their own, and their games are their own... live and let live. If you do not like deviation from THE WORD, then find another GM and/or group who will adhere to Kevins vision and words."

You say all that as if I don't already do those things. Even if i'm playing a game that has absolutely no metaplot at all I still change things to suit my own game.

the ability to ignore metaplot in no way defends having a metaplot

[Nekira Sudacne]

Let me put it to you in another way. Which would you find more useful. Meta plot or more raw material for stories. IE story or various factions and geographic info along with equipment, NPCs with backgrounds etc.?

But I get material for stories from the metaplot and it gives me a broader understanding of the setting?

You can get stories and a broader understanding of the setting from not-metaplot not-timeline-advancing material too. So....not getting your point.

[Galroth]

I don't mind Meta-plot. What I mind is overuse of certain tropes, like the Idiot Ball. If you have to handicap one or more of the pieces of the story, some people are going to see it and dislike it.

[Damian Magecraft]

Every setting has meta-plot it is inescapable.
Unless the game is settingless there will be meta-plot.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Every setting has meta-plot it is inescapable.
Unless the game is settingless there will be meta-plot.

Ninjas and Superspys dosn't have metaplot.

GURPS has many optional settings but no metaplot in many of them

Nightbane has no metaplot.

The Valley of the Pharoahs (an olllld palladium product from before the megaversal system) had no metaplot

So....yea. it's completely possible to have a setting with no metaplot

[Damian Magecraft]

Every setting has meta-plot it is inescapable.
Unless the game is settingless there will be meta-plot.

Ninjas and Superspys dosn't have metaplot.

GURPS has many optional settings but no metaplot in many of them

Nightbane has no metaplot.

The Valley of the Pharoahs (an olllld palladium product from before the megaversal system) had no metaplot

So....yea. it's completely possible to have a setting with no metaplot

N&SS is settingless...
Gurps itself is settingless (but its settings have built in metaplot)
NB has no MP? what do you call all the NL's plots to conquer the world? Let alone each new book advances the SL a little more each time...
Valley of the Pharoahs... I have no knowledge of this game...

[Daeglan]

Every setting has meta-plot it is inescapable.
Unless the game is settingless there will be meta-plot.

Ninjas and Superspys dosn't have metaplot.

GURPS has many optional settings but no metaplot in many of them

Nightbane has no metaplot.

The Valley of the Pharoahs (an olllld palladium product from before the megaversal system) had no metaplot

So....yea. it's completely possible to have a setting with no metaplot

N&SS is settingless...
Gurps itself is settingless (but its settings have built in metaplot)
NB has no MP? what do you call all the NL's plots to conquer the world? Let alone each new book advances the SL a little more each time...
Valley of the Pharoahs... I have no knowledge of this game...

The GURPS Settings do not have meta plot. They haveNPCs with goals etc. But the story never advances because they leave that to the GM.
Having plots to conquer the world but never having those plots advance means no metaplot just a fleshed out characters that have goals and plans.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Every setting has meta-plot it is inescapable.
Unless the game is settingless there will be meta-plot.

Ninjas and Superspys dosn't have metaplot.

GURPS has many optional settings but no metaplot in many of them

Nightbane has no metaplot.

The Valley of the Pharoahs (an olllld palladium product from before the megaversal system) had no metaplot

So....yea. it's completely possible to have a setting with no metaplot

N&SS is settingless...

It has established organizations that don't exist IRL, magic, Chi-masters who can bench press a tank. It's definatly not earth, it's a setting.

Gurps itself is settingless (but its settings have built in metaplot)

Most settings have exactly one book about them, making advancing metaplot impossible.

NB has no MP? what do you call all the NL's plots to conquer the world? Let alone each new book advances the SL a little more each time...

I call the Nightlords plots to conquer the world plots. they never advance cannonically and their final outcome is never mentioned, which means there's no meta to them. And the books don't advance the story line so much as reveal more about it



ya know, I think the problem might be we are using different defintions of the word metaplot, to me, Metaplot is when a plot mentioned in one book has it's outcome dictacted in another book, or when the book advances the timeline to the point that many of the plots mentioned in book A have to have either succeeded or failed by the new point in time, even if that plot isn't actually mentioned again. In short, any time the outcome of an action taking place in one book is dictated by events in another book.

Note, it IS possible to add to a plot without dictating the outcome. Very breif example group A is plotting something aginst Group B in book 1, in book 2, it reveals that Group C is assisting group B in resisting group A's plot. as long as the new material dosn't actually dictate which side wins, it's not metaplot.

Valley of the Pharoahs... I have no knowledge of this game...

It was a game bought from another person/company and released as a box set. for most of the past decade you could download PDF's for free legally from palladium's cutting room floor as they had no intentions of ever using it again, but once they started putting PDF's up on drive-thu rpg for money, they took it down and started charging again sinse they could now distribute it without paying anything more sinse it was already in PDF form.

[Daeglan]

ya know, I think the problem might be we are using different defintions of the word metaplot, to me, Metaplot is when a plot mentioned in one book has it's outcome dictacted in another book, or when the book advances the timeline to the point that many of the plots mentioned in book A have to have either succeeded or failed by the new point in time, even if that plot isn't actually mentioned again. In short, any time the outcome of an action taking place in one book is dictated by events in another book.

Note, it IS possible to add to a plot without dictating the outcome. Very breif example group A is plotting something aginst Group B in book 1, in book 2, it reveals that Group C is assisting group B in resisting group A's plot. as long as the new material dosn't actually dictate which side wins, it's not metaplot.

This is exactly what I am talking about. And exactly what I don't like. It leads to arguments and problems. Like Player A going hey according to the book that's not how it happens. ETC. Pain in the ass.

An example of What I do like is the way White Wolf in the New World of Darkness did the VII book. It is a bunch of material on how to handle the seven. Several options of how to run them and what they are and what their goals are. But they never actually nail anything down. It is a book of ideas and possibilities. Because they don't nail anything down no player can ever say the seven are X.