This looks like a job for...RIFTS MAN

[Nightmask]

The Fire Nova special ability. It's the final fall back of the APS fire power and it does 10,000 points of damage. Thanks for letting me know of the 1 to 1 I waasn't sure, but now I know. I. Can. Kill. God.

No, you can't. Also to put that power in context use of that ability takes time to build up to AND it's potentially lethal or can leave the character without the power of APS: Fire and cause insanities from the loss. The character CANNOT go around unleashing 10,000 damage fireballs at will or one right after the other, it's a majorly debilitating thing you don't use cavalierly if you want to still have a character to play.

If I'm in a fight with God, I don't think "This move might kill me" will come into play. Because God might kill me. Your point is devoid of meaning when both options are DIE. Sure it takes time to build. that's why I have Intangibility to prevent MOST forms of damage while I wait it out, or invisibility and hide, it has a 100 ft. radius. There are plenty of ridiculous options because Super Powers are ridiculous and poorly written.

Stop moving the goalposts around and trying to compare different things as if they were the same. First, if you're fighting a god then either you've got a killer GM or you've a tough party or some REALLY bad luck and clearly you need the firepower if you've any hope to survive. All your example does is point to why the character SHOULD have the power as he's clearly going up against a major threat and needs all the help he can get to survive or at least heroically sacrifice himself to save the rest of his party as they flee. It doesn't sound like you've any clue at all how any of those powers work or why none of them are such slam dunk 'unstoppable' powers as you keep making them out to be.

[Killer Cyborg]

APS-Fire can one hit kill most things by doing 10,000 MDC flat without any roles.

And that's a great suicide attack that is probably going to kill, mutate, or depower the character in question.
Yes, it's powerful... but it's not something that's likely to come up very often.

Intangibility? I can USE MY POWERS IN THAT STATE AND NEVER BE HURT.

Intangible characters take 1/2 damage from electricity (Call Lightning), and 1/3 damage from heat attacks (plasma, dragon fire, bursters, etc.)
It's not that hard to hurt them in Rifts Earth.

Immortality? You don't die, its a pretty good boost.

Unless somebody kills you, which is the most common form of death in Rifts.

Superpowers are one of the many things in Rifts that is overbalancing to the point of ridiculousness.

Fair enough.
I'd say, though, that it's only some superpowers, in some situations.

[Nightmask]

Lot's of things can kill a glitter-boy, they're not invulnerable.

Yeah, but in one attack while leaving both the gun completely intact and the suit almost completely so? That's a little bit completely ridiculous.

It's called, "Phase Technology"

You need to tell me your source for Phase Tech. on Rifts earth, because NO ONE SELLS IT. Besides, that's not an instant kill. It MIGHT be, but it's not assured since it does SDC/HP and the character might still save vs. coma and death. Plasma to the face? Not so much...

A single. Instant Kill. Super move. With no limiters. No set amounts per day. No isp cost. No bullet cost. No drawbacks in any sense of the word? Yeah. No. I don't think so.

Why wouldn't it be available? Maybe not widely available, maybe not for sale. Center is an inter-dimensional port of commerce. What's to stop a dimensional traveler from going to phase world, getting some phase tech, and bringing it home? I've read at least one HLS that has phase tech on rifts earth.

As for plasma to the face; This eludes that plasma can pass through a glitterboy's armor. Where did you get that from?

I think the original post had someone using the power to turn the actual helmet into plasma, so now the head is converted into basically pure energy to vaporize the pilot. Apparently the threat of the GM doing the same to the PC is being ignored as to why a player likely wouldn't do that.

[Nightmask]

Because the glitterboys armor has been transformed into the plasma. As in, the armor no longer exists and in its place is plasma. White-hot plasma, all over the poor pilots face. Sad. Hilarious, but sad.

Just out of curiosity, how does the one turning the armor to plasma manage to survive? It requires the possessor of that power to be exposed correct? If you're that close you're going to be caught in the effect as well.

[GenThunderfist]

Seriously, it seems obvious you've never actually read any of the powers in the Heroes Unlimited book and have created an unrealistic view on how the powers work and how they'd interact in Rifts (or even HU for that matter).

Alright let's start at the beginning

No, Juicers ARE Super-powered and they DO have Super-powers. Since when did you start thinking that enhanced healing, super-reflexes, and augmented SDC/HP didn't constitute a super-power? They aren't abilities common to humans, if they were you wouldn't have the Juicer class. They're super-powers.

The idea that Juicers are Super-Powered is correct. However, a Juicer does not have SUPER POWERS as a concept. The idea of super powers is a thing completely unattainable by human means and such. Like the idea of magic in this day and age (not Rifts, real life). I can't shoot lasers from my eyeballs and neither can a juicer. Next you will be tell me that 'borgs have super powers too. Just like Batman doesn't have Super Powers, or like Deathstroke doesn't have superpowers. They are both just better than humans. Similar to a Juicer/Crazy. Follow me here, I extrapolated. No Batman is not a Juicer, its the same concept of "Super Powers" vs. "Super Human" or beyond human.

Intangible characters CAN be hurt, and you can't do anything while intangible (Palladium deliberately nerfs the power so you can't pull off Kitty Pryde style attacks leaving lamp posts in people's chests).

Alright, first of all energy attacks that do partial damage can be negated with energy resistance and such. If you want to get out of psionic attacks...well energy resistance takes care of most of the good ones. Otherwise invisibility can take care of the rest and break that necessary line of sight. Finally the only "true" combat limiter on the Intangibility power is for physical attacks because, as I have stated before, it is worded hazier than a Harold and Kumar movie. A fire nova is anything BUT a physical attack like a punch or kick.

Seriously, it seems obvious you've never actually read any of the powers in the Heroes Unlimited book and have created an unrealistic view on how the powers work and how they'd interact in Rifts (or even HU for that matter).

No, I've read them quite well. Enough to know that i will never use them other than to make a GM cry when I tell him that I have decimated his entire campaign in 15 seconds. I'm not being unrealistic, the powers are just that easy to break. Easier than even some of the Canon Rifts material. It just simply isn't balanced well into a world where most every action has an equal and opposite reaction. You want to create a firey beam of doom? 10 ISP. You want to never be hurt because you are Intangible, Invisible, and are throwing fireballs at people? Sorry for standing in your way...

[Jay05]

And personally, I like the general standing treaty that I have with my players right now that as long as none of them intentionally try and break the game I won't make them fight one of a hundred different game breaking characters that I have on the back burner. Unfortunately I fear the inclusion of super powers is too great of a temptation for them and they may walk down a dangerous path that ends in invincible juicers and characters that can make a 100+ strikes in a single attack .
Although superpowers aren't the only thing I limit in this manner. A lot of material I don't usually allow outside it's own setting such as Nightbane, Splicers (personally had a bad experience with that one), and even a few of the dimension books.[/quote] And again "Because I think it's stupid" is overly controlling BS. Further conversation on this topic is pointless. I believe we must agree to disagree here.[/quote]
I'm fine with that, although my players seem to be fine with that reasoning and don't call me over controlling or anywhere near the sort so I'm pretty satisfied with my methods.[/quote] Well, if your players are happy, good for you. And them. However, "Because I think it's stupid so stop asking." Is a response a parent gives children. Are your players your children? Or do they just not mind being treated as such?[/quote]
Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer. Or put another way, you ask me something I think is stupid and I'm pretty much going to blatantly tell you that. Now there are several subtle differences between my players and children:
1) A parent speaks to a child in this manner because they wish the child to stop asking them, usually without reason. If I am blocking something because it is stupid, then there is a reason that I think it is stupid and I am completely willing to explain and even delegate over it. After the game of course, since we're kinda in the middle of a game here. (On a side note: Splicers have a think that lets them take half damage from impalement, I think that's stupid.)
2) A parent does not consider a child's opinion. I on the other hand am willing to hear your reasons for why any one ability is in fact, not stupid.
3) My players often know that what they are asking me is stupid, and are just asking to see if I am going to let them get away with it.
4) My players can eat a whole bag of Doritos in one sitting
5) My players enjoy the game, and since they don't ask many stupid questions then usually we don't get into these kinds of discussions.
6) I am a fair and benevolent overlord, and as such I let them undertake a good amount of shinannigans. For example, I am having a difficult time killing a player in my Dead Reign game because he focused entirely on melee combat and his bonuses are so high. He knows it and keeps silently taunting me, so I will have little regret when I finally manage to put the bugger down (he's been close a few times so I know it's coming soon). On the other hand I also reward him every time he lives so who really know right?[/quote 1 and 2]

Just because you "think" something's stupid does not make it so.3, ok fine good for them. 4. irrelevant. 5. As I said if they're happy ok. I certainly wouldn't be but your backhanded way of saying my opinion is stupid is enough to let me know we could never roleplay together. For which I'm freaking thankful at this point. Fair and benevolent?

[GenThunderfist]

The Fire Nova special ability. It's the final fall back of the APS fire power and it does 10,000 points of damage. Thanks for letting me know of the 1 to 1 I waasn't sure, but now I know. I. Can. Kill. God.

No, you can't. Also to put that power in context use of that ability takes time to build up to AND it's potentially lethal or can leave the character without the power of APS: Fire and cause insanities from the loss. The character CANNOT go around unleashing 10,000 damage fireballs at will or one right after the other, it's a majorly debilitating thing you don't use cavalierly if you want to still have a character to play.

I stand corrected, I'd forgotten about the nova. and Nightmask is correct here, you use that sub power you auto-roll on a table that has 1-10% shuts the power off for a month, 11-25 pc loses the power permanently, with no replacement, 26-40 pc survives but burns out ALL powers, 41-85 the character is ATOMIZED, 86-100 character survives, but the power is lost and replaced by a new major power. and as Mask said must roll on the random insanity table. Not something most would do repeatedly. And certainly not frequently.

As I stated in the example multiple times. I am literally trying to kill God here. I'm not worried about death. It was a known fact when I entered the fight. This is me winning the fight at *only* a 40% chance of death, which is pretty good odds considering I went in with about 100% chance.

[Killer Cyborg]

Seriously, it seems obvious you've never actually read any of the powers in the Heroes Unlimited book and have created an unrealistic view on how the powers work and how they'd interact in Rifts (or even HU for that matter).

Alright let's start at the beginning

No, Juicers ARE Super-powered and they DO have Super-powers. Since when did you start thinking that enhanced healing, super-reflexes, and augmented SDC/HP didn't constitute a super-power? They aren't abilities common to humans, if they were you wouldn't have the Juicer class. They're super-powers.

The idea that Juicers are Super-Powered is correct. However, a Juicer does not have SUPER POWERS as a concept. The idea of super powers is a thing completely unattainable by human means and such. Like the idea of magic in this day and age (not Rifts, real life). I can't shoot lasers from my eyeballs and neither can a juicer. Next you will be tell me that 'borgs have super powers too. Just like Batman doesn't have Super Powers, or like Deathstroke doesn't have superpowers. They are both just better than humans. Similar to a Juicer/Crazy. Follow me here, I extrapolated. No Batman is not a Juicer, its the same concept of "Super Powers" vs. "Super Human" or beyond human.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.c ... ability%29
There is no rigid definition of a "superpower," and it can encompass anything from minimal exaggeration of normal human traits, to near-godlike abilities including flight, projection of destructive energy beams and force fields, invulnerability, telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation, super-speed or control of the weather, to name only a bare handful. Generally speaking, exceptional-but-not-superhuman characters like Sherlock Holmes, Doc Savage, Batman, and Green Arrow may be superheroes, but do not have any actual superpowers. Similarly, characters who derive their abilities from artificial, external sources—the Six Million Dollar Man and his bionic limbs, Green Lantern and his power ring and Iron Man's armor, and Captain Olimar's Pikmin may be fairly described as having superpowers, but are not necessarily superhuman.

[GenThunderfist]

APS-Fire can one hit kill most things by doing 10,000 MDC flat without any roles.

And that's a great suicide attack that is probably going to kill, mutate, or depower the character in question.
Yes, it's powerful... but it's not something that's likely to come up very often.

Yes, I was only using it to prove that I can kill a God. In which case I'm not worried about my death. It was only an example to expound upon the point that superpowers are by and large quite ridiculous because they convert poorly, and the few that convert ok at best are written hazily and can be broken due to missing limiters like those that are put on similar if not weaker psionic counterparts.

Intangibility? I can USE MY POWERS IN THAT STATE AND NEVER BE HURT.

Intangible characters take 1/2 damage from electricity (Call Lightning), and 1/3 damage from heat attacks (plasma, dragon fire, bursters, etc.)
It's not that hard to hurt them in Rifts Earth.

However, if I take energy resistance and such I just negate that and call it good. It's pretty easy to skirt those damages using super powers.

Immortality? You don't die, its a pretty good boost.

Unless somebody kills you, which is the most common form of death in Rifts.

No, I totally agree here, I'm just saying if I avoid death form unatrual causes it's a pretty good boost to know nothing else will kill me.

Superpowers are one of the many things in Rifts that is overbalancing to the point of ridiculousness.

Fair enough.
I'd say, though, that it's only some superpowers, in some situations.

[/quote]

I'm glad you agree, I just happen to see it as most super powers in almost all situations. I mean, you get super powers and you basically win at Rifts. I'm not saying ALL super powers are terrible. However, since most of the onse that I wouldn't mind letting through are attainable other, more feasable, ways within the Rifts system, why let them in at all really.

[GenThunderfist]

I must have missed the power that allows one to turn armor to plasma.

It's transmuation. You get to pick the state of matter, plasma is a state of matter.

[Nightmask]

The Fire Nova special ability. It's the final fall back of the APS fire power and it does 10,000 points of damage. Thanks for letting me know of the 1 to 1 I waasn't sure, but now I know. I. Can. Kill. God.

No, you can't. Also to put that power in context use of that ability takes time to build up to AND it's potentially lethal or can leave the character without the power of APS: Fire and cause insanities from the loss. The character CANNOT go around unleashing 10,000 damage fireballs at will or one right after the other, it's a majorly debilitating thing you don't use cavalierly if you want to still have a character to play.

I stand corrected, I'd forgotten about the nova. and Nightmask is correct here, you use that sub power you auto-roll on a table that has 1-10% shuts the power off for a month, 11-25 pc loses the power permanently, with no replacement, 26-40 pc survives but burns out ALL powers, 41-85 the character is ATOMIZED, 86-100 character survives, but the power is lost and replaced by a new major power. and as Mask said must roll on the random insanity table. Not something most would do repeatedly. And certainly not frequently.

As I stated in the example multiple times. I am literally trying to kill God here. I'm not worried about death. It was a known fact when I entered the fight. This is me winning the fight at *only* a 40% chance of death, which is pretty good odds considering I went in with about 100% chance.

Such an absurd example you're tossing out, a battle without context and where you deliberately try and pretend context doesn't matter when in fact it does as you try and make it out as something utterly simplistic. If a character is fighting a god there must be a reason for it (certainly the greek gods gave plenty of reasons), the character must have considerable resources to have even managed to find the god, fight through its minions, and get close enough to try and pull a 'taking you with me' suicide fireball attack that in most cases save with the weakest of gods is certain to fail. Such a scenario would have people laughing at a GM who allowed for such a scenario to take place rather than focusing on the character final fireballing a god for 10k in damage.

[GenThunderfist]

Seriously, it seems obvious you've never actually read any of the powers in the Heroes Unlimited book and have created an unrealistic view on how the powers work and how they'd interact in Rifts (or even HU for that matter).

Alright let's start at the beginning

No, Juicers ARE Super-powered and they DO have Super-powers. Since when did you start thinking that enhanced healing, super-reflexes, and augmented SDC/HP didn't constitute a super-power? They aren't abilities common to humans, if they were you wouldn't have the Juicer class. They're super-powers.

The idea that Juicers are Super-Powered is correct. However, a Juicer does not have SUPER POWERS as a concept. The idea of super powers is a thing completely unattainable by human means and such. Like the idea of magic in this day and age (not Rifts, real life). I can't shoot lasers from my eyeballs and neither can a juicer. Next you will be tell me that 'borgs have super powers too. Just like Batman doesn't have Super Powers, or like Deathstroke doesn't have superpowers. They are both just better than humans. Similar to a Juicer/Crazy. Follow me here, I extrapolated. No Batman is not a Juicer, its the same concept of "Super Powers" vs. "Super Human" or beyond human.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.c ... ability%29
There is no rigid definition of a "superpower," and it can encompass anything from minimal exaggeration of normal human traits, to near-godlike abilities including flight, projection of destructive energy beams and force fields, invulnerability, telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation, super-speed or control of the weather, to name only a bare handful. Generally speaking, exceptional-but-not-superhuman characters like Sherlock Holmes, Doc Savage, Batman, and Green Arrow may be superheroes, but do not have any actual superpowers. Similarly, characters who derive their abilities from artificial, external sources—the Six Million Dollar Man and his bionic limbs, Green Lantern and his power ring and Iron Man's armor, and Captain Olimar's Pikmin may be fairly described as having superpowers, but are not necessarily superhuman.

By that definition every one in the Rifts system...short of some adventurers...are super heroes and as such I have no reason to allow HU into my game because you already have super powers in Rifts, available to you.

[taalismn]

[ If a character is fighting a god there must be a reason for it (certainly the greek gods gave plenty of reasons), the character must have considerable resources to have even managed to find the god, fight through its minions, and get close enough to try and pull a 'taking you with me' suicide fireball attack that in most cases save with the weakest of gods is certain to fail. Such a scenario would have people laughing at a GM who allowed for such a scenario to take place rather than focusing on the character final fireballing a god for 10k in damage.

That's why you wait until the god goes out drinking, gets good and soused, gets up to go use the bathroom. THEN that's when you ambush said god while he's in a bathroom stall witjout room to maneuver, no minions to get in the way, and him too drunk to see you coming.
And THAT'S when every water fixture in the room sprouts a Water Elemental warrior....because even drunk, most gods can kick your arse.
Better to wait until he's out grocery shopping and has his arms full of shopping bags...

[Killer Cyborg]

APS-Fire can one hit kill most things by doing 10,000 MDC flat without any roles.

And that's a great suicide attack that is probably going to kill, mutate, or depower the character in question.
Yes, it's powerful... but it's not something that's likely to come up very often.

Yes, I was only using it to prove that I can kill a God.

Well, a god that's vulnerable to heat attacks, anyway.

Intangibility? I can USE MY POWERS IN THAT STATE AND NEVER BE HURT.

Intangible characters take 1/2 damage from electricity (Call Lightning), and 1/3 damage from heat attacks (plasma, dragon fire, bursters, etc.)
It's not that hard to hurt them in Rifts Earth.

However, if I take energy resistance and such I just negate that and call it good. It's pretty easy to skirt those damages using super powers.

Energy Resistance would only negate the first 20 MD per encounter, and reduce damage to 1/4 of the total beyond that point.
You'd need Energy Absorbtion or something in order to entirely negate the damage, and that would be a second major power you'd be eating up.
And you'd still be vulnerable to psionic attacks, magic, and possibly some other stuff.

I get your basic point, though, that this would be quite powerful, and that super powers can easily be used to create over-powered characters.
But, as you said, they're not the only thing in Rifts that does.
Also, not all super powers are so easily abused; some powers are relatively benign.

Impervious to Fire/Heat, for example, is a super power that Bursters and many, many creatures already effectively have for free.
Same with Invisibility, and a number of other powers.
Healing Factor on a SDC being isn't going to make or break the game.
If you can kill a god with Holographic Memory Projection, you probably deserve the win.

It's the carte blanche approach, banning ALL super powers, that I think is a bit extreme.

I'm just saying if I avoid death form unatrual causes it's a pretty good boost to know nothing else will kill me.

True, which is one reason why a lot of my Rifts characters try to become immortal one way or the other, if they can.
But of the ones who have achieved it, none so far have used the super power; there are other ways to do it.
Heck, there are some races that start off as effectively immortal, or as actually immortal.

I mean, you get super powers and you basically win at Rifts. I'm not saying ALL super powers are terrible. However, since most of the onse that I wouldn't mind letting through are attainable other, more feasable, ways within the Rifts system, why let them in at all really.

See, I'd say that since they're attainable in other ways, why NOT let them in?

[GenThunderfist]

Such an absurd example you're tossing out, a battle without context and where you deliberately try and pretend context doesn't matter when in fact it does as you try and make it out as something utterly simplistic. If a character is fighting a god there must be a reason for it (certainly the greek gods gave plenty of reasons), the character must have considerable resources to have even managed to find the god, fight through its minions, and get close enough to try and pull a 'taking you with me' suicide fireball attack that in most cases save with the weakest of gods is certain to fail. Such a scenario would have people laughing at a GM who allowed for such a scenario to take place rather than focusing on the character final fireballing a god for 10k in damage.

What does context have to do with the fact that I have the power to one hit kill God? I never said I was writting a story here. Just an example. I don't care about WHY he want's to kill God. Maybe he's an atheist and beleive's God's an imposter, what do I care? I am mearly giving an example where a Super Power is so ridiculous when put into the Rifts system that it kills most everything in a single blow. And I could technically just ahve a team of these guys all going Nova at once....take that planet

[Killer Cyborg]

Seriously, it seems obvious you've never actually read any of the powers in the Heroes Unlimited book and have created an unrealistic view on how the powers work and how they'd interact in Rifts (or even HU for that matter).

Alright let's start at the beginning

No, Juicers ARE Super-powered and they DO have Super-powers. Since when did you start thinking that enhanced healing, super-reflexes, and augmented SDC/HP didn't constitute a super-power? They aren't abilities common to humans, if they were you wouldn't have the Juicer class. They're super-powers.

The idea that Juicers are Super-Powered is correct. However, a Juicer does not have SUPER POWERS as a concept. The idea of super powers is a thing completely unattainable by human means and such. Like the idea of magic in this day and age (not Rifts, real life). I can't shoot lasers from my eyeballs and neither can a juicer. Next you will be tell me that 'borgs have super powers too. Just like Batman doesn't have Super Powers, or like Deathstroke doesn't have superpowers. They are both just better than humans. Similar to a Juicer/Crazy. Follow me here, I extrapolated. No Batman is not a Juicer, its the same concept of "Super Powers" vs. "Super Human" or beyond human.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.c ... ability%29
There is no rigid definition of a "superpower," and it can encompass anything from minimal exaggeration of normal human traits, to near-godlike abilities including flight, projection of destructive energy beams and force fields, invulnerability, telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation, super-speed or control of the weather, to name only a bare handful. Generally speaking, exceptional-but-not-superhuman characters like Sherlock Holmes, Doc Savage, Batman, and Green Arrow may be superheroes, but do not have any actual superpowers. Similarly, characters who derive their abilities from artificial, external sources—the Six Million Dollar Man and his bionic limbs, Green Lantern and his power ring and Iron Man's armor, and Captain Olimar's Pikmin may be fairly described as having superpowers, but are not necessarily superhuman.

By that definition every one in the Rifts system...short of some adventurers...are super heroes and as such I have no reason to allow HU into my game because you already have super powers in Rifts, available to you.

Uh... no, they're not necessarily super heroes, just people with super powers.
And the point is that since it's already there, it seems silly to ban it on principle.

It's kind of like saying, "Well, since there are normal humans on Rifts Earth already, I have no reason to allow normal humans from other dimensions or game books to end up on Rifts Earth."

[Killer Cyborg]

Bio-Manipulation can also on-hit-kill a God, for that matter.
As can Domination and any number of other spells, or psychic powers, etc.

[Nightmask]

Seriously, it seems obvious you've never actually read any of the powers in the Heroes Unlimited book and have created an unrealistic view on how the powers work and how they'd interact in Rifts (or even HU for that matter).

Alright let's start at the beginning

No, Juicers ARE Super-powered and they DO have Super-powers. Since when did you start thinking that enhanced healing, super-reflexes, and augmented SDC/HP didn't constitute a super-power? They aren't abilities common to humans, if they were you wouldn't have the Juicer class. They're super-powers.

The idea that Juicers are Super-Powered is correct. However, a Juicer does not have SUPER POWERS as a concept. The idea of super powers is a thing completely unattainable by human means and such. Like the idea of magic in this day and age (not Rifts, real life). I can't shoot lasers from my eyeballs and neither can a juicer. Next you will be tell me that 'borgs have super powers too. Just like Batman doesn't have Super Powers, or like Deathstroke doesn't have superpowers. They are both just better than humans. Similar to a Juicer/Crazy. Follow me here, I extrapolated. No Batman is not a Juicer, its the same concept of "Super Powers" vs. "Super Human" or beyond human.

They can't be both super-powered and not have super-powers. Deathstroke btw does have super-powers like his counterpart in Marvel Deadpool. If you're super-human you've got super-powers, even if it's very minor.

Intangible characters CAN be hurt, and you can't do anything while intangible (Palladium deliberately nerfs the power so you can't pull off Kitty Pryde style attacks leaving lamp posts in people's chests).

Alright, first of all energy attacks that do partial damage can be negated with energy resistance and such. If you want to get out of psionic attacks...well energy resistance takes care of most of the good ones. Otherwise invisibility can take care of the rest and break that necessary line of sight. Finally the only "true" combat limiter on the Intangibility power is for physical attacks because, as I have stated before, it is worded hazier than a Harold and Kumar movie. A fire nova is anything BUT a physical attack like a punch or kick.

Energy Resistance can't stop all those energy attacks, and Invisibility won't stop anything it just helps you avoid being shot in the first place. The Intangibility won't do you any good as you require EIGHT melees of total concentration, you don't have the ability to maintain the Intangibility at the same time as you try and count up to Super Nova. You're still vulnerable completely to gas attacks as well while Intangible, great time to break out stuff like nerve gas or toxic magical clouds.

Seriously, it seems obvious you've never actually read any of the powers in the Heroes Unlimited book and have created an unrealistic view on how the powers work and how they'd interact in Rifts (or even HU for that matter).

No, I've read them quite well. Enough to know that i will never use them other than to make a GM cry when I tell him that I have decimated his entire campaign in 15 seconds. I'm not being unrealistic, the powers are just that easy to break. Easier than even some of the Canon Rifts material. It just simply isn't balanced well into a world where most every action has an equal and opposite reaction. You want to create a firey beam of doom? 10 ISP. You want to never be hurt because you are Intangible, Invisible, and are throwing fireballs at people? Sorry for standing in your way...

Given all the messed up and flawed examples you keep tossing out you need to be reading them again given all the vulnerabilities and flaws you keep omitting. An Intangible, Invisible, APS: Fire character can still be hurt and can't toss around fireballs while intangible because those are still physical attacks and you can't attack someone with physical powers while Intangible. Trying to spin things otherwise by going for absurd reaches on what the text means just shows how desperately you're reaching trying to justify a position that's flawed.

[GenThunderfist]

APS-Fire can one hit kill most things by doing 10,000 MDC flat without any roles.

And that's a great suicide attack that is probably going to kill, mutate, or depower the character in question.
Yes, it's powerful... but it's not something that's likely to come up very often.

Yes, I was only using it to prove that I can kill a God.

Well, a god that's vulnerable to heat attacks, anyway.

Intangibility? I can USE MY POWERS IN THAT STATE AND NEVER BE HURT.

Intangible characters take 1/2 damage from electricity (Call Lightning), and 1/3 damage from heat attacks (plasma, dragon fire, bursters, etc.)
It's not that hard to hurt them in Rifts Earth.

However, if I take energy resistance and such I just negate that and call it good. It's pretty easy to skirt those damages using super powers.

Energy Resistance would only negate the first 20 MD per encounter, and reduce damage to 1/4 of the total beyond that point.
You'd need Energy Absorbtion or something in order to entirely negate the damage, and that would be a second major power you'd be eating up.
And you'd still be vulnerable to psionic attacks, magic, and possibly some other stuff.

I get your basic point, though, that this would be quite powerful, and that super powers can easily be used to create over-powered characters.
But, as you said, they're not the only thing in Rifts that does.
Also, not all super powers are so easily abused; some powers are relatively benign.

Impervious to Fire/Heat, for example, is a super power that Bursters and many, many creatures already effectively have for free.
Same with Invisibility, and a number of other powers.
Healing Factor on a SDC being isn't going to make or break the game.
If you can kill a god with Holographic Memory Projection, you probably deserve the win.

It's the carte blanche approach, banning ALL super powers, that I think is a bit extreme.

I'm just saying if I avoid death form unatrual causes it's a pretty good boost to know nothing else will kill me.

True, which is one reason why a lot of my Rifts characters try to become immortal one way or the other, if they can.
But of the ones who have achieved it, none so far have used the super power; there are other ways to do it.
Heck, there are some races that start off as effectively immortal, or as actually immortal.

I mean, you get super powers and you basically win at Rifts. I'm not saying ALL super powers are terrible. However, since most of the onse that I wouldn't mind letting through are attainable other, more feasable, ways within the Rifts system, why let them in at all really.

See, I'd say that since they're attainable in other ways, why NOT let them in?

In all honesty half of this comes from laziness. The point of letting super powers in is to get those God Killing Techniques, but if I remove all those, there are much better ways to get similar abilites. In the end, it goes from "Let's get rid of all these super powerful mega killing techniques" to "why not just be a 'borg or something". I mean, you get similar effects in more efficient ways is all I'm saying, and most of the people who want Supers in the game are grabbing the really powerful stuff anway. I'm not saying they are all broken, or at least I didn't try to. I'm saying I ban them because it's easier than saying "No, you can only have this, this and this" and getting the response of "Why don't I just play a Burster and have more usability"

[Killer Cyborg]

See, I'd say that since they're attainable in other ways, why NOT let them in?

In all honesty half of this comes from laziness.

Fair enough.

[Nightmask]

Seriously, it seems obvious you've never actually read any of the powers in the Heroes Unlimited book and have created an unrealistic view on how the powers work and how they'd interact in Rifts (or even HU for that matter).

Alright let's start at the beginning

No, Juicers ARE Super-powered and they DO have Super-powers. Since when did you start thinking that enhanced healing, super-reflexes, and augmented SDC/HP didn't constitute a super-power? They aren't abilities common to humans, if they were you wouldn't have the Juicer class. They're super-powers.

The idea that Juicers are Super-Powered is correct. However, a Juicer does not have SUPER POWERS as a concept. The idea of super powers is a thing completely unattainable by human means and such. Like the idea of magic in this day and age (not Rifts, real life). I can't shoot lasers from my eyeballs and neither can a juicer. Next you will be tell me that 'borgs have super powers too. Just like Batman doesn't have Super Powers, or like Deathstroke doesn't have superpowers. They are both just better than humans. Similar to a Juicer/Crazy. Follow me here, I extrapolated. No Batman is not a Juicer, its the same concept of "Super Powers" vs. "Super Human" or beyond human.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.c ... ability%29
There is no rigid definition of a "superpower," and it can encompass anything from minimal exaggeration of normal human traits, to near-godlike abilities including flight, projection of destructive energy beams and force fields, invulnerability, telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation, super-speed or control of the weather, to name only a bare handful. Generally speaking, exceptional-but-not-superhuman characters like Sherlock Holmes, Doc Savage, Batman, and Green Arrow may be superheroes, but do not have any actual superpowers. Similarly, characters who derive their abilities from artificial, external sources—the Six Million Dollar Man and his bionic limbs, Green Lantern and his power ring and Iron Man's armor, and Captain Olimar's Pikmin may be fairly described as having superpowers, but are not necessarily superhuman.

By that definition every one in the Rifts system...short of some adventurers...are super heroes and as such I have no reason to allow HU into my game because you already have super powers in Rifts, available to you.

Only if you've some offbeat notion that super-powers=super-heroes which isn't a valid position. Having super-powers or being super-powered does not equate to the super-hero genre, the super-hero genre is simply one genre where super-powers exist. Supernatural horror stories also have super-powers, commonly telekinesis and telepathy, but no one would ever try and claim that they are actually super-hero stories featuring super-villains.

[Athos]

The worst munchkin characters I have seen in Rifts ALL THREE were HU2 based PCs. Now when someone says they want to play a HU2 character in Rifts, it is an automatic red flag. Your experience may be different, you may think it is mean to not allow it, in your games, you are welcome to allow them if you actually do GM, but in my games, no thanks.

Munchkins need not apply...

Don't go painting everyone a munchkin because they want a super just because you had a few characters you felt were overpowered be created using the Heroes Unlimited setting for super-heroes. Nobody wants to be insulted like that because someone else was a problem. Munchkin is a behavior and they'll abuse playing a Rogue Scholar or Mystic just as much as they will a super-human from HU, they're optimized around abusing whatever they have at hand.

Not sure how you figure I am PAINTING EVERYONE A MUNCHKIN... if you feel I painted you a munchkin, that's on you, not on me. Go back and read my post.

For me, it's a red flag when someone wants to play a HU2 character in Rifts. Why? Because I have seen some terrible characters created using the HU2 rules. In fact, it is usually just easier for me to say no cross-over characters from other games, than to go into 30 minute arguments on why immortality or whatever is overpowered for this particular game.

I work hard to keep munchkins from ruining my games for my other players. You don't have to agree with me on this, it is my prerogative as GM to do this in my games.

[GenThunderfist]

Seriously, it seems obvious you've never actually read any of the powers in the Heroes Unlimited book and have created an unrealistic view on how the powers work and how they'd interact in Rifts (or even HU for that matter).

Alright let's start at the beginning

No, Juicers ARE Super-powered and they DO have Super-powers. Since when did you start thinking that enhanced healing, super-reflexes, and augmented SDC/HP didn't constitute a super-power? They aren't abilities common to humans, if they were you wouldn't have the Juicer class. They're super-powers.

The idea that Juicers are Super-Powered is correct. However, a Juicer does not have SUPER POWERS as a concept. The idea of super powers is a thing completely unattainable by human means and such. Like the idea of magic in this day and age (not Rifts, real life). I can't shoot lasers from my eyeballs and neither can a juicer. Next you will be tell me that 'borgs have super powers too. Just like Batman doesn't have Super Powers, or like Deathstroke doesn't have superpowers. They are both just better than humans. Similar to a Juicer/Crazy. Follow me here, I extrapolated. No Batman is not a Juicer, its the same concept of "Super Powers" vs. "Super Human" or beyond human.

They can't be both super-powered and not have super-powers. Deathstroke btw does have super-powers like his counterpart in Marvel Deadpool. If you're super-human you've got super-powers, even if it's very minor.

Intangible characters CAN be hurt, and you can't do anything while intangible (Palladium deliberately nerfs the power so you can't pull off Kitty Pryde style attacks leaving lamp posts in people's chests).

Alright, first of all energy attacks that do partial damage can be negated with energy resistance and such. If you want to get out of psionic attacks...well energy resistance takes care of most of the good ones. Otherwise invisibility can take care of the rest and break that necessary line of sight. Finally the only "true" combat limiter on the Intangibility power is for physical attacks because, as I have stated before, it is worded hazier than a Harold and Kumar movie. A fire nova is anything BUT a physical attack like a punch or kick.

Energy Resistance can't stop all those energy attacks, and Invisibility won't stop anything it just helps you avoid being shot in the first place. The Intangibility won't do you any good as you require EIGHT melees of total concentration, you don't have the ability to maintain the Intangibility at the same time as you try and count up to Super Nova. You're still vulnerable completely to gas attacks as well while Intangible, great time to break out stuff like nerve gas or toxic magical clouds.

Seriously, it seems obvious you've never actually read any of the powers in the Heroes Unlimited book and have created an unrealistic view on how the powers work and how they'd interact in Rifts (or even HU for that matter).

No, I've read them quite well. Enough to know that i will never use them other than to make a GM cry when I tell him that I have decimated his entire campaign in 15 seconds. I'm not being unrealistic, the powers are just that easy to break. Easier than even some of the Canon Rifts material. It just simply isn't balanced well into a world where most every action has an equal and opposite reaction. You want to create a firey beam of doom? 10 ISP. You want to never be hurt because you are Intangible, Invisible, and are throwing fireballs at people? Sorry for standing in your way...

Given all the messed up and flawed examples you keep tossing out you need to be reading them again given all the vulnerabilities and flaws you keep omitting. An Intangible, Invisible, APS: Fire character can still be hurt and can't toss around fireballs while intangible because those are still physical attacks and you can't attack someone with physical powers while Intangible. Trying to spin things otherwise by going for absurd reaches on what the text means just shows how desperately you're reaching trying to justify a position that's flawed.

Fireballs arn't physical attacks. It's a heat based attack...like a Burster. They aren't physical at all, and aren't even written that way. Intangibility stays up until I tell it to go away, I just reread it and I see no limiters on time I can keep it up, and Invisibility breaks psionic attacks that could have hurt me but require line of site to even work.

[Nightmask]

Such an absurd example you're tossing out, a battle without context and where you deliberately try and pretend context doesn't matter when in fact it does as you try and make it out as something utterly simplistic. If a character is fighting a god there must be a reason for it (certainly the greek gods gave plenty of reasons), the character must have considerable resources to have even managed to find the god, fight through its minions, and get close enough to try and pull a 'taking you with me' suicide fireball attack that in most cases save with the weakest of gods is certain to fail. Such a scenario would have people laughing at a GM who allowed for such a scenario to take place rather than focusing on the character final fireballing a god for 10k in damage.

What does context have to do with the fact that I have the power to one hit kill God? I never said I was writting a story here. Just an example. I don't care about WHY he want's to kill God. Maybe he's an atheist and beleive's God's an imposter, what do I care? I am mearly giving an example where a Super Power is so ridiculous when put into the Rifts system that it kills most everything in a single blow. And I could technically just ahve a team of these guys all going Nova at once....take that planet

If something cannot occur then it's a moot point without any value whatsoever, so context is quite important. Given your example makes no sense and is so berift of things to make it a believable scenario it's simply not worth considering. It just gets more absurd when you start tossing stuff on, like 'well I can just use a team of them then'. Right, so now suddenly we've gone from one person to a team all of them with the same power and ALL of them suicidal.

[GenThunderfist]

Seriously, it seems obvious you've never actually read any of the powers in the Heroes Unlimited book and have created an unrealistic view on how the powers work and how they'd interact in Rifts (or even HU for that matter).

Alright let's start at the beginning

No, Juicers ARE Super-powered and they DO have Super-powers. Since when did you start thinking that enhanced healing, super-reflexes, and augmented SDC/HP didn't constitute a super-power? They aren't abilities common to humans, if they were you wouldn't have the Juicer class. They're super-powers.

The idea that Juicers are Super-Powered is correct. However, a Juicer does not have SUPER POWERS as a concept. The idea of super powers is a thing completely unattainable by human means and such. Like the idea of magic in this day and age (not Rifts, real life). I can't shoot lasers from my eyeballs and neither can a juicer. Next you will be tell me that 'borgs have super powers too. Just like Batman doesn't have Super Powers, or like Deathstroke doesn't have superpowers. They are both just better than humans. Similar to a Juicer/Crazy. Follow me here, I extrapolated. No Batman is not a Juicer, its the same concept of "Super Powers" vs. "Super Human" or beyond human.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.c ... ability%29
There is no rigid definition of a "superpower," and it can encompass anything from minimal exaggeration of normal human traits, to near-godlike abilities including flight, projection of destructive energy beams and force fields, invulnerability, telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation, super-speed or control of the weather, to name only a bare handful. Generally speaking, exceptional-but-not-superhuman characters like Sherlock Holmes, Doc Savage, Batman, and Green Arrow may be superheroes, but do not have any actual superpowers. Similarly, characters who derive their abilities from artificial, external sources—the Six Million Dollar Man and his bionic limbs, Green Lantern and his power ring and Iron Man's armor, and Captain Olimar's Pikmin may be fairly described as having superpowers, but are not necessarily superhuman.

By that definition every one in the Rifts system...short of some adventurers...are super heroes and as such I have no reason to allow HU into my game because you already have super powers in Rifts, available to you.

Only if you've some offbeat notion that super-powers=super-heroes which isn't a valid position. Having super-powers or being super-powered does not equate to the super-hero genre, the super-hero genre is simply one genre where super-powers exist. Supernatural horror stories also have super-powers, commonly telekinesis and telepathy, but no one would ever try and claim that they are actually super-hero stories featuring super-villains.

Yeah, you know the difference? Spandex. A burster in cargo shorts burns an orphanage and a Freezer wearing a t-shirt and blue jeans stops him. Man what a bad man and lucky that other dude was around to help.

A Burster wearing a red cape and spike shoulder pads does the same thing, and a Freezer wearing a skin tight blue suit with a giant I on the chest stops him. Look at Dr.Burnward and Captain Icicle go.

I didn't even need to go farther than two Rifts sources for that.

[Nightmask]

The worst munchkin characters I have seen in Rifts ALL THREE were HU2 based PCs. Now when someone says they want to play a HU2 character in Rifts, it is an automatic red flag. Your experience may be different, you may think it is mean to not allow it, in your games, you are welcome to allow them if you actually do GM, but in my games, no thanks.

Munchkins need not apply...

Don't go painting everyone a munchkin because they want a super just because you had a few characters you felt were overpowered be created using the Heroes Unlimited setting for super-heroes. Nobody wants to be insulted like that because someone else was a problem. Munchkin is a behavior and they'll abuse playing a Rogue Scholar or Mystic just as much as they will a super-human from HU, they're optimized around abusing whatever they have at hand.

Not sure how you figure I am PAINTING EVERYONE A MUNCHKIN... if you feel I painted you a munchkin, that's on you, not on me. Go back and read my post.

For me, it's a red flag when someone wants to play a HU2 character in Rifts. Why? Because I have seen some terrible characters created using the HU2 rules. In fact, it is usually just easier for me to say no cross-over characters from other games, than to go into 30 minute arguments on why immortality or whatever is overpowered for this particular game.

I work hard to keep munchkins from ruining my games for my other players. You don't have to agree with me on this, it is my prerogative as GM to do this in my games.

I said 'painting everyone a munchkin WHO WANTS A SUPER', since you directly state you consider it a red flag of munchkinism for someone to want a Heroes Unlimited character in Rifts. Which means you automatically consider anyone wanting a HU super to be if not a munchkin showing a desire to be one. I didn't say you were calling me one directly only questioning your blanket labeling of someone wanting such a character in your game as one.

[Jay05]

1 and 2Just because you "think" something's stupid does not make it so.

Correct, but I can tell them that I think it's stupid and they can come back with why they think it isn't. Like when I banned the TSSX-01 shotgun, that debate lasted half a day.

3, ok fine good for them. 4. irrelevant. 5. As I said if they're happy ok. I certainly wouldn't be but your backhanded way of saying my opinion is stupid is enough to let me know we could never roleplay together. For which I'm freaking thankful at this point.

I don't think you're stupid, maybe aggressive, but not stupid. All of your arguments up to this point have been well-founded and reasonable and while they may have seemed stand-offish they where definitely worth consideration. Personally I would say don't knock one of my games until you try it seeing as I get some pretty good reviews from a decent sized group of people, but our meeting IRL is probably unlikely so it's a moot point at best.

Your actual game style may be very fun, and as you say, probably moot unless you game online (I do but I only have time for the one game I'm in Sunday evenings at the moment.) I do tend to be a bit aggressive, it's served me fairly well for the most part so while off putting to some isn't something I see myself changing after all these years. I however believe strongly based on what you've said that you've been been burned by some munchy jerks. And again, my definition of that is someone who deliberately uses exploits of classes, powers, abilities to disrupt game flow, hog all attention and generally be a pain in the butt for everyone involved. If that's the case with Supers, Nightbane, etc that's too bad,you're missing out on a lot of fun that can be had with characters of those types.

[Nightmask]

Only if you've some offbeat notion that super-powers=super-heroes which isn't a valid position. Having super-powers or being super-powered does not equate to the super-hero genre, the super-hero genre is simply one genre where super-powers exist. Supernatural horror stories also have super-powers, commonly telekinesis and telepathy, but no one would ever try and claim that they are actually super-hero stories featuring super-villains.

Yeah, you know the difference? Spandex. A burster in cargo shorts burns an orphanage and a Freezer wearing a t-shirt and blue jeans stops him. Man what a bad man and lucky that other dude was around to help.

A Burster wearing a red cape and spike shoulder pads does the same thing, and a Freezer wearing a skin tight blue suit with a giant I on the chest stops him. Look at Dr.Burnward and Captain Icicle go.

I didn't even need to go farther than two Rifts sources for that.

There's a lot bigger difference than what outfit you're wearing and that power armor pilot running into town saving people is just as much a super-hero then since power armor is definitely seen as a hallmark of super-heroes (you know, like IRON MAN, or STEEL). So all your good PC going around saving the day with their psionics or magic or power armor are ALL Super-heroes then, so I guess your game must not have anything but magic-less, psionics-less, nothing-but-body-armor-and-an-energy-pistol characters because all the rest are super-heroes and super-villains because you can define them ALL in that context if you're going to try and make it out that that super-powers mean they must be super-heroes in spite of how obviously wrong that argument is.

[GenThunderfist]

Only if you've some offbeat notion that super-powers=super-heroes which isn't a valid position. Having super-powers or being super-powered does not equate to the super-hero genre, the super-hero genre is simply one genre where super-powers exist. Supernatural horror stories also have super-powers, commonly telekinesis and telepathy, but no one would ever try and claim that they are actually super-hero stories featuring super-villains.

Yeah, you know the difference? Spandex. A burster in cargo shorts burns an orphanage and a Freezer wearing a t-shirt and blue jeans stops him. Man what a bad man and lucky that other dude was around to help.

A Burster wearing a red cape and spike shoulder pads does the same thing, and a Freezer wearing a skin tight blue suit with a giant I on the chest stops him. Look at Dr.Burnward and Captain Icicle go.

I didn't even need to go farther than two Rifts sources for that.

There's a lot bigger difference than what outfit you're wearing and that power armor pilot running into town saving people is just as much a super-hero then since power armor is definitely seen as a hallmark of super-heroes (you know, like IRON MAN, or STEEL). So all your good PC going around saving the day with their psionics or magic or power armor are ALL Super-heroes then, so I guess your game must not have anything but magic-less, psionics-less, nothing-but-body-armor-and-an-energy-pistol characters because all the rest are super-heroes and super-villains because you can define them ALL in that context if you're going to try and make it out that that super-powers mean they must be super-heroes in spite of how obviously wrong that argument is.

Look you paint and S on anything and get a good publisist and you become a super hero. That's it. None the less HU2 is totally unnecessary.

[The Baron of chaos]

hmmm I'm the first to say that some of the major and some minor powers need more fleshin out and better description(as example EX speed should be better labeled Superhuman speed ) but on overall it all come down quite balanced once you realize that:
Not all power grant Megadamage capability of any type - this could sound surprising but there are only few power that do automatically grant massiva amount of megadamage capability, and most do not compare well with their immediate counterbalance..magic. A mage close to a ley line or at a nexus can do pretty muhc the same or even more than your average superhuman(and i highlight the word AVERAGE that means 3 minor 1 major or 4 minor. Not 3 MAJORS and 2 Minor, that is godling/cosmoknight/elder nighbane/immortal ninja level/future AtB Nuke proof space cyborg bear level!). Of Megdamage worth powers we have Energy based powers(not all), most of the enhanced attributes and Structure(not all! infact healing factor do not make you an MDC being! But unbreakable skeleton probably do...well for the bones at least for what is useful agains megadamage plasma).
Rifts Earth is already filed wiht superhumans on various level to the point that saying "no there is not place for superhumans in rifts earth" is hypocrite and stupid. Just to list the various superhuman
Juicers = extraordinary PS, Extraordinary PP, Healing factor, TRUE extraordinary speed(a max of +60 mph/96 Kmh just saying) with advanced leaping
Crazies= Minor psionic, Heightened sense of hearing, smell, taste, touch and SV advanced sight, EX PS, EX PP, Lighting reflexes, Healing Factor
Cyber Knight(kind of cheating here since some of the power wer einspired by cyber knight themselves)= Energy weapon extension(ok is more powerful to start with, but advance much less in power), Natural Armor rating/cyber armor, Energy shield, Mechanical awareness(integrated in their combat style). At later level they get Cloacking major power , as well bonuses comparable to Natural Combat Ability.
Cyborgs - I am perfectly aware the HU has its cyborgs but i put them down here just for power comparison only. in temrp of Damage Capacity and Strength your average cyborg has the equivalent of APS Metal...with lot more weapons and incapacity to heal(well the "low" tech ones, TW and Phase World ones instead....)
Dragons - hatchling Massive Damage Capacity, Supernatural PS, Shapechange(Major!), Teleport(Major!), Bio-Regeneration(Major!), Minor Psionic, SV: nightvision, SV: Paranoprmal Sight, Invisibility(Major!), Energy expulsion(but do not grow in damage till the next growth spur), and whatever peculiar power the specific race has ...and this is just an hatchling...audlt dragton give anyone a run for their money.
Spellcasters: now this si technically true for Hu as well, not forget. Limiting oneself to spell from level 1 to 4 a mage can have for cheap PPE expense the equivalent of: energy fist(Fist of fury!), EE electricity(electric arc), Personal force field(armor of Ithan), various EE depending on the need, Adhesion(climb), Invisibility(Invisibiity:simple), Energy shield(magic Shield), Shadow Cloack(Cloack of darkness), various sensory powers, Chameleon(Chameleon minos the adhesion), Shadow Meld(duh it was inspired by the spell sherlock, like many superpowers), pretty much any subpower of CEF:fire(cloud of smoke, extinguish fire, Ignite fire, fuel flame, Impervious to fire, fire bolt), EX MA(actually Charismatic aura IS better), Bubble glue(again carpet of adhesion is infinitely superior).
Techno-wizard can create pretty much any and all SUPER tech you could imagine, as i said before. Infact a good rule of thumb could be if can be imagined a Techno-wizard can do it with proper time and funding. Retractable power armor that flow in your bloodstream powered by a small PPE talisman implanted in your chest? Hmm gimme a month and lot of gems and we can DO IT! Hammer that came bakc when thrown, grant supernatural strength and control weather? Dude is so boring i did it years ago(not joking, if the first thing you did when playing a TW is not recreating the hammer of thor or iron man armor, well you are doing it wrong, IMHO)
Shifter: it all depend on your summoned Dim-mon(Dimensional Monster GONNA SUMMON'EM ALL!), Some are quite on the Mega Hero side, but can be troubling, also see spell casters history above, but Shifter generally prefer going all Gary Oak on their opponenet bottom
Psi-stalker: Lighting reflex, minor psionic, Abnormal energy sense, Without sustenance, Animal Brother(except feline), Feral, also recently Personal Force Field(sorta is more natural form of chi gung martial art power)
Dog Boys: Mutant Animals plus Abnormal energy sense, Minor psionics, and Heightened sense of smell instead of advanced

[GenThunderfist]

hmmm I'm the first to say that some of the major and some minor powers need more fleshin out and better description(as example EX speed should be better labeled Superhuman speed ) but on overall it all come down quite balanced once you realize that:
Not all power grant Megadamage capability of any type - this could sound surprising but there are only few power that do automatically grant massiva amount of megadamage capability, and most do not compare well with their immediate counterbalance..magic. A mage close to a ley line or at a nexus can do pretty muhc the same or even more than your average superhuman(and i highlight the word AVERAGE that means 3 minor 1 major or 4 minor. Not 3 MAJORS and 2 Minor, that is godling/cosmoknight/elder nighbane/immortal ninja level/future AtB Nuke proof space cyborg bear level!). Of Megdamage worth powers we have Energy based powers(not all), most of the enhanced attributes and Structure(not all! infact healing factor do not make you an MDC being! But unbreakable skeleton probably do...well for the bones at least for what is useful agains megadamage plasma).
Rifts Earth is already filed wiht superhumans on various level to the point that saying "no there is not place for superhumans in rifts earth" is hypocrite and stupid. Just to list the various superhuman
Juicers = extraordinary PS, Extraordinary PP, Healing factor, TRUE extraordinary speed(a max of +60 mph/96 Kmh just saying) with advanced leaping
Crazies= Minor psionic, Heightened sense of hearing, smell, taste, touch and SV advanced sight, EX PS, EX PP, Lighting reflexes, Healing Factor
Cyber Knight(kind of cheating here since some of the power wer einspired by cyber knight themselves)= Energy weapon extension(ok is more powerful to start with, but advance much less in power), Natural Armor rating/cyber armor, Energy shield, Mechanical awareness(integrated in their combat style). At later level they get Cloacking major power , as well bonuses comparable to Natural Combat Ability.
Cyborgs - I am perfectly aware the HU has its cyborgs but i put them down here just for power comparison only. in temrp of Damage Capacity and Strength your average cyborg has the equivalent of APS Metal...with lot more weapons and incapacity to heal(well the "low" tech ones, TW and Phase World ones instead....)
Dragons - hatchling Massive Damage Capacity, Supernatural PS, Shapechange(Major!), Teleport(Major!), Bio-Regeneration(Major!), Minor Psionic, SV: nightvision, SV: Paranoprmal Sight, Invisibility(Major!), Energy expulsion(but do not grow in damage till the next growth spur), and whatever peculiar power the specific race has ...and this is just an hatchling...audlt dragton give anyone a run for their money.
Spellcasters: now this si technically true for Hu as well, not forget. Limiting oneself to spell from level 1 to 4 a mage can have for cheap PPE expense the equivalent of: energy fist(Fist of fury!), EE electricity(electric arc), Personal force field(armor of Ithan), various EE depending on the need, Adhesion(climb), Invisibility(Invisibiity:simple), Energy shield(magic Shield), Shadow Cloack(Cloack of darkness), various sensory powers, Chameleon(Chameleon minos the adhesion), Shadow Meld(duh it was inspired by the spell sherlock, like many superpowers), pretty much any subpower of CEF:fire(cloud of smoke, extinguish fire, Ignite fire, fuel flame, Impervious to fire, fire bolt), EX MA(actually Charismatic aura IS better), Bubble glue(again carpet of adhesion is infinitely superior).
Techno-wizard can create pretty much any and all SUPER tech you could imagine, as i said before. Infact a good rule of thumb could be if can be imagined a Techno-wizard can do it with proper time and funding. Retractable power armor that flow in your bloodstream powered by a small PPE talisman implanted in your chest? Hmm gimme a month and lot of gems and we can DO IT! Hammer that came bakc when thrown, grant supernatural strength and control weather? Dude is so boring i did it years ago(not joking, if the first thing you did when playing a TW is not recreating the hammer of thor or iron man armor, well you are doing it wrong, IMHO)
Shifter: it all depend on your summoned Dim-mon(Dimensional Monster GONNA SUMMON'EM ALL!), Some are quite on the Mega Hero side, but can be troubling, also see spell casters history above, but Shifter generally prefer going all Gary Oak on their opponenet bottom
Psi-stalker: Lighting reflex, minor psionic, Abnormal energy sense, Without sustenance, Animal Brother(except feline), Feral, also recently Personal Force Field(sorta is more natural form of chi gung martial art power)
Dog Boys: Mutant Animals plus Abnormal energy sense, Minor psionics, and Heightened sense of smell instead of advanced

Like I said, most of the super powers I would allow in the game are already available so why make it redundant and uncessessary. Half of these classes have these powers because they give up something in return (Crazy gives up Sanity, Juicer gives up life). So allowing supers is just a way to give my player bonuses with no cost, and that's pretty **** munchy.

[Nightmask]

hmmm I'm the first to say that some of the major and some minor powers need more fleshin out and better description(as example EX speed should be better labeled Superhuman speed ) but on overall it all come down quite balanced once you realize that:
Not all power grant Megadamage capability of any type - this could sound surprising but there are only few power that do automatically grant massiva amount of megadamage capability, and most do not compare well with their immediate counterbalance..magic. A mage close to a ley line or at a nexus can do pretty muhc the same or even more than your average superhuman(and i highlight the word AVERAGE that means 3 minor 1 major or 4 minor. Not 3 MAJORS and 2 Minor, that is godling/cosmoknight/elder nighbane/immortal ninja level/future AtB Nuke proof space cyborg bear level!). Of Megdamage worth powers we have Energy based powers(not all), most of the enhanced attributes and Structure(not all! infact healing factor do not make you an MDC being! But unbreakable skeleton probably do...well for the bones at least for what is useful agains megadamage plasma).
Rifts Earth is already filed wiht superhumans on various level to the point that saying "no there is not place for superhumans in rifts earth" is hypocrite and stupid. Just to list the various superhuman
Juicers = extraordinary PS, Extraordinary PP, Healing factor, TRUE extraordinary speed(a max of +60 mph/96 Kmh just saying) with advanced leaping
Crazies= Minor psionic, Heightened sense of hearing, smell, taste, touch and SV advanced sight, EX PS, EX PP, Lighting reflexes, Healing Factor
Cyber Knight(kind of cheating here since some of the power wer einspired by cyber knight themselves)= Energy weapon extension(ok is more powerful to start with, but advance much less in power), Natural Armor rating/cyber armor, Energy shield, Mechanical awareness(integrated in their combat style). At later level they get Cloacking major power , as well bonuses comparable to Natural Combat Ability.
Cyborgs - I am perfectly aware the HU has its cyborgs but i put them down here just for power comparison only. in temrp of Damage Capacity and Strength your average cyborg has the equivalent of APS Metal...with lot more weapons and incapacity to heal(well the "low" tech ones, TW and Phase World ones instead....)
Dragons - hatchling Massive Damage Capacity, Supernatural PS, Shapechange(Major!), Teleport(Major!), Bio-Regeneration(Major!), Minor Psionic, SV: nightvision, SV: Paranoprmal Sight, Invisibility(Major!), Energy expulsion(but do not grow in damage till the next growth spur), and whatever peculiar power the specific race has ...and this is just an hatchling...audlt dragton give anyone a run for their money.
Spellcasters: now this si technically true for Hu as well, not forget. Limiting oneself to spell from level 1 to 4 a mage can have for cheap PPE expense the equivalent of: energy fist(Fist of fury!), EE electricity(electric arc), Personal force field(armor of Ithan), various EE depending on the need, Adhesion(climb), Invisibility(Invisibiity:simple), Energy shield(magic Shield), Shadow Cloack(Cloack of darkness), various sensory powers, Chameleon(Chameleon minos the adhesion), Shadow Meld(duh it was inspired by the spell sherlock, like many superpowers), pretty much any subpower of CEF:fire(cloud of smoke, extinguish fire, Ignite fire, fuel flame, Impervious to fire, fire bolt), EX MA(actually Charismatic aura IS better), Bubble glue(again carpet of adhesion is infinitely superior).
Techno-wizard can create pretty much any and all SUPER tech you could imagine, as i said before. Infact a good rule of thumb could be if can be imagined a Techno-wizard can do it with proper time and funding. Retractable power armor that flow in your bloodstream powered by a small PPE talisman implanted in your chest? Hmm gimme a month and lot of gems and we can DO IT! Hammer that came bakc when thrown, grant supernatural strength and control weather? Dude is so boring i did it years ago(not joking, if the first thing you did when playing a TW is not recreating the hammer of thor or iron man armor, well you are doing it wrong, IMHO)
Shifter: it all depend on your summoned Dim-mon(Dimensional Monster GONNA SUMMON'EM ALL!), Some are quite on the Mega Hero side, but can be troubling, also see spell casters history above, but Shifter generally prefer going all Gary Oak on their opponenet bottom
Psi-stalker: Lighting reflex, minor psionic, Abnormal energy sense, Without sustenance, Animal Brother(except feline), Feral, also recently Personal Force Field(sorta is more natural form of chi gung martial art power)
Dog Boys: Mutant Animals plus Abnormal energy sense, Minor psionics, and Heightened sense of smell instead of advanced

Like I said, most of the super powers I would allow in the game are already available so why make it redundant and uncessessary. Half of these classes have these powers because they give up something in return (Crazy gives up Sanity, Juicer gives up life). So allowing supers is just a way to give my player bonuses with no cost, and that's pretty **** munchy.

Most things DON'T have a cost, and not having some big price tag doesn't mean something is inherently munchkin and it's ridiculous to make such a statement. There is no cost to being a Power Armor Pilot, Cyber-Knight, Dragon Hatchling, etc yet lacking a cost doesn't make any of those munchkin. Again, munchkin is a PLAY STYLE, a character is NOT a play style. A power is NOT a play style. Munchkin requires a pattern of abuse of what a player's character has and will happen no matter WHAT they are playing. Just as someone will engage in a Leeroy Jenkins no matter what character they have because that's how they play, the character is not the problem and never will be it's choice of play style. Try and keep that straight.

[say652]

I do not see why people ***** so much about book legal character classes. Especially those written by KS himself. I mean if the designer of the game you're playing obviously doesn't think a class is too powerful to play in Rifts or for a GM to handle, why should anyone else? And to clarify; I'm not referring to min/max bs or outlandish combinations of RCC and OCC that skirt the realms of sanity. I'm referring to classes as written in Canon PB books. And to those who start yelling "but it's not RIFTS", no it's the Palladium Megaverse! The games were designed to crossover. I don't know why people seem to forget or ignore this simple fact. And yes KS provides GM out in every core book where he says something to the effect of if you don't like it don't use it. Ok, fine. It's an out, if one is needed, perhaps a hypothetical gm should take a look at those he/she games with or their own skill level.

They complain because individually they have trouble working them in or dealing with the possibilities they bring to the table, so they just demonize the entire group and ban it as 'too unbalanced' even if all you wanted was a Daredevil-esque dude with enhanced senses and a healing factor. Just as we saw in another thread with complaints about Sixth Sense because 'Oh no however will I deal with things if I can't get away with ambushing a party'.

You can get a Daredevil-esque dude without super powers. All you need is like a juicer, or there are some D-Bees that have advanced healing factors, or a crazy, or a anything with minor psionics and bio-regeneration. You don't need super powers for that. The only thing you NEED super powers for is to one hit kill God.

Juicers ARE super-powered, so are Crazies and that D-bee with an advanced healing factor, and no that's just so utterly wrong a claim it's hard to formulate a proper response to cover how wrong it is. There are NO super-powers that are going to one-hit kill any god or alien intelligence, if there is one that might take out a Glitter Boy in one shot I don't know of it off the top of my head. A character with all senses heightened and a healing factor is NOT going to be one-hit-killing anyone in Rifts, not without using an anti-matter grenade or something else high-powered. It's definitely NOT going to be one-hit-killing a god and most definitely one needed Super-powers to create a character that fulfilled a purpose other than killing powerful beings.

You are looking at the most powerful and destructive super-powers and behaving as if all super-powers are top tier powerful and destructive which is absurd. Even most of the Major powers fail at being particularly destructive (Invisibility, Intangibility, Immortality, Alter Metabolism). You have issues with super-powers in a game filled with super-powered beings, it's unfathomable how you manage to pull that off other than compartmentatlizing and insisting that a super-power isn't really a super-power (when it is) because a character has it from a race or some other way.

Right, that's what I was saying. They are super-powered WITHOUT NEEDING SUPER POWERS. APS-Fire can one hit kill most things by doing 10,000 MDC flat without any roles. That's a STANDARD major power. The Glitter Boy Killer has already been mentioned Transmutation, because it is so loosley limited and defined that it is by all intents and terms broken. As are MOST of the powers in the books short of minor powers, and half of those are pretty arbitrary without limits as well. The powers are so loosley defined at termed that breaking them is as simple as breathing.
Intangibility? I can USE MY POWERS IN THAT STATE AND NEVER BE HURT. Immortality? You don't die, its a pretty good boost. The powers are cool, and interesting, like psionics are, but more powerful x100 because no limits exist. It's ridiculous. Besides, as I know has been said on this board before, it's not like I go around allowing all my players to run off as Godlings either. Superpowers are one of the many things in Rifts that is overbalancing to the point of ridiculousness.

novaburst is kind of a one shot deal. you basically kill yourself and try to take as many as you can with you. sounds like in a game that said you can be anything..............NOT

[GenThunderfist]

novaburst is kind of a one shot deal. you basically kill yourself and try to take as many as you can with you. sounds like in a game that said you can be anything..............NOT

...*sigh*...just read all the posts please. As I have said it is a simple one time example of a very ridiculously powerful power that has only a 40% chance to kill me in a situation where it is almost literally kill or be killed. That's it.

[GenThunderfist]

Most things DON'T have a cost, and not having some big price tag doesn't mean something is inherently munchkin and it's ridiculous to make such a statement. There is no cost to being a Power Armor Pilot, Cyber-Knight, Dragon Hatchling, etc yet lacking a cost doesn't make any of those munchkin. Again, munchkin is a PLAY STYLE, a character is NOT a play style. A power is NOT a play style. Munchkin requires a pattern of abuse of what a player's character has and will happen no matter WHAT they are playing. Just as someone will engage in a Leeroy Jenkins no matter what character they have because that's how they play, the character is not the problem and never will be it's choice of play style. Try and keep that straight.

we have had this same discussion. Verbatum. So just go find it or don't argue it because the same points still apply.
Juicers give up life
Crazies give up Sanity
PA Pilots are next to useless without PA
Cyber-Knights are only perfect in certain situations and have roleplaying stipulations...technically
Dragon Hatchlings are hunted...all the time....
etc. etc.
As I've said all the points have been made before. From me. To you.

[Nightmask]

novaburst is kind of a one shot deal. you basically kill yourself and try to take as many as you can with you. sounds like in a game that said you can be anything..............NOT

...*sigh*...just read all the posts please. As I have said it is a simple one time example of a very ridiculously powerful power that has only a 40% chance to kill me in a situation where it is almost literally kill or be killed. That's it.

There is no 'only', that's nearly half the time, if you do survive you've good odds that you lost ALL your powers or at least lost that one AND you end up with an insanity. Trying to downplay the penalties like that isn't going to get anyone to believe that the power can even remotely end up being used as cavalierly as you suggest, and requires a lot more than a 'well I just made up this scenario that'd never happen in a game just to show how overpowered this would be in a game but given it'd never happen is a moot point'. If you're going to toss out examples at least toss out stuff that's remotely likely to happen in an average game.

[The Baron of chaos]

we have had this same discussion. Verbatum. So just go find it or don't argue it because the same points still apply.
Juicers give up life
Crazies give up Sanity
PA Pilots are next to useless without PA
Cyber-Knights are only perfect in certain situations and have roleplaying stipulations...technically
Dragon Hatchlings are hunted...all the time....
etc. etc.
As I've said all the points have been made before. From me. To you.

Yes, your point is ok, but in HU exist side effect and mutation, albeit to be honest i wish they could have made them much more "solid" as drwback, and perhaps tied better the power to the biology of the user(read so some power are exhaustive, still there are many point to be made)
But you forget, too conveninentily, the Dragons that have very little drawback, hunted all the time? dude is Rifts earth, THERE IS ALWAYS SOMEONE/SOMETHING HUNTING YOU NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE AND WHAT YOU DO, DEAL WITH IT!! Is less drawback that a setting flavor, even a redneck farming the land in middle of nowhere has probably an entity trying tomurder him, if you're one of main classes, well is likley that someeone want to ***kmurder you so much that they can barely sleep. Common hate for each other is what make the Rifts Earth spin. And since you are making your point lemme continue mine.
Faires are overpowered pint size hassle. They are insally tough, strong, and can cast spell like superpower. has anyone porblem wiht them. No
Brutusaurs anre MANY MANY RCC, can be boiled down to Megadamage worth strength and average megadamage being(that cna wear extra megadamage armor let's not forget ), with little or no problem(being hunted for being inhuman is just the normla day by day life in Rifts Earth). has anyone called them overpowered? Perhaps 20 years ago, right now they are LOW powered.
Most recent RCC seem to be made using HU as basis and no one had trouble at all
And for some RCC seem the only way to have some form of natural flight or teleport, since Teleport(self) speel keep on getting FORGOT from the book, despite what Kevin saying it was his fav spell, while there are no many form of natural wingless flight, not many that compare to old good LOUD jetpacks. Look far from me saying that jetpacks are not awesome, but come on, a bit of logic here, some Supernatural monster are too slow flyiers to be the menace everyone call them to be! Make them fly at least as fast as a SAMAS ! And Mind Melters should be able to telekinetically fly, I'm sorry but i found WRONG that they canonically can't! Is WRONG, is...come one can lifta ****mned car, jump half a building, floating like a ****bag in one fixed position. But ohh no flying is too complicated, too hard, too powerfull(yeah sure..let's just say that apart two or three powers most psionic powers and PCC are NOT that powerfull all considered).

There is no 'only', that's nearly half the time, if you do survive you've good odds that you lost ALL your powers or at least lost that one AND you end up with an insanity. Trying to downplay the penalties like that isn't going to get anyone to believe that the power can even remotely end up being used as cavalierly as you suggest, and requires a lot more than a 'well I just made up this scenario that'd never happen in a game just to show how overpowered this would be in a game but given it'd never happen is a moot point'. If you're going to toss out examples at least toss out stuff that's remotely likely to happen in an average game.

Nova is suicide attack, that yes does insane damage but has an area tooo vast(so better use when you're temmates are not around), and can seriously screw you, is still better side effect than being "hunted because you're a monster in Rifts Earth...like every monday in Rifts Earth for anyone looking different...".

[Nightmask]

The good baron of Chaos has unintentionally misquoted things, he's actually responding to things GenThunderfist said in that first quote and not myself for those who didn't realize it.

[The Baron of chaos]

The good baron of Chaos has unintentionally misquoted things, he's actually responding to things GenThunderfist said in that first quote and not myself for those who didn't realize it.

uopps sorry, I am going to correct asap if i can!

[Nightmask]

The good baron of Chaos has unintentionally misquoted things, he's actually responding to things GenThunderfist said in that first quote and not myself for those who didn't realize it.

uopps sorry, I am going to correct asap if i can!

Thanksfully it's not too hard at Palladium to correct mistakes like that. I've had to do it myself a few times.