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Little Snuzzles wrote:I think there's a unfortunate egocentric trend in RPG players to conclude that everyone but them is wrong.

Dude, that's a trend with ALL humans, not just the ones who play RPG's.

Little Snuzzles wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:But catalyst listened and now they are reworking the system (again) .

And, in 3-4 years, they'll probably be reworking it again. And again. And again. They've already changed it several times. At some point, someone needs to say, "Enough! These are our rules, take 'em or leave 'em."

Im not saying palladium should be catalyst games but they do have two video games in the works a board game a new rules set and source books comming out.

I'm glad for them and I also note that every company is different and has different circumstances.

Shadowrun came out in 89 so 24 years, with 5 additions is not bad. That shows they are working on things to make it better. It shows they listen to the players. Rifts has arguably had two editions rmb and rue. More like 1.5 editions.
I dont think its a profit scheme or rip off to have a true 2.0 made. If. On customers that are rpg fans and die hard customers alike have one complaint its the rules.

Sure we on the boards pick things apart to nth degree and argue over tubtext fluff. and the greater meaning of commons like a bunch of bible scholars. But i dont think a revised and updated system would take from the flavor or feel. It would get people talking and cuase people to hopefully buy the books again.

Little Snuzzles wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:For good or ill...
The industry standard has changed.
Some of that standard does need to be adopted.

Why? Every game is different and RPGs are not a legal/political system. If all game systems were 'standardized' every game would look the same and play the same way.

Also, the 'standardization' argument assumes that all players want such a system, when nothing could be farther from the truth. Everyone is different and each person chooses (or modifies) a system that works for them. Tons of people love PB and have no problem with the system. Or, if they do have a problem, they simply modify the rules to suit their game.

I absolutely cannot stand Shadowrun's mechanics; I hate their system. But so what? Catalyst games has no obligation to me, nor I to them. I simply choose not to play Shadowrun. But I don't put out a call that Shadowrun needs to update their rule because why should they? Those who like it use it; those who don't don't.

I think there's a unfortunate egocentric trend in RPG players to conclude that everyone but them is wrong.

The RAW is difficult to follow for newcomers to the hobby. It does not match the RAI. Clean the system.
Re-organize and clarify what already exists. If after that there are holes or breaks (that do not exist industry wide) not only will they be easier to spot but faster to fix.

It's impossible to please everybody. I think PB is smart for not trying to.

convenient...
you left out this part of my post...

Damian Magecraft wrote:I am not saying that palladium needs to change its rules.
Nor am I saying they need a rule for every situation.

When you quote me make sure you dont alter the meaning of my statements by quoting me out of context... that is RUDE and the poorest form of debate.

When this hobby started the rules were not laid out very well in any system.
over the last 35 years the standards for presentation have evolved.
It is time that palladium embraced some of those same standards (note: the word some does not mean all).
The RAW needs to match the RAI.
The layout needs to be more "intuitive".
that is as far the "re-writes" need to go.
If the rules are made more entry friendly more new players will appear.

Little Snuzzles wrote:

Shadow Wyrm wrote:If you want new customers, you must fix problems that customers keep complaining about.

Just curious: how much money and time are you willing to spend to make this happen?

Players are always complaining, but I note that very rarely do they want to do any work themselves. Instead, they expect the publisher to shell out thousands of dollars and thousands of hours of work to please them.

Not exactly an equitable relationship.

I've shelled out the money for every book the company has made in the last 20years. Its not my job to fix the game mechanics, but I do house-rule where I feel is needed. My point is that if the people who buy the books keep asking just how something is supposed to work. It is in the best interest of the company to fix the problem or at least better explain the use of the system. I'm sure Kevin knows how the bonuses for P.B. work, but I have yet to see any set of rules on how to use them. Brand new line of books, copy/paste the core rules in please.

I would like to see the age range of gamers that play Rifts, because I personally don't believe that anyone under the age of 25 plays the game. It's my firm belief that those who currently play the game have probably played it for a very long time, which in essence is a good thing. Unfortunately it doesn't bode well for trying to get new players to try out the game. I think because of the numerous issues that Palladium has had over the years the customer/ fan base is fractured. One on hand you have old school players who only play Palladium games and will only ever play Palladium games. This group sees nothing wrong with the rules and prefer to have the rules as ambiguous as possible. The other group has played other role-playing games and sees that with a little tweaking of the rules how much better Rifts could be. Of course there is nothing wrong with this train of thought, but how can you complain about a lack of new gamers if the game itself hasn't changed in 30+ years? As I've said before I still buy Rifts material when it comes out, but trying to convince new players to try the game is almost nigh impossible. I consider Rifts/ Palladium games to be an antique in the realm of gaming; yes its great that they've manage to keep publishing the game with very few changes, and for better or worse it's this same business model that keeps them where they are.

Little Snuzzles wrote:In other words, the rules are not uber-strict and don't have a contingency table for everything. Look at Rolemaster or Hero System, for instance: they have tables coming out their ass. If you want to throw a water balloon at a pregnant nun, there is a table for it.

Yeah, but the book that lists pregnant nuns is expensive. I just go with regular nuns and add a bonus to hit because they're a bit slower.

I'm kidding, but unfortunately, there probably is a table for this.

/Sub

Little Snuzzles wrote:Just curious: how much money and time are you willing to spend to make this happen?

You keep using this argument in different threads. Let me address this by saying that many of the people that want a rules clean up/change are willing to purchase an updated version of every book. That is no small amount of money. Just that alone would be enough to cover Palladium's cost for an updated and working rules set. Not only that, it would go a long way to opening up Palladium's product to new players. The potential return for this is, in my opinion, much bigger than the initial investment.

Little Snuzzles wrote:Players are always complaining, but I note that very rarely do they want to do any work themselves. Instead, they expect the publisher to shell out thousands of dollars and thousands of hours of work to please them.

I would be more than willing to drive over to Michigan, have a sit down with Kevin and offer to streamline the rules set for him. I would do it free of charge. The only thing that he would have to do is approve the the rules set and run with them. There would be no cost to him, no work on him or his staff. I would handle all of the work.

But do you know what? A lot of people have offered to do the same over the years. They have all been received with a resounding no. At that point, the onus of that mistake falls on the company, not the customer.

Little Snuzzles wrote:When I try to 'sell' people on Rifts, I usually make a point of mentioning:

A) TONS of Character classes.
B) Tons of spells.
C) Interplayability between different genres - ie. Rifts character can travel to PFRPG, BTS, etc.
D) Easy and quick combat system.

I'm curious about "D". What other games are you using for comparison?

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Little Snuzzles wrote:When I try to 'sell' people on Rifts, I usually make a point of mentioning:

A) TONS of Character classes.
B) Tons of spells.
C) Interplayability between different genres - ie. Rifts character can travel to PFRPG, BTS, etc.
D) Easy and quick combat system.

I'm curious about "D". What other games are you using for comparison?

--flatline

I was wondering this as well. I find the combat system neither easy nor quick and I have played (and written) many systems in which that is actually true.

Little Snuzzles wrote:When I try to 'sell' people on Rifts, I usually make a point of mentioning:

A) TONS of Character classes.
B) Tons of spells.
C) Interplayability between different genres - ie. Rifts character can travel to PFRPG, BTS, etc.
D) Easy and quick combat system.

I completely agree, though i won't do dimensional cross-overs since one of the players in my group tried using a Mystic Ninja in Dead Reign

Snake Eyes wrote:

Little Snuzzles wrote:When I try to 'sell' people on Rifts, I usually make a point of mentioning:

A) TONS of Character classes.
B) Tons of spells.
C) Interplayability between different genres - ie. Rifts character can travel to PFRPG, BTS, etc.
D) Easy and quick combat system.

I completely agree, though i won't do dimensional cross-overs since one of the players in my group tried using a Mystic Ninja in Dead Reign

Some settings are more tolerant of cross-overs than others. Dead Reign looses it's appeal when the characters no longer need to fear the zombies.

--flatline

Little Snuzzles wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:convenient...you left out this part of my post...

I didn't delibertately leave out that part of your post and I don't appreciate you declaring what you think my intentions are.

When you quote me make sure you dont alter the meaning of my statements by quoting me out of context... that is RUDE and the poorest form of debate.

I didn't quote you out of context. It's very rude of you to assume what my intentions were as well as telling me what you think the proper way to quote/post is. Unless you are a mod, you have no business making such determinations.

When this hobby started the rules were not laid out very well in any system.
over the last 35 years the standards for presentation have evolved.
It is time that palladium embraced some of those same standards (note: the word some does not mean all).
The RAW needs to match the RAI.
The layout needs to be more "intuitive".
that is as far the "re-writes" need to go.
If the rules are made more entry friendly more new players will appear.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I do not agree with you that new players to the game are swayed by the nuances that you have brought up. Old-school RPG players? Maybe. New players to the game? No.

I've personally introduced many non-RPG players to Rifts over the past 10 years and never once has anyone complained or even mentioned the issues that you are bringing up. That doesn't mean that my experiences are true for everyone, of course.

2 things...
First...
When you choose to quote me you make it my business to make any determination about your intent ( particularly when it paints a different intent on my part.)
Secondly...
Key words in your rebuttal: "introduced others"
Of course they did not experience the issues being put forth. They hand someone with experience walk them through the system.
They are NOT the norm however.
In this era of the hobby entire groups are joining the hobby completely cold. They need to be able to see the Rules As Intended on their first read through not their 42nd. That is not possible if the Rules As Written do not match.
Like it or not todays gamer is about quick learning curves. As the RAW is currently presented Rifts has an almost insurmountable learning curve (unless you are an older experienced hobbyists.
Fixing the presentation would do wonders for the image of the game.

notafraid2die wrote:

Skidrifter wrote:And still playing...

No doubt.

For as long as I can keep rolling the dice.

Little Snuzzles wrote:

flatline wrote:

Little Snuzzles wrote:When I try to 'sell' people on Rifts, I usually make a point of mentioning:

A) TONS of Character classes.
B) Tons of spells.
C) Interplayability between different genres - ie. Rifts character can travel to PFRPG, BTS, etc.
D) Easy and quick combat system.

I'm curious about "D". What other games are you using for comparison?

AD&D, Rolemaster, Shadowrun, Hero System, Bushido, etc.

I find Palladium's system works really well:

Roll init.
Attack/move.
Dodge/parry/attack.
repeat.
Very simple and fast.

While I agree that the combat system in Palladium seems quicker than dice/hit pools and damage pools and such, I've also played Pathfinder, and I have to say it makes Palladium Combat look like a train with no wheels was racing a Jet with autopilot in terms of ease and fluidity. I've also played Mekton, which was just simply better.

I don't like Pathfinder combat only because I hate that there is no "active defense" like dodging or parrying. There is only AC which is basically hit this number or above to hit me.

Mekton? It has everything Rifts has (strike, parry, dodge, initiative, etc.) but it's just much quicker and fluid, even playing it cold, and explained a lot better in the books.

Rifts combat can take a while to get out of. Anywhere from an hour to around three hours depending on the encounter is the best I have ever seen it run, and that was with time limits before we moved to the next person. The worst was when a single round took us as a group about 3 hours because we were ALL new to the game and had literally just made characters.

That's not really "quick and easy". I don't play with idiots, everyone I've played with is pretty smart and able, but learning the Palladium Combat system took the BEST of them about 2 or 3 hours before they figured it out perfectly.


Alright...what else was there. Oh! I think it was earthawk that mentioned something about no gamers below 25+. I'm only 19, and I try my best to bring people into Rifts because, overall? I'll play it.I don't love all the books, I don't love the system, I don't love all the dimensions, or all of the other material at times; but in the end, I love Rifts.

As for notafraid2die's love of ambiguity. I love the world, but the thing that I keep repeatedly getting complaints about is the clunky system mechanics. The game simply isn't conducive to new players. I've played for about 5+ years and my friend has played for something near 8+ years, and we read the books pretty indepth and have to work out how exactly to implement each of the rules that DO exist. Then we spend more time fixing the broken rules, or things that just don't work. Then we recheck ALL of the books to find the REST of the rules. Then we compile which rules we need that DON'T exist. Then we work to replace those. I play Rifts to have fun...this is work...and not in a good way. I respect the writers and creators at Palladium. I really do. However, I don't feel like I should finish the work that was just started. Missing EXP tables, rules scattered or cloudy, missing rules for common scenarios (how long to X, how fast do you fall), poor scaled weapons, weirdly constructed abilities (See Black Market Expediter and Info. Broker), etc.

There's simply a point where ambiguity becomes work. That's not fun. I can take Mekton, D&D, ShadowRun, Exalted, and Pathfinder, use their core rules and still add my own things to them, or not use the ones I don't like, or tweak them for my own setting or whatever I want, and have a great time. I can also use their core rules and have an equally great time. I can use Rifts canon rules and become constantly confused, do some work, open 10+ books, etc. and have an ok time...or I can write my own set of house-rules using only the most basic of Palladium rules concepts, and have a pretty good time after about a month of work.

This is a situation where you don't have to reinvent the wheel...but I bet it would roll a lot smoother if you shaved down those corners (Infact most of the game is very workable, and a majority of the rules are done and complete, but if it was just rechecked and tweaked a bit more, it would be so much more fluid)

Just because this conversation is now on venturing into things everyone would love to see Palladium do to get new players/improve the game, I just want to put out my pipe-dream RPG wish, which is, beautiful books.

I look at other RPGs and see their beautiful hardcover, colour/partial colour books with amazing art and layout, and wow, I just wish we could get something like that for Rifts.

My most prized RPG possession is my hardcover original rulebook, black with silver, it is wonderful and I adore it, I have gotten every person I have ever gamed with to autograph it's interior, and I WISH I could get similiar hardcover versions of other original Rifts books, because they are amazing classics, and deserve to be presented as such in a classic format, much more than to be 're-done' in the same style as the first Sourcebook was.

Anyways, on a similiar note, consider what people see when they go and look at new books/games to play. Recently I have been wrangled into running a game for a group who has never really played before, all love RPGs, but are intimidated by them/the people who play them, and are only just starting to feel comfortable going into game shops to check them out (three young women). So, they have started to go into more shops, and friendly store owners have helped them feel alot more comfortable browsing through merchandise, especially RPG books, and after doing just that at several stores, here's the end result: Not a single one of them even NOTICED a Rifts book.
It's not that the Rifts books weren't there on the shelves, it's that they were totally outdone by pretty much EVERY OTHER BOOK there. Think about what a new player sees when they see a Rifts book.

-Soft cover
-Black and white interior
-No internal designs, patterns, page themes, ect
-'Simple' two column layout which makes the book seem like a novel. This last point is key. 200 pages of black and white, two column, no breaks, no sideboxes, it looks neither fun nor imaginative, and is VERY intimidating to new players
-Hundred plus pages of text. Just text. Giant walls of text.
-Very few illustrations. Much of what is described doesn't get a picture, many pictures don't seem to have much to do with what's described/don't match what's described.

And these books are there besides beautiful full colour, hardcover books, with textured or coloured pages, beautiful layouts and artwork that actually shows/explains what it's about. Not a single one of those girls even NOTICED the Rifts books, and there is no reason they should. Palladium offers these new players nothing that interests them, and adding another 50 pages of walls of text to every book they release does nothing to help this. These books looked great in the 90's, even up to 2000 or so, but now they just don't stand a chance compared to what the industry is now.

Ninjabunny wrote: I go to gaming conventions a lot, palladium is not the easy awesome system it's not even considered a vanguard anymore just outdated and frankly to hard to learn with out the help of a veteran of the system.

Yeah, this is definately true. People I have seen try and start Rifts on their own generally seem to give up and move on to something else. They buy a Worldbook they like that looks interesting, and the rulebook, because of course you need it, they try for awhile, and just can't make sense of the mess of it all.

Also, remember Palladiums greatly vaunted Palladium system? Which was supposed to allow full compatability between their different titles? What ever happened to that? NOTHING they put out is easily compatible, and when new people try, they get discouraged quickly.

[quote="Little Snuzzles"]

Another completely false and obvious uniformed claim. Try actually reading the books sometime: they are loaded with illustrations.

[quote]

You don't like it, that's okay, but these are my personal experiences with new people trying to get into roleplaying. I have steered dozens of people towards Rifts over the years because I like it, over a decade and a half of playing it, and every group of them comes from a different group of people. The current group I see trying to get into it? 19-22 year old women, and those are the issues that were keeping them away from Palladium.


I have first edition copies of every world book, 1-10 except England. I've got copies of CS War Campaign (first week it was out) that have survived being dropped into the bathtub more than one (I like to read in the tub...), or vampire kingdoms that got left in the rain overnight (used to take books camping a decade ago). I've got BTS first ed that is in incredible shape considering where it's been, Xiticix invasion covered in grape juice stains (almost the whole book is purple, still perfectly readable). I know what the Rifts books are like. You don't need to tell me. I was, again, sharing the feelings and experiences of the new to roleplaying people I have met.

Yeah, Rifts has a full colour, hardback book. The Ultimate Edtion Rulebook. If you want to start a thread on that one, I'll happily contribute, but I don't want to go off on that book in this thread. They have one or two others, like Black Market as well.

Cover art is a great start, it gets people interested, then they open it up. It's just the start. Presentation is key. My wife's in advertising, she can't believe Palladium is real competition for the other games she sees on the shelves on presentation value and customer awareness alone. She's probably right, in that they aren't.



Oh, lastly, that comment about hardcovers taking more time to produce is hilarious. Can you even imagine a book taking Palladium longer to produce? Any book that would take them longer to make would stumble into the territory of never-going-to-happen.

I don't remember if it's been mentioned already, but perhaps the best way to make new Rifts players is to not actually start them on Rifts. Even ignoring any rules issues, Rifts is a really big and daunting setting. Perhaps a better way is to start with a much simpler game like Fantasy (or Dead Reign or Splicers or Heros Unlimited) and then, once they have a feel for the rules and their characters, bring them to Rifts so that only the setting is new, not the system. You can then slowly introduce them to new things.

Come to think of it, that's how I ended up in Rifts. I played HU and Fantasy long before trying out Rifts and here I am, 20 years later still buying Rifts books.

If I were to start a fledgling group, I'd probably still go back to either Fantasy (1st edition revised...never bought 2nd edition) or Dead Reign since I could get the game started in less than half an hour (character generation and everything).

--flatline

Little Snuzzles wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:....I just want to put out my pipe-dream RPG wish, which is, beautiful books.

I must admit that I'm a bit confused by this one. Rifts has some of the best books out there in terms of artwork and eye-catching covers, particuarly those by Zelnik, but also those by Long and others.

As a guy with a publishing background (a degree even) - yeah, sorry, no. While Rifts certainly still has decent cover art, the books themselves look cheaply made and in an age where the industry has largely moved on to full-color glossy pages, anyone who is teased into opening a Rifts book is then faced with a rather ugly interior product - stark black and white (which is actually quite a bit harder on the eyes/harder to read) with large numbers of pages with no art at all, and no page layout to pull your eyes to the important areas of the book. The reason you get breakout-boxes in margins in other games is because they naturally draw the eye to them - there's a whole science to page layout and making it work for you to make your book easier to read. Palladium is failing at it miserably. All most books are is an infodump.

I look at other RPGs and see their beautiful hardcover, colour/partial colour books with amazing art and layout, and wow, I just wish we could get something like that for Rifts.

We already have that.

--SNIP--

A declaration with no proof or evidence to back it up, and certainly no hope of actually being able to do so. If Kevin were in school right now for graphic design/publishing, and he submitted one of Palladium's books to a professor, he'd fail the class. I'm not trying to dog on Kevin - I dont think he ever actually went to school for publishing or any of its related areas of skill, and even if he had he's been out of the classroom for 30+ years. But this is why other companies are still doing good here - they hire new guys with publishing knowledge to edit their books and include such things. Palladium could benefit massively from a copy editor with modern schooling and design training. Book sales of the new books would easily be 30-40% higher.

...Think about what a new player sees when they see a Rifts book.

This is a really silly statement. Not only are you making a generalization, but it's a generalization that you cannot possibly make. It's like saying, "Think about what a new visitor to Europe thinks". You can say what you think or what you've personally witnessed from others, but you can't make a claim about what ALL new players are going to think.

Actually, as a gamer, and a new(er) one, he is fully entitled to offer an opinion on what the average modern gamer thinks when they pick up a Palladium book. As an old(er) gamer, i can certainly tell you i have a reasonable idea what the expectation of someone in my age and experience category is.

-Soft cover

Less expensive to buy, publish, and ship. Also, the books are robust. I have a original copy of Atlantis that has been in heavy use for over 10 years and only now is the cover starting to wear out. Most of my other books are still at 80% after 10-20 years.

Completely irrelevant. If the book looks and feels cheap, they aren't even intersted in buying it, and while it may be cheaper to buy, that's largely irrelevant - if anything, the rapid expansion of the hobby has shown that there are millions of people out there who dont mind spending 40$ on a 100-ish page supplement. Enough to drive the D&D division of WotC to record profits year after year, at least, and dozens of other companies making a living off of d20 - like Pathfinder's creators. The core tabletop gamer doesn't care - or largely even NOTICE - that he's saving 10 bucks a book because its softcover and black and white; with the total lack of "pick up appeal", theyre going right past them to the much more attractive and well laid out book next to them - like, say, Dark Heresy; those books are expensive as hell, but both of the local game shop owners i deal with for the conventions i deal with report that that line easily outsells Palladium 2 or 3 to 1. And that is here in Michigan, Palladium's "hometown".

-Black and white interior

True, however color takes quite a bit longer to produce, is more exensive, and can significantly delay publication time as well as running up costs for both the publisher & the consumer.

The consumer doesn't care. The consumer doesn't want an ugly product. And in the digital age, color does NOT take 'quite a bit longer' to produce. It takes longer, yes, but the dividends for doing so more than pay for themselves. It wont delay publication time by the printer at all, though it may add time at the production level.

-No internal designs, patterns, page themes, ect

That's an personal aesthetics issue. I remember Lejentia from Flying Buffalo Games had extensive internal page designs and it was rather nauseating to read. Samething with Rollmaster, Middle Earth, and several others.

You ever see the show Bar Rescue? If not, ill tell you what makes it different from all those other "rescue so-and-so failing business" shows - Science. The guy who does the show, John Taffer, doesn't rely on "his gut" - he relies on science. There's a science to everything in a bar or eatery, from the menu design (designed to draw the eye to the money-making dishes/drinks on the menu), internal layout (to reduce noise polution, etc), curb appeal - everything.

It's the same with publishing and graphic design. You get a bachelors in publishing or graphic design, you spend the better part of a YEAR learning this stuff. A whole year, ~28-30 credit hours, on the science of publishing.

You want to see how a book should be laid out? Go look at the Legend of the Five Rings books. Simple, clean, inviting, easy to read, with lots of well-laid-out sidebars and footers/headers to draw your eye and provide examples. Rifts, and most Palladium products, by contrast, are giant infodumps with art clipped in wherever Kev thinks it should be. More on that in a minute

-'Simple' two column layout which makes the book seem like a novel. This last point is key. 200 pages of black and white, two column, no breaks, no sideboxes, it looks neither fun nor imaginative, and is VERY intimidating to new players.

With all due respect, I think you projecting your personal conclusions on other players. The two-column layout is not "intimidating". Also, there's tons of artwork that breaks up the formatting. For example:

Rifts:Japan - Pages with half-page or 1/4 page art that breaks up the formating:
8, 9, 10-full page, 13-full page, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 23, 25-full page, 26, 27-full page, 28, 31-full page, 39, 45-full page, 47, 49, 50, 51, 54, 56, 58, 65, 67-full page, 71, 74, 79, 81-full page, 83, 85, 86, 88, 90, 91, 92, 94, 95, 97, 103-full page, 106, 108, 111, 113, etc, etc, etc..

Almost all other Rifts (and other PB systems) are the same.

It isn't just about art - it's about page layout in the entirety - but beside that, your example still plainly shows there are entire pages that are just simple two-column walls of text. Art comes maybe every third page, on average, and there are no headers, footers, sidebars - nothing to draw the eye. To provide a technical example -

To lay out a book from a modern publisher, i'd need to use Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, and Word or other full-featured text editing software. I'd composite the final product with InDesign, but i'd have to design vector art for sidebars/footers/breakout boxes/headers in Illustrator and most of the actual art would be processed through Photoshop to touch it up, rescale it, and apply proper layering before being converted in Illustrator to vector; all of the text would be done in a word processor.

To contrast that with a Palladium book - i could, quite literally, lay out an entire Palladium book in Word, inserting the art with the simple "insert image" tool. The entire thing. That's not a plus or something to be proud of, design-wise.

-Hundred plus pages of text. Just text. Giant walls of text.

That is 100% completely wrong as I just demonstrated in my above example. Perhaps you should actually try reading a Rifts book at some point.

Not really; you demonstrated that there are still probably 1/2-2/3 of the book that are giant walls of text. Perhaps you should try reading a Palladium product at some point. Go check out Dead Reign.

-Very few illustrations.

Another completely false and obvious uniformed claim. Try actually reading the books sometime: they are loaded with illustrations.

Compared to? Most RPG books have art on every page of the core content. Full-color art, i might add; it isnt until you get into appendices/non-mechanical portions of the book that art becomes sparse (spell lists and the like - and Palladium is no different here).

Much of what is described doesn't get a picture, many pictures don't seem to have much to do with what's described/don't match what's described.

What a compelling counter-argument. Oh, wait, you're being a troll.

And these books are there besides beautiful full colour, hardcover books, with textured or coloured pages, beautiful layouts and artwork that actually shows/explains what it's about.

I addressed this redundant argument earlier.

Except it isn't redundant - it's vital. Ill re-iterate: one of the tabletop providers i work with for the local conventions i work with (in Ann Arbor, Michigan - situated between TWO major US universities with thousands of gamers) - only stocks a few of the very newest Palladium releases and the core books, because they sell so poorly and he cant afford to waste the shelf space when he can be stocking it with games that sell. In his store, a game like Dark Heresy - where the core book alone costs 40$ and the sourcebooks are 25-35$ for ~120 page sourcebooks - sells almost 300% better than Palladium products.

It isn't hard to see why; the book has amazing production value, is easy to follow and read, has lots of breakouts discussing the lore, rules, and tips for playing the game, the artwork is full-color and eye catching, extremely high quality. Sit that book next to Rifts: UE, and it's no wonder why Rifts isn't selling.

Not a single one of those girls even NOTICED the Rifts books, and there is no reason they should.

And there can be no other reason except the cover art, right?

Just like with any product, presentation is between 60-70% of the battle. I dont care if you have a car that gets 200mpg, if it is an ugly box, it wont sell well. Presentation, presentation, presentation. It's why cars that get awful gas mileage and cost twice as much as very good serviceable cars sell ten times as many units. If you cant put enough pizzazz into your product to spur an impulse buy from someone browsing the shelves at the local hobby store, you're sunk. It's not like theyre going to sit there the entire day and read the whole (rather bland, hard-to-read, stark black and white) book to see how amazing it is. You've got about 90 seconds to get someone's attention and spur a purchase, before theyre on to the next product.

Palladium offers these new players nothing that interests them,

I love when people say things like this. Let me ask: are you claiming to speak for every new RPG player on the planet? You must be because you have personally determined what criteria all RPG players are looking for. You have, no doubt, done a exhausive long-term cross-sectional study of the matter and, thus, do you make your conclusion. OR maybe you're making a huge blanket generalization.

To argue to the contrary: I've introduced over 27 new RPG players to Rifts. All of them were dazzled by the art, the imaginitive writing, the diversity of character classes, and the size of the worlds created: Rifts Earth, Three Galaxies, Alternate Dimensions, Parallel Realities.

Palladium has nothing to interest new players? -- Wrong again.

You Introduced. And that's where your entire argument falls apart. They didn't come at Rifts cold, they had you to hold their hand through the inconsistencies, point out how the system works, and get them past the rough parts. Most new players don't.

As for his experiences - well, they're borne out by the market. Palladium isn't doing terribly well, and other companies are going gangbusters and shipping product as fast as they can make it, and making great money doing it. Palladium isn't. The proof is, as they say, in the pudding.

and adding another 50 pages of walls of text to every book they release does nothing to help this. These books looked great in the 90's, even up to 2000 or so, but now they just don't stand a chance compared to what the industry is now.

While others try to sell themselves on fluff, PB focuses on imaginitive writing.

I've got a copy of Hero System 6E. It has alll the stuff you find desirable: hardback, color illustrations throughout, sidebar formating on pages, etc. It is also written like a science text book, particular in regards to the complex matematics need to determine skill / power usage. It's a beautiful book that sits on my shelf. My Rifts books, on the other hand, may not be as pretty but they get used regularly and they have much greater functionality.

And that's all Palladium has going for it. Kevin is a great writer of settings and lore. He's not so great at game mechanics, and straight-up a terrible, god-awful publisher. The problem is, you've got to get people past the bad mechanics and the awful books to get them playing, and therefore, buying... and right now, Palladium's failing that one rather hard.

The store in question above? About to pull Palladium products entirely; the few sales they do make are from regulars who will just pre-order the books. And that is a store in a double-University town (Eastern Michigan Univ, which has an active 300+ member gaming club, and University of Michigan with over 20,000 students and SEVERAL gaming clubs of various stripes from LARPing, boardgaming, video games, and tabletopping) in Palladium's "home town".

I want Palladium to do well - i grew up on (literally) their books, and they have a special place in my heart. But sugarcoating the problems or trying to ignore them isn't going to make them go away, and it isn't going to fix anything. No matter how hard Kevin works, it isn't going to get better if the product doesn't get better. The industry and the market have moved on.

Back in 1992-1994 when i started playing Palladium games, Palladium was ahead of the curve - their books were cheaper, and they met or exceeded all the standards of the day pretty easily. The problem is that was twenty years ago and the industry has changed drastically, and Palladium hasn't changed one bit. D&D went from selling numbers perhaps twice as good as Palladium of the same era to selling 20-30x the product - and it's not an accident that production values on the books went way up. They most certainly played a large part in the explosive success of D&D - a lot of people (myself included) decried the WotC takeover, but TSR was a lot like Palladium of the day - and when the guys in suits with real publishing degrees came in from WotC, it's not an accident that book sales went way up.

Another key area that Palladium is falling behind on is an evolving system. Palladium's system actually had a lot of flaws even back when it was relatively new - it works really well for Palladium Fantasy, a primarily melee-based system, but it really fell apart and got cumbersome when they moved to high-tech settings, and yet no revision was ever made to the rules. There are hundreds of little rules sprinkled through dozens of books, the core rulebooks contradict themselves, and the bloat has gone on and on for years, with the problems never once being addressed. (Did you know there is a rule in the World Book 5: Triax and the NGR, about firing some pistols one-handed incurs a strike penalty. It's in an obscure place burried in a column of text near the weapon descriptions for some fo the Triax weapons - there are dozens of other similar rules burried in sourcebooks.).

You cant even make a Rifts character using the Rules as Written.

I want Palladium to succeed. I really do. Lying to ourselves about the failings of the company and the product(s) isn't going to help achieve that. If things dont change, Palladium will continue to limp on, Kev will probably work himself into a heart attack (god forbid), and the ship will never right itself. It's time for people to stop making excuses for the company and start being honest with themselves and Palladium.

Or in a few years, there wont be a ship to right.

flatline wrote:
If I were to start a fledgling group, I'd probably still go back to either Fantasy (1st edition revised...never bought 2nd edition) or Dead Reign since I could get the game started in less than half an hour (character generation and everything).

--flatline

Oh yeah, not a terrible idea at all, a lot of times I like to run Fantasy games just because they are flat out simpler, and Rifts is incredibly daunting if it's your first time with an RPG. The problem there is that any issue Rifts might have trying to draw new players in is vastly magnified with Palladium Fantasy. Rifts at least has unique art, a totally different concept, and a fair amount of cool factor. Trying to sell Palladium Fantasy on it's merits alone and not very many new players I have ever met will choose it over some other fantasy game system. Especially when a potential player holds up two different companies rulebooks and asks a store manager what good books they both make, how often they come out or even, if they can remember the last time a company put out a book.

Let alone the look a new player gets when they come in and asks a store manager if they can order the third Land of the Damned book...



Just wanted to jump back in and edit, that Colonel_Tetsuya has it all down, and in much greater detail than I was ever going to get into. As someone who spends most of his time around people in the Advertising, Marketing, Journalism and Graphic Design world. this is the exact opinion of people educated i the field.

Palladium is 20 years behind. There's no way around it. To answere the original question, how to get people to play Rifts? Introduce them to it and run games, because the product does not sell itself, and it does not stand up to competition. If you love it, and you want more people to love it, you have to go out and do the work for the company.

Here is what I have had to deal with in an area 90 minutes travel in radius, with several universities and community colleges as well as several stores along with a population numbering into a couple of million.

The rules suck.
The rules are clunky.
The rules are old and need to be updated.
The books look cheap.
Are they even still in business?

Are these things true? Depends on ones point of view really but let's take each one on it's own.

The rules suck? No they do not but they do need some revision in places.

The rules are clunky? In some places yes they can be but in general no they are not.

The rules are old and need to be updated? Yes they are old, but updated is a subjective thing and like above they are in need of some possible revision/clarification/reorganization.

The books look cheap? In comparison to so many other books out there it is hard to argue that they don't look cheap. We can sit here all day and say "a flashy book a good game does not make" but the reality is flash is what grabs your attention, substance keeps it and more and more these flashy books are having the substance to keep attention on them.

Are they even still in business? Obviously they but honestly with the number of stores there are, there is only one store in Toronto that regularly stocks Palladium titles. There are several stores throughout Toronto, a city of 2-3 million, and only ONE carries PB's products with any regularity. Once you get outside of Toronto it isn't hard to see why people ask if they are still in business.


Perception is everything and I, as a Megaversal Ambassador, can only do so much to fight that perception which is made all the more difficult when the company itself, unfortunately, really doesn't do much to correct that perception on it's own.

I can run demos until the cows come home, post ads for games and preach from a street corner but until the above perceptions can be negated, it is an uphill battle at best. At least it is for me and where I am is no small out of the way area of the continent. It is the 5th largest urban area.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Little Snuzzles wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:....I just want to put out my pipe-dream RPG wish, which is, beautiful books.

I must admit that I'm a bit confused by this one. Rifts has some of the best books out there in terms of artwork and eye-catching covers, particuarly those by Zelnik, but also those by Long and others.

As a guy with a publishing background (a degree even) - yeah, sorry, no. While Rifts certainly still has decent cover art, the books themselves look cheaply made and in an age where the industry has largely moved on to full-color glossy pages, anyone who is teased into opening a Rifts book is then faced with a rather ugly interior product - stark black and white (which is actually quite a bit harder on the eyes/harder to read) with large numbers of pages with no art at all, and no page layout to pull your eyes to the important areas of the book. The reason you get breakout-boxes in margins in other games is because they naturally draw the eye to them - there's a whole science to page layout and making it work for you to make your book easier to read. Palladium is failing at it miserably. All most books are is an infodump.

I look at other RPGs and see their beautiful hardcover, colour/partial colour books with amazing art and layout, and wow, I just wish we could get something like that for Rifts.

We already have that.

--SNIP--

A declaration with no proof or evidence to back it up, and certainly no hope of actually being able to do so. If Kevin were in school right now for graphic design/publishing, and he submitted one of Palladium's books to a professor, he'd fail the class. I'm not trying to dog on Kevin - I dont think he ever actually went to school for publishing or any of its related areas of skill, and even if he had he's been out of the classroom for 30+ years. But this is why other companies are still doing good here - they hire new guys with publishing knowledge to edit their books and include such things. Palladium could benefit massively from a copy editor with modern schooling and design training. Book sales of the new books would easily be 30-40% higher.

...Think about what a new player sees when they see a Rifts book.

This is a really silly statement. Not only are you making a generalization, but it's a generalization that you cannot possibly make. It's like saying, "Think about what a new visitor to Europe thinks". You can say what you think or what you've personally witnessed from others, but you can't make a claim about what ALL new players are going to think.

Actually, as a gamer, and a new(er) one, he is fully entitled to offer an opinion on what the average modern gamer thinks when they pick up a Palladium book. As an old(er) gamer, i can certainly tell you i have a reasonable idea what the expectation of someone in my age and experience category is.

-Soft cover

Less expensive to buy, publish, and ship. Also, the books are robust. I have a original copy of Atlantis that has been in heavy use for over 10 years and only now is the cover starting to wear out. Most of my other books are still at 80% after 10-20 years.

Completely irrelevant. If the book looks and feels cheap, they aren't even intersted in buying it, and while it may be cheaper to buy, that's largely irrelevant - if anything, the rapid expansion of the hobby has shown that there are millions of people out there who dont mind spending 40$ on a 100-ish page supplement. Enough to drive the D&D division of WotC to record profits year after year, at least, and dozens of other companies making a living off of d20 - like Pathfinder's creators. The core tabletop gamer doesn't care - or largely even NOTICE - that he's saving 10 bucks a book because its softcover and black and white; with the total lack of "pick up appeal", theyre going right past them to the much more attractive and well laid out book next to them - like, say, Dark Heresy; those books are expensive as hell, but both of the local game shop owners i deal with for the conventions i deal with report that that line easily outsells Palladium 2 or 3 to 1. And that is here in Michigan, Palladium's "hometown".

-Black and white interior

True, however color takes quite a bit longer to produce, is more exensive, and can significantly delay publication time as well as running up costs for both the publisher & the consumer.

The consumer doesn't care. The consumer doesn't want an ugly product. And in the digital age, color does NOT take 'quite a bit longer' to produce. It takes longer, yes, but the dividends for doing so more than pay for themselves. It wont delay publication time by the printer at all, though it may add time at the production level.

-No internal designs, patterns, page themes, ect

That's an personal aesthetics issue. I remember Lejentia from Flying Buffalo Games had extensive internal page designs and it was rather nauseating to read. Samething with Rollmaster, Middle Earth, and several others.

You ever see the show Bar Rescue? If not, ill tell you what makes it different from all those other "rescue so-and-so failing business" shows - Science. The guy who does the show, John Taffer, doesn't rely on "his gut" - he relies on science. There's a science to everything in a bar or eatery, from the menu design (designed to draw the eye to the money-making dishes/drinks on the menu), internal layout (to reduce noise polution, etc), curb appeal - everything.

It's the same with publishing and graphic design. You get a bachelors in publishing or graphic design, you spend the better part of a YEAR learning this stuff. A whole year, ~28-30 credit hours, on the science of publishing.

You want to see how a book should be laid out? Go look at the Legend of the Five Rings books. Simple, clean, inviting, easy to read, with lots of well-laid-out sidebars and footers/headers to draw your eye and provide examples. Rifts, and most Palladium products, by contrast, are giant infodumps with art clipped in wherever Kev thinks it should be. More on that in a minute

-'Simple' two column layout which makes the book seem like a novel. This last point is key. 200 pages of black and white, two column, no breaks, no sideboxes, it looks neither fun nor imaginative, and is VERY intimidating to new players.

With all due respect, I think you projecting your personal conclusions on other players. The two-column layout is not "intimidating". Also, there's tons of artwork that breaks up the formatting. For example:

Rifts:Japan - Pages with half-page or 1/4 page art that breaks up the formating:
8, 9, 10-full page, 13-full page, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 23, 25-full page, 26, 27-full page, 28, 31-full page, 39, 45-full page, 47, 49, 50, 51, 54, 56, 58, 65, 67-full page, 71, 74, 79, 81-full page, 83, 85, 86, 88, 90, 91, 92, 94, 95, 97, 103-full page, 106, 108, 111, 113, etc, etc, etc..

Almost all other Rifts (and other PB systems) are the same.

It isn't just about art - it's about page layout in the entirety - but beside that, your example still plainly shows there are entire pages that are just simple two-column walls of text. Art comes maybe every third page, on average, and there are no headers, footers, sidebars - nothing to draw the eye. To provide a technical example -

To lay out a book from a modern publisher, i'd need to use Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, and Word or other full-featured text editing software. I'd composite the final product with InDesign, but i'd have to design vector art for sidebars/footers/breakout boxes/headers in Illustrator and most of the actual art would be processed through Photoshop to touch it up, rescale it, and apply proper layering before being converted in Illustrator to vector; all of the text would be done in a word processor.

To contrast that with a Palladium book - i could, quite literally, lay out an entire Palladium book in Word, inserting the art with the simple "insert image" tool. The entire thing. That's not a plus or something to be proud of, design-wise.

-Hundred plus pages of text. Just text. Giant walls of text.

That is 100% completely wrong as I just demonstrated in my above example. Perhaps you should actually try reading a Rifts book at some point.

Not really; you demonstrated that there are still probably 1/2-2/3 of the book that are giant walls of text. Perhaps you should try reading a Palladium product at some point. Go check out Dead Reign.

-Very few illustrations.

Another completely false and obvious uniformed claim. Try actually reading the books sometime: they are loaded with illustrations.

Compared to? Most RPG books have art on every page of the core content. Full-color art, i might add; it isnt until you get into appendices/non-mechanical portions of the book that art becomes sparse (spell lists and the like - and Palladium is no different here).

Much of what is described doesn't get a picture, many pictures don't seem to have much to do with what's described/don't match what's described.

What a compelling counter-argument. Oh, wait, you're being a troll.

And these books are there besides beautiful full colour, hardcover books, with textured or coloured pages, beautiful layouts and artwork that actually shows/explains what it's about.

I addressed this redundant argument earlier.

Except it isn't redundant - it's vital. Ill re-iterate: one of the tabletop providers i work with for the local conventions i work with (in Ann Arbor, Michigan - situated between TWO major US universities with thousands of gamers) - only stocks a few of the very newest Palladium releases and the core books, because they sell so poorly and he cant afford to waste the shelf space when he can be stocking it with games that sell. In his store, a game like Dark Heresy - where the core book alone costs 40$ and the sourcebooks are 25-35$ for ~120 page sourcebooks - sells almost 300% better than Palladium products.

It isn't hard to see why; the book has amazing production value, is easy to follow and read, has lots of breakouts discussing the lore, rules, and tips for playing the game, the artwork is full-color and eye catching, extremely high quality. Sit that book next to Rifts: UE, and it's no wonder why Rifts isn't selling.

Not a single one of those girls even NOTICED the Rifts books, and there is no reason they should.

And there can be no other reason except the cover art, right?

Just like with any product, presentation is between 60-70% of the battle. I dont care if you have a car that gets 200mpg, if it is an ugly box, it wont sell well. Presentation, presentation, presentation. It's why cars that get awful gas mileage and cost twice as much as very good serviceable cars sell ten times as many units. If you cant put enough pizzazz into your product to spur an impulse buy from someone browsing the shelves at the local hobby store, you're sunk. It's not like theyre going to sit there the entire day and read the whole (rather bland, hard-to-read, stark black and white) book to see how amazing it is. You've got about 90 seconds to get someone's attention and spur a purchase, before theyre on to the next product.

Palladium offers these new players nothing that interests them,

I love when people say things like this. Let me ask: are you claiming to speak for every new RPG player on the planet? You must be because you have personally determined what criteria all RPG players are looking for. You have, no doubt, done a exhausive long-term cross-sectional study of the matter and, thus, do you make your conclusion. OR maybe you're making a huge blanket generalization.

To argue to the contrary: I've introduced over 27 new RPG players to Rifts. All of them were dazzled by the art, the imaginitive writing, the diversity of character classes, and the size of the worlds created: Rifts Earth, Three Galaxies, Alternate Dimensions, Parallel Realities.

Palladium has nothing to interest new players? -- Wrong again.

You Introduced. And that's where your entire argument falls apart. They didn't come at Rifts cold, they had you to hold their hand through the inconsistencies, point out how the system works, and get them past the rough parts. Most new players don't.

As for his experiences - well, they're borne out by the market. Palladium isn't doing terribly well, and other companies are going gangbusters and shipping product as fast as they can make it, and making great money doing it. Palladium isn't. The proof is, as they say, in the pudding.

and adding another 50 pages of walls of text to every book they release does nothing to help this. These books looked great in the 90's, even up to 2000 or so, but now they just don't stand a chance compared to what the industry is now.

While others try to sell themselves on fluff, PB focuses on imaginitive writing.

I've got a copy of Hero System 6E. It has alll the stuff you find desirable: hardback, color illustrations throughout, sidebar formating on pages, etc. It is also written like a science text book, particular in regards to the complex matematics need to determine skill / power usage. It's a beautiful book that sits on my shelf. My Rifts books, on the other hand, may not be as pretty but they get used regularly and they have much greater functionality.

And that's all Palladium has going for it. Kevin is a great writer of settings and lore. He's not so great at game mechanics, and straight-up a terrible, god-awful publisher. The problem is, you've got to get people past the bad mechanics and the awful books to get them playing, and therefore, buying... and right now, Palladium's failing that one rather hard.

The store in question above? About to pull Palladium products entirely; the few sales they do make are from regulars who will just pre-order the books. And that is a store in a double-University town (Eastern Michigan Univ, which has an active 300+ member gaming club, and University of Michigan with over 20,000 students and SEVERAL gaming clubs of various stripes from LARPing, boardgaming, video games, and tabletopping) in Palladium's "home town".

I want Palladium to do well - i grew up on (literally) their books, and they have a special place in my heart. But sugarcoating the problems or trying to ignore them isn't going to make them go away, and it isn't going to fix anything. No matter how hard Kevin works, it isn't going to get better if the product doesn't get better. The industry and the market have moved on.

Back in 1992-1994 when i started playing Palladium games, Palladium was ahead of the curve - their books were cheaper, and they met or exceeded all the standards of the day pretty easily. The problem is that was twenty years ago and the industry has changed drastically, and Palladium hasn't changed one bit. D&D went from selling numbers perhaps twice as good as Palladium of the same era to selling 20-30x the product - and it's not an accident that production values on the books went way up. They most certainly played a large part in the explosive success of D&D - a lot of people (myself included) decried the WotC takeover, but TSR was a lot like Palladium of the day - and when the guys in suits with real publishing degrees came in from WotC, it's not an accident that book sales went way up.

Another key area that Palladium is falling behind on is an evolving system. Palladium's system actually had a lot of flaws even back when it was relatively new - it works really well for Palladium Fantasy, a primarily melee-based system, but it really fell apart and got cumbersome when they moved to high-tech settings, and yet no revision was ever made to the rules. There are hundreds of little rules sprinkled through dozens of books, the core rulebooks contradict themselves, and the bloat has gone on and on for years, with the problems never once being addressed. (Did you know there is a rule in the World Book 5: Triax and the NGR, about firing some pistols one-handed incurs a strike penalty. It's in an obscure place burried in a column of text near the weapon descriptions for some fo the Triax weapons - there are dozens of other similar rules burried in sourcebooks.).

You cant even make a Rifts character using the Rules as Written.

I want Palladium to succeed. I really do. Lying to ourselves about the failings of the company and the product(s) isn't going to help achieve that. If things dont change, Palladium will continue to limp on, Kev will probably work himself into a heart attack (god forbid), and the ship will never right itself. It's time for people to stop making excuses for the company and start being honest with themselves and Palladium.

Or in a few years, there wont be a ship to right.

First, I want to say thank you for taking the time to make a thoughtful and truthful post on this topic. Secondly, when I started playing Rifts it's was pretty much the cheapest game available that still had enough cool factor to make it fun. At the time we didn't care if the game mechanics were screwy, or if the books shipped haphazardly, the game was cheap and affordable. Now as an adult with disposable income but less time for gaming, my dollar speaks for itself; I choose a game with high production value, good mechanics, and readily available support (i.e. gamers who want to play, character builders, miniatures, etc...). It's not that I don't want to play, it's the simple fact that there's less work involved for me to play D&D/ Pathfinder/ Death Watch than it is for me to play Rifts, and I'm pretty sure this holds true for most gamers my age (well maybe not on this forum). If Palladium could somehow find away to do the same with their products then just maybe they could get more people interested in their games.

Ninjabunny wrote:

jaymz wrote:Here is what I have had to deal with in an area 90 minutes travel in radius, with several universities and community colleges as well as several stores along with a population numbering into a couple of million.

The rules suck.
The rules are clunky.
The rules are old and need to be updated.
The books look cheap.
Are they even still in business?

Are these things true? Depends on ones point of view really but let's take each one on it's own.

The rules suck? No they do not but they do need some revision in places.

The rules are clunky? In some places yes they can be but in general no they are not.

The rules are old and need to be updated? Yes they are old, but updated is a subjective thing and like above they are in need of some possible revision/clarification/reorganization.

The books look cheap? In comparison to so many other books out there it is hard to argue that they don't look cheap. We can sit here all day and say "a flashy book a good game does not make" but the reality is flash is what grabs your attention, substance keeps it and more and more these flashy books are having the substance to keep attention on them.

Are they even still in business? Obviously they but honestly with the number of stores there are, there is only one store in Toronto that regularly stocks Palladium titles. There are several stores throughout Toronto, a city of 2-3 million, and only ONE carries PB's products with any regularity. Once you get outside of Toronto it isn't hard to see why people ask if they are still in business.


Perception is everything and I, as a Megaversal Ambassador, can only do so much to fight that perception which is made all the more difficult when the company itself, unfortunately, really doesn't do much to correct that perception on it's own.

I can run demos until the cows come home, post ads for games and preach from a street corner but until the above perceptions can be negated, it is an uphill battle at best. At least it is for me and where I am is no small out of the way area of the continent. It is the 5th largest urban area.

Good points all around Jaymz

To add to that, D20, as much as I hate to say this, went a long way towards garnering a solidified and centralized type player base. When D20 hit the industry, in very short order, you were able to play almost any genre with no to very little change in the basic rules (sound familiar?), the rules were simple (d20 rolls for any action you wish to take), well laid out and explained (with many examples including diagrams) in most cases and the books themselves had pretty darn good production values to them.

Honestly I am surprised any of the smaller companies managed to stick around at all after that.

Ninjabunny wrote:D20 forced many folks to change and adapt AFMBE added d20 conversion rules.

As did DreamPodNine when they released their general Silhouette core rule book SIlCore. Silhouette rules as well as D20 ones. Did the same in the new game line (At the time) Core Command.

earthhawk wrote:First, I want to say thank you for taking the time to make a thoughtful and truthful post on this topic. Secondly, when I started playing Rifts it's was pretty much the cheapest game available that still had enough cool factor to make it fun. At the time we didn't care if the game mechanics were screwy, or if the books shipped haphazardly, the game was cheap and affordable. Now as an adult with disposable income but less time for gaming, my dollar speaks for itself; I choose a game with high production value, good mechanics, and readily available support (i.e. gamers who want to play, character builders, miniatures, etc...). It's not that I don't want to play, it's the simple fact that there's less work involved for me to play D&D/ Pathfinder/ Death Watch than it is for me to play Rifts, and I'm pretty sure this holds true for most gamers my age (well maybe not on this forum). If Palladium could somehow find away to do the same with their products then just maybe they could get more people interested in their games.

I will say that as an older gamer myself, I agree that I tend to spend my money in the same way. I will look for a game that has support (both from the company and from the players), mechanics that are easy to reference (not learn but look up), has an organized professional look (but still not a fan of glossy paper) and rich in setting. Despite what people think, Palladium is not the only company to have a rich setting. While I do like Palladium's settings, that is not enough to capture new gamers by itself. I run a group that ranges from 19-38 and let me tell you, those under the age of 28 do not like the Palladium system. They only tolerate it because of my Dead Reign campaign (was running Rifts also but they backed off from that one) and even then they are asking if I could find another system to run it with. In my experience, the younger generation does not feel the need to work with a system like Palladium when they have so many other choices that are more intuitive to learn.

Icefalcon wrote:

earthhawk wrote:First, I want to say thank you for taking the time to make a thoughtful and truthful post on this topic. Secondly, when I started playing Rifts it's was pretty much the cheapest game available that still had enough cool factor to make it fun. At the time we didn't care if the game mechanics were screwy, or if the books shipped haphazardly, the game was cheap and affordable. Now as an adult with disposable income but less time for gaming, my dollar speaks for itself; I choose a game with high production value, good mechanics, and readily available support (i.e. gamers who want to play, character builders, miniatures, etc...). It's not that I don't want to play, it's the simple fact that there's less work involved for me to play D&D/ Pathfinder/ Death Watch than it is for me to play Rifts, and I'm pretty sure this holds true for most gamers my age (well maybe not on this forum). If Palladium could somehow find away to do the same with their products then just maybe they could get more people interested in their games.

I will say that as an older gamer myself, I agree that I tend to spend my money in the same way. I will look for a game that has support (both from the company and from the players), mechanics that are easy to reference (not learn but look up), has an organized professional look (but still not a fan of glossy paper) and rich in setting. Despite what people think, Palladium is not the only company to have a rich setting. While I do like Palladium's settings, that is not enough to capture new gamers by itself. I run a group that ranges from 19-38 and let me tell you, those under the age of 28 do not like the Palladium system. They only tolerate it because of my Dead Reign campaign (was running Rifts also but they backed off from that one) and even then they are asking if I could find another system to run it with. In my experience, the younger generation does not feel the need to work with a system like Palladium when they have so many other choices that are more intuitive to learn.

I agree to a point...
I have discovered that even younger players will come to love the system once they get a grasp of the basic system. What most of them do hate however is the long character generation system.
But I have also seen a interesting trend with attitudes towards their characters...
In fast generation games (char gen takes 10mins or less) there is a "disposable character" feel in the attitudes of the players.
where as in any game where generation takes them more than 10 mins they have a deeper attachment to the characters well being.
What does this mean for Palladium? I do not really know... but it does say something about the attitudes of "newer" players.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:

earthhawk wrote:First, I want to say thank you for taking the time to make a thoughtful and truthful post on this topic. Secondly, when I started playing Rifts it's was pretty much the cheapest game available that still had enough cool factor to make it fun. At the time we didn't care if the game mechanics were screwy, or if the books shipped haphazardly, the game was cheap and affordable. Now as an adult with disposable income but less time for gaming, my dollar speaks for itself; I choose a game with high production value, good mechanics, and readily available support (i.e. gamers who want to play, character builders, miniatures, etc...). It's not that I don't want to play, it's the simple fact that there's less work involved for me to play D&D/ Pathfinder/ Death Watch than it is for me to play Rifts, and I'm pretty sure this holds true for most gamers my age (well maybe not on this forum). If Palladium could somehow find away to do the same with their products then just maybe they could get more people interested in their games.

I will say that as an older gamer myself, I agree that I tend to spend my money in the same way. I will look for a game that has support (both from the company and from the players), mechanics that are easy to reference (not learn but look up), has an organized professional look (but still not a fan of glossy paper) and rich in setting. Despite what people think, Palladium is not the only company to have a rich setting. While I do like Palladium's settings, that is not enough to capture new gamers by itself. I run a group that ranges from 19-38 and let me tell you, those under the age of 28 do not like the Palladium system. They only tolerate it because of my Dead Reign campaign (was running Rifts also but they backed off from that one) and even then they are asking if I could find another system to run it with. In my experience, the younger generation does not feel the need to work with a system like Palladium when they have so many other choices that are more intuitive to learn.

I agree to a point...
I have discovered that even younger players will come to love the system once they get a grasp of the basic system. What most of them do hate however is the long character generation system.
But I have also seen a interesting trend with attitudes towards their characters...
In fast generation games (char gen takes 10mins or less) there is a "disposable character" feel in the attitudes of the players.
where as in any game where generation takes them more than 10 mins they have a deeper attachment to the characters well being.
What does this mean for Palladium? I do not really know... but it does say something about the attitudes of "newer" players.

Oh, I was not generalizing about all players under 28, just mine. I have introduced younger people to Palladium that have stuck with it over the years but they get fewer and fewer as the system ages.

Little Snuzzles wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:As a guy with a publishing background (a degree even) - yeah, sorry, no.

Argument From Authority Fallacy. Thanks.

Incorrect: im not appealing to some other expert authority. I'm telling you - I have a degree in publishing. This IS my area of expertise. Im educated in this topic.

While Rifts certainly still has decent cover art, the books themselves look cheaply made and in an age where the industry has largely moved on to full-color glossy pages, anyone who is teased into opening a Rifts book is then faced with a rather ugly interior product - stark black and white (which is actually quite a bit harder on the eyes/harder to read) with large numbers of pages with no art at all, and no page layout to pull your eyes to the important areas of the book. The reason you get breakout-boxes in margins in other games is because they naturally draw the eye to them - there's a whole science to page layout and making it work for you to make your book easier to read. Palladium is failing at it miserably. All most books are is an infodump.

Really? You're actually arguing that the pages are hard to read? Ok, man, if that's what you think.

Black text on bright-white paper/background is scientifically proven to be substantially more difficult to read for long periods of time. As little as 10 minutes can cause 2-4x the eye strain compared to reading on an off-white surface. Ever wonder why so many of these other RPG books dont have stark-white paper? It's harder to read and leads to people putting books down.

Paperback books? Printed on off-white paper for decades for the same reason... and newspapers, most magazines, gee, just about everything where they intend you to read for long periods of time - including those fancy new E-readers like the Kindle/Nook and the eReader apps on Android and iOS. It's something you learn in, oh, the first six months of school when you're pursuing a degree in graphic arts or publishing.

Eashmael: "I look at other RPGs and see their beautiful hardcover, colour/partial colour books with amazing art and layout, and wow, I just wish we could get something like that for Rifts."

LS: "We already have that."

A declaration with no proof or evidence to back it up, and certainly no hope of actually being able to do so.

I disagree complete, but since you've already declared that you're not going to listen to what I have to say, what's the point in discussing it with you?

... what a fantabulous cop-out. You cant back up your argument; im shocked. Shocked i tell you.

Palladium could benefit massively from a copy editor with modern schooling and design training.

How so? Please elaborate rather than just making a claim.

Because the books wouldn't look so awful, for starters. On top of that, the books might be organized in a way that makes logical sense, and pulls you through the process of learning the game, including interesting tidbits of the lore and reasoning behind the rules as you go, so that when you come out the other side, you're educated and can actually play. Go read Dark Heresy or an L5R book. Those guys have professional copy-editors, and it shows. They also sell far more books than Palladium does. It's not an accident.

E: "...Think about what a new player sees when they see a Rifts book."

LS: "This is a really silly statement. Not only are you making a generalization, but it's a generalization that you cannot possibly make. It's like saying, "Think about what a new visitor to Europe thinks". You can say what you think or what you've personally witnessed from others, but you can't make a claim about what ALL new players are going to think."

Actually, as a gamer, and a new(er) one, he is fully entitled to offer an opinion on what the average modern gamer thinks when they pick up a Palladium book.

Nice evasion. I said he cannot make a blanket generalization. You reply: "He's entitled to offer his opinion". Yes, but he is not entited to make a generalization like I said.

Miss that part where i said the lackluster sales of Palladium product and resulting financial difficulties bore out his feelings.

LS: "Less expensive to buy, publish, and ship. Also, the books are robust. I have a original copy of Atlantis that has been in heavy use for over 10 years and only now is the cover starting to wear out. Most of my other books are still at 80% after 10-20 years."

Completely irrelevant. If the book looks and feels cheap, they aren't even intersted in buying it, and while it may be cheaper to buy, that's largely irrelevant - if anything, the rapid expansion of the hobby has shown that there are millions of people out there who dont mind spending 40$ on a 100-ish page supplement. Enough to drive the D&D division of WotC to record profits year after year, at least, and dozens of other companies making a living off of d20 - like Pathfinder's creators. The core tabletop gamer doesn't care - or largely even NOTICE - that he's saving 10 bucks a book because its softcover and black and white; with the total lack of "pick up appeal", theyre going right past them to the much more attractive and well laid out book next to them - like, say, Dark Heresy; those books are expensive as hell, but both of the local game shop owners i deal with for the conventions i deal with report that that line easily outsells Palladium 2 or 3 to 1. And that is here in Michigan, Palladium's "hometown".

Now you've changed your argument. Since you forgot, we were talking about new gamers, not core gamers. The entire discussion that I've been replying to is about new gamers and Eashmael's claim that they are going to automatically hate PB - which I believe is false based on experience. I promote Rifts to people all the time and I never ever hear people make any of the claims that you and Easmael have made.

One thing both of you have claimed is that new player "are going to react" or "will react". -- That's pure speculation on both of your parts. I wonder how many times you've actually seen new players pick up a Rifts book and declare, "This book sucks because it doesn't have color images". Since neither of you have cited an actual example, your claim is empty.

You're saying: "I think they will do this" - but you don't know how new gamers are going to react; you cannot know that because everyone is different and attracted to different aspecs of games.

Didn't change any arguments; the conversation moved on to what kind of books people buy; as for core gamers not being new gamers - new gamers buy what the core gamers are playing. If they go into a shop that doesn't carry Palladium products because no one that frequents the shop plays Palladium products or buys them - guess what they aren't going to buy?

I'm saying - i have marketing experience and part of my degree dealt with marketing publications; part of what they teach you is how to (as accurately as possible) predict what drives new customers. If i'd kept my hand in the business, i could tell you with an almost scientific certainty what the average RPG consumer will do. WotC, Paizo - they have guys whose job it is to know this stuff. Palladium doesn't have someone, and it shows.

LS: "True, however color takes quite a bit longer to produce, is more exensive, and can significantly delay publication time as well as running up costs for both the publisher & the consumer."

The consumer doesn't care.

Another Generalization Fallacy.

--SNIP--

Wrong again. The market has proven that it is willing to pay for more expensive books if it perceives them to be better quality. Otherwise, people wouldn't buy 30-40$ sourcebooks that are only 90-120 pages in length... and yet they do (in droves), and they DONT buy nearly as many of these supposedly superior Palladium products.

E: "No internal designs, patterns, page themes, ect"

LS: "That's an personal aesthetics issue. I remember Lejentia from Flying Buffalo Games had extensive internal page designs and it was rather nauseating to read. Samething with Rollmaster, Middle Earth, and several others."

You ever see the show Bar Rescue? If not, ill tell you what makes it different from all those other "rescue so-and-so failing business" shows - Science. The guy who does the show, John Taffer, doesn't rely on "his gut" - he relies on science. There's a science to everything in a bar or eatery, from the menu design (designed to draw the eye to the money-making dishes/drinks on the menu), internal layout (to reduce noise polution, etc), curb appeal - everything.

It's the same with publishing and graphic design.

It is not the same with publishing and graphic design. False Analogy Fallacy.
[/quote]

I think you need to stop looking at Wikipedia and trying to randomly throw in words you dont understand. It is *exactly* the same with publishing and graphic design. There is a science to every single piece of a document, to making it more presentable, eye-catching, to drawing the eyes where you want, when you want, to promote specific items, phrases, or bodies of text or art. I spent the better part of 30 credit hours learning all about it, and do about 12 hours of continuing education every year to keep my hand in, because the science is constantly refined and updated.

You get a bachelors in publishing or graphic design, you spend the better part of a YEAR learning this stuff. A whole year, ~28-30 credit hours, on the science of publishing.

Argument From Authority Fallacy.

allow me to translate for you:
I cant refute your argument because i have no idea what im talking about and you do, so ill try to improperly accuse you of a form of debate fallacy that you cant actually be in violation of, because you're actually educated on this topic."

what you're doing is textbook ad hominem - trying to attack me to draw attention away fromt he fact that you're getting smoked.

E: :'Simple' two column layout which makes the book seem like a novel. This last point is key. 200 pages of black and white, two column, no breaks, no sideboxes, it looks neither fun nor imaginative, and is VERY intimidating to new players."

LS: "With all due respect, I think you projecting your personal conclusions on other players. The two-column layout is not "intimidating". Also, there's tons of artwork that breaks up the formatting. For example: Rifts:Japan - Pages with half-page or 1/4 page art that breaks up the formating: 8, 9, 10-full page, 13-full page, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 23, 25-full page, 26, 27-full page, 28, 31-full page, 39, 45-full page, 47, 49, 50, 51, 54, 56, 58, 65, 67-full page, 71, 74, 79, 81-full page, 83, 85, 86, 88, 90, 91, 92, 94, 95, 97, 103-full page, 106, 108, 111, 113, etc, etc, etc.. Almost all other Rifts (and other PB systems) are the same."

It isn't just about art - it's about page layout in the entirety -

E says there's no art and it's just pure text. I prove him wrong. You say, "It doesn't count." How convenient.

No, what i said was, "large parts of the books are still giant infodump walls of text", which is a HUGE design faux pas.

but beside that, your example still plainly shows there are entire pages that are just simple two-column walls of text. Art comes maybe every third page, on average, and there are no headers, footers, sidebars - nothing to draw the eye.

As I previously stated (and you ignored), not everyone likes or wants that. But please feel free to use another logical fallacy to defend your
position.

--technical info cut--

"--info that shows im entirely wrong cut so i can try to make myself look good--"

Wether or not 'everyone' wants that stuff, the proof is in the sales. Palladium gets crushed in the market.

E: "Hundred plus pages of text. Just text. Giant walls of text."

LS: "That is 100% completely wrong as I just demonstrated in my above example. Perhaps you should actually try reading a Rifts book at some point."

Not really; you demonstrated that there are still probably 1/2-2/3 of the book that are giant walls of text.

Again, you change the argument to suit you. Eashmael made a obviously false claim; I prove him wrong, and then you minimize and change the argument. Very convenient.

For future reference: if you're planning on replying to me, please stay on topic.

I have, if you cant follow basic conversational transitions, that isn't my problem. It's all pertinent; you saying "nuh uh" doesn't make it any less true.

Now, in addition to speaking for all new RPG players, you are also speaking for me. When I said I "introduced" people to it, all that means is I asked them to play a game with me. I didn't hold their hand or any of the other actions you cast me as doing.

I'll just straight up go right ahead and call you a bald-faced liar. I dont believe for one moment you just let them sit there with the rulebook saying nothing, not helping them, until they learned everything, and they all loved it. If that's what you're trying to tell me, ill re-iterate: you're a liar. And not a terribly good one.

--SNIP to the end---

Even though most of your arguments are based on logical fallacies and most of your responses are evasions, I'm glad we had this discussion, actually. It's always interesting to me what reasons people give for their dislike of PB.

Except i dont dislike Palladium. I still come here because i care. I want the company to excell and reclaim its former glory.

You try to claim that all is right in the world and that Palladium makes a flawless product full of sunshine and good vibes, and you do the internet equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and yelling "nananananananannanana IM NOT LISTENING!!!!!!!" when someone comes up with dozens of valid arguments about why all is NOT alright.

If things were OK, Palladium wouldn't be near bankruptcy; Kevin's personal finances wouldn't be inextricably linked to the company (meaning, when/if Palladium goes down, he's likely going to be homeless and have no retirement plan to speak of - and i dont wish that on ANYONE.), the few employees they have wouldn't have to work other, full time jobs and work at Palladium for free, and the company would be competitive in the market.

The truth you're trying to avoid so hard is that all is not well. There's no getting around it, no sugarcoating it, and no refuting it. Palladium is in trouble. The company barely functions, misses deadlines by YEARS, has little to no traction in the core tabletop gamer market (Go to Dragon*Con sometime - four entire floors of the Hilton for tabletop games... NO Palladium games being run - at a con with 80,000 people in attendance), has a terrible reputation for being clunky, impossible to play, not worth the time, etc. There are plenty of other companies in the market that are flourishing, but Palladium is not one of them, and you can't just wave that away.

The last thing Kev and the company need is people blowing smoke up their rears about things. What he needs, really, is for the hardcore fans - people like me, and Flatline, and Subjugator, and KC, and maybe even you, to call them on the carpet. Palladium needs a wake-up call, an intervention, so to speak. I want Palladium to get better, so that when i ask a room crowded with hundreds of gamers at a convention what they think of Palladium i dont get back an audible groan. Continuing to pretend everything is perfect is just going to lead to more of the same - missed deadlines, no shelf space devoted to the product, no books selling, and, eventually, no matter how hard Kev works at it... Palladium cannot go on like this forever. he's got to get ahead of it and stop treading water.

And the only way that is going to happen is if people are honest with him and the company about it.

the TL:DR version:

WotC sells product as fast as they can create it, Paizo is going gangbusters, Steve Jackson games is doing well, AEG is doing great.... Palladium isn't. The proof is in the market. Palladium doesn't compete in the market, and in a lot of cases stores dont even carry the product because it is so hard to move it. If that is ever going to change, Palladium has to change. Get over the technophobia. Get a copy editor, rework the out-dated rules, get a writers bible so Kev doesn't hand-rewrite every freelancer submission. Maybe parlay Robotech's success (if it is one) into going after another, lucrative franchise (Palladium's system would do an excellent job at Halo, and that would bring in millions of potential customers).

Adapt or die. And right now, Palladium's not doing the former.

I think it would be worthwhile to produce a cheap and simplified Rifts(RUE)-lite add-on product using these design principles and see if it improves sales. Limit the financial cost so it doesn't critically affect your overall bottom line and give it a go. That way we can get away from arguments about fallacies and the like. Empiricism FTW.

Ninjabunny wrote:Jaymz is an official MA and he pushes this system and game harder then most folks you will meet and he has pointed to problems he hits which again are the problems being brought up.

And to be honest I am getting to a point where I am not sure it is really worth the effort anymore beyond the local con. I have tried unsuccessfully to run Rifts, Robotech, Ninjas & Superspies, Heroes Unlimited, Chaos Earth, Phaseworld, Beyond the Supernatural, and Fantasy for the last several years (YEARS as in the last 6) at my local shop. I managed one Rifts game that lasted 4 months (This was in the 1st year) and the players gave up because they just did not like the clunkyness they felt existed. I've run Rifts games at my local con for the last 2 and half years and the attendance varied from full table with other wishing they could have played to only 2 players signing up. I found out later those two tables that were full were only because many of those players couldn't get into the game they wanted to play.

I AM doing my part. Damian is as well even more that I am. There are others who aren't on here too. Basically we ARE doing what we can but it isn't really resulting in anything.

I think SKYPE'S really gonna broaden the playing field.

Little Snuzzles wrote:

jaymz wrote:And to be honest I am getting to a point where I am not sure it is really worth the effort anymore beyond the local con. I have tried unsuccessfully to run Rifts, Robotech, Ninjas & Superspies, Heroes Unlimited, Chaos Earth, Phaseworld, Beyond the Supernatural, and Fantasy for the last several years (YEARS as in the last 6) at my local shop. I managed one Rifts game that lasted 4 months (This was in the 1st year) and the players gave up because they just did not like the clunkyness they felt existed. I've run Rifts games at my local con for the last 2 and half years and the attendance varied from full table with other wishing they could have played to only 2 players signing up. I found out later those two tables that were full were only because many of those players couldn't get into the game they wanted to play.

I applaud the work you've put in as well as that of others here. One question about the Rifts game you ran. You said the players felt it was clunky. How so? -- Not asking to debate you, but so I can better understand the problem.

I AM doing my part. Damian is as well even more that I am. There are others who aren't on here too. Basically we ARE doing what we can but it isn't really resulting in anything.

Yes, and that's why we need to find a new solution if we can. Clearly what's being done right now is not working. Since we cannot change the system, perhaps we can find a different way of promoting it and demonstrating to people that it can be a really fun game.

No offense but I am not going to go over the same tired old arguments about the system here. You don't see those issues so explaining them here for the umpteenth time (in general not to you specifically) is not going to get anyone anywhere. Especially since you've already said yourself you don't see the system changing anytime soon so why bother discussing it? Also I get the same issues in all my con games as well so it isn't just this one game where I have encountered it.

As for doing anything different...no sure what CAN be done differently. I advertise my games where I can, I run games when I actually get responses (I have had none for the past year yet still advertise). Beyond running demos the fun aspect can't be demonstrated. That's one of the reason I hope Robotech Tactics will be a success....so i can do a Rift's version and introduce them THAT way. Until then there is very little to nothing more I myself can do.

The system's issues and the additional perceived issues of the system ARE the biggest problem. If they system won't get changed (even if it is the way I think it should which is more of a cleaning up/clarifying/expanding where needed/streamlining where needed/reorganizing of said system) we can advertise and promote until the cows come home as I've already said. Flash gets the attention. Palladium has long since lost it's luster. Substance keeps it. You can polish what people perceive as a "turd" all you like but they still see a "turd". The "turd" has to be changed not polished.

Edit- and before anyone get's their nose out of joint I am not saying Palladium is a turd, it is an analogy.e

Little Snuzzles wrote:

jaymz wrote:No offense but I am not going to go over the same tired old arguments about the system here.

No offense taken. I'm well aware of the issues that some people have with the rules. What I'm asking about is: specifically when the did the players complain about the clunkiness? At the beginning? During combat? After the game? etc.

If we can pin-point where the problem arises, perhaps we can find a way to counter-ballance it.

As for doing anything different...no sure what CAN be done differently. I advertise my games where I can, I run games when I actually get responses (I have had none for the past year yet still advertise). Beyond running demos the fun aspect can't be demonstrated.

Maybe, maybe not. People once said that tampon commmercials would never work on TV, but seveal companies found a way to make them work. Nothing is impossible.

That's one of the reason I hope Robotech Tactics will be a success....so i can do a Rift's version and introduce them THAT way. Until then there is very little to nothing more I myself can do.

I agree with you that RT:Tac could be a really good entry point into PB.

All three. I explained the basic rules to them and had many questions as to the reasoning. It cropped in game as well and after game too.

The companies themselves changed their methodology not the users.

I think a Rifts version would be a better entry point but that's me.

And you may have missed my edits to my original post

Little Snuzzles wrote:
True, but the managed to sell a traditionally-private product in a public venue in a way that wasn't patently offensive to the consumer; the product didn't change - the way it was marketed did. Using the same analogy: we can't change the product, but if we can find a way to market it to people differently, perhaps we can sway them.

I understand where you are coming from, I really do, however it has been discussed ad nauseum as well, and we are yet to see any demonstrable change in the company's efforts in this regard. It CANNOT be all on us for this to work.

The Rifts and Fantasy GM packs were great additions to my efforts but it still had zero effect. I can promote the greatness of the settings and that the system allows you to do virtually anything....and have done so and still nothing. the best I have accomplished is the get a response of "great setting but system needs changing" though i will say this the amount of change does vary from person to person and is the primary reason I do not think the rules themselves need a wholesale redo.

So the question becomes what is worth salvaging?

Are the settings worth salvaging? Absolutely!

Is the system worth salvaging? Only if it's possible to "fix" the system without needing to convert and reprint all the material that exists. If the fix requires reprinting all existing material, then I would think that it's probably a better idea to create a new system from scratch or port the settings over to an established system that can handle it.

--flatline

Little Snuzzles wrote:
(Sidebar: BTW, thanks for your even-handed way of discussing things. This is what the forum needs more of.)

Key is I try to not make it personal or take things personally. Too many do.

flatline wrote:Are the settings worth salvaging? Absolutely!

Depends on what you mean by salvaging

I think if they were to focus on the big 3 +1 (Rifts, Heroes, Fantasy + Robotech) then things could go in a better direction. Everything else needs to be put into the Rifter and/or be made made into Dimension books. Let Wayne handle the Rifters/Dimension books (BtS2, Splicers, DR, N&SS and I hate to say it but Nighspawn as well) and Kevin can focus on his big 3 +1. Also start assiging what is wanted/needed by the customers (Lazlo, GAW, Exanded England etc) as opposed to what Freelancer X's writing up his/her pet project.

Dimensions books don't need to follow some "vision" since they are Dimension books not one of the core 3 +1.

cyberdon wrote:I think SKYPE'S really gonna broaden the playing field.

You're going to have to elaborate on this one - Skype has been around for almost a decade. It hasn't really "broadened the playing field" yet.

There are even apps that you can use with skype that present a virtual tabletop so that everyone connected can see the "die rolls", what the GM draws, etc.

They are pretty niche though, and haven't seriously expanded gaming.

jaymz wrote:

flatline wrote:Are the settings worth salvaging? Absolutely!

Depends on what you mean by salvaging

I think if they were to focus on the big 3 +1 (Rifts, Heroes, Fantasy + Robotech) then things could go in a better direction. Everything else needs to be put into the Rifter and/or be made made into Dimension books. Let Wayne handle the Rifters/Dimension books (BtS2, Splicers, DR, N&SS and I hate to say it but Nighspawn as well) and Kevin can focus on his big 3 +1. Also start assiging what is wanted/needed by the customers (Lazlo, GAW, Exanded England etc) as opposed to what Freelancer X's writing up his/her pet project.

Dimensions books don't need to follow some "vision" since they are Dimension books not one of the core 3 +1.

I agree with the general idea here; part of this process is developing a Writers Bible for the Big Three, and requesting that HG provide a Writers Bible for Robotech.

a WB solves the inconsistency and continuity issues - the majority of them at least - and means that a LOT less proof-reading and re-writing has to take place to make a product fit.

Ideally, what needs to happen is each micro-franchise (Dead Reign, Nightbane, etc) needs to have a guy in charge of it who is responsible for keeping the continuity, and the same with the big franchises.

For the micro franchises, they can be managed more or less by one single person. Each major franchise should have a guy (even if it is someone working under Kev) who is the fact checker/continuity boss to check for internal consistency.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

jaymz wrote:

flatline wrote:Are the settings worth salvaging? Absolutely!

Depends on what you mean by salvaging

I think if they were to focus on the big 3 +1 (Rifts, Heroes, Fantasy + Robotech) then things could go in a better direction. Everything else needs to be put into the Rifter and/or be made made into Dimension books. Let Wayne handle the Rifters/Dimension books (BtS2, Splicers, DR, N&SS and I hate to say it but Nighspawn as well) and Kevin can focus on his big 3 +1. Also start assiging what is wanted/needed by the customers (Lazlo, GAW, Exanded England etc) as opposed to what Freelancer X's writing up his/her pet project.

Dimensions books don't need to follow some "vision" since they are Dimension books not one of the core 3 +1.

I agree with the general idea here; part of this process is developing a Writers Bible for the Big Three, and requesting that HG provide a Writers Bible for Robotech.

a WB solves the inconsistency and continuity issues - the majority of them at least - and means that a LOT less proof-reading and re-writing has to take place to make a product fit.

Ideally, what needs to happen is each micro-franchise (Dead Reign, Nightbane, etc) needs to have a guy in charge of it who is responsible for keeping the continuity, and the same with the big franchises.

For the micro franchises, they can be managed more or less by one single person. Each major franchise should have a guy (even if it is someone working under Kev) who is the fact checker/continuity boss to check for internal consistency.

and lands smack dab in the middle of the catch 22
it requires a cash flow that pally currently cannot afford...
but without some changes from the company no new steady revenue stream will happen.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

cyberdon wrote:I think SKYPE'S really gonna broaden the playing field.

You're going to have to elaborate on this one - Skype has been around for almost a decade. It hasn't really "broadened the playing field" yet.

There are even apps that you can use with skype that present a virtual tabletop so that everyone connected can see the "die rolls", what the GM draws, etc.

They are pretty niche though, and haven't seriously expanded gaming.

Post a link so I can give it to my new GM.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

jaymz wrote:

flatline wrote:Are the settings worth salvaging? Absolutely!

Depends on what you mean by salvaging

I think if they were to focus on the big 3 +1 (Rifts, Heroes, Fantasy + Robotech) then things could go in a better direction. Everything else needs to be put into the Rifter and/or be made made into Dimension books. Let Wayne handle the Rifters/Dimension books (BtS2, Splicers, DR, N&SS and I hate to say it but Nighspawn as well) and Kevin can focus on his big 3 +1. Also start assiging what is wanted/needed by the customers (Lazlo, GAW, Exanded England etc) as opposed to what Freelancer X's writing up his/her pet project.

Dimensions books don't need to follow some "vision" since they are Dimension books not one of the core 3 +1.

I agree with the general idea here; part of this process is developing a Writers Bible for the Big Three, and requesting that HG provide a Writers Bible for Robotech.

a WB solves the inconsistency and continuity issues - the majority of them at least - and means that a LOT less proof-reading and re-writing has to take place to make a product fit.

Ideally, what needs to happen is each micro-franchise (Dead Reign, Nightbane, etc) needs to have a guy in charge of it who is responsible for keeping the continuity, and the same with the big franchises.

For the micro franchises, they can be managed more or less by one single person. Each major franchise should have a guy (even if it is someone working under Kev) who is the fact checker/continuity boss to check for internal consistency.

and lands smack dab in the middle of the catch 22
it requires a cash flow that pally currently cannot afford...
but without some changes from the company no new steady revenue stream will happen.

There's a 'do, or do not' waiting to come out here. Kev either figures out how to break this catch-22 or he might as well pack it in right now, instead of going down with the ship.

Unless things are fantastically more dire than i think, he should be able to secure a small business loan, given 25+ years of history. Maybe he cant because he already did that, but in that case...

Put out the word that he needs people to fill those positions, and find people willing to do it on spec, or people who need to fill out intern hours for their degrees. Both come cheap. Some people in the field would do it purely for portfolio credit. The bigger problem, IMO is Kev's well known inability to not re-do all the work of people he's paid to do work. The problem isn't about finding people to do the work - like i said, there are people who would probably do it for free or for pay-after-there-is-profit, but Kev would then have to get out of these people's way and let them do the work without hovering and rewriting everything they do.

edit:
Same with an experienced copy editor and compositor. My big fear is even if Kev found one to do work relatively cheap or freeish, he'd constantly go to war with them until they quit. The quality of the books wouldn't improve, etc. He needs to hire that individual and then, by god, listen to them. That, i think, is a far larger problem than finding someone to do it cheap or finding the money to pay full freight for a pro.

I have three thoughts about this discussion:

LS, you complain about ICE's Rolemaster/MERP. To be honest, yes they had a lot of tables, but once you GMed (and this was the firs game i ever played and GMed. I learned that, despite all the tables, the game and battles went more smoothly than Rifts does. I love these games, not just for a rather smooth set of rules that can be made how advanced you want them to be, but if you only have the three main books, you got everything you needed in order to:

* Create your character
* Rules that are clear, do not contradict with other books, or elsewhere in the core books.
* Rules for weather
* Magic
* Equipment
* Build your own world, city, village
* Travel rules, how long it takes to travel from A to B in different terrains
* Building magical items
* Animals and monsters
* Different player and NPC races
* Encounter tables
* GM Aid
* Data on animals
* NPC lists for all classes from level 1-20 so as a GM
* 4-6 pages of healing herbs, plant potions, poisons etc and data where these plants could be found as well as 10 lines of texts that described the rules how to make useful potions from various plants and how hard it was to do it. Rules that was clear and easy to understand.


If I bought what would in rifts would be a world book, I would get 80-120 pages of world data, NPCs, monsters, adventure ideas, new random encounter tables, and most often a mini campaign, as well as a 4-12 page full color map of the region, city, continent and important adventure locations that could be removed from the book and placed on the table. The same with MERP (Midde Earth RPG) which was even more streamlined and faster. I still have all my MERP books and I can make a map (if i use all fold out maps from the books) that covers 70% of North Western Middle Earth where an inch is equal to 15-20 miles which will cover most of my kitchen floor. Detailed full cover maps where the players can follow their travels. They also made two full color maps, one of NW middle earth (Grey havens-mordor and gondor to angmar, and the other was a map of all of middle earth.

The only thing that the Core Rifts book did better than Rolemaster, was that in Rolemaster corebook, there was no game world described. But if you bought say the box about Shadow world (their world) then you got a 2x1,5 meter full color map of half the world with all islands.

Rifts Corebook still lacks

* Encounter tables
* NPC lists
* Animal lists
* D-Bee races and mutants that one can play
* No maps of the world
* Clear rules that do not contradict itself

Comparing Rolemaster and Merp with Rifts, I think that ICE as a company understood gamers better than what PB did. They eased the GM's work to such an degree that the entire game went smoothly and as a GM, I could throw an adventure together without as much making an NPC beforehand, I had everything in the core book. I had everything from the start till the last enemy "boss" and back home. The gamers could easily just say "we travel west from Shire" and just by looking at the encounter tables, weather tables and NPPC lists we could have an adventure with no pre-work needed by the GM

There is a thing which PB do not have.

As a new player, when I first bought RUE, i looked into it and I was stunned. There were no aid for the GM to run an adventure. Instead there were page afer page of Kevin talking about him running his games and why he named Glitter boys that name etc.

---

2- The outward appearance of a book does count, I still love my green-(shimmering) Vampire Revised books and the black core books with silver-plated pages. Compared to those my Rift books looks uninviting and dull.


---

3- As a dyslexic, I have found it hard to read PB's books. Whereas Pathfinder is inviting and helpful with its pictures and the colored pages. I rather spend money on a Pathfinder core-book or adventure book than on a PB Corebook or world book, if i should choose from a "easy to read" pov. Now I do not like Pathfinder nor the d20 system. But when I go to the LGS I aalways find myself flipping throght the pages of the new pathfinder books, and look at how beautiful they are

From my experience the lack of interest in the system started many years ago. I noticed towards the the end of the 90s that I was finding less and less people to play and/or run any Palladium rpg. As much as some in the hobby want to blame D20 the cracks in the system and less interest in the rules was happening before then. Even when PB had the cash and before the COT quite frankly and to be blunt they were not interested at all in fixing the rules. The system was considered perfect. The advice given. House rule it and "remember all rules are optional". House ruling is good advice except not everyone want to take a system and house rule it. More often than not a person buying the rpg wants to use the rules as is straight out of the box so to speak. The second was just a plain cop-out. Who wants to be told after invest in a rpg that all the rules in a rpg are optional.

A unwilligness to change anything in the rules or improve on anything coupled with cease and desist letters from PB right or wrong soured many gamers on the company and their rpgs. Why would anyone who received a C&D letter want to have anything to do with PB or any of their products let alone promote their products. The company collectively buried their heads in sand and the gaming industry just passed them by. They realized that too late and now are paying the price for it. They have fixed something yet in the grans scheme of things very little. They are in a catch-22 of their own creation.

Imo the fans have done enough. More than enough. I can't see anything short of a new set of rules and better production values that will increase interest. Or if not a new set of rules a streamlined, clear codified set of rules. I'm lucky in my neck of the woods there is a very small group of PB players. Beyond some older players and a few handful of younger players no one is interested in the system. Yet it's the exception not the rule. To be fair though PB is not the only company whose shortsightedness has caused it to be in trouble.

I work for the biggest book chain in Canada. The presence of pirate sites as well as internet pricing has hurt our sales. Really hurting sales. It used to be ten years ago even five years we would always make our budgets. Now it's getting harder and harder to do. My store is in the downtown area. It used to always be packed. Now some days a ghost town. The Starbucks inside our store does better than us on some slow days. It's all because of online prices not being the same in store. Why spend 90$ on a computer book when you can get it for 60$ online free shipping. Hell you can even order amount under the free shipping amount and ship it free to store. They taught the consumer was dumb and they got greedy. Consumers are not interested in rationlization of why it's more expensive in store. They can't get the internet price they order online. A lost sale. The other solution is to sell more non-book product. Which would be a solution. Except once again they mark up the prices to the point where it's cheaper to get elsewhere. Did I also mention that we also sell e-readers. Not helping the print side of the business either. I'm seriously thinking of looking for a new job. Again another classic Catch-22 situation.

What can we do to get more players to play Rifts?

I have tried to play at my local game store, and fewer and fewer people are interested in me GMing Rifts and when I ask them why, they say that they find the game not interesting because of the system, not because i GM. Today I got the comment "I happily play anything you GM, as you are an awesome GM, I just do not want to play that Rifts again. GM anything else and me and my girlfriend will play with you again."

Dunia wrote:What can we do to get more players to play Rifts?

I have tried to play at my local game store, and fewer and fewer people are interested in me GMing Rifts and when I ask them why, they say that they find the game not interesting because of the system, not because i GM. Today I got the comment "I happily play anything you GM, as you are an awesome GM, I just do not want to play that Rifts again. GM anything else and me and my girlfriend will play with you again."

Try BtS.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dunia wrote:What can we do to get more players to play Rifts?

I have tried to play at my local game store, and fewer and fewer people are interested in me GMing Rifts and when I ask them why, they say that they find the game not interesting because of the system, not because i GM. Today I got the comment "I happily play anything you GM, as you are an awesome GM, I just do not want to play that Rifts again. GM anything else and me and my girlfriend will play with you again."

Try BtS.

Or N&SS or DR

In my honest opinion, the best thing Palladium could do to promote people playing their games would be to walk away from the kitchen-sink attitude that permeates the books. If the company were to publish smaller, less expensive, and more focused games that are systemically compatible with each other, it would be much easier for me to sell to new players than the $40 monsterpiece that is Ultimate Edition. I know some folks see part of the appeal of the game is that it's contained (mostly) in a single book, but I think there's just too much in it to be effectively used or marketed. Give me a rules-only or a cheapskate edition and I'll bring you a at least one new customer every month.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dunia wrote:Dunia wrote:
What can we do to get more players to play Rifts?

I have tried to play at my local game store, and fewer and fewer people are interested in me GMing Rifts and when I ask them why, they say that they find the game not interesting because of the system, not because i GM. Today I got the comment "I happily play anything you GM, as you are an awesome GM, I just do not want to play that Rifts again. GM anything else and me and my girlfriend will play with you again."

Try BtS.

jaymz wrote:Or N&SS or DR

Well, I will not buy a whole new game from PB just to get others to know what Rifts and Palladium Books are.

Unfortunately, PB does not do what Steve Jackson Games are doing. My ex-boyfriend is a promoter for their games and a few times each year - he got a big box with a a bunch of boardgames in order to learn them, promote them with friends, LGS and conventions. It was awesome to see a company care for their fans to have their fan promoters actually get a couple of their games to use to attract new players. The MA program here at PB seems light years behind in that aspect.
In the three years that I dated him, Steve Jackson Games filled one of our closets with their games. I hink we ended up wih about 80 different boardgames by the time that we broke up. hough I still go to him and play (and borrow) games every week.

One thing I do not understand about certain people on this forum is the fact that they seem to believe that all fans have an obligation to Palladium Books. Yes we are fans, how incredible it may seem, but I consider myself a fan of Rifts. I might be more vocal than others here on the forums when it comes to hings that I do not like but I still like the Rifts: Earth and Chaos Earth worlds. But to be honest, I do not have any obligation to Palladium Books at all. Not more than Palladium Books have an obligation to send me a letter each time I GM one of their games.

In my eyes, Palladium Books is a company that supplies me with something that I happen to like. I will not buy their every product, nor am I obligated to sugarcoat when people ask me about Rifts and PB. I am honest when people wants to know how the world is (Wonderful, one of the best that I have seen in an post-apocalyptic high-science-fantasy), the system (a few rules are good, but all in all the system is a joke IMHO), how much support PB gives (a total of 2-4 books per year to one or more of their 10+ gamelines), how much input they take from their fans (none that I have ever seen,unless you praise them to the skies, but they ignore constructive criticism and any negative comments) etc.

I just wonder if you who feel that the fans have an obligation to PB also feel an obligation to Coca Cola Company, Opel, Dolce Gabbana or K-mart after you start buying their stuff? What makes PB so special that some people feels that they (and all others) should have a special obligation to Kevin and his company?