Query about South America II

[Killer Cyborg]

Mmm laser bow... like Hank's from the Dungeons & Dragons cartoon...

Meh, I don't see the problem. People still use bows today, so might as well laserfy 'em.

Hank's bow was fine- it was a 6th level magic item. It was supposed to break the laws of physics.
But the Laser Bow isn't magic. It's just stupendously bad "science" that breaks the laws of physics in order to perpetuate modern stereotypes of Native Americans.

Even if it didn't break the laws of physics, it'd still be a lame idea.
Lasers and arrows work differently. Lasers don't arc, and they don't take wind and other factors into consideration, so if you practiced enough with a laser bow to be good at it, it'd only screw up your ability to use a normal bow.

But man... let's not get into this in a thread on South America!

[Akashic Soldier]

@ Akashic: Agreed. Except Lone Star is a massive complex involving hundreds of scientists, a small mega cities worth of facilities as cutting edge as a North American power utilizing almost purely Golden Age gear can get, and literally thousands of aides and support personnel. Compare that against the statements that say that ALL of the strains of mutants listed in South America (1 & 2, and the Amphibians from Underseas apparently) were utterly viable AT the time of the Great Cataclysm. It wouldn’t be until sometime after 18 PA or so that they had established themselves securely enough to emerge as a full city state in their own right.
So South America managed to produce perfectly viable super animal mutants prior to the coming of the Rifts?! The woman that saved them from being eliminated during the Great Cataclysm apparently bore three of the fist Neo-Humans in her own womb. I can understand a non-US group making such advances, but why hasn’t the C.S. started to approach parity here? Either they aren’t that good yet, and might never be, or South American Mutant Animals are better than the game world should allow…much like a lot of other things in these two books.

Didn't NEMA have a ban on genetic experimentation, which is why the Amphib project was out at sea in the first place in open waters outside of U.S. law?
In theory, if the South Americans had the same thing going on and were doing illegal experimentation, wouldn't that make sense too?

I don't know, it had always just " worked " for me so I'd never given it too much thought.

I guess my main issue with the Paratrooper is that he is still a first level character. How has he had the time to complete his super human, superior to Special Forces degree of training, and become trusted enough by the Black Market to attain his status as a “made man”? I have other issues with the O.C.C., but those aren’t the issue at hand here. Especially since you clearly DON’T have those same issues. But I still have to wonder how this super Delta level troop managed to scrap up the time to gain so much trust from the mob? This seems more like the kind of thing an experienced trooper would have accomplished, trained, served his time to pay off his training, struck out on his own, gotten noticed by the Markets scouts, and then worked his way inside over a period of time. And he did all of that and never gained a level? Or he didn’t do all of that, and shouldn’t have those abilities until he earns them in play. Or, lastly, he shouldn’t actually be 1st level here, but closer to 4th or 6th or similar.

In R:UE in the experience section, it uses Batman from Year One as an example of a first level character. Batman has had significantly more happen in his life than ole Nicky. His training and travels were far more extensive, but he was still considered a First level character. That is what I've always used as a measuring bar. I've tried starting the character at a place where they're strong and can improve as time goes on, assuming of course the player wanted to keep playing them.

Now that I think of it, I honestly haven’t got any real idea of what monsters are present in South America. At least not any more than the monsters listed in the two books, and many of them aren’t really the equivalent as a dragonsaurus…which I am not overly familiar with anyhow, I just thought this creature was an Altantean thing. Which is right next door(-ish), so I guess that works here.

Thanks, I honestly could not find anything else that looked even close to that thing in the picture.

However, their OCC write up makes it clear that they can trade those starting spells for wards only if exposed to them. It also states that the South Americans haven’t had any such exposure. So starting with them at first level doesn’t really make sense. If you wrote him up an an NPC with a higher level, say 4th or 5th, fine, he came to North America, and was exposed to this new magic he instinctively understood. Even 2nd level wouldn’t be illegal, however unlikely it might be. But to trade away starting level slots for abilities he can’t ever have encountered by the time he finished his training? That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me chief.

Mine doesn't say that, it says that they can be traded at Game Master discretion. I thought "it seemed reasonable" and wasn't overpowered.

Making a 1st level character unique compared to other 1st level characters of the same type IS difficult, but it really should be. Because a 1st level character is supposed to be built according to their class restrictions, even the inferred ones. It takes a great deal of back story to explain why a 1st level anything is getting special dispensation in their stating abilities, attributes or gear. So special that it typically makes more sense to expect this special dispensation o come about because of role playing and adventuring, rather than just going, “this will be neat!” and slapping it in. So in essence, no, I don’t feel either of those points for those two characters are reasonable for a starting character.

Well, I tried my hardest to make memorable characters and so far the other ambassadors like them, so I guess you can't please everyone. I'll try harder with the next lot I guess.

BTW, the laser bow? I recognize why KC hates it (I think it was KC, but I forgot now, if not, apologies and all that nice stuff!) I don’t happen to really care for it much either, but I am willing to ignore it mainly because none of my players would even take one, and fewer still would instantly see the serious issue this thing has technology wise. That, and no matter what anyone says, Eric’s Light Bow was freaking awesome, and much like any variant of the Light Saber, gets a more or less automatic “PASS” from me. Again, I personally asked Mill’s Lane, and he responded form my DVD recording that he would allow it!

[Akashic's "Rifts is more than 200 years in the future we cannot predict or even fathom their technological breakthroughs in a scientific capacity as science can only project up to 70 years from the present with any reliability" argument].

That said, overall, the actually character write ups aren’t really bad, though I get nervous when I see HP & SDC by location.

Game Master Guide/Compendium of Modern Weapons.

The skills seemed mostly alright, and you avoided giving Nicky Commando, which is good.

He's an assassin more than he is a soldier, so it only made sense. Its like when you said it didn't make sense for his M.E. to be so high. I mean, as a sniper, he is trained to sit on a rooftop or in a swamp for days (sometimes weeks at a time) and that requires a great deal of physical and psychological endurance. Plus, if you talk to any sniper in real life and ask them the hardest part of their job, they'll tell you that its staying focused and not getting sloppy. At least, that is what my friend told me when he asked a buddy who is training to become a sniper and that was the answer we got back. So you know, M.E. made sense.

- Nicky is a third generation Paratrooper: Really? Aircraft like that didn’t really exist even a generation ago. The only thing that seems to come close on the North American is maybe some TW flying ships, and the CS DHT. Nothing else seems appropriate. And the DHT doesn’t go back two generations. Was his grandpa leaping off the backs of dragons or something?

Paratroopers, as listen in the O.C.C., are the best mercenaries in North America. They're elite soldiers, they're not JUST dudes who jump out of planes. Plus, if golden age planes exist and the parachuting skill exists, it only made sense to me that the long standing tactic of jumping behind enemy lines and killing people would still exist. Thus, third generation Paratrooper.

- Playboy/Assassin/Sniper/Paratrooper/Made-Man…uh…huh…so, he’s an evil Batman then?

Actually, he's more like a gangster version of Slade, except you know... with a dual stun batons and a sniper rifle.

- Nicky is Evil…specifically Aberrant…and has a penchant for sniping, and a 30 M.E. Is this intended to be a character that is actually for use as a PC, and is the majority of the people he hangs with both evil and willing to step aside of his ego? Cause if not, the one’s he doesn’t consider friends are going to grow a third eye when he hits them for 1D6x20 form 3,975’ away one night…

You can play any character as a psychotic killer. I specifically state in his write up (this one I remember), that he doesn't kill people unless that is his mark (its unprofessional) and goes against his code of ethics. In essence he's a "Rifts" version of the classic a gangster "Sweeper" stereotype. He breaks hearts, cracks skulls, and is a bit of a rogue. Going outside the law to get results.

- Nicky likes to travel light…with an ATL-7…and a Long Gun…and four pistols…hmm… *looks up the definition of traveling light* …I see…

Actually, I'm not positive because I have not read it in a while, but I am almost certain that I made clear that he DOESNT carry around his sniper rifles and such, instead going to retrieve them when needed for a mission like a normal sniper?

Most of these things are only truly applicable to an experienced character chief. At 1st level, he really isn’t likely to have accumulated so many of these fairly notable quirks. You wrote him up as a dragon, a powerful henchmen to a major boss, but he hasn’t actually earned that status yet.

I wrote him up as a useful tool, skilled (and somewhat repentant) killer. At least I tried, something must have gone wrong in the translation.

Mendoza’s background is actually really neat

Thank you. Ironically, I felt he had one of the duller/blander origin stories, but he was never SUPPOSED to be incredible because of his skills (like Nicky), but because of who he was. So in my mind, he needed to do less. Its the type of character designed for more passive players who don't want to throw themselves right into the game. You can use them in the story because of their birthright, or who they are, rather than relying on them to kick butt and take names to get attention.

but you might want to squirrel away a real good reason why he wandered from North America, through the Vampire Kingdoms, and through all the other stuff that would have killed, enslaved, or eaten his not even 1st level butt. I would actually presume that one of the gods from Nazca land was directly watching over him, and did it in such a way he never even noticed what was going on.

That was always my theory as well. A sort of divine exodus if you would, traveling south through the wilderness, avoiding trouble by mostly avoiding heavily populated areas.

I am a bit suspicious of using Entryway as you have it listed. Having actually been inside of a tank, three feet of penetration should get one inside of say, an M-1 Abrams from the side. I can’t imagine a giant robot is going to possess much more than an M-1 in thickness. On the other hand, if a robot is moving in any way, shape or form, you aren’t drawing a doorway on it. Especially not when it takes two actions. Standing still? Sure, I can see that, but if it moves in any way, you lose those actions, cause your “canvas has just shifted upwards of several meters, and the multiple ton warmachine is guaranteed to jog your arm if you’re hanging off of it! It’s a cool idea in certain circumstances, though it sort of steps outside the intent of the spell. This will be an overpowering ability if he can do it with any frequency against manned and mobile opposition, but if he can’t normally use it, then it is a unique interpretation of an ability, an interpretation that I feel steps outside the intent of the ability mind you, but doesn’t appear to actually break any rules so far as I can see here, and therefore makes for a potentially “Crowning Moment of Awesome” type situation!

Thank you. However, remember, a melee round is 15 seconds. Which means that the average attack takes about 2 to 2.5 seconds. Which means that he can draw an entry way in chalk on someone in about 4 or 5 seconds (this becomes significantly faster as he gains more attacks per melee and his response time decreases). Of course, as you said, a tank or other vehicle could easily speed away. However, the CHALLENGE is making sure it doesn't. Either by finding a way to sneak up on it while your friends distract it, or by the guys in the tank thinking that there's nothing you can do.

The pattern armor notation is also interesting. I would say his ME of 10 and his Scrupulous alignment would make plucking a foe’s heart out difficult at best…but he is apparently trained by Nazcans and exposed to Incans at a bare minimum…so heart plucking is probably a cultural skill down there…right?

Yup, that was the idea. I probably should have given him a higher M.E. attribute (but I only had a 10), and I wanted it to always be a big deal. The same way putting people to sleep forever was a big deal. Most of his "most extreme" powers, are not SUPPOSED to be used willy-nilly BECAUSE he is scrupulous (I almost made him principled but after studying their religious practices it wouldn't have worked).

Either way, most vehicle screws in robots and vehicles wear armor in Rifts Earth. Smaller Robots might not. Power Armor can’t, but the chances you are going to draw squat on a suit of PA are essentially nil really.

If he can hit (land a successful strike) and no one can stop him. He can draw a passage way in virtually anything. The likelihood of someone stopping him relies on a few factors.

#1. His opponent knowing what he can do (its an uncommon ability).
#2. His opponent rolling a successful dodge/parry or not being in melee combat. This is VERY easy with power armor, but again, anything is possible and Mendoza isn't alone. He should have a part of other player characters backing him up. Since ESSENTIALLY most of his magic a support-based (walls of force, makeshift escape hatches, etc).

Why is he carrying a sword that he spent so much time making invisible, and yet he isn’t even proficient with it? Did I miss that one somewhere?

Because it takes him a few hours to make it invisible. Because he isn't trained in it as part of his story. This is essentially, because one of the RICHEST experiences I EVER had playing a role-playing game was when one of the other player character's took the time to train my character in the use of the sword. It was really fun and a good role-playing opportunity. Sure, anyone can stab someone with a sword or a knife (so its still a very valuable weapon), but learning how to use it is difficult. Besides, he might be able to fight and have some potent combat capabilities. However, he is essentially a practitioner of magic, tattoo artist, and cartographer. He was never out the back training how to fence or fight with swords, and whereas he would LOVE to know how, the opportunity never presented itself. I am sure I covered this in his write up didn't I? Might have to reread/rewrite it.

Also, if the ward is activated by drawing it.

Its not, its always on because it has been woven into the permanence ward. He literally has an invisible sword. Its a cheap tactic but that is how he "levels the playing field" using his magic. I know I explained that one at length.

And hope they don’t wonder by he appears to be carrying nothing and is wearing a sheath? Most opponents wouldn’t make the connection, but anyone with say, fencing, would. W.P. Sword wouldn’t be enough I would think.

EXACTLY. A trained professional (or someone who has fought him before), might cotton on to something (but that still doesn't remove the penalties from not being able to see the weapons; as a GM I would reduce them though, as I would if the sword drew blood, exactly as per the spell). However, the AVERAGE soldier or monster, isn't going to get it and may not be able to compensate or adapt, and THAT is what he is hoping for. Again, its not a flawless strategy, but it wouldn't be FUN if it was. Its bound to work sometimes, and not others.

Do you still want me to look the other Pre-Gens over and comment chief? I am not trying to be accusatory here. After all, you obviously have a much loser interpretation of how things are come by in your setting, so in your setting, I assume there are sufficient threats to warrant what I am seeing.

Essentially, if you're not in a city in my Game, your life is a **** storm. Roaming monsters, marauding bandits and rapists of women, general hellish encounters from beyond the rifts (many with strong demonic/Lovecraftian themes). You know, mostly all Adventure Guide stuff with a few random wilderness encounters with wild animals and such to keep it "realistic." But yes, I typically run a low powered/deadly game. Players have to think. They can use magic and technology as equalizers (as you see with the character's here), but without those equalizers or a good plan/strategy, they're typically at a bit of a disadvantage.

In my games, I don’t go this route often, but I DO from time to time go “off the reservation” and basically make stuff up. So this isn’t really me saying that all this stuff is wrong (though it will sound like that), so much as me saying that I wouldn’t do it that way without a good reason. SO I am assuming your reasons in game are good, or your overriding reason is simply that you DON’T want to restrictive approaches being used to heavily?

I really wanted people introduced to the game to see the MAGIC of "In Rifts you're not just a Wizard with 1D4 Hit Points. You're Aldormon - Master of the Dimensional Precipices and long-lost rightful Prince of Tolkeen", because for me that is what makes Rifts really special and awesome; the fact that you don't just have a dull O.C.C. and race. Your character can be RICH and interesting, and use their abilities in unusual/creative ways. For instance, with Mendoza, they typically use the invisibility ward to make chests invisible so they cannot be stolen. However, he can do all sorts of amazing things with it if he is smart about it. From making a blanket invisible and laying underneath it too making a bridge invisible after he flees so that no one knows how to chase him over a chasm.

I didn't want to LIMIT new players (especially practitioners of magic O.C.C.s, who are TAUGHT to think outside the box), so that they could do anything they can imagine. Nicky for example, is a gangster, he can (and most people don't notice this), essentially shoot while standing on top of a speeding car (without the normal -6 penalty), or fire back over his shoulder as he flees and hit someone right between the eyes (again without penalty) as the rest of the party withdraws. This is a HUGE advantage and it comes up a lot in games and not many characters people build are ACTUALLY skilled enough gunmen that they have the skills to offset these kinds of penalties. So, to a "normal" character with W.P. Firearms (Like say a CS ISS Officer), Nicky is a god. He might be "first level" but he is most skilled than MOST other marksmen and an amazing sniper. The only guys who he is going to encounter that are better gunmen are going to be full-blown Gunslingers; and those guys are SUPPOSED to be better. The same way that Nicky is going to be better than them at sitting on a roof for a week and a half drinking nothing but coffee so he can shoot a politician in the head for the Chicago Network.

Its all situation and circumstance. I made characters that players can use in a certain way (you got a good feel for HOW you were supposed to play Nicky and what he could do, even if you didn't like it!), and he is damn good at it as a first level character. Good enough, so that if another member of the party says "They got James. They took of his leg, but we can't touch the bastards!" than Nicky can "go rogue" light a cigarette and get the job done and get away. It might not be easy, but he is skilled enough to make it happen. He's an assassin, but he's an assassin that is "on your side" and should be an interesting role-playing opportunity for someone who loves that classic rogue hero/gangster stereotype.

As for if I want you to look at the others. Honestly, I don't mind. It is up to you. I'm always happy to hear your opinion. I tried to do the best I can and with constructive criticism (or a little enthusiasm), it'd be a lot easier to do better in the future.

[Giant2005]

BTW, the laser bow? I recognize why KC hates it (I think it was KC, but I forgot now, if not, apologies and all that nice stuff!) I don’t happen to really care for it much either, but I am willing to ignore it mainly because none of my players would even take one, and fewer still would instantly see the serious issue this thing has technology wise. That, and no matter what anyone says, Eric’s Light Bow was freaking awesome, and much like any variant of the Light Saber, gets a more or less automatic “PASS” from me. Again, I personally asked Mill’s Lane, and he responded form my DVD recording that he would allow it!

[Akashic's "Rifts is more than 200 years in the future we cannot predict or even fathom their technological breakthroughs in a scientific capacity as science can only project up to 70 years from the present with any reliability" argument].

That argument isn't really at all needed.
In the Rifts system, there are perfectly mundane bows that inflict 2D6 SDC, all we would need are torque multipliers that could multiply that amount of energy by 100.
We already have that technology, the only limits involved are the mechanical characteristics of the materials used in the converter's components (Which with the addition of MDC materials being 100x times more durable than what we have today, would already multiply our capabilities 100-fold and enough to make up the difference) and size. The only questionable factor is whether or not Rifts era micronization would have advanced sufficiently enough to miniaturize such a system to the extent that it could fit in the inner workings of a Compound Bow. With the availability of MDC components, believing they could miniaturize it to that extent is far from what should be considered a huge leap of faith. I'd even go as far as to say that it is far, far more plausible than most of the technology that people seem to accept more readily.

[flatline]

BTW, the laser bow? I recognize why KC hates it (I think it was KC, but I forgot now, if not, apologies and all that nice stuff!) I don’t happen to really care for it much either, but I am willing to ignore it mainly because none of my players would even take one, and fewer still would instantly see the serious issue this thing has technology wise. That, and no matter what anyone says, Eric’s Light Bow was freaking awesome, and much like any variant of the Light Saber, gets a more or less automatic “PASS” from me. Again, I personally asked Mill’s Lane, and he responded form my DVD recording that he would allow it!

[Akashic's "Rifts is more than 200 years in the future we cannot predict or even fathom their technological breakthroughs in a scientific capacity as science can only project up to 70 years from the present with any reliability" argument].

That argument isn't really at all needed.
In the Rifts system, there are perfectly mundane bows that inflict 2D6 SDC, all we would need are torque multipliers that could multiply that amount of energy by 100.
We already have that technology, the only limits involved are the mechanical characteristics of the materials used in the converter's components (Which with the addition of MDC materials being 100x times more durable than what we have today, would already multiply our capabilities 100-fold and enough to make up the difference) and size. The only questionable factor is whether or not Rifts era micronization would have advanced sufficiently enough to miniaturize such a system to the extent that it could fit in the inner workings of a Compound Bow. With the availability of MDC components, believing they could miniaturize it to that extent is far from what should be considered a huge leap of faith. I'd even go as far as to say that it is far, far more plausible than most of the technology that people seem to accept more readily.

If multiplying the energy of an arrow by 100 is sufficient to make it do MD, then a .50 round has the energy to one-shot a glitterboy.

--flatline

[say652]

off topic but are not all the world books fairly eqal in power. in russia like everybody has autododge,in japan those unique styles are very powerful(akido,ninjutsu,etc)

[Forar]

Just because there is disparity between the world books doesn't mean it's impossible to note significant disparity above and beyond the average range.

If most things in most books started around 1*, and later books kicked that up to 1.5-2.5*, the book at 7* still stands out.

Not that I necessarily think SA1/2 are actually 3+ times the power of the others, just wanted to make my point with math. Even with a range rather than a constant as your target numbers, you can still have outliers.

[cornholioprime]

Just because there is disparity between the world books doesn't mean it's impossible to note significant disparity above and beyond the average range.

If most things in most books started around 1*, and later books kicked that up to 1.5-2.5*, the book at 7* still stands out.

Not that I necessarily think SA1/2 are actually 3+ times the power of the others, just wanted to make my point with math. Even with a range rather than a constant as your target numbers, you can still have outliers.

Back in the day, the Weapons and OCCs and RCCs of the SA and SA-two books were significantly more powerful than were most of the rest of Rifts Earth. Things are better today between all the Books, but it seemed to be a pretty outstanding discrepancy back then.

And somebody can correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly, but wasn't that even after Kevin said something about editorially taking them down a notch before letting them be printed?
(I seem to remember him saying something to that effect in one of the FAQs or in the foreword to one of those two books or a Rifter or something.)

[Killer Cyborg]

Just because there is disparity between the world books doesn't mean it's impossible to note significant disparity above and beyond the average range.

If most things in most books started around 1*, and later books kicked that up to 1.5-2.5*, the book at 7* still stands out.

Not that I necessarily think SA1/2 are actually 3+ times the power of the others, just wanted to make my point with math. Even with a range rather than a constant as your target numbers, you can still have outliers.

Back in the day, the Weapons and OCCs and RCCs of the SA and SA-two books were significantly more powerful than were most of the rest of Rifts Earth. Things are better today between all the Books, but it seemed to be a pretty outstanding discrepancy back then.

It was.

And somebody can correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly, but wasn't that even after Kevin said something about editorially taking them down a notch before letting them be printed?
(I seem to remember him saying something to that effect in one of the FAQs or in the foreword to one of those two books or a Rifter or something.)

RGMG.

[say652]

Sea-titan, Earthchild, Sunaj assassin, Super Spy, Gunslinger.just a random list of hyper powerful classes from other rifts earth world books. South America is a great set of books also they deal with stuff vastly more powerful than north america. Arkhons have a base and frequently raid other places, Larhold tribes raid the plains, not to mention the columbian vampire wars. The are stronger mainly because they have to be.

[Forar]

Sea-titan, Earthchild, Sunaj assassin, Super Spy, Gunslinger.just a random list of hyper powerful classes from other rifts earth world books.

No one has said that other books don't contain powerful classes. What has been noted is that the two SA books (2 in particular, if I'm not mistaken) contain more than their fair share of powerful gear/classes/abilities.

South America is a great set of books also they deal with stuff vastly more powerful than north america. Arkhons have a base and frequently raid other places, Larhold tribes raid the plains, not to mention the columbian vampire wars. The are stronger mainly because they have to be.

I don't believe anyone has said that having proportionately higher amounts of powerful stuff makes them bad either. And being internally consistent in the 'fluff/setting' doesn't preclude things from being disproportionately powerful in terms of game mechanics.

I mean, I don't know if you guys have played Nightbane, but my experience with CJC's works was "this guy likes taking the established baseline and adding 20 percent. As a starter."

To offset this comment; that doesn't make him a bad author either.

Wouldn't want any straw-persons injured in the making of any counterpoints.

[cyberdon]

I think I'd rule that an e-clip is required for MD shots, but I have no problem with the arm pull powering a 1d6SDC laser suitable for hunting small game or harassing an unarmored opponent.

--flatline

Yeah, I like that.

[say652]

yup because you can tear a suit of body armor inhalf doesn't help if you need to disarm a bomb or pilot a plane full of survivors off of zombie island.
i like being the tank of the team,its an easy spot to slide in and doesn't require much skill. the thinker(scholar/scientist) is very important because of his/her valuable skill set. the pilot is important because they drive stuff. and how could we forget the soldier, his skills make him a neccesity on any team. so by rifts classes a borg, a rogue scholar,and operator and a military specialist. add in a wildcard dogboy maybe and you have a varied team off varying power levels adventuring together. now lets kick it up a notch. a cosmoknight,a rouge scholar,a machineperson,a special forces soldier and a neo-human. same team just as effective just different versions of the classes that fall into the same rolls.

[Zamion138]

yup because you can tear a suit of body armor inhalf doesn't help if you need to disarm a bomb or pilot a plane full of survivors off of zombie island.
i like being the tank of the team,its an easy spot to slide in and doesn't require much skill. the thinker(scholar/scientist) is very important because of his/her valuable skill set. the pilot is important because they drive stuff. and how could we forget the soldier, his skills make him a neccesity on any team. so by rifts classes a borg, a rogue scholar,and operator and a military specialist. add in a wildcard dogboy maybe and you have a varied team off varying power levels adventuring together. now lets kick it up a notch. a cosmoknight,a rouge scholar,a machineperson,a special forces soldier and a neo-human. same team just as effective just different versions of the classes that fall into the same rolls.

But they are not even close to the same team, your machine person doesnt understand the plight of human morality and society.
The cosmo knight has ftl flight and drops as much damage as a rifts tank, and takes as much pain.
The neo human is arguably the most powerfull psi char in all of rifts. (Crystal dragon might be more).
And then youll probaly have two mortal sdc skill and gear based chars. To challenge the cosmo knight and neo human you need to bring to bear some pretty big guns. So your special forces guy and scientist can basicly hide in combat or go splat.
As a gm playing an enemy force logicly, they wouldnt shoot into the cosmo knight first but the weakest up. Once they notice their laser rifles are next to useless against the flying death machine and the ultra hot humanish thing tossing mountain tops around with her mind. Or the cruel demon decides this is a loosing battle and slays the two humans before porting out back to hades.

Is it possibly to basicly run two fights at once as a gm where the lesser team is say comming up through the sewers as the heavy hitters take the front gate as a distraction or what not? Sure. But as a gm i shouldnt have to come up with twice the battles twice the villians and twice the reasonable point of making it epic enough that the galatic forge sends its knight erend in and not kill the scientist that knows how to use a laser gun and wear some armor.
Its two to three times the work for the guy that doesnt get to relax and runn his char for a few hours a week. The gm has to write the plot and play everyone in the world plus a crap load more. If its your game and you think you can run a ultra high and low power game well. Sweet deal but if your a player and your gm is like "i dont want to deal with all that man" you gotta respect that. They are the hardest working guy at the table.

[Nightmask]

yup because you can tear a suit of body armor inhalf doesn't help if you need to disarm a bomb or pilot a plane full of survivors off of zombie island.
i like being the tank of the team,its an easy spot to slide in and doesn't require much skill. the thinker(scholar/scientist) is very important because of his/her valuable skill set. the pilot is important because they drive stuff. and how could we forget the soldier, his skills make him a neccesity on any team. so by rifts classes a borg, a rogue scholar,and operator and a military specialist. add in a wildcard dogboy maybe and you have a varied team off varying power levels adventuring together. now lets kick it up a notch. a cosmoknight,a rouge scholar,a machineperson,a special forces soldier and a neo-human. same team just as effective just different versions of the classes that fall into the same rolls.

But they are not even close to the same team, your machine person doesnt understand the plight of human morality and society.

Being of different relative power levels does not mean they aren't on the same team, and Machine People understand human morality and society just fine (their original rebellion against their creators was a result of refusing to commit genocide because it wasn't the moral thing to do).

The cosmo knight has ftl flight and drops as much damage as a rifts tank, and takes as much pain.
The neo human is arguably the most powerfull psi char in all of rifts. (Crystal dragon might be more).
And then youll probaly have two mortal sdc skill and gear based chars. To challenge the cosmo knight and neo human you need to bring to bear some pretty big guns. So your special forces guy and scientist can basicly hide in combat or go splat.
As a gm playing an enemy force logicly, they wouldnt shoot into the cosmo knight first but the weakest up. Once they notice their laser rifles are next to useless against the flying death machine and the ultra hot humanish thing tossing mountain tops around with her mind. Or the cruel demon decides this is a loosing battle and slays the two humans before porting out back to hades.

That's not logical, logically you take out the most obviously powerful and destructive targets first. If a tank and a dozen infantry are coming at you you do what you can to take out the tank not the infantry, not unless the infantry are demonstrably more powerful (and then why is there even a tank there?).

[wyrmraker]

To be entirely honest, at the time of SA2's publication (not SA1, it was okay) a great deal of the technology in it was measurably more powerful than anything in the other books. Suddenly GMs had to deal with a lot of people wanting this brand-new gear from a place that their characters had to business getting gear from. And to top it all off, once they said no the players would cry and whine and kvetch for days.

So GMs starting not allowing stuff from SA2. Eventually the complaints filtered up to Simbieda, and he recommended cutting the power level a bit, which prompted even *more* crying, whining, and kvetching, until the GMs simply outlawed that material just so they didn't have to deal with it anymore.

In my opinion, it's less a matter of that setting being overpowered, and more of a matter of GMs looking at players and saying, "C'mon guys, seriously?"

[Killer Cyborg]

To be entirely honest, at the time of SA2's publication (not SA1, it was okay) a great deal of the technology in it was measurably more powerful than anything in the other books. Suddenly GMs had to deal with a lot of people wanting this brand-new gear from a place that their characters had to business getting gear from. And to top it all off, once they said no the players would cry and whine and kvetch for days.

Right.
And that last part is something that people want to ignore.
They say, "Well, if you don't like it, don't allow it in your games," as if that solves everything.
But it doesn't solve everything, because there are always players that feel like they should be allowed to have anything that's officially in print, and they (as you say) cry, whine, and kvetch for days.
And wheedle. And plead.
And it's not just for days in come cases.

[Killer Cyborg]

Note to all...

I appreciate your response in this thread, but so far I have yet to hear any kind of solid argument why SA2 is "overpowered".

I am not seeing it.

Well, I broke down how it was overpowered.
Whether or not it still IS depends on what you compare it to.
And what you think that "overpowered" entails.

[Killer Cyborg]

Why shouldn't South America have the level of power they have?

That's the wrong question.
The question is, "Why SHOULD South America have that level of power?"
Because there isn't really anything in the setting material to justify most of it.
The high power of the region seems to be based primarily (perhaps entirely) on the author's desire to make kewl and powerful stuff, not on any kind of in-game logic or rationale.
It's not like CJ seriously thought (unless he's deranged) that the most likely scenario was that aliens near the Amazon would logically and predictably create a tribe of female super-humans that were hundreds of times more powerful than normal humans.
He just thought it'd be cool.
It's not like CJ figured, "Well, since Lonestar has mutant animals with minor psychic powers, then Argentina, with it's well-known top-notch experiments in mutant animals, would logically have insanely MORE powerful mutant animals that effectively have super powers!"
He just thought that it'd be cool.
And so on, right down the line, with few exceptions.

And the thing is, "because it'd be cool!" simply isn't good justification for anything, not all by itself.
It's the kind of thing that leads to people outrunning explosions on foot in movies.
It's the kind of thing that leads to the bus jump in Speed.
It's simply bad writing.

[wyrmraker]

Why shouldn't South America have the level of power they have?

That's the wrong question.
The question is, "Why SHOULD South America have that level of power?"
Because there isn't really anything in the setting material to justify most of it.
The high power of the region seems to be based primarily (perhaps entirely) on the author's desire to make kewl and powerful stuff, not on any kind of in-game logic or rationale.
It's not like CJ seriously thought (unless he's deranged) that the most likely scenario was that aliens near the Amazon would logically and predictably create a tribe of female super-humans that were hundreds of times more powerful than normal humans.
He just thought it'd be cool.
It's not like CJ figured, "Well, since Lonestar has mutant animals with minor psychic powers, then Argentina, with it's well-known top-notch experiments in mutant animals, would logically have insanely MORE powerful mutant animals that effectively have super powers!"
He just thought that it'd be cool.
And so on, right down the line, with few exceptions.

And the thing is, "because it'd be cool!" simply isn't good justification for anything, not all by itself.
It's the kind of thing that leads to people outrunning explosions on foot in movies.
It's the kind of thing that leads to the bus jump in Speed.
It's simply bad writing.

I hate to disagree with you, but "Because it's cool!" seems to be an ongoing impetus for the Rifts books. Flying Glitter Boy? Because it's cool! Fat Glitter Boy? Because it's cool! Skull helmets and nazi themes for a major world power? Because it's cool! Splynncryth not outright owning Rifts Earth because of 'politics'? Because it's NOT cool! Martial arts kicks that do as much damage as a particle beam pistol? Because it's cool! Gene Splicers just off the NGR border? Because it's cool!

SA2 is right in line with the "Because it's cool!" department of writers, which is to say most of them.

[Zamion138]

yup because you can tear a suit of body armor inhalf doesn't help if you need to disarm a bomb or pilot a plane full of survivors off of zombie island.
i like being the tank of the team,its an easy spot to slide in and doesn't require much skill. the thinker(scholar/scientist) is very important because of his/her valuable skill set. the pilot is important because they drive stuff. and how could we forget the soldier, his skills make him a neccesity on any team. so by rifts classes a borg, a rogue scholar,and operator and a military specialist. add in a wildcard dogboy maybe and you have a varied team off varying power levels adventuring together. now lets kick it up a notch. a cosmoknight,a rouge scholar,a machineperson,a special forces soldier and a neo-human. same team just as effective just different versions of the classes that fall into the same rolls.

But they are not even close to the same team, your machine person doesnt understand the plight of human morality and society.

Being of different relative power levels does not mean they aren't on the same team, and Machine People understand human morality and society just fine (their original rebellion against their creators was a result of refusing to commit genocide because it wasn't the moral thing to do).

I ment they are not the same team as the earlier described one, not that they are not on the same team. Sorry if that came out confusing.

The cosmo knight has ftl flight and drops as much damage as a rifts tank, and takes as much pain.
The neo human is arguably the most powerfull psi char in all of rifts. (Crystal dragon might be more).
And then youll probaly have two mortal sdc skill and gear based chars. To challenge the cosmo knight and neo human you need to bring to bear some pretty big guns. So your special forces guy and scientist can basicly hide in combat or go splat.
As a gm playing an enemy force logicly, they wouldnt shoot into the cosmo knight first but the weakest up. Once they notice their laser rifles are next to useless against the flying death machine and the ultra hot humanish thing tossing mountain tops around with her mind. Or the cruel demon decides this is a loosing battle and slays the two humans before porting out back to hades.

That's not logical, logically you take out the most obviously powerful and destructive targets first. If a tank and a dozen infantry are coming at you you do what you can to take out the tank not the infantry, not unless the infantry are demonstrably more powerful (and then why is there even a tank there?).[/quote]

Think about it this way in a video game or as PC's if their are 6 minnions and the boss, do you attack the boss first and lets all 6 of the lesser guys just keep plinking at you (in the case of a video game healing the big guy), sure the main dude hits like a truck but being shot by a bunch of things means you can concentrate and you never know when one of them has a scroll of magic carpet or something to unleash on you.

Its more work than I need as a GM to have to make divergent power levels in a game , if the players are in the same relm of power as each other then I can concentrate on the story and setting. Yes its doable otherwise, But so is winning a marathon or one of thoose iron man competitions and id reather go for a jog with a sprint hear and there.

[Killer Cyborg]

And the thing is, "because it'd be cool!" simply isn't good justification for anything, not all by itself.
It's the kind of thing that leads to people outrunning explosions on foot in movies.
It's the kind of thing that leads to the bus jump in Speed.
It's simply bad writing.

I hate to disagree with you, but "Because it's cool!" seems to be an ongoing impetus for the Rifts books. Flying Glitter Boy? Because it's cool! Fat Glitter Boy? Because it's cool!

If you don't think that's bad writing, then yeah... we disagree.

Skull helmets and nazi themes for a major world power? Because it's cool!

Actually, THAT makes some amount of sense.

Splynncryth not outright owning Rifts Earth because of 'politics'?

Likewise.

Martial arts kicks that do as much damage as a particle beam pistol? Because it's cool!

Again, if you think that's GOOD writing, then we're not going to agree on this subject.

Gene Splicers just off the NGR border? Because it's cool!

I'm thinking that you and I have different definitions of "cool."

SA2 is right in line with the "Because it's cool!" department of writers, which is to say most of them.

Which is unfortunate, and which is probably why there are so many mediocre-to-poor Rifts books in print.
While there was some amount of that kind of thing before South America (England, for example), South America took it even further, and paved the way for further shoddily-written books.

[Killer Cyborg]

I hate to disagree with you, but "Because it's cool!" seems to be an ongoing impetus for the Rifts books.

It absolutely is. That, however, doesn't make it a good design philosophy.

I am all for because it's cool as a design goal, but when that single goal trumps everything else, things get weird.

Agreed.

[wyrmraker]

I hate to disagree with you, but "Because it's cool!" seems to be an ongoing impetus for the Rifts books.

It absolutely is. That, however, doesn't make it a good design philosophy.

I am all for because it's cool as a design goal, but when that single goal trumps everything else, things get weird.

Agreed.

Truer words were never spoken.

[Giant2005]

I never realized people had such a passionate hate for everything cool.
I feel the opposite and until now, I had never felt like an outsider for it. Forgive me for wanting for my books to have cool things in them... I usually find books that lack anything cool aren't worth reading. I guess I am just a sucker for un-punishment.

[wyrmraker]

I never realized people had such a passionate hate for everything cool.
I feel the opposite and until now, I had never felt like an outsider for it. Forgive me for wanting for my books to have cool things in them... I usually find books that lack anything cool aren't worth reading. I guess I am just a sucker for un-punishment.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against stuff being cool. Cool is what drives a lot of creativity. I just want things to make sense. I don't think I'm wrong to want a little internal consistency in my Official Metaplot and in-game physics.

[kaid]

Yes they're both quite nice, and I love the Biomancer (book 1 ) and Gizmoteer (book 2 ), although I tend to ignore the 'must act like a nutty Vegan' nonsense for the Biomancer.

I think that is their most interesting part. Take that away and they might as well be Druids.

If you like the biomancer the lemurian book fleshes them out some more and while most are vegan not all are. That said with their empathy if you actually feel an animals pain as your own you probably are more likely to be a vegatarian.

Some of the stuff in SA2 was a bit on the strong side but I never thought it was that big of a deal. Armor/weapons in rifts are consumable items. Combat attrition wrecks them all soon enough and if somebody is shooting some big scary gun best bet people are going to aim at it. The line maker stuff I did not find to out of wack power wise sure some of the epic ones are impressive but these are not something a single player is going to just be whipping out. You are either doing it at a set location in a giant ritual with a lot of other people helping or you are spending a great deal of time preparing the line drawing. Even the lower level stuff they have is overall pretty time intensive some can be pre drawn on armor/blankets what not but most takes time to make the line great if you have time to setup but not with definite weaknesses to make up for it.

Compared to old RMB it was pretty high on the strength as of 109PA with the CS war stuff and triax 2 I would say it maybe is 10% stronger those baselines which is to me not unreasonable at all.

[Nightmask]

That's not logical, logically you take out the most obviously powerful and destructive targets first. If a tank and a dozen infantry are coming at you you do what you can to take out the tank not the infantry, not unless the infantry are demonstrably more powerful (and then why is there even a tank there?).

Think about it this way in a video game or as PC's if their are 6 minnions and the boss, do you attack the boss first and lets all 6 of the lesser guys just keep plinking at you (in the case of a video game healing the big guy), sure the main dude hits like a truck but being shot by a bunch of things means you can concentrate and you never know when one of them has a scroll of magic carpet or something to unleash on you.

Its more work than I need as a GM to have to make divergent power levels in a game , if the players are in the same relm of power as each other then I can concentrate on the story and setting. Yes its doable otherwise, But so is winning a marathon or one of thoose iron man competitions and id reather go for a jog with a sprint hear and there.

Funny you'd say that, since I do ignore the minions generally when fighting those bosses, as the bosses are dealing way more damage and have special features that can take me out a lot easier than the minions can. I'll go for the guy that can pretty much one-hit me to get rid of him long before I worry about the ones that might whittle me away especially if I have means of healing to correct for the damage they cause in the meantime.

[Killer Cyborg]

I never realized people had such a passionate hate for everything cool.
I feel the opposite and until now, I had never felt like an outsider for it. Forgive me for wanting for my books to have cool things in them... I usually find books that lack anything cool aren't worth reading. I guess I am just a sucker for un-punishment.

I think you've missed the point.

[Nightmask]

Funny you'd say that, since I do ignore the minions generally when fighting those bosses, as the bosses are dealing way more damage and have special features that can take me out a lot easier than the minions can. I'll go for the guy that can pretty much one-hit me to get rid of him long before I worry about the ones that might whittle me away especially if I have means of healing to correct for the damage they cause in the meantime.

Real-time or turn-based video game combats? Scaled or status quo combats?

In a turn-based system, you are better off eliminating the minions first as those minions have a greater chance of pulling a fast one the longer you let them sit, even if it's a sacrificial fast one; taking away actions--even minor, stupid actions--from Team Evil is a good deal when the cost isn't prohibitive (e.g. the baddie has a 1-shot-kill attack or something).

In a status quo game, you absolutely take out the minions first as a weapon in their hands kills you as fast as a weapon in anyone else's hands.

Rifts is a turn-based, status quo game. Video games, many times, are neither.

Turn based, scaled combat (currently the Marvel: Avengers Alliance game for FB). However troublesome a minion might be the bosses are far far worse.

[wyrmraker]

I never realized people had such a passionate hate for everything cool.

Honestly, I don't think anyone here "hates" things that are cool; I think we all just have different conceptions of the world. Some like it one way, others like it a different way.

As I stated previously, cool is a major driving force with RPG writing. I personally don't have any problems with SA2 as it is. I DO have a problem with all the whining and kvetching that tends to come with it from munchkins.

[Forar]

I never realized people had such a passionate hate for everything cool.
I feel the opposite and until now, I had never felt like an outsider for it. Forgive me for wanting for my books to have cool things in them... I usually find books that lack anything cool aren't worth reading. I guess I am just a sucker for un-punishment.

A thought; not everyone has the same definition of "cool".

Some people might have a "passionate hate for everything that Giant2005 finds cool", but I suspect that's mainly a coincidence. A difference of opinion. Which is what "cool" is; subjective, opinion, going to differ between any two people, let alone the hundreds (thousands?) on the forums and tens or hundreds of thousands of people who played/play/will play Rifts.

[Killer Cyborg]

Why shouldn't South America have the level of power they have?

That's the wrong question.
The question is, "Why SHOULD South America have that level of power?"

I hate to beg the question, but I must ask: why should or shouldn't anybody have a certain level of power? -- It seems very abritrary to suggest that there is some 'moral law' that states that all entities must operate on equal power.

The Dominators, for example, are vastly more powerful that pretty much anybody in the 3G, but they don't unballance the game (unless the GM lets them).

I have no problems with the Dominators; this isn't about that kind of balance.
It's about what makes sense, and what doesn't make sense.

Take the Arkhon.
They're aliens, world-beaters from another dimension. It's perfectly sensible that they'd be more powerful than the average for North America.
Now take the MDC Amazons. What the HELL is that about?!
It's part pun, part fetish, with only the slightest dash of ex post facto rationale.
That's giving in-game power, without any real in-game reason.

For that matte, why does the Colombian army have weapons that, on average, do better damage than the most powerful, highest tech army in North America?
Because there's a good, in-game explanation as to how the old American Empire had fallen on hard times, and no longer represented the height of technology?
No.
Because there's a good, in-game explanation for why Colombia was a high-tech whirlwind of innovation, with a specialty in rockets?
No.
Because the author thought that rocket guns were cool, and that they should do really badass* damage?
Bingo.

I don't care if you want to have a party of standard PCs go up against Dominators, whether they die or whether they win.
I don't care if you want to have a party of PCs where one is a Dominator, complete with space ship, and another is an old-school vagabond with no Mega-Damage armor or weapons.
What I do care about is when the books write stuff that just doesn't fit the setting, when what should be a minor power is suddenly a major power, for no other reason than the writer wanted to get off on how cool his own writing was.
Because that's not actually cool; that's just bad writing.


*"Badass" defined as "more powerful than whatever came before, regardless of logic and reason."

Because there isn't really anything in the setting material to justify most of it.

But why should it be justified?

Because effect without cause is nonsense. It's gibberish. It's baby-talk.
And when I'm investing my time in a story, and it devolves into gibberish, that interferes with my suspension of disbelief.
And suspension of disbelief is key to storytelling.

The high power of the region seems to be based primarily (perhaps entirely) on the author's desire to make kewl and powerful stuff, not on any kind of in-game logic or rationale.
It's not like CJ seriously thought (unless he's deranged) that the most likely scenario was that aliens near the Amazon would logically and predictably create a tribe of female super-humans that were hundreds of times more powerful than normal humans.
He just thought it'd be cool.

That sounds good enough to me, personally.

Why?

And the thing is, "because it'd be cool!" simply isn't good justification for anything, not all by itself.

Hmm.. Well, we'll probably have to disagree on this point. I think that "it's sounds cool" is pretty much what all RPGs are about.

Yeah, we'll NEVER, EVER agree about that.
For me, it's all playing games of "What If."
You propose a scenario, then play out the possible ways it might unfold.
You don't just recite one of Napoleon Dynamite's daydreams.

It's the kind of thing that leads to people outrunning explosions on foot in movies.
It's the kind of thing that leads to the bus jump in Speed.
It's simply bad writing.

LOL - I agree about outrunning explosions and the bus jump in speed. Those are very silly and ridiculous things.

And YET, I don't think that that rule of thumb neccessarily applies to RPGs.

Why not?
Why is role-playing the bus jump in Speed any less absurd than seeing it in a movie?

[Killer Cyborg]

That's not logical, logically you take out the most obviously powerful and destructive targets first. If a tank and a dozen infantry are coming at you you do what you can to take out the tank not the infantry, not unless the infantry are demonstrably more powerful (and then why is there even a tank there?).

Think about it this way in a video game or as PC's if their are 6 minnions and the boss, do you attack the boss first and lets all 6 of the lesser guys just keep plinking at you (in the case of a video game healing the big guy), sure the main dude hits like a truck but being shot by a bunch of things means you can concentrate and you never know when one of them has a scroll of magic carpet or something to unleash on you.

Its more work than I need as a GM to have to make divergent power levels in a game , if the players are in the same relm of power as each other then I can concentrate on the story and setting. Yes its doable otherwise, But so is winning a marathon or one of thoose iron man competitions and id reather go for a jog with a sprint hear and there.

Funny you'd say that, since I do ignore the minions generally when fighting those bosses, as the bosses are dealing way more damage and have special features that can take me out a lot easier than the minions can. I'll go for the guy that can pretty much one-hit me to get rid of him long before I worry about the ones that might whittle me away especially if I have means of healing to correct for the damage they cause in the meantime.

There are two different strategies to deal with that kind of scenario.
If you focus on the Boss, then the minions might well kill you. This is because every time you attack the boss, it gets damaged, but that doesn't impair the boss's ability to deal out damage. So if you focus on the boss, you're taking damage from every enemy, every round, until you take down that boss. And that accumulated damage might well be enough to kill you.
Conversely, if you pick off the minions, every attack you make may well drop an enemy, reducing the total damage you take each round by some degree. Which means that every attack you make actually provides for your defense. The problem is, when you're done with the minions, you'll still have a full-powered boss to fight, and you'll be weakened.

I've seen both strategies work, and both strategies fail.
Both are viable, depending on the circumstances involved.

[Nightmask]

Why shouldn't South America have the level of power they have?

That's the wrong question.
The question is, "Why SHOULD South America have that level of power?"

I hate to beg the question, but I must ask: why should or shouldn't anybody have a certain level of power? -- It seems very abritrary to suggest that there is some 'moral law' that states that all entities must operate on equal power.

The Dominators, for example, are vastly more powerful that pretty much anybody in the 3G, but they don't unballance the game (unless the GM lets them).

I have no problems with the Dominators; this isn't about that kind of balance.
It's about what makes sense, and what doesn't make sense.

Take the Arkhon.
They're aliens, world-beaters from another dimension. It's perfectly sensible that they'd be more powerful than the average for North America.

Just a minor clarification, the Arkhons aren't extra-dimensional they're from the same universe (and I believe Galaxy) as Rifts Earth.

[Killer Cyborg]

Why shouldn't South America have the level of power they have?

That's the wrong question.
The question is, "Why SHOULD South America have that level of power?"

I hate to beg the question, but I must ask: why should or shouldn't anybody have a certain level of power? -- It seems very abritrary to suggest that there is some 'moral law' that states that all entities must operate on equal power.

The Dominators, for example, are vastly more powerful that pretty much anybody in the 3G, but they don't unballance the game (unless the GM lets them).

I have no problems with the Dominators; this isn't about that kind of balance.
It's about what makes sense, and what doesn't make sense.

Take the Arkhon.
They're aliens, world-beaters from another dimension. It's perfectly sensible that they'd be more powerful than the average for North America.

Just a minor clarification, the Arkhons aren't extra-dimensional they're from the same universe (and I believe Galaxy) as Rifts Earth.

My bad.

[Nightmask]

I can btw see the argument that the Amazons don't make a great deal of sense (not that I bothered thinking about it, there are a lot more creatures that make far less sense around). I have more issue with how the Megaversal Legion is written up, we don't really see their best stuff, to have held off Mechanoids and proven so astoundingly successful and seeing the hints of how powerful their mysterious enslavers best technology is.

[Zamion138]

That's not logical, logically you take out the most obviously powerful and destructive targets first. If a tank and a dozen infantry are coming at you you do what you can to take out the tank not the infantry, not unless the infantry are demonstrably more powerful (and then why is there even a tank there?).

Think about it this way in a video game or as PC's if their are 6 minnions and the boss, do you attack the boss first and lets all 6 of the lesser guys just keep plinking at you (in the case of a video game healing the big guy), sure the main dude hits like a truck but being shot by a bunch of things means you can concentrate and you never know when one of them has a scroll of magic carpet or something to unleash on you.

Its more work than I need as a GM to have to make divergent power levels in a game , if the players are in the same relm of power as each other then I can concentrate on the story and setting. Yes its doable otherwise, But so is winning a marathon or one of thoose iron man competitions and id reather go for a jog with a sprint hear and there.

Funny you'd say that, since I do ignore the minions generally when fighting those bosses, as the bosses are dealing way more damage and have special features that can take me out a lot easier than the minions can. I'll go for the guy that can pretty much one-hit me to get rid of him long before I worry about the ones that might whittle me away especially if I have means of healing to correct for the damage they cause in the meantime.

There are two different strategies to deal with that kind of scenario.
If you focus on the Boss, then the minions might well kill you. This is because every time you attack the boss, it gets damaged, but that doesn't impair the boss's ability to deal out damage. So if you focus on the boss, you're taking damage from every enemy, every round, until you take down that boss. And that accumulated damage might well be enough to kill you.
Conversely, if you pick off the minions, every attack you make may well drop an enemy, reducing the total damage you take each round by some degree. Which means that every attack you make actually provides for your defense. The problem is, when you're done with the minions, you'll still have a full-powered boss to fight, and you'll be weakened.

I've seen both strategies work, and both strategies fail.
Both are viable, depending on the circumstances involved.

Yeah and then you cast curega and use a phoenix down on loki whos been using steal on the boss the whole so you deal all the damage now....wait

[Giant2005]

For that matte, why does the Colombian army have weapons that, on average, do better damage than the most powerful, highest tech army in North America?
Because there's a good, in-game explanation as to how the old American Empire had fallen on hard times, and no longer represented the height of technology?
No.
Because there's a good, in-game explanation for why Colombia was a high-tech whirlwind of innovation, with a specialty in rockets?
No.
Because the author thought that rocket guns were cool, and that they should do really badass* damage?
Bingo.

You can't say the Arkhons which exist in South America have a valid reason for being powerful in one setence, and then say that other South American nations don't have a reason in the next.
If those rival nations continue to exist at all, they need powerful technology.
That is exactly how the world works - every war inspires technological advancement far superior to that of peaceful times. Every war is an arms race.
Think back to the technological advancements of World War 2, would anyone expect there to have been as many advancements made if that was a war between the world vs Ethiopia?
Continued existence with hostile alien invaders with justifiably powerful technology is impossible unless you find the means to be their match.
Compare that to North America in which the Coalition are the aggressors, they are the most powerful nation on the block and have far less need to expand their technology. It is far less believable for them to have superior technology in the relatively safe location of North America, than it is for their South American counterparts in the far more dangerous South America.

[Nightmask]

For that matte, why does the Colombian army have weapons that, on average, do better damage than the most powerful, highest tech army in North America?
Because there's a good, in-game explanation as to how the old American Empire had fallen on hard times, and no longer represented the height of technology?
No.
Because there's a good, in-game explanation for why Colombia was a high-tech whirlwind of innovation, with a specialty in rockets?
No.
Because the author thought that rocket guns were cool, and that they should do really badass* damage?
Bingo.

You can't say the Arkhons which exist in South America have a valid reason for being powerful in one setence, and then say that other South American nations don't have a reason in the next.
If those rival nations continue to exist at all, they need powerful technology.
That is exactly how the world works - every war inspires technological advancement far superior to that of peaceful times. Every war is an arms race.
Think back to the technological advancements of World War 2, would anyone expect there to have been as many advancements made if that was a war between the world vs Ethiopia?
Continued existence with hostile alien invaders with justifiably powerful technology is impossible unless you find the means to be their match.
Compare that to North America in which the Coalition are the aggressors, they are the most powerful nation on the block and have far less need to expand their technology. It is far less believable for them to have superior technology in the relatively safe location of North America, than it is for their South American counterparts in the far more dangerous South America.

You've some flaws in your reasoning though. One that somehow weapons technology must rapidly rise up when you have an aggressive enemy with vastly superior weapons. Sometimes you just use numbers and 'good enough' to hold your ground. Plus the nation most bothered by the Arkhons is one filled with demi-gods and other powerful magical sorts, making for a means of equalizing things without having to have superior or comparable weapons technology.

There's also the fact that the Arkhons are not in a very good spot geographically, have limited means of producing their own weapons (to the point of working at incorporating local weapons technology to make up the lack), and one should remember are the losers of their own people when it came to fighting to be top dog which is why they ran to Earth in the first place. Better tech in some ways maybe but clearly not anywhere near as good at planning things which is needed to get the best use of the tech they have.

[Killer Cyborg]

For that matte, why does the Colombian army have weapons that, on average, do better damage than the most powerful, highest tech army in North America?
Because there's a good, in-game explanation as to how the old American Empire had fallen on hard times, and no longer represented the height of technology?
No.
Because there's a good, in-game explanation for why Colombia was a high-tech whirlwind of innovation, with a specialty in rockets?
No.
Because the author thought that rocket guns were cool, and that they should do really badass* damage?
Bingo.

You can't say the Arkhons which exist in South America have a valid reason for being powerful in one setence, and then say that other South American nations don't have a reason in the next.
If those rival nations continue to exist at all, they need powerful technology.

The whole "If those rival nations continue to exist" part is NOT any kind of in-game logic.
That's meta-game logic.
In-Game logic would be "Those nations are subjugated or destroyed, because they lack the technology to fight back."

That is exactly how the world works - every war inspires technological advancement far superior to that of peaceful times. Every war is an arms race.

Granted. This is how Tibet managed to fight off the Chinese, repelling the invasion with newly invented weapons that were equal or superior to what the invaders had.
Likewise, it's the very reason why the Zulus are a powerful empire today, instead of having been subjugated by the British. Shaka's brilliant new weapons made his warriors the match for British troops, and managed to fight them off.
Not to mention the Native Americans being able to fend off the Conquistadors and pilgrims, innovating new technologies in the famous New World Arms Race that prevented America from being colonized by the British, and ultimately even prevented me from writing this post.

[Giant2005]

For that matte, why does the Colombian army have weapons that, on average, do better damage than the most powerful, highest tech army in North America?
Because there's a good, in-game explanation as to how the old American Empire had fallen on hard times, and no longer represented the height of technology?
No.
Because there's a good, in-game explanation for why Colombia was a high-tech whirlwind of innovation, with a specialty in rockets?
No.
Because the author thought that rocket guns were cool, and that they should do really badass* damage?
Bingo.

You can't say the Arkhons which exist in South America have a valid reason for being powerful in one setence, and then say that other South American nations don't have a reason in the next.
If those rival nations continue to exist at all, they need powerful technology.

The whole "If those rival nations continue to exist" part is NOT any kind of in-game logic.
That's meta-game logic.
In-Game logic would be "Those nations are subjugated or destroyed, because they lack the technology to fight back."

That is exactly how the world works - every war inspires technological advancement far superior to that of peaceful times. Every war is an arms race.

Granted. This is how Tibet managed to fight off the Chinese, repelling the invasion with newly invented weapons that were equal or superior to what the invaders had.
Likewise, it's the very reason why the Zulus are a powerful empire today, instead of having been subjugated by the British. Shaka's brilliant new weapons made his warriors the match for British troops, and managed to fight them off.
Not to mention the Native Americans being able to fend off the Conquistadors and pilgrims, innovating new technologies in the famous New World Arms Race that prevented America from being colonized by the British, and ultimately even prevented me from writing this post.

It is true that if they don't invent the means to defend themselves adequately, they will be wiped out. No-one would dispute that.
I just don't think many would share your opinion that South America being little more than a desolate wasteland of past battles and extinct nations would make for a better gaming experience than what we have.
The book is better because it has living things in it to interact with. If we want living things to interact with, they need sufficiently advanced technology to be able to survive the advanced aggressors in that environment, otherwise the whole thing becomes too unrealistic.

[Killer Cyborg]

A load of crap is never a better gaming experience than a wasteland.
Hence the popularity of the old computer RPG "Wasteland," and the failure of the old computer RPG "Crap Pile."

Although I never proposed that those were the only two options available, so it's something of a false dilemma.

[Marrowlight]

KC, I'm curious. I mean, obviously, Palladium is probably never going to go back and re-edit SA2 or any of the other books that contain material that makes you twitch. So I doubt you're taking this stance because you are thinking they'll see it and will do so.

Are you hammering down on it because it doesn't make in-game sense, and the fact that it exists as published material pollutes/distorts/whatever's future products by using it as some baseline and comparison...or because you play the game strictly by the book and as such can't bring yourself to use this stuff...or what?

I know I'm an aberration from the norm because I tweak, change, or flat out replace just about everything Palladium gives me, and then hodge podge it in with material from other game companies to boot, and as such I almost never get caught up in the details and specifics (which are your home) -- but I can't quite wrap my head around how SA2 being such a wiggy bit of meta-gamed fluff messes up your game n gaming experience. Unless it's just a matter of creating work that you just don't want to (or feel you shouldn't have to) do, to be able to use the stuff.

[Killer Cyborg]

It doesn't directly affect my gaming experience.
But "affects KC's gaming experience" is not a standard that necessarily affects the quality of a product.

Then again, I suppose that it might INdirectly affect my gaming experience, simply by the influence on later books.
If the South America books were written just as they are now, except everything in there was 50% less powerful, would that lower the quality of the books somehow?
I can't see how.
But it MIGHT have established a precedent for new books having more low-powered gear, instead of contributing to power creep, and establishing that as a successful standard.

[Marrowlight]

It doesn't directly affect my gaming experience.
But "affects KC's gaming experience" is not a standard that necessarily affects the quality of a product.

Then again, I suppose that it might INdirectly affect my gaming experience, simply by the influence on later books.
If the South America books were written just as they are now, except everything in there was 50% less powerful, would that lower the quality of the books somehow?
I can't see how.
But it MIGHT have established a precedent for new books having more low-powered gear, instead of contributing to power creep, and establishing that as a successful standard.

Fair enough. I just must have a shorter "This book is ****, and I'm done talking about how it is ****" fuse than you. I figured there must be some other angle going on. Guess not. *nod*

[Marrowlight]

It doesn't directly affect my gaming experience.
But "affects KC's gaming experience" is not a standard that necessarily affects the quality of a product.

Oh, and admit it. You wish it was such a standard.

[Killer Cyborg]

It doesn't directly affect my gaming experience.
But "affects KC's gaming experience" is not a standard that necessarily affects the quality of a product.

Oh, and admit it. You wish it was such a standard.

Ya got me there!

[Killer Cyborg]

It doesn't directly affect my gaming experience.
But "affects KC's gaming experience" is not a standard that necessarily affects the quality of a product.

Then again, I suppose that it might INdirectly affect my gaming experience, simply by the influence on later books.
If the South America books were written just as they are now, except everything in there was 50% less powerful, would that lower the quality of the books somehow?
I can't see how.
But it MIGHT have established a precedent for new books having more low-powered gear, instead of contributing to power creep, and establishing that as a successful standard.

Fair enough. I just must have a shorter "This book is ****, and I'm done talking about how it is ****" fuse than you. I figured there must be some other angle going on. Guess not. *nod*

Well, I'm on my phone right now.
I can try to elaborate at length later, if you like.

[Marrowlight]

Like I could stop you from elaborating.




Go for it.

[flatline]

Ignoring the weapon and armor statistics, are the Amazons the only regional power that are conceptually garbage and can't be salvaged?

For instance, if them being MDC is the biggest canon complaint, that matters little to folks like me who have done away with MDC entirely.

--flatline