"Well, the hoard's worth about 200 million credits..." "WHOOOPEEE!!" "....provided anybody's in the market to buy several tons of melted and irradiated gold and silver, and the last time I checked, chernobylized precious metals were selling for...well, let's say decontamination costs are more than the metal value..." " "
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
The Lair was a converted ICBM "Silo and shelter" that was located away from the ground zero, and most of it was gemstones. I think they netted about 120k after replaceing the ATV and the gear in it, but it took them a while to unload the gems.
rat_bastard wrote:Twenty foot long walking gunbots that do less damage than infantry weapons designed by the same company, more mini missile madness.
I have a bit of the same reaction to the main guns damage on this bot but really after looking at the whole package even if the main gun damage is a bit lower than I would hope for overall its a pretty serious machine. The two main guns doing 1d4x10 combined with two twelve pack mini missile launchers and a grenade launcher with a nice 90 round clip with a variable load capable of doing 3 round bursts with two dedicated gunners while any one of its weapons is not doing huge damage it can really pump out pretty significant amounts of damage fast.
I don't think there is any clean way of doing it at this point but rifles and pulse rifles specifically are simply to damaging. If the rifles had not crept up into the heavy weapon/vehicle level power range the damages you see on most of the newer bots would not raise an eyebrow.
kaid wrote:I don't think there is any clean way of doing it at this point but rifles and pulse rifles specifically are simply to damaging. If the rifles had not crept up into the heavy weapon/vehicle level power range the damages you see on most of the newer bots would not raise an eyebrow.
Which is why I keep giving the company such a hard time when the newer stuff keeps getting nerfed. I mean how many times can a company keep making them same mistakes over and over again.
If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid
Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.
Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.
Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)
Enlightened Grognard
When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.
Well the nerfs you see are typically to lower the damage range and overall most of the recent books have capped damage to just about the old RMB levels for most new stuff but you still get a few of those pulse rifle outliers that throw things off. Really if either pulse rifles were done away with or toned down to a max of 4d6 or 5d6 everything else balances out pretty well. That would mean most of the really big guns/power armor stuff is the only stuff doing 1d4x10 or more which would be fine. It also makes things more survivable for normal grunts.
Really if you keep jacking damage levels up you wind up with runaway mudflation damage numbers amp so armor has to go up and it becomes a never ending escalation and any new book would make old books obsolete. So if what they are doing helps prevent that I can not grumble to much about PA weapons doing the same damage as a 4 pound rifle but in any game I run if you want to do 6d6 damage or more you are looking at plasma cannons or power armor weapons not light rifles.
Sometimes it makes sense to have vehicles have the proper damage values. It's not like we ever received a in game reason for why the weapons values are so low. I guess I can alter the damage values yet would like to see hand weapons also nerfed as well. Do it across the board or not at all imo.
If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid
Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.
Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.
Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)
Enlightened Grognard
When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.
kaid wrote:Well the nerfs you see are typically to lower the damage range and overall most of the recent books have capped damage to just about the old RMB levels for most new stuff but you still get a few of those pulse rifle outliers that throw things off. Really if either pulse rifles were done away with or toned down to a max of 4d6 or 5d6 everything else balances out pretty well. That would mean most of the really big guns/power armor stuff is the only stuff doing 1d4x10 or more which would be fine. It also makes things more survivable for normal grunts.
Really if you keep jacking damage levels up you wind up with runaway mudflation damage numbers amp so armor has to go up and it becomes a never ending escalation and any new book would make old books obsolete. So if what they are doing helps prevent that I can not grumble to much about PA weapons doing the same damage as a 4 pound rifle but in any game I run if you want to do 6d6 damage or more you are looking at plasma cannons or power armor weapons not light rifles.
This I wholeheartedly agree with and I think it is well spoken. I think that some hand held weapons that do exceptional damage sort of slipped through the cracks sort of speak (IMHO), bu what can you do? However, in some cases it also makes for a slight intriguing style of game play dynamics in which a company or player platoon can still be a factor if not utilizing giant robots or mechanized vehicles.
In the end, I think Kaid has summarized it up very well, because once the power creep continues to evolve, then certainly older material and even newer material thereafter will be affected which could lead to being detrimental to the game itself. I have gone over this issue back and forth many times. On one side you have the reality of such advanced technology in a dire harsh and competitive world, where the evolution of weapons and technology is surely going to generate more range, damage, lighter weight, more durability and more efficient with ammo or power sources for weapons. However, on the other hand you have the concern of game balance and preserving the game's longevity and entertainment. If we followed the path of such an aggressive military evolution in such an environment like Rifts:Earth, it wouldn't be that much longer before weapons, could be nearly on a cosmic level.
Johnnycat93 wrote:Based on the preview in Rifter #62 I am no longer any sort of enthusiastic about the book. I'll still get it because I love PA and Robots and just gear in general (and hopefully one of the books prints the Ishpeming SF OCC so that there will finally be an update of the Special Forces), but I don't expect to not get a headache while reading it.
I hope once you get the books, your mind will feel more refreshed and enthusiastic as there is a boatload of material that I think you will enjoy.
Johnnycat93 wrote:Based on the preview in Rifter #62 I am no longer any sort of enthusiastic about the book. I'll still get it because I love PA and Robots and just gear in general (and hopefully one of the books prints the Ishpeming SF OCC so that there will finally be an update of the Special Forces), but I don't expect to not get a headache while reading it.
Really looking at the unit although the main gun damage seems a tad low but not outrageously so the whole package actually is a really solid robot. One thing I think people miss is it has two dedicated gunners on a very small robot the thing is only about 16 feet tall so its barely taller than most power armor and has three people and three people worth of actions to do stuff. Also the mini missiles and grenade launcher gives it a really solid alpha strike and great versitility. The grenade launcher is capable of 3 shot volleys so you can do 6d6x3 using plasma grenades to I think a 5 foot blast radius. That is actually a pretty high damage punch although the ammo when doing three shot volleys is a tad limited basically enough for 30 3 shot bursts. That said they are basically just using standard NG rifle launched grenades so the cost per round is very reasonable for mercs.
This gives it the ability to either stick with rail gun/ion gun for maximum endurance cost per shot but when combat gets up close or you have a nasty target it has a very solid choices of alpha strikes where you can burst with grenades if you want to do high damage but save some cash or burst with mini missiles if you just need to kill it with fire now.
One other interesting thing I noted in my reread of it there is a new engine option it was a 5 year solid fuel option which was quite a bit cheaper than nuclear but still has a long lifespan.
It also is a pretty manuverable unit speeds doing its leaping bounding movement is I think 115 MPH and gives -1 to hit and -3 I think to called shots which in addition to penalties for hitting smaller targets makes hitting anything other than the main body on this bot VERY hard.
Johnnycat93 wrote:Based on the preview in Rifter #62 I am no longer any sort of enthusiastic about the book. I'll still get it because I love PA and Robots and just gear in general (and hopefully one of the books prints the Ishpeming SF OCC so that there will finally be an update of the Special Forces), but I don't expect to not get a headache while reading it.
Really looking at the unit although the main gun damage seems a tad low but not outrageously so the whole package actually is a really solid robot. One thing I think people miss is it has two dedicated gunners on a very small robot the thing is only about 16 feet tall so its barely taller than most power armor and has three people and three people worth of actions to do stuff. Also the mini missiles and grenade launcher gives it a really solid alpha strike and great versitility. The grenade launcher is capable of 3 shot volleys so you can do 6d6x3 using plasma grenades to I think a 5 foot blast radius. That is actually a pretty high damage punch although the ammo when doing three shot volleys is a tad limited basically enough for 30 3 shot bursts. That said they are basically just using standard NG rifle launched grenades so the cost per round is very reasonable for mercs.
This gives it the ability to either stick with rail gun/ion gun for maximum endurance cost per shot but when combat gets up close or you have a nasty target it has a very solid choices of alpha strikes where you can burst with grenades if you want to do high damage but save some cash or burst with mini missiles if you just need to kill it with fire now.
One other interesting thing I noted in my reread of it there is a new engine option it was a 5 year solid fuel option which was quite a bit cheaper than nuclear but still has a long lifespan.
It also is a pretty manuverable unit speeds doing its leaping bounding movement is I think 115 MPH and gives -1 to hit and -3 I think to called shots which in addition to penalties for hitting smaller targets makes hitting anything other than the main body on this bot VERY hard.
Huh. Now I'm curious.
Addendum to previous thoughts / posts by msyelf and others; I'm not about increasing DAMAGE, but the ranges for mecha scaled weapons REALLY needs to be increased to fit into plausability. Keep the infantry weapons as-is, but give the poor tank scaled stuff at least a X2 or even X5 boost in ranges.
Bind the body to the opened mind Bind the body to the opened mind
I dream of towers in a world consumed A void in the sentient sky I dream of fissures across the moon Leaves of the lotus rise
Honestly I'd rule the main gun is an heavy auto cannon from Sourcebook revised (8000 ft range, 2d4x10 md) and the missile pods load either 12 short range missiles or 6 medium range missiles.
Everything else can stay the same and it would be reasonable. For the price of the robot you could probably outfit 20 people in Sampson suits which are more mobile and do more damage with their main guns.
"If a child shows a particular abundance of pity for fools or an overwhelming disdain for jibber jabber he is plucked from his family and raised by monks in the T-emple."
Johnnycat93 wrote:Based on the preview in Rifter #62 I am no longer any sort of enthusiastic about the book. I'll still get it because I love PA and Robots and just gear in general (and hopefully one of the books prints the Ishpeming SF OCC so that there will finally be an update of the Special Forces), but I don't expect to not get a headache while reading it.
Really looking at the unit although the main gun damage seems a tad low but not outrageously so the whole package actually is a really solid robot. One thing I think people miss is it has two dedicated gunners on a very small robot the thing is only about 16 feet tall so its barely taller than most power armor and has three people and three people worth of actions to do stuff. Also the mini missiles and grenade launcher gives it a really solid alpha strike and great versitility. The grenade launcher is capable of 3 shot volleys so you can do 6d6x3 using plasma grenades to I think a 5 foot blast radius. That is actually a pretty high damage punch although the ammo when doing three shot volleys is a tad limited basically enough for 30 3 shot bursts. That said they are basically just using standard NG rifle launched grenades so the cost per round is very reasonable for mercs.
This gives it the ability to either stick with rail gun/ion gun for maximum endurance cost per shot but when combat gets up close or you have a nasty target it has a very solid choices of alpha strikes where you can burst with grenades if you want to do high damage but save some cash or burst with mini missiles if you just need to kill it with fire now.
One other interesting thing I noted in my reread of it there is a new engine option it was a 5 year solid fuel option which was quite a bit cheaper than nuclear but still has a long lifespan.
It also is a pretty manuverable unit speeds doing its leaping bounding movement is I think 115 MPH and gives -1 to hit and -3 I think to called shots which in addition to penalties for hitting smaller targets makes hitting anything other than the main body on this bot VERY hard.
Huh. Now I'm curious.
Addendum to previous thoughts / posts by msyelf and others; I'm not about increasing DAMAGE, but the ranges for mecha scaled weapons REALLY needs to be increased to fit into plausability. Keep the infantry weapons as-is, but give the poor tank scaled stuff at least a X2 or even X5 boost in ranges.
Honestly I would go the other way I would lower man portable weapon damage and keep tank/pa damage what it is now. The big confusion is over time man portable weapons crept up in power but they did a good job keeping the power armor and higher weapons in specific power levels. Knock the rifle damage back down to where the cap used to be 4d6 MDC for the heavy rifles and things work pretty well. It keeps infantry vs infantry combat pretty survivable where there is little chance of a one shot kill vs somebody in light body armor which is VERY possible with the new pulse weapons.
So man portable weapons are dangerous but not silly and vehicle mounted stuff is potent enough and even the light vehicle weapons can one shot kill somebody in light armor which is sensible.
rat_bastard wrote:Honestly I'd rule the main gun is an heavy auto cannon from Sourcebook revised (8000 ft range, 2d4x10 md) and the missile pods load either 12 short range missiles or 6 medium range missiles.
Everything else can stay the same and it would be reasonable. For the price of the robot you could probably outfit 20 people in Sampson suits which are more mobile and do more damage with their main guns.
I am fine with them having the main rail gun doing 1d4x10 but I kinda wish the ion gun was 1d6x10 or maybe 2d4x10. That way there is a bit more payoff for long range slightly less damage or shorter range harder hitting.
One thing to note though from the description it looks like the guns mounted on it that they are basically just vehicle mounts of standard NG support weaponry. This could indicate that once we get the full book those may be modular mounts since if they are just using standard gun types it should be pretty easy to swap them out for other NG standard weapons such as maybe a plasma cannon or heavy laser. That would add an interesting take on the NG stuff not as high tech as the CS states but more customizable.
I am getting less excited for these books as the days roll into weeks and weeks roll into months. If Kevin intends for this book to ship this month (and not be pushed back yet another month), then it needs to be finished and to the printer next week. Somehow, I don't see that happening. We will be lucky to see the softcover by GenCon and the hardcover sometime after that.
*Sniff, Sniff* Why does it smell like wet dog in here?!
Johnnycat93 wrote:Based on the preview in Rifter #62 I am no longer any sort of enthusiastic about the book. I'll still get it because I love PA and Robots and just gear in general (and hopefully one of the books prints the Ishpeming SF OCC so that there will finally be an update of the Special Forces), but I don't expect to not get a headache while reading it.
Really looking at the unit although the main gun damage seems a tad low but not outrageously so the whole package actually is a really solid robot. One thing I think people miss is it has two dedicated gunners on a very small robot the thing is only about 16 feet tall so its barely taller than most power armor and has three people and three people worth of actions to do stuff. Also the mini missiles and grenade launcher gives it a really solid alpha strike and great versitility. The grenade launcher is capable of 3 shot volleys so you can do 6d6x3 using plasma grenades to I think a 5 foot blast radius. That is actually a pretty high damage punch although the ammo when doing three shot volleys is a tad limited basically enough for 30 3 shot bursts. That said they are basically just using standard NG rifle launched grenades so the cost per round is very reasonable for mercs.
This gives it the ability to either stick with rail gun/ion gun for maximum endurance cost per shot but when combat gets up close or you have a nasty target it has a very solid choices of alpha strikes where you can burst with grenades if you want to do high damage but save some cash or burst with mini missiles if you just need to kill it with fire now.
One other interesting thing I noted in my reread of it there is a new engine option it was a 5 year solid fuel option which was quite a bit cheaper than nuclear but still has a long lifespan.
It also is a pretty manuverable unit speeds doing its leaping bounding movement is I think 115 MPH and gives -1 to hit and -3 I think to called shots which in addition to penalties for hitting smaller targets makes hitting anything other than the main body on this bot VERY hard.
Huh. Now I'm curious.
Addendum to previous thoughts / posts by msyelf and others; I'm not about increasing DAMAGE, but the ranges for mecha scaled weapons REALLY needs to be increased to fit into plausability. Keep the infantry weapons as-is, but give the poor tank scaled stuff at least a X2 or even X5 boost in ranges.
On ranges I FULLY agree with you. The ranges in rifts are really oddly low and phase world is even worse where the low ranges make even less sense especially the space combat ranges. The really weird thing is robotech in general has very reasonable ranges on their mechs and spaceships and if it does not break that I never understood why they would not use similar ranges in rifts.
"
