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Thinyser wrote:

jaymz wrote:The difference is some GMs will say your power punch does actually occur until your next next attack (because you only can use one attack at a time) thus you wait and can be interrupted. In this case your power punch is instantaneous. Same goes for spells that require more than one attack to cast.

That can be done without any phases. The GM just says it takes effect immediately and you lose the next action.

No i am saying movement is not attached to your attacks at all. Thus people with SPD 10 can move the exact same distance in the same amount of time (in a phase) and get there the same time as opposed to the way it is now.

Explain this further please maybe an example using Mr 13 attacks Speed 10 and Mr 6 attacks speed 10. Compare and contrast from PB RAW vs Phase so I can understand exactly how this works. I think I know but I wanna have you clarify to make sure.

No i am saying you declare all of your attacks as opposed to one at a time. IE I am going to shoot him twice, then take a shot at that guy and that guy. You make all four rolls at once. Then the defenders react accordingly as needed if they can. As oposed to "ok I shoot that guy, roll defender rolls, ok I shoot him again, roll defender rolls, etc."

Gotcha, I see how that can speed things up a little bit since you are not going person to person to person around the table as much. This is making much more sense now. Thanks.

I never said it actually speeds up combat but it does make it seem quicker as players will not be sitting around doing nothing. Time seems to pass quicker when you are doing something as opposed to sitting there waiting. IE it negates the "a watched pot never boils" syndrome.

Agreed it will seem faster for sure. Might actually BE a bit faster too.

perception of slowness or quickness has as much to do with the problem as actual slowness or quickness here.

Well that depends I agree that a fast paced fight is more fun for everybody BUT as the OP said he doesn't have 14 hours a weekend to devote to gaming so we are trying to cut down on "actual" time spent grinding through combat. Its nice to perceive things as not taking as long but when dealing with real world time constraints this perception of a 4 hour combat taking only 2 hours (WOW that was an awesome fight) doesn't help get the other 2 hours back.

I myself am in the same boat as the OP. I get to game maybe 1-2 times a month for 5-6 hours each time so quick combat would be awesome for our group. So while a 4 hour combat seeming like 2 hours is a step up from a 4 hour combat draggin on and feeling like a full 4 hours it still eats up the majority of our session where if we could cut it down to 2 hours of actual time that would still leave the majority of the session open for RP and other stuff which is what I think the OP is after (and I would love for my group as well)

1 - unless of course your GM doesn't do that as I stated previously many do not in fact do that.

2 - Mr 13 attacks versus Mr 6 attacks both with a SPD of 10. movement does not use any attacks/actions per se but you are limited to how much you can move per each attack/action.

By RAW Mr 13 can only move 2.2m per attack/action (10x5/13) while Mr 6 can move 8.3m per attack/action. They both need to get to an object 15m away. First round of attacks/actions Mr 13 gets to move 2.2m while Mr 6 gets to move 8.3m. Second round of attacks/actions Mr 13 moves another 2.2m and Mr 6 moves another 8.3m getting to the object a full 10m ahead of Mr13 yet they have the same SPD due to how movement is calculated based on the number of attacks/actions a character has.

MY way with the phases they always have the same SPD as follows:

Mr 13 attacks versus Mr 6 attacks both with a SPD of 10. This means they can both move a maximum of 16.7m thus they will reach the object at the same time unless they use their attacks/actions to slow the other down. This method disconnects movement form attacks/actions and reconnects it to time as it should be, since attacks/actions are always fluid as to how much time they take whereas how far you can run has nothing to do with how many times you can do something but everything to do with how fast you are, thus you can run Xm in Y time.

Hope that helps.

3 - You are welcome

4 - If at the end of the night if everyone had fun and didn't feel that "time dragged for combat" does it matter? If it didn't feel like time was wasted, as dragging time can do, then does it REALLY matter if combat took 3 hours yet everyone had fun and never realized it took that long?

Just want to say thanks all for the additional ideas and conversation on this topic.

It looks like there are no hard or fast solutions. In a few play tests rolling all the defenses into To Hit target numbers, and further tweaking (Armor Thresholds, defense stat, ect...) did make a small difference but not quite as significant as I was hoping. Next I am likely to implement to quick decision (5-15 sec) into my games to help keep everyone on track. I had thought about this before, but never tried enforcing it.

I do think flatline made a good point that some games are systematically faster. However most of those have a vastly smaller and fixed health pool, and it could just be that the Palladium system with HP, SDC, and MDC that you need to whittle your way through make combat naturally longer.

jaymz wrote:
2 - Mr 13 attacks versus Mr 6 attacks both with a SPD of 10. movement does not use any attacks/actions per se but you are limited to how much you can move per each attack/action.

By RAW Mr 13 can only move 2.2m per attack/action (10x5/13) while Mr 6 can move 8.3m per attack/action. They both need to get to an object 15m away. First round of attacks/actions Mr 13 gets to move 2.2m while Mr 6 gets to move 8.3m. Second round of attacks/actions Mr 13 moves another 2.2m and Mr 6 moves another 8.3m getting to the object a full 10m ahead of Mr13 yet they have the same SPD due to how movement is calculated based on the number of attacks/actions a character has.

MY way with the phases they always have the same SPD as follows:

Mr 13 attacks versus Mr 6 attacks both with a SPD of 10. This means they can both move a maximum of 16.7m thus they will reach the object at the same time unless they use their attacks/actions to slow the other down. This method disconnects movement form attacks/actions and reconnects it to time as it should be, since attacks/actions are always fluid as to how much time they take whereas how far you can run has nothing to do with how many times you can do something but everything to do with how fast you are, thus you can run Xm in Y time.

Hope that helps.

Yeah thats pretty much how I figured it was. See the thing is they still burn up all their actions for that phase in movement Mr.13 uses 4-5 attacks to move those 16.7m in 5 seconds and Mr.6 uses 2. They don't retain these actions to use later in the round so despite it being tied to time its really just a matter of saying "yes you can swing your sword 4 or 5 times or run that 16m and you can swing your sword 2 times or run that 16 meters. While this does solve the problem large # of attacks slowing a PC down (and speeding up combat a bit) this is relatively simple to handle in combat w/o shifting to phase system and having to dedicate a whole phase to movement.

Here is how.

Spd is = ft/s (I'll do the math to prove this if you want but I'm sure you know this or can figure it out yourself). If a character says I want to run to X position you simply determine the distance (lets say 50 feet) by Spd (10) and say "OK it takes 5 seconds to get there And you lose x attacks doing this" (x being determined as follows), 15 second melee divided into 13 attacks is 1.15 seconds per attack 5/1.15 =4.34 attacks (round up to 5 or down to 4 depending on your GM whim) or for Mr.6 15/6=2.5, 5 seconds/2.5 is 2 attacks lost. It works out to be the same as the phase system but w/o having to dedicate a phase to movement. As stated above, your way WILL speed up combat since it makes players dedicate a whole span of 5 seconds to movement and no other decisions need to (or even can be, it seems) made during this phase. While In normal combat Mr 13 is running he could see that Mr 6 is also running at the same object, stop pull out a pistol and shoot at him, this will delay him by 1.15 seconds but might discourage Mr.6 from his course. And if Mr 6 tries to dodge he is delayed 2.5 seconds (or twice that if he dove to the ground and has to take another action to get on his feet to continue running toward the object). Depending on the GM you can even "run and gun" where you fire as you move at top speed (wild shots of course) or at half speed with only minor penalties so that movement can overlap combat actions, in which case dedicating a whole 5 seconds to only movement becomes very silly. If you are going for pure speed of combat the phase system handles movement very quickly but limits the dynamics and cinematic quality of a fight. Its a trade off I don't know that I would be willing to make.

4 - If at the end of the night if everyone had fun and didn't feel that "time dragged for combat" does it matter? If it didn't feel like time was wasted, as dragging time can do, then does it REALLY matter if combat took 3 hours yet everyone had fun and never realized it took that long?

IMO not really, fun is the important thing, but some GM's have goals/plot points they want to accomplish that session and if they dont get to them the don't feel they had a "productive" session and felt that they "wasted" time on combat instead of advancing the story. I get that aspect of it but I try not to get hung up on it.

42dragon wrote:I do think flatline made a good point that some games are systematically faster. However most of those have a vastly smaller and fixed health pool, and it could just be that the Palladium system with HP, SDC, and MDC that you need to whittle your way through make combat naturally longer.

This, I believe, is the primary culprit.

It takes, on average, 10 shots from the SAMAS railgun to destroy another SAMAS. This is why combat often devolves into mindless rolling of dice.

In most games, 2 or 3 solid hits is plenty for one combatant to take another comparable combatant out of the fight. Palladium got it right with Recon and early Fantasy, but with the possible exception of Spicers, Palladium got it wrong with everything else.

--flatline

Thinsyer - actually neither of them use any attacks because moving doesn't actual cost an attack. It only limits how far you can actually move which it should not. If you can move x meters in y time how many attacks you have us irrelevant as I showed above.

As for the gm feeling it was unproductive..... Again if at the end of the night if everyone had fun, didn't think it was a waste of time even though the goals weren't reached that night then does it matter? It shouldn't even for the gm. Myself as gm get much satisfaction out the players having had a good time over whether or not we reached the goals I had planned.

jaymz wrote:Thinsyer - actually neither of them use any attacks because moving doesn't actual cost an attack. It only limits how far you can actually move which it should not. If you can move x meters in y time how many attacks you have us irrelevant as I showed above.

That makes no sense. It is relevant because both movement and attacks do take time to execute. It takes you X time to cover Y distance and it takes you X time to use Y weapon. If it doesn't use the attacks that they would have during that phase or negate their use later (ie you lose those attacks) then they still have those attacks to use later. You could move during phase one and two then have 13 attacks to use in phase three or maybe even move for phase 1, 2 & nearly all of 3 and then use all 13 attacks in the last split second before the next round starts. This is just getting silly...

You cannot completely disassociate movement in combat and attacks/actions and have it be logical in the end. You can rule that you can move and attack/act at the same time so that they overlap (run and gun). You can say that you move instead of attacking/acting and those attacks/actions were spent in motion... or you can say for each action you can move X distance or attack (which gets wonky because more attacks per melee means that you move less per attack but can move more often), but some how they have to both be associated to time because neither happens instantly.

As for the gm feeling it was unproductive..... Again if at the end of the night if everyone had fun, didn't think it was a waste of time even though the goals weren't reached that night then does it matter? It shouldn't even for the gm. Myself as gm get much satisfaction out the players having had a good time over whether or not we reached the goals I had planned.

Like I said I don't get hung up on it but I can see how some GM's might think its a big deal.

I consider movement to be somewhat important in that I want to know if a character is capable of covering a specific distance in the course of any single action, whether it can leap over a particular obstacle, or if it can use an unorthodox form of locomotion (flight, tunneling, teleportation, etc) to bypass a threat. It's not really too relevant to the topic of this thread though, so I'll hold further comment for a more appropriate one.

Thinsyer -my point is there is nothing in the rules that states you actually USE an action to move only that you can only move x meters during your attack thus more attacks actually make you slower. Disassociating it in to the phase now stops the while more attacks makes you slower problem but keeps the "can I make it there in my turn" because turns no longer equal attacks.

Attacks become how many things can you do on your turn as opposed to each attack being a turn in and of itself and movement becomes how far you can move on your turn instead being tied to how many things you can do.

jaymz wrote:Thinsyer -my point is there is nothing in the rules that states you actually USE an action to move only that you can only move x meters during your attack thus more attacks actually make you slower. Disassociating it in to the phase now stops the while more attacks makes you slower problem but keeps the "can I make it there in my turn" because turns no longer equal attacks.

Attacks become how many things can you do on your turn as opposed to each attack being a turn in and of itself and movement becomes how far you can move on your turn instead being tied to how many things you can do.

So on your 1st turn (phase 1) you have 4 actions and you chose to run at an object. Do you then lose those actions or do you retain them for use in later turns? Simple question, simple answer.

You donor lose the actions just as you do not lose the actions the other way.

jaymz wrote:You do not lose the actions just as you do not lose the actions the other way.

So you have them for later use? and can use them whenever you want during the following 2 phases?

What other way?

Thinyser wrote:

jaymz wrote:You do not lose the actions just as you do not lose the actions the other way.

So you have them for later use? and can use them whenever you want during the following 2 phases?

What other way?

no you use the actions during that phase.
Movement is separate from combat.
Example:
Player A: 13 APM (Phased: 5/4/4)
Player B: 6 APM (Phased: 2/2/2)
Both have a SPD of 10 (Both can cover 50 feet in one phase)
Both are racing to grab an object 50 feet away.
Player A has 5 opportunities to stymie B during the "race."
Player B has 2 such opportunities.
Now making movements will incur penalties to actions preformed. (Jaymz uses a penalty system slightly different from mine but both systems do use penaties).

Oh, they have penalties in juicer uprising. Just in case you didn't know.

Alrik Vas wrote:Oh, they have penalties in juicer uprising. Just in case you didn't know.

Yes but the rules in JU are written with the use of the "more attacks move slower" design which the phased combat system avoids.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Thinyser wrote:

jaymz wrote:You do not lose the actions just as you do not lose the actions the other way.

So you have them for later use? and can use them whenever you want during the following 2 phases?

What other way?

no you use the actions during that phase.
Movement is separate from combat.
Example:
Player A: 13 APM (Phased: 5/4/4)
Player B: 6 APM (Phased: 2/2/2)
Both have a SPD of 10 (Both can cover 50 feet in one phase)
Both are racing to grab an object 50 feet away.
Player A has 5 opportunities to stymie B during the "race."
Player B has 2 such opportunities.
Now making movements will incur penalties to actions preformed. (Jaymz uses a penalty system slightly different from mine but both systems do use penaties).

So pretty much how I described it above? More or less?
Here is what I said a few posts up

Thinyser wrote:Spd is = ft/s (I'll do the math to prove this if you want but I'm sure you know this or can figure it out yourself). If a character says I want to run to X position you simply determine the distance (lets say 50 feet) by Spd (10) and say "OK it takes 5 seconds to get there And you lose x attacks doing this" (x being determined as follows), 15 second melee divided into 13 attacks is 1.15 seconds per attack 5/1.15 =4.34 attacks (round up to 5 or down to 4 depending on your GM whim) or for Mr.6 15/6=2.5, 5 seconds/2.5 is 2 attacks lost. It works out to be the same as the phase system but w/o having to dedicate a phase to movement. As stated above, your way WILL speed up combat since it makes players dedicate a whole span of 5 seconds to movement and no other decisions need to (or even can be, it seems) made during this phase. While In normal combat Mr 13 is running he could see that Mr 6 is also running at the same object, stop pull out a pistol and shoot at him, this will delay him by 1.15 seconds but might discourage Mr.6 from his course. And if Mr 6 tries to dodge he is delayed 2.5 seconds (or twice that if he dove to the ground and has to take another action to get on his feet to continue running toward the object). Depending on the GM you can even "run and gun" where you fire as you move at top speed (wild shots of course) or at half speed with only minor penalties so that movement can overlap combat actions, in which case dedicating a whole 5 seconds to only movement becomes very silly. If you are going for pure speed of combat the phase system handles movement very quickly but limits the dynamics and cinematic quality of a fight. Its a trade off I don't know that I would be willing to make.

Prysus wrote:

Greetings and Salutations. Wow... okay. Thinyser, not like that at all. I don't know the Damian/Jaymz method that well, but from what I see in this thread you seem to be missing what they're saying. You're stuck onmovement costing attacks/actions. In their system, it doesn't.

Movement takes time, but not actions. So in their 5 second phase you can run/move AND take all your actions (none of which involve moving) in that phase, both. However movement does have penalties, such as firing wild (or with a penalty) if you shoot while moving.

If the other player trips you or drops a magic wall in your path, THAT will slow you down, but taking an action (whether to shoot, cast a spell, or dodge) does NOT affect your movement/speed/progress.

Now that's a movement rule. I don't actually see the big change the phase system adds other than changing the rounds from 15 seconds to 5 seconds, otherwise no big difference.

Ah well, that's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

So movement is then "free" meaning it does not take any actions.

So one would be able to run at full speed for the full 15 seconds while also casting your normal limit of spells? or dodging 13 times? or say tying ones shoes? Hmm seems reasonable...

Considering that is exactly what you can do as per the RAW how is it not reasonable? No where is it stated in order to move any distance that you must use an attack to do so.

Edit - the only thing attacks tell you is how far you can move not that you have to use an attack to do so. This isn't d20.

I know it completely goes counter to the system, but i keep APM and let movement be part of each attack. If they move as part of the action, they just take penalties.

Though, the way movement and combat has been explained before, more attacks doesn't actually move slower. They still base it off of time passed vs speed, rather than dividing it among your attacks. They just tell you how far you've moved by each attack you're using.

So Jaymz and Damian's system, if i'm understanding it, work similarly to it, but are simpler to follow.

Alrick. Problem is in theory yes it's based on time but in use it isn't because if the round robin nature if the regular melee round

Oh, yeah, i get you on that. That's basically why phases work better, though I like the way i do it as well.

I like the combat system as is. Just me I guess. And since I switched over to sdc I no longer call out a strike on a 15 is coming at you. Now its "a strike comes at you" watch your pc's burn dodges on attacks that didn't even pass their armor rating lol.
Evil yes. Fun yupyup.