Forums of the Megaverse®

Nightmask wrote:

Eclipse wrote:With a P.E. like that.. sure

Except that really doesn't do much for your survival, if you're in an SDC environment it grants you a lot of extra HP and makes passing a save vs Coma/Death easy but isn't as important to surviving as having a lot of MDC (in Rifts) or tons of SDC and HP elsewhere.

Pretty good save VS. Magic, too.

Also, while the ritual doesn't grant you any extra PPE, it does give you all Ley Line Walker abilities regarding ley lines.
Which includes:
-Sensing Ley Lines
-Read Ley Line and Magic Energy
-Ley Line Transmission
-Ley Line Phasing
-Ley Line Drifting
-Ley Line Rejuvenation
-Ley Line Observation Ball
-Ley Line Force Field
-Drawing PPE from Ley Lines.

He'd also be able to draw PPE from other people/creatures during a ritual, and/or from PPE batteries and objects.
And he'd be able to use TW devices that cannot normally be used by mundanes.

The Nightbane Wilderness Scout I mentioned earlier would have the P.P.E. to cast magic, since the Nightbane's P.P.E. base is similar to the Ley Line Walker's. Plus all the fun extras.

Nightmask wrote:

Hotrod wrote:I present a Rifts: Earth North America/Atlantis only approach: Old Yeller
(snip)
In summary, you have a range from 41 P.E. (with unrealistically low rolls on everything) to 114 P.E. (with unrealistically high rolls on everything). With the plausible outcome of 85 P.E. and his vast experience, you have a 100% assured success.

Yeah, uh, no the drugs aren't going to work, the ritual is for I believe 9 days (at least 7) and no drug (particularly those drugs) is going to last that long to provide any kind of PE benefit during something like this. I also don't think the super-power option for Scholars and Adventurers would apply to Dog Boys. Still, a good try.

That's an excellent point. I'm operating under the assumption that the survival check is at the conclusion of the ritual, an "all at once", one-time event that is earned by being impaled for several days. Your interpretation is that the save is based on a value averaged over several days. Pantheons specifies the timing of the saving throw on page 161:

At the end of nine days of meditation, still transfixed by the magical weapon, the character must roll to see if he survived the ordeal.

Though a reasonable GM could rule either way, the text as written seems to support my interpretation.

The super-power option in Conversion Book 1, page 43, does not specify that the character must be human. The only specific requirements are a lack of psionics and the character class must be scholar/adventurer. Old Yeller has a mutant abnormality of no psionics (which I should have mentioned; I will edit that in).

No doubt, I'm pushing it, but it's book legal.

Hotrod wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Hotrod wrote:I present a Rifts: Earth North America/Atlantis only approach: Old Yeller
(snip)
In summary, you have a range from 41 P.E. (with unrealistically low rolls on everything) to 114 P.E. (with unrealistically high rolls on everything). With the plausible outcome of 85 P.E. and his vast experience, you have a 100% assured success.

Yeah, uh, no the drugs aren't going to work, the ritual is for I believe 9 days (at least 7) and no drug (particularly those drugs) is going to last that long to provide any kind of PE benefit during something like this. I also don't think the super-power option for Scholars and Adventurers would apply to Dog Boys. Still, a good try.

That's an excellent point. I'm operating under the assumption that the survival check is at the conclusion of the ritual, an "all at once", one-time event that is earned by being impaled for several days. Your interpretation is that the save is spread out over several days. Pantheons does not specify the timing of the saving throw. For the purposes of this exercise, ambiguity can be interpreted by the submitter.

The super-power option in Conversion Book 1 is also unclear. It says to roll up a normal character. It does not specify that the character must be human. The only specific requirements are a lack of psionics and the character class. Old Yeller has a mutant abnormality of no psionics (which I should have mentioned). Is a non-psionic Dog Boy normal? That's a matter of interpretation.

No doubt, I'm pushing it, but that's what this exercise is about.

My interpretation is the save is at the end, one certainly doesn't make the save at the start or in the middle of a torturous ordeal but when it's concluded. I don't know how long the drug harness works for but you'd likely have to be an actual juicer if you wanted to benefit from chemically augmented PE and then you lose bonuses elsewhere.

AS far as the Dog Boy goes, I don't think any of the mutation abnormalities for them allows for not having psionics at all (although I haven't checked recently), since having psionics is like a primary focus for them and the CS likely has weeded out the non-psionic genes at this point.

Ah, that appears to be a mistake on my part. There is a recessive gene fluke that takes away all sensitive powers and replaces them with others. I mis-remembered it as taking away psionics entirely. Although substituting super powers for them doesn't seem unreasonable, it's not supported by canon.

So, unless there's a way to permanently destroy a dog boy's psionics, Old Yeller is gonna have to get put down.

Ooh, Gene Splicers! I hadn't thought of that. You're right! With gene splicing, you could have a human(ish), level 1 character. That's five bonus challenges! Well done!

Anyone know a canon way to prevent insanity?

Well, if you have the immune to fear psionic power, whatever that's called, I think you wouldn't have to worry about PTSD and high stress-triggered insanities while it's in effect.

Hotrod wrote:Anyone know a canon way to prevent insanity?

There might be a super-power somewhere, but not sure.

I think there is indeed an Impervious to Insanity in one of the HU2 Power books.

Maybe a rifts mindwerks implant like eternal brain (humans only) would boost up the insanity saves.. assuming you didn't get crappy side effects.

how about someone posts the actual process and penalties to avoid confusion. I traded my pantheons book for beer, aaaahhhhhhhhhhh cold beer

so the bonus to coma/death applies to this?

Rappanui wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Hotrod wrote:I present a Rifts: Earth North America/Atlantis only approach: Old Yeller
Old Yeller is a feral Dog Boy! Starts with a P.E. of 3D6 with possible bonus die. We'll assume 23 (exceptional, but plausible; we'll assign the highest attribute roll to P.E.).

Breed: Pit Bull: +2D6. We'll assume an average roll of 7. P.E. is now 30

OCC: Wilderness Scout. +1D4. We'll assume a roll of 3. P.E. is now 33

Skills: Takes a lot of physical ones. They add up to +9. P.E. is now 42. (Note that this character is at least level three, so he has six OCC related skills to select. Running is taken as a secondary skill.)
Forced march: +2
Gymnastics: +2
Kick Boxing: +1
Outdoorsmanship: +1
Physical Labor: +1
Running: +1
Wrestling: +1

Now, this is, so far, a typical Rifts character, which allows us, by CB1, to give him super powers. We'll take the Three Major option.
1. Animal Abilities: Bear. +3D6. We'll assume 11.
2. Animal Abilities: Hoofed. +2D6. We'll assume 7.
3. Animal Abilities: Canine. +1D6. We'll assume 3.
This brings our total to 63, and this character can now command a herd of dogs, bears, and hoofed animals.

After inadvertently doing an Aberrant High Lord a favor, the High Lord returns it with some symbiotes and lifespan extension. Old Yeller didn't want 'em, but the High Lord insisted/forced him to take them:
Symbiotic Heart (Splynn Dimensional Market): +3 to P.E.
Thundergut (Splynn Dimensional Market) +1d4 to P.E. We'll assume it's a 3.
We're up to 69 P.E.

After a long and prosperous life of adventuring (level 15), Old Yeller, having worked with some Asgardian Elves, decides he wants to try his hand at the Gift of Magic. He buys some drugs and hops through a rift to the big tree.
A little over a week out from the expected end of the ritual, he starts taking Mega (Juicer Uprising, page 63. +2 to PE.
He impales himself to the tree with some pointy magic thing or other.
Within an hour of the ritual's end, he takes Rush (designer drug from Triax, page 177 and Juicer Uprising, page 63) +10 to PE.
He also takes Juice (Juicer Uprising, page 63) +4 to PE

In summary, you have a range from 41 P.E. (with unrealistically low rolls on everything) to 114 P.E. (with unrealistically high rolls on everything). With the plausible outcome of 85 P.E. and his vast experience, you have a 100% assured success.

Yeah, uh, no the drugs aren't going to work, the ritual is for I believe 9 days (at least 7) and no drug (particularly those drugs) is going to last that long to provide any kind of PE benefit during something like this. I also don't think the super-power option for Scholars and Adventurers would apply to Dog Boys. Still, a good try.

Mutant Dogs have to pay for powers out of Bio E... other then that, the character still dies... coma or not.

This is not a normal mutant dog from HU or ATB, but one that was genetically engineered and there for Bio E doesn't apply here.

say652 wrote:so the bonus to coma/death applies to this?

No, it's listed as a save versus coma/death but then the book further explains that the percentage to survive is based solely on P.E. score plus character Level.

How about an Ecto-Traveler, or a Phantom? If their physical shell dies on the tree, their spirit still lives.

Glistam wrote:

say652 wrote:so the bonus to coma/death applies to this?

No, it's listed as a save versus coma/death but then the book further explains that the percentage to survive is based solely on P.E. score plus character Level.

No it doesn't, that is just a common house rule.

Rappanui wrote:a Mutant Anything with Multiple Selves, Super Regeneration, Regeneration Ultima, Space Native, and Homunculis.
3 majors 2 minors. he's now able to keep trying, Won't starve, die, and if he dies, the first time , he gets to retry again, .. and he gets to practice with his clone, and reabsorb clone once he works.
Hell he can walk around with his head detached,impaled, Nailed to a cross... endure the elements, ... Unless there's some sort of lifesucking vampirism around, He's gonna live a week or a year nailed head to toe to the tree.

Yes, it's called the Yggdrasil ritual. Doesn't matter how great your regenerative abilities are or ability to go without food or water it still subjects you to such extremes as to risk death in the process. Odin as a god obviously regenerates and requires neither food, water, nor air yet clearly nearly died from the ritual so it's quite obvious that having those qualities will gain you nothing due to the nature of the ritual.

Those magical rewards are pretty substantial..

Giant2005 wrote:

Glistam wrote:

say652 wrote:so the bonus to coma/death applies to this?

No, it's listed as a save versus coma/death but then the book further explains that the percentage to survive is based solely on P.E. score plus character Level.

No it doesn't, that is just a common house rule.

Glistam is correct.

Please see Pantheons of the Megaverse, bottom of page 161 and the top of page 162.

Furthermore, the character only gets to use the bonuses from one 'O.C.C. experience,' not multiple ones.

cornholioprime wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Glistam wrote:

say652 wrote:so the bonus to coma/death applies to this?

No, it's listed as a save versus coma/death but then the book further explains that the percentage to survive is based solely on P.E. score plus character Level.

No it doesn't, that is just a common house rule.

Glistam is correct.

Please see Pantheons of the Megaverse, bottom of page 161 and the top of page 162.

Furthermore, the character only gets to use the bonuses from one 'O.C.C. experience,' not multiple ones.

I'm starting to think later printings of the book have different rules regarding the tree...
I am currently staring at a third printing copy and it doesn't have any mention of not including save vs coma/death bonuses.

Giant2005 wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Glistam wrote:

say652 wrote:so the bonus to coma/death applies to this?

No, it's listed as a save versus coma/death but then the book further explains that the percentage to survive is based solely on P.E. score plus character Level.

No it doesn't, that is just a common house rule.

Glistam is correct.

Please see Pantheons of the Megaverse, bottom of page 161 and the top of page 162.

Furthermore, the character only gets to use the bonuses from one 'O.C.C. experience,' not multiple ones.

I'm starting to think later printings of the book have different rules regarding the tree...
I am currently staring at a third printing copy and it doesn't have any mention of not including save vs coma/death bonuses.

thats why i brought this up it should read level+pe+save vs coma/death to survive the trees challenge.

say652 wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:No it doesn't, that is just a common house rule.

Glistam is correct.

Please see Pantheons of the Megaverse, bottom of page 161 and the top of page 162.

Furthermore, the character only gets to use the bonuses from one 'O.C.C. experience,' not multiple ones.

I'm starting to think later printings of the book have different rules regarding the tree...
I am currently staring at a third printing copy and it doesn't have any mention of not including save vs coma/death bonuses.

thats why i brought this up it should read level+pe+save vs coma/death to survive the trees challenge.

No actually it shouldn't, it's not a standard save but the special save required in order to survive the ritual of the tree. It's not a mistake that the bonus isn't listed because the bonus doesn't apply. Just as you can run across something that has a special save against its poison without benefit of bonuses the tree's save is special and you can't benefit from the conventional bonus to save.

OK if something is going to kill you, as in you could DIE from it you get a save vs coma/death with the appropriate bonuses. jussayin

say652 wrote:OK if something is going to kill you, as in you could DIE from it you get a save vs coma/death with the appropriate bonuses. jussayin

Except where stated otherwise. Given the ritual does not say you get the usual bonuses and gives a very specific way of making the determination of your save percentage you do not get any bonuses to the save. Given Palladium will say 'and all other bonuses also apply' in some fashion where appropriate and given the ritual isn't meant to be easy then no one wouldn't get the bonuses to save someone might have. If they did they would effectively get their PE added in twice since higher levels of PE eventually become equal to the PE score and anything else which would make an ordeal that nearly killed a god ridiculously easy for mortals to pass which is always going to be contrary to the intent of common sense and the writers.

Something like the Yggdrasil ritual would never be presented in an easy to pass fashion, where you can stack on save bonuses from a variety of sources (and where with a few minor powers from HU you can easily max out the success possibility) and cakewalk it. By every measure it's meant to be hard, so only the toughest and most capable can ever hope to survive, not something anyone short of an asthmatic victim of polio could manage.

I am asthmatic, and have a arthritic knee.

say652 wrote:I am asthmatic, and have a arthritic knee.

And I've got bad knees and no stamina and neither of us should think we could do the test with any real chance of success, even the toughest of the tough should think twice and then a third time about whether or not they should risk such a trial. Nothing about it from getting their to undergoing the ritual should be easy, if you think it should be a cakewalk in your games that's up to you but it's clearly not supposed to be.

My GM Memnoch(I know tacky right) rolled it vs PE of 43+5th level for a 48% chance of success. The Norse giant lived and only lost 10MDC and i had all kinds of cool new abilities and spells on top of being a Reaver Assassin. Cutter (the characters name) was also subsiquently curbstomped by the Mechanoids. I ended up absobing the ppe of the dying survivors I was trying to protect and Space/time telepoprted tp Center, thoroughly defeated and because Memnoch is a !@#$%^&* I picked up a phobia of Mechanoids and strong dislike/distrust of Bionic beings of any sort.

At the end of nine days of meditation, still transfixed by the magical weapon, the character must roll to see if he survived the ordeal. Make a save against coma/death. The base saving throw is the character's P.E. attribute plus 1% per level of experience (only one O.C.C. experience can be used, do not add together more than one O.C.C.)

I will note, that there is no exclusions here, only the conditions for the base save. Which would indicate that bonuses to save could apply to that base number.

I think the old-school Zentradi is my favorite solution so far, still don't like that they made them MDC in the new RPG.
Dumbo seems good to, though I'd tend toward the bonuses-need-to-last-the-whole-time-to-count camp as far as the drugs go.
The Nightbane could possibly do it, though I'd be unsure if they could qualify for the ritual with their immunity to alteration.

Armorlord wrote:

At the end of nine days of meditation, still transfixed by the magical weapon, the character must roll to see if he survived the ordeal. Make a save against coma/death. The base saving throw is the character's P.E. attribute plus 1% per level of experience (only one O.C.C. experience can be used, do not add together more than one O.C.C.)

I will note, that there is no exclusions here, only the conditions for the base save. Which would indicate that bonuses to save could apply to that base number.

This.
It is really quite stupid to expect the books to tell us whenever bonuses apply - the general rule is that they always apply. For them to not apply the books need to tell us otherwise.
Look at the magic combat sections of the RMB and it posts a pretty clear picture with familiar looking statements like this:

RMB page 164 wrote:The Base Saving Throw against spell magic is 12

The RMB uses the exact same terminology and in the entire magic combat section, makes no mention of adding your save vs magic score to your die roll when making a save vs magic. Going by the logic used in this thread, a character's save vs magic score is just something to make your character sheet look pretty and serves no mechanical function.
Or more realistically, whenever we make a saving throw, all relevant bonuses to save apply unless told otherwise - this is only made even more obvious when told specifically so by using the all-informative term "base".

A level 1 Human Gladiator that rolls perfectly average on absolutely everything can get himself a 113% chance of surviving the ritual without dipping into anything that isn't provided by his OCC (His OCC even fulfills the magic weapon requirement):
He rolls an average PE of 11 and chooses Bio-Wizardry as his Gladiator feature, rolling an average 4 symbiotes, choosing a Symbiotic Heart, Absurr Life Node, Transfortifiers and Chest Amalgamate.
He chooses the following physical skills for a total of +12 to PE:
Wrestling
Tumbling
Running
Demon Wrestling
Cross Country Skiing
Gymnastics
2 random skills that add +1 PE each (There are a bunch, it doesn't matter which).
With those skills, his average PE roll of 11, his average Gladiator bonus of +3 and +3 from the Symbiotic Heart, his total PE is 29.
As a level 1 with a PE of 29, his base saving throw is $30.
He also gains an additional +83% from the following coma/death bonuses:
+28% (PE 29)
+10% (Gladiator)
+5% (Symbiotic Heart)
+20% (Absurr Life Node)
+10% (Transfortifiers)
+10% (Chest Amalgamate)

Totaling a combined chance of 113% to survive the ritual.

Rappanui wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Rappanui wrote:a Mutant Anything with Multiple Selves, Super Regeneration, Regeneration Ultima, Space Native, and Homunculis.
3 majors 2 minors. he's now able to keep trying, Won't starve, die, and if he dies, the first time , he gets to retry again, .. and he gets to practice with his clone, and reabsorb clone once he works.
Hell he can walk around with his head detached,impaled, Nailed to a cross... endure the elements, ... Unless there's some sort of lifesucking vampirism around, He's gonna live a week or a year nailed head to toe to the tree.

Yes, it's called the Yggdrasil ritual. Doesn't matter how great your regenerative abilities are or ability to go without food or water it still subjects you to such extremes as to risk death in the process. Odin as a god obviously regenerates and requires neither food, water, nor air yet clearly nearly died from the ritual so it's quite obvious that having those qualities will gain you nothing due to the nature of the ritual.

this is a matter of gm interpretation. the Yggdrassil ritual is also vague, and does not list all possible outcomes. the only limitation is that the subject not be undead. or Immaterial. and gods do not regenerate in a fashion similar to these powers, and generally do Die if beheaded or have their heads impaled. the Sheer combination of these powers Similarly remove all the conditions that make the ritual a burden to the character. AT the very least, these powers would boost the coma/death rituals to+66%. also, The book was written by CJ carella, who changes rules all the time because it made sense for him, but Later Rifts Goes to Extreme fashion to undue everything he did. So yes, the above powers will work, trying to Argue otherwise is Gm heresay. and not supported by the Letter of the rules. since the entirety of the rules he wrote the book have been negated.


Furthermore, the ritual basically worded around a mortal or immortal doing the ritual, not wether or not he's sucked into the yggdrassil Tree as an offering or joined the source wall like in DC universe. That is gm heresay. it merely says they succumb to THEIR Wounds. A wound that isn't fatal isn't going to kil lyou in a ritual unless there is a vampiric or soul stealing aspect to it. If you faile to kill the sacrifice but a condition is still met, the sacrifice doesn't automatically die, unless the ritual specifically causes it. say for example, You have 2 hearts. A Priest rips one out and offers it to his dark god, you'd normally die, but you still hve your 2nd heart. You don't die. Ritual Still Succeeds. .. Now you have one Angry time lord and a greater Demon to deal with..

I have no idea where you get this 'GM heresy' concept from, other than it being a whole lot of nonsense given the context it seems to be used in. Given the amount of flaming I've seen go on regarding anyone having easy access to something or even the appearance of it (such as in the Free Magic thread) I find it mind-boggling that there are people insisting that the Yggdrasil ritual should be an easy cakewalk and that the rules actually insist on it, it almost comes across as if people were insisting on it simply to disagree with my insisting it isn't and shouldn't be easy nor should someone be able to slap a few powers or spells onto a character and be able to treat something that nearly killed a god as if it were no big deal. That smacks of the worst kind of GMing from what I've seen in every kind of forum (including this one) and game book (like Dragon Magazine) around.

'Oh yeah, all I needed was some Regeneration and no need to eat, drink, or breathe and I was all set and now I've got every spell there is and a raft of neat abilities to go along with it.' Sounds ridiculous to me at least, pick a few powers and walk off with everything Yggdrasil has to offer. The ritual then isn't vague and does cover every possibility, instead it's expansive and all-inclusive, no matter what your powers or special abilities you're all made equal before the tree and there are no shortcuts. Either you risk death to gain the gift or you gain nothing. Given the tree is sentient and can grant boons like a Millennium tree can then the tree would certainly not be handing out its gifts to anyone who tried to circumvent the trial and gain everything at no risk to themselves.

It's been a while since i've said this, Nightmask, but I completely agree with your sentiment.

Of course, the point of this thread is to cheese the system, however.

Rappanui wrote:This is about semantics. if you're going to argue he's gonna die, that's bullcrap. AT best, The ritual Does not work on him due to his supernatural nature. Don't give Odin as an example, as the norse gods are very human, just supernatural. the Book Goes on to say that it does not work on supernatural Creatures but does work on Creatures of Magic, which gods most certainly are.

He could certainly die. Though with Ultima he could recover from that. (Maybe. We are talking about a ritual that would permanently damage even your Ultima guy on a success. So there is that..)
As for not working on a superpower doppelganger, I would agree that it wouldn't work (though it isn't supernatural), as it isn't actually person.
It is fairly clear that the ritual (bold because that word is important) is more than a mundane tree impalement. While I might feel that Nightmask is overzealous in interpreting that, it is very important to keep that in mind- no one is bypassing the core functions of the ritual. Being pinned via a conduit of magic to the Tree for an extended period is just part of that ritual, not the cause on the effects. You get pinned to a normal tree like that, and you'll actually be making saves and taking damage fairly often while starving with a sword stuck through you.

Side note, I'm not sure I'd class Palladium gods as Creatures of Magic either, not counting the Dragon Gods.

Alrik Vas wrote:It's been a while since i've said this, Nightmask, but I completely agree with your sentiment.

Of course, the point of this thread is to cheese the system, however.

Which is fine, I just don't believe the system allows for stacking in save bonuses from powers or class abilities when making the roll, and that it's purely based on PE+level.

Nightmask wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:It's been a while since i've said this, Nightmask, but I completely agree with your sentiment.

Of course, the point of this thread is to cheese the system, however.

Which is fine, I just don't believe the system allows for stacking in save bonuses from powers or class abilities when making the roll, and that it's purely based on PE+level.

Aye, and pretty clearly-worded at that.

Thus far, many of the 'builds' that I've seen in this Thread combine the PE bonuses from multiple sources, not the single additional bonus as was specified in the Yggdrasil write-up.

cornholioprime wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:It's been a while since i've said this, Nightmask, but I completely agree with your sentiment.

Of course, the point of this thread is to cheese the system, however.

Which is fine, I just don't believe the system allows for stacking in save bonuses from powers or class abilities when making the roll, and that it's purely based on PE+level.

Aye, and pretty clearly-worded at that.

Thus far, many of the 'builds' that I've seen in this Thread combine the PE bonuses from multiple sources, not the single additional bonus as was specified in the Yggdrasil write-up.

Plus the original post question operates under that position, it asks about somehow creating a character whose PE+Level can do the job of reaching 100%. If you include bonuses from various powers or class features it's no longer a challenge as there are so many ways of slapping a +20% here, +10% there, and so on to get a bonus of 100% or more. A minor mutant with Healing Factor, Healing Power, and Extraordinary PE alone could easily meet the challenge given how many +20% are available to it to combine with the extremely high PE it'll also end up having as all those powers provide bonuses to PE as well. It's just too easy to be considered a challenge like that.

cornholioprime wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:It's been a while since i've said this, Nightmask, but I completely agree with your sentiment.

Of course, the point of this thread is to cheese the system, however.

Which is fine, I just don't believe the system allows for stacking in save bonuses from powers or class abilities when making the roll, and that it's purely based on PE+level.

Aye, and pretty clearly-worded at that.

Thus far, many of the 'builds' that I've seen in this Thread combine the PE bonuses from multiple sources, not the single additional bonus as was specified in the Yggdrasil write-up.

Now, to be honest, while it is clearly worded, the words seem to mean the opposite of that. It is clearly stated as the base save, and it doesn't even remotely say anything like PE bonuses from a single source.
While there are certainly things suggested in this thread that I don't believe should work with the ritual, I do believe that ya'll might be swinging a little too far in the opposite direction. I mean, if we are discussing what the book actually says, these assertions are pretty far off.

Armorlord wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:It's been a while since i've said this, Nightmask, but I completely agree with your sentiment.

Of course, the point of this thread is to cheese the system, however.

Which is fine, I just don't believe the system allows for stacking in save bonuses from powers or class abilities when making the roll, and that it's purely based on PE+level.

Aye, and pretty clearly-worded at that.

Thus far, many of the 'builds' that I've seen in this Thread combine the PE bonuses from multiple sources, not the single additional bonus as was specified in the Yggdrasil write-up.

Now, to be honest, while it is clearly worded, the words seem to mean the opposite of that. It is clearly stated as the base save, and it doesn't even remotely say anything like PE bonuses from a single source.
While there are certainly things suggested in this thread that I don't believe should work with the ritual, I do believe that ya'll might be swinging a little too far in the opposite direction. I mean, if we are discussing what the book actually says, these assertions are pretty far off.

Just because it says 'Base Save' doesn't mean you get to add other bonuses into it. Given the wording of the text one can consider the PE number being the base and the one and only bonus you get to add to it being the highest level the character has. Given it's not meant to be an easy trial by any stretch of the imagination one can conclude that that's all you get to consider.

Nightmask wrote:

Armorlord wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:It's been a while since i've said this, Nightmask, but I completely agree with your sentiment.

Of course, the point of this thread is to cheese the system, however.

Which is fine, I just don't believe the system allows for stacking in save bonuses from powers or class abilities when making the roll, and that it's purely based on PE+level.

Aye, and pretty clearly-worded at that.

Thus far, many of the 'builds' that I've seen in this Thread combine the PE bonuses from multiple sources, not the single additional bonus as was specified in the Yggdrasil write-up.

Now, to be honest, while it is clearly worded, the words seem to mean the opposite of that. It is clearly stated as the base save, and it doesn't even remotely say anything like PE bonuses from a single source.
While there are certainly things suggested in this thread that I don't believe should work with the ritual, I do believe that ya'll might be swinging a little too far in the opposite direction. I mean, if we are discussing what the book actually says, these assertions are pretty far off.

Just because it says 'Base Save' doesn't mean you get to add other bonuses into it. Given the wording of the text one can consider the PE number being the base and the one and only bonus you get to add to it being the highest level the character has. Given it's not meant to be an easy trial by any stretch of the imagination one can conclude that that's all you get to consider.

Of course, that's what we've been saying all along. Your P.E. + Level and no other bonuses to save vs coma/death. As per Step 1 of character creation, the character's P.E. is rolled and noted in pencil because the final score is modified by skills, O.C.C. bonuses and powers.

Glistam wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Armorlord wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:Aye, and pretty clearly-worded at that.

Thus far, many of the 'builds' that I've seen in this Thread combine the PE bonuses from multiple sources, not the single additional bonus as was specified in the Yggdrasil write-up.

Now, to be honest, while it is clearly worded, the words seem to mean the opposite of that. It is clearly stated as the base save, and it doesn't even remotely say anything like PE bonuses from a single source.
While there are certainly things suggested in this thread that I don't believe should work with the ritual, I do believe that ya'll might be swinging a little too far in the opposite direction. I mean, if we are discussing what the book actually says, these assertions are pretty far off.

Just because it says 'Base Save' doesn't mean you get to add other bonuses into it. Given the wording of the text one can consider the PE number being the base and the one and only bonus you get to add to it being the highest level the character has. Given it's not meant to be an easy trial by any stretch of the imagination one can conclude that that's all you get to consider.

Of course, that's what we've been saying all along. Your P.E. + Level and no other bonuses to save vs coma/death. As per Step 1 of character creation, the character's P.E. is rolled and noted in pencil because the final score is modified by skills, O.C.C. bonuses and powers.

A few have been operating under the idea you get to include bonuses from things like Healing Factor (which provides a +20% bonus to the save vs coma/death) or can pick a a few powers and eliminate the need for the save altogether.

Glistam wrote:Of course, that's what we've been saying all along. Your P.E. + Level and no other bonuses to save vs coma/death. As per Step 1 of character creation, the character's P.E. is rolled and noted in pencil because the final score is modified by skills, O.C.C. bonuses and powers.

Wait, you aren't suggesting that somehow people have to have their initial dice roll on PE on hand for this save are you?

Nightmask wrote:A few have been operating under the idea you get to include bonuses from things like Healing Factor (which provides a +20% bonus to the save vs coma/death) or can pick a a few powers and eliminate the need for the save altogether.

As written, it would seem that normal bonuses to save vs coma/death would apply. However, I would disagree with anyone suggesting that they could actually do the ritual and not need a save, that is a built in part of the ritual, along with the damage and chance of death.

Now, if we were talking about how I would rule things in my game, I would be taking a close look at what bonuses were being applied and whether they could be in effect during the entire course of the ritual. Most 'clever but futile' ideas at trying to negate the chance of death would likely result in the subject being ineligible for the ritual, or in rolling a save and suffering the full effects.

I support th save vs coma/death bonsues apply because i have an awesome super that could use spell casting abilities. jussayin

While I agree with sticking with the book's "Base save equals PE+Lvl", I disagree with no other bonuses to save vs Come/Death could apply. However, I do disagree that supers could benefit from the ritual. I am going to keep with CB1 on this, in that those with magic powers cannot also have super powers, and vice-versa. That character would instinctively go to powers first, and would have next to no PPE to use the spells.

But if a character (in general) had made all of the effort to get to the trunk of the tree, as well as made the appropriate rolls as defined by their local GM, then yes, that character has survived the Ritual of the World Tree, and would receive all of the benefits from the tree. I.E., any spell that is capable of being learned by LLWs and wizards.

Granted, this might play merry havoc with GMs, depending on the player's researching ability. After all, there are a LOT of magics in a lot of books across the settings.

A multi-dimensional build. I removed all short-term drugs and added in a new category of bonuses. I present...

Smokey the Bearman

Smokey is a Bearman of the North. He starts with a P.E. of 6D6. We'll assume 32 (exceptional, but plausible).

OCC: Wilderness Scout. +1D4. We'll assume a roll of 2. P.E. is now 34

Skills: Takes a lot of physical ones. They add up to +9. P.E. is now 43. (Note that this character is at least level three, so he has six OCC related skills to select. Running is taken as a secondary skill.)
Forced march: +2
Gymnastics: +2
Kick Boxing: +1
Outdoorsmanship: +1
Physical Labor: +1
Running: +1
Wrestling: +1

Now Smokey is a typical Rifts character (non-psionic adventurer class), which allows us, by CB1, to give him super powers. We'll take the Three Major option.
1. Animal Abilities: Bear. +3D6. We'll assume 11.
2. Animal Abilities: Hoofed. +2D6. We'll assume 7.
3. Animal Abilities: Canine. +1D6. We'll assume 3.
This brings our total to 64, and this character can now command a herd of dogs, bears, and hoofed animals.

Unsatisfied with the fact that his day vision stinks, Smokey gets some symbiotic eyes in Atlantis. During the procedure, his lifelong diet of heavy fat and cholesterol catches up with him, and he has a heart attack. His companions pay for a new symbiotic heart and some Thundergut to help him pull through.
Symbiotic Heart (Splynn Dimensional Market): +3 to P.E.
Thundergut (Splynn Dimensional Market) +1d4 to P.E. We'll assume it's a 3.
We're up to 70 P.E.

Smokey decides to bulk up some more and takes Mega (Juicer Uprising, page 63. +2 to PE.). This is a long-term steroid which will pull him through the ritual (He can take some long-delay pills just before starting, if necessary)
We're now up to 72 P.E.

Smokey acquires an Attribute Booster ring (PF Western Empire, page 159) +3 to P.E, which brings it to 75 P.E.

Here, I use the wonderfully-inclusive word, "all" to give Smokey a bit more of an edge.

One of his buddies is a summoner, who creates the Power circle (The actual "Power" power circle, page 153 PF 2nd Ed) on a carpet with a permanence ward. This gives a +5 on all saving throws to those within.
He owns Deathkiss, the Demon Sword. (Page 90, Library of Bletherad). +4 to all saving throws.
He also owns a rune book. Another +1 to all saving throws. (PF 2nd Ed, Alchemy section)

Smokey is level 15.

In summary, you have a range from 31P.E. (with unrealistically low rolls on everything) to 95 P.E. (with unrealistically high rolls on everything). With the plausible outcome of 75 P.E., plus his +10 to all saving throws, plus his vast experience, Smokey has a 100% assured success. [/quote]

As a GM I would not allow the magic bonuses versus saving throws to apply. It's P.E. + Level and that's it.

Once a character stops taking Mega they have a month before they lose their bonuses, so yoou don't lose your bonus during the ritual.

Glistam wrote:As a GM I would not allow the magic bonuses versus saving throws to apply. It's P.E. + Level and that's it.

Once a character stops taking Mega they have a month before they lose their bonuses, so yoou don't lose your bonus during the ritual.

No doubt many, and possibly most people would agree with you. I'm simply exploiting the absolute inclusiveness of the word "all". It's semantics, but like the title of the thread says, it's a Munchkin/Rule Nazi contest. Your interpretation, while a perfectly valid judgment, is a subjective interpretation of a canon conflict.

If the universal save isn't good enough, one can always add in a lot of winter skills from Rifts: Canada

With two secondary skills and five OCC related, you can add 8 more P.E.

Ice Skating: +1 to P.E.
Figure Skating: +1 to P.E.
Hockey: +1 to P.E.
Speed Skating: +1 to P.E.

Snow Skiing: +1 to P.E.
Downhill Skiing: +1 to P.E.
Cross Country Skiing: +2 to P.E.

Hotrod wrote:If the universal save isn't good enough, one can always add in a lot of winter skills from Rifts: Canada

With two secondary skills and five OCC related, you can add 8 more P.E.

Ice Skating: +1 to P.E.
Figure Skating: +1 to P.E.
Hockey: +1 to P.E.
Speed Skating: +1 to P.E.

Snow Skiing: +1 to P.E.
Downhill Skiing: +1 to P.E.
Cross Country Skiing: +2 to P.E.

Nice find!