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Jefffar wrote:I am sure the Masters would have taken steps to ensure the weapons of their former slaves were useless against them. They strike me as the right combination of paranoid and intelligent for that.

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Seto wrote:That raises the question of whether or not the UEDF/UEEF had a shortage of ships to begin with... or at least, a shortage that didn't coincide with a shortage of manpower to crew said ships.

Actual shortage or perceived shortage of ships? Because at the very least we know the UEDF/UEEF had a perceived shortage of ships at one point (circa 2013) and they seemed to hold off on the Pioneer mission until the SDF-3 was ready (2022), though we know they had ships out there (2016/2013).

Manpower to crew said ships is a factor, but they could have resulted in a push for more automation to reduce the need for a large crew size.

Manpower may not have been as huge of an issue as you think. There are allot of possible sources for expanding the manpower available for the fleet.

1. There were allot more survivors of the ROD then just the 70,000 on the SDF-1. For example Leanord and others were in Antartica when the ROD happened. the Fluff on page 20 of the Masters Sourcebook states that "The Zentraedi orbital bombardment destroyed the majority of the Earth's population." then it goes on to describe the UEDF facility that he found in the Andes and banding together with UEDF and civilian survivors. The fluff also describes various other people around the world in various factions like the AUL, Zentraedi Malcontents, and various feudal nations. Consider that many AUL folks might have joined after they witnessed millions of people killed around them... "I am gonna go get me some payback for my FATHER you alien bastards!"

2. Zentraedi that joined the UEG forces - From Bretai's fleet, Reno's Fleet, Dolza's Fleet and other units not pictured in the shows such as the border fleets: potential Minmei converts were everywhere.

3. Zentraedi and Zentraedi / Human Children - with the zentraedi learning about themselves and their biological capabilities, lots of kids are bound to be born.

4. Cloning chambers

5. Other Human space ships and stations that were not destroyed during the war...starting with the moon base ALUCE and possibly other locations within the Solar System.

Jefffar wrote:I am sure the Masters would have taken steps to ensure the weapons of their former slaves were useless against them. They strike me as the right combination of paranoid and intelligent for that.

This hs been brought up before in other forums, and the usual excuse is that the Master's were to stupid to do so.

Jefffar wrote:I am sure the Masters would have taken steps to ensure the weapons of their former slaves were useless against them. They strike me as the right combination of paranoid and intelligent for that.

That's only possible if it's possible to render the weapons useless against them, often you can't manage 'well this weapon doesn't work on us' (which is why the Megaversal Legion's enslavers included those brain bombs in case their mechanical disables on their weapons failed or their slaves acquired weapons that they didn't create).

i could see the master's planning a "cylon virus" scenario.. build a kill switch into all the software that trips when the master's send a series of specific signals, so any zent who rebel can be shut down remotely and massacred.

glitterboy2098 wrote:i could see the master's planning a "cylon virus" scenario.. build a kill switch into all the software that trips when the master's send a series of specific signals, so any zent who rebel can be shut down remotely and massacred.

Isn't that not much different than the automatic recall command we see used against Kyron in the anime? It allowed remote control over all of his forces to force them to return.

I was thinking more something like the auto-recall feature that was seen in the previous version of the Zentraedi flagship stats. A remote override that powers down the rebelling Zentraedi ships.

sirkermittsg wrote:Manpower may not have been as huge of an issue as you think. There are allot of possible sources for expanding the manpower available for the fleet.

1. There were allot more survivors of the ROD then just the 70,000 on the SDF-1. For example Leanord and others were in Antartica when the ROD happened. the Fluff on page 20 of the Masters Sourcebook states that "The Zentraedi orbital bombardment destroyed the majority of the Earth's population." then it goes on to describe the UEDF facility that he found in the Andes and banding together with UEDF and civilian survivors. The fluff also describes various other people around the world in various factions like the AUL, Zentraedi Malcontents, and various feudal nations. Consider that many AUL folks might have joined after they witnessed millions of people killed around them... "I am gonna go get me some payback for my FATHER you alien bastards!"

I have always kind of looked at it like the RoD hit major population centers (big cities) at first and were going to move on to the rest of the planet with additional strikes....but the SDF-1 and Breetai's fleet (along with the Grand Canyon) layed out the pimp slappin' on Dolza's forces before they could fire again. Yes, billions died. but there could still be hundreds of millions left.

Jefffar wrote:I was thinking more something like the auto-recall feature that was seen in the previous version of the Zentraedi flagship stats. A remote override that powers down the rebelling Zentraedi ships.

exodore confirms the history of the zents had them rebel against their creators over 500,000 years ago... in the following years I imagine the masters would have installed the same recall overrides in their own ships as bretia used. Or even and improved system that could disable or destroy their slaves ships

ShadowLogan wrote:Actual shortage or perceived shortage of ships? Because at the very least we know the UEDF/UEEF had a perceived shortage of ships at one point (circa 2013) and they seemed to hold off on the Pioneer mission until the SDF-3 was ready (2022), though we know they had ships out there (2016/2013).

Manpower to crew said ships is a factor, but they could have resulted in a push for more automation to reduce the need for a large crew size.

I'd have to say "both", honestly... apart from the advanced scout group we see got massacred, ships are kind of thin on the ground for human use (and almost certainly Zentradi use as well).

sirkermittsg wrote:1. There were allot more survivors of the ROD then just the 70,000 on the SDF-1.

Only in the RPG's version of events... the series clearly and repeatedly indicates 70,000 survivors TOTAL. The RPG's line is a wholly understandable deviation from the facts in order to ensure more narrative diversity. If we're explaining the whys and wherefores of the absence of Zentradi hardware from the Pioneer mission... well... we're gonna end up coming back to the series version for the answers as to why.

sirkermittsg wrote:2. Zentraedi that joined the UEG forces - From Bretai's fleet, Reno's Fleet, Dolza's Fleet and other units not pictured in the shows such as the border fleets: potential Minmei converts were everywhere.

The existence of "border fleets" is, at best, dubious when the only other force of Zentradi we ever see are the ones who protected the factory satellite... a group that was, according to the series, almost annihilated. Dolza's fleet DID end up annihilated, and it seems Breetai's met a similar fate since the largest number of intact Zentradi ships we see anywhere afterwards is 7, in the comics. That number drops to zero before 2022, and we're told that the UEEF/UEDF was using the Zentradi ships for salvage parts in the RTSC official art book.

sirkermittsg wrote:3. Zentraedi and Zentraedi / Human Children - with the zentraedi learning about themselves and their biological capabilities, lots of kids are bound to be born.

Eh... except that both the New Generation and the Shadow Chronicles "movie" clearly indicate that the Zentradi didn't expand their numbers, they were dying out. Scott implies the Zentradi are either extinct or headed that way, and Marcus's first run-in with Maia Sterling in RTSC indicates that both Zentradi and Human-Zentradi hybrids are almost unheard-of circa 2044. Marcus is SHOCKED to find out that one of his fellow pilots is "half-Alien". This ain't like Macross, where there's no shortage of Zentradi and half-Zentradi children running around (the Zentradi being upwards of 50% of Earth's population).

sirkermittsg wrote:4. Cloning chambers

There's that, yes... and I've posited this one before. However, there is the valid point that humanity shouldn't exactly be shocked by the presence of another clone army in the Masters Saga when they'd 1. been using cloning themselves and 2. been at war with a massive clone army less than twenty years previous. Macross did it this way, boosting the ~1 million survivors such that they could afford to carry out extensive space colonization and still shore up the population on Earth.

sirkermittsg wrote:5. Other Human space ships and stations that were not destroyed during the war...starting with the moon base ALUCE and possibly other locations within the Solar System.

As far as we're told, the large resource stations and so on on the moon and elsewhere weren't established until after the first Robotech War ended. Mars Base was abandoned and its population dead to a man. It's very unlikely. Again, if this were Macross we were talking about, you'd be absolutely correct... in that, a big chunk of the surviving population came from bases on the moon, orbital space colonies, and the like.

I don't see humanity being able to fight such huge wars if only 70,000 survived and cloning or zents did not bolster the population in a big way. There were many thousands of troops involved in the battles for earth. Not to mention, most of the macross citizens were probably not going to war for reasons of age and many other reasons

sirkermittsg wrote:the Ajax is not, and was never an aireal superiority fighter. It does not have the speed necessary to fight most aireal targets including the gnerls, drop ships, and other aircraft present on earth or in space after ROD.

They do have non-transformable fighters that fill the Air Superiority role, you know.

I understand the political reasons for not keeping the VF-1's but the VF-1 was far superior as a fighter to the Ajax. The Ajax began life as a transformable helicopter and it sucked eggs as a fighter.

The VF-1 is not the end all, be all despite claims to the contrary. The VF-1 would not be very good doing the kinds of jobs the Ajax did, btw.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:The VF-1 is not the end all, be all despite claims to the contrary. The VF-1 would not be very good doing the kinds of jobs the Ajax did, btw.

I must agree on all counts. I personally prefer the Beta to the VF-1. I like it's bomb bay / mini cargo bay.

As far as a space fighter, the VF-1 was superior. I agree with you that there are things that the Ajax is superior for - most of them involve helicopter type duties. The way I see things, the Valkryie is great for long range strikes with missles.

In Jeffar's game I optimized my Ajax as an in close killer. I added a grenade pod and an MIW-20 pod. I then added switching so that I could run all my weapons in an alpha strike. The Ajax is awesome at hugging the ground and hovering. I also added a Winch so that I could sling / haul small loads and yet fight to some extent with my weapons while doing so. I point out that the Valkyrie's main gun is projectile based, the Ajax's is energy based. So I never had a problem with running out of ammo.

sirkermittsg wrote:I don't see humanity being able to fight such huge wars if only 70,000 survived and cloning or zents did not bolster the population in a big way.

Therein lies one of the bigger plot holes in the Robotech story, my friend. The series was assembled on the fly, and it wasn't exactly expected to stand up to a detailed examination when its sole reasons for being were to promote the original Macross in the US and draw attention to Revell's failing "Robotech" line of models. They went with the 70,000 actual survivors number based on dialogue they'd used earlier in their adaptation of Macross, and confirmed it when the time came to bridge the gap into Southern Cross. They never really set down a concrete timeline during development, so things get a bit wonky thereafter.

It doesn't really conflict with Southern Cross's take on things, since the original was set on a sparsely populated and only recently colonized world, and the military was almost depressingly tiny. (Most of the groups that the RPG presents in its coverage as separate, specialist branches of service are actually individual specialist squads that belong to the regular Tactics Corps, and the α Tactics Armored Corps comprises just 15 squads of tanks total.) It's only when they get to what they adapted from the later portions of MOSPEADA and they start talking about Earth having a total population of a couple million that they run into trouble.

The RPG tends to exaggerate things because it offers more latitude for a self-developed narrative, but also because they (for whatever reason) got a lot of stuff wrong and assumed that the SDF-1's crew of ~20k was representative of a ship that size instead of being massively overcrewed for its first voyage. The wars are actually much smaller than the RPG is prone to making them sound... the bulk, if not the totality, of the UEEF is shown to us in RTSC and doesn't even number above 400 ships. Take out the exaggerations and look at what's actually presented, and the bulk of the UEEF forces is numbering, at most, into the tens of thousands.

sirkermittsg wrote:There were many thousands of troops involved in the battles for earth. Not to mention, most of the macross citizens were probably not going to war for reasons of age and many other reasons

That's debatable... the final battle, the only hive that's shown under siege is Reflex Point, and that doesn't exactly appear like it's being swarmed by troops. Yes, there were thousands of troops committed to retaking Earth IN TOTAL, but that (in RT) was spread out across a decade or so. (According to the RPG, postwar humanity is an almost totally militarized society too, so recruitment is disproportionately large because "soldier" is about the only career there is.)

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:They do have non-transformable fighters that fill the Air Superiority role, you know.

True, but they don't exactly give a good account of themselves in combat... (yes, I know, narrative bias in the show.)

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:The VF-1 is not the end all, be all despite claims to the contrary. The VF-1 would not be very good doing the kinds of jobs the Ajax did, btw.

That's rather debatable... the AGACs is never shown operating in its close air support role, and the VF-1 is an enormously effective, proven space fighter. Of course, one could argue that the VF-1 is the ONLY actual fighter to appear thus far, as the rest are principally presented to us more as ground attack craft intended to provide close air support to infantry and armored units. Based on capability and armament orientation, the Alpha and Beta are basically a giant robot AV-8 Harrier and A-10 Thunderbolt respectively; the AGACs is exactly what it looks like (an attack helicopter), the Logan serves mainly as a high-mobility ground support unit, and the Condor's exactly what MOSPEADA's creators made it to be... a mechanized paratrooper.



EDIT: To elaborate specifically upon why the Alpha and Beta are the AV-8 and A-10 respectively... the Alpha's armament was a collection of short-ranged rockets and an off-center gun, similar to a favorite configuration for the AV-8 using the GAU-12 Equalizer and four LAU-5003 rocket pods. The Beta's a bit more obvious... being that it's built around, OSM-ly, a 30mm center-line rotary cannon and is in the habit of carrying large numbers of incendiary bombs of similar size to the US Mk.77 bomb.

glitterboy2098 wrote:i could see the master's planning a "cylon virus" scenario.. build a kill switch into all the software that trips when the master's send a series of specific signals, so any zent who rebel can be shut down remotely and massacred.

You dn't even have to go so far-- a big advantage the first world has always had over the third world in conflicts is that we largely built their stuff. That means that during the Iraqi conflict, for example, the coalition knew the exact weaknesses of their equipment, down to the frequencies used for tehir radar. Now, for example if zentraedi fire control systems are hard coded (which isn't that unlikely given the fact tha the zentraedi are largely not technologically adapt) the Masters could easily jam/spoof them. The other fears, of imbedded kill switches and stuff may also be playing ar ole, but you really don't have to go beyond: the robotech masters have the detailed blueprints for every zentraedi warmachine and spacecraft.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

sirkermittsg wrote:2. Zentraedi that joined the UEG forces - From Bretai's fleet, Reno's Fleet, Dolza's Fleet and other units not pictured in the shows such as the border fleets: potential Minmei converts were everywhere.

The existence of "border fleets" is, at best, dubious when the only other force of Zentradi we ever see are the ones who protected the factory satellite... a group that was, according to the series, almost annihilated. Dolza's fleet DID end up annihilated, and it seems Breetai's met a similar fate since the largest number of intact Zentradi ships we see anywhere afterwards is 7, in the comics. That number drops to zero before 2022, and we're told that the UEEF/UEDF was using the Zentradi ships for salvage parts in the RTSC official art book.

This is a big part of the problem-- we're told tha the Robotec masters had a vast empire, possibly galaxy spanning, but we only see three fleets and during the sentinals era (though that's now of dubious canon) about a dozen worlds, many of them lightly populated.

The big issue is that if you're talking about the galaxy, or even our Arm, you're not talking a dozen worlds being the only thing you have to secure-- you're talking about something more in scale with the Star Wars setting, or the Warhammer 40K Imperium of man.

Now that works in MAcross, because we DO see that world-- humanity is sending colonization missions out across the galaxy and yet keeps running into stuff, but Robotech fails the scale test-- not surprisingly since the last two parts, Southern Cross and Mospeada were originally confined to a single star system.

sirkermittsg wrote:3. Zentraedi and Zentraedi / Human Children - with the zentraedi learning about themselves and their biological capabilities, lots of kids are bound to be born.

Eh... except that both the New Generation and the Shadow Chronicles "movie" clearly indicate that the Zentradi didn't expand their numbers, they were dying out. Scott implies the Zentradi are either extinct or headed that way, and Marcus's first run-in with Maia Sterling in RTSC indicates that both Zentradi and Human-Zentradi hybrids are almost unheard-of circa 2044. Marcus is SHOCKED to find out that one of his fellow pilots is "half-Alien". This ain't like Macross, where there's no shortage of Zentradi and half-Zentradi children running around (the Zentradi being upwards of 50% of Earth's population).

Have I mentioned how much I hate HG's disgusting decision to make Genocide an integral part of their story line? As much as I like the game, to be honest, if the end of the Shadow Chronicles ended: And all mankind died screaming, humanity would have very little moral reason to protest.

mech798 wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:

sirkermittsg wrote:2. Zentraedi that joined the UEG forces - From Bretai's fleet, Reno's Fleet, Dolza's Fleet and other units not pictured in the shows such as the border fleets: potential Minmei converts were everywhere.

The existence of "border fleets" is, at best, dubious when the only other force of Zentradi we ever see are the ones who protected the factory satellite... a group that was, according to the series, almost annihilated. Dolza's fleet DID end up annihilated, and it seems Breetai's met a similar fate since the largest number of intact Zentradi ships we see anywhere afterwards is 7, in the comics. That number drops to zero before 2022, and we're told that the UEEF/UEDF was using the Zentradi ships for salvage parts in the RTSC official art book.

This is a big part of the problem-- we're told tha the Robotec masters had a vast empire, possibly galaxy spanning, but we only see three fleets and during the sentinals era (though that's now of dubious canon) about a dozen worlds, many of them lightly populated.

The big issue is that if you're talking about the galaxy, or even our Arm, you're not talking a dozen worlds being the only thing you have to secure-- you're talking about something more in scale with the Star Wars setting, or the Warhammer 40K Imperium of man.

Now that works in MAcross, because we DO see that world-- humanity is sending colonization missions out across the galaxy and yet keeps running into stuff, but Robotech fails the scale test-- not surprisingly since the last two parts, Southern Cross and Mospeada were originally confined to a single star system.

sirkermittsg wrote:3. Zentraedi and Zentraedi / Human Children - with the zentraedi learning about themselves and their biological capabilities, lots of kids are bound to be born.

Eh... except that both the New Generation and the Shadow Chronicles "movie" clearly indicate that the Zentradi didn't expand their numbers, they were dying out. Scott implies the Zentradi are either extinct or headed that way, and Marcus's first run-in with Maia Sterling in RTSC indicates that both Zentradi and Human-Zentradi hybrids are almost unheard-of circa 2044. Marcus is SHOCKED to find out that one of his fellow pilots is "half-Alien". This ain't like Macross, where there's no shortage of Zentradi and half-Zentradi children running around (the Zentradi being upwards of 50% of Earth's population).

Have I mentioned how much I hate HG's disgusting decision to make Genocide an integral part of their story line? As much as I like the game, to be honest, if the end of the Shadow Chronicles ended: And all mankind died screaming, humanity would have very little moral reason to protest.

While I agree mostly with what you have said above.....let's keep in mind the majority of the Masters' forces were the Zentraedi whom Dolza marshaled into a one huge amalgamated fleet of 4+ million ships that got wiped out (plus the million Breetai had). For Robotech purposes this explains where the bulk of the Masters' forces disappeared to. Combine that with the lack of Protoculture and them effectively abandoning what was left of their "empire" and you get what showed up at Earth, desperate to attain what PC they could in order to either get away or strike back depending on the amount they manage to acquire.

jaymz wrote:While I agree mostly with what you have said above.....let's keep in mind the majority of the Masters' forces were the Zentraedi whom Dolza marshaled into a one huge amalgamated fleet of 4+ million ships that got wiped out (plus the million Breetai had). For Robotech purposes this explains where the bulk of the Masters' forces disappeared to. Combine that with the lack of Protoculture and them effectively abandoning what was left of their "empire" and you get what showed up at Earth, desperate to attain what PC they could in order to either get away or strike back depending on the amount they manage to acquire.

I don't really care what we are told. I don't see even the destruction of Dolza's fortress as having destroyed the entire fleet. Yes made them ineffectice because they did not have central leadership. In my view, the Earth itself would have shielded some of the fleet from the explosion - but they would have run away. I point out that Kyron had a ship survive the ROD, so I think there were many others that survived and able to be repaired.

I can see the zentraedi fracturing into a bunch of smaller fleets under command of individual warlords. they could easily end up being the pirates of the galaxy.

I can also point out Khyron fled during the battle and his ship was a repaired ship that crashed to earth NOT the ship he actually had originally. You can not care what we are told all you like BUT the show is the show. Anything else is fanfic not what actually happened.

mech798 wrote:This is a big part of the problem-- we're told tha the Robotec masters had a vast empire, possibly galaxy spanning, but we only see three fleets and during the sentinals era (though that's now of dubious canon) about a dozen worlds, many of them lightly populated.

We're told that they had a vast empire... but how many empires can we point to that have had nominal control over vast swathes of terrain nobody was actually inhabiting? (Historical fun fact: "Pretty much all of them".) The stuff that they'd decided on for Sentinels languishes in that Schrodinger's canon state between "it never happened" and "it happened, but it didn't happen that way", so all bets are really off there. Plus their empire was supposedly in a state of collapse, so not seeing a huge empire is not altogether surprising.

mech798 wrote:The big issue is that if you're talking about the galaxy, or even our Arm, you're not talking a dozen worlds being the only thing you have to secure-- you're talking about something more in scale with the Star Wars setting, or the Warhammer 40K Imperium of man.

Robotech, as a setting, is geographically very large but narratively very small. It suffers a more extreme version of Star Wars's ailment, where there are only a few worlds in the galaxy that actually matter... in this case, Earth, Tirol, and to a lesser extent, Optera. We never see any colony worlds, and honestly we're never given any kind of evidence of humanity ever launching a colony mission... we're only told that early colony ships were mothballed and all but one of the later ones got blown up before they were even finished building 'em. It's a tiny setting.

mech798 wrote:Now that works in MAcross, because we DO see that world-- humanity is sending colonization missions out across the galaxy and yet keeps running into stuff, but Robotech fails the scale test-- not surprisingly since the last two parts, Southern Cross and Mospeada were originally confined to a single star system.

Macross is just on a correspondingly bigger scale... you had a million survivors instead of just seventy thousands, with entirely intact offworld settlements, and aid in reconstruction from nearly a thousand Zentradi ships and something like two dozen captured factory satellites. Humanity actually understands the technology it uses, and they exploit it to make such massive, sweeping expansions of scale like 155+ colony fleets of varying size possible.

To be entirely accurate, though, Southern Cross was not confined to a single star system... the "returning" forces the Robotech version made into Pioneer Mission reinforcements were actually reinforcements from Liberte, another one of the worlds colonized after Earth went all Fist of the North Star.

mech798 wrote:Have I mentioned how much I hate HG's disgusting decision to make Genocide an integral part of their story line? As much as I like the game, to be honest, if the end of the Shadow Chronicles ended: And all mankind died screaming, humanity would have very little moral reason to protest.

To be entirely fair, they didn't have a lot of choice in that.

All three original shows featured, either explicitly or implicitly, a genocide on some scale or other. The original Macross had humanity's near-total annihilation at the hands of the Zentradi 118th Main Fleet, MOSPEADA had the defenders of Earth and two failed Earth Recapture operations conducted by the colonies in the outer solar system get massacred by the Inbit (never mind the human-on-human civil wars that made Colonel Johnson famous), and Southern Cross had Earth's population nearly wiped out and forced to abandon the planet by unrestricted nuclear warfare and ended the series with a definitive loss for humanity as the Zor annihilate much of Glorie's population and the rest are turned into Zor thanks to the protozor being scattered all over Glorie.

Implicit genocide was necessary in Robotech for copyright reasons, to get around the fact that there wasn't exactly overlap between the shows. The Robotech Masters and Zentradi HAD to vanish, because there was no way to include 'em in the show on a going-forward basis due to the fact that they didn't own the material.

To me, Robotech evokes shades of Warhammer 40,000... what with Prelude's decision to draw a line under humanity's near-universal and, as of RTSC, entirely justified "You can't trust the xenos" attitude, which would make a jaded commissar shed a single tear of pride.

sirkermittsg wrote:I don't really care what we are told. I don't see even the destruction of Dolza's fortress as having destroyed the entire fleet.

We're told a detonation destroyed ~4 million... but what about the ships destroyed by the Grand Cannon? People always forget to count those... and per the OSM, nearly a million ships bit the big one when that big gun went off.

sirkermittsg wrote:I can see the zentraedi fracturing into a bunch of smaller fleets under command of individual warlords. they could easily end up being the pirates of the galaxy.

Minus the pirates part, you're basically back in Macross territory again. In that version of events, the grand cannon wiped out about a million ships, and by the time all was said and done, the 118th Main Fleet's losses numbered about 1.8 million ships total, leaving 3 million ships to leg it elsewhere per prevailing tactical doctrine. Humanity was left with around 1,000 ships, namely those of Britai and his subordinate commanders (minus attrition).

As jaymz pointed out though, Kamjin's ship from the finale was not the same ship he'd had originally... he originally possessed a Queadol Magdomilla-class command battleship, and later salvaged a gun destroyer that had come down almost intact for his final offensive.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Robotech, as a setting, is geographically very large but narratively very small. It suffers a more extreme version of Star Wars's ailment, where there are only a few worlds in the galaxy that actually matter... in this case, Earth, Tirol, and to a lesser extent, Optera. We never see any colony worlds, and honestly we're never given any kind of evidence of humanity ever launching a colony mission... we're only told that early colony ships were mothballed and all but one of the later ones got blown up before they were even finished building 'em. It's a tiny setting.

A bit of a tangent, but a really neat part about the Clone Wars CGI series was how completely it suberted the "Small galaxy" concept-- not only was the Galaxy huge, it was shown to be so with entire plotlines that didn't involve large parts of hte main cast, presumably because they were off a thousand light years in the other direction doing something equally important.

Seto wrote:. Plus their empire was supposedly in a state of collapse, so not seeing a huge empire is not altogether surprising.

Their empire may already have collapsed, at least the empire that created the Zentraedi. (Ep31 Gloval: "...and so the great Robotech civilization collapsed caught in the cross fire of the fighting giants they had created and those giants evolved into the Zentraedi")

Seto wrote:We never see any colony worlds, and honestly we're never given any kind of evidence of humanity ever launching a colony mission...

Maybe, maybe not. There are still sequences in NG (Ep61, Scott's flashback on Wolfe) that could be seen as pointing to colony installations (OSM wise that is Mars, but in Robotech they could be "viewed" as extra-solar).

seto wrote:The Robotech Masters and Zentradi HAD to vanish, because there was no way to include 'em in the show on a going-forward basis due to the fact that they didn't own the material.

On some levels that HAD to vanish. They could have kept them around by "recasting" characters in NG/TRM to be alien if they wanted to. It could be more easily done for the Masters, but even the Zentraedi had examples that could pass w/o notice (Miryia, Azonia) if micronized. I would also point out that the Masters citizenry DID return in Sent. OVA. They could also give them new hardware designs to use instead of the static state.

Sirkermittsg wrote:I can see the zentraedi fracturing into a bunch of smaller fleets under command of individual warlords. they could easily end up being the pirates of the galaxy.

Not likely. The Zentraedi as a whole, NEEDED Earth's Protoculture (Breetai flatout states it to Azonia). Even Khyron could not flee the Solar System due to Protoculture levels in FoA. The ship he recovered by Ep35 was in need of Protoculture. So there could be a bunch of ships available, but not enough fuel for them to operate/mobile. Pretty hard to be a pirate, when your transportation doesn't work.

The interesting thing is the Master's were completely sure the SDF-1 could have taken out all 5 Million ships on its own...

Gryphon wrote:That bit of plot exposition annoys the crap out of me. If they could make that sort of supposition, how did they ever lose their empire in the first place?! What, no one saw a sliver of a chance Zor or the Matrix might get mislaid of something, they sure as heck jumped in on the loss of the entire freaking armada, that's for sure!

I think they thought the inept Zentradie might have been able to find the ship quickly and not lose their entire armada doing it... the ship was only lost for 500,000 years......

Col. Wolfe wrote:The interesting thing is the Master's were completely sure the SDF-1 could have taken out all 5 Million ships on its own...

While they don't discount it, they peg it as nearly impossible. But to do so they would (apparently) need to know as much about that Robotech Ship AS they do in order to invert the Robotech Barrier.

Ep29.
Master3: But one ship agains four million most unlikely nearly impossible
Master1: If they could invert the Robotech Barrier system an overload could possibly destroy Dolza's entire fleet
Master3: In order to do that Zor's Disciples would have to know as much about that Robotech ship as we

Col. Wolfe wrote: the ship was only lost for 500,000 years......

Are we sure the SDF-1 was actually lost that long ago? While indications are that the Robotech Civilization is 500k years old, and Zor is the first Master. I don't recall any actual indication on when the SDF-1 itself was lost, or when Zor died. They could both be more recent events.

Gryhpon wrote:That bit of plot exposition annoys the crap out of me. If they could make that sort of supposition, how did they ever lose their empire in the first place?! What, no one saw a sliver of a chance Zor or the Matrix might get mislaid of something, they sure as heck jumped in on the loss of the entire freaking armada, that's for sure!

See above. Basically they see it as a remote possibility. It may also be that they actually had more than one Matrix/Factory to support their empire.

Gryphon - Heh you did what I did....used info from uRRG on some ships and other info in regards to fleets..... I even used the uRRG numbers for the fleet departure and make up with my own additions as well.

on the numbers of zentraedi ships around, Genesis Pits refers to perhaps "thousands" of stranded and cut off zentraedi ships-- which gives an upper level on the number of warships that may be around-- pretty tiny by the standards of the galaxy, but more than big enough to be a major problem for anyone who runs into even a few zentraedi warships.

Gryphon wrote:That bit of plot exposition annoys the crap out of me. If they could make that sort of supposition, how did they ever lose their empire in the first place?! What, no one saw a sliver of a chance Zor or the Matrix might get mislaid of something, they sure as heck jumped in on the loss of the entire freaking armada, that's for sure!

's easily enough explained... at least, from a production standpoint. They were adapting the dialogue of Macross on the fly, so the empire of the Robotech Masters collapsed in the Robotech version because the Stellar Republic of the ancient Protoculture collapsed in the Macross version.

The difference presumably being that the Robotech Masters civilization collapsed due to a feud between the Disciples of Zor and the Robotech Masters, instead of simply falling apart because of a civil war that ended in mutually-assured destruction.