Population's in Robotech

[ShadowLogan]

The moon doesn't have the gravity or magnetic field to maintain an atmosphere.

The Moon does have an atmosphere (very thin, and tenuous). It's been described as one of astronomy's best kept secrets.

http://www.nasa.gov/ames/nasa-extends-m ... e-mission/
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LADEE ... phere.html
http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/fa ... nfact.html
http://www.tsgc.utexas.edu/tadp/1995/sp ... nment.html

The addition of exhaust from all those ships and the surface facility(s) can pollute the lunar atmosphere, and if it develops sufficient mass could shield itself from the ionization effect of the sunlight. That means the atmosphere could then thicken. That statement is based on an article (a side-article w/n really) that appeared in "Astronomy" Magazine November 1993 pg36-41 "Where the Lunar Winds Blow Free" by Alan Stern. I still have the magazine issue.

Terraforming the Moon unintentionally is clearly possible based on the above article. The result wouldn't be earth-like, but it will result in a change in the environment, which at a basic level is what terraforming is about.

Yeah, but I doubt "as massive as Mars" trips off the tongue as gracefully as "as vast as Venus".

"as massive as Mars" doesn't make any sense for the context of the scene, but "as vast as Mars" would.

Yep... though as far as they knew, given their encounters with the Invid, most of the naturally inhabitable worlds appear to fall under the category of "contested".

The thing is, the colonization directive seems to pre-date contact with the Invid so Colony ships would naturally pre-date contact with the Invid to in their design (N-S class) and be based on anything the Zentraedi can provide (along w/o early recon expeditions as we see some 20ly from Earth in Ep31, even the RT.com timeline says "2016-Preliminary navigational surveys are conducted with long-range advance scout vessels, laying the groundwork for the main Robotech Expeditionary Force.").

The known sample size also seems to consist of almost 100% of Zentradi in this period too...

Based on what? If Zentraedi are able to blend in to such an extent that it requires a blunt statement, we can't be sure if the sample size is the actual sample size.

That they don't LOOK overtly alien, and that Marcus gives voice to such, suggests that most Zentradi look distinctly non-human and that it's assumed (ignorantly) that a hybrid should be visibly alien as well. That Maia doesn't LOOK alien is a profound shock to Marcus, and if they were as common as you suggest, Marcus should know better.

Marcus should know better is the problem. It wasn't some secret 15years previously concerning Dana's heritage in the ASC, so why should Mia's be in the current period for the UEEF? And Marcus should also know that there are "aliens", who look human given the Tirolians, (can in this case) Zentraedi, and Praxians (Sentinel). So human-on-alien offspring in those cases should yield up a "normal" looking individual.

Even the 2E RPG says that "Micronized Zentraedi (most look human)" (TSC pg67m, under the Race table). This runs counter to the idea that Zentraedi look are all distinctly non-human in appearance, they back track a bit in the NG SB as the population seems to gravitate toward mauve skin tones (not exclusively). NG SB (pg15) states there is an increasing population of Zent/Human (and Tirolian/Humans).

If the Sterlings are the only ones, or part of a very small group, it would be that much easier for them to keep it quiet... though since Maia seems proud of her alien heritage, it doesn't appear a hybrid is under any pressure to present themselves as being "just human".

The Sterlings being the 1st inter-species couple, and producing off-spring would be harder to keep quiet than less publicized pairings and any off spring they have. The Sterlings had a televised wedding that was on par with a royal wedding, not two people getting hitched in Vegas.

[Seto Kaiba]

The addition of exhaust from all those ships and the surface facility(s) can pollute the lunar atmosphere, and if it develops sufficient mass could shield itself from the ionization effect of the sunlight.

Assuming the exhaust is something that can even cause that effect... the UEEF fleet is tiny, and their surface bases fairly minimal. I doubt this could happen.

The thing is, the colonization directive seems to pre-date contact with the Invid so Colony ships would naturally pre-date contact with the Invid to in their design (N-S class) and be based on anything the Zentraedi can provide (along w/o early recon expeditions as we see some 20ly from Earth in Ep31, even the RT.com timeline says "2016-Preliminary navigational surveys are conducted with long-range advance scout vessels, laying the groundwork for the main Robotech Expeditionary Force.").

It's not known when first contact with the Invid was made, but it seems to have been almost right after the fleet left Earth in the old material... so it's still entirely possible that the colony directive was quietly put on the back burner and never acted upon. Something as large as an Angel-class ship isn't built overnight, and we're also told that hostilities in space rendered the EARLY colonization efforts too dangerous... so that seems like a fair indicator of the non-viability of colonization outside the solar system.

Based on what? If Zentraedi are able to blend in to such an extent that it requires a blunt statement, we can't be sure if the sample size is the actual sample size.

There's no requirement for a blunt statement in canon, because Prelude shows us that most of the Zentradi stick out like a sore thumb, and the series strongly implies that the Zentradi went functionally extinct by 2042, so the small number we see with the Expeditionary Forces are, in all likelihood, the few remaining Zentradi.

The RPG obviously takes a different tack, because it's trying to diversify options for players.

Marcus should know better is the problem. It wasn't some secret 15years previously concerning Dana's heritage in the ASC, so why should Mia's be in the current period for the UEEF?

So, if it's NOT a secret that hybrids are possible... what could lead Marcus to be surprised that Maia is part-alien? Logically, that hybrids are obscenely rare, and therefore he would have no reason to suspect that anyone around him is one.

And Marcus should also know that there are "aliens", who look human given the Tirolians, (can in this case) Zentraedi, and Praxians (Sentinel). So human-on-alien offspring in those cases should yield up a "normal" looking individual.

Unless, of course, the subtle differences that set one apart as an alien aren't rendered as an obvious touch in the art. It may also be that Marcus has never seen a Tirolian, since there's only the pair of them on the Sentinels Council and none in the UEEF itself (per canon), which would be WAAAAAAAY above Marcus's head. (Even then, most Tirolians in the series do look pretty obviously alien...)

Even the 2E RPG says that "Micronized Zentraedi (most look human)" (TSC pg67m, under the Race table). [...]

Let's just insert a form letter response about the RPG taking liberties with the material and say no more about it, because the RPG does significantly deviate from the official material on all of the fronts you mention.

[ShadowLogan]

Assuming the exhaust is something that can even cause that effect... the UEEF fleet is tiny, and their surface bases fairly minimal. I doubt this could happen.

It will definatly "pollute" what little atmospheric gases there are. The main question is how much exhaust gas is being releasted per day (average) by the lunar facilities (plural, according to ALUCE description in AotSC) and forces deploying there and how those gases would be characterized w/n the original study mentioned in the article.

It's not known when first contact with the Invid was made, but it seems to have been almost right after the fleet left Earth in the old material... so it's still entirely possible that the colony directive was quietly put on the back burner and never acted upon. Something as large as an Angel-class ship isn't built overnight, and we're also told that hostilities in space rendered the EARLY colonization efforts too dangerous... so that seems like a fair indicator of the non-viability of colonization outside the solar system.

Agree we don't know when the Invid contact was made. However, Leonard was unaware of the group in 2029/30 so that at least puts some idea of when contact occurred (unless the UEEF was holding information back about them from the UEDF, and we know the UEEF did hold information back apparently). Then there is Dana's "psychic" warning from her other sister in 2030 about the Invid, though weather it was actually a message from her family or just an artifact of her own mind could be debated on end.

The UEEF did have options to continue using those Angel class colony ships as they could have changed their colonization approach from what is seen in Macross (roaming fleets) to Star Trek (scout ships then send in colonists later), or even retro-fit those same ships.

There's no requirement for a blunt statement in canon, because Prelude shows us that most of the Zentradi stick out like a sore thumb, and the series strongly implies that the Zentradi went functionally extinct by 2042, so the small number we see with the Expeditionary Forces are, in all likelihood, the few remaining Zentradi.

Yes actually there would be. We know the are Zentraedi don't automatically stick out like a sore thumb in the larger context of Robotech.

While the Zentraedi aren't in the same numbers they had in 2009 (pre-contact), they can contribute significant numbers to the base population visually and we'd never know it without some reference (dialogue/insignia).

So, if it's NOT a secret that hybrids are possible... what could lead Marcus to be surprised that Maia is part-alien? Logically, that hybrids are obscenely rare, and therefore he would have no reason to suspect that anyone around him is one.

Her family name alone should logically given it is connected another hybrid that she might be part alien. That hybrids aren't a secret either should be able to give Marus an idea of the range they appear in.

Unless, of course, the subtle differences that set one apart as an alien aren't rendered as an obvious touch in the art. It may also be that Marcus has never seen a Tirolian, since there's only the pair of them on the Sentinels Council and none in the UEEF itself (per canon), which would be WAAAAAAAY above Marcus's head. (Even then, most Tirolians in the series do look pretty obviously alien...)

While it is possible Marcus hasn't seen a Tirolian (or other aliens) in person, i think it would be odd for his education to skip over it given their historical relevance.

There is no way the Tirolians can look obviously alien since genetically they are said to be identical to humans. What ever you think makes them "obviously alien" isn't something that exists biologically, but rather some cultural/social aspect.

[Seto Kaiba]

Agree we don't know when the Invid contact was made. However, Leonard was unaware of the group in 2029/30 so that at least puts some idea of when contact occurred (unless the UEEF was holding information back about them from the UEDF, and we know the UEEF did hold information back apparently). [...]

Now, both the RPG and the older Robotech materials both suggest that first contact with the Invid actually occurred pretty swiftly after the expedition left for Tirol, and that they were in a state of open hostilities with the Invid for decades by 2044. It seems reasonable to assume that the UEDF was given a somewhat less-than-complete picture of the situation that the UEEF was in. They knew enough to declare efforts to colonize planets outside of the solar system too dangerous to proceed and scrub the project.

Then there is Dana's "psychic" warning from her other sister in 2030 about the Invid, though weather it was actually a message from her family or just an artifact of her own mind could be debated on end.

Unless Tommy has reversed himself on that matter, "Aurora" is just a hallucination induced by contact with the flowers of life... but even if it was legitimate, it's not like the UEDF was in a habit of listening to anything Dana had to say. (Their attitude towards her for much of what was shown in the series was an entirely-understandable "Ignore the flake"."

The UEEF did have options to continue using those Angel class colony ships as they could have changed their colonization approach from what is seen in Macross (roaming fleets) to Star Trek (scout ships then send in colonists later), or even retro-fit those same ships.

Well, in theory they had other options... but it seems like, with their forces committed to the war with the Regent and the defense of Earth, they didn't have the forces to spare to let them launch the indefensible Angel-class ships with a suitably large escort fleet. (RTSC shows that the greater portion, if not the totality, of the UEEF wasn't quite 400 ships... most being lightly armed to the point of being ineffectual.)

Yes actually there would be. We know the are Zentraedi don't automatically stick out like a sore thumb in the larger context of Robotech.

But we also know that the Zentradi are effectively extinct in the larger context of the series, because Scott indicates as much... so whether or not an extinct people would have stuck out in a crowd is kind of a moot point. The few who still exist a year after that remark definitely DO stick out in a crowd (by dint of being eight foot tall and powder blue).

While the Zentraedi aren't in the same numbers they had in 2009 (pre-contact), they can contribute significant numbers to the base population visually and we'd never know it without some reference (dialogue/insignia).

Except, of course, for all indications being that aliens living among humans is unheard-of, and aliens themselves in human society being extremely rare.

Her family name alone should logically given it is connected another hybrid that she might be part alien.

Unless, of course, the Sterling family name isn't as notorious as the Jenius family name is back in the Macross universe(s). Max did, after all, get overshadowed by Rick pretty hard for Robotech's postwar events. Not like Macross, where Max and Milia go on to be big damn heroes over and over again, have seven kids, and rack up a list of achievements which would leave most of history's greatest aces feeling a little inadequate.

That hybrids aren't a secret either should be able to give Marus an idea of the range they appear in.

Unless, again, human-alien intermarriage is beyond rare and therefore hybrids are unheard of in human society...

While it is possible Marcus hasn't seen a Tirolian (or other aliens) in person, i think it would be odd for his education to skip over it given their historical relevance.

Considering Robotech's "United Earth" Government is pretty heavy on the propaganda and seems to have its fair share of complete monsters in the top brass, it wouldn't surprise me if a concerted effort had been made, in-universe, to minimize the importance of aliens in accounts of the war. It's also possible that more than one family exists with the surname "Sterling" and/or that Maia's birth wasn't publicized.

There is no way the Tirolians can look obviously alien since genetically they are said to be identical to humans. What ever you think makes them "obviously alien" isn't something that exists biologically, but rather some cultural/social aspect.

Explain the lilac skin and such that we see on many of the Masters then? Or that weird auto-tune voice effect they have.

[ShadowLogan]

Well, in theory they had other options... but it seems like, with their forces committed to the war with the Regent and the defense of Earth, they didn't have the forces to spare to let them launch the indefensible Angel-class ships with a suitably large escort fleet. (RTSC shows that the greater portion, if not the totality, of the UEEF wasn't quite 400 ships... most being lightly armed to the point of being ineffectual.)

The entire UEEF colonization approach doesn't make much sense. If the UEEF doesn't have the resources to protect an Angel-class vessel, how can they be expected to do the same with the Ark Angel-class? Given they still have to use mecha and other resources to properly support the Ark Angel-class.

But we also know that the Zentradi are effectively extinct in the larger context of the series, because Scott indicates as much... so whether or not an extinct people would have stuck out in a crowd is kind of a moot point. The few who still exist a year after that remark definitely DO stick out in a crowd (by dint of being eight foot tall and powder blue).

I disagree, if the larger Zentreadi population is a mixed bag in 2013 in terms of micronized human-likeness, then it stands to reason that that same basic ratio should still apply in 2044, unless those that standout have some advantage over those that don't (and nothing indicates they do in general given Exedore), which means we still have a population of undeclareds that can be present.

Except, of course, for all indications being that aliens living among humans is unheard-of, and aliens themselves in human society being extremely rare.

In 2013 though it isn't unheard or rare at the community level. Further down at the family level it really isn't clear outside Max and Miryia by this point.

Unless, of course, the Sterling family name isn't as notorious as the Jenius family name is back in the Macross universe(s).

Col. Fredrick's reference to Max and Miryia Sterling to Dana suggest that it is (Ep38, "Dana the daughter of Miryia and Max Sterling well I don't care who your parents where you are a disgrace").

Unless, again, human-alien intermarriage is beyond rare and therefore hybrids are unheard of in human society...

Unlikely IMHO. Where there is 1 there is the possibility of more in terms of relationships.

Considering Robotech's "United Earth" Government is pretty heavy on the propaganda and seems to have its fair share of complete monsters in the top brass, it wouldn't surprise me if a concerted effort had been made, in-universe, to minimize the importance of aliens in accounts of the war. It's also possible that more than one family exists with the surname "Sterling" and/or that Maia's birth wasn't publicized.

Positive alien contributions in the war likely can be minimized to some extent, but they can't escape the fact that three wars have been fought at Earth involving aliens (by 2042). It also stands to reason the brass would want their soldiers able to identify aliens IF they know that some are human-like to escape casual notice.

As for Family name. Mia's birth doesn't really need to be as publicized as Dana's due to her family name. Yes Sterling can refer to other families as opposed to just Max-Miryia, but meeting any "Sterling" outside of a certain (obvious) age and ethnicity could logically have a high probability of being half-alien w/o knowing more about said individuals family (parents) before hand.

Explain the lilac skin and such that we see on many of the Masters then? Or that weird auto-tune voice effect they have.

Their voice seems to be more of a learned thing (Zor Prime) and is something that can be masked given Zor Primes voice as a Bioroid pilot to rogue/15th member. While it would standout, its no different than an accent IMHO pointing toward social/cultural aspect.

Their lilac skin (even Zentraedi odd tones) could be evidence of Argyria/argyrosis, which can occur in humans and result in developing blue/blueish-gray skin. Diet can also effect skin pigmentation (carrots can result in orange skin tone, no reason Tirolian diet could not include something similar).

[glitterboy2098]

actually the first time we hear the voice reverb, its in earth atmosphere.

given most of the times its used, i'd say it represents some sort of translating technology.. though i'm not 100% on that.

[Seto Kaiba]

The entire UEEF colonization approach doesn't make much sense. If the UEEF doesn't have the resources to protect an Angel-class vessel, how can they be expected to do the same with the Ark Angel-class?

It may help that, unlike the old Angel-class, the Ark Angel-class was armed to the proverbial teeth. IIRC, don't they describe it as having firepower comparable to an SDF? It's certainly got more guns than the SDF-3, and fighter-carrying capacity to rival one. It seems more like the ship's ability to actually defend itself (literally, the ship's own fighting ability, by itself, rather than the defensive abilities by proxy through an escort fleet).

I disagree, if the larger Zentreadi population is a mixed bag in 2013 in terms of micronized human-likeness, then it stands to reason that that same basic ratio should still apply in 2044, [...]

Except, of course, that apart from the RPG using that in its heavily deviating take on things... there is no evidence to actually support that view, and both Scott and Marcus's attitude does point strongly to human society containing few, if any, aliens.

In 2013 though it isn't unheard or rare at the community level. Further down at the family level it really isn't clear outside Max and Miryia by this point.

Yeah, but that's before Khyron's little revolt... where Harmony Gold seems to suggest that the majority of the Zentradi population on Earth died, and the rest buggered off with the SDF-3 to die fighting the Regent.

Col. Fredrick's reference to Max and Miryia Sterling to Dana suggest that it is (Ep38, "Dana the daughter of Miryia and Max Sterling well I don't care who your parents where you are a disgrace").

It's possible Colonel Fredericks is simply a friend of the Sterlings... he ranks pretty high, so he probably was a veteran or at least a kid aboard the SDF-1.

Unlikely IMHO. Where there is 1 there is the possibility of more in terms of relationships.

Possibility doesn't equal eventuality. I mean, it's possible that Tommy will resolve this with a logical answer... but it ain't very likely.

Positive alien contributions in the war likely can be minimized to some extent, but they can't escape the fact that three wars have been fought at Earth involving aliens (by 2042).

Yeah... hence the very heavy anti-alien biases evident in the Shadow Chronicles story.

As for Family name. Mia's birth doesn't really need to be as publicized as Dana's due to her family name. Yes Sterling can refer to other families as opposed to just Max-Miryia, but meeting any "Sterling" outside of a certain (obvious) age and ethnicity could logically have a high probability of being half-alien w/o knowing more about said individuals family (parents) before hand.

Unless, again, Max and Miriya aren't nearly as well-publicized as their Macross counterparts.

[Seto Kaiba]

As for noting/concealing a hybrid, the females tend to be more normal toned than most, and some of the males were as well. The OSM might look at it differently, but Robotech seems to be saying that many Zentraedi AREN'T that different from a human really.

Er... no, sorry. Macross states that the Zentradi, while occasionally possessing physical traits that would make them stand out in a crowd (e.g. green skin, pointed ears) generally are perfectly indistinguishable from baseline humanity... especially hybrids. The reason is that the humans and Zentradi were both designer organisms created (or retro-virally re-engineered) by the Protoculture based on their own genome. That's why, for most of Macross you can't tell a human-Zentradi hybrid apart from a baseline human... and will usually only find out if and when they pipe up about their heritage (e.g. Sylvie Geena in Macross II, Ranka Lee from Macross Frontier). Then again, there are the occasional few who do evidence traits the average human would immediately pick out as alien, like Ranka's prehensile hair... but they're low-key enough to slip past unnoticed in casual life.

Robotech, as of the Shadow Chronicles prelude comic, has retroactively made the Zentradi into a race of eight-foot-tall, powder blue giants who are immediately obvious as an alien at fifty paces... apparently demoting human-like Zentradi to a minority in the process... though it's unlikely we'll ever know if Miriya is now blue, thanks to the legal issues surrounding using Macross IP. IIRC, Robotech also tried to spin the genetic similarity between humans and the Zentradi as coincidental rather than intentional.

[ShadowLogan]

It may help that, unlike the old Angel-class, the Ark Angel-class was armed to the proverbial teeth. IIRC, don't they describe it as having firepower comparable to an SDF? It's certainly got more guns than the SDF-3, and fighter-carrying capacity to rival one. It seems more like the ship's ability to actually defend itself (literally, the ship's own fighting ability, by itself, rather than the defensive abilities by proxy through an escort fleet).

No it doesn't help that the new Ark Angel-class is armed to the teeth. If they can't afford the resources to protect an Angel-class, its doubtful they have the resources to really protect an Ark-Angel-class any better. There is more to defense of the ships than emplaced weapons, they do still have to put fighters and other deploy-able resources on board, not to mention manpower.

Except, of course, that apart from the RPG using that in its heavily deviating take on things... there is no evidence to actually support that view, and both Scott and Marcus's attitude does point strongly to human society containing few, if any, aliens.

I'm not basing that statement on the RPG, but the series itself. Scott and Marcus attitude may actually point to a lack of noticeable aliens unless everyone goes around discussing their family history and such.

Yeah, but that's before Khyron's little revolt... where Harmony Gold seems to suggest that the majority of the Zentradi population on Earth died, and the rest buggered off with the SDF-3 to die fighting the Regent.

Agree, but if they are with the SDF-3 then the Scott and Marcus's attitudes don't make much sense as even by 2042 there is still a noticeable Zentraedi presence w/n the UEEF.

IINM though, the bulk of Khryon's revolt consisted of male Zentreadi (aside from Azonia, and a "wing" of FPAs), who display the biggest variety in skin tones vs the females who are without exception (AFAIK) shown to be "normal". So female Zentraedi (and their offspring) may better blend in than males.

It's possible Colonel Fredericks is simply a friend of the Sterlings... he ranks pretty high, so he probably was a veteran or at least a kid aboard the SDF-1.

Possible, but there is no way to be sure if he was a friend of the Sterlings or not, unlike Emerson and Grant.

Possibility doesn't equal eventuality. I mean, it's possible that Tommy will resolve this with a logical answer... but it ain't very likely.

True, but it is still a possibility which is about the only thing we can list at this point: the possibilities.

Unless, again, Max and Miriya aren't nearly as well-publicized as their Macross counterparts.

I don't see how that can be given Col. Fredricks remark, and the televised "Royal" Wedding. Plus Rick's statement "There's more than one Sterling who can lead the Skull Squadron..." in Prelude. Hunter and Wolfe are the two main "heroes" of the UEEF given cues from Scott, but they can't be the only ones.

[Seto Kaiba]

No it doesn't help that the new Ark Angel-class is armed to the teeth. If they can't afford the resources to protect an Angel-class, its doubtful they have the resources to really protect an Ark-Angel-class any better.

Unless improvements in technology blah blah blah... you get the picture.

There is more to defense of the ships than emplaced weapons, they do still have to put fighters and other deploy-able resources on board, not to mention manpower.

True, but the Ark Angel-class appears to have 1. been designed for deployment after the conclusion of the liberation of Earth, 2. (massively) increased emplaced weapons as its primary stated improvement over the older Angel-class, 3. potent enough systems that the ship's minimum necessary crew is apparently only a few dozen.

I'm not basing that statement on the RPG, but the series itself. Scott and Marcus attitude may actually point to a lack of noticeable aliens unless everyone goes around discussing their family history and such.

That's one possibility... but it seems rather unlikely that this new generation of soldiers, who'd been born in space and for whom the existence of aliens was a day-to-day fact of life, would somehow be completely ignorant of a large hybrid population among them... especially when a Zentradi that DOESN'T look conspicuous appears to be somewhat rare in the UEEF. (At least, per Prelude... Zentradi are completely absent from RTSC.)

Agree, but if they are with the SDF-3 then the Scott and Marcus's attitudes don't make much sense as even by 2042 there is still a noticeable Zentraedi presence w/n the UEEF.

Noticeable? I don't know about that... there are a few Zentradi involved in the UEEF at VERY high levels, far above Marcus and Alex's modest authority, but the sum total of Breetai's UEEF Zentradi forces by the 2040s appears to be just a few dozen individuals total. If we were to accept the official stats crew numbers, that's a few dozen Zentradi in a fleet with hundreds of thousands of crew... easy to lose a needle in a haystack that size.

IINM though, the bulk of Khryon's revolt consisted of male Zentreadi (aside from Azonia, and a "wing" of FPAs), who display the biggest variety in skin tones vs the females who are without exception (AFAIK) shown to be "normal". So female Zentraedi (and their offspring) may better blend in than males.

Unless, of course, that has changed per Prelude (we don't know) or the number of the female Zentradi who survived the revolt (since they were such a small minority) was too low for the number who survived to reproduce with non-Zentradi mates to be more than negligible... thus jiving perfectly with Scott's implication that the Zentradi are extinct or at least nearly so, and Marcus's surprise at finding an alien among his fellows.

Unless, again, Max and Miriya aren't nearly as well-publicized as their Macross counterparts.

I don't see how that can be given Col. Fredricks remark, and the televised "Royal" Wedding. [/quote]
How quickly do people forget celebrity weddings in modern culture? Pretty darn fast. If Max was overshadowed in the postwar political and military game, then he might enjoy some relative obscurity... especially since Rick seems to be the one man everyone knows (whereas in the original his historical impact bordered on "Nonentity" after the war).

Plus Rick's statement "There's more than one Sterling who can lead the Skull Squadron..." in Prelude. Hunter and Wolfe are the two main "heroes" of the UEEF given cues from Scott, but they can't be the only ones.

Doesn't that sort of point to exactly what I was saying, though... that Max was overshadowed by Rick?

[ShadowLogan]

Unless improvements in technology blah blah blah... you get the picture.

The problem with that angle is that if technology has improved, then the AA-class shouldn't be necessary.

True, but the Ark Angel-class appears to have 1. been designed for deployment after the conclusion of the liberation of Earth, 2. (massively) increased emplaced weapons as its primary stated improvement over the older Angel-class, 3. potent enough systems that the ship's minimum necessary crew is apparently only a few dozen.

Pt 1. If it was designed for deployment after liberation of Earth, and the Invid are the reason the AA-class is around in the first place then they could simply return to the A/nS-class if the Invid are no longer expected to be around after LoE.

Pt 2. Isn't the older Angel-class unarmed though? Putting even a few emplaced AA turrets would be an improvement.

Pt 3. The systems may be potent in that sense, but then again Grant really only needed the ship to run, not fight which probably brings the crew requirement down. Time may also be a factor, it may be possible to run the ship with a reduced crew for a little bit, but on a sustained basis it may not be a good idea.

That's one possibility... but it seems rather unlikely that this new generation of soldiers, who'd been born in space and for whom the existence of aliens was a day-to-day fact of life, would somehow be completely ignorant of a large hybrid population among them... especially when a Zentradi that DOESN'T look conspicuous appears to be somewhat rare in the UEEF. (At least, per Prelude... Zentradi are completely absent from RTSC.)

The are several problems with this anti-view though:
-it assumes all Zentraedi stand-out, when we know that is not the case (order of canon)
-it assumes all 1/2-breeds stand out, when we know that is not the case w/the known population from the Sterlings
-it assumes the population at large discusses their family tree/history/ethnic background
-there are aliens among them (and known to exist) that can pass for regular human, even humans with certain disorders

Noticeable? I don't know about that... there are a few Zentradi involved in the UEEF at VERY high levels, far above Marcus and Alex's modest authority, but the sum total of Breetai's UEEF Zentradi forces by the 2040s appears to be just a few dozen individuals total. If we were to accept the official stats crew numbers, that's a few dozen Zentradi in a fleet with hundreds of thousands of crew... easy to lose a needle in a haystack that size.

If the Zentreadi are involved at the higher levels of the UEEF, then the low ranks should still be exposed to them on some level. Breetai's group though may be a single unit and not represent the entirety of the Zent. population given Exeedore wasn't there and doesn't stand out either. So what we really have is an elite group of Zentraedi being showcased, and not the Zentreadi proper IMHO.

Unless, of course, that has changed per Prelude (we don't know) or the number of the female Zentradi who survived the revolt (since they were such a small minority) was too low for the number who survived to reproduce with non-Zentradi mates to be more than negligible... thus jiving perfectly with Scott's implication that the Zentradi are extinct or at least nearly so, and Marcus's surprise at finding an alien among his fellows.

Scott's comment would also work if the Zentreadi all went off with human counterparts instead of Zent. counterparts to produce off-spring, since functionally all that remains are 1/2-breeds who may not think of themselves as purely Zent (case in point Mia and Dana), and may identify with their human ancestry better (case in point Dana, she calls herself a "human being").

How quickly do people forget celebrity weddings in modern culture? Pretty darn fast. If Max was overshadowed in the postwar political and military game, then he might enjoy some relative obscurity... especially since Rick seems to be the one man everyone knows (whereas in the original his historical impact bordered on "Nonentity" after the war).

True, but how many celebrity weddings are of any actual historical significance? It was the 1st Wedding in outer space (after ~2years quite surprising really), it was the 1st wedding of a human and alien. It played a role in the Zentreadi/SDF-1 alliance.

Doesn't that sort of point to exactly what I was saying, though... that Max was overshadowed by Rick?

Max may not be on the same levels as Hunter and Wolfe, but he does appear to have connected his name with "Skull Squadron" based on Rick's statement about a "Sterling" remaining in charge of Skull Squadron.

[Seto Kaiba]

The problem with that angle is that if technology has improved, then the AA-class shouldn't be necessary.

Possibly... though it may simply be that the UEEF doesn't want to/can't spare enough ships to provide a suitably large escort detail, so they wanted their colony ships to be able to carry an acceptably large defensive complement on their own instead of being a box full of targets. To that end, the UEEF's core fleet appears to be only ~400 ships in 2044, which isn't many when you consider that fleet is supposed to (postwar) provide security for at least two systems.

Pt 1. If it was designed for deployment after liberation of Earth, and the Invid are the reason the AA-class is around in the first place then they could simply return to the A/nS-class if the Invid are no longer expected to be around after LoE.

Clearly the UEEF weren't confident that 1. the Invid were going to be neutered as a threat in the wake of Earth's liberation, 2. there weren't other threats out there after the defeat of the Invid, and 3. they would have sufficient fleet assets to guarantee the defense of one of their old, unarmed colony ships after combat losses.

Pt 2. Isn't the older Angel-class unarmed though? Putting even a few emplaced AA turrets would be an improvement.

True, but the goal seems to have been to make a new colony ship fully capable of looking after itself in a fight. (The obvious reason, given the production art, is that they want to rip off the Macross-class without getting sued into next century.)

Pt 3. The systems may be potent in that sense, but then again Grant really only needed the ship to run, not fight which probably brings the crew requirement down. [...]

That raises an interesting question... are those turrets all manned, or are they remotely operated and simply controlled by one or more weapons stations on the bridge?

The are several problems with this anti-view though:
-it assumes all Zentraedi stand-out, when we know that is not the case (order of canon) [...]

Actually, it's based on the available evidence from the period in question... which shows that, among Zentradi seen after Khyron's rebellion, the ones that are obviously not human seem to outnumber the inconspicuous ones by a substantial margin.

-it assumes all 1/2-breeds stand out, when we know that is not the case w/the known population from the Sterlings

No, it assumes that half-breeds are almost unheard-of, which is the case considering that we have exactly ONE example family in the entire canon.

-it assumes the population at large discusses their family tree/history/ethnic background

It assumes that human society still operates on the basic principles it has for millennia... that living and working around people means that the subject of family will INEVITABLY come up at some point, and that learning about one-another is a fundamental part of forming relationships.

-there are aliens among them (and known to exist) that can pass for regular human, even humans with certain disorders

But there's no proof that there are... with the sole exception of the Sterling children.

If the Zentreadi are involved at the higher levels of the UEEF, then the low ranks should still be exposed to them on some level. Breetai's group though may be a single unit and not represent the entirety of the Zent. population given Exeedore wasn't there and doesn't stand out either.

The Zentradi only seem to be involved at a high level in terms of Breetai's command of what's apparently an all-Zentradi unit (more like an all-alien unit in the RPG) separate from the UEEF's regular forces. Exedore and Miriya seem to be the sole exceptions to this rule, while aliens are generally kept at arm's length from the main UEEF body of troops.

Scott's comment would also work if the Zentreadi all went off with human counterparts instead of Zent. counterparts to produce off-spring, since functionally all that remains are 1/2-breeds who may not think of themselves as purely Zent (case in point Mia and Dana), and may identify with their human ancestry better (case in point Dana, she calls herself a "human being").

That doesn't fit with Scott's expressed attitude that he'd very much like to kill all the Invid...

True, but how many celebrity weddings are of any actual historical significance? It was the 1st Wedding in outer space (after ~2years quite surprising really), it was the 1st wedding of a human and alien. It played a role in the Zentreadi/SDF-1 alliance.

With the wedding having actually accomplished very little of historical significance, except to prompt Dolza to speed up his plans to nuke Earth into the stone age, it may not necessarily be all that memorable... especially with the growing anti-alien sentiment in the UEEF.

[ShadowLogan]

Possibly... though it may simply be that the UEEF doesn't want to/can't spare enough ships to provide a suitably large escort detail, so they wanted their colony ships to be able to carry an acceptably large defensive complement on their own instead of being a box full of targets. To that end, the UEEF's core fleet appears to be only ~400 ships in 2044, which isn't many when you consider that fleet is supposed to (postwar) provide security for at least two systems.

The problem here is that they are building a ship-class that is BIGGER than some of the largest human warships (SDF-1, Tok, SDF-3, SDF-4 which are in the 1.2km area, the AA is over 2km long, which is still longer than the N-S class IINM, granted the N-S are also fairly wide). So they are putting in even more resources to the colony ships, that could be used in other aspects to shore up their numbers to allow them to provide better security as more ships mean they can protect a larger area.

Clearly the UEEF weren't confident that 1. the Invid were going to be neutered as a threat in the wake of Earth's liberation, 2. there weren't other threats out there after the defeat of the Invid, and 3. they would have sufficient fleet assets to guarantee the defense of one of their old, unarmed colony ships after combat losses.

True, but the UEEF could also reconsider its colonization model so they can use their resources to maximum effect. TY seems bent on emulating Macross in this respect, when it makes more sense for the UEEF to emulate the Star Trek model IMHO by using scouts and then brigning in the colonists later.

True, but the goal seems to have been to make a new colony ship fully capable of looking after itself in a fight.

I don't think you need to mount a Syncro-cannon to do that though, and a maingun/syncro-cannon is part of the lineart in AotSC. That a colony ship could be outfitted with weapons to defend itself isn't necessarily the issue, its the extent given its primary purpose should be to transport colonists and supplies to the target area, not wage a war on the way.

That raises an interesting question... are those turrets all manned, or are they remotely operated and simply controlled by one or more weapons stations on the bridge?

Likely both to some extent. They might get better results with a man per turret, as opposed one man operating a series or via AI/computer control. But we have to remember the AA may not have been fully completed (or brought out of mothballs, take your pick) as Grant was really looking for a non-shadow ship to RUN, NOT FIGHT. So the requirements of the ship's readiness change in that respect.

Actually, it's based on the available evidence from the period in question... which shows that, among Zentradi seen after Khyron's rebellion, the ones that are obviously not human seem to outnumber the inconspicuous ones by a substantial margin.

The problem though is it still assumes all Zentreadi, and even half-breeds, are supposed to be conspicuously identifiable based on TSC/PttSC, while ignoring 85ep and even TSC itself (Mia).

We also have to remember that Alex and Marcus state they only knew girls who where pilots like them, but there are plenty of females shown in support roles that where outside their closed social circle, raising reliability of their reactions if they can't notice the girls in other roles.

that living and working around people means that the subject of family will INEVITABLY come up at some point, and that learning about one-another is a fundamental part of forming relationships.

True, but that is hardly used as ice-breakers and usually comes after the relationship has developed to a certain point.

But there's no proof that there are... with the sole exception of the Sterling children.

We see Rem and Cabell (Tirolians) walking the halls of the SSL in Prelude. We have Exeedore (Zentraedi). We have Janice (non-human). Even the Sentinels are shown to meet with the UEEF, which include Praxians (pass for human females). So if you can have full aliens walking among you unnoticable physically, then it stands to reason that half-breeds can to. And SSL did have noticable aliens onboard (Kabarrens, who also helped with the SDF-3 refit).

The Zentradi only seem to be involved at a high level in terms of Breetai's command of what's apparently an all-Zentradi unit (more like an all-alien unit in the RPG) separate from the UEEF's regular forces. Exedore and Miriya seem to be the sole exceptions to this rule, while aliens are generally kept at arm's length from the main UEEF body of troops.

Wolfe Leader's (Cmdr Baker?) comment in Prelude "I never thought I'd see the day where the great Breetai himself would be fighting with our squadron!" would suggest that, but only in terms of Breetai's unit.

That doesn't fit with Scott's expressed attitude that he'd very much like to kill all the Invid...

I disagree. The Zentreadi would be functionally extinct at that point, which is very much in line with the expressed attitude of "go the way of the Zentreadi", as we don't know how fertile the hybrids actually are.

With the wedding having actually accomplished very little of historical significance, except to prompt Dolza to speed up his plans to nuke Earth into the stone age, it may not necessarily be all that memorable... especially with the growing anti-alien sentiment in the UEEF.

There is plenty of historical significance to the wedding beyond being part of the catalyst for Dolza's attack. It might not be as emphasized in later periods, but it would still be historically noteworthy.

[Colonel Wolfe]

There is plenty of historical significance to the wedding beyond being part of the catalyst for Dolza's attack. It might not be as emphasized in later periods, but it would still be historically noteworthy.

I gotta disagree, if supposedly Dana and Bowie grew up together (something not implied in the show), the wedding wasn't that important being she needed to tell him about it after graduation... 2 kids growing up together, Bowie would have been more aware of the marriage if it meant anything major at all....