Computerhacking in Macross II and RT?

[Seto Kaiba]

Oh yeah with the right tools you could probably do it (as Seto said) but for those w/out the knowledge and tools it's royal pain.

Just as well... without that, guys like me would be out of a job!

Sure you can make a patch to fix bugs, etc. but to me it still makes more sense to write a new program that actually works instead of constantly making up half measures (plus Microsoft and others are more profit driven so it makes sense that the're continuously putting out new product).

Er... not meaning to offend you, but this smacks of "anything I don't know how to do is easy", which is a fairly common fallacy where computers are concerned.

It varies with the complexity of the program involved, but for most software in this day in age it's actually much easier to identify errors and correct them via patches than it is to write the software over again and hope that it'll be perfect the first time. It takes massive investments of time, resources, and manpower to create something as complex as an operating system for your garden-variety smartphone or personal computer. Software running on the platform isn't stand-alone, it has dependencies upon modules built into the operating system. In a complex operating environment like that it's always going to be easier to patch problems than create a all-new version and worry about torpedoing all your compatibility. With the sort of computers needed to perform the 10+-dimensional mathematics necessary to navigate foldspace, master gravity, and manage power generation on a level that makes the biggest nuclear power plants here on Earth look like party snaps, it's inevitable that simply adapting the software that's had half a million years of validation and field-testing behind it is going to be more reliable than any attempt at reinventing the wheel.

Now it does seem that the Zentran systems have stood the "test of time", but eventually once the humans started building their own ships they'd probably be writing new programs as the new ships don't run the same systems the Zent ships do.

... wut? In the main Macross timeline, human overtechnology is largely based upon the Zentradi overtechnology they've captured over the years. In the Macross II timeline, it really is Zentradi and Meltrandi overtechnology they're using. The technology those ships use may not be built by the factory satellites that've been building for the Zentradi for 500,000 years, but they're the same technology... sometimes it's built to higher precision or slightly different parameters, but it's the same technology used for the same purpose.

(In fact the mass-produced Macross-class ships in the main timeline, like the SDFN-4 in Macross Frontier and SDFN-8 in Macross 30, were spaceframes that were made in rather a big hurry by diverting parts from Zentradi ships being built to their construction, so there ARE human-built ships are use the exact same systems as Zentradi ships.)

[keir451]

No offense taken, I didn't mean it the way it sounded. I realize that ANY level of programming is time consuming.
It may be easier TODAY to just write patchesbut when you're trying to understand an alien programming language you DON'T want stop gap measures for very long, you want to understand it completely so that you can write the programs YOURSELF in your OWN "common" programming language so someone else later on down the road doesn't have to. The programs perform the same function it's just that they are rewritten in human computer language instead of Zentran. This would be especially true once humans started building ther own ships, they computer cores will NOT be of Protoculture build but of human design with human software, that's just the way humanity works. Once we understand something we then reproduce it using the information gained to fuel our own technology and many times taking things in an entirely different direction. Also in this case you wouldn't want to take the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." stance, you'd WANT to take it apart to see how it works and then rewrite it so maybe it works BETTER and so EVERYONE can use it/understand it.
Yes the Overtechnology is based on Zentran/Meltran equipment but it's not actually the same equipment. The ships built by the humans have different weapon sytems, different crew sizes, different requirements over all than the Zentran ships do. So they'd program the computers accordingly and instead of trying to reconfigure Zentran computer language they'd just write their own to do what they need.

[Seto Kaiba]

It may be easier TODAY to just write patchesbut when you're trying to understand an alien programming language you DON'T want stop gap measures for very long, you want to understand it completely so that you can write the programs YOURSELF in your OWN "common" programming language so someone else later on down the road doesn't have to.

Or you can just superimpose your own language onto the existing operating system and use it more or less as-is... which is probably what the Macross II UN Spacy did, since their new ships are built around Zentradi and Meltrandi overtechnology.

The programs perform the same function it's just that they are rewritten in human computer language instead of Zentran. This would be especially true once humans started building ther own ships, they computer cores will NOT be of Protoculture build but of human design with human software, that's just the way humanity works.

But the high-level language the program is written in largely doesn't matter once the program has been compiled. After that point, it's just a collection of machine language instructions to be acted upon by the system. The programming language and the system it's running on are, for most purposes, completely independent of each other. So long as the compiler is properly converting it into the instruction set used for the hardware, the same program written in two different programming languages with identical feature support should run virtually identically. You don't NEED to rewrite anything.

You don't need to reinvent the wheel and come up with a human-centric programming language or anything like that... you can keep using the tried and true 500,000 year proven hardware to run your ship, and using the same software that's been running on those systems for that half-million year period, you just need your compiler to speak the same low-level language that the original system is using... and if you're just using the Zentradi hardware in a different box, the way the Macross II-era UN Spacy ships often are, you don't even need to go THAT far. All you need to do is slap the equivalent of a language pack on it and away you go.

Once we understand something we then reproduce it using the information gained to fuel our own technology and many times taking things in an entirely different direction. Also in this case you wouldn't want to take the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." stance, you'd WANT to take it apart to see how it works and then rewrite it so maybe it works BETTER and so EVERYONE can use it/understand it.

But if it already does the job you want it to do, like 90% of overtechnology, why bother even messing with it? It's worked perfectly for half a million years.

Yes the Overtechnology is based on Zentran/Meltran equipment but it's not actually the same equipment.

Actually, in a fair amount of cases, it IS. Refer to my earlier example about the mass produced Macross-class ships literally being built with key systems diverted from Zentradi ships that were under construction at the same time. You're replicating the same technology, and putting it into a different box is all.

The ships built by the humans have different weapon sytems, [...]

Not really... the orientation of the weapons might be different, and turret mountings might be different, but the underlying technology is all the same. Everyone's using the same dimension weapons tech for their beam guns large and small. Missile launchers might be rocket science, but they're not exactly cutting edge technology. The warheads? Well, the Zentradi used to have the same kind of warhead technology too... and only lost it when they lost the factory satellites producing it.

Weapons technology didn't really change a whole hell of a lot when humans adopted the alien technology that'd been dropped in their laps. The only new thing they brought to the table in terms of weaponry were comparatively primitive projectile weapons. The Zentradi already use laser weapons, particle beam guns, and dimension weaponry.

Human ships might LOOK different, but under the hood the systems are mostly the same... in the Macross II universe, there's a fair chance the systems ARE the same and that those ships were built around Zentradi or Meltrandi hardware from a factory satellite in Earth orbit.

So they'd program the computers accordingly and instead of trying to reconfigure Zentran computer language they'd just write their own to do what they need

Y'see, that's all assumption... not fact.

[keir451]

@ Seto Kaiba; I understand what you're saying and that may indeed be what the books say, or what the shows creator's prorposed, but that's NOT how a military force would do things, nor how humans in genral would do things. It smacks of "I just don't give a rats' behind and I'm too lazy to do this the right way." which is NOT how a military functions (and the U.N Space Forces are most assuredly a military force) and tends to get people killed, often times LITERALLY.
The interface would work for the systems onboard the Macross but once the engineers understood what the systems did, they'd write their own programs and replace the Zentran ones no matter how well they seemed to work (which could be an issue if the programs have been running w/out maintenance for hundreds of thousands of years). The simple fact is humans WOULD replace the existing systems with their own systems once they could reliably manufacture them simply because they would NOT trust the Zentran's sytems simply because they aren't human built (much the way we used to deride foreign cars back in the 70's and 80's because they weren't made in the U.S). it's just a basic factor of human culture that it is always undergoing change and our technology changes to keep pace, it never stays static for very long, unlike the Zentran/ Meltran fleets which hadn't changed in hundreds of thousands of years.
The humans MIGHT repurpose SOME ship frames initially, just to get things rolling (like the Megaroad that Hikaru and Misa left in) but ALL the othe colony vessels would be on human design built according to human specifications and most assuredly using human software and computer programs, simply because they're humans and that's what we do.
Anyway, I DO appreciate your input and your help in clearing things up on some subjects, but we're just going 'round and 'round on this and we'll never agree with each other. So I'll let bygones be bygones and call "quits' on the software issue. That fair enough?

[Seto Kaiba]

@ Seto Kaiba; I understand what you're saying and that may indeed be what the books say, or what the shows creator's prorposed, but that's NOT how a military force would do things, nor how humans in genral would do things.

Eh... you're assuming that, and it's not actually a correct assumption. There are, indeed, no shortage of cases of military technology being developed in an imitative manner rather than a purely innovative one. Likewise, there are plenty of high-visibility cases of militaries using old technology that emphatically doesn't NEED tinkering.

(On the latter note, look at how the B-52 has shaped up with only minor modernizations, and the endurance we've seen with the Browning .50cal machine guns...)

It smacks of "I just don't give a rats' behind and I'm too lazy to do this the right way." which is NOT how a military functions (and the U.N Space Forces are most assuredly a military force) and tends to get people killed, often times LITERALLY.

Y'see, this is a faulty assumption... the right way is, in any development environment, the way that gets you the best results with the least cost. If using an established technology and not tinkering with a proven record of success when no tinkering is necessary did the job, that's exactly how they would do it. (Indeed, that's the reason that, despite being a new fighter, we have such primitive operating system software aboard the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II that it's joked that they're immune to electronic sabotage because nobody knows how to code for such antiquated platforms anymore.)

The interface would work for the systems onboard the Macross but once the engineers understood what the systems did, they'd write their own programs and replace the Zentran ones no matter how well they seemed to work (which could be an issue if the programs have been running w/out maintenance for hundreds of thousands of years). [...]

You're asserting that that's the case, but as I've pointed out already you are explicitly wrong within the context of the Macross universes. The UN was quite happy to use the same technology on Zentradi ships because of its immense reliability, and the fact that they had a means of independently producing the stuff themselves.

The simple fact is humans WOULD replace the existing systems with their own systems once they could reliably manufacture them simply because they would NOT trust the Zentran's sytems simply because they aren't human built (much the way we used to deride foreign cars back in the 70's and 80's because they weren't made in the U.S).

That's a faulty assumption... we use plenty of foreign hardware without batting an eye in our military's vehicles and other equipment. We're perfectly happy to trust equipment made by a foreign nation that used to be an enemy decades ago. The US Army's favored service pistol's made by an Italian company, and the Abrams' main mount has been variously made in the UK and Germany. The Navy's MP5 is German in origin. Several of our anti-ship missiles are made in Japan. I could go on like this for quite a while...

The simple truth is that, if humanity could independently produce the Zentradi technology to the same standards of durability and reliability that the Zentradi Army has enjoyed for half a millennium and just package it in their own designs, they'd do that instead of trying to make their own, less-reliable version. You have to remember, the Zentradi who provided the tech have been Earth citizens for almost a century at this point, and it's being made in the factory satellites in Earth orbit. It is, by this point, domestic technology. You might notice that the UN Spacy is not at all ashamed of adapting Zentradi technology to other purposes (like the Macross Cannon ships, or converted Zentradi ships operating as carriers). It's called making an efficient use of the resources you have on hand.

it's just a basic factor of human culture that it is always undergoing change and our technology changes to keep pace, it never stays static for very long, unlike the Zentran/ Meltran fleets which hadn't changed in hundreds of thousands of years.

If we can't improve on the technology that has been the pinnacle of technology for 500,000 years... there's no reason to change. Only to adapt that technology to new and increasingly inventive applications. That's how the Macross II timeline's technological progression has gone... they just apply Zentradi and Meltrandi technology to their existing problems. The tech itself hasn't really changed... they've gained a greater understanding of it, and applied what they've learned in new ways. The Macross II Valkyries are, for instance, a synthesis of human Variable Fighter technology and Zentradi/Meltrandi battle suit tech. That's where the big increase in capability came from... the study and adoption of tech from Zentradi battle suits (or, rather, a factory satellite that made same).

The humans MIGHT repurpose SOME ship frames initially, just to get things rolling (like the Megaroad that Hikaru and Misa left in) but ALL the othe colony vessels would be on human design built according to human specifications and most assuredly using human software and computer programs, simply because they're humans and that's what we do. [...]

And yet, there are plenty of countries on this planet that are perfectly happy to buy the used military hardware of the bigger nations. Everything from ships to tanks to guns. About the only thing we're not exporting for profit is harsh language. Some countries buy from the US, and the line of countries buying old Russian hardware is terrifyingly long. Why would this be any different for the UN in Macross II?

Indeed, it ISN'T different from the UN... because, if you watch the OVA, you'll see that the UN Spacy's fleet is made up almost entirely of Zentradi warships with UN markings. Human-built warships are actually way in the minority there, and always were if you go by the prequels in the timeline. The human ships in service after the 2040s are, shock of shocks, mostly just a collection of human-built imitations of (principally Meltrandi) ship classes. The Gloria's a scaled-down Meltrandi fleet command battleship, and the Herakles is a (less-severely) scaled-down Meltrandi gun destroyer. The standard battleship is a sort of Meltrandi-esque spin on the Thuverl Salan-class battleship.

This is different in the main Macross timeline, where humans are building their own ships with original designs, but they're still using the same time-honored technologies found on the Zentradi ships that we see they're still using in large numbers for their Marine forces and in a great many colony escort forces. We know for a fact that the UN Spacy in the main timeline continued to use Zentradi mecha well into the 2040s (the Queadluun-Rau was apparently an extremely well-regarded mecha, prompting the development of a more survivable version we first see in Macross Frontier), and Zentradi ships are still common into the 2060s. The Macross-class mass production type was made almost plug-and-play style out of parts from Zentradi warships, and the VF-22 uses a system copied whole cloth from the Q-Rau to insulate its cockpit against high g-forces. Per canon, fighters started adopting Zentradi tech in their designs as early as the VF-3000 and VF-5000 (some of the first VFs developed after the VF-1) and continued to do so well into the 2060s. Captain Klan even hangs a lampshade on how human technology isn't as durable, long-lasting, or reliable as Zentradi technology early into Macross Frontier. It's hard to argue with a gun so reliable you can leave it floating in the vacuum of space for a few thousand years without its power supply and it'll still hold enough charge to fire in its capacitors and fire without the need for "percussive encouragement".

If it ain't broke and it meets your needs perfectly, you don't fix it and you don't replace it... that's common sense that applies to the military and everywhere else.

[keir451]

@ Seto Kaiba; I understand what you're saying and that may indeed be what the books say, or what the shows creator's prorposed, but that's NOT how a military force would do things, nor how humans in genral would do things.

Eh... you're assuming that, and it's not actually a correct assumption. There are, indeed, no shortage of cases of military technology being developed in an imitative manner rather than a purely innovative one. Likewise, there are plenty of high-visibility cases of militaries using old technology that emphatically doesn't NEED tinkering.

(On the latter note, look at how the B-52 has shaped up with only minor modernizations, and the endurance we've seen with the Browning .50cal machine guns...)

It smacks of "I just don't give a rats' behind and I'm too lazy to do this the right way." which is NOT how a military functions (and the U.N Space Forces are most assuredly a military force) and tends to get people killed, often times LITERALLY.

Y'see, this is a faulty assumption... the right way is, in any development environment, the way that gets you the best results with the least cost. If using an established technology and not tinkering with a proven record of success when no tinkering is necessary did the job, that's exactly how they would do it. (Indeed, that's the reason that, despite being a new fighter, we have such primitive operating system software aboard the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II that it's joked that they're immune to electronic sabotage because nobody knows how to code for such antiquated platforms anymore.)

The interface would work for the systems onboard the Macross but once the engineers understood what the systems did, they'd write their own programs and replace the Zentran ones no matter how well they seemed to work (which could be an issue if the programs have been running w/out maintenance for hundreds of thousands of years). [...]

You're asserting that that's the case, but as I've pointed out already you are explicitly wrong within the context of the Macross universes. The UN was quite happy to use the same technology on Zentradi ships because of its immense reliability, and the fact that they had a means of independently producing the stuff themselves.

The simple fact is humans WOULD replace the existing systems with their own systems once they could reliably manufacture them simply because they would NOT trust the Zentran's sytems simply because they aren't human built (much the way we used to deride foreign cars back in the 70's and 80's because they weren't made in the U.S).

That's a faulty assumption... we use plenty of foreign hardware without batting an eye in our military's vehicles and other equipment. We're perfectly happy to trust equipment made by a foreign nation that used to be an enemy decades ago. The US Army's favored service pistol's made by an Italian company, and the Abrams' main mount has been variously made in the UK and Germany. The Navy's MP5 is German in origin. Several of our anti-ship missiles are made in Japan. I could go on like this for quite a while...

The simple truth is that, if humanity could independently produce the Zentradi technology to the same standards of durability and reliability that the Zentradi Army has enjoyed for half a millennium and just package it in their own designs, they'd do that instead of trying to make their own, less-reliable version. You have to remember, the Zentradi who provided the tech have been Earth citizens for almost a century at this point, and it's being made in the factory satellites in Earth orbit. It is, by this point, domestic technology. You might notice that the UN Spacy is not at all ashamed of adapting Zentradi technology to other purposes (like the Macross Cannon ships, or converted Zentradi ships operating as carriers). It's called making an efficient use of the resources you have on hand.

it's just a basic factor of human culture that it is always undergoing change and our technology changes to keep pace, it never stays static for very long, unlike the Zentran/ Meltran fleets which hadn't changed in hundreds of thousands of years.

If we can't improve on the technology that has been the pinnacle of technology for 500,000 years... there's no reason to change. Only to adapt that technology to new and increasingly inventive applications. That's how the Macross II timeline's technological progression has gone... they just apply Zentradi and Meltrandi technology to their existing problems. The tech itself hasn't really changed... they've gained a greater understanding of it, and applied what they've learned in new ways. The Macross II Valkyries are, for instance, a synthesis of human Variable Fighter technology and Zentradi/Meltrandi battle suit tech. That's where the big increase in capability came from... the study and adoption of tech from Zentradi battle suits (or, rather, a factory satellite that made same).

The humans MIGHT repurpose SOME ship frames initially, just to get things rolling (like the Megaroad that Hikaru and Misa left in) but ALL the othe colony vessels would be on human design built according to human specifications and most assuredly using human software and computer programs, simply because they're humans and that's what we do. [...]

And yet, there are plenty of countries on this planet that are perfectly happy to buy the used military hardware of the bigger nations. Everything from ships to tanks to guns. About the only thing we're not exporting for profit is harsh language. Some countries buy from the US, and the line of countries buying old Russian hardware is terrifyingly long. Why would this be any different for the UN in Macross II?

Indeed, it ISN'T different from the UN... because, if you watch the OVA, you'll see that the UN Spacy's fleet is made up almost entirely of Zentradi warships with UN markings. Human-built warships are actually way in the minority there, and always were if you go by the prequels in the timeline. The human ships in service after the 2040s are, shock of shocks, mostly just a collection of human-built imitations of (principally Meltrandi) ship classes. The Gloria's a scaled-down Meltrandi fleet command battleship, and the Herakles is a (less-severely) scaled-down Meltrandi gun destroyer. The standard battleship is a sort of Meltrandi-esque spin on the Thuverl Salan-class battleship.

This is different in the main Macross timeline, where humans are building their own ships with original designs, but they're still using the same time-honored technologies found on the Zentradi ships that we see they're still using in large numbers for their Marine forces and in a great many colony escort forces. We know for a fact that the UN Spacy in the main timeline continued to use Zentradi mecha well into the 2040s (the Queadluun-Rau was apparently an extremely well-regarded mecha, prompting the development of a more survivable version we first see in Macross Frontier), and Zentradi ships are still common into the 2060s. The Macross-class mass production type was made almost plug-and-play style out of parts from Zentradi warships, and the VF-22 uses a system copied whole cloth from the Q-Rau to insulate its cockpit against high g-forces. Per canon, fighters started adopting Zentradi tech in their designs as early as the VF-3000 and VF-5000 (some of the first VFs developed after the VF-1) and continued to do so well into the 2060s. Captain Klan even hangs a lampshade on how human technology isn't as durable, long-lasting, or reliable as Zentradi technology early into Macross Frontier. It's hard to argue with a gun so reliable you can leave it floating in the vacuum of space for a few thousand years without its power supply and it'll still hold enough charge to fire in its capacitors and fire without the need for "percussive encouragement".

If it ain't broke and it meets your needs perfectly, you don't fix it and you don't replace it... that's common sense that applies to the military and everywhere else.

As I said, I disagree with your assertions and am willing to leave it at that, my experience has been differnt from yours and does not support nor validate what you and the writers claim. To me it just does not make sense to things the way the writers and the series do it.
Anyway, I DO appreciate your input and your help in clearing things up on some subjects, but we're just going 'round and 'round on this and we'll never agree with each other. So I'll let bygones be bygones and call "quits' on the software issue. That fair enough?

[ShadowLogan]

Oh yeah with the right tools you could probably do it (as Seto said) but for those w/out the knowledge and tools it's royal pain.

It's really more of a knowledge thing than a tool thing in general since the list of tools is so small for most of the work one is likely to do.

Sure you can make a patch to fix bugs, etc. but to me it still makes more sense to write a new program that actually works instead of constantly making up half measures

It really isn't though to write a completely new program after a certain point, unless it is extremely broken. I doubt you (or any sensible person) would want to have to start fresh with a program every time a bug is found that contains MILLIONS of lines of code.

Part of that is my belief that the idiots hould have gotten it right the first time around.

I share the belief to, but I also recognize that mistakes happen and software testing doesn't catch everything unless you have really dedicated group of testers who can think of everything they can to make the program work incorrectly, not to mention have the proper amount of time and resources.

Just consider the F-22 (with its MILLIONS of lines of code) and its maiden crossing of the international dateline back in '07.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/f22 ... ine-03087/
http://www.dailytech.com/Article.aspx?newsid=6225

but eventually once the humans started building their own ships they'd probably be writing new programs as the new ships don't run the same systems the Zent ships do...

Maybe, but for them to do that they would have to produce a better product instead of adapting alien programs to the hardware (patch), or making the hardware work with the alien programs. And with new products you are going to have bugs and other issues that will have to be addressed eventually, so you really haven't changed anything other than introducing a potentially more unreliable agent into the mix.

[Seto Kaiba]

It's really more of a knowledge thing than a tool thing in general since the list of tools is so small for most of the work one is likely to do.

True... but the stumbling block for most folks who know what they're doing is usually that little security screw that they don't have a screwdriver for.

It really isn't though to write a completely new program after a certain point, unless it is extremely broken. I doubt you (or any sensible person) would want to have to start fresh with a program every time a bug is found that contains MILLIONS of lines of code.

There's a very good reason that modern operating system development is usually an additive process... "done right the first time" is a freaking MYTH. In applications like that, where you have tens or hundreds of millions of lines of code, the existence of at least several HUNDRED bugs is a mathematical certainty. No matter how well-equipped and well-coordinated that a development team is, there will ALWAYS be bugs at that level of complexity. That's why the major players in operating system development (Microsoft and Apple) have been building upon their previous work with each new OS version. You don't, as a programmer, reinvent the proverbial wheel every time you build a new program. That's what modularity is all about. It's been a basic principle of the field for something like fifty or sixty years now.

(To give a fantastic example, Windows 8 wasn't a "new" operating system, nor was Windows 7... both were built off the same kernel - NT 6 - that the much-maligned Windows Vista was, just with patches and fixes and optimizations. Windows 8.1 is just NT 6.3.9600, the version number on the box is utterly arbitrary.)

I share the belief to, but I also recognize that mistakes happen and software testing doesn't catch everything unless you have really dedicated group of testers who can think of everything they can to make the program work incorrectly, not to mention have the proper amount of time and resources.

When it comes to software development on a complex application, validation testing takes a lot longer than the actual coding process. The more complex the software, the more failure modes there are... and in something like an operating system, where you have to worry about both the high-level code of the OS itself and the low-level code for the hardware operability, there's too many areas where problems could occur to feasibly test everything. That's why we have updates in the field (patches, like Windows update), Service Packs, and so on.

Maybe, but for them to do that they would have to produce a better product instead of adapting alien programs to the hardware (patch), or making the hardware work with the alien programs.

... and they're going to have a hell of a time producing better, more reliable software that the code the Zentradi have been using, which has been running without a hitch for something like half a million years. It's going to be far easier, safer, and more reliable to simply convert and adapt existing modules from the Zentradi software than to code whole new ones to do the same job.

[guardiandashi]

I was reading the back and forth on programming ... and was toing to toss a little side example in..
the John Ringo "troy rising" series based in the schlock merc universe..

the humans there got a small fabber and looked at the code and about had a cow.. billions of lines of code, etc. and then they started actually analyzing the code and found out... that the people they got it from didn't really know how to code for crud, they used legacy modules and bent, folded, spindled, and other ways modified existing code to do what they wanted. and only wrote new code when they really had to.

part of the reason in that example case is they Glatun when they were brought into the "galactic community" were other wise in say having their version of the industrial revolution, and just weren't that "creative" they went with what worked and moved on.

humans when they were found ... well it was the 90's or basically the present humanity had the internet, basically an understanding of a lot of theory but no practical application. and so they read through the code looked for "useless code strings" back doors and similar and "patched them out" re writing modules when necessary, but when it worked they reused it.

[keir451]

Thinking back on my own past I recall that I did serve aboard a Wasp class amphibious ship (USS Belleau Wood, LHA-3). It was decomissioned back in '98 (i think) and replaced with the LHD class. She was at least 40 -50 yrs old but the major changes were in the electronics department which were upgraded during SLEP programs.
I also recall a snippet from the Macross II RPG in which they discussed the cost of running the Zentran flagships being part of the reason they were switching over to the relatively smaller ships. Cost is always a factor in any military, if it costs too much to produce something it might be delayed or certain things might be changed to make it more feasible. Then there's the politics that are involved as well, which state Senator's re-election campaign might be affected if this base is closed or piece of equipment is/isn't produced. I'm sure the UN Spacy (despite being a single gov't agency) has those problems, but I'm NOT sure the CS does (if the Emperor wishes it it shall be ).
I'm still not convinced that the UN Sapcy would carry over old Zent programs to their new ships, as I'd figure that by that time they could reprodcue the programs in their own computer language, but that's the benefit of these RPGs , we can call the shots for either situation.

[Seto Kaiba]

Thinking back on my own past I recall that I did serve aboard a Wasp class amphibious ship (USS Belleau Wood, LHA-3). It was decomissioned back in '98 (i think) and replaced with the LHD class. She was at least 40 -50 yrs old but the major changes were in the electronics department which were upgraded during SLEP programs.

Y'see... that's not something you have to worry about when you're using technology that has been essentially the state of the art for 500,000 years.

I also recall a snippet from the Macross II RPG in which they discussed the cost of running the Zentran flagships being part of the reason they were switching over to the relatively smaller ships.

Eh... and, of course, anyone who actually watched the OVA would instantly spot that as the blatant misinformation it is. If you pay attention to the OVA, or consult any of the Japanese sources for the OVA, that the UN Spacy's fleets are actually mostly made up of the Zentradi ships that've either defected/surrendered, been captured, or been produced by the UN's two factory satellites in the Sol system. The "new" starship classes aren't really all that new, for the most part they're ships that were produced to replace Zentradi ships that were "sunk" in the large-scale Zentradi invasion of 2054. They were replacing "niche" ships like the massive fleet command battleships, and, in a few cases, developing specialist ships for roles that the Zentradi fleet either didn't accommodate or for which capturing the Zentradi equivalent is an impossible undertaking.

Cost is always a factor in any military, if it costs too much to produce something it might be delayed or certain things might be changed to make it more feasible. [...] I'm sure the UN Spacy (despite being a single gov't agency) has those problems, but I'm NOT sure the CS does (if the Emperor wishes it it shall be ).

Of course cost is a factor... indeed, it's probably a big part of why the UN Spacy of Macross II: Lovers Again uses the thousands of Zentradi ships that they didn't have to build as their fleet's backbone. They have massive, automated factories that can either build the ships or a bunch of prefabricated components that can be dropped into a human-designed spaceframe... and a whole solar system's worth of materials to work with. What's cheaper? Using a proven, effective, robust system that has 500,000 years of validation behind it that you can make for practically nothing and run forever... or trying to reinvent the proverbial wheel?

The UN Spacy in Macross II builds its ships and fighters with Zentradi and Meltrandi OT specifically because it's robust, it's low-maintenance, it's effective, and it's efficient.

From a computer engineering standpoint, there is no reason for the humans to reinvent the wheel... it would be easier, more efficient, safer, and more reliable, to use the existing tech while just developing tools to let humans manipulate the existing code rather than making a whole new system from scratch.

[keir451]

Anyway, my question has been answered, if in a long and roundabout way. So I'm going to call it good and let it all go.
Once again I appreciate everyones input and ideas, I'm off to re-invent the wheel.

[ShadowLogan]

True... but the stumbling block for most folks who know what they're doing is usually that little security screw that they don't have a screwdriver for.

I can't recall ever encountering a security screw on a computer I've actually opened up, but I've never opened up a Mac as they all have been PC.

(To give a fantastic example, Windows 8 wasn't a "new" operating system, nor was Windows 7... both were built off the same kernel - NT 6 - that the much-maligned Windows Vista was, just with patches and fixes and optimizations. Windows 8.1 is just NT 6.3.9600, the version number on the box is utterly arbitrary.)

I see you Windows example, and raise you Linux with all its different "flavors" for the same Kernel but wrapped in a different shell.

[keir451]

True... but the stumbling block for most folks who know what they're doing is usually that little security screw that they don't have a screwdriver for.

I can't recall ever encountering a security screw on a computer I've actually opened up, but I've never opened up a Mac as they all have been PC.

(To give a fantastic example, Windows 8 wasn't a "new" operating system, nor was Windows 7... both were built off the same kernel - NT 6 - that the much-maligned Windows Vista was, just with patches and fixes and optimizations. Windows 8.1 is just NT 6.3.9600, the version number on the box is utterly arbitrary.)

I see you Windows example, and raise you Linux with all its different "flavors" for the same Kernel but wrapped in a different shell.

I've actually heard some say that they preferred the early Windows program to Vista and many of the recetn "incarnations". Since I started w/Vista I can't really say one way or the other. As for computer ssytems, I'll take anythign that allows me to replace parts w/out having to sned it back to the home company.
One of the reason I argue so strongly for non-Zentran computers is that to me they would be the "Macs" of the M2 setting, as they use ONLY Zentran tech and software where as I seethe new data cres of the new ships using more modualr parts that are more "human friendly". While I'm sure the Zentran systems were "the best" when they were designed, there seems to have been little to no change in ANY of the design parameters for the Zents ships and equipment since the day they were put into service, and while that speaks for their durability, it also tells me that the factories are designed to only produce and maintain the ships and various equipment and systems, not improve upon them. This is supported by the fact that the Zentran/Meltran fleets are exactly the same as they were hundreds of thosuands of years ago. So humans, who have a culture of taking things in and changing them to suit themselves, would most likely do the same with the "new" Overtechnology. After they fully understood it they'd make their own modifications and variants of said "new" tech. This may include making "patches " for the still active Zentran vessels so that their own systems can interface with them, to making entirely new versions of the systems according to human tastes. This may seeem like "re-inventing the wheel", but it wouldn't be the first time we adapted someone elses ideas to our own, especially if that "wheel", initially, wasn't made for us.

[Seto Kaiba]

I see you Windows example, and raise you Linux with all its different "flavors" for the same Kernel but wrapped in a different shell.

You're right, that IS an even better example...

I've actually heard some say that they preferred the early Windows program to Vista and many of the recetn "incarnations".

Well, inevitably you'll get a few Luddites who will grumble bitterly about anything new... it's a time-honored tradition (by now, anyway) for people to whine endlessly about the new version being "not as good" as the previous version, and then decide the new version really isn't that bad just in time for a new one to come out.

One of the reason I argue so strongly for non-Zentran computers is that to me they would be the "Macs" of the M2 setting, as they use ONLY Zentran tech and software where as I seethe new data cres of the new ships using more modualr parts that are more "human friendly".

That doesn't make any sense.

We know, as an absolute fact, that humanity's overtechnology was developed by copying (via reverse-engineering) the technology of the Zentradi and Meltrandi (or Supervision Army, in the main timeline). There is no reason that their computer technology would be different from the technology they've been copying. There's also no reason to suspect that Zentradi computers are not similarly modular...

You're building an argument entirely upon assumptions, most of which fly in the face of what official info says or have no basis in anything...

While I'm sure the Zentran systems were "the best" when they were designed, there seems to have been little to no change in ANY of the design parameters for the Zents ships and equipment since the day they were put into service, and while that speaks for their durability, it also tells me that the factories are designed to only produce and maintain the ships and various equipment and systems, not improve upon them.

An assumption that, as I have pointed out previously, EXPLICITLY NOT CORRECT. The factory satellites are, in fact, described as capable of making minor refinements to the equipment they produce. There's also the slight fact that, while Zentradi technology hasn't changed a lot in a half-million years of warfare, it's still more advanced than humanity's even in 2092. That's the reason humanity started adopting Zentradi (and Meltrandi) overtechnology into their own new designs almost right away after the first space war in both universes.

This is supported by the fact that the Zentran/Meltran fleets are exactly the same as they were hundreds of thosuands of years ago.

Y'ever stop to consider that, as that technology was developed by the "sufficiently advanced" aliens whose technological prowess was such that they created entire species on a whim and made manipulating the very fabric of reality into something MUNDANE, and who developed the technology the Zentradi and Meltrandi use at the peak of their civilization might not have done a rubbish job?

They were thousands of years ahead of humanity, technologically, when their civilization went to pot...

They've demonstrated that they could build computers that still work perfectly after 20,000 years at the bottom of the ocean, ships that can operate continuously for 120,000 years in continuous battle without issue, starships that are still operable after being dropped onto a planet from high orbit, megastructure-scale factories the size of planets which can supply fleets of billions of soldiers, sentient holographic computers, and millions of other wonders that are still beyond anything humanity has produced in either timeline.

So humans, who have a culture of taking things in and changing them to suit themselves, would most likely do the same with the "new" Overtechnology. After they fully understood it they'd make their own modifications and variants of said "new" tech.

That's no guarantee that humanity would be able to make something as reliable or powerful as the original technology. Indeed, both Macross universes come right out and say that the overtechnology humanity has developed in its 50 or 80+ year history with the stuff still isn't on anything like the level of what the Zentradi (and Meltrandi) use in many respects.

Humanity's fast-track to improving their VFs and ships is, we're told, to adopt Zentradi and/or Meltrandi tech in their designs. The Valkyrie II family's jump in performance over the VF-1 and VF-4 is attributed to exactly that... the introduction of new Zentradi overtechnologies which had been obtained from a newly captured factory satellite. Similarly, the 2nd Generation VFs from the main timeline almost invariably mention the adoption of Zentradi OT as one of their improvements over the VF-1.

[keir451]

The problemn is that you are quoting sources I've never seen nor had access to. So I, personally, cannot confirm that is what they said. I'm NOT accusing you of lying or making things up. I do believe that's what the creators (or other fans) say the magazines say. But quite often I've seen the Japanese manga and anime creators mangle science and history to make their story work. So my "faith" in their "interpretation" of how human culture works is very low. So it probably works well for their STORY that the humans are still reliant on the Overtechnology, but I do not agree with their interpretation even though I can put aside my differences for the sake of just enjoying the show.
I agree that the humans are nowhere near the level of the PC race, you can't catch up to a race that existed 500,000 yrs ago overnight, and I DO agree that for the captured and repurposed Zentran ships they WOULD keep the original data cores and create user friendly interfaces. Nonetheless, eventually, over time, as the humans gained better understanding of the various systems, especially to the point of creating their own ships using the knowledge they've gained, the systems would be more human in design than Protoculture. So I see no reason that by 2080 or 2092 they humans would still be limiting themselves to using Zentran equipment if they can faithfully reprodcue the data and effects on their own. I agree that they would be combining the different technolgies to see how they interact w/ one another but by 70 -80 yrs after they first encounterd the tech they'd have a pretty solid grasp of what does what and how to make their own systems that can do those things just as well. That's the entire point of reverse engineering a technology, so that eventually you can reproduce it using your tech. The other reason to make your own sytems is the possibilty of losing the source of that tech, and while it may seem that the chance of that happening is slim to none, it is STILL a possbility that the factories they seem to rely on so much could get destroyed and they'd have to be able to build those sytems without them. Then again if they HAVE created human friendly interfaces to link to the Zentran systems then someone could hack those interfaces and use them instead of trying to immediately hack the Zentran code.

[Seto Kaiba]

The problemn is that you are quoting sources I've never seen nor had access to. So I, personally, cannot confirm that is what they said. [...]

To be fair, I could show them to you... but unless you can read Japanese it would probably not do you much good. A very small cross-section of the relevant material was published in the US in English, though the magazine issues are somewhat hard to find now. Some of the info which I've mentioned is in a Macross II feature in Mangazine, though.

I'm NOT accusing you of lying or making things up. I do believe that's what the creators (or other fans) say the magazines say. But quite often I've seen the Japanese manga and anime creators mangle science and history to make their story work.

That's called artistic license... but in this case, the setting makes it entirely justified and they have presented the information consistently across 20+ years of material. Humanity's growing prowess with overtechnology is a major, driving plot point in more than one title as well.

So my "faith" in their "interpretation" of how human culture works is very low. So it probably works well for their STORY that the humans are still reliant on the Overtechnology, but I do not agree with their interpretation even though I can put aside my differences for the sake of just enjoying the show.

Eh... as it's their story, they are the agency which sets the objective value of truth for their work. It's not a question of human culture, but rather one of the feasibility of a military procurement process in a situation where humanity has significant access to technology that far exceeds what they can independently reproduce.

I agree that the humans are nowhere near the level of the PC race, you can't catch up to a race that existed 500,000 yrs ago overnight, and I DO agree that for the captured and repurposed Zentran ships they WOULD keep the original data cores and create user friendly interfaces. Nonetheless, eventually, over time, as the humans gained better understanding of the various systems, especially to the point of creating their own ships using the knowledge they've gained, the systems would be more human in design than Protoculture.

Considering that, in the Macross II setting, humanity's main method of learning about the incredibly advanced science behind overtechnology is analysis and reverse-engineering various captured Zentradi and/or Meltrandi equipment, the process of catching up is going to take the UN Government probably close to as much time as it took the Protoculture to create the stuff to begin with... several thousand years.

I think you genuinely aren't getting the key point here... human overtechnology is, by in large, comparatively crude imitations of the highly refined overtechnology of the Zentradi/Meltrandi. They're not really developing new technologies... they're just building progressively more reliable copies of Zentradi or Meltrandi technology, and applying that technology in ways that the Protoculture never considered doing for the Zentradi or Meltrandi.

Even if humanity is building the computers that are going into their starships instead of using Zentradi or Meltrandi computer systems from a factory satellite, it's extremely unlikely they'd deviate from the systems architectures that've been laid down by the Protoculture. Humans understand how the technology works, but there's a big gulf between knowing how a system works and wastefully trying to reinvent a wheel that was perfected millennia ago. The ships from Macross II may be human in design, but the overtechnology under the "hood" isn't really any different from what's in a Zentradi or Meltrandi ship.

So I see no reason that by 2080 or 2092 they humans would still be limiting themselves to using Zentran equipment if they can faithfully reprodcue the data and effects on their own.

See? This is what I keep pointing out. You're assuming, wrongly, that the Zentradi technology that was perfected by the galaxy's most advanced alien species and rigorously field-tested over half a million years is somehow a LIMITING factor. Even though humanity can build things like fold systems and dimension weapons and reaction power systems, they can't build them at the same, almost impossibly high level of quality and reliability that the Zentradi equipment enjoys. That's why they so often employ Zentradi overtechnology in human designs.

I agree that they would be combining the different technolgies to see how they interact w/ one another but by 70 -80 yrs after they first encounterd the tech they'd have a pretty solid grasp of what does what and how to make their own systems that can do those things just as well.

They had a pretty solid grasp of how many of the technologies they encountered worked a few years before the first space war... they're acquiring new technologies to study all the time, but remember there's a heck of a lot of ground for them to cover and in terms of the time that they invested they've only just scratched the surface.

The other reason to make your own sytems is the possibilty of losing the source of that tech, and while it may seem that the chance of that happening is slim to none, it is STILL a possbility that the factories they seem to rely on so much could get destroyed and they'd have to be able to build those sytems without them. Then again if they HAVE created human friendly interfaces to link to the Zentran systems then someone could hack those interfaces and use them instead of trying to immediately hack the Zentran code.

What makes you assume they have to "hack" Zentradi code? They don't need to reinvent the wheel or "hack" the Zentradi systems. If the crew turns over the ship willingly, there's no need to circumvent any kind of security, and the timeline indicates that's pretty common. Then again, what makes you assume the existing Zentradi interface is NOT human-friendly? The Zentradi aren't that different from humans anatomically or mentally, the only issue is that the interface is in Zentradi. The ONLY necessary change to make the systems accessible to the human members of the crew are some consoles small enough for humans to use, and a patch to the software that displays output and input in English instead of Zentradi. That's not an invasive rewrite, or even all that hard.

[keir451]

Yeah I wish I did read Japanese, I've always wanted to read them, but even if I could they're too hard to find these days.

I think you genuinely aren't getting the key point here... human overtechnology is, by in large, comparatively crude imitations of the highly refined overtechnology of the Zentradi/Meltrandi. They're not really developing new technologies... they're just building progressively more reliable copies of Zentradi or Meltrandi technology, and applying that technology in ways that the Protoculture never considered doing for the Zentradi or Meltrandi.

I DO get the "key points" I just don't agree with them, I'm more focused on the bolded and underlined sections. To me they represent the core of what I see. If they are applying the tech in different ways than the originators did, then they are creating "new" technologies and they're going to have to create new programs to handle those new designs (at least if it even requires programs to controal it at all) and THOSE programs wouldn't be in Zentran or Meltran.

You're assuming, wrongly, that the Zentradi technology that was perfected by the galaxy's most advanced alien species and rigorously field-tested over half a million years is somehow a LIMITING factor.

If they can't reprodcue the tech themeselves then it IS a limiting factor as they are RELIANT on the factory ships to continue to produce that tech. Unless they've got one of the Protoculture race hidden away, and that one person understands fold drives and fold calculations, then yes they are limited to capturing Zentran ships and hoping that something doesn't happen to the factories. So, to me, it makes MORE sense that they'd try to build their own systems using their own understranding. Yeah it's still Overtechnology, but it's human style Overtechnology.

What makes you assume they have to "hack" Zentradi code? They don't need to reinvent the wheel or "hack" the Zentradi systems. If the crew turns over the ship willingly, there's no need to circumvent any kind of security, and the timeline indicates that's pretty common.

I'm not talking about surrendered Zentran vessels, I'm talking about the new UN Spacy ships. The adventure centers ona UN Spacy ships that's been boarded by demons (during Dimensional Outbreak) accidently msifolding (due to demon inteferance, the high levels of diemnsioanl instability in the 3G, etc.) and crash landing on Rifts Earth and a group of CS soldiers having to go in and resue the remaining crew and secure or destroy the ship.
My secondary thought was "What about possible cyber terrorism in the Macross settings?" I recall seeing an old ad for an M2 comic about "Malcontent Uprisings" (?), but I've never read it and as our own tehcnology has changed and things like that do occur IRL I wanted to potentially apply it to any Macross setting. So I was curious about what the creators had to say about the setting and the way humans were handling the tech.

The Zentradi aren't that different from humans anatomically or mentally, the only issue is that the interface is in Zentradi. The ONLY necessary change to make the systems accessible to the human members of the crew are some consoles small enough for humans to use, and a patch to the software that displays output and input in English instead of Zentradi. That's not an invasive rewrite, or even all that hard.

This is true, and is part of the focus of my thoughts. As I said, I can understand that being done on captured Zentran vessels, but when it comes to building a new ship I see things differently. I see the humans rewritng the codes the need into English and writing new codes for any other sections that may not correspond to the original programs. You say "Why go to the trouble?" and I say "Some one would have, even if it was only out of sheer boredom or frustration at having to deal with a "middle man".", because we both know that it probabaly would happen sooner or later. That's not "reinventing the wheel" it's "replacing a Zentran sized wheel with a human sized wheel for human convenience", especially if they are paid or ordered to do it by the UN Spacy. So because I can see that happening, I take the stance that it HAS been done instead of saying "it would never happen".

[ShadowLogan]

I've actually heard some say that they preferred the early Windows program to Vista and many of the recetn "incarnations". Since I started w/Vista I can't really say one way or the other. As for computer ssytems, I'll take anythign that allows me to replace parts w/out having to sned it back to the home company.

I have experience going all the way back to straight DOS (~6.0) as a user upto Win7 (non-inclusive) w/MS OSes. Gripes with each version though take various forms, some objectively valid some not.

The reality is though, you can replace a portion of the components, but even then there are going to be times when you have to send it back in like in the case of a corrupted BIOS (you only get ONE chance to update it correctly, if you screw up it can only be fixed by the manufacturer. At least that is my understanding).

Nonetheless, eventually, over time, as the humans gained better understanding of the various systems, especially to the point of creating their own ships using the knowledge they've gained, the systems would be more human in design than Protoculture

There are several issues here:
1. TIME. You may be overly generous in assessing humanity's ability to understand and reach a level where they are ready to improve the systems to the point the product can be thought of as human.
2. PRODCUTION. Humans only need a minimal set of understanding to produce examples of technology, especially if they have factories capable of producing it given to them.
3. SCALE & LOOKS. Technology(s) involved may be scalable, so even if it appears in outwardly human designs, it may still be largely Protoculture on the inside.

it is STILL a possbility that the factories they seem to rely on so much could get destroyed and they'd have to be able to build those sytems without them.

They could take steps to minimize this possibility though of putting too many eggs in one basket, but the duplicated factory/technology sites doesn't automatically make it into human technology. Even human built factories can be destroyed as they aren't anything special, so there is no reason for this to be a deciding factor.

Then again if they HAVE created human friendly interfaces to link to the Zentran systems then someone could hack those interfaces and use them instead of trying to immediately hack the Zentran code.

That assumes that those interfaces aren't themselves using the same type of code as the main system. The only real thing that human interface offers over Zentran interface is scale w/o question, the software used to run those interfaces may still be handled by the core OS and not a custom device driver.

But quite often I've seen the Japanese manga and anime creators mangle science and history to make their story work.

Manga/Anime creators aren't the only ones who mangle science and history for story purposes.

I recall seeing an old ad for an M2 comic about "Malcontent Uprisings" (?)

I don't think that's an M2 comic, but a Robotech one along with a "Cyber-Pirate" series arc in the 1988-94 period (per RT.com Bibliography), though I am unfamiliar with both series in actual practice, they do have some relationship to the Novels.

http://www.robotech.com/infopedia/bibliography/

see the humans rewritng the codes the need into English and writing new codes for any other sections that may not correspond to the original programs.

First there is no reason to assume they have to have it in English. Humans are capable of learning multiple languages, so I don't see a need for it. You may be hearing english, but that may be for the viewers benefit and not in-universe.

Second, Computer Code isn't in English, sure some of the command words are recognizable as english, but they also have commands that aren't.

Third, just what sections could humans possibly have that wasn't present on the SDF-1 or in Zentraedi ships that they aren't programmed for or have their programming adapted. You are looking at a very small list, if any.

[keir451]

You may be overly generous in assessing humanity's ability to understand and reach a level where they are ready to improve the systems to the point the product can be thought of as human.

Maybe, then again, maybe not. According to the series humans (and Seto's info) humans are constantly making strides in their understanding of the Overtechnology and applying that tech in ways the origianl creators didn't, or so it seems, we really can't say. So I take the route of imagining the BEST instead of just assuming the LEAST.
Macross Frontier seems to imply that there are independant research groups in each fleet each taking the technology in new and (apparently) unexpected routes and both Galaxy and Frontier have sections devoted to research, Macross 7 had dedicated research vessels along with their UN Spacy factory ships. (This by the way answers the question of "Production" for the official Macross timeline.)

SCALE & LOOKS. Technology(s) involved may be scalable, so even if it appears in outwardly human designs, it may still be largely Protoculture on the inside.

Yes, it's still Protoculture "under the hood" as Seto said, no denying that. It's just that it's done according to Terran human understanding of the technology, not Protoculture understanding.

That assumes that those interfaces aren't themselves using the same type of code as the main system. The only real thing that human interface offers over Zentran interface is scale w/o question, the software used to run those interfaces may still be handled by the core OS and not a custom device driver.

That's the thing, we DON'T know, so it's a "fillable gap", and as others haver pointed out Zentran/Protoculutre computer code is "alien", so there would be differences between the computer codes in the Zentran ships and human computer codes so an interface might be needed to bridge those differences making not just matter of scale but a matter of understanding as well. So I see the possibility that someone, either out of boredom, or because they were ordered to, might try and reproduce that code according to human format standards, they may have to conceive of new standards along the way, but for some people that's just more of an incentive to keep going instead of giving up.

I don't think that's an M2 comic, but a Robotech one along with a "Cyber-Pirate" series arc in the 1988-94 period (per RT.com Bibliography), though I am unfamiliar with both series in actual practice, they do have some relationship to the Novels.

139071http://www.robotech.com/infopedia/bibliography/

I wasn't aware of the RT one, but I do recall seeing a first run issue (or spoilers) for an M2 comic that suggeested that Hibiki and Sylvie were investigating a possible Zentran/Meltran uprirising/rebellion in their time line. It was supposed to be after the Marduk left IIRC.
Edit: Found it, it's called "The Micron Conspiracy".
http://www.mycomicshop.com/search?TID=

First there is no reason to assume they have to have it in English. Humans are capable of learning multiple languages, so I don't see a need for it. You may be hearing english, but that may be for the viewers benefit and not in-universe.

While humans are capable of learning other languages, it's also true that not everyone wants to or is good at it. I've tried learning Japanese, but find that I cannot keep up when it gets to full speed conversation. So the interfaces would be in the most common language that everybody speaks/uses, presumably English. Is that arrogant or even presumptous of me to assume that it would be in English? Perhaps, I AM an American, so I tend to think in those terms. Plus if the ASS-1 project were truly an international one I can pretty much guarantee that the U.S. would be tasked with footing the bill and much of the support equipment and that the other countries would then whine and complain about it even though they agreed to it in the first place.

Second, Computer Code isn't in English, sure some of the command words are recognizable as english, but they also have commands that aren't.

True, computer code isn't in English, but (as you said) certain commands are rendered into English for everyday use. In this case I'm guessing that Seto (like myself) was using "English" as a general reference not as how code is actually written.
My thought is more that someone might reproduce the "alien" code into Terran code (using whatever code programs are msot available or whatever they design on the fly)for (again) human convenience and understanding.

Third, just what sections could humans possibly have that wasn't present on the SDF-1 or in Zentraedi ships that they aren't programmed for or have their programming adapted. You are looking at a very small list, if any.

Again, we don't know exactly. As the technology becomes better understood there may be sections that weren't understood on the Macross/SDF-1 but are understood now and thus may be rewritten for human concvenience.

[ShadowLogan]

According to the series humans (and Seto's info) humans are constantly making strides in their understanding of the Overtechnology and applying that tech in ways the origianl creators didn't, or so it seems, we really can't say.

That's still a long way from improving upon the technology. Use it in new ways doesn't make it a new technology per say, all you have done is found new applications for existing technology.

It's just that it's done according to Terran human understanding of the technology, not Protoculture understanding.

True, but the approach doesn't automatically make it terran human. The Protoculture could have abandoned the approach/use long ago (just look at RT's Prelude story, Shadow Technology is revealed to be OLD and LOST per the Haydonite Vedit to Hunter IIRC).

That's the thing, we DON'T know, so it's a "fillable gap", and as others haver pointed out Zentran/Protoculutre computer code is "alien", so there would be differences between the computer codes in the Zentran ships and human computer codes so an interface might be needed to bridge those differences making not just matter of scale but a matter of understanding as well

Unlikely. Those device drivers would still have to be compatible with the alien OS, so externally the hardware may look human but it can and likely is coded for the alien-OS as there is no real need to have it go through an emulator or some other translator program which will reduce response time when they are capable of coding in the alien-language.

I wasn't aware of the RT one, but I do recall seeing a first run issue (or spoilers) for an M2 comic that suggeested that Hibiki and Sylvie were investigating a possible Zentran/Meltran uprirising/rebellion in their time line. It was supposed to be after the Marduk left IIRC.

I wasn't aware that M2 had any comics (I am NOT a big comic buff), but the title you listed initially isn't even close to the M2 title you found and is in fact a reference to a RT series (12 issue run) that I was aware of via the Novels since Mckinney referenced it for Bk19.

Is that arrogant or even presumptous of me to assume that it would be in English?

Currently no. English is the default international language IINM, but it was previously French, and before that... or what it could be in the future...

The thing is the show doesn't have much that is displayed in English IIRC as far as displays go in M2 and RT. That puts a real damper on the idea they used English. They might be using the roman alphabet (as English does), but it is not exclusive to english use either.

My thought is more that someone might reproduce the "alien" code into Terran code (using whatever code programs are msot available or whatever they design on the fly)for (again) human convenience and understanding.

But why? It isn't impossible to learn a new computer programming language. It certainly is much easier when it is based on something you are already familiar with (Basic-family, or C-family), but it doesn't require one to re-write the alien code itself to be more friendly, though you could make the writing process easier (which one can find within the BASIC programing family).

As the technology becomes better understood there may be sections that weren't understood on the Macross/SDF-1 but are understood now and thus may be rewritten for human concvenience.

But if the code is working fine, why change it? And any code changes can result in bugs and other issues that aren't present before.

[Seto Kaiba]

Maybe, then again, maybe not. According to the series humans (and Seto's info) humans are constantly making strides in their understanding of the Overtechnology and applying that tech in ways the origianl creators didn't, or so it seems, we really can't say. So I take the route of imagining the BEST instead of just assuming the LEAST.

It's entirely accurate to say that, in both official Macross universes, humanity is forever improving its understanding of the science behind overtechnology and applying it in the ways that it was originally designed and in somewhat unconventional ways by hybridizing that with other (often conventional) technologies.

My preference, when assessing their progress in doing so, is not to assume at all. I prefer to rely upon solid facts from the shows themselves and the many official publications which the creators have released over the years.

Macross Frontier seems to imply that there are independant research groups in each fleet each taking the technology in new and (apparently) unexpected routes and both Galaxy and Frontier have sections devoted to research, Macross 7 had dedicated research vessels along with their UN Spacy factory ships. [...]

To be fair, it doesn't imply anything... it's a baldly-stated fact that there are quite a few corporations actively involved in overtechnology research. That isn't new, however. It's been that way since DAY ONE. This isn't Robotech... the overtechnology wasn't developed by some secret cabal of military scientists who keep all the knowledge to themselves, all the R&D was done by a multinational research institute called OTEC and corporations around the world. The creators of Macross have gone into such excessive detail that they've identified the major contractors involved in building ships, mecha, and everything else. That did not change after the war... some of the surviving companies merged to form megacorporations, but all the heavy lifting in R&D is being done by independent corporations in both timelines.

Macross Frontier threw a relative newcomer (LAI - Legodt & Angeloni Industries) in with the same old faces (Shinsei Industry, a merger of VF-1 developer Stonewell-Bellcom with the FAST pack developer Shinnakasu Heavy Industries, and General Galaxy, a merger of the post-privatization OTEC with several destroid manufacturers like Centinental). General Galaxy is a front-runner in the adoption of Zentradi overtechnology. Just look at their YF-21/VF-22, the fighter is about half Queadluun-Rau by volume, and they were also responsible for restoration of the Quimeliquola AFS that build the Queadluun-Rau, and their survivability-enhanced version of same.

For the Macross II timeline, the big player is the Takachihoff Corporation, which was the main player in VF development starting during the first space war and up thru the introduction of the Metal Siren in 2092.

EDIT: The research ships in the smaller colony fleets like the 37th Long-Distance Emigrant Fleet "Macross-7" are principally not for overtechnology research. They're mostly for astrophysics, gravitational engineering, and space biology work.

That's the thing, we DON'T know, so it's a "fillable gap", and as others haver pointed out Zentran/Protoculutre computer code is "alien", so there would be differences between the computer codes in the Zentran ships and human computer codes so an interface might be needed to bridge those differences making not just matter of scale but a matter of understanding as well.

The ease with which humanity has been adopting Zentradi overtechnology into their ships and mecha argues strongly for it being entirely easy to incorporate that technology without needing to mess with the software.

I wasn't aware of the RT one, but I do recall seeing a first run issue (or spoilers) for an M2 comic that suggeested that Hibiki and Sylvie were investigating a possible Zentran/Meltran uprirising/rebellion in their time line. It was supposed to be after the Marduk left IIRC.
Edit: Found it, it's called "The Micron Conspiracy". [...]

Yeah, that's not official Macross II material... it was made in the US by Viz Media as part of the "Viz Originals" line, without the knowledge or involvement of Macross II's creators.

Like the Palladium RPG, the Macross II: the Micron Conspiracy comic is not regarded by Big West/Studio Nue as an official Macross product. Also like the Palladium RPG, it gives entirely the wrong date... the Macross II: Lovers Again OVA is set in 2091-2092. IIRC in the RPG it's misstated as 2089, and the non-canon "Micron Conspiracy" comic is set a year after the war, which they incorrectly give as 2090.

While humans are capable of learning other languages, it's also true that not everyone wants to or is good at it.

Remember, postwar human culture is strongly influenced by Japanese culture... and Japanese schools generally make learning a second language (usually English) compulsory. Remember in the first episode, how Hibiki haltingly attempts to speak to Ishtar in Zentradi before giving her that translator? He isn't good at it, but he CAN speak it and make himself understood.

So the interfaces would be in the most common language that everybody speaks/uses, presumably English. Is that arrogant or even presumptous of me to assume that it would be in English?

No, it is not arrogant and presumptuous to assume it would be English, since English WAS the Lingua Franca of the UN Government before the war, and by all evidence continued to be one of the most dominant (if not THE most dominant) human language after the war. The show is presented in Japanese for the convenience of its Japanese audience, but in-universe, they're almost certainly speaking English. The displays are, with the sole exception of Frontier, in English. (Frontier had them bilingual... English and Japanese.) There's little evidence of other languages... except Fire Bomber (explicitly a jrock band) and Sheryl Nome's lipstick note on her dressing room mirror in French.

HOWEVER, we see in both timelines that the Zentradi language is still used... and used by the humans and human military (Hibiki's grasp of Zentradi, the NUNS base on Gallia 4 showing us its reaction warhead stockpile passcode is in Zentradi.)

Perhaps, I AM an American, so I tend to think in those terms. Plus if the ASS-1 project were truly an international one I can pretty much guarantee that the U.S. would be tasked with footing the bill and much of the support equipment and that the other countries would then whine and complain about it even though they agreed to it in the first place.

On THAT, you would be incorrect... it was TRULY international, and the bill and authority were shared by the six biggest partners in the project: the USA, Britain, [West] Germany, Russia [the Soviet Union], France, and Japan. Many other nations were involved in it as well, with the most noteworthy/notorious smaller partner being Israel.

True, computer code isn't in English, but (as you said) certain commands are rendered into English for everyday use. In this case I'm guessing that Seto (like myself) was using "English" as a general reference not as how code is actually written.

It's easy enough to modify the interface of a program to display in different languages... that's something even the most amateur programmers can do with little difficulty. The programming language is not, syntactically or grammatically, English at all... but rather a symbol set that, for convenience's sake, uses English characters. Once the code is compiled into something the hardware can actually USE, it stops looking like anything in English or any other language, and is rendered down into machine-language instruction sets (binary). As long as the humans can develop a compiler that can convert their code into the same machine language format used by the Zentradi hardware, the programming language used to write the code is immaterial.

Again, we don't know exactly. As the technology becomes better understood there may be sections that weren't understood on the Macross/SDF-1 but are understood now and thus may be rewritten for human concvenience.

That... well... that ain't true, I'm afraid. You're thinking Robotech, were humanity didn't really understand anything they'd rebuilt. Palladium made that same mistake in the RPG too.

Humanity understood how the technology they'd rebuilt worked in Macross, even when they were just launching the Macross herself. There's zero mention of them having to figure out technologies on the Macross years after the fact.

[keir451]

Seto,
Thanks again for filling in my blanks! I, too, usually like to use the actual info when I do things, but as I typically only have access to the RPG I have to make guesses.
Yeah I saw on the site that Micron Conspiracy wasn't official, but I wanted to use it as a possible example anyway. The issues surrounding Sheryl's manager and the rogue Zentran in frontier may serve as official examples of internal cyber terrorism/warfare.

The ease with which humanity has been adopting Zentradi Overtechnology into their ships and mecha argues strongly for it being entirely easy to incorporate that technology without needing to mess with the software.

"Argues strongly", but is it official? Or is that another one of our assumptions? Or is it one of the creator's assumptions, something they did to make it more palatable to their target audience?

postwar human culture is strongly influenced by Japanese culture

Is that from the material you've read or from somewhere else or is it the creator's ideas again? Why would post war human culture be so strongly influenced by Japanese culture? What was the demographic breakdown of the population onboard the ship?

The show is presented in Japanese for the convenience of its Japanese audience...

That's kinda a given, but also what I felt was the problem (at least for me) I don't look at the show the same way the creator's do. They look at it through the lens of their culture while I look at it through the lens of my culture. I prefer concrete answers, not just "point defense weapons x many". Does "many" mean hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands?

Humanity understood how the technology they'd rebuilt worked in Macross, even when they were just launching the Macross herself. There's zero mention of them having to figure out technologies on the Macross years after the fact.

See for me that's part of it, if they understood the technology so well, why do they need to continue to use Zentran Overtechnology programs? "Because it's there" doesn't sastisfy me, IF they truly understood the tech that well then there's no barrier to them reproducing it in their "own" code. As you said;

Once the code is compiled into something the hardware can actually USE, it stops looking like anything in English or any other language, and is rendered down into machine-language instruction sets (binary).

So it wouldn't matter if the code were rendered into "Terran code" vs "Zentran code" so long as the instructions are something the hardware can use.
And if their understanding of the technology is that good then they can recreate the hardware too, so even that's not an issue.

[Seto Kaiba]

Seto,
Thanks again for filling in my blanks! I, too, usually like to use the actual info when I do things, but as I typically only have access to the RPG I have to make guesses.

You may find it informative to track down Mecha Press issue 7 and that Macross II featured issue for Mangazine. Those two had portions of the large featured article from B-Club Magazine #79, which was the "big reveal" of the Macross II timeline and an impressive volume of information about the setting for same.

Yeah I saw on the site that Micron Conspiracy wasn't official, but I wanted to use it as a possible example anyway.

It makes a pretty bad example, since the sabotage was the work of military insiders in that version...

The issues surrounding Sheryl's manager and the rogue Zentran in frontier may serve as official examples of internal cyber terrorism/warfare.

At that point, it's not really internal anymore... the individual colonies are effectively their own semi-independent city-states in space after the reorganization of the government a decade or so prior. Even then, it's only in the movie version where there's any evidence of any kind of a plot against Frontier itself rather than just Grace messing people around for the lulz. There're no rogue Zentradi in Frontier though, just a disgruntled New UN Spacy Marines unit... the 33rd Marines.

"Argues strongly", but is it official? Or is that another one of our assumptions? Or is it one of the creator's assumptions, something they did to make it more palatable to their target audience?

I'd say it's pretty official... we know that VFs have sometimes had seriously complex systems taken directly out of Zentradi mecha dropped into them with no issues. The YF-21/VF-22 and its use of the Queadluun-Rau's IVCS is a great example.

postwar human culture is strongly influenced by Japanese culture

Is that from the material you've read or from somewhere else or is it the creator's ideas again? Why would post war human culture be so strongly influenced by Japanese culture? What was the demographic breakdown of the population onboard the ship?

Even if you've only got a passing familiarity with Japanese culture, the Japanese cultural bias shown in the series is pretty obvious. Obviously it's that way so it'll be familiar to the show's target audience in Japan, but it makes sense when you consider that South Ataria island was pretty close to Japan geographically and in an island chain governed by Japan (it's a fictional southernmost island in the Bonin Islands).

It shows pretty prominently in their presentation of schools, certain social relationships, and most blatantly in Milia's attempts to marry Mylene off in Macross 7. Why would Mylene, whose father is from Oceania (implied to be German) and whose mother is Zentradi have an omiai (a Japanese practice of introducing two potential spouses for an arranged marriage) or attend same in a kimono? Moreover, one of the only two religions referenced in the universe after the first war is Japanese Shinto-Buddhism.

I prefer concrete answers, not just "point defense weapons x many". Does "many" mean hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands?

By necessity, the level of detail varies between designs depending on how prominently they'll appear in the series.

See for me that's part of it, if they understood the technology so well, why do they need to continue to use Zentran Overtechnology programs? "Because it's there" doesn't sastisfy me, IF they truly understood the tech that well then there's no barrier to them reproducing it in their "own" code.

I would think the answer would be obvious... it's "because the Zentradi programs have half a million years of proven reliability behind them". "Because we can" is not a good enough reason to reinvent the wheel when you have a solution that works perfectly right in front of you. As they have access to the factory satellites that make the hardware, it'd be easier to adapt the existing Zentradi software to add new functionality, delete unneeded functionality, etc.

So it wouldn't matter if the code were rendered into "Terran code" vs "Zentran code" so long as the instructions are something the hardware can use.
And if their understanding of the technology is that good then they can recreate the hardware too, so even that's not an issue.

Whether the high-level code is written in whatever programming language the Protoculture used or something humans kludged together doesn't matter... if the architecture's the same, it's still going to be compiled into the same low-level code used by the Zentradi hardware when all is said and done.

[keir451]

OK, Thanks again Seto. That pretty much answers all my questions on that which is about what i figured. If your interested I've a book you can look you called "A Geek in Japan" it's well written and informative (plus just a fun read!)
In the end I still disagree with the concept of using Zentran data cores just because they're there and "proven", if that really were the case IRL we'd never have anything new. But hey, that's life!

C'yall laters and have fun gaming!!