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Glad to see we're all on the same page.

Though in doing so, my pedantic side is coming out, to note that it won't be 1.4m in product. Remember, it's shipping in two waves. Though Wave 1 will have approximately 7,000 core boxes, with an MSRP of $100 apiece... wait, that's nearly $700,000 in core boxes alone. Plus each Battle Cry equivalent (approximately 6,500 of them, give or take a few based on backers that failed to pay up and people who upgraded during the pledge manager) has another $265 or so (MSRP) of expansion boxes, which... break out the calculator...

O.o

Um, Wave 1 will consist of approximately 2.4 million dollars in product. Again, at full MSRP, but even at a hefty 20-40% off retail discount, it's still a metric crapload of product.

I was going to say it's not the full value. I'm wrong. It's nearly double the value of what they brought in.

Now, obviously that's not what they are paying to get it. It's a ton of money, but that's how retail works. Generally a 100% markup or so, so say the wholesale price is half that, it's still about 1.2 million dollars in product.

Yeah, I'd say there's a vested interest in nothing happening to it.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Carolina's have humidity and break 100. That's hot enough for me.

Point being that they're alot hotter than it is 1000 miles north here in MI. It gets warm up here and only hot a few days a year.

Neither one is in Kuwait, but yes you'd be correct in that it doesn't get to 130 in the Carolina's but pretty much when you break 100 it's 'hot.'.

Anyway, I would hope as well, that the plastic wouldn't be baking in the trailer in direct sunlight, but that's exactly the sort of situation that's been out lined by a few above. I.E. if the trailer is dropped off and loaded with all 5000+ boxes, then yes, the boxes will be in the metal trailer for days if not weeks in the middle of summer. Depending on which number's your using, they're only loading a few 100 to 400 a day, and if the trailer sat there for the entire length instead of daily pick ups then you'd be looking at 2 weeks or so, with 4 people working non stop, 8 hour days, 5 days a week. If they don't have 4 people working at that (totally estimated!) Rate, the sit time would extend.

That's why someone pointed out, "Hey don't forget this is in the middle of summer and it might not be a good idea to stack up a million, four in product, in plastic pieces in a metal trailer for a week." lol.

If "Heat" is an issue, what the real question is what day of the week they ship it in. Wine during the summer only ships Monday through Wednesday. Nobody wants their wine to cook at a sorting facility over the weekend. If this is the case, I'd expect Palladium to pack daily (and store within the warehouse), and only load on Monday through Wednesday with daily pickups on those days.

Well, I imagine plastic is a bit more resilient than wine, but yes, if it's a significant concern, that'd be a sensible way of doing things. Big burst of packages out on Monday, whatever they can do Tues and Wed, then 2 days to build up another bunch (4 if people happen to be willing to work weekends, not taken as a given, but if they're using volunteer help, weekends may actually be best for some who have day to day jobs or school).

All told, it'll be a significant undertaking requiring a lot of man hours to pull off in a reasonably expedient fashion, but they've got 3-4 months until it's an issue, so that should be lots of time to start figuring out contingencies and best practices.

The key, imo, is to be able to evaluate the process and be able to figure out adjustments as the days go by. If something isn't working, then it should be tweaked to work better. I sincerely hope we don't get "so this is totally hard, and we've hit some snags, but we're powering through it" style updates. With this scope and scale of an endeavor, it's as much about working smarter as it is about working harder.

When you are moving packages into a trailer it doesn't take long so I could see them doing it daily if not multiple times a day if they have enough of the load built up ahead of time before the trailer gets there. I see no need for any of the parts to sit in a truck for days at the warehouse, once the pallets are loaded it can just take off. Depending on how they plan it it could work quickly enough, but I fear for the volunteer that drops a pallet of peoples packages ready for shipping.

Yeah, either having a trailer to load that's snagged at the end of the day or just having a scheduled pickup seem like the most straightforward approach. Nothing is left there for very long, people's packages get moving, a win all around, assuming the costs line up appropriately.

Dropping a box would be bad, though in my experience plastic is light and strong enough that it's unlikely they'd shatter dramatically. Wyrd's plastic crew/figure kits also have foam inside to keep the sprues from moving around much and protect against a little mishandling, so while I wouldn't recommend kicking boxes around to pass them over, even that might not be the end of the world.

At this point it's all speculation any way we look at it. They might pack um all up and store them in the werehouse untill all 5000 are ready to go out and load them all in a day or something. We don't know.

What we do know, is the packing and shipping of 5,000+ boxes of product worth $100s each is going to be a huge undertaking and one that represents a huge huge investment, both in money and in manhours.

That's what we 'know'.

Having volunteers off the street being a part of that, is.... risky. That's what --I-- think. As pointed out above, what happens when a volunteer you aren't paying knocks over a stack worth $10,000 and the boxes crash into the ground and you hear that sickening snapping of teny tiny plastic sprews?

What happens if one of those volunteers falls in the warehouse and aren't your employees? Or heaven forbid is under that stack of boxes when it topples over? We're not talking about a person walking through, picking up a few books and walking out. We're talking about people -working- for hours and hours. 5000+ boxes of product that needs to be shipped out. And that's if they only deliver what has been 'ordered' with no extra or stock to 'sell' later. Does their insurance cover 'volunteers' if one was injured or are they looking at lawsuit? Is the product in the warehouse insured if someone not on staff ... knocks over the stack worth 10 grand?

This just seems very risky to me.

All fair points.

Hopefully their insurance premiums are paid up. Maybe some waivers get signed. Make sure the volunteers aren't the ones doing any heavy lifting, etc.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Having volunteers off the street being a part of that, is.... risky. That's what --I-- think. As pointed out above, what happens when a volunteer you aren't paying knocks over a stack worth $10,000 and the boxes crash into the ground and you hear that sickening snapping of teny tiny plastic sprews?

You know - I'd agree with you on this. Except that Kevin has used Volunteers off and on for years. I am sure he will get them to sign waivers, ndr's, and what not.

Even though I am not keen on some of the business practices that Palladium does (like PDF's), I don't believe Kevin is a flat out idiot. And he is good at covering his rear.

To that, I again reply. "There's a difference between putting a 1lb book in a box, worth $15 to $30 even 100 times, and 5000+ boxes of plastic sprews, worth $250 to $1000s per box" I'm not sure that the volunteers over the years ever packed actual boxes and shipments to customers. I know they've helped them move and set up for cons and stuff, but I'm not sure I remember. "Here, come in and help us mail out $1,400,000 worth of stuff!!" lol

Even with conservative estimates, of 4 people working 8 hour days and doubling estimated speed packing per box you're still talking weeks. And lets be honest here, volunteers aren't coming to volunteer for weeks of 8 hour days. You're looking at a few hours after work here or there, or maybe a full weekend. Even then, there are going to be limits to how long non paid people are going to work straight through packing boxes in a warehouse. It'd be fun for a while and joking around and what not, but each of those orders represents $100s to $1000s in product. You kinda really want people dialed in for that kinda stuff. NOT joking or having fun. You leave off one guy's Battlecry and he's going to hit the internet with a Battlecry. You do it to 5 people because your unpaid volunteers are there having fun and laughing and cutting up while they pack boxes and the internet is soon aflame with complaints.

Heck there are multiple You Tube videos out there -now- about this kickstarter. Very very very angry ones. The deployment is already being cut in two, months apart and each months late. You do --not-- want to botch the shipping, too.

I don't know. Heck I'm not even sure how I'd 'fix' it. I'm just saying they need to be really really careful with this, as it's froght with risk and danger

Yeah, they really need to be 100% on the ball for this one. There's already been enough angst, venom and frustration shared. If I cracked my box open expecting 8 Battle Cry's worth of stuff and found 7, I'd be a very, very unhappy backer.

And more importantly, shipping me the missing Battle Cry would be prohibitively expensive. They have a very vested interest, particularly with the international orders, to get it right the first time. As in, I hope their packing procedure includes at least 1 extra person (beyond the packer and whatever QA they have) checking the work. An extra minute or two on those boxes could save them untold time and money on fixes.

makes a lot of sense. I hope they really think before delivering loads of packages in the hottest months of summer.

Larry A wrote:What I find most amusing....assuming I end up getting an order AND that Palladium makes their shipping schedule, by their schedule and what mine looks like, they will probably end up with my box sitting on a porch where the thermometer will read in excess of 100 degrees F virtually every day. If I happen to not be home that day or even that afternoon....you see why I'm real interested in their return policy.

Well wouldn't that aspect be on you? If the items are delivered in good faith and you leave them to sit in 100+ degree weather on the porch, that's your side of things. Sorta like it's not Palladium's fault if you leave the box sitting on the porch for hours and it's stolen off the porch.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Larry A wrote:What I find most amusing....assuming I end up getting an order AND that Palladium makes their shipping schedule, by their schedule and what mine looks like, they will probably end up with my box sitting on a porch where the thermometer will read in excess of 100 degrees F virtually every day. If I happen to not be home that day or even that afternoon....you see why I'm real interested in their return policy.

Well wouldn't that aspect be on you? If the items are delivered in good faith and you leave them to sit in 100+ degree weather on the porch, that's your side of things. Sorta like it's not Palladium's fault if you leave the box sitting on the porch for hours and it's stolen off the porch.

I'm not sure if it helps but the package will likely arrive at the earliest in late August/September from the looks of it assuming no further unforseen delays (as opposed to the giant forseen delay of gencon eating up 3 weeks typically).

Pepsi Jedi wrote:To be honest, 10 minutes PER package seems a bit much, I think I could pack one in 5 if I were doing it and getting paid but I haven't done so for professional work. But using the equation above 10 minutes per package would be 48 packages a day, for an 8 hour work day. That seems a bit light.

Actually, in the discussion, I found 10 minutes to be potentially underestimated. The components are all likely to come in bulk batches, and flat. Sure, some of the below will be done in batches to speed things up, but it's still dedicated time.

- First off, you'll have to assemble the First Contact/Battle Cry boxes. It's unlikely they'll arrive assembled (shipping would be HUGE). They'll be scored, and can be done quickly, but it's still a chore.
- Then you've got to get the dice*. Hopefully they're bagged in groups of 12.
- Same with the Command Tokens*.
- Then grab a template, a pack of transfers* (assuming they bag them together), a rulebook, and the KS art.
- Then grab a pack of game cards*, hopefully pre-configured in packs for BattleCry.
- Then comes the first real time consuming bit. Grab 27+ sprues (I factored in Veris in 3 forms to a sprue, Command Pack to a Sprue, All 4 Destroids paired, Regults three to a sprue, and Arty as singles, and given the Arty's are single, that 27 could be woefully short), from their piles, and physically check them for obvious abnormalities.
- Then comes the second time consuming bit, having someone else check the components, and pack them into the box.
- Then you have to box up the correct number of BC's, check that there aren't any additional purchases (people getting extra Destroids), add them to the order, seal up the box, and slap the shipping sticker on it.

* If the dice/Command Tokens/Transfers/Game Cards are sent to PB loose and unbatched, 10 minutes is going to be nothing but wishful thinking.

Sure, there is some streamlining that could be done, and if you were doing a single one, you could put some effort in. But doing this for day after day, potentially week after week, speed will slow.

Because as it stands, shipping is going to be a huge expense. Doing it twice doesn't help. Making a mistake in any of the above steps means doing it a third (or if problems arise with Wave 2, fourth) time. As it stands, I'm estimating a third of my pledge, maybe as high as a half, is going to be spent on shipping for two waves. I don't think they can afford to spend much more and not be losing out.

Or, they could just give me a refund.

Morgan Vening wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:To be honest, 10 minutes PER package seems a bit much, I think I could pack one in 5 if I were doing it and getting paid but I haven't done so for professional work. But using the equation above 10 minutes per package would be 48 packages a day, for an 8 hour work day. That seems a bit light.

Actually, in the discussion, I found 10 minutes to be potentially underestimated. The components are all likely to come in bulk batches, and flat. Sure, some of the below will be done in batches to speed things up, but it's still dedicated time.

- First off, you'll have to assemble the First Contact/Battle Cry boxes. It's unlikely they'll arrive assembled (shipping would be HUGE). They'll be scored, and can be done quickly, but it's still a chore.
- Then you've got to get the dice*. Hopefully they're bagged in groups of 12.
- Same with the Command Tokens*.
- Then grab a template, a pack of transfers* (assuming they bag them together), a rulebook, and the KS art.
- Then grab a pack of game cards*, hopefully pre-configured in packs for BattleCry.
- Then comes the first real time consuming bit. Grab 27+ sprues (I factored in Veris in 3 forms to a sprue, Command Pack to a Sprue, All 4 Destroids paired, Regults three to a sprue, and Arty as singles, and given the Arty's are single, that 27 could be woefully short), from their piles, and physically check them for obvious abnormalities.
- Then comes the second time consuming bit, having someone else check the components, and pack them into the box.
- Then you have to box up the correct number of BC's, check that there aren't any additional purchases (people getting extra Destroids), add them to the order, seal up the box, and slap the shipping sticker on it.

* If the dice/Command Tokens/Transfers/Game Cards are sent to PB loose and unbatched, 10 minutes is going to be nothing but wishful thinking.

Sure, there is some streamlining that could be done, and if you were doing a single one, you could put some effort in. But doing this for day after day, potentially week after week, speed will slow.

Because as it stands, shipping is going to be a huge expense. Doing it twice doesn't help. Making a mistake in any of the above steps means doing it a third (or if problems arise with Wave 2, fourth) time. As it stands, I'm estimating a third of my pledge, maybe as high as a half, is going to be spent on shipping for two waves. I don't think they can afford to spend much more and not be losing out.

Or, they could just give me a refund.

Wait a minute you say Palladium is going to be doing the packaging? I thought Palladium was smart enough to get a packager to do the packaging, if Palladium does it, I got a very bad feeling about this.

Asterios wrote:Wait a minute you say Palladium is going to be doing the packaging? I thought Palladium was smart enough to get a packager to do the packaging, if Palladium does it, I got a very bad feeling about this.

That's what's been inferred. It's POSSIBLE that they'll be delivered in "Battle Cry" boxes. But that'll increase production and shipping costs substantially.

Morgan Vening wrote:

Asterios wrote:Wait a minute you say Palladium is going to be doing the packaging? I thought Palladium was smart enough to get a packager to do the packaging, if Palladium does it, I got a very bad feeling about this.

That's what's been inferred. It's POSSIBLE that they'll be delivered in "Battle Cry" boxes. But that'll increase production and shipping costs substantially.

I really have a bad feeling about this, a really bad feeling.

Don't forget there Han Solo...that they plan on having volunteers packing and helping to ship those goods. Not professional packers and shippers. Well unless you include the 6 staff at Palladium as professional packers and shippers...I really hadn't thought of that one.

Now I have a really bad feeling about this. That didn't help J man.

I had assumed that the Battle Cry Boxes would arrive assembled. If they have to assemble every element of every box of every order.... .well. I'm glad NG2 is done...

I had assumed the core boxes would be pre-assembled, but Morgan makes a fine point about that increasing shipping costs significantly (the components in large crates or whatnot would be far more space efficient than a giant pile of core boxes and all the empty space they'll contain.

Jorel wrote:Don't forget there Han Solo...that they plan on having volunteers packing and helping to ship those goods. Not professional packers and shippers. Well unless you include the 6 staff at Palladium as professional packers and shippers...I really hadn't thought of that one.

You do realize your not helping my peace of mind here.

Why would I care about your peace of mind when you constantly disrupt others with your constant Fox News drama chicken little comments all the time?

Jorel/Asterios

Guys no need to fight. Remeber it's PB that has us up in arms about being lied to when it comes to time estimates and even more egregious the quality of the miniatures. We were promised mouth watering when we got instead some cheap 90's model. Let's not lose track here of what's really important. We've all seen how PB doesn't listen to what the fans want. We should concentrate our efforts to help Kevin realize that what he's doing for RRT is wrong in some ways. At least when it comes to the model quality.

Rick is as much of a problem as their poor business decisions.

Jorel wrote:Rick is as much of a problem as their poor business decisions.

lets agree to disagree shall we ?

until you stop with all the crazy drama, I don't really plan on it. Your made up statistics trying to act like you know what 64% of the Backers want cemented that.

Jorel wrote:until you stop with all the crazy drama, I don't really plan on it. Your made up statistics trying to act like you know what 64% of the Backers want cemented that.

not made up, but based on facts available.

more to the point you have any evidence to deny it?

you can cry the sky is falling all you want but only time will tell what is really gonna happen.

The point is, it's more than the alleged 1% that's not happy with PB dog an pony show. Even I'm fed up with PB. Jorel he's not harming anyone. I mean it not like it's hurting PB. Let's face it PB has been doing a fantasic job of that on their own. In fact it's the only thing they seem to get right.

He is bugging the crap out of me and it makes it difficult to be patient when you have people like him crying foul at every turn. None of us are really happy with the progress, but crying about it constantly just makes it worse...not better.

It's no better than trolls who ask the mods to move threads. I mean were all complaining about PB. All he does is give voice to that which some of us think but don't say.

I think that some of the RRT $macross was used to keep PB solvent and to finish the disasters NG-1/2. I have no proof, so I don't say anything. But let's be real here. PB has pulled some BS that PB is now known to all the gaming community and industry in a very negative way. The other day I was at my FLGS when some kid brought up PB. The other kid he spoke to convinced him to try out another RPG line instead. That's when I interjected and helped explain why it would be better to try other RPG lines. I'm not going to lie and say it's all good when it's not. Last year I would have told the kid to buy as many PB products as he can get. Very sad

They didn't need money to finish those books. He sells enough books to pay himself to write the books we payed him twice over to write. He didn't use RRT money for that. Your as bad as Rick is with the rumor mongering if your gonna go that route.

Though to be fair I bet they have paid themselves for the work put into RRT and I have no clue how much that might be.

Jorel wrote:They didn't need money to finish those books. He sells enough books to pay himself to write the books we payed him twice over to write. He didn't use RRT money for that. Your as bad as Rick is with the rumor mongering if your gonna go that route.

Really between your flip floping your not helping things either J man. That tender moment you had with Wayne on FB didn't do you any favors either.

I don't need to make PB look bad they do enough of that on their own, so I don't need to "rumor monger".

Just remember, he like many of us aren't used to PB shenanigans so you gotta be a bit patient. In GW circles were allowed to speak our mind without it devolving into what I see here on the PB forums. Think of it this way. When RRT finally hits retail most of us will go away so we won't have to deal with PB and the BS it entails and everything can go back to normal until the next CoT.

Gonna be a long road to getting all our stuff with @Ricks News crying the sky is falling constantly til we get our stuff in 2015. I'm sure you'll be just as sick of it by then if he can manage to maintain his current level of Terror Level alert comments.

The messed up thing is Zero may have had some valid points. If I call PB again I'll have to record it just in case. Then again I wouldn't be rude either. But considering human nature it wouldn't surprise me if there's some kernel of truth when he said that a PB associate said "we backers don't know anything and we should be grateful." I say this only because of the way PB has been condescending in many of their updates.

I think there was validity about some of what Zero said. I think it also likely he was rude and insulting on the phone. I'm sure it would be hard for a lot of backers not to be at this point. Either way it was clear that if you call there and say you are going on the KS page to trash them they will have a reason to post there. Defensive or damage control or whatever. It doesn't make them want to sift through those hostile posts any more than they did when there were 300 and not 1500+ worth of posts to sort out. They do other jobs so unfortunately they likely don't have the time you or I might to go through that much stuff.

Looks like now I know what I'll be doing Monday morning. Then again with the way PB is being bashed around the net including their own ks it might not work.

What I don't get is how every time someone has a complaint about PB there's always someone quick to come up with an excuse for PB.

No, only a select group of people. Youll quickly figure out who they are.