Forums of the Megaverse®

Jerell wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:Being someone who funded this kickstarter, I'm more than happy with the ammount of information that has been provided and I'm pleased with all the models we've seen so far. I'm not the one complaining about the product and I already wished you luck on any legal matters involving this.

Very reasonable. My view of this matter is in line with The Galactus Kid.

ND needs some more time? S'okay with me. For the most part, my expectations are being met. Best wishes to all.

Thanks Jerell. DOn't get me wrong, I can see how some people may be upset regarding the progress, but the ends that some people seem to be going to given the updates we have been given is astounding to me. It takes all kinds though, so to each his own.

Jerell wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:Being someone who funded this kickstarter, I'm more than happy with the ammount of information that has been provided and I'm pleased with all the models we've seen so far. I'm not the one complaining about the product and I already wished you luck on any legal matters involving this.

Very reasonable. My view of this matter is in line with The Galactus Kid.

ND needs some more time? S'okay with me. For the most part, my expectations are being met. Best wishes to all.

ND can't say anything because of PB.

For 1/285 scale, yes their fine as models. I'm not happy because I thought we were getting miniatures instead. Glad to see at least 1% of backers are happy.

The Galactus Kid wrote:

Jerell wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:Being someone who funded this kickstarter, I'm more than happy with the ammount of information that has been provided and I'm pleased with all the models we've seen so far. I'm not the one complaining about the product and I already wished you luck on any legal matters involving this.

Very reasonable. My view of this matter is in line with The Galactus Kid.

ND needs some more time? S'okay with me. For the most part, my expectations are being met. Best wishes to all.

Thanks Jerell. DOn't get me wrong, I can see how some people may be upset regarding the progress, but the ends that some people seem to be going to given the updates we have been given is astounding to me. It takes all kinds though, so to each his own.

its is because of the updates or the lack there of that has turned almost 64% of the backers against Palladium books with another 17% holding out in hopes that Palladium will not screw up their next update if they even put out one.

I'd like to know where Rick gets his numbers.

Jorel wrote:I'd like to know where Rick gets his numbers.

I bet you would

Kryptt wrote:

Jerell wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:Being someone who funded this kickstarter, I'm more than happy with the ammount of information that has been provided and I'm pleased with all the models we've seen so far. I'm not the one complaining about the product and I already wished you luck on any legal matters involving this.

Very reasonable. My view of this matter is in line with The Galactus Kid.

ND needs some more time? S'okay with me. For the most part, my expectations are being met. Best wishes to all.

ND can't say anything because of PB.

For 1/285 scale, yes their fine as models. I'm not happy because I thought we were getting miniatures instead. Glad to see at least 1% of backers are happy.

Positive waves man. Maybe it's just my 'old' platoon sergeant mentality, but you gotta think positive. This wouldn't be the first time I've been part of a 1% in for the long haul, and I'd still be part of those 1% if I had to do it again. Game on.

Jerell wrote:

Kryptt wrote:

Jerell wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:Being someone who funded this kickstarter, I'm more than happy with the ammount of information that has been provided and I'm pleased with all the models we've seen so far. I'm not the one complaining about the product and I already wished you luck on any legal matters involving this.

Very reasonable. My view of this matter is in line with The Galactus Kid.

ND needs some more time? S'okay with me. For the most part, my expectations are being met. Best wishes to all.

ND can't say anything because of PB.

For 1/285 scale, yes their fine as models. I'm not happy because I thought we were getting miniatures instead. Glad to see at least 1% of backers are happy.

Positive waves man. Maybe it's just my 'old' platoon sergeant mentality, but you gotta think positive. This wouldn't be the first time I've been part of a 1% in for the long haul, and I'd still be part of those 1% if I had to do it again. Game on.

Well 1% of say 5,000 would amount to 50 backers are happy, sadly most of those 50 backers have only committed to $1 "I pledged" pledge or the "Rick Hunter" pledge, from what has been seen many of the backers who committed a large sum of money hundred or more dollars is not happy right now with Palladium books.

I'm glad you asked all 5,000 people their opinion and gathered comprehensive data instead of making gross assumptions and misrepresentations of facts. I must have missed my e-mail.

I'm into it for 192 USD if it makes you feel any better old boy.

Asterios wrote:

Jorel wrote:I'd like to know where Rick gets his numbers.

I bet you would

nobody knows what 64% of the backers want because they aren't speaking. You are claiming to know what 3418 of 5342 of the backers are turning against Palladium. That is clearly untrue. If you want to be believed you need to use realistic assumptions.

Jorel wrote:

Asterios wrote:

Jorel wrote:I'd like to know where Rick gets his numbers.

I bet you would

nobody knows what 64% of the backers want because they aren't speaking. You are claiming to know what 3418 of 5342 of the backers are turning against Palladium. That is clearly untrue. If you want to be believed you need to use realistic assumptions.

Realistic assumptions is based on the number of backers who have voiced their displeasure vs. the number of backers who have voiced their pleasure, albeit the numbers have gone more towards displeasure since my tally in the past couple of days with more and more backers finally finding their voice to say PB talk to us or to tell PB where they can go.

Asterios wrote:

Jerell wrote:

Kryptt wrote:

Jerell wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:Being someone who funded this kickstarter, I'm more than happy with the ammount of information that has been provided and I'm pleased with all the models we've seen so far. I'm not the one complaining about the product and I already wished you luck on any legal matters involving this.

Very reasonable. My view of this matter is in line with The Galactus Kid.

ND needs some more time? S'okay with me. For the most part, my expectations are being met. Best wishes to all.

ND can't say anything because of PB.

For 1/285 scale, yes their fine as models. I'm not happy because I thought we were getting miniatures instead. Glad to see at least 1% of backers are happy.

Positive waves man. Maybe it's just my 'old' platoon sergeant mentality, but you gotta think positive. This wouldn't be the first time I've been part of a 1% in for the long haul, and I'd still be part of those 1% if I had to do it again. Game on.

Well 1% of say 5,000 would amount to 50 backers are happy, sadly most of those 50 backers have only committed to $1 "I pledged" pledge or the "Rick Hunter" pledge, from what has been seen many of the backers who committed a large sum of money hundred or more dollars is not happy right now with Palladium books.

the more you make up stuff with numbers the more you start sounding the most ridiculous. Even worse than on the KS Update comments. How do you know who the $1 backers are? Were you one?

Asterios wrote:

Jorel wrote:

Asterios wrote:

Jorel wrote:I'd like to know where Rick gets his numbers.

I bet you would

nobody knows what 64% of the backers want because they aren't speaking. You are claiming to know what 3418 of 5342 of the backers are turning against Palladium. That is clearly untrue. If you want to be believed you need to use realistic assumptions.

Realistic assumptions is based on the number of backers who have voiced their displeasure vs. the number of backers who have voiced their pleasure, albeit the numbers have gone more towards displeasure since my tally in the past couple of days with more and more backers finally finding their voice to say PB talk to us or to tell PB where they can go.

Again you are pulling numbers out of your arse to try make a case. None of that fantasy is realistic.

Jorel wrote:

Asterios wrote:

Well 1% of say 5,000 would amount to 50 backers are happy, sadly most of those 50 backers have only committed to $1 "I pledged" pledge or the "Rick Hunter" pledge, from what has been seen many of the backers who committed a large sum of money hundred or more dollars is not happy right now with Palladium books.

the more you make up stuff with numbers the more you start sounding the most ridiculous. Even worse than on the KS Update comments. How do you know who the $1 backers are? Were you one?

No I invested quite a larger sum then that, by several hundred dollars more.

you don't know what any $1 backer thinks then. Positive or negative. You are making stuff up.

Jorel wrote:

Asterios wrote:

Jorel wrote:

Asterios wrote:

Jorel wrote:I'd like to know where Rick gets his numbers.

I bet you would

nobody knows what 64% of the backers want because they aren't speaking. You are claiming to know what 3418 of 5342 of the backers are turning against Palladium. That is clearly untrue. If you want to be believed you need to use realistic assumptions.

Realistic assumptions is based on the number of backers who have voiced their displeasure vs. the number of backers who have voiced their pleasure, albeit the numbers have gone more towards displeasure since my tally in the past couple of days with more and more backers finally finding their voice to say PB talk to us or to tell PB where they can go.

Again you are pulling numbers out of your arse to try make a case. None of that fantasy is realistic.

really then all those polls where they poll like 100 people is not based in fact? somebody tell Family Feud they are lying.

as too the $1 backers, a few have already (3) said that's what they backed and they are happy with Palladium.

Whats wrong Jorel hate the fact you like spouting nonsense and nobody believes it?

I'm not sure why you continue with your made up statistics. It is clear they aren't well thought out.

Jorel wrote:I'm not sure why you continue with your made up statistics. It is clear they aren't well thought out.

oh very well thought out and accounted for, you can keep denying the truth but it is there to see, hell in just the last update alone almost a dozen new backers voiced their displeasure at Palladium.

your reading the comments of less than 100 backers on the KS pages does not equate you knowing what 3418 of 5342 of the backers are thinking or want. You are making yourself look silly by claiming you know that. Find a better route.

The numbers he is presenting are no more or less accurate than the Palladium open house poll results.

I never said the Open House poll was valid. Kevin looks just as silly for posting that.

That wasn't directed at you necessarily as your post appeared while I pecked mine into the tablet.

I still think it was a silly sneaky poll that Open House poll.

Jorel wrote:your reading the comments of less than 100 backers on the KS pages does not equate you knowing what 3418 of 5342 of the backers are thinking or want. You are making yourself look silly by claiming you know that. Find a better route.

its like basing what % of a country thinks based on a % of the people asked, if out of 100 people polled and 64 say were mad, 17 say were not happy but hoping and 19 say were happy, then %'s are based on what is known.

I had a Commander back in 'the day' that would say something to the effect of over 70% of statistics are made up on the spot. I'm no expert by any means on that subject, but sometimes, that number seems legit to me. Recently, I think I know why.

bielmic wrote:The numbers he is presenting are no more or less accurate than the Palladium open house poll results.

These two things are unrelated. The validity of one is not dependent on the other.

The Galactus Kid wrote:

bielmic wrote:The numbers he is presenting are no more or less accurate than the Palladium open house poll results.

These two things are unrelated. The validity of one is not dependent on the other.

But it does illustrate number pulling. Just look at the 98% done statements PB has all over the place. Perhaps a look at the January murmur where 12 or so books are estimated and only 4 come out. Just sayin is all.

The Galactus Kid wrote:

bielmic wrote:The numbers he is presenting are no more or less accurate than the Palladium open house poll results.

These two things are unrelated. The validity of one is not dependent on the other.

I never said they dependent on one another for validity seeing as how neither one has any. I just find it hypocritical to defend one secret self selected poll with no reproducibility incorrectly extrapolated to fit a preconceived notion and yet be critical of another one.

jaymz wrote:The last KS update Wayne promised to try and do better. I hate to say it but it has to be said. Do or do not. There is no try. Wayne has effectively failed at improving communications after promising to improve communications.

Canadians quoting Yoda.... it just got real up in here!

bielmic wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:

bielmic wrote:The numbers he is presenting are no more or less accurate than the Palladium open house poll results.

These two things are unrelated. The validity of one is not dependent on the other.

I never said they dependent on one another for validity seeing as how neither one has any. I just find it hypocritical to defend one secret self selected poll with no reproducibility incorrectly extrapolated to fit a preconceived notion and yet be critical of another one.

I understand bielmic. I'm not dfending the poll taken at the open house. Instead I'm saying that the statistics quoted by this poster are false and shouldn't be presented as truth.

at some point neither should the open house poll be presented at truth as a representative of what Palladium customers or fans want. Also the 98% complete number which has been proven to also be untrue.

seams that making up numbers and statics about fantasy games is par for the course on both sides.

The Galactus Kid wrote:

bielmic wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:

bielmic wrote:The numbers he is presenting are no more or less accurate than the Palladium open house poll results.

These two things are unrelated. The validity of one is not dependent on the other.

I never said they dependent on one another for validity seeing as how neither one has any. I just find it hypocritical to defend one secret self selected poll with no reproducibility incorrectly extrapolated to fit a preconceived notion and yet be critical of another one.

I understand bielmic. I'm not dfending the poll taken at the open house. Instead I'm saying that the statistics quoted by this poster are false and shouldn't be presented as truth.

On that we agree. The problem is that Palladium sets the example to follow and have presented wishful thinking as truth. They decreed that those unhappy are a vocal minority and just assumed the rest of the largely silent masses are content which also shouldn't be presented as truth. The truth is that none of us (including Kevin, Wayne, Alex, et al at Palladium) know what those who choose not to speak up think. The only thing we can comment on is the general sentiment of those who choose to comment. At a minimum, a significant portion of those choosing to comment are unhappy. I haven't actually bothered to count up the individual respondents but it feels like a simple majority at first glance even when you account for the mega posters who express their thoughts repeatedly. I can only comment with certaintly that of the four people I know in real life that pledged for the kickstarter, three of us are very unhappy. I haven't talked to the fourth for a long while but he was mildly unhappy months ago as well and sarcastically quipped back in november that we'd be lucky to see the stuff by gencon. I'd be surprised to find out that the official delays in the meantime have improved his outlook.

The truth is also that people who choose not to comment but are unhappy will also simply choose not to spend more money on Palladium's products rather than expressing their anger/frustration/disappointment directly. We've already seen this effect on the RPG side as the complaints about not finding people to play games with locally (even at conventions) or retailers willing to risk stocking or even ordering the product pop up frequently. I feel that palladium is long overdue in addressing the issues in an open and realistic fashion that they and their subcontractors (Ninja Division are very likely part of the problem in addition to PB) have created. They've unfortuantely chosen instead to continue the trend of instead marginalizing and ignoring the people whose concerns don't match their own viewpoint.

Jorel wrote:seams that making up numbers and statics about fantasy games is par for the course on both sides.

One has been done by a backer, in a position of minimal power.

The other is the creator of the product.

"Both sides" may have people who are making up numbers or massaging statistics to suit their needs, but there is a vast disparity in the severity of doing so.

Forar wrote:

Jorel wrote:seams that making up numbers and statics about fantasy games is par for the course on both sides.

One has been done by a backer, in a position of minimal power.

The other is the creator of the product.

"Both sides" may have people who are making up numbers or massaging statistics to suit their needs, but there is a vast disparity in the severity of doing so.

I agree with 98% of this statement.

I don't disagree with the level of Damage done, just that I don't take Kevin's #s seriously when he claims stuff like the Open House poll and I shouldn't have taken the 98% complete seriously either. Damn me I believed that one and it is my fault on some level as he hasn't been honest with us as far back as I can see. At least in terms of how long any of their projects will take them. Rick is invalidating people honest issues by making up numbers and trying to be inflammatory.

Those with serious issues deserve to be heard, and Kevin will always have a voice. If people let the constant barrage of drama that is coming from backers like the one in question continue, those backers with actual real issues that can be solved will never be heard or taken seriously.

Jorel you keep missing the point of what my poll is, my polls are based on the number of backers who have said anything on the backer forums so lets say there are 100 people who said something on the forums, 64 of them were unhappy, 17 of them were unhappy but still hopefull, and 19 of them were happy, I cannot contact those who do not post or say anything so I have to assume that these 100 who post are an average of the whole, ask any pollers and they will tell you that is how polls are done, my numbers are accurate or were when I did the counting, but it has gone up since then and not for Palladium.

you are just extrapolating of terribly incomplete data so stop

you can speak for the people who answered the poll because their answers are recorded. Anything else is you making up an agenda to fit your needs.

Jorel wrote:you can speak for the people who answered the poll because their answers are recorded. Anything else is you making up an agenda to fit your needs.

And I can only base my percentages on those who chose to say anything, its like voting, only those who voted have their votes count.

Not that I agree with applying such extrapolations forward as an absolute, a bit of cursory google'ing indicates that a survey sample size of 100 should have a roughly 10% margin of error.

However, using the KS comments, or a FB page, or any number of other options that were likely applied wouldn't result in an unbiased sampling. One can't simply go find the last 100 commentors, check them as a +, - or Neutral and consider that a job well done. Self selection, making sure a diverse representation is found and other biases and inaccuracies will crop up.

I'm not a statistician, but whenever I've gone data mining through comments, likes and whatnot, I've striven to reflect that this info is more of a "Huh, isn't that interesting" curiosity, rather than anything scientifically driven.

We're a loooong way from that, unless a great deal more scientific rigor was being applied.

Forar wrote:Not that I agree with applying such extrapolations forward as an absolute, a bit of cursory google'ing indicates that a survey sample size of 100 should have a roughly 10% margin of error.

However, using the KS comments, or a FB page, or any number of other options that were likely applied wouldn't result in an unbiased sampling. One can't simply go find the last 100 commentors, check them as a +, - or Neutral and consider that a job well done. Self selection, making sure a diverse representation is found and other biases and inaccuracies will crop up.

I'm not a statistician, but whenever I've gone data mining through comments, likes and whatnot, I've striven to reflect that this info is more of a "Huh, isn't that interesting" curiosity, rather than anything scientifically driven.

We're a loooong way from that, unless a great deal more scientific rigor was being applied.

Well didn't go over last hundred, but went from how many posters posted since kickstarter ended, both sides did have upticks here and there, but the longer the wait the higher the margin for the unhappy went.

Sadly Palladium kept promising us quality product and what they have shown is anything but quality product.

I've gathered information from everyone that I know locally that contrinuted to the project and they are all happy with this. Therefore I can accurately say that this project has a 100% satisfaction rate.




See? Doesn't that sound stupid?

The Galactus Kid wrote:I've gathered information from everyone that I know locally that contrinuted to the project and they are all happy with this. Therefore I can accurately say that this project has a 100% satisfaction rate.




See? Doesn't that sound stupid?

Yes it does, but you still can't discount the fact that with every update new names keep popping up that are unhappy about either the delays or the quality or both. Before you had PB fans posting there on the RRT page all the time (one in particular midnight blue). Now it's mostly just negativity post about PB and the way it's run. Not to mention how PB is being discussed in the miniatures industry. While ND is trying there best to distance themselves from this project.

Ninjabunny wrote:I can say that 100% of us that didn't back RRT are mad that we haven't gotten our books! (I'll bet dollars to doughnuts my numbers are closer.)

I was gonna say irritated, but not mad...but you excluded me in my RRT backer status.

However, one can place qualifiers upon such statements to retain some measure of accuracy.

I can note that all 3 of the backers in my group are unhappy with both communications and the state of the project, however I wouldn't dream of projecting that information across thousands of backers.

Though, given the small (in a global sense) number in any given area, I can extrapolate that to significant discontent in the Greater Toronto Area.

Though I will also recognize there are at least 2 other backers out here whom would probably cheer and roll around in a pile of melted garbage if it were mailed to them, so it's definitely not 100% either.

Nor is "how happy are GTA customers" a terribly pertinent metric across such a small sample size.

Just sayin'. Statistics are funny things.

The disquiet is growing over there and they are correct that it is new names added regularly to the mix along with the same old crowd.

As an aside, while I'm sure Jeff and Wayne have to slide things across Kevin's desk for final 98% approval, I thought Kevin was the one writing NG-1 and 2.... so how would RRT be heavily impacting his work? Sure, presumably some things needed attending to, but he's a writer, and presumably a miniatures game doesn't exactly need a ton of writing. Nor is the rules book particularly huge.

Just saying; while it might be the case that the two projects conflicted, unless Wayne or Jeff were pivotal in NG-1/2 as well, is it really a matter of the two conflicting?

Not saying there weren't other issues at hand either, and admit I didn't follow either campaign, so I say this out of legit curiosity, having mostly just read a few threads here and there, and perused the comments made in the weekly newsletters on the matter.

Jorel wrote:The disquiet is growing over there and they are correct that it is new names added regularly to the mix along with the same old crowd.

From another forum:

"Before the PM closed on this I picked up an extra Roy Fokker for my brother. I talked to him this morning and he asked if I had it yet. It took a few minutes to explain to him why I was laughing."