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Go tell that to the backers.

There are folks in there proclaiming that they'll be able to de-sprue and assemble a pod in 5 minutes flat.

And extrapolate across a Battle Cry. 10 minutes per figure for 100-200 figures? 16-33 hours of work just to build what the average backer picked up. 15 minutes? More like 24-50 hours. And that's without even glancing at priming, painting and basing for those so inclined. Merely a baseline to get ones kit assembled.

Yes, after one has completed a half dozen battlepods, the remaining 18-42+ of them will likely go more swiftly, but the more putty/green stuff is necessary, the more trimming, filing and tweaking to get pieces fitting just perfectly, the more time might be lost even with that experience gained.

If this were a skirmish game where I only needed 5-10 models for a crew (such as Malifaux), it's not that big a deal to have to take ones time. When a "standard" 300 point game requires between 16 and 50 figures, and building a significant army to have a variety of options based on the terrain, objectives and whatnot, that's going to be a much longer start up time, and such things can prove to be barriers to entry for many potential customers.

Anyone who thought this would be an X-Wing style "pop open the box and be playing in 30 minutes" product was not paying attention, but it's not unreasonable to look at a 34 model core box and say "it's going to take me how many hours to build this??" (at 15 minutes per model? Maybe 8-9 hours, a very significant time frame, especially for fans of a show so old, and thus more likely to have careers, husbands/wives, children, and other aspects of life that keep those spare hours precious and rare in between).

Forar wrote:Go tell that to the backers.

I thought I just had... but I'd quite cheerfully tell them it ain't ever THAT easy.

Forar wrote:There are folks in there proclaiming that they'll be able to de-sprue and assemble a pod in 5 minutes flat.

Well, you can get insane proclamations pretty much anywhere on the internet... but I could maybe see it, if the person doing the assembly didn't give a hoot about making it look good or painting it. I think a part of that unrealistic expectation is, as you and others have remarked, these are people who are new to the hobby and haven't really had their expectations calibrated by experience. Reality will not be kind to those people.

Forar wrote:And extrapolate across a Battle Cry. 10 minutes per figure for 100-200 figures? 16-33 hours of work just to build what the average backer picked up. 15 minutes? More like 24-50 hours.

Well, more like 33 hours 20 minutes... but what's a quarter hour between friends? I'm not honestly seeing anything out of the ordinary here. To put it in terms more familiar to me, tabletop-wise, your Joe Average backer who got the Battlecry set will end up trying to assemble the rough equivalent of 4-8 of the Games Workshop WH40K boxed battleforces and expects to be done in ten minutes a model? You're looking at a good three or four hours minimum just to remove everything from the sprues, never mind cleaning up that many miniatures worth of flash and sorting it all into individual figures.

Basic prepwork before starting assembly on a project that big is likely to run upwards of eight hours even before you start putting stuff together... and I'm not counting using green stuff or sandpaper to address molding issues. Realistically? Expect a BARE MINIMUM of 20 minutes per miniature if you're using a quick setting modeling glue on a miniature with relatively few pieces and want it to look good. It's more like at least 30 if you assemble in phases while you wait for the glue to finish setting.

Priming, painting, inking, basing, and/or flocking? Good grief, I don't even know where to begin. It's good that these miniatures don't have exposed flesh anywhere, because painting that adds a solid half hour or more per miniature. Even so, if we assume a sprayed-on basecoat of something like Chaos Black, and an average of five to six colors per miniature for various detail work, you're probably looking at a grand total investment of around 2 hours per miniature... unless you get into the real hardcore stuff like customizing, distressing, or want to experiment with inks and shading. Then you could be looking at four or five hours per mini.

To a decent Warhammer 40,000 player with a ~1,500 point tournament army, it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for them to spend several hundred hours on assembly and painting. Playing Apocalypse rules? Several THOUSAND.

Forar wrote:When a "standard" 300 point game requires between 16 and 50 figures, and building a significant army to have a variety of options based on the terrain, objectives and whatnot, that's going to be a much longer start up time, and such things can prove to be barriers to entry for many potential customers.

But that's not anything like unreasonable in the industry... it's just a case of the backers not having a realistic set of expectations, but I'm preaching to the choir at this point.

Forar wrote:Maybe 8-9 hours, a very significant time frame, especially for fans of a show so old, and thus more likely to have careers, husbands/wives, children, and other aspects of life that keep those spare hours precious and rare in between).

Welcome to the tabletop hobby, friend... I've been fortunate enough to have had two girlfriends who were every bit as into the hobby as I am, so building and painting stuff became a couples activity. (I promise, no LCB jokes...) I realize how difficult it is to find the time to do that, but I don't have a heck of a lot of sympathy for backers who didn't realize what they were getting into... as you're already well aware.

I'm better acquainted than most with the amount of time it takes to build an army on that scale... I've done no less than FIVE 2,500pt+ Warhammer 40,000 tournament armies. (Dark Eldar twice, Necrons, Craftworld Iyanden Eldar, and Black Templars Space marines.)

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Forar wrote:Maybe 8-9 hours, a very significant time frame, especially for fans of a show so old, and thus more likely to have careers, husbands/wives, children, and other aspects of life that keep those spare hours precious and rare in between).

Welcome to the tabletop hobby, friend... I've been fortunate enough to have had two girlfriends who were every bit as into the hobby as I am, so building and painting stuff became a couples activity. (I promise, no LCB jokes...) I realize how difficult it is to find the time to do that, but I don't have a heck of a lot of sympathy for backers who didn't realize what they were getting into... as you're already well aware.

I'm better acquainted than most with the amount of time it takes to build an army on that scale... I've done no less than FIVE 2,500pt+ Warhammer 40,000 tournament armies. (Dark Eldar twice, Necrons, Craftworld Iyanden Eldar, and Black Templars Space marines.)

Yep. Real tabletop War gamming is a major time investment. That is not unusual in any way.

Larry A wrote:There's an old joke about the kind of "reason" and "proof" that seems to be your desired "requirement". Two kids walk down the sidewalk and notice something, the following conversation follows:

I love good irony when I see it... and your post is rife with it. Your cheerful little persecution complex as a backer of RRT has been definitively proven to have no foundation in reality. None whatsoever. Palladium's leading this? WRONG. Palladium's giving Ninja Division direction? WRONG. Palladium's trying to screw you guys? WRONG. A least you have a consistent process... though I don't think they offer ISO 9000 for this habit you've got of swinging for the fences over imagined slights.

Ninja Division has quite cheerfully confirmed that the problems are the result of a WIP, and Palladium has gone on record that they're not Ninja Division's keeper. End of story.

To put a fun little spin on your scatological little story, what you've been doing is akin to accusing a candy maker of selling dog poo because you noticed the unfinished truffle they were working on is brown.

Larry A wrote:How do you know I was wrong [...]

It's hard to argue with Palladium's admission that they didn't have a clue what Ninja Division was doing (so they CAN'T be micromanaging this or giving Ninja Division orders), a very visible acknowledgement from the Ninja Division team that they're working to address the issues with the miniatures (so they're clearly not in any mood to screw or intent on releasing subpar material). Yes, the timetable is still an unholy mess, but that's par for the course and we can't have everything, can we?

Where is the villainy you're so intent on proclaiming exists? There is no evidence that it exists at all. All we have here is inexperienced companies fumbling their way through a large-scale collaboration that turned out to be a bigger task than they'd bargained for.

It's time to call an end to your windmill crusade, Mr. Quixote, there are no giants here.

Maybe you could move on to Gundam's Future Century... at least there, the windmills ARE the giants.

Larry A wrote:Palladium admitting they were clueless about the status of their project that ND had contracted for points to a failure of responsibility by Palladium.

Unless, of course, we were to reach the obvious conclusion that Palladium is not Ninja Division's keeper, and that this is a collaborative partnership as we've been told instead of the employer-employee one in these conspiracy theories.

Larry A wrote:As I've said repeatedly, simple basic business competence and something to be expected from a business with thirty years of existence.

Having had more than my fair share of encounters as a contractor with everything from home businesses right on up the scale to Fortune 50 companies, that "simple basic business competence" is something I've often found to be distressingly thin on the ground. Palladium's thirty-odd years of experience isn't in the field of tabletop gaming, so I'd cut them some slack there. This is work on a scale they're not used to or have much experience with.

Larry A wrote:All of Ninja Division's responses I've read, especially in the recent flurry after Palladium attempted to throw them under the bus by blaming everything on ND, all point to the guys at Ninja Division trying desperately to fix stuff that the boss screwed up with no budget for it and hampered by penny-wise and pound-foolish decisions by the senior entity in the relationship.

The ones I've read have given me the distinct impression that Ninja Division is making a grand effort in the field of covering their own arses after thinking things were cool and suddenly finding out they weren't. On the front of them trying desperately to make it right, I definitely got that impression as well, though what I'd gleaned from it was more to the tone of "You want MORE money to fix something you ought to have done right the first time? We thought you were professionals."

Larry A wrote:Which implies that the party with less experience (but obviously from the evidence given) has the whip hand over expenditures and contracting for something that the party with more experience should have been handling.

Well, you guys keep reminding everyone that Palladium is the one whose name is on the Kickstarter... so they're the ones who collected the money and are doling it out, as it only proper considering the nature of the KS beast.



Blind trust and inexperience drove RRT to this.

In the end, it just sounds like there is blame for all parties involved. But I also almost positive that neither party did it on purpose.

"Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice."

With the recent announcement pushing back production's start from "mid May, maybe earlier" to "late June", an update is likely to follow soon noting that backer boxes will not, in fact, be going out in July, as we'll be lucky if they're even off the boat by then. With Gencon eating up far more of August than just its mere weekend (lead up and recuperation time after), it wouldn't surprise me if the majority of Backer boxes were shipped in September, which means Sept/Oct delivery.

And if I'm remotely close to the looming timeframe update, I imagine there'll be more voices popping up.

Though to be unnecessarily charitable, while the backer target was quietly shifted in a comment from June to July, the front page news release has said "Summer 2014" for a while, which ends on Sept 23rd, as I recall.

Wait, no, the weekly updates say Summer:

"Robotech® RPG Tactics™ – Coming Summer 2014"

"Release Date: An exact date is yet to be determined; Summer 2014."

The news release still says May/June.

"Kickstarter WAVE ONE Items
– Ship May/June, 2014 to Kickstarter Supporters"

"Release Dates: Ships in early June to Kickstarter supporters. Ships a few weeks later to distributors. Should be in your hands no later than June and in stores by the beginning of July, 2014."

Guess someone still needs to go push the news release back.

Forar wrote:"Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice."

Only if you believed the Clod(s) in Charge [was/were] competent to begin with... and competence can be rather subjective and variable depending upon the skill levels and experience of those involved.

You may look at the incompetence on display and see malice... but all I see are a bunch of overeager fan boys at Palladium hoping to revive their dwindling fortunes, and a passel of model-makers at Ninja Division who are probably suffering some pretty severe buyer's remorse after learning Robotech's standing in the industry was massively exaggerated during the pitch and the promises of a big-budget Hollywood film were completely empty.

Forar wrote:With the recent announcement pushing back production's start from "mid May, maybe earlier" to "late June", an update is likely to follow soon noting that backer boxes will not, in fact, be going out in July, as we'll be lucky if they're even off the boat by then.

Me, I'm waiting for them to finally jump off the slippery slope and say 2015... and then for Harmony Gold to try and spin it like having it come out for the 30th anniversary was the plan all along, rather than the quite predictable end result of Dilbert-esque project management.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Forar wrote:"Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice."

Only if you believed the Clod(s) in Charge [was/were] competent to begin with... and competence can be rather subjective and variable depending upon the skill levels and experience of those involved.

You may look at the incompetence on display and see malice... but all I see are a bunch of overeager fan boys at Palladium hoping to revive their dwindling fortunes, and a passel of model-makers at Ninja Division who are probably suffering some pretty severe buyer's remorse after learning Robotech's standing in the industry was massively exaggerated during the pitch and the promises of a big-budget Hollywood film were completely empty.

... you are reading way too much into a fairly famous quote alteration that was added for laughs and nothing more.

The original is "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - Arthur C. Clarke

just throwing my two cents here on what I understand from this whole thing (good God am I going to get chewed out).

First off I'm use to Palladium being over eager when it comes to release dates for their products given that I started following them some two years back. Given the consideration that they just dived head first into a new part of the tabletop gaming community that they probably should have done a little more research from other people that have been in it for a while or more, I can understand that they were excited to try something new. The only thing I blame them for is again their over eagerness for a new project that is different. The only thing I see them doing on this project is the rule book and art assets with a little impute.

As for Ninja Division they are a relatively new miniatures company that already has 2 or 3 projects that I know of already going on at the same time as this. Maybe they should have done research from other company's since this is their first time with a new plastic type.

All and all, yeah they screwed up on this but what did anyone suspect was going to happen on a first venture. Hopefully they learned a lot from this and try not to do the same mistakes if and when they try to do other things in the miniatures market.

Forar wrote:... you are reading way too much into a fairly famous quote alteration that was added for laughs and nothing more.

I know darn well what it's from... but logically it doesn't stand up, that's why I objected to it.

Besides, there are entirely too many backers complaining and asserting that malice WAS somehow a motivation. I don't need to name names, they stand out well enough as it is.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Forar wrote:... you are reading way too much into a fairly famous quote alteration that was added for laughs and nothing more.

I know darn well what it's from... but logically it doesn't stand up, that's why I objected to it.

Besides, there are entirely too many backers complaining and asserting that malice WAS somehow a motivation. I don't need to name names, they stand out well enough as it is.

I'm just happy its being made, and it looks like it will look nice. Or am I just a really pacent?

Alpha 11 wrote:I'm just happy its being made, and it looks like it will look nice. Or am I just a really pacent?

I think you have the patience of a saint, good sir.

Me, I just don't give a damn.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Alpha 11 wrote:I'm just happy its being made, and it looks like it will look nice. Or am I just a really pacent?

I think you have the patience of a saint, good sir.

Me, I just don't give a damn.

I guess Palladium will do that to a person, or drive them insane!

Larry A wrote:Amusing, you try to refute my post, but then validate it in the refutation and responses to other posters. ROFLMAO

I'm afraid you may need to go back and actually read my posts... because you've rather missed the entire point of what was written.

What you assert is that Palladium is the lord and master of this project, calling all the shots and to whom everyone is subordinate... and that they have no excuse for any of the problems that've cropped up here because they have thirty years of experience in gaming. The reality of the situation, as I've pointed out, is that Palladium is NOT the one in charge, Ninja Division is their partner rather than a subordinate to boss around, and that their thirty years of experience in gaming are in a completely different genre which has virtually zero practical overlap with tabletop miniatures gaming.

My most recent posts have not deviated from that... I've just pointed out that poor, rookie Palladium had to go to Ninja Division and ask "What the hell bro?" when everyone started blaming THEM for quality issues with the miniatures they didn't design. Ninja Division, who apparently thought this stuff was A-OK, is in a mad scramble to make it right before all your bad press finishes the job of killing the game's prospects forever.

You'd also have noted, if you were paying attention, that I never said Palladium was holding the purse strings... just that they were likely surprised that Ninja Division needed to invest more time and resources into getting it right when both parties clearly thought they'd done it right the first time.

Larry in fairness PB also seems inexperienced at publishing RPG books.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Larry A wrote:Amusing, you try to refute my post, but then validate it in the refutation and responses to other posters. ROFLMAO

I'm afraid you may need to go back and actually read my posts... because you've rather missed the entire point of what was written.

What you assert is that Palladium is the lord and master of this project, calling all the shots and to whom everyone is subordinate... and that they have no excuse for any of the problems that've cropped up here because they have thirty years of experience in gaming. The reality of the situation, as I've pointed out, is that Palladium is NOT the one in charge, Ninja Division is their partner rather than a subordinate to boss around, and that their thirty years of experience in gaming are in a completely different genre which has virtually zero practical overlap with tabletop miniatures gaming.

My most recent posts have not deviated from that... I've just pointed out that poor, rookie Palladium had to go to Ninja Division and ask "What the hell bro?" when everyone started blaming THEM for quality issues with the miniatures they didn't design. Ninja Division, who apparently thought this stuff was A-OK, is in a mad scramble to make it right before all your bad press finishes the job of killing the game's prospects forever.

You'd also have noted, if you were paying attention, that I never said Palladium was holding the purse strings... just that they were likely surprised that Ninja Division needed to invest more time and resources into getting it right when both parties clearly thought they'd done it right the first time.

Don't forget Harmony Gold in all of this. The company that is doing no design or manufacture work but has the power to of life or death over any art work or mini that is produced for the piddling little reason that it is their IP.

If you are looking for a reason why all the blame is going to PB instead of HG I think it has something to do the fact that most of the posts we have seen here would not last 5 minutes on an HG website before they were deleted and banned.

BTW, just a quick note - 41 days since PB started "Getting rid of the vocal minority" and you are all still here, spouting your nonsense. Any chance we can move this to a more accurate forum like "Mindless Vilifying and Grousing"? Just for the sake of accuracy.

Warshield73 wrote:BTW, just a quick note - 41 days since PB started "Getting rid of the vocal minority" and you are all still here, spouting your nonsense. Any chance we can move this to a more accurate forum like "Mindless Vilifying and Grousing"? Just for the sake of accuracy.

Except it wasn't when PB started getting rid of the vocal minority. It was when Larry Algee gave PB a suggestion on how to get rid of the vocal minority (issuing refunds to those unhappy). As that hasn't happened yet (and I'd still put my hand up, even if the current Update is decent), your statement misses the point, and the thread should stay here. Just for the sake of accuracy.

Warshield73 wrote:Don't forget Harmony Gold in all of this. The company that is doing no design or manufacture work but has the power to of life or death over any art work or mini that is produced for the piddling little reason that it is their IP.

True facts, my friend. I haven't forgotten... it's just that they've been keeping their noses out of this as far as anyone's press releases have been concerned. (Mind you, I suspect that if the deadline slips much farther, they'll call it a 2015 release and claim the plan was ALWAYS to put it out as a celebration of the franchise's 30th Anniverary... of achieving absolutely nothing worth mentioning.)

Warshield73 wrote:If you are looking for a reason why all the blame is going to PB instead of HG I think it has something to do the fact that most of the posts we have seen here would not last 5 minutes on an HG website before they were deleted and banned.

Eh... to be honest, I think the reason the blame is going to Palladium instead of Harmony Gold is that the staff at Harmony Gold are involved only in a supervisory role for approvals, and otherwise haven't lifted a finger to steer the development, production, and delivery of the game. People are already used to Kevin and company's tendency to over-promise and under-deliver, so the Murmurs and other news posts serve only to further irritate the backers already furious over the delays and quality issues because Palladium's being so blase about the schedule-slippage and other problems. Palladium did, after all, give everyone a very distinct impression that the game was practically finished... and then they got a year of updates on all the unfinished parts prototyping that is still going on. So, since it's Palladium's foot in Palladium's own mouth, the backers are venting their frustration with every aspect of it, deserved or not, at the group of developers who keep dispensing the irritation-inducing news.

Shooting the messenger, you might say... though to a certain extent, one might argue that the messenger had it coming.

I actually won $10.00 over this fiasco. A freind of mine introduced me to Ninja Divisions kickstarter, and I was about to jump on board until I saw the Palladium Books link. I bet my mate $10 it would be horrendiously late. Spent the money over at FFG

Rimmer wrote:I actually won $10.00 over this fiasco. A freind of mine introduced me to Ninja Divisions kickstarter, and I was about to jump on board until I saw the Palladium Books link. I bet my mate $10 it would be horrendiously late. Spent the money over at FFG

Lucky duck... I wish I'd thought to bet with someone on this being a fiasco.

I didn't even have that brief moment of hope before I was getting newtype flashes of impending doom... I came to the conclusion it was doomed before they'd gotten far enough to tell me it was crowdfunded and was being done on Kickstarter. I heard the word "Robotech" and immediately predicted a crash-and-burn.

TheOttoman wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:I'll put $5 on the slithering.

I'll get in on that action.

I'd forgotten about that post... but unless the vagaries of international shipping play out in Palladium's favor that might end in a default if Palladium doesn't have things in the hands of the backers before GenCon.

Larry A wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:BTW, just a quick note - 41 days since PB started "Getting rid of the vocal minority" and you are all still here, spouting your nonsense. Any chance we can move this to a more accurate forum like "Mindless Vilifying and Grousing"? Just for the sake of accuracy.

BTW, it has now been 128 days and PB still has not lifted a finger to get rid of the vocal minority. So, you can pick your forum, but perhaps, "Stupidity in Business Practices by letting Negative Buzz Makers keep their motivation for Making Negative Buzz" would do.

$1.4M US and Palladium couldn't shut me up by a minor payoff. Heh, the only reasons are that the money has already been blown on other expenditures, Palladium at this point expects the game to fail (and therefore cannot get extra profit by simply selling my stuff to a distributor) at retail, and/or Palladium knows that there would be a "run" on a refund offer that would wipe out a quite significant portion of the preorders from this KS. Especially since the ones known to be part of the Palladium defined "vocal minority" are well above the curve on dollars spent into this KS.

No, they don't think it will fail. Were do you get your info. And BTW, I've heard nothing but good things from the game since Gen Con. So I don't see any problems coming form there. Unless you have facts to back it up. Then please give us those facts. And do you have any facts on the money being blown also? Please stick to facts. Or say, you think the money might be all gone, because, and give your reasons why you think so. Don't say things like that, again, when you have nothing to back that. Though, I am willing to concede that there is a possibility that that might have happen because of all that went wrong. But, like I said before, don't say things like they are fact without bringing said facts.

Larry A - I have to ask....why are you still even here? If it is just stir the pot that ship has sailed. Move on man....

Where is the "Dead Horse" smiley when you really need it. Trying to get a refund from a kickstarter is ridiculous. As has already been covered many times if every KS that even went double the production time gave refunds the site would not exist. The only projects I have seen really go off on time are the ones where people are just using KS as a cheap online store and already have all the work done. Every real kickstarter I have done has run extremely late.

Granted, 9 months late for wave 1 is pushing reasonable and wave 2 being a year late is well past reasonable but it's what we get for buying a product that is not even made yet.

Larry A wrote:Why am I still here? Look at my original post in this thread. Because I haven't gotten a refund yet.

Alpha11 - I gave three fairly obvious suggestions that fit the fact on hand. Simple, if Palladium really thought RRT was going to be a commercial success then given the price hikes on the product since the end of the KS, even before the game was done with preproduction development (or maybe it was before it even started preproduction), having some more product that they don't have to give away at discounted prices would up Palladium's profit margin. Kevin S himself said months ago that virtually all the money was gone from the KS and since I am competent enough to call some people I've chatted with before who make reasonable quality miniatures for gaming, there is no excuse for that barring some really poor business choices. The last item comes from personal conversations and observations with real world backers who spent more money.

Seriously, if even 10% of the benefit of the doubt you want to give Palladium because people cannot discern or logically derive a potential smoking gun was true, there wouldn't be an issue at all with RRT. The obvious solution, if there is nothing fishy, would be for Palladium to open the books on the KS and/or start giving refunds on peoples' preorders a while back.

Thanks for the facts. I honestly don't remember Kevin saying that, but I will take your word for now that he said it. Unless someone can say he didn't, with something to back that up. So I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt for now. And yes, that is dishearting news. Though that doesn't mean that it will fail. It could still work. Though I honestly believe they are trying.

Alpha 11 wrote:

Larry A wrote:Why am I still here? Look at my original post in this thread. Because I haven't gotten a refund yet.

Alpha11 - I gave three fairly obvious suggestions that fit the fact on hand. Simple, if Palladium really thought RRT was going to be a commercial success then given the price hikes on the product since the end of the KS, even before the game was done with preproduction development (or maybe it was before it even started preproduction), having some more product that they don't have to give away at discounted prices would up Palladium's profit margin. Kevin S himself said months ago that virtually all the money was gone from the KS and since I am competent enough to call some people I've chatted with before who make reasonable quality miniatures for gaming, there is no excuse for that barring some really poor business choices. The last item comes from personal conversations and observations with real world backers who spent more money.

Seriously, if even 10% of the benefit of the doubt you want to give Palladium because people cannot discern or logically derive a potential smoking gun was true, there wouldn't be an issue at all with RRT. The obvious solution, if there is nothing fishy, would be for Palladium to open the books on the KS and/or start giving refunds on peoples' preorders a while back.

Thanks for the facts. I honestly don't remember Kevin saying that, but I will take your word for now that he said it. Unless someone can say he didn't, with something to back that up. So I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt for now. And yes, that is dishearting news. Though that doesn't mean that it will fail. It could still work. Though I honestly believe they are trying.

Please note that he did not and, to the best of my recollection, can not source this. I have seen no such comment in any press release or interview so Larry please source this with a link so we may see for ourselves. As a backer if this is true I am going to be very upset.

It is TOO early to declare RTT a success or a failure.

I can see it doing great for Xmas, but my interest is seeing how much play it gets next GenCon because that will tell us about post-KS momentum among new players.

Warshield73 wrote:Please note that he did not and, to the best of my recollection, can not source this. I have seen no such comment in any press release or interview so Larry please source this with a link so we may see for ourselves. As a backer if this is true I am going to be very upset.

Well... to be entirely fair, NMI has repeatedly said that they didn't have the funds (approx. $1,000) to get space for demo play of RRT in the miniatures room at GenCon.

They started this with about 1.3 million (after Kickstarter's cut), and they don't even have a grand to spare for demoing the game to its target demographic? It doesn't prove Larry's right, but it IS cause for a raised eyebrow.

Yeah, and that was PER table and you'd never due with less than 3-4....

Mike1975 wrote:Yeah, and that was PER table and you'd never due with less than 3-4....

Still, you'd think that with a post-fees budget to the tune of $1.30 million they'd be able to afford to drop a few thousand dollars on demo space for advertising purposes. Four tables would be about 0.3% of the total budget. Considering the budgetary scope of the project, a few grand for the most essential postproduction phase shouldn't have been a bridge too far.

It could be that PB could only spend the money raised for the ks on the project itself...

Not sure I understand you. How is marketing and advertising not part of the project?

The money from the kickstarter is being used only to produce the product in the kickstarter.
Getting tables at Gen Con had to come from other funds. And at the price per table, it
was simply to high. But for those who haven't paid attention. GenCon has already said
that if we have as good of a showing next year as we did this year. We will get tables for free
in one of the main gaming halls.

As for people who spent a lot on the KS being part of the "vocal minority" that is crap.
I guarantee you I spent more than most, and you wont see me doing anything but
supporting the efforts to make this game a success.
Which by the way is the primary purpose of "backing" a project on kickstarter.
Because you want to help make it a success. Not because your greedy
and looking for hand outs....

And at that I will stop.
And likewise I apologize if I have overstepped my bounds.

Spinachcat wrote:It is TOO early to declare RTT a success or a failure.

I can see it doing great for Xmas, but my interest is seeing how much play it gets next GenCon because that will tell us about post-KS momentum among new players.

Oh, I'm totally with you there.

JimmyB wrote:The money from the kickstarter is being used only to produce the product in the kickstarter.
Getting tables at Gen Con had to come from other funds. And at the price per table, it
was simply to high. But for those who haven't paid attention. GenCon has already said
that if we have as good of a showing next year as we did this year. We will get tables for free
in one of the main gaming halls.

As for people who spent a lot on the KS being part of the "vocal minority" that is crap.
I guarantee you I spent more than most, and you wont see me doing anything but
supporting the efforts to make this game a success.
Which by the way is the primary purpose of "backing" a project on kickstarter.
Because you want to help make it a success. Not because your greedy
and looking for hand outs....

And at that I will stop.
And likewise I apologize if I have overstepped my bounds.

And that is why I was thinking it still has a good chance of succeeding. I've heard nothing but praise from Gen Con. And that one backer that got that basic box set and did a review and good praise for it. The only exception being the cards. And JimmyB, thanks for more good news from Gen Con. Even the Gen Con people think this game has a chance. And also clarifying about the tables.

JimmyB wrote:The money from the kickstarter is being used only to produce the product in the kickstarter.
Getting tables at Gen Con had to come from other funds. And at the price per table, it
was simply to high. But for those who haven't paid attention. GenCon has already said
that if we have as good of a showing next year as we did this year. We will get tables for free
in one of the main gaming halls.

The actual statement from GenCon has a # designated, and it needs to be higher than this year specifically related to Tactics, but not unreachable! JimmyB is correct on the money, and the reason why it was not done- Palladium was not willing to pay the price considering they were not sure about delivery times (and a good decision, considering).
As someone that is familiar with some of the details, RRT was incredibly well received, and I hope that all of the backers feel the same once they receive their product.
FYI- I have not received anything yet myself, for those that think I have some inside track....

I have yet to see a single company in the US open its books to the public in any significant detail. So I think we can consider getting to see the companies expenditures a dead end.

From Tips for the EVIL Overlord's Accountant

1.Keep a set of books listing those activities of the Evil Overlord which would would be a credit to Gandhi. Show these records to anyone who cares to see them.

2.Keep a second set of books that lists the activities in the first set of books, plus those activites that look fishy at a cursory glance, but at closer examination are perfectly within the letter of the law, and maybe bend it a little. Show these books to auditors who aren't fooled by the first set of books, and then only when the Evil Overlord has no choice but to allow examination. Keep them a bit disheveled so that anyone looking at them will think you were caught with your pants down.

3.Keep a third set of books, listing everything the Evil Overlord is up to. Show these books to the Evil Overlord when he wants to see them. Show them to nobody else. Store them in thermite-packed cabinets so that they can be destroyed with extreme speed.

4.Keep a fourth set of books, listing the locations and passwords for the bulk of the Evil Overlord's loot, including the Plundered Crown Jewels. Use this information to bargain for your miserable cowardly life when the Hero defeats the Evil Overlord.

5.Keep a fifth set of books, listing the locations and passwords for a small portion of the Evil Overlord's loot, in the form of unmarked and untraceable cash. Use this information to set yourself up for retirement after the Evil Overlord is overthrown.

6.When the Hero and his allies storm the Evil Overlord's castle, hide under the Sturdy Oak Table with the other Sly Advisors until the fighting stops. If the Evil Overlord wins, it's back to business as usual; your sniveling cowardice will only stoke the Evil Overlord's feelings of superiority over you, so you will not be punished. If the Hero wins, thank the Hero for freeing you from the Evil Overlord's mind control, show him to where the Plundered Crown Jewels are kept, and then when nobody's looking, get the portion of the Evil Overlord's loot that you have earmarked for your retirement fund and retire.

7.Do not bother the Evil Overlord with the details of finances; math bores him. Simply remember his net worth at any given moment and be prepared to supply that figure on demand.

8.Do not embezzle from the Evil Overlord, unless you are able to cover the discrepancy by exaggerating the losses incurred by the bumbling of the Evil Overlord's other henchmen, and then only when said henchmen are dead.

Standard Operating Procedure for the IRS...