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ShadowLogan wrote:[...] but the question does have to be considered what they (ASC) expected to have to deal with in setting requirements.

's one of the more glaring issues with the use of Southern Cross... the mecha just don't make sense from any logical perspective. Within the context of the Robotech adaptation, they clearly were not expecting to fight rogue Zentradi. Their mecha are about half the size they'd need to be to be a credible threat to a Zentradi infantryman on foot, and too lightly armed to have any real staying power in a knock-down, drag-out fight. They didn't know the Invid were a factor, and their units were ill-equipped to fight them for the same reasons as the Zentradi... no staying power against superior numbers. The Robotech Masters also weren't a factor, because the Bioroids were news to the UEDF.

So what WERE they expecting to fight?

There are no rival nations on Earth in canon, and their gear is about as unsuitable to fighting against the Zentradi or the Invid, and were next to useless against the Masters.

It's looking like they just built substandard military hardware for the sheer pleasure of getting as many of their own people killed as possible if some enemy presented itself. Their fighters are a massive leap in the wrong direction, technologically and performance-wise.

ShadowLogan wrote:No there isn't. The UEDF-ASC and UEEF are capable of producing the VF-X-4, but choose not to do so.

To quote Yoda, of all the insane sources...

"... and that is why you fail"

How much better would they have done if they had a fighter that had surface-to-orbit capability and an armament superior to the VF-1's... an armament that, OSMly, was a credible threat to capital ships.

ShadowLogan wrote:That they did not indicates that requirements shifted in what mattered to them. The backslide is in requirements chosen for their next generation designs, not their technology base.

That doesn't account for things like the Sylphid and Falcon... fighters using the exact same technology as the VF-1 for their engines and power plant, which inexplicably have a tiny fraction of the endurance while having far more room for fuel.

It also doesn't explain how this shift in requirements managed to produce aircraft that are noticeably far worse at, and less appropriate for, their chosen jobs than the designs they replaced. They designed an orbital-to-surface attack plane that cannot return to orbit under its own power, and the craft that they built for planetary defense have embarrassingly short ranges that make them suitable only for a localized defense of small areas of the surface and incapable of interception in the upper atmosphere.*

ShadowLogan wrote:From a limited view point they can be seen as apples-apples, but they are not in fact apples at a wholistic level. Nor where the built with all the same requirements in mind.

We're talking about two aircraft that were built around most of the same technology, using the same type of engines and power systems, both intended to fight against an alien invasion. It's as apples-to-apples as it gets without it simply being a comparison between two examples of the same plane.

ShadowLogan wrote:Being non-transformable platforms, the conventional vehicles likely had different endurance requirements compared to the VF-1 (and other VTs). Just because they have the room to put in days worth of fuel, does not mean they have a need to.

You're the one who was arguing that these fighters are meant to defend the entire planet, rather than a small section of it around the few existing cities... are you recanting that position? There is no reason to not have the same sortie range as a VF-1 at the very least, if they're supposedly replacing the VF-1, in whole or in part, as a planetary defense forces fighter.

ShadowLogan wrote:I've reviewed screen captures of the animation. Width looks to be closer to 10ft, length looks about right. That's not a large walk-in closet, that's a small bedroom.

That's still a damnably small area and there are only four operator stations therein... and that's the whole bridge. There's no lower level, no specialized control areas... there's not even a captain's chair. The old men we see in the series are the ship's ENTIRE COMMAND CREW.

ShadowLogan wrote:The only garfish interior we see in the animation is the Old Timers. Nor are we given a grand tour. We only see the bridge, hold, and a rec-room (large enough for 7+5=12 people w/room to spare).

Considering the OSM-correct Garfish stats give it a theoretical maximum crew of only around 2 dozen...

ShadowLogan wrote:The Ship is also supposed to be modular, so the ship could be reconfigured for a given mission. An armed freighter isn't going to need the same crew as one acting as a mini-carrier or science/recon vessel. And it is reasonable that the Old Timers Garfish was in an armed freighter configuration given their supply of arms they had for sale that are said to be issued to them.

The only Garfish configurations we see are frontline warships... the one the "old timers" had was identical in every respect to the others that were used in the original animation, and differs in only a couple minor details from the ones in RTSC.

ShadowLogan wrote:In any case there is another reason to have naval ships deployed. Approximately 75% of the Earth's surface is covered in water. We know from the animation that Earth had Ground Radar to call up on should satellites go down. In order to have optimal coverage of the Earth for minimal blindspots, they would need to have some ships or bases out at sea.

And what do we see in the series if not ironclad proof that their coverage is far, FAR less than optimal? There are no ships. Everything we see, and everything their is evidence for, is ground-based defenses operating from garrisons and airstrips in close proximity to the few remaining cities.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:[...] but the question does have to be considered what they (ASC) expected to have to deal with in setting requirements.

's one of the more glaring issues with the use of Southern Cross... the mecha just don't make sense from any logical perspective. Within the context of the Robotech adaptation, they clearly were not expecting to fight rogue Zentradi. Their mecha are about half the size they'd need to be to be a credible threat to a Zentradi infantryman on foot, and too lightly armed to have any real staying power in a knock-down, drag-out fight. They didn't know the Invid were a factor, and their units were ill-equipped to fight them for the same reasons as the Zentradi... no staying power against superior numbers. The Robotech Masters also weren't a factor, because the Bioroids were news to the UEDF.

So what WERE they expecting to fight?

There are no rival nations on Earth in canon, and their gear is about as unsuitable to fighting against the Zentradi or the Invid, and were next to useless against the Masters.

It's looking like they just built substandard military hardware for the sheer pleasure of getting as many of their own people killed as possible if some enemy presented itself. Their fighters are a massive leap in the wrong direction, technologically and performance-wise.

ShadowLogan wrote:No there isn't. The UEDF-ASC and UEEF are capable of producing the VF-X-4, but choose not to do so.

To quote Yoda, of all the insane sources...

"... and that is why you fail"

How much better would they have done if they had a fighter that had surface-to-orbit capability and an armament superior to the VF-1's... an armament that, OSMly, was a credible threat to capital ships.

ShadowLogan wrote:That they did not indicates that requirements shifted in what mattered to them. The backslide is in requirements chosen for their next generation designs, not their technology base.

That doesn't account for things like the Sylphid and Falcon... fighters using the exact same technology as the VF-1 for their engines and power plant, which inexplicably have a tiny fraction of the endurance while having far more room for fuel.

It also doesn't explain how this shift in requirements managed to produce aircraft that are noticeably far worse at, and less appropriate for, their chosen jobs than the designs they replaced. They designed an orbital-to-surface attack plane that cannot return to orbit under its own power, and the craft that they built for planetary defense have embarrassingly short ranges that make them suitable only for a localized defense of small areas of the surface and incapable of interception in the upper atmosphere.*

ShadowLogan wrote:From a limited view point they can be seen as apples-apples, but they are not in fact apples at a wholistic level. Nor where the built with all the same requirements in mind.

We're talking about two aircraft that were built around most of the same technology, using the same type of engines and power systems, both intended to fight against an alien invasion. It's as apples-to-apples as it gets without it simply being a comparison between two examples of the same plane.

ShadowLogan wrote:Being non-transformable platforms, the conventional vehicles likely had different endurance requirements compared to the VF-1 (and other VTs). Just because they have the room to put in days worth of fuel, does not mean they have a need to.

You're the one who was arguing that these fighters are meant to defend the entire planet, rather than a small section of it around the few existing cities... are you recanting that position? There is no reason to not have the same sortie range as a VF-1 at the very least, if they're supposedly replacing the VF-1, in whole or in part, as a planetary defense forces fighter.

ShadowLogan wrote:I've reviewed screen captures of the animation. Width looks to be closer to 10ft, length looks about right. That's not a large walk-in closet, that's a small bedroom.

That's still a damnably small area and there are only four operator stations therein... and that's the whole bridge. There's no lower level, no specialized control areas... there's not even a captain's chair. The old men we see in the series are the ship's ENTIRE COMMAND CREW.

ShadowLogan wrote:The only garfish interior we see in the animation is the Old Timers. Nor are we given a grand tour. We only see the bridge, hold, and a rec-room (large enough for 7+5=12 people w/room to spare).

Considering the OSM-correct Garfish stats give it a theoretical maximum crew of only around 2 dozen...

ShadowLogan wrote:The Ship is also supposed to be modular, so the ship could be reconfigured for a given mission. An armed freighter isn't going to need the same crew as one acting as a mini-carrier or science/recon vessel. And it is reasonable that the Old Timers Garfish was in an armed freighter configuration given their supply of arms they had for sale that are said to be issued to them.

The only Garfish configurations we see are frontline warships... the one the "old timers" had was identical in every respect to the others that were used in the original animation, and differs in only a couple minor details from the ones in RTSC.

ShadowLogan wrote:In any case there is another reason to have naval ships deployed. Approximately 75% of the Earth's surface is covered in water. We know from the animation that Earth had Ground Radar to call up on should satellites go down. In order to have optimal coverage of the Earth for minimal blindspots, they would need to have some ships or bases out at sea.

And what do we see in the series if not ironclad proof that their coverage is far, FAR less than optimal? There are no ships. Everything we see, and everything their is evidence for, is ground-based defenses operating from garrisons and airstrips in close proximity to the few remaining cities.

Wait, wait! We're actually attempting to apply logic and reason to 3 entirely separate series that were hacked up and sewn together to try and make a single continuous story line? Don't get me wrong I grew up on RT long before I ever realized that Macross ever existed, and I LOVE RT, but we KNOW that the seperate series don't make sense nor do they follow the same path as Macross technology wise Wouldn't it be better to accept that insted of frying our brains to try and explain it? We could always blame PB and Tommy for it y'know.

keir451 wrote:Wait, wait! We're actually attempting to apply logic and reason to 3 entirely separate series that were hacked up and sewn together to try and make a single continuous story line?

Actually, what I'm doing is more along the lines of offering a visceral demonstration of why the argument "They would do X, because X is the logical solution" (in this case, have a "wet" navy) doesn't work within the context of Robotech... precisely because the stitched-together nature of the show and the terribly low quality and lack of consistency in the writing leaves the whole military in the metaseries perpetually holding an idiot ball so massive that light cannot escape its surface.

Amusingly, this isn't confined to the series itself either... the RPG's stats often make no sense whatsoever even though they're not obliged to actually follow the series and are often shooting in the dark.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

keir451 wrote:Wait, wait! We're actually attempting to apply logic and reason to 3 entirely separate series that were hacked up and sewn together to try and make a single continuous story line?

Actually, what I'm doing is more along the lines of offering a visceral demonstration of why the argument "They would do X, because X is the logical solution" (in this case, have a "wet" navy) doesn't work within the context of Robotech... precisely because the stitched-together nature of the show and the terribly low quality and lack of consistency in the writing leaves the whole military in the metaseries perpetually holding an idiot ball so massive that light cannot escape its surface.

Amusingly, this isn't confined to the series itself either... the RPG's stats often make no sense whatsoever even though they're not obliged to actually follow the series and are often shooting in the dark.

And this is why I'm doing my alt project.

Anyways good read guys, I'll have to consider this when writing my project.

Chronicler wrote:And this is why I'm doing my alt project.

And why, when I used both the RT and Macross II games as a starting point for a pure Macross game, I ended up using what felt like more red ink than the original books had black ink.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

keir451 wrote:Wait, wait! We're actually attempting to apply logic and reason to 3 entirely separate series that were hacked up and sewn together to try and make a single continuous story line?

Actually, what I'm doing is more along the lines of offering a visceral demonstration of why the argument "They would do X, because X is the logical solution" (in this case, have a "wet" navy) doesn't work within the context of Robotech... precisely because the stitched-together nature of the show and the terribly low quality and lack of consistency in the writing leaves the whole military in the metaseries perpetually holding an idiot ball so massive that light cannot escape its surface.

Amusingly, this isn't confined to the series itself either... the RPG's stats often make no sense whatsoever even though they're not obliged to actually follow the series and are often shooting in the dark.

Yep. It's always one thing to say "They'd do X" when the show depicts otherwise and the RPG at times even contradicts the show! So I just go "huh???!" throw up my hands and make my house rules, 'cause, as we've seen , on person's idea of what's "logical" and "right' aren't always the same as another persons. Of course if they were then the world wouldn't be as fun.

Seto wrote:'s one of the more glaring issues with the use of Southern Cross... the mecha just don't make sense from any logical perspective. ...

This whole line of thinking though can find its origins in the plugging in the OSM stats for performance metrics. And to really “fix” requires a rewrite of performance stats (basic dimensions are about the only thing that one can plug in from the OSM) from the ground up. Really HG does have a lot more flexibility in terms of performance since dialogue doesn't establish and redlines, and need not contradict the visuals. Something like that WAS done in terms of the 1E RPG (not looking at the game mechanic stats, but the stat block). That is the true source of the whole issue here, shoe-horning in the OSM and trying to come up with an explanation to explain issues.

I do not dispute that UEDF-ASC and UEEF set some poor requirements, but their technology base is not a backslide. For what ever reason, Earth's military doctrine changed post R.O.D., which influenced the requirements that where set. That doctrine was likely influenced by the war with the Zentraedi, but we have to remember that the ASC did not end up fighting someone on par with the Zentraedi, they fought someone who was superior to the Zentraedi. Doctrine seemed to favor using ICBM-missiles over fighters to engage capital ships ("False Start" and Komodo) with nothing to actually show for it, so if huge ICBMs can't do it, missiles carried by fighters (both Falcon, Slyphid, and Chimera do attack a cityship) certainly won't even if they carried TMS era missiles shown to destroy Zentraedi ships (which are all smaller than a Cityship, which is said to be 5miles long in dialogue).

About the only faction that the ASC might be equipped to deal with is the mysterious Space Pirates that get mentioned in “Half-Moon”, though there likely are criminal elements out there. The ASC mecha might actually be better suited to the guerrilla operations during the Invid Occupation as they lack a reliance on expendable ordnance (like RDF/REF). Engaged in mass formations, all the factions come up short in staying power against the Invid.

Seto wrote:We're talking about two aircraft that were built around most of the same technology, using the same type of engines and power systems, both intended to fight against an alien invasion. It's as apples-to-apples as it gets without it simply being a comparison between two examples of the same plane.

No it isn’t. The doctrine the non-variable aircraft are used for is much more limited compared to a Veritech. That means some of their performance metrics are going to be more limited.

Seto wrote:You're the one who was arguing that these fighters are meant to defend the entire planet, rather than a small section of it around the few existing cities... are you recanting that position? There is no reason to not have the same sortie range as a VF-1 at the very least, if they're supposedly replacing the VF-1, in whole or in part, as a planetary defense forces fighter.

I’m also arguing that those fighters are going to be deployed in a more distributed pattern to defend the planet, that won’t require them to have the same sortie range as the VF-1 because they will by default be closer to the area they have to defend so have a lack of need for that long range/endurance. The more distributed locations also means that units can respond to local incursions much quicker.

Seto wrote: The old men we see in the series are the ship's ENTIRE COMMAND CREW.

Their the only crew that is left you mean. From an intentions standpoint there have to be more crewers to give them relief to eat & sleep, handle repairs, and repel any boarders, etc during their regular operation. Lets not forget that there where in fact five people who staffed the Garfish trading outpost, not 4.

Seto wrote:Considering the OSM-correct Garfish stats give it a theoretical maximum crew of only around 2 dozen...

Which might make sense for the OSM for an inter-planetary vessel, but the RT version is an INTER-Stellar vessel. Crew requirements are going to be more demanding. Volume wise there is not an issue in fitting in 97 people using the total volume available to the Garfish, not what is seen.

Seto wrote:The only Garfish configurations we see are front line warships... the one the "old timers" had was identical in every respect to the others that were used in the original animation, and differs in only a couple minor details from the ones in RTSC.

Externally you mean. Internally the ship should also be capable of being reconfigured for a given mission. The Old Timers appear to have been tasked with delivering a large quantity of small arms (based on their displayed wares) by all indications, which means they could have turned quarters into supply closets.

Seto wrote:And what do we see in the series if not ironclad proof that their coverage is far, FAR less than optimal? There are no ships. Everything we see, and everything their is evidence for, is ground-based defenses operating from garrisons and airstrips in close proximity to the few remaining cities.

Not exactly. Toward the end (last few episodes forget the exact one) we see a Desert “Igloo” (dome) in the middle of no where. This isn't the greenish/gray of the area around the mounds, this was yellow sand and all (more like "Sand Storms" or the second act of Invid Invasion). Clearly the ASC is more dispersed than being in close proximity to the cities.

ShadowLogan wrote:This whole line of thinking though can find its origins in the plugging in the OSM stats for performance metrics.

Actually, in this case it's not... this is something "pure" Robotech that very clearly does not make a lick of sense. There are no hard stats for non-transforming mecha of Southern Cross, and most are not even lucky enough to have a freaking name.

The "plugging in" of OSM stats was an effort to fix the vast amounts of completely illogical gibberish that the RPG and various fans had inflicted on the series.

ShadowLogan wrote:I do not dispute that UEDF-ASC and UEEF set some poor requirements, but their technology base is not a backslide.

You're arguing against the evidence... and, to be frank, Harmony Gold's stance on the matter. If there's no backslide, why do these fighters have the same basic size and weight as a VF-1, the same fuel types and engine technology, and yet they're slower, have lower flight ceilings, and a tiny fraction of the total range?

ShadowLogan wrote:For what ever reason, Earth's military doctrine changed post R.O.D., which influenced the requirements that where set.

Putting a crazy mass-murdering traitor in charge probably wasn't the smartest idea...

ShadowLogan wrote:That doctrine was likely influenced by the war with the Zentraedi, but we have to remember that the ASC did not end up fighting someone on par with the Zentraedi, they fought someone who was superior to the Zentraedi.

The ASC fought someone who was superior to the Zentradi when fighting at the top of their game... and the series makes no bones about the fact that the Masters were NOT fighting at anywhere near an ideal condition.

ShadowLogan wrote:Doctrine seemed to favor using ICBM-missiles over fighters to engage capital ships ("False Start" and Komodo) with nothing to actually show for it, so if huge ICBMs can't do it, missiles carried by fighters (both Falcon, Slyphid, and Chimera do attack a cityship) certainly won't even if they carried TMS era missiles shown to destroy Zentraedi ships (which are all smaller than a Cityship, which is said to be 5miles long in dialogue).

That's based on a false assumption... they don't appear to be using reflex warheads anymore, and went back to conventional nuclear ordinance per the official stats. It's not surprising that the weapons are a great deal less effective. Reflex weapons were adequate against the Zentradi... assaulting the Masters with fission bombs is probably not much better than attacking them with a box of party snaps.

ShadowLogan wrote:No it isn’t. The doctrine the non-variable aircraft are used for is much more limited compared to a Veritech.

It's mostly the same... at least when it comes to air combat and anti-warship use.

ShadowLogan wrote:I’m also arguing that those fighters are going to be deployed in a more distributed pattern to defend the planet, that won’t require them to have the same sortie range as the VF-1 because they will by default be closer to the area they have to defend so have a lack of need for that long range/endurance.

Still makes no sense, because we see in the series that that's not the case... that the UEDF doesn't give even one single solitary damn about the planet outside the cities. If they did, why would their patrols to the vicinity of enemy activity be two unarmored schmucks on motorbikes?

When battles tend to drag on, and the enemy can retreat to space, having a fighter with an aggressively limited flight ceiling and very short sortie range isn't practical by any stretch of the imagination.

ShadowLogan wrote:Which might make sense for the OSM for an inter-planetary vessel, but the RT version is an INTER-Stellar vessel. Crew requirements are going to be more demanding.

Your proof for this assumption is? This is an era where you can run a two kilometer capital ship with a dozen or so people...

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:I do not dispute that UEDF-ASC and UEEF set some poor requirements, but their technology base is not a backslide.

You're arguing against the evidence... and, to be frank, Harmony Gold's stance on the matter. If there's no backslide, why do these fighters have the same basic size and weight as a VF-1, the same fuel types and engine technology, and yet they're slower, have lower flight ceilings, and a tiny fraction of the total range?

Because the people who did the workups for the RPG didn't have clue as to how to best represent a forward leap in technology (a common problem w/PB) and perhaps suffered for the cut & paste syndrome common to ALL PB works.

keir451 wrote:Because the people who did the workups for the RPG didn't have clue as to how to best represent a forward leap in technology (a common problem w/PB) [...]

... I'll admit, I have a hard time buying that explanation for the simple reason that 2,608 < Infinity.

keir451 wrote:[...] and perhaps suffered for the cut & paste syndrome common to ALL PB works.

From what?! Have they done stats for the F-4 Phantom, by any chance?

(Because, honestly, if they'd copypasta'd newer real-world aircraft the endurance of the ASC's fighters wouldn't be so poor.)

Seto Kaiba wrote:

keir451 wrote:Because the people who did the workups for the RPG didn't have clue as to how to best represent a forward leap in technology (a common problem w/PB) [...]

... I'll admit, I have a hard time buying that explanation for the simple reason that 2,608 < Infinity.

keir451 wrote:[...] and perhaps suffered for the cut & paste syndrome common to ALL PB works.

From what?! Have they done stats for the F-4 Phantom, by any chance?

(Because, honestly, if they'd copypasta'd newer real-world aircraft the endurance of the ASC's fighters wouldn't be so poor.)

You'd think so, but I've seen many an error where the stats for one vehicle were copied and pasted from another or vehicles were nerfed to suit Kevin's ideas of game balance.
As for reperesenting technology. well we've seen the disparity between what the anime depicts and the RPG depicts so I blame the differences on the game creators and THEIR ideas of what the tech does and does not do. Along with, probably, poor translations of the OSM. I've no idea what the original descriptions of the original SC anime had for vehicles the but, as you've already pointed out w/M2, PB didn't do a good job gettng the info right. And again the original shows weren't supposed to be continuations of each other so trying to make them so means that they made mistakes and apparently didn't consider things all that carefully. If you don't agree with the stats as given change them, if you think they wouldn't need wet Navy vessels, change it. It's YOUR game.

Seto wrote:Actually, in this case it's not... this is something "pure" Robotech that very clearly does not make a lick of sense. There are no hard stats for non-transforming mecha of Southern Cross, and most are not even lucky enough to have a freaking name.

Maybe, maybe not. But if the viewpoint of HG is going in with some preconceived notion of inferiority, they end up with a self-fulfilling belief even though by dialogue the ASC was ready to deal with the Zentraedi as established in "False Start" by Emerson when one of his two aides (sorry can't keep them straight) asks "Well Gen. Emerson if they're Zentraedi do you really think we stand much of a chance against them" and Emerson's reply is "Don't worry we're set".

Seto wrote:You're arguing against the evidence... and, to be frank, Harmony Gold's stance on the matter. If there's no backslide, why do these fighters have the same basic size and weight as a VF-1, the same fuel types and engine technology, and yet they're slower, have lower flight ceilings, and a tiny fraction of the total range?

No I'm not. HG does allow the VF-X-4 to have been produced after all, it lost due to cost. Dialogue establishes that the ASC was set to deal with the Zentraedi. That means the technology base itself is sound, even the requirements might be sound depending on the doctrine. But the appearance of a backslide is really in forgetting that those requirements likely evolved from analysis of fighting the Zentraedi and they ended up fighting someone far Superior.

Seto wrote:The ASC fought someone who was superior to the Zentradi when fighting at the top of their game... and the series makes no bones about the fact that the Masters were NOT fighting at anywhere near an ideal condition.

Which should tell us something. If the ASC was considered capable of handling the Zentreadi (and dialogue indicates they thought that), and the Masters aren't in top form, and the ASC had issues with them. Then the Masters are a technologically outclassing the Zentraedi by several orders of magnitude, even in the depleted state they where in meaning there really isn't a backslide.

Seto wrote:That's based on a false assumption... they don't appear to be using reflex warheads anymore, and went back to conventional nuclear ordinance per the official stats. It's not surprising that the weapons are a great deal less effective. Reflex weapons were adequate against the Zentradi... assaulting the Masters with fission bombs is probably not much better than attacking them with a box of party snaps.

The Masters Cityships is 7.2km x 8.8km x .6-1.2km with a typical mass of 6,280,000,000tons
Zen. Landing/Carrier is 3.0km x 0.5km x .48km with a typical mass of 0,150,000,000tons
Zent Cmd (overall) is 2.7km x 0.8km x .74km with a typical mass of 0,100,000,000tons
Zent Destroyer is 2.3km x 0.9km x .76km with a typical mass of 0,039,500,000tons
Zent Flagship is 4.0km x 0.6km x .65km with a typical mass of 0,170,000,000tons
Zent Scout is 0.5km x 0.2km x .36km with a typical mass of 0,001,525,000tons

The largest target I could find in RT that that Reflex Missiles carried by fighters are used on is the Zentraedi Destroyer class. While multiple warheads might suffice, they would be attacking a target with ~159times the mass of a Destroyer, not to mention equipped with force fields. The Cityship is easily larger than any Zentraedi ship of the line (Dolza's base and the RFS not considered ships of the line). So it is doubtful if Reflex Heads would be able to do the job (againts the Masters smaller ships is another matter).

The Missiles the ASC has though are called "hyper-cobalt", so who knows what they might actually be because of the "hyper" designation. However they likely are not a true RL cobalt bomb (which is an enhanced radiation bomb for Nuclear fission or fusion weapons), as the NG team used Cobalt mines/grenades to blow the dam. So whatever Cobalt explosives are, they do not appear to be conventional nuclear weapon with enhanced radiation effects and likely nothing more than techno-babble.

Seto wrote:It's mostly the same... at least when it comes to air combat and anti-warship use.

No argument in that aspect. But there are doctrine requirements outside those areas (as a Veritech Fighter would), that can influence the design.

Seto wrote:Still makes no sense, because we see in the series that that's not the case... that the UEDF doesn't give even one single solitary damn about the planet outside the cities. If they did, why would their patrols to the vicinity of enemy activity be two unarmored schmucks on motorbikes?

I disagree. When the Masters give their ultimatum to abandon Earth, Leonard doesn't say "Hey you can have XYZ territory, but ABC territory is ours". Even Emerson in his face to face "negotiations" indicates the UEDF favors the Earth and not just regions.

As for the patrol nature, cost effectiveness would be my guess. The fact those patrol exists indicates they did give a dam about what went on outside the cities.

Seto wrote:When battles tend to drag on, and the enemy can retreat to space, having a fighter with an aggressively limited flight ceiling and very short sortie range isn't practical by any stretch of the imagination.

If the 1RW is any indication, the capability might have been under used to the point that the UEDF-ASC felt the added cost of the capacity wasn't needed as stand-by missiles could work just as well. Something like this isn't without precedent in the real world. Consider that the F-14 & AIM-54 missile combo was replaced by the F/A-18E/F & AIM-120 missile combo, in many respects the navy was getting a shorter range fighter and missile, along with a missile that was slower.

Seto wrote:Your proof for this assumption is? This is an era where you can run a two kilometer capital ship with a dozen or so people...

That you can run any ship with a skeleton crew isn't in doubt, but the skeleton crew doesn't give a true indication of how many people are required to run a ship optimally.

Seto wrote:From what?! Have they done stats for the F-4 Phantom, by any chance?

Off hand I know they have done the A-10, F-16, C-130, UH-60, AH-64, AH-1W (plus some more realworld platforms) in Rifts Merc Ops, the F-14 in CS Navy. However compared to realworld values, they don't really stack up well and some might not realize that those ranges are w/external tanks or specific configurations or conditions (combat radius vs ferry range as ex.). That is the true problem with assigning ranges and such, they are usually with a specific configurations and/or objectives in mind.

Asking for land vehicles might have a much better selection as it would include the Compendium of Modern Weapons, and Rifts Merc Ops and Mercenaries (though here some may be pulled from CoMW).

keir451 wrote:You'd think so, but I've seen many an error where the stats for one vehicle were copied and pasted from another or vehicles were nerfed to suit Kevin's ideas of game balance.

I'm not sure it really counts as "NERFing" if the stats were completely arbitrary to begin with... it's one of many things I try to correct when I wade in with my red correction pen after a new book comes out.

keir451 wrote:As for reperesenting technology. well we've seen the disparity between what the anime depicts and the RPG depicts so I blame the differences on the game creators and THEIR ideas of what the tech does and does not do.

That's actually not as much of an issue in 2E, and even less of an issue in this specific case, since all of the mecha in Southern Cross were depicted as kind of rubbish... most of them being nameless filler mecha.

keir451 wrote:Along with, probably, poor translations of the OSM.

Where Southern Cross's awful designs are concerned, not s'much... the overwhelming majority of the background designs weren't even given names by the original creators of the material. The only one of the regular fighters that even had a name was what the RPG calls the Sylphid... and there's some small amount of contention over whether that's even an accurate translation of the name, its name being quite literally the only detail lavished upon the frequently off-model fighter.

Pretty much the only mecha that got ANY detail at all were the Spartas, the Logan, the Auroran, and the Bioroid... and of those, the only one that got more than the most basic detail was the Spartas. Of all the other designs in the series, only the military police robot (Garm) and the Sylphid fighter got names, all the rest didn't even get that much. The many background mecha that are completely irrelevant to the series or don't even appear, that the RPG lavished many wasted pages on? They're just "<Branch> Robot" on the one piece of art for each that exists.

keir451 wrote:If you don't agree with the stats as given change them, if you think they wouldn't need wet Navy vessels, change it. It's YOUR game.

Well, my argument is more along the line of "these stats are clearly nonsensical" coupled with "and there isn't any need for a frigging blue-water navy anyway"... and certainly not one using something as totally massive as a Prometheus-class supercarrier. The Navy in the original Southern Cross (and in Robotech too, by the look of it) is of the "Two drunk men with rifles in a rowboat" variety, or maybe "Novelty two-seater paddleboat shaped like an aircraft carrier" class at best.

ShadowLogan wrote:Maybe, maybe not. But if the viewpoint of HG is going in with some preconceived notion of inferiority, they end up with a self-fulfilling belief even though by dialogue the ASC was ready to deal with the Zentraedi as established in "False Start" by Emerson [...]

Considering how bewilderingly and massively incompetent every last one of the ASC brass is, that's more "hilarious in hindsight" than a statement of fact. They might've believed they were fit to fight a Zentradi fleet, but the reality is demonstrated fairly swiftly... they can't defend a handful of clustered cities which are all within spitting distance of military HQ from an enemy that's underpowered and fighting, at best, in what could be described as a singularly uncommitted to the idea of fighting at all and is doing so at what was effectively a tiny fraction of their effective capacity.

They couldn't break up a Zentradi garden party.

ShadowLogan wrote:when one of his two aides (sorry can't keep them straight) asks "Well Gen. Emerson if they're Zentraedi do you really think we stand much of a chance against them" and Emerson's reply is "Don't worry we're set".

Have we considered that General Emerson is, in fact, suicidal? Or suicidally arrogant, anyway. He was operating under the assumption that Leonard was a competent leader, which does argue strongly that he's recently suffered a blow to the head, or has a bad case of mad cow.

Or is "We're set" the new code for "We're screwed"?

ShadowLogan wrote:Dialogue establishes that the ASC was set to deal with the Zentraedi.

... followed, in short order, by a demonstration that they were hopelessly outclassed by a few dozen of the enemy at best, all of whom were conspicuously less heavily-armed than the Zentradi.

ShadowLogan wrote:That means the technology base itself is sound, [...]

Except that their confidence (arrogance?) is shown to be completely and utterly unwarranted in the most tragic and graphic way possible at every turn... like the UEDF council before them, but with less excuses in terms of ignorance.

ShadowLogan wrote:Which should tell us something.

That the ASC equipment was rubbish and its leadership incompetent... which happens to be the view the creative staff endorses, and something the RPG hangs a lampshade on by going so far as to suggest that the ASC had this equipment foisted on them because Leonard was butthurt over the UEEF having priority for resources.

ShadowLogan wrote:The largest target I could find in RT that that Reflex Missiles carried by fighters are used on is the Zentraedi Destroyer class.

The missiles Komodo fires are more analogous to the far larger, anti-warship missiles fired by starships in the previous war... the kind of thing that popped Dolza's fortress like a balloon.

ShadowLogan wrote:The Missiles the ASC has though are called "hyper-cobalt", so who knows what they might actually be because of the "hyper" designation.

There's no need for questioning, because the Infopedia straightfacedly tell us the ASC is using nuclear warheads.

ShadowLogan wrote:As for the patrol nature, cost effectiveness would be my guess. The fact those patrol exists indicates they did give a dam about what went on outside the cities.

... if you intend to patrol an area, you want the patrol to actually be able to DO something. The patrol they sent is about as impotent as it gets, which shows when they're promptly defeated and one of 'em ends up captured.

So, inane "Southern Cross is bad because I mean gosh just look at it" aside...

For a planet capable of constructing, outfitting, crewing, and operating multiple interstellar fleets it's hard to posit a wet navy as difficult, let alone beyond their capabilities. Especially with ships of the classes we see during the Masters Saga wandering the confines of the Tirolian Empire by 2013. A planet that's as much water as Earth is will have travel of people and commerce by sea, and with the surface being battered its likely commercial fishing is more important than ever. So, reason to field a navy. I will say that an aircraft carrier is overkill unless you are needing the capability to fight another major navy.

I'll point out it appears to be separate from the Southern Cross, though, which has a Surface branch with ground forces and an Aersospace branch; the Tactical Corps' Navy Division is described as naval infantry and special forces with some littoral assets, not as a navy.

I'll also point out that as far as Dana and Bowie's patrol goes, nothing points to them patrolling for enemy activity. They were randomly patrolling near an off-limits sector that they mildly note should have nothing (which seems more like a garrison-duty crap detail than anything) and probably were expected to encounter nothing more serious than looky-loos or maybe lost campers at worst. So yeah.

Seto Kaiba wrote:the overwhelming majority of the background designs weren't even given names by the original creators of the material

What do you expect from a one-off anime that wasn't meant to be part of a series?

Seto Kaiba wrote:Well, my argument is more along the line of "these stats are clearly nonsensical" coupled with "and there isn't any need for a frigging blue-water navy anyway"... and certainly not one using something as totally massive as a Prometheus-class supercarrier. The Navy in the original Southern Cross (and in Robotech too, by the look of it) is of the "Two drunk men with rifles in a rowboat" variety, or maybe "Novelty two-seater paddleboat shaped like an aircraft carrier" class at best.

Of course the stats are nonsensical, ALL the stats in the PB are nonsensical as they're made up to represent the author's ideas of wha thye should be (which is at times extremely laughable). As for the Navy, "Don't judge a book by it's cover", you can't really take the anime representations as accurate, the original SC anime really didn't depict the Navy all that much and other than the Daedalus and Prometheus in Macross we only see two small ships in Invid Invason so we've no real idea of what naval forces the ASC really had, so of course it's all conjecture and made up. Now being ex-US Navy I'm admittedly partial to the idea of a wet water Navy, but I'm not going to argue my prejudices here. I'll just say that whether or not the game creators wanted to depict one (which they did) is up to them, whether or not YOU agree that it should have been listed is up to you, so if you don't like it leave it out.

Sgt Anjay wrote:For a planet capable of constructing, outfitting, crewing, and operating multiple interstellar fleets it's hard to posit a wet navy as difficult, let alone beyond their capabilities.

*cough* What planet? The fleets were built in space, by one or more moon-sized factory satellites that the Earth forces nicked from the Zentradi. Factory satellites that, I might add, vanished into one of their many plot holes between the time the SDF-3 launched and the time the Masters arrived. That might give the false impression that Earth had a significant manufacturing infrastructure.

(It's suggested in official material that most, if not all, of the Earth Forces' R&D was done at installations like Space Station Liberty... which was also the Earth Forces principal shipyard.)

Sgt Anjay wrote:A planet that's as much water as Earth is will have travel of people and commerce by sea, and with the surface being battered its likely commercial fishing is more important than ever.

Unless, of course, the situation were what we see in the animation... a handful of cities located out in the middle of a vast desert. One does not normally travel or conduct commerce over nonexistent inland waterways... the "nonexistent" part being a little hard on the boat.

With the few cities on Earth clustered fairly close together, and apparently all accessible over land, there doesn't seem to be a hell of a lot of call for a wet navy... though this is clearly a function of the original's setting, where the planet in question (Glorie) had less than 40% of its surface covered by water, and half of the available land (30% of the planet's surface, or roughly the same amount of total landmass that we enjoy here on Earth) was underneath glaciers. There wasn't a hell of a lot of call for a navy of any kind when the planet was sparsely populated and had relatively few large bodies of water.

Sgt Anjay wrote:I'll also point out that as far as Dana and Bowie's patrol goes, nothing points to them patrolling for enemy activity. They were randomly patrolling near an off-limits sector that they mildly note should have nothing (which seems more like a garrison-duty crap detail than anything) and probably were expected to encounter nothing more serious than looky-loos or maybe lost campers at worst. So yeah.

That actually makes it worse, not better... this allegedly complete planetary defense network can't detect enemies landing on their frigging doorstep? INSIDE routine patrol routes within a few hours drive from the planetary capital?

That'd be like having a city drop out of the sky a few dozen miles from D.C. and having nobody notice!

keir451 wrote:What do you expect from a one-off anime that wasn't meant to be part of a series?

Considering that the goal of the original Southern Cross series was to capitalize on the successes of the original Macross, and was made by people who subsequently proved that they're actually pretty damn good at making mecha shows? Rather a lot more than we got... when you look at it in context, the lack of info in Southern Cross's material is a distressing aberration. Especially since they clearly put quite a bit of work into designing the various variants of the Arming Doublet.

keir451 wrote:Of course the stats are nonsensical, ALL the stats in the PB are nonsensical as they're made up to represent the author's ideas of wha thye should be [...]

Not all... the stats for the fusion-powered engines on the VF-1 and Logan, for instance, are actually a realistic range, or even slightly conservative if NASA's position paper on fusion turbines is anything to go by. (By their math, the VF-1 should have enough fuel to circumnavigate the Earth a few dozen times in supersonic flight without any drop tanks or anything like that.) The information pinched from the OSM makes reasonable sense as well.

If they're using fusion engines and the same fuel as the VF-1, those fighters should have the same (or greater) operational ranges... we're talking flight times measured in days, and sortie ranges measured in hundreds of thousands of kilometers.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:For a planet capable of constructing, outfitting, crewing, and operating multiple interstellar fleets it's hard to posit a wet navy as difficult, let alone beyond their capabilities.

*cough* What planet? The fleets were built in space

Even if your supposition that 100% of all construction was space-based and Earth hasn't recovered, which I am no way obliged to agree with, then my answer is: the planet outfitting, crewing, and operating multiple interstellar fleets. Worst case scenario, there's people running the equipment building them ships (Tirolian factory satellites are certainly not cranking out human designs on their own), there's people making sure the ships have everything they need for the human crew in them, and there's people crewing them ships. People from planet Earth. Human-designed ships, which, again, were observed in interstellar space by the Robotech Masters by 2013.

But to me, once it is established Earth is brilliant at reverse engineering, and you add that they have working Tirolian automated factories in their hands, Earth-based manufacturing seems guaranteed a helping hand even if space-based construction of Earth's multiple interstellar fleets is the norm.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:A planet that's as much water as Earth is will have travel of people and commerce by sea, and with the surface being battered its likely commercial fishing is more important than ever.

Unless, of course, the situation were what we see in the animation

There isn't enough of a world shown to draw any sort of accurate conclusion of the global view of the Earth from just the animation. But given it's bounced back enough to become an interstellar power, and it has, I'm disinclined to minimize it's capabilities.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:I'll also point out that as far as Dana and Bowie's patrol goes, nothing points to them patrolling for enemy activity. They were randomly patrolling near an off-limits sector that they mildly note should have nothing (which seems more like a garrison-duty crap detail than anything) and probably were expected to encounter nothing more serious than looky-loos or maybe lost campers at worst. So yeah.

That actually makes it worse, not better

That actually makes it consistent with the first two episodes of the Masters Saga, is what it makes it. You know, the ones wherein we are explicitly shown the Masters are advanced enough to arrive in the Solar System, observe Earth, and launch attacks with complete stealth? It demonstrates the impressive power of the Masters. Even the Zentraedi set off every alarm ever on primitive ol' Earth when they came blundering in looking for the SDF-1.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

keir451 wrote:What do you expect from a one-off anime that wasn't meant to be part of a series?

Considering that the goal of the original Southern Cross series was to capitalize on the successes of the original Macross, and was made by people who subsequently proved that they're actually pretty damn good at making mecha shows? Rather a lot more than we got... when you look at it in context, the lack of info in Southern Cross's material is a distressing aberration. Especially since they clearly put quite a bit of work into designing the various variants of the Arming Doublet.

keir451 wrote:Of course the stats are nonsensical, ALL the stats in the PB are nonsensical as they're made up to represent the author's ideas of what they should be [...]

Not all... the stats for the fusion-powered engines on the VF-1 and Logan, for instance, are actually a realistic range, or even slightly conservative if NASA's position paper on fusion turbines is anything to go by. (By their math, the VF-1 should have enough fuel to circumnavigate the Earth a few dozen times in supersonic flight without any drop tanks or anything like that.) The information pinched from the OSM makes reasonable sense as well.

If they're using fusion engines and the same fuel as the VF-1, those fighters should have the same (or greater) operational ranges... we're talking flight times measured in days, and sortie ranges measured in hundreds of thousands of kilometers.

It's certainly true that they tried to capitalize off of Macross, and, Yes, there should have been more material. But what we've got is what we've got, we just kinda have to0 live with it and make the rest up as we go along.
While some of the ideas are certainly correct and realistic, we ARE talking Palladium Books here. How many times have we seen them get something wrong or the like? Often enough that it's become a common complaint. Even in GOOD anime I've seen inconsistencies in the ideas they throw around to make their shows more "awesome' and the like so I tend to take things like that and just shrug as I go to others to help me figure out the right way to do it. Waht we may have here is the standard PB inconsistancy in production, they used some stats from one vehicle but chenged the rest to suit their concepts. It's the explanation that makes the most sense, to me at least.
As for a naval force, well, I think that subject has been beaten to death already so I'll leave it alone.

Sgt Anjay wrote:Even if your supposition that 100% of all construction was space-based and Earth hasn't recovered, which I am no way obliged to agree with, [...]

While you certainly have a right to disagree if it suits you, I would wonder what evidence you would cite to support that objection...

After all, the Robotech metaseries thus far has shown us only one exception to Earth's shipbuilding occurring in space... the SDF-1. Mind you, that's not really shipbuilding so much as it is improvised repair to a ship too badly damaged to return to orbit under its own power. From the ARMDs onward, the ships have either been built either in orbital space (e.g. the ARMDs in "From the Stars") or built in a dock complex like the one in Prelude or the factory satellite dockyards seen in both Sentinels and RTSC.

Sgt Anjay wrote:then my answer is: the planet outfitting, crewing, and operating multiple interstellar fleets.

Crewing, perhaps... and operating is simply a function of crewing, but even that peters out after a little while, and the outfitting is probably sourced to the same factories in space that are outfitting the other fleets.

Sgt Anjay wrote:But to me, once it is established Earth is brilliant at reverse engineering, and you add that they have working Tirolian automated factories in their hands, [...]

Pretty thoroughly subverted, actually... in that the Robotech version of the story has humanity not understand how a lot of what's in the SDF-1 works, and being unable to independently reproduce critical systems like fold drives until much later. A lot of what was chalked up to the booby trap scrambling the SDF-1's original alien systems in Macross is, instead, ascribed to mistakes in repair made by human engineers rebuilding alien technology. The RTSC art book paints a somewhat less than flattering, but in hindsight somewhat realistic, of humanity struggling to reproduce alien technology even decades after it dropped in their laps.

If we were talking Macross, you would absolutely be correct... because humanity not only repaired the factory satellites (plural) they captured, they built their own scaled-down versions. That's why the ships of the 2010s and 2020s are built around salvaged alien hardware instead of human-original tech.

Sgt Anjay wrote:There isn't enough of a world shown to draw any sort of accurate conclusion of the global view of the Earth from just the animation. But given it's bounced back enough to become an interstellar power, and it has, I'm disinclined to minimize it's capabilities.

That's... kinda my point, in a way. What we see of inhabited Earth is generally implied to be ALL of what humanity has "reclaimed", or at least the vast majority thereof. It's pretty much pure desert, and there's little call for a navy in the desert. I wouldn't really call it an interstellar power, though, since they can't (and in fact, haven't) occupied a single planet outside their home solar system, and their own planet got occupied by a hostile alien race.

They're less an interstellar power and more an interstellar curbstomp victim... they've yet to actually win any kind of interstellar war, or even really be competitive in one.

Sgt Anjay wrote:That actually makes it consistent with the first two episodes of the Masters Saga, is what it makes it. You know, the ones wherein we are explicitly shown the Masters are advanced enough to arrive in the Solar System, observe Earth, and launch attacks with complete stealth?

It's not really complete if you're detected... and they WERE detected, repeatedly. The catch being the first few times they were detected on approach, they killed the everloving hell out the people who saw them before they could get a message out. Still impressive, but not nearly as much as parking a flying city within eyeshot of the capital and having NOBODY notice.

keir451 wrote:It's certainly true that they tried to capitalize off of Macross, and, Yes, there should have been more material.

You have no idea... the art from its contemporaries is so detailed you can practically start counting the rivets and welds, and even work out the number of bullets each weapon holds. Southern Cross is almost entirely a blank slate. It's so out of character for the period and the industry. I mean, I could easily tell you what every single button and switch on a VR-052 or VF-1 does... I can't even tell you in official terms what the Spartas is powered by.

keir451 wrote:While some of the ideas are certainly correct and realistic, we ARE talking Palladium Books here. How many times have we seen them get something wrong or the like?

5x10^8 or thereabouts.

keir451 wrote:Even in GOOD anime I've seen inconsistencies in the ideas they throw around to make their shows more "awesome' and the like so I tend to take things like that and just shrug as I go to others to help me figure out the right way to do it.

Even then, the inconsistencies are usually pretty well-documented... and what goes into the animation is usually covered in pretty exhaustive detail. The whole industry makes a lot of money off publications the TVTropes crowd would lump under "It's all there in the manual". I mean a LOT of money. (Hell, just as a off-the-cuff estimate for one publication... Macross Chronicle brings in about $580 per person who collects it, and that's no patch on Gundam, whose version of same is over 140 volumes with no sign of stopping.)

As far as the RPG is concerned though, the ASC is mentioned to have a major naval base in the Mediterranean Sea in NG SB. Clearly the ASC has a wet Navy as far as the RPG-verse is concerned. The question then becomes what type ships they would have, and what type of wet navy they are set up to act as.

Seto wrote:Considering how bewilderingly and massively incompetent every last one of the ASC brass is, that's more "hilarious in hindsight" than a statement of fact. They might've believed they were fit to fight a Zentradi fleet, but the reality is demonstrated fairly swiftly... they can't defend a handful of clustered cities which are all within spitting distance of military HQ from an enemy that's underpowered and fighting, at best, in what could be described as a singularly uncommitted to the idea of fighting at all and is doing so at what was effectively a tiny fraction of their effective capacity.

They couldn't break up a Zentradi garden party.

The problem is that everything here is based on the idea that the Masters where on par with the Zentraedi, when it makes more sense that the Masters had superior tech to the Zentraedi.

Seto wrote:Have we considered that General Emerson is, in fact, suicidal? Or suicidally arrogant, anyway. He was operating under the assumption that Leonard was a competent leader, which does argue strongly that he's recently suffered a blow to the head, or has a bad case of mad cow.

Or is "We're set" the new code for "We're screwed"?

I don't think Emerson is suicidal ("No mission under my command will ever be a suicide mission" or something to that effect to Brown), or arrogant as in a later scene concerning the situation he is pushing for restraint before responding aggressively (Aide: "General why are we waiting you must give the order to attack immediately
", Emerson "No Col. It is imperative that we find out first who they are and if possible what has brought them to our planet we can not be the first one's to fire", Aide responds about the bombing at Moon Base, Emerson replies they don't have proof that Luna didn't provoke the attack). That is further strengthened by "Danger Zone" in not wanting to waste more lives (and repeated at other times).

I don't think Emerson operated under the assumption Leonard was a competent leader. What we know is that Leonard saw Emerson as the ones with "the brains around here" and the guy in charge (follow orders).

As for his reply being code, its possible but unlikely. If this was Leonard making the reply I would give it more weight, but Emerson doesn't strike me as the arrogant type but rather the calculating rational type.

Seto wrote:... followed, in short order, by a demonstration that they were hopelessly outclassed by a few dozen of the enemy at best, all of whom were conspicuously less heavily-armed than the Zentradi.

I don't know if I'd consider them less heavily armed than the Zentraedi. The Bioroids operate on a different doctrine given that their hoversleds greatly improve their mobility and firepower. It also stands to reason that the Masters would want a force capable of engaging the Zentraedi effectively should they revolt.

Seto wrote:Except that their confidence (arrogance?) is shown to be completely and utterly unwarranted in the most tragic and graphic way possible at every turn... like the UEDF council before them, but with less excuses in terms of ignorance.

They are confident they could handle the Zentraedi. The Masters even in their depleted state outclass the Zentraedi. Which would explain why they had such trouble. They planned for the last war.

Seto wrote:That the ASC equipment was rubbish and its leadership incompetent... which happens to be the view the creative staff endorses, and something the RPG hangs a lampshade on by going so far as to suggest that the ASC had this equipment foisted on them because Leonard was butthurt over the UEEF having priority for resources.

I'm not going to dispute the view on their leadership, but their equipment is hardly rubbish. Dialogue establishes they thought they could handle another round with the Zentraedi with the equipment they had. That means the equipment is not rubbish, it only appears that way because they are only shown to engage an enemy that is superior to the Zentraedi.

On screen the VF-1 is a deathtrap compared to any ASC design, the VF-1s saving graces are that it gets more screen time (so more likely to think of it) so people are likely to think of it more than other mecha which only appear for a fraction of the same episodes, and unlike the bulk of the ASC mecha shown attack the enemy we see if they actually hit or not (a lot of the time we see the ASC mecha fire, but no indication if they hit or not). This last bit is why I think contributes to the ASC mecha getting the bum rap they do, the follow through just isn't there like in the other 2 arcs.

Seto wrote:The missiles Komodo fires are more analogous to the far larger, anti-warship missiles fired by starships in the previous war... the kind of thing that popped Dolza's fortress like a balloon

Yes and to pop Dolza's fortress they had to get inside his base ship first. So even Reflex Missiles have limits.

Seto wrote:... if you intend to patrol an area, you want the patrol to actually be able to DO something. The patrol they sent is about as impotent as it gets, which shows when they're promptly defeated and one of 'em ends up captured.

Impotent?
First it depends on what they where patrolling for. The Masters activity might not have been their goal, as the ASC might have thought they could see them coming from a mile away.
Second, their role may be more recon than engagement given the fact they are on Hovercycles.
Third, we see Dana and Bowie using energy rifles, and Dana knocks a Bioroid off its sled (at minimum, it may have dropped it completely like we see the 15th do later in the series)

Seto wrote:If they're using fusion engines and the same fuel as the VF-1, those fighters should have the same (or greater) operational ranges... we're talking flight times measured in days, and sortie ranges measured in hundreds of thousands of kilometers.

There are a few problems with this assumption:
1. Are they actually carrying the same amount of fuel? Yes they are of similar size, but that does not mean they are giving over every available space to fuel. You have yet to prove they are in fact carrying the same amount of fuel (or even proportionally the same amount of fuel since ASC fusion plants get 3.5x more endurance). The Falcon fighter also dedicates some internal volume for the carriage of 8MRM/16SRM weapons bay, and ammunition for its nose gun (the Slypid has capacitor bank for its beam weapons for some reason).

2. It also assumes that they are using the exact same fuel and grade. If you'll notice that the VF-1/8/10 (TMS pg 67, TRM pg 82/88) use SLMH-V per the text (as do the VHTs), but the fighters (pg156/457/159/170) themselves are merely using SLMH. In addition the ASC ntbs use SLMH/B (pg106), the RDF ntbs really don't establish what the fuel is (axillary is hydrogen in a few places, but no mention of it being SLMH or some "mundane" version of hydrogen possible w/He3). Basically it boils down to having several grades of SLMH fuel available, and not all may be created equal (Jet Fuel is similar in having multiple types).

3. Aerodynamics. The aerodynamic qualities are not equal between the various designs in question. So drag can reduce the effective range.

ShadowLogan wrote:As far as the RPG is concerned though, the ASC is mentioned to have a major naval base in the Mediterranean Sea in NG SB.

Yeah, but that falls a little flat in light of both the practicality of the location and the complete and total absence of naval vessels to occupy such an installation.

ShadowLogan wrote:The problem is that everything here is based on the idea that the Masters where on par with the Zentraedi, when it makes more sense that the Masters had superior tech to the Zentraedi.

No, the problem is actually that people were assuming the Masters were on par with the Zentradi, when the evidence of the series suggests that they were nowhere near as capable, militarily or otherwise. All told, they never really demonstrate anything that could count as superior technology, militarily. There's three possible explanations... 1. their supposed technological superiority is something they lost or never actually had thanks to Zor, 2. their energy shortfall is preventing them from actually employing the tech they have against their foes in any meaningful way, and 3. the more advanced tech they have is simply oriented towards non-military pursuits.

The series suggests it's a combination of all three... they were not fighters, or a combat-oriented people, and it shows in their military hardware. They're arguably no more agile than Zentradi mecha, and MUCH less well-armed, while also being considerably more vulnerable thanks to their mecha being based around artificial biological anatomy with the pilot as the brain.

ShadowLogan wrote:I don't think Emerson is suicidal ("No mission under my command will ever be a suicide mission"

Except, of course, for the suicide missions... like the one HE gets sent to lead by Leonard.

ShadowLogan wrote:I don't think Emerson operated under the assumption Leonard was a competent leader. What we know is that Leonard saw Emerson as the ones with "the brains around here" and the guy in charge (follow orders).

Right up to the point where he sends Emerson on a suicide mission because Emerson is challenging his authority... right.

ShadowLogan wrote:I don't know if I'd consider them less heavily armed than the Zentraedi. The Bioroids operate on a different doctrine given that their hoversleds greatly improve their mobility and firepower.

To compensate for the fact that they're not crewed by soldiers and that they're made out of glass...

ShadowLogan wrote:They are confident they could handle the Zentraedi.

A confidence revealed to be entirely unwarrented twice over. They say it's better to be lucky than good, but the ASC is neither.

ShadowLogan wrote:The Masters even in their depleted state outclass the Zentraedi.

Yet there is nothing whatsoever in the show to back this claim up... the Masters, in their depleted state, are pushed to the breaking point by the Earth Forces third string armed with substandard hardware by a narrowminded, xenophobic, canonically-incompetent, micro-managing mentalcase.

ShadowLogan wrote:I'm not going to dispute the view on their leadership, but their equipment is hardly rubbish.

Amusingly, the RPG seems to argue otherwise... and in that, it's in line with Harmony Gold's own stance that the ASC hardware was poorly designed, including acknowledgements of same in canon.

ShadowLogan wrote:Dialogue establishes they thought they could handle another round with the Zentraedi with the equipment they had.

Self-delusion on their part is hardly viable evidence of their capability... especially in light of the fact that we KNOW some of their top men weren't all there in the head (though some would say that extends to the entire organization).

ShadowLogan wrote:That means the equipment is not rubbish, it only appears that way because they are only shown to engage an enemy that is superior to the Zentraedi.

Actually, their equipment is canonically acknowledged to be pretty substandard and have some glaringly evident design flaws.

ShadowLogan wrote:On screen the VF-1 is a deathtrap compared to any ASC design, [...]

The war is more than what's on screen.

You'll also remember that, unlike the ASC hardware, the VF-1s were up against an enemy that could fight and was equipped to wreck hole planets on short notice. The ASC was up against an enemy suffering the grip of a critical energy shortage, who were not career soldiers, and whose equipment was not effective against ANY of their foes...

It also helps that the VF-1 was from a series that was 13 episodes longer.

ShadowLogan wrote:Yes and to pop Dolza's fortress they had to get inside his base ship first. So even Reflex Missiles have limits.

Yes, but they're also shown as being able to kill Zentradi battleships without a direct hit.

ShadowLogan wrote:Impotent?

Impotent.

ShadowLogan wrote:The Masters activity might not have been their goal, as the ASC might have thought they could see them coming from a mile away.

They SHOULD have... a 7km cityship made a landing within eyeshot of the capital and NOBODY NOTICED. The Masters don't have cloaking devices or anything like that.

ShadowLogan wrote:Third, we see Dana and Bowie using energy rifles, and Dana knocks a Bioroid off its sled (at minimum, it may have dropped it completely like we see the 15th do later in the series)

Proof positive that the Masters equipment was pretty pathetic compared to the Zentradi.

ShadowLogan wrote:1. Are they actually carrying the same amount of fuel? Yes they are of similar size, but that does not mean they are giving over every available space to fuel.

Considering they aren't devoting vast amounts of internal space to actuators for transformation-related functions, they should be able to take several times the amount of fuel.

ShadowLogan wrote:The Falcon fighter also dedicates some internal volume for the carriage of 8MRM/16SRM weapons bay, and ammunition for its nose gun (the Slypid has capacitor bank for its beam weapons for some reason).

More hard evidence of backsliding.

Seto wrote:Yeah, but that falls a little flat in light of both the practicality of the location and the complete and total absence of naval vessels to occupy such an installation.

Not completely. Yes there is a lack of information, but it can't be the only major naval base the ASC has. And it does point to a wet navy having in service for the ASC and doing things.

Seto wrote:No, the problem is actually that people were assuming the Masters were on par with the Zentradi, when the evidence of the series suggests that they were nowhere near as capable, militarily or otherwise. All told, they never really demonstrate anything that could count as superior technology, militarily. There's three possible explanations... 1. their supposed technological superiority is something they lost or never actually had thanks to Zor, 2. their energy shortfall is preventing them from actually employing the tech they have against their foes in any meaningful way, and 3. the more advanced tech they have is simply oriented towards non-military pursuits.

The Masters MADE the Zentraedi, that is established in the show. At a bare minimum that means the Masters ARE on par with the Zentraedi. The Cityships also display Shields multiple times, so they do have some technology that the Zentraedi are not shown to use. The Cityships BMI reactor is also more advanced than the Zentraedi hardware, not to mention their "bioandroid system".

Option2, is likely it, with a light coat of #1. There are numerous references that indicate their overall effectiveness was being compromised by the lack of PC.

they were not fighters, or a combat-oriented people, and it shows in their military hardware.

Which doesn't prove anything. A society is defined more than by its military.

Seto wrote:Except, of course, for the suicide missions... like the one HE gets sent to lead by Leonard.

And it isn't confirmed in TRM saga that Leonard was sending Emerson on such a mission, it was widly believed that by officers, but never confirmed by him outright.

Seto wrote:Yet there is nothing whatsoever in the show to back this claim up... the Masters, in their depleted state, are pushed to the breaking point by the Earth Forces third string armed with substandard hardware by a narrowminded, xenophobic, canonically-incompetent, micro-managing mentalcase.

There is plenty in the show to back up that the Masters, even in depleted state, out-class the Zentraedi:
-Numerous instances of utilizing force fields for their ship
-Bio-Magnetic Induction Network, its ability to Fold space to get around locally, not to mention the ship is trying to simultaneously trying to implode and explode
-Biological diodes
-they landed a major vessel on the surface undetected until a chance patrol in the middle of now where (Transport pg252-4, TRM SB, a 500m long ship)
-they can access a subjects memories and display them visually
-they can reprocess prisoners to do their bidding
-life like android parts

Seto wrote:Amusingly, the RPG seems to argue otherwise... and in that, it's in line with Harmony Gold's own stance that the ASC hardware was poorly designed, including acknowledgements of same in canon.

All of which is a self-full-filling viewpoint. HG feels/thinks that the ASC sucks, so the hardware has to suck to even if it disagrees with the series and PB has to do what HG thinks to get it approved.

Seto wrote:The war is more than what's on screen.

You'll also remember that, unlike the ASC hardware, the VF-1s were up against an enemy that could fight and was equipped to wreck hole planets on short notice. The ASC was up against an enemy suffering the grip of a critical energy shortage, who were not career soldiers, and whose equipment was not effective against ANY of their foes...

It also helps that the VF-1 was from a series that was 13 episodes longer.

I know the war is more than what goes on screen. However that is a factor in how people form their opinion. The VF-1 though wasn't fighting captial ships (the method by which the Zentraedi can wreck a planet on short notice) the fast majority of the time, they engaged mecha. In that respect they are no different than the ASC hardware.

Seto wrote:Yes, but they're also shown as being able to kill Zentradi battleships without a direct hit.

There are two problems with this:
A. The City Ship is many times larger than a Zentraedi battlship.
B. The City Ship has force fields that can come into play to protect the ship, and force fields are a known defense against reflex explosions (like with Dolza's ship going up)

Seto wrote:They SHOULD have... a 7km cityship made a landing within eyeshot of the capital and NOBODY NOTICED. The Masters don't have cloaking devices or anything like that.

You do know that the 7km Cityship is not the vessel that Dana and Bowie discovered in "Half-Moon" digging at the site of the SDF-1. What was there was the 500m long transport vessel (200m wide and 298m high). Two Cityships did come to rescue the smaller vessel at the end of the episode.

Seto wrote:Proof positive that the Masters equipment was pretty pathetic compared to the Zentradi.

They used a hand-held weapon to (at minimum) knock a bioroid (11tons) off its feet. That isn't pathetic. Rick Hunter had to fire off several shots from a Zentraedi sized rifle to dispatch one Zentraedi. So we can see their equipment has miniaturized Zentraedi firepower.

Seto wrote:Considering they aren't devoting vast amounts of internal space to actuators for transformation-related functions, they should be able to take several times the amount of fuel.

That they should be able to take several times the fuel I do not dispute. However that is not the issue. The issue is how much fuel they actually ARE CARRYING, NOT HOW MUCH YOU THINK THEY SHOULD BE CARRYING BECAUSE OF THEIR SIZE.

Seto wrote:More hard evidence of backsliding.

Not really. The Falcon's internal missile bay alone is something the VF-1 does have or utilize, neither do the 2 primary TMS era fighters (Dragon and MiM). The Falcon is also carrying an internal projectile weapon (again something the 2 primary TMS era fighters utilize), so there is no backsliding.

ShadowLogan wrote:Not completely. Yes there is a lack of information, but it can't be the only major naval base the ASC has. And it does point to a wet navy having in service for the ASC and doing things. [...]

Could just as easily be a seaport for starships.

ShadowLogan wrote:The Masters MADE the Zentraedi, that is established in the show. At a bare minimum that means the Masters ARE on par with the Zentraedi.

No. All that means is the Masters once possessed the know-how and potential to create the technology used by the Zentradi. It does not automatically mean that their own commonplace technology is on par with what the Zentradi use. After all, the Masters created the Zentradi to fight their wars for them.

They may not even possess the necessary ability to produce the Zentradi's level of military technology anymore, thanks to their energy shortage and the fact that the one person who really understood how everything worked is dead. They're not a violent people by nature, and the people they came to Earth with were not, by in large, soldiers... they were more like a citizen's militia.

ShadowLogan wrote:Option2, is likely it, with a light coat of #1. There are numerous references that indicate their overall effectiveness was being compromised by the lack of PC.

The Masters allude to option 1 in the Masters Saga, option 2 is what they spend most of the series going on about, and option 3 seems evident from the fact that most of the people who came with them are not soldiers.

ShadowLogan wrote:Which doesn't prove anything. A society is defined more than by its military.

Yes, but a military power is defined by its soldiers... and most of the people who came with the Masters were not soldiers, and the ones who did fight were not terribly good at it.

ShadowLogan wrote:There is plenty in the show to back up that the Masters, even in depleted state, out-class the Zentraedi:
-Numerous instances of utilizing force fields for their ship

I'm not sure that actually counts as outclassing the Zentradi, since the Zentradi have shown that they have weapons that can easily knock down forcefields.

ShadowLogan wrote:-Bio-Magnetic Induction Network, its ability to Fold space to get around locally, not to mention the ship is trying to simultaneously trying to implode and explode

An unstable and dangerous drive system that seems no more effective than the gravity control system and more conventional thrusters of the Zentradi ships... just that, unlike those ships, the it has a huge "glowing weak spot" like something out of a rail shooter that can be shot at to conveniently disable the entire ship.

It's more a liability than an advancement, per the series.

ShadowLogan wrote:-Biological diodes

Kind of a one-trick pony, since they're only used by Bioroid pilots... and Bioroids are far outclassed by Zentradi mecha.

ShadowLogan wrote:-they landed a major vessel on the surface undetected until a chance patrol in the middle of now where (Transport pg252-4, TRM SB, a 500m long ship)

Is that really evidence of their technical superiority, or the ASC's bewildering incompetence?

ShadowLogan wrote:-they can access a subjects memories and display them visually

Not something the Zentradi had any need for... and not, honestly, all that tricky.

ShadowLogan wrote:-they can reprocess prisoners to do their bidding

Which they only did because their own soldiers were few and sadly lacking.

ShadowLogan wrote:-life like android parts

*cough* Janice what?

ShadowLogan wrote:The VF-1 though wasn't fighting captial ships (the method by which the Zentraedi can wreck a planet on short notice) the fast majority of the time, they engaged mecha. In that respect they are no different than the ASC hardware.

Yes, but the VF-1s were also fighting enemies who were career soldiers using the best military equipment the galaxy had to offer... the ASC was fighting draftees and brainwashed people piloting lightly armed and insufficiently armored mecha in very small numbers.

ShadowLogan wrote:A. The City Ship is many times larger than a Zentraedi battlship.

This is why "missile spam" is a thing... admittedly, the RPG suggests that the missile platforms that fired upon the Masters mothership couldn't even take long-range missiles.

ShadowLogan wrote:B. The City Ship has force fields that can come into play to protect the ship, and force fields are a known defense against reflex explosions (like with Dolza's ship going up)

Of course, whether their forcefields are as capable as the barrier systems on Zor's personal warship is a rather loaded question...

ShadowLogan wrote:They used a hand-held weapon to (at minimum) knock a bioroid (11tons) off its feet.

Yeah... that's the point. Laser small arms were able to down a BIOROID, and if those are at the same tech level as what's in use in the New Generation, that means that Bioroid got shot down by something barely better than a modern medium infantry rifle.

Compare that to the Zentradi, who were shown to be able to continue fighting after suffering multiple through-and-through hits from a rotary cannon that makes the GAU-8 look like a bb gun.

Your evidence is right, the problem is the conclusion you reached from it depends on ignoring context and applying moon logic.

ShadowLogan wrote:That they should be able to take several times the fuel I do not dispute. However that is not the issue. The issue is how much fuel they actually ARE CARRYING, NOT HOW MUCH YOU THINK THEY SHOULD BE CARRYING BECAUSE OF THEIR SIZE.

If they're not making efficient use of their internal space, that's indicative of bad design and technological backsliding.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:Even if your supposition that 100% of all construction was space-based and Earth hasn't recovered, which I am no way obliged to agree with, [...]

While you certainly have a right to disagree if it suits you, I would wonder what evidence you would cite to support that objection...

I'm the one saying there isn't enough of a big-picture view of the setting to make sweeping declarations. You're the one speaking in the definitive. Its pretty clear who bears the burden of evidence.

But if you're asking why I think it's possible Earth could construct ships on-planet, my answer is because there's no evidence of a lack of industrial capacity, because of the extensive spaceport facilities we see, and because there were were several fleets based on Earth such that repair-refit facilities would be the absolute minimum logically present.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:then my answer is: the planet outfitting, crewing, and operating multiple interstellar fleets.

Crewing, perhaps... and operating is simply a function of crewing, but even that peters out after a little while, and the outfitting is probably sourced to the same factories in space that are outfitting the other fleets.

Petered out? An inability of humans of Earth to field significant space forces doesn't occur until Earth is conquered in a strike that circumvented battles in space by the Invid.

Regardless, that we know they have access to technology capable of automated production of space fleets makes marrying that technology to something so relatively ancient, well known, and second nature to humanity as wet navy ships an easy conclusion.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:But to me, once it is established Earth is brilliant at reverse engineering, and you add that they have working Tirolian automated factories in their hands, [...]

Pretty thoroughly subverted, actually... in that the Robotech version of the story has humanity not understand how a lot of what's in the SDF-1 works, and being unable to independently reproduce critical systems like fold drives until much later. A lot of what was chalked up to the booby trap scrambling the SDF-1's original alien systems in Macross is, instead, ascribed to mistakes in repair made by human engineers rebuilding alien technology. The RTSC art book paints a somewhat less than flattering, but in hindsight somewhat realistic, of humanity struggling to reproduce alien technology even decades after it dropped in their laps.

If we were talking Macross, you would absolutely be correct... because humanity not only repaired the factory satellites (plural) they captured, they built their own scaled-down versions.

Oh man, I wish we had something that said humans have multiple factory satellites and an image with, like, a huge human symbol as part of its design so I could say "It looks like humans are doing pretty well with the Fac Sats they have in Robotech."

Oh wait, Art of Shadow Chronicles states humanity has captured multiple Fac Sats, some of which are well-known, and Space Station Liberty has a huge Expeditionary Forces logo as part of its design.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:There isn't enough of a world shown to draw any sort of accurate conclusion of the global view of the Earth from just the animation. But given it's bounced back enough to become an interstellar power, and it has, I'm disinclined to minimize it's capabilities.

That's... kinda my point, in a way. What we see of inhabited Earth is generally implied to be ALL of what humanity has "reclaimed", or at least the vast majority thereof. It's pretty much pure desert

No such implication is made, at all. That appears an artifact entirely of your personal making. And pure desert? The 15th traipse through the woods in Monument's vicinity plenty, and we see lots of green in South America, an area that the Southern Cross Group is explicitly running around fighting in off-screen during Macross Saga. And of course since we see plenty of green in South America from the time of Macross Saga, the fact that Scott and company certainly don't have any trouble running into verdant areas while running through the various towns and cities on that continent is hardly a surprise. Neither is, of course, that they occasionally run into former Southern Cross assets, including ships right when they needed ships, so a base on the coast doesn't seem like it was a difficult find.

Seto Kaiba wrote:I wouldn't really call it an interstellar power, though, since they can't (and in fact, haven't) occupied a single planet outside their home solar system

An assertion of yours I've yet to see any evidence of besides "not on screen can't exist lalala I can't hear you".

Seto Kaiba wrote:They're less an interstellar power and more an interstellar curbstomp victim... they've yet to actually win any kind of interstellar war, or even really be competitive in one.

Were that true the Masters and Regent would still be slugging it out as major powers instead of being deceased by the end of the tv series.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:That actually makes it consistent with the first two episodes of the Masters Saga, is what it makes it. You know, the ones wherein we are explicitly shown the Masters are advanced enough to arrive in the Solar System, observe Earth, and launch attacks with complete stealth?

It's not really complete if you're detected... and they WERE detected, repeatedly. The catch being the first few times they were detected on approach, they killed the everloving hell out the people who saw them before they could get a message out. Still impressive, but not nearly as much as parking a flying city within eyeshot of the capital and having NOBODY notice.

I begin to doubt you've watched the episodes in question, even if you have "seen" them.

They are never detected until after they've launched an attack, always catching their victims by surprise, if not entirely pants-down helpless. They destroy most of a network of satellites in Earth orbit before Earth fully realizes they're there and can get as much as a momentary, blurry, distorted visual of a mothership. As I said, they have launched their attack with complete stealth. The only time they kill everyone and nobody lives to tell is the mysterious Moon Base attack that is referenced happening off-screen. I'm a bit flabbergasted you would state this happened "the first few times", seeing as how Marie was in the very first skirmish...so for your statement to be true Marie would have to be dead.

As for parking a flying city within eyeshot of the capital...that didn't happen? What are you talking about? The only time a mothership is within "eyeshot" of the city is when the 15th brings one down, and everyone notices that. The episode when they have a ship secretly near the three mounds and Dana and Bowie spot them while on patrol (A) we don't catch a visual of Monument City so "eyeshot" is debatable and (B) it wasn't a mothership, it was what the RPG calls a Quiltra-Draenitzs.

Sgt Anjay wrote:I'm the one saying there isn't enough of a big-picture view of the setting to make sweeping declarations. You're the one speaking in the definitive. Its pretty clear who bears the burden of evidence.

Yes, and I've given it to you... 100% of shipbuilding depicted in Robotech has taken place in space, either simply in synchronous orbits (FtS), in orbital slips (Prelude), or massive stardock complexies (RTSC, Prelude, Sentinels, and implied by AotSC to be the standard approach). There are, at present, no known exceptions to this rule.

Therefore, since we know for an explicitly-stated fact that the United Earth Forces' main R&D facility and shipyard are co-located at a massive space station... it seems like a slam dunk to conclude that the UEF shipbuilding efforts are carried out in space, along with the development and production of their mecha... we're never told or shown otherwise. If all the evidence points to one conclusion... well... then that's a fairly safe conclusion. This could change in future material, but it seems unlikely that it will.

Sgt Anjay wrote:But if you're asking why I think it's possible Earth could construct ships on-planet, my answer is because there's no evidence of a lack of industrial capacity, because of the extensive spaceport facilities we see, and because there were were several fleets based on Earth such that repair-refit facilities would be the absolute minimum logically present.

I'm not sure that the presence of a spaceport and the logistical necessity to be able to repair a ship is the same as proof that they could build ships from scratch on Earth. Certainly, given enough time and a lot of manpower and resources, they probably could build one or two... but the infrastructure you've described is not really suited to large-scale construction efforts like that. I'm sure they could build a new ship from the supplies of spare parts they had sitting around or cannibalized from other, irreparable ships, but it'd be a lot slower than having a dedicated factory complex that doesn't have to contend with logistical obstacles like gravity do the work.

Hence why all shipbuilding yet depicted has been done in space... it's just easier, faster, and the facilities are already there in most cases.

Sgt Anjay wrote:Regardless, that we know they have access to technology capable of automated production of space fleets makes marrying that technology to something so relatively ancient, well known, and second nature to humanity as wet navy ships an easy conclusion.

Whether they can replicate that technology would be the important question... and we know for a canon fact that they have considerable difficulty replicating the more complex technologies they've found... like fold drives, or the various shadow tech systems.

Whether they would even NEED to devote the resources, time, energy, and manpower to replicate that factory technology (assuming they even could), to build naval vessels when the vast majority of Earth's very small population is apparently living quite far from any large bodies of water verges on the silly...

Sgt Anjay wrote:Oh man, I wish we had something that said humans have multiple factory satellites and an image with, like, a huge human symbol as part of its design so I could say "It looks like humans are doing pretty well with the Fac Sats they have in Robotech."

Oh wait, Art of Shadow Chronicles states humanity has captured multiple Fac Sats, some of which are well-known, and Space Station Liberty has a huge Expeditionary Forces logo as part of its design.

Yet we have nothing whatsoever that indicates that humanity can independently recreate the technology in the factory satellites, and an explicit statement in that same source that says humanity was still rather lacking in the ability to reproduce other examples of advanced technology... and that it took them a long time to reach a level where they could recreate that technology properly and stop depending on salvage parts from Zentradi ships.

Painting a big freaking logo on top of a factory satellite doesn't mean they know how it works under the hood. After all, the RPG even insists the ships in the Masters Saga are built around salvaged hardware, not built from scratch.

Sgt Anjay wrote:No such implication is made, at all. That appears an artifact entirely of your personal making.

I'm afraid not, you may want to consider actually checking your sources... areas of woodland and so on are few and far between, and large bodies of water near inhabited areas are pretty rare after the end of the first war.

Sgt Anjay wrote:[...] an area that the Southern Cross Group is explicitly running around fighting in off-screen during Macross Saga.

Only in the RPG.

Sgt Anjay wrote:[...] the fact that Scott and company certainly don't have any trouble running into verdant areas [...]

How much of that is actually the Invid's doing, is debatable... it's a very sharp disconnect between the Earth we see in 2030 and the Earth we see in the 2040s.

Sgt Anjay wrote:An assertion of yours I've yet to see any evidence of besides "not on screen can't exist lalala I can't hear you".

Not on screen, not mentioned, not alluded to, no evidence for the existence of...

Sgt Anjay wrote:Were that true the Masters and Regent would still be slugging it out as major powers instead of being deceased by the end of the tv series.

The Masters were killed by Zor Prime, not the UEDF... and only AFTER they'd massacred the UEDF. The Invid further massacred the UEDF and the Masters surviving forces. The Zentradi massacred everyone, and the Haydonites massacred the UEEF fleet and left them with just one viable warship.

The only person who ever came out ahead against the aliens was a UEEF renegade, and his success was only temporary as the UEEF promptly killed him off, though even that turned out to be the setup for the Haydonites to join the genocidal maniac queue.

Sgt Anjay wrote:I begin to doubt you've watched the episodes in question, even if you have "seen" them.

Their satellites get a picture of the Masters mothership before they're shot down... that's pretty much definitively being seen.

Seto wrote:Could just as easily be a seaport for starships.

Then why call it a Navy Base?

Seto wrote:No. All that means is the Masters once possessed the know-how and potential to create the technology used by the Zentradi. It does not automatically mean that their own commonplace technology is on par with what the Zentradi use. After all, the Masters created the Zentradi to fight their wars for them.

Yes actually it does mean their technology base is on par if not better than the Zentraedi. The Masters by all indications created the Zentraedi to be their police force, not their army (Gloval ep31 "...they decided to develop an intergalactic police force to protect themselves from any hostile lifeforms...").

Seto wrote:nd option 3 seems evident from the fact that most of the people who came with them are not soldiers.

So what if the entire society aren't soldiers. That shouldn't influence how competent their actual soldiers are in comparison to a race of giants engineered to be a "police". force. What impacted the Masters ability was their lack of Protoculture as established in Ep37, and even alluded to later.

Group Leader: Every Bioroid operator Master is briefed and prepared to execute the first phase exactly as you outlined it the only problem is in keeping our operators functional without adequate protoculture
RM (Red): Then double the number of bioroids assigned to this action you may draw additional protoculture from the Proto Furnace only if needed to ensure success

It doesn't get any clearer than that that the Bioroid pilots functionality is derived from protoculture use.

Seto wrote:I'm not sure that actually counts as outclassing the Zentradi, since the Zentradi have shown that they have weapons that can easily knock down forcefields.

Its also a technology the Zentraedi don't use. Those force fields serve to enhance their durability. That the Zentreadi can knock down force fields is irrelevant, it is a technology that they themselves don't use on the ships.

Seto wrote:An unstable and dangerous drive system that seems no more effective than the gravity control system and more conventional thrusters of the Zentradi ships... just that, unlike those ships, the it has a huge "glowing weak spot" like something out of a rail shooter that can be shot at to conveniently disable the entire ship.

Its no more unstable or dangerous a drive system than the gravity control system and conventional thrusters. And a Zentraedi ship will go when a volley of missiles are unleashed inside it no where near their main power system, where to hit the BMI they had to expose the system first to even hit it with a precise shot. Indications are that whatever vulnerability was present had been sealed up or the ASC would have used the same tactic on other Cityships. Clearly that is an advantage over the Zentraedi ships.

Seto wrote:Kind of a one-trick pony, since they're only used by Bioroid pilots... and Bioroids are far outclassed by Zentradi mecha.

Biological diodes aren't one trick ponies. We have no idea how extensive the technology has penetrated into their technology base. And a Bioroid control system is far more advanced than any Zentraedi mecha as it reads impulses directly from the pilot's brain and doesn't need physical controls to be operated, allowing the Bioroid to respond at the speed of thought, not pilot muscle.

Seto wrote:Is that really evidence of their technical superiority, or the ASC's bewildering incompetence?

Tech superiority, but the reality is both since we don't know the specifics of how they achieved it. Radar can be jammed and or spoofed. Visual based tracking systems would depend on operator alertness, and how visible said object is to the camera. The ship in question had a dark coloration which would make optical tracking difficult, even for something that large, especially if conditions favor the ship. Other optical bands can also be spoofed.

Seto wrote:Not something the Zentradi had any need for... and not, honestly, all that tricky.

Direct Combat wise not all that useful, but outside of combat it can be very useful and valuable. Which is the whole problem, the Zentraedi are shown to be very deficient in this area. Had they the technology, they could have plugged in Rick/Lisa/Ben and avoid the whole interrogation flop.

Seto wrote:Which they only did because their own soldiers were few and sadly lacking.

True, but they had the capacity to beef up their own forces with locals, something the Zentraedi could not do as effectively. (And OSM-wise it was used far more often than in RT).

Seto wrote:*cough* Janice what?

JANICE body parts are by no means life like w/o the holographic field.

Seto wrote:Yes, but the VF-1s were also fighting enemies who were career soldiers using the best military equipment the galaxy had to offer... the ASC was fighting draftees and brainwashed people piloting lightly armed and insufficiently armored mecha in very small numbers.

Maybe in the Macross-OSM the Zentraedi had the best military equipment the galaxy had to offer, but that is not the case in RT.

Seto wrote:This is why "missile spam" is a thing... admittedly, the RPG suggests that the missile platforms that fired upon the Masters mothership couldn't even take long-range missiles.

2E suggests there are two types of platforms (MRM and LRM), though that wasn't an issue w/1E as they are all LRM. MRM doesn't make any sense to use to shoot at an object in orbit. So someone wasn't doing their homework here the second time around.

Though regardless missiles can be shot down, and there are a lot of AA emplacements.

Seto wrote:Of course, whether their forcefields are as capable as the barrier systems on Zor's personal warship is a rather loaded question...

I find it hard to believe the Masters forcefields would actually be that outclassed. The Masters had to have safeguards in place should the Zentraedi revolt again (Exeedore alludes to this about the last time the Zentraedi came in contact with micronians).

Seto wrote:Yeah... that's the point. Laser small arms were able to down a BIOROID, and if those are at the same tech level as what's in use in the New Generation, that means that Bioroid got shot down by something barely better than a modern medium infantry rifle.

A Bioroid that is armored, and has a similar mass to a Zentraedi giant (Breeta has a full size mass of 16.75tons, and he is larger than the typical Zentraedi, so likely heavier). That small laser as you put it hit with such force that it caused 11tons to move in the opposite direction it was traveling in. Small Arms has advanced to the point they can package what used to be a giant sized rifle into one sized for a regular human. That is progress.

Seto wrote:If they're not making efficient use of their internal space, that's indicative of bad design and technological backsliding.

Not really. What it shows is that they have left internal space for growth, which is hardly a bad design choice or evidence of a technology backslide but rather forward thinking.

In regards to Robotech guys, let us keep in mind the SDF-1 seems to be the epitome of masters technology.

Yes I know it is originally a "supervision army ship" from Macross but we ARE discussing Robotech not Macross Proper.

That being said the SDF-1 certainly has what seems to be aspects and a tech base beyond even what the Masters have.

Aside from the above, the discussion about Masters tech versus Zentraedi tech versus Human tech is quite irrelevant to whether or not the ASC had a wet navy and what that wet navy might have has it's assets

jaymz wrote:In regards to Robotech guys, let us keep in mind the SDF-1 seems to be the epitome of masters technology.

Yes I know it is originally a "supervision army ship" from Macross but we ARE discussing Robotech not Macross Proper.

That being said the SDF-1 certainly has what seems to be aspects and a tech base beyond even what the Masters have.

Aside from the above, the discussion about Masters tech versus Zentraedi tech versus Human tech is quite irrelevant to whether or not the ASC had a wet navy and what that wet navy might have has it's assets

Agreed!
The rest of it is :sound of a dead horse being beaten:.

Actually, when the Masters are discussing the SDF-1, their statement is that in order to be able to invert the barrier system and destroy the Zentraedi armada, humans would have to know as much about the ship as they do. Which was actually incorrect, since humans started jury-rigging the pin point and full barriers pretty early on. But given that statement and the ability of the Masters to deduce how the SDF-1 is capable of destroying a Zentraedi fleet, I'm not convinced the SDF-1 was advanced beyond regular Masters technology. But it since it contained the Matrix, it certainly didn't have any power issues unlike the Masters force that shows up decades later.

Regardless, it has been millennia since humanity has lacked major navies, hundreds of years since any power has been considered major without a navy. The questions for me are, how large might the UEG Navy have been pre-RoD, and how large might national navies of the UEG member states, not to mention Anti-Unificationists, have been? That would start to give ideas of how large the Prometheus and Daedalus classes could possibly have been at that point. From there what possible quantities of other classes of ships there may have been. Then there's which carriers and other ships from the Global War era might be afloat. To me naval power would have been a large priority; pre-2009, their golden goose is a grounded ship on an island in the world's biggest ocean.

After that, its different speculation: what fleets and shipyards might have survived either by being lucky or by being out to sea, who would these survivors align with, how much automated factory technology was imported to Earth to be combined with our centuries of shipbuilding knowledge...world building, essentially, so a creative writer or gm's dream. And, being away from the focus of the official Robotech story, its a chance to get expansive with little chance of contradicting any given version.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:I'm the one saying there isn't enough of a big-picture view of the setting to make sweeping declarations. You're the one speaking in the definitive. Its pretty clear who bears the burden of evidence.

Yes, and I've given it to you

No you haven't. You want it to be so, so you insist it is so, but it is not definitively so. It is in evidence fac sats would be the clear choice for main shipyards. It is not in evidence Earth is incapable of terrestrial shipbuilding to accompany orbital efforts.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:But if you're asking why I think it's possible Earth could construct ships on-planet, my answer is because there's no evidence of a lack of industrial capacity, because of the extensive spaceport facilities we see, and because there were were several fleets based on Earth such that repair-refit facilities would be the absolute minimum logically present.

I'm not sure that the presence of a spaceport and the logistical necessity to be able to repair a ship is the same as proof that they could build ships from scratch on Earth.

You don't have to think it. I get you don't agree. The possibility, and certainly the tech-base, still exists regardless.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:Regardless, that we know they have access to technology capable of automated production of space fleets makes marrying that technology to something so relatively ancient, well known, and second nature to humanity as wet navy ships an easy conclusion.

Whether they can replicate that technology would be the important question... and we know for a canon fact that they have considerable difficulty replicating the more complex technologies they've found... like fold drives, or the various shadow tech systems.

Explain to me how engines that modify the fabric of reality relate to automated assembly lines, and I'll give this concern more weight. We can't say definitively that Earth has automated factory tech to add to its centuries of shipbuilding know-how, but it can't be ruled out.

Seto Kaiba wrote: Earth's very small population is apparently living quite far from any large bodies of water

Not in evidence.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:Oh man, I wish we had something that said humans have multiple factory satellites and an image with, like, a huge human symbol as part of its design so I could say "It looks like humans are doing pretty well with the Fac Sats they have in Robotech."

Oh wait, Art of Shadow Chronicles states humanity has captured multiple Fac Sats, some of which are well-known, and Space Station Liberty has a huge Expeditionary Forces logo as part of its design.

Yet we have nothing whatsoever that indicates that humanity can independently recreate the technology in the factory satellites, and an explicit statement in that same source that says humanity was still rather lacking in the ability to reproduce other examples of advanced technology

Actually, the fact that they say certain specific technologies were difficult, but make no mention of other technologies, might be said to demonstrate that the unmentioned tech wasn't a problem. After all, if they can't do fold drives, shadow tech, and automated production, why only mention two out of three?

Seto Kaiba wrote:Painting a big freaking logo on top of a factory satellite

Painting? Uh...you might want to actually look at the actual factory satellite in question. The entire structure is in the shape of the logo.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:No such implication is made, at all. That appears an artifact entirely of your personal making.

I'm afraid not, you may want to consider actually checking your sources... areas of woodland and so on are few and far between, and large bodies of water near inhabited areas are pretty rare after the end of the first war.

Heavy forest is evident in South America during Macross Saga. New Generation shows plenty of towns and cities dotted across South America two Robotech wars later, and South America's population centers as a whole are and always have been very coastal. When Scott and crew wanted ships? They find a naval station, no problem. Areas of woodland are significant and not far from Monument City, particularly it seems in the direction of where Macross City used to be, where the three mounds remain during Masters Saga, and where Reflex Point is established in New Generation. These woodlands are prominent in several episodes of Masters Saga, including "Half Moon", "Danger Zone", "Final Nightmare" (where among other things Bowie and Musica steal a hoverbike from a Forest Division outpost), and "The Invid Connection".

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:[...] an area that the Southern Cross Group is explicitly running around fighting in off-screen during Macross Saga.

Only in the RPG.

Wrong. It's mentioned in background dialog in the episode "Season's Greetings". It isn't a coincidence novels, comics, and RPG have all put the Southern Cross there, its from the tv series and was likely told them directly from HG, even if they all did different things with that background detail.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:[...] the fact that Scott and company certainly don't have any trouble running into verdant areas [...]

How much of that is actually the Invid's doing, is debatable... it's a very sharp disconnect between the Earth we see in 2030 and the Earth we see in the 2040s.

We don't get an overall picture of Earth either in 2030 or the 2040s. We see Monument City and its environs during Masters Saga, which includes at least one area of thick woods, and in both Macross Saga and New Generation we see South America remains very green.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:Were that true the Masters and Regent would still be slugging it out as major powers instead of being deceased by the end of the tv series.

The Masters were killed by Zor Prime, not the UEDF

Zor Prime was a slave of the Masters and would have remained so if it wasn't for humanity. Also, Dana was ready and able to capture one or more of the lead triumvirate, and if Zor Prime hadn't gone off half-cocked for vengeance those last scenes would likely have ended much more favorably all around. The fact remains, only Earth's resistance kept the Masters from resurgence to power. And, again, the Earth's forces were key in the defeat of the Regent.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:I begin to doubt you've watched the episodes in question, even if you have "seen" them.

Their satellites get a picture of the Masters mothership before they're shot down... that's pretty much definitively being seen.

That's not actually what happens in the episode.

The mothership is in the process of taking down the satellite network, with most of it already gone before they're noticed, and even once their actions are noticed and Earth is trying to spot them, all they get is a brief, blurry, distorted visual before their sensors are shut down. I repeat, they launched their attack with complete stealth, and even once the attack is detected remain extremely elusive to sensors.

ShadowLogan wrote:Then why call it a Navy Base?

There are a LOT of terminology choices in Robotech that make no sense...

ShadowLogan wrote:Yes actually it does mean their technology base is on par if not better than the Zentraedi. The Masters by all indications created the Zentraedi to be their police force, not their army (Gloval ep31 "...they decided to develop an intergalactic police force to protect themselves from any hostile lifeforms...").

Yeah, and how many other times were they wrong about their assumptions? I'm pretty sure there was a whole war brought about by their false assumptions about the Masters.

It doesn't mean the Masters are on par with the Zentradi, militarily or technologically... just that, at one point, they had the ability to produce that technology.

ShadowLogan wrote:It doesn't get any clearer than that that the Bioroid pilots functionality is derived from protoculture use.

Yeah, but that only proves that they need protoculture to operate... not that their pilots are a trained, experienced military unit (which they weren't).

ShadowLogan wrote:Its no more unstable or dangerous a drive system than the gravity control system and conventional thrusters.

You'd have a hard time proving that, considernig that neither of those systems has a huge, exposed weak spot that can let a single mecha disable the entire ship in one shot.

ShadowLogan wrote:Biological diodes aren't one trick ponies. We have no idea how extensive the technology has penetrated into their technology base.

There is one and only one documented use. Try again.

ShadowLogan wrote:Maybe in the Macross-OSM the Zentraedi had the best military equipment the galaxy had to offer, but that is not the case in RT.

There's no evidence whatsoever to support your argument to the contrary... you've cited irrelevant bits of dialog and nothing else.

Sgt Anjay wrote:Regardless, it has been millennia since humanity has lacked major navies, hundreds of years since any power has been considered major without a navy.

Yes, but as there are no rival powers on Earth anymore after the first war ended, and essentially no need for water-based shipping with almost the entire human race living in one landlocked area, there's simply no need for a navy anymore. All defenses are oriented towards resisting an invasion from space.

Sgt Anjay wrote:The questions for me are, how large might the UEG Navy have been pre-RoD, and how large might national navies of the UEG member states, not to mention Anti-Unificationists, have been?

No indication is given, I'm afraid... the only hint being that they're way ahead of where they ought to be where carrier hull numbers are concerned in 1999. That would suggest that shipbuilding was scaled way up during the global war, though that would also suggest that numerous carriers were lost in battle, the numbers of which being impossible to ascertain.

My guess would be less than the sum of the modern world's navies, due to our not having had a massive world war to contend with.

There's no indication that the Anti-Unification League possessed any ships or even had any national ties, since the RPG is suggesting that their MiM-31s were bought on the black market secondhand, rather than obtained directly from various nations on the sly.

Sgt Anjay wrote:That would start to give ideas of how large the Prometheus and Daedalus classes could possibly have been at that point.

By all indications, they were unique at the time the first war broke out... and after the war, it wouldn't be necessary to build something to massively over-the-top.

Sgt Anjay wrote:To me naval power would have been a large priority; pre-2009, their golden goose is a grounded ship on an island in the world's biggest ocean.

Yet the only attacks shown on the island are from the air and from space... suggesting, at the very least, that the AUL are lateral thinkers.

Sgt Anjay wrote:After that, its different speculation: what fleets and shipyards might have survived either by being lucky or by being out to sea, who would these survivors align with, [...]

There's nobody except the UEG to align with, so the nonexistent survivors whose existence the narrator, Admiral Hayes, and Leonard rule out wouldn't really have a choice.

Sgt Anjay wrote:how much automated factory technology was imported to Earth to be combined with our centuries of shipbuilding knowledge...

None, by any official indications... all of Earth's R&D and heavy military manufacturing was being done by space factories pinched from the Tirolians. These are, after all, a people who had difficulty duplicating the basic starship systems for decades after the first war.

Sgt Anjay wrote:No you haven't. You want it to be so, so you insist it is so, but it is not definitively so.

There is no evidence to support your argument, and your say-so is not sufficient to overturn the actual evidence. When you have actual evidence, I promise I will give it due consideration.

Sgt Anjay wrote:Explain to me how engines that modify the fabric of reality relate to automated assembly lines, and I'll give this concern more weight.

It's indicated, both in canon and in the RPG, that humanity had difficulty replicating many of the basic bits of tech that went into the ships... like gravity control systems, reflex furnaces, and fold systems... which prompted them to continue using salvage parts for decades after the first war. They clearly had problems replicating the advanced technology they'd come into possession of, and we're shown that they were not having much luck repairing the factory satellite they captured early on... since that's a system advanced enough to independently build tech we know the UEG's people can't replicate themselves.

We're talking orders of complexity here.

Sgt Anjay wrote:Not in evidence.

"No contrary evidence", you mean? We don't see any cities near the ocean in the second war, and the official sources tell us there are only a few cities on the entire planet.

Sgt Anjay wrote:Actually, the fact that they say certain specific technologies were difficult, but make no mention of other technologies, might be said to demonstrate that the unmentioned tech wasn't a problem.

They actually indicate that many of the basic technologies behind starship-building were a little beyond the grasp of humanity... the RPG compounds it by including reflex furances in the list as well. If many of the basics are beyond their grasp, by what stretch of the imagination is a system that can automatically produce those systems perfectly every time within their grasp?

Sgt Anjay wrote:The entire structure is in the shape of the logo.

Considering they establish that Liberty station is a captured factory satellite, that would be either them cutting structure off the top, or simply painting over an existing structure.



There seems little point in continuing this... as is typical, the pro-Southern Cross argument is based almost entirely on the poster's say-so rather than evidence.

Pro-Southern Cross? Considering how much of the evidence I brought up is from Macross Saga and New Generation, more of a "not everything in Robotech is garbage" argument. But yes, certainly little common ground, especially since lack of a basic grasp of the events of the episodes seems evident.

Let me say this....

The existence and likelihood pf a wet navy is very much dependent on how big you espouse the population of the planet to be.

By canon it seems the pop is very low thus no real need for it however if you go by the novels then that is a different thing entirely and there would be some need for one for force projection more than anything else in order to avoid pilots being up/in the seat for hours on end to get to a site of conflict without having a physical base there

That being said, tech base is irrelevant to the discussion of it either way.

Seto wrote:It doesn't mean the Masters are on par with the Zentradi, militarily or technologically... just that, at one point, they had the ability to produce that technology.

Yes actually it does mean the Masters are on par/better than the Zentraedi technologically. Militarily to a point, but it would be extremely dumb of the Masters to be unable to take direct action against the Zentraedi should they revolt again in part (as Exedore mentions in "The Messenger") or full.

Seto wrote:Yeah, but that only proves that they need protoculture to operate... not that their pilots are a trained, experienced military unit (which they weren't).

Why wouldn't they train their pilots? And with things like memory transference technology the "experience" and training can go much faster.Experienced military unit, possible but unlikely given memory transference technology.

Seto wrote:You'd have a hard time proving that, considernig that neither of those systems has a huge, exposed weak spot that can let a single mecha disable the entire ship in one shot.

A single mecha could only exploit that weak spot ONCE IT WAS EXPOSED. After the first attempt the ASC made no attempt to duplicate the feat suggesting the weakness was addressed. Meaning it was a one-trick pony if there ever was one.

Gravity Control System though can be overpowered by Gravity Mines (put one mine on a mecha and fly it in range, or preferably a group). And a single mecha can knockout thrusters.

Seto wrote:There is one and only one documented use. Try again.

Documented use, no argument, but it seems highly unlikely that is the only place the technology is found given they have bio-genetically imprinted circuits and things like the Living Protoculture Computer.

Seto wrote:There's no evidence whatsoever to support your argument to the contrary... you've cited irrelevant bits of dialog and nothing else.

Yeah because a single Neutron-S missile is less destructive than "a small nova" (reputed firepower of the entire Grand Fleet). Or technology like Syncro-Cannons (more compact and destructive than reflex cannons) and Shadow Cloak Devices (visual targeting only) are inferior to the Zentreadi equipment. And indications are the Zentraedi where never able to put down the Invid, even with their "superior" technology and military power.

Seto wrote:Yet the only attacks shown on the island are from the air and from space... suggesting, at the very least, that the AUL are lateral thinkers.

It suggests several things. One air assets have to deploy from somewhere, which can be used to push for the inclusion of AUL naval power (carriers by their nature do not engage other ships directly). The UEG may also have an effective anti-submarine net and surface naval ship blockade around the island preventing those assets from getting to close without a huge gamble.

Seto wrote:By all indications, they were unique at the time the first war broke out

By all indications in RT the Dead/Prom. are not the only examples of ships in that class per EP3.

Seto wrote:Yes, but as there are no rival powers on Earth anymore after the first war ended, and essentially no need for water-based shipping with almost the entire human race living in one landlocked area, there's simply no need for a navy anymore. All defenses are oriented towards resisting an invasion from space.

And yet NG runs completely contrary to this notion that humanity was in a single land locked area by 2029. We see sea shore resorts from before the Invasion, and naval assets. So activities on the water ways have returned to some pre-RoD level. Dialogue and other cues clearly make statements about the surviving population of the RoD to be in literal error.

ShadowLogan wrote:Yes actually it does mean the Masters are on par/better than the Zentraedi technologically.

No, it does not. Your argument depends upon several faulty assumptions, including that the Tirolians can still produce that technology without Zor and that the Tirolians would actually have a use for any of it... since you have no evidence to support this, we must consign your argument to the dustbin of failure.

ShadowLogan wrote:Why wouldn't they train their pilots?

Because the recurring theme is that they're not a militaristic society... fighting is what they created the Zentradi to do.

ShadowLogan wrote:And with things like memory transference technology the "experience" and training can go much faster.

Assuming that they actually have any to begin with...

ShadowLogan wrote:A single mecha could only exploit that weak spot ONCE IT WAS EXPOSED.

Actually, make that TWO vulnerabilities... the one that was used to disable the first mothership, and also the one that was exposed when the other mothership attempted to recover the first one.

ShadowLogan wrote:Gravity Control System though can be overpowered by Gravity Mines (put one mine on a mecha and fly it in range, or preferably a group). And a single mecha can knockout thrusters.

Gravity mines require preptime and a home field advantage, and there are no cases of mecha taking out the thrusters of a ship. Please don't cite nonsense hypotheticals in place of evidence.

ShadowLogan wrote:Yeah because a single Neutron-S missile is less destructive than "a small nova" (reputed firepower of the entire Grand Fleet).

But not, in practice, applicable in fleet combat... try again.

ShadowLogan wrote:Or technology like Syncro-Cannons (more compact and destructive than reflex cannons)

More compact, yes... but more destructive is not stipulated and clearly not true when you compare the effects in the animation. Try again.

ShadowLogan wrote:Shadow Cloak Devices (visual targeting only) are inferior to the Zentreadi equipment.

Not established to be effective against any sensors other than conventional human ones, try again. The Regess established that she can detect them just fine.

ShadowLogan wrote:It suggests several things. One air assets have to deploy from somewhere, [...]

This is what airbases in the vicinity of humanity's few cities are for. Try again.

ShadowLogan wrote:The UEG may also have an effective anti-submarine net and surface naval ship blockade around the island preventing those assets from getting to close without a huge gamble.

Or, in the complete absence of the existence of those things, they might not! Try again.

ShadowLogan wrote:By all indications in RT the Dead/Prom. are not the only examples of ships in that class per EP3.

An acknowledged animation error, and not something canon for RT. Try again.

ShadowLogan wrote:And yet NG runs completely contrary to this notion that humanity was in a single land locked area by 2029.

You have no proof that those assets are not left over from the first war... also, two PT boats is not a navy.

Seto wrote:No, it does not. Your argument depends upon several faulty assumptions, including that the Tirolians can still produce that technology without Zor and that the Tirolians would actually have a use for any of it... since you have no evidence to support this, we must consign your argument to the dustbin of failure.

Yes it does. The Tirolian technology in use is superior to the Zentraedi technology they used, so they have little need to duplicate it.

Seto wrote:Because the recurring theme is that they're not a militaristic society... fighting is what they created the Zentradi to do.

No they aren't purely militaristic society, but the Masters do employ designated occupations which means they have to have training in order to properly execute their jobs.

Seto wrote:Assuming that they actually have any to begin with...

I find it very likely that they would. What else would they have based the Zentraedi on, and why couldn't they be able apply it toward their own guards and soliders?

Seto wrote:Actually, make that TWO vulnerabilities... the one that was used to disable the first mothership, and also the one that was exposed when the other mothership attempted to recover the first one.

The second one did not work (Dana's shot did not do any major damage, as the ship was still able to achieve its mission). Both are extremely hard to exploit vulnerabilities and really aren't practical to rely upon as the animation shows.

Seto wrote:But not, in practice, applicable in fleet combat... try again

Very applicable in fleet combat. Detonation at SSL establishes that.

Seto wrote:More compact, yes... but more destructive is not stipulated and clearly not true when you compare the effects in the animation. Try again.

Syncro-cannons come in a variety of sizes. SDF-3 in PttSC did a fire upon the Invid hive and resulted in a Reflex Cannon level destruction.

Seto wrote:Not established to be effective against any sensors other than conventional human ones, try again. The Regess established that she can detect them just fine.

Not buying it, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest Zentraedi technology is immune to Shadow Technology, since it is fundamentally what the humans (and Masters) use. Try again. The Regess ability to detect Shadow Technology is as limited as humans.

Seto wrote:This is what airbases in the vicinity of humanity's few cities are for. Try again.

&

Seto wrote:Or, in the complete absence of the existence of those things, they might not! Try again.

These replies makes no sense in the context my reply was given since they are in reference to the 1999-2009 period, in which we know the UEDF has wet navy assets.

Seto wrote:An acknowledged animation error, and not something canon for RT. Try again

Nothing in the animation or RT dialogue actually alludes to it being an error though. The AE can be found to be employed in several shots w/n the episode, and again in Ep4 when we see a Dead. class ship floating among the wreckage (Dead. herself was frozen in the harbor along w/Prom.), with the frequency demonstrated it is hard to see it as an error and not intentional.

Seto wrote:You have no proof that those assets are not left over from the first war... also, two PT boats is not a navy.

A total of 3 ships are depicted, which helps establish that there was a wet navy still around. Being a Global power, it is unlikely the UEG had only one wet naval base.

The island resort also had an enclosed boat house large enough for all 3 ships to hide in. So that is two sites with large boathouses we see. Rook's comment about the resort they stop off en route ("used to be paradise", "really looking forward to coming here", and she attributes the INVID to the downfall of the place), point to the area being a post 1st War site where people went for recreation. Since that is an island, that means they need ships to get there (sure you can fly, but we saw no airfield). So we have two harbor sites, one purely military by indications and another civilian (so there has to be at least one more civilian harbor to launch boats from), this indicates that water travel has returned to the planet by 2029. While there may not be any nation states to fight, it is likely that piracy and other non-state players exist that could push for the creation of a navy.

ShadowLogan wrote:Yes it does. The Tirolian technology in use is superior to the Zentraedi technology they used, so they have little need to duplicate it.

We have only your word for that, and no evidence whatsoever... your say-so is not proof of anything.

ShadowLogan wrote:No they aren't purely militaristic society, but the Masters do employ designated occupations which means they have to have training in order to properly execute their jobs.

Yet to provide a viable fighting force they have to resort to more drastic measures than simply using the troops they have... eventually sinking so low as to start drugging their own civilians.

ShadowLogan wrote:The second one did not work (Dana's shot did not do any major damage, as the ship was still able to achieve its mission). Both are extremely hard to exploit vulnerabilities and really aren't practical to rely upon as the animation shows.

If you can disable an entire mothership with ONE SHOT, it's a pretty significant weakness... especially if that one shot can come from a fairly light mecha-mounted weapon instead of, say, a starship's cannons.

ShadowLogan wrote:Very applicable in fleet combat. Detonation at SSL establishes that.

No, not applicable in actual fleet combat... only applicable in a trap, which is ironically what they were originally intended to be. Try again.

ShadowLogan wrote:Syncro-cannons come in a variety of sizes. SDF-3 in PttSC did a fire upon the Invid hive and resulted in a Reflex Cannon level destruction.

Yes, synchro cannons come in a variety of sizes... but at no point is it ever stipulated that the synchro cannon technology is on par with reflex cannons in terms of firepower. It's also worth noting that what the SDF-3 fired on the Invid hive with was TWO synchro cannons side-by-side, not one.

ShadowLogan wrote:Not buying it, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest Zentraedi technology is immune to Shadow Technology, since it is fundamentally what the humans (and Masters) use.

Yet we see that humans, the technological slow children of the galaxy, already have a viable workaround for detecting shadow-stealthed craft. Keep trying, eventually you might get somewhere.

ShadowLogan wrote:Nothing in the animation or RT dialogue actually alludes to it being an error though.

It's not acknowledged in any official Robotech source, all of which treat the Daedalus and Prometheus as unique ships. No dice, bro.

Seto wrote:We have only your word for that, and no evidence whatsoever... your say-so is not proof of anything.

It should be common sense that the Masters, who are credited with the creation of the Zentraedi, should have equal or superior technology to the Zentraedi. This should be especially obvious since the Zentraedi are known to have revolted (in part) at least once before (mentioned in "The Messenger").

Seto wrote:Yet to provide a viable fighting force they have to resort to more drastic measures than simply using the troops they have... eventually sinking so low as to start drugging their own civilians.

That is the result of attrition though, and their low supplies of PC. Not that they can not provide a viable fighting force.

Seto wrote:If you can disable an entire mothership with ONE SHOT, it's a pretty significant weakness... especially if that one shot can come from a fairly light mecha-mounted weapon instead of, say, a starship's cannons.

Its still a one-in-a-million exploit that one can not rely upon.

Seto wrote:No, not applicable in actual fleet combat... only applicable in a trap, which is ironically what they were originally intended to be.

Disagree. The NS missile can be fired at the enemy fleet, and it can manuever. So no, it doesn't need to be a trap.

Seto wrote:Yes, synchro cannons come in a variety of sizes... but at no point is it ever stipulated that the synchro cannon technology is on par with reflex cannons in terms of firepower. It's also worth noting that what the SDF-3 fired on the Invid hive with was TWO synchro cannons side-by-side, not one.

I'm aware that it was a double shot, doesn't invalidate the level of destructiveness though. Said weapon is the sucessor of the Reflex Cannon (AotSC, glossary). Given the SDF-3 didn't simply rebuild its Reflex Cannons, but went with Syncro-cannons it should be clear that Syncro is capable of being >= Reflex.

Seto wrote:Yet we see that humans, the technological slow children of the galaxy, already have a viable workaround for detecting shadow-stealthed craft

Yes there is a work around to the technology, but by all indications visual based systems are not the range/targeting sensor of choice for anyone.

Guys? not for nothing but enough of the uh-huh/nuh-uh. You have gone well past point of this being entertaining

ShadowLogan wrote:It should be common sense that the Masters, who are credited with the creation of the Zentraedi, should have equal or superior technology to the Zentraedi.

"Once possessed the capability to produce" doesn't mean "applied for themselves". You keep trying to get around that little point with no success... there is no evidence that the Masters are, in terms of what little military technology they display, on anything even remotely approaching the Zentradi's level.

ShadowLogan wrote:Its still a one-in-a-million exploit that one can not rely upon.

Considering it's implied that all Masters warships possess this vulnerability, the only thing that kept it from being exploited on a large scale was the bewildering idiocy of the ASC's brass.

ShadowLogan wrote:Disagree. The NS missile can be fired at the enemy fleet, and it can manuever. So no, it doesn't need to be a trap.

The one time this was tried (in Prelude), it didn't work. No dice.

ShadowLogan wrote:I'm aware that it was a double shot, doesn't invalidate the level of destructiveness though.

Yes it does, because they needed TWO of the largest synchro cannons ever built to even get into the same ballpark as the reflex cannons seen earlier.

ShadowLogan wrote:Said weapon is the sucessor of the Reflex Cannon (AotSC, glossary).

Yes, but that means very little... technically, the Alpha and Logan are successors to the VF-1, and both have performance that falls significantly short of the bar set by the craft they replaced.

ShadowLogan wrote:Given the SDF-3 didn't simply rebuild its Reflex Cannons, but went with Syncro-cannons it should be clear that Syncro is capable of being >= Reflex.

No, all it logically means is that they went with shadow technology because the Haydonites said to... a decision that came back to bite them in the arse HARD. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest a synchro cannon can surpass a reflex cannon for firepower.

ShadowLogan wrote:Yes there is a work around to the technology, but by all indications visual based systems are not the range/targeting sensor of choice for anyone.

Not for primary, long-range targeting... but the Zentradi do seem to use visual targeting an awful lot on their mecha for short-range combat.

jaymz wrote:Guys? not for nothing but enough of the uh-huh/nuh-uh. You have gone well past point of this being entertaining

It would help if it could be acknowledged that more than one possible interpretation of the few facts with direct evidence and the larger body of circumstantial evidence is viable.

Seto wrote:"Once possessed the capability to produce" doesn't mean "applied for themselves". You keep trying to get around that little point with no success... there is no evidence that the Masters are, in terms of what little military technology they display, on anything even remotely approaching the Zentradi's level.

That makes no sense that the underlying technology of the Zentraedi is not part of the Masters repertoire.

Seto wrote:Considering it's implied that all Masters warships possess this vulnerability, the only thing that kept it from being exploited on a large scale was the bewildering idiocy of the ASC's brass.

Doesn't matter if every ship has the vulnerability, you still need to be able to exploit it effectively. And the series shows that it isn't used again. That can actually mean several things beyond idiocy and fails to consider if the Masters took steps to harden the system.

Seto wrote:The one time this was tried (in Prelude), it didn't work

All they had to do to disable the NS was blow up the command center once set in motion and then they came to a complete stop. The UEEF use of the missiles itself was different at Earth. And who knows how the Haydonites would deploy and utilize them.

Seto wrote:Yes it does, because they needed TWO of the largest synchro cannons ever built to even get into the same ballpark as the reflex cannons seen earlier.

Considering Reflex Cannons depicted have that twin boom design, I don't see how that is any better. And the SDF-4 is technically larger than the SDF-3 refit.

Seto wrote:Yes, but that means very little... technically, the Alpha and Logan are successors to the VF-1, and both have performance that falls significantly short of the bar set by the craft they replaced.

The overall performance of many of the "shortfalls" is dictated by some need by HG to stick to the OSM for such matters, but with Shadow Chronicles they have more freedom to push the Syncro-technology to what ever level they want. The technology is already supposed to allow higher rates of fire.

Seto wrote:No, all it logically means is that they went with shadow technology because the Haydonites said to... a decision that came back to bite them in the arse HARD. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest a synchro cannon can surpass a reflex cannon for firepower.

Regardless though the Haydonites still have to make a case for the Syncro over Reflex in the rebuild. The UEEF doesn't seem to have blindly followed the Haydonites, the UEEF did build in safeguards with the N-S missiles (as shown in TSC when Vince went to arm the things).

Seto wrote:Not for primary, long-range targeting... but the Zentradi do seem to use visual targeting an awful lot on their mecha for short-range combat.

Which applies to everyone really. That will cut down on the Zentraedi (or other) ability to detect an approaching enemy. The Mark1 eyeball is vulnerable to fatigue after all.

In any case we have drifted way off topic.