Infrastructure needed for SMLH

[eliakon]

or you know, it could just be perfectly normal "power corrupts".. you know, like how having super advanced technology has given a bunch of glorified toasters the idea they can dictate what every other race in the universe can and cannot do.

Eh... depends on whether the Haydonites had the same unpleasant history as they did in the old version of the lore, wherein their home planet had already suffered two previous invasions and occupations at the hands of crazy despots with a lust for protoculture. It would certainly make sense for them to fear humanity for the reasons they espouse in Prelude (that humans were setting themselves up to follow in the footsteps of the Robotech Masters) if they'd already suffered at the hands of the Robotech Masters and the Invid Regent.

What's hinted at in RTSC and AotSC is that the Haydonites have seen protoculture as something obscenely dangerous for a VERY long time, apparently having launched a preemptive strike against the Invid's original homeworld because of it.

Just from what we know of their motivations, it seems like a safe bet this isn't just a case of the Haydonites getting carried away with their own power... since, from their remarks in Prelude, they seem to be worried about ending up being invaded and either conquered or wiped out by a second Robotech Empire.

So what part of 'Launching preemptive strikes against peoples homeworlds because you don't like what they might do with something' is not 'corrupt with power'?
It sounds like NONE of the races out there are 'good guys' And that everyone is a bunch of nasty, jealous, power mad despots and psychopaths. I am suddenly liking the Regis and her 'take a third option' more and more.

[mech798]

The problem is that if you have a history of: "Normal race, find's protoculture DECIDES TO CONQUER THE WORLD!" and start taking other illogical decisions, then it's natural to start wondering if there is something *in* the protoculture influencing htem.

Note that this isn't entirely impossible-- mankind certanily isn't drunk with power, yet in the storyline, there's a tremendous shift from "unify with aliens" to "purge the xenos!" even though arguably the 1st robotech war was won by the simple decision to accept Myria decision to defect-- to offer a third path. So if the Haydonites were already victimized, they could be assuming that something IN the protoculture is doing this, in which case it's a certainty that mankind will turn on them-- as has happened several times before.

And note that they have some good evidence of that, since we don't have to presume anything-- the UEEF leadership flat out ordered the use ot weapons that would have, at best, depopulated much of hte earth.

Even if you assume it's just power corrupting instead of the biological equivelent of the One Ring, the Haydonites might be able to make a strong case that killing off humanity is worth it if you get rid of protoculture, because in terms of the numbers of dead, you're not talking that many people-- not after three, largely protoculture fueled genocidal conflicts. Then at least everyone can get back to running stuff with their odl fashioned fusion plants.

But this is really just trying to explain why a power source that by the RAW, isn't that much better than SMLH and is also absolutely irreplacable, is used for everything from Mecha to jeeps.

[Seto Kaiba]

The problem is that if you have a history of: "Normal race, find's protoculture DECIDES TO CONQUER THE WORLD!" and start taking other illogical decisions, then it's natural to start wondering if there is something *in* the protoculture influencing htem.

Which would not be the strangest thing in the history of rejected Robotech concepts... after all, Robotech 3000 and the Robotech novelizations attempted to establish that protoculture had a will of its own. Robotech 3000 even took that to its logical extreme with its core plot being that protoculture finally got sick of being abused and decided the witty way to deal with it would be to subvert all protoculture-powered mecha and kill all the meatbags (because genocide is ALWAYS the answer in Robotech).

Crazier avenues have been explored in the past.

Note that this isn't entirely impossible-- mankind certanily isn't drunk with power, yet in the storyline, there's a tremendous shift from "unify with aliens" to "purge the xenos!" even though arguably the 1st robotech war was won by the simple decision to accept Myria decision to defect-- to offer a third path.

Whether or not they're drunk with power is debatable... the Haydonite leadership and the Invid Regess, who are not exactly best friends, both seem to be of the opinion that humanity is a collection of irredeemable psychopaths destined to become the next tyrannical Robotech Empire. How exactly they dealt with that varied... the Haydonites deciding to kill 'em all, and the Regess decided to go somewhere the humans could never reach.

But this is really just trying to explain why a power source that by the RAW, isn't that much better than SMLH and is also absolutely irreplacable, is used for everything from Mecha to jeeps.

Well, it doesn't really explain that either... it just explains why everyone decides to murder the guy with the magic flowers.

Looking at the differences in performance and fuel capacity, you wouldn't think protoculture is more than maybe ten times the energy density, which is grounds for serious head-scratching since that would leave fusion-powered fold firmly in what we might call plausible territory. Fusion power also has one significant advantage over protoculture in that you don't need to be lugging around a separate propellant supply... waste plasma from the reactor IS propellant.

[ShadowLogan]

In the rebooted continuity, protoculture's only stated connection to fold drives is as their fuel.

Which is how they work w/in previous continuities basically. The question is how necessary is the material for a working fold drive. The PC may serve other purposes other than raw energy in the system that one can't get with substitutes (singular or multiple).

We also don't know how related the Fold Drive is to the Bio-Magnetic Induction network (which is said to fold space, making it a form of Fold Drive), but we do know from dialogue that PC is required for the BMI to work (at least in regard to its method of accomplishing the spacial folding).

... than conventional nuclear technology. SLMH is hardly conventional. Fusion may not qualify for that either. Exact words could make or break this, but thanks to the vagueness of the unqualified remark...

Conventional nuclear technology I thought would be a given since the remark is something brought up before. That SLMH itself is hardly conventional I would agree with given that it is an exotic form, but fusion method in use in RT may still be "conventional" for a a variety of reasons. It really boils down to what TPTB have in mind for what qualifies as "conventional nuclear technology".

[Seto Kaiba]

Which is how they work w/in previous continuities basically. The question is how necessary is the material for a working fold drive. The PC may serve other purposes other than raw energy in the system that one can't get with substitutes (singular or multiple).

Since the Haydonites have hyperspace fold drives just like humanity does, and everything we're told indicates they almost certainly do not use protoculture... it would appear to only be necessary as the energy source.

We also don't know how related the Fold Drive is to the Bio-Magnetic Induction network (which is said to fold space, making it a form of Fold Drive), but we do know from dialogue that PC is required for the BMI to work (at least in regard to its method of accomplishing the spacial folding).

The obvious explanation there being that it's powered by protoculture, the same as everything else the Masters have.

It really boils down to what TPTB have in mind for what qualifies as "conventional nuclear technology".

Exactly... and since fusion is apparently something that only became practical with the introduction of robotechnology, that probably would not qualify as "conventional". Of course, what matters isn't just that it's superior in energy density to what they're vaguely calling conventional nuclear sources... but also by how much.

[eliakon]

Which is how they work w/in previous continuities basically. The question is how necessary is the material for a working fold drive. The PC may serve other purposes other than raw energy in the system that one can't get with substitutes (singular or multiple).

Since the Haydonites have hyperspace fold drives just like humanity does, and everything we're told indicates they almost certainly do not use protoculture... it would appear to only be necessary as the energy source.

Except that these are wild assumptions
We know absolutely NOTHING about their power supply other than they think that other people using protoculture are weak addicts to be culled.
We also know nothing about the implementation of their fold system, so again we have no way of knowing if its just like humanities drive or if it operates on different principles.

We also don't know how related the Fold Drive is to the Bio-Magnetic Induction network (which is said to fold space, making it a form of Fold Drive), but we do know from dialogue that PC is required for the BMI to work (at least in regard to its method of accomplishing the spacial folding).

The obvious explanation there being that it's powered by protoculture, the same as everything else the Masters have.

Perhaps, or perhaps its actually needed in the operation (which would explain why the masters can't fold with out sufficient protoculture, its not that they don't have the power, they don't have some sort of component/catalyst)...with out more information we can't say one way or another and are left to speculate.

It really boils down to what TPTB have in mind for what qualifies as "conventional nuclear technology".

Exactly... and since fusion is apparently something that only became practical with the introduction of robotechnology, that probably would not qualify as "conventional". Of course, what matters isn't just that it's superior in energy density to what they're vaguely calling conventional nuclear sources... but also by how much.

And the other question is if they are trying to use Fusion as a from of Robotechnology, and calling fission plants 'conventional. (I don't know, but its possible *shrugs* and Fission plants need lots of additional drive space which lowers their 'energy density' even if the fuel is energy dense, the system as a whole isn't.)

[ShadowLogan]

Since the Haydonites have hyperspace fold drives just like humanity does, and everything we're told indicates they almost certainly do not use protoculture... it would appear to only be necessary as the energy source.

How does the Haydonite HSF Drive method compare to known PC based approach in the finer details (performance, method of achieving)? They may have HSF Drive in terminology, but in actual practice they might be vastly different compared to PC system. Just consider what is consider rocket propulsion and the variety of methods to achieve it (you have solid vs liquid chemical reaction engines, various electrical heating methods, direct and indicrect nuclear fission heating, etc) and we would still consider them all rockets so it is possible that the Haydonite Fold and "Terran" Fold systems are similar in classification, but mechanically have little in common beyond end result.

Exactly... and since fusion is apparently something that only became practical with the introduction of robotechnology, that probably would not qualify as "conventional". Of course, what matters isn't just that it's superior in energy density to what they're vaguely calling conventional nuclear sources... but also by how much.

I don't agree here with regard to Fusion's practicality. Fusion's practicality really isn't dependent on robotechnology though by any indication. Robotechnology per AotSC definition "and the underlying Protoculture-based systems to power them." That would seem to rule out direct influence of RTnology on fusion's development, I wouldn't dispute secondary influences in technology that really aren't classified as RTnology examples. Basically all the SDF-1 did was allow some earth based technologies to leap frog ahead several (or more) generations without being Robotech themselves (doesn't mean RTnology didn't help due to association, but it doesn't appear to be the direct cause).

I agree it would be nice to know how superior the energy density is supposed to be. But HG really doesn't like to get into details.

[Seto Kaiba]

How does the Haydonite HSF Drive method compare to known PC based approach in the finer details (performance, method of achieving)? They may have HSF Drive in terminology, but in actual practice they might be vastly different compared to PC system.

There's absolutely no evidence to support the contention that there is more than one type of hyperspace fold drive, though.

I think the best comparison here would be to Star Trek's warp technology... which the Robotech "hyperspace fold drive" is practically identical to in operation. You can power it in a bunch of different ways (matter-antimatter, an artificially created quantum singularity, and fusion power plants for low level fields), but the mechanics of its operation are the same across all the different implementations.

Fusion's practicality really isn't dependent on robotechnology though by any indication. Robotechnology per AotSC definition "and the underlying Protoculture-based systems to power them."

The problem with that old copypasta's definition is that subsequent material (the so-called "fusion retcon"), established that you can absolutely have robotechnology without protoculture. The VF-1 doesn't have protoculture power systems in canon or the RPG, but it's absolutely robotechnology. The same goes for the other Macross Saga human mecha, and through the RPG, the Masters Saga mecha as well.

I agree it would be nice to know how superior the energy density is supposed to be. But HG really doesn't like to get into details.

I think it's more like they don't have the requisite knowledge to get into the details. Hell, when the Macross Saga source book dropped, Tommy had NO IDEA what the properties of metallic hydrogen were until I summarized them for him in the thread about the identification of the VF-1 as being fusion-powered... and even then he seemed kind of bewildered.

[glitterboy2098]

your statement that robotech fold drive is the same as trek's warp drive has nothing to support it though. it is clear in dialog that fold drive uses a method related in some way to hyperspace.

[Seto Kaiba]

your statement that robotech fold drive is the same as trek's warp drive has nothing to support it though. it is clear in dialog that fold drive uses a method related in some way to hyperspace.

Except, of course, for the animation, the diagram of the drive's effect IN THE ANIMATION, and the official explanation of the fold drive in AotSC. Y'know... all the actual EVIDENCE.

There is no disputing that we see, clearly, explicitly, and emphatically, that folding ships don't leave realspace in Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles. They even copied the star-lines visual effect from Star Trek. The only difference here is that Star Trek uses a "subspace bubble" called a warp field, and Robotech replaces the "subspace" with "hyperspace" in the terminology.

[eliakon]

your statement that robotech fold drive is the same as trek's warp drive has nothing to support it though. it is clear in dialog that fold drive uses a method related in some way to hyperspace.

Except, of course, for the animation, the diagram of the drive's effect IN THE ANIMATION, and the official explanation of the fold drive in AotSC. Y'know... all the actual EVIDENCE.

There is no disputing that we see, clearly, explicitly, and emphatically, that folding ships don't leave realspace in Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles. They even copied the star-lines visual effect from Star Trek. The only difference here is that Star Trek uses a "subspace bubble" called a warp field, and Robotech replaces the "subspace" with "hyperspace" in the terminology.

Can you provide the time stamp of the diagram of the drive's effects in the animation? And if you would be good enough to quote the official explanation of the fold drive from the AotSC book, for those that don't have it? (not a paraphrase, but the exact words that say that its a warp style drive that doesn't leave realspace)

[ShadowLogan]

There's absolutely no evidence to support the contention that there is more than one type of hyperspace fold drive, though.

The reverse is also true though since the only FTL method identified is PC-based HSF in the 85ep, and TSC is lacking in details about the Haydonite system.

The problem with that old copypasta's definition is that subsequent material (the so-called "fusion retcon"), established that you can absolutely have robotechnology without protoculture. The VF-1 doesn't have protoculture power systems in canon or the RPG, but it's absolutely robotechnology. The same goes for the other Macross Saga human mecha, and through the RPG, the Masters Saga mecha as well.

FTS graphic novel/comic series has the VF-1 using a Reflex Furnace in conjunction w/fusion. The RF appears to function as an APU to start the fusion engines up (which actually makes sense).

W/re to the RPG (and even the show): There is no reason that the VF-1 (and other mecha) at the sub-system level can't have PC involved, the show establishes there are PC-chips inserted into circuit boards (which would make them "Robotech"). We don't know where they ended up, but we know PC-chip circuit boards exist. Said mecha are also still vulnerable to PC detection as identified in the Main RPG, even though later their main power source is fusion (details at the sub-system level are lacking, including the "starter" for the fusion system so it is possible for all statements to be true form certain POV).

I think it's more like they don't have the requisite knowledge to get into the details. Hell, when the Macross Saga source book dropped, Tommy had NO IDEA what the properties of metallic hydrogen were until I summarized them for him in the thread about the identification of the VF-1 as being fusion-powered... and even then he seemed kind of bewildered.

That they don't have requisite knowledge to get into the details is evident in a lot of ways. It may also come down to wanting to avoid anything hard and fast, and an aversion to numbers. Still it shouldn't be that hard for them to come up with a figure for PC density over "conventional nuclear", even if "conventional nuclear" isn't defined.

There are a few examples of PC vs Other energy sources on the same item in the 2E RPG with the most appropriate one being:
-Windowmaker IMU has 8cells for 336hrs of continuous use (1/2 in constant heavy combat) for PC, SLMH on the VHT-2 baseline was 10days (240hrs) for SLMH with no loss in performance (slightly heavier though). That yields up 336:240 or ratio of 1.4:1. This setup may not have been the ideal conversion either given the nature of IMUs (and the Ares IMU shows an even worse ratio is possible), but it does establish an idea of just how much more energy PC might contain at minimum than SLMH. The main sticking point here is more that we don't have the SLMH and PC in the same units of measure (mass/weight or volume) which might be skewering the actual the value since we have no idea how much 10days worth of SLMH actually is for the baseline VHT-2. The PC canisters are also powering that BFG and one set of ion cannon array where the SLMH baseline only had only two ion cannon arrays to contend with so the PC system may actually be working harder than the SLMH to boot adding additional skewering given the BFG it has is much more demanding in terms of performance (and it says it saps so much power speed performance degrades 20% while on), however the VHT-1 doesn't have the speed/power issue with its version of that cannon, but it only gets 70% the endurance so the VHT-1 (output is said to be the same compared to the VHT-2, and they both spun off the same program so it is possible they are using the same engine which is why I bring the VHT-1 up).

[Seto Kaiba]

The reverse is also true though since the only FTL method identified is PC-based HSF in the 85ep, and TSC is lacking in details about the Haydonite system.

But with every indication that the Haydonites do not, and never have, used protoculture... that they explicitly do possess a hyperspace fold drive in their ships is more than sufficient cause to assert the existence of non-protoculture-powered fold technology in Robotech.

FTS graphic novel/comic series has the VF-1 using a Reflex Furnace in conjunction w/fusion. The RF appears to function as an APU to start the fusion engines up (which actually makes sense).

We run into a problem there in that, while the RPG does assert that it's possible to use protoculture to power a fusion engine, both the official stats and the RPG stats do not indicate the presence of any protoculture power systems on the production model VF-1. (It could be argued that the "reflex microreactor" mention in the comics is either an error or some form of experimental engine based on Zentradi tech that was rejected for use in the final version. Of course, we know the real answer is that the Macross-ization of Robotech marches ever onwards as Harmony Gold tries to make the franchise marketable.)

W/re to the RPG (and even the show): There is no reason that the VF-1 (and other mecha) at the sub-system level can't have PC involved, the show establishes there are PC-chips inserted into circuit boards (which would make them "Robotech").

Er... with respect to the contents of the RPG, the rules don't support the notion that protoculture-based circuitry generates protoculture power (in fact, the sole explicit mention of protoculture-based circuitry is not identified as being detectable by Invid protoculture sensors, which the rules indicate only detect protoculture power generation. We do, of course, know the bar moved when Harmony Gold decided the first two generations ran on fusion AFTER the core book was made, so there's an inconsistency in the sensor rules right there.)

-Windowmaker IMU has 8cells for 336hrs of continuous use (1/2 in constant heavy combat) for PC, SLMH on the VHT-2 baseline was 10days (240hrs) for SLMH with no loss in performance (slightly heavier though). That yields up 336:240 or ratio of 1.4:1.

That's runtime... a completely useless metric if we're trying to ascertain the energy density of the fuel, because we're now looking at two different mecha which have different energy demands, and while we can hazard a guess at the amount of protoculture in cells based on their physical dimensions, we know nothing of the size of the fuel tanks on any mecha other than the VF-1... and that only comes to use from OSM sources. We don't know the amount of energy either of them are generating either, so we can't work backwards from that either.

We can't make a determination with any accuracy there, frustrating as it is. We're missing almost every useful piece of information that could be used to estimate it... and even that depends on the wholly unfounded assumption that we can measure the output of a protoculture power system using the same metrics as a fusion one. The old, now non-canon definition of how protoculture worked basically made the mecha powered by life-force, not electricity.

[ShadowLogan]

But with every indication that the Haydonites do not, and never have, used protoculture... that they explicitly do possess a hyperspace fold drive in their ships is more than sufficient cause to assert the existence of non-protoculture-powered fold technology in Robotech.

There is in fact no indication of what the Haydonites use though, or their relationship to the Invid (how they came into contact, how they became concerned w/PC-addicts, etc). There are far to many unknowns in this manner at this time to say anything for certain. Right now it could really go either way. Though why else would the Haydonites have PC-cloaking technology if they didn't infact use it since its other known cloaking aspects are basically useless against other known Invid Sensors.

We run into a problem there in that, while the RPG does assert that it's possible to use protoculture to power a fusion engine, both the official stats and the RPG stats do not indicate the presence of any protoculture power systems on the production model VF-1. (It could be argued that the "reflex microreactor" mention in the comics is either an error or some form of experimental engine based on Zentradi tech that was rejected for use in the final version. Of course, we know the real answer is that the Macross-ization of Robotech marches ever onwards as Harmony Gold tries to make the franchise marketable.)

Given the lack of detail these sources get into though it is entirely possible that at the sub-system level is where we end up seeing PC used though since at this point Earth would have limited supplies of the stuff, so would look for applications that have the longest life really. And the series does establish the Monster with a Reflex Furnace, contrary to the RPG's notion it ran on Fusion power (there isn't any internal dialogue conflict, so any conflict with another source is forced).

That's runtime... a completely useless metric if we're trying to ascertain the energy density of the fuel, because we're now looking at two different mecha which have different energy demands, and while we can hazard a guess at the amount of protoculture in cells based on their physical dimensions, we know nothing of the size of the fuel tanks on any mecha other than the VF-1... and that only comes to use from OSM sources. We don't know the amount of energy either of them are generating either, so we can't work backwards from that either.

I agree it isn't the best situation and there are things that could be better. However the Widowmaker IS a modified VHT-2 (much less so than the Ares/AGAC), so the comparison is more balanced in terms of SLMH vs PC than trying to use different mecha (there are non-fusion hydrogen examples we could point to). Both VHT types though have identical mechanical performance (speed, etc), and would require similar energy requirements (Widowmaker has more due to its BFG actually, VHT-2 entry actually give some idea of the output of the engine though), so comparing runtime in a constant state would allow for some estimate to be made for a low ball estimate given certain knowns that we've both highlighted. At least until some better comparison (or even actual answers) are forthcoming.

[Seto Kaiba]

There is in fact no indication of what the Haydonites use though, or their relationship to the Invid (how they came into contact, how they became concerned w/PC-addicts, etc).

No indication in reliable sources except that it is something other than protoculture... and we do know one vital detail of their relationship to the Invid. The Haydonites are the ones who invaded and destroyed the Invid's original homeworld, before the invention of protoculture power systems and robotechnology. That means they almost certainly already had fold technology before the Tirolians invented the method to turn the flowers of life into an energy source (an innovation that happened after the Invid abandoned their original homeworld for Optera).

Right now it could really go either way. Though why else would the Haydonites have PC-cloaking technology if they didn't infact use it since its other known cloaking aspects are basically useless against other known Invid Sensors.

Putting aside what's said in the RPG, the shadow device in canon is presented as a broad spectrum cloaking device which blocks most forms of energy emitted by, or reflected from, the vehicle carrying it. It's not protoculture-cloaking technology, as such. That it masks protoculture energy emissions may even be incidental, since it seems to have more practical uses like insulating ships and objects from intense gravitational fields.

(One has to wonder if shadow fields, which play such a role in the technology they've loaned to humanity, are also at work within the synchro cannon... potentially making it and/or disruptor waves similar to super dimension energy weapons from Macross, which also rely on a dimensional shift effect.)

Given the lack of detail these sources get into though it is entirely possible that at the sub-system level is where we end up seeing PC used though since at this point Earth would have limited supplies of the stuff, so would look for applications that have the longest life really.

With no corroborative evidence, it's impossible to say... and the repeated contradictions between sources are not helping.

And the series does establish the Monster with a Reflex Furnace, contrary to the RPG's notion it ran on Fusion power (there isn't any internal dialogue conflict, so any conflict with another source is forced).

Assuming, of course, that the guy who says it is talking about the Monster he's standing in and not the Zentradi mecha that are running out of fuel nearby. Welcome to the unpleasant vagaries of bad writing, like how mere moments earlier Khyron is announcing that his wholly traditional rotary cannon is "out of power" (though it does run on a battery, it's unlikely the power cell ran out before the bullets did).

I agree it isn't the best situation and there are things that could be better. However the Widowmaker IS a modified VHT-2 (much less so than the Ares/AGAC), so the comparison is more balanced in terms of SLMH vs PC than trying to use different mecha (there are non-fusion hydrogen examples we could point to).

But it's an IMU, and non-canon, so any data pulled from it is an arse-pull at best and completely unreliable... of course, all the operation times in the RPG are inaccurate and unofficial, so that just makes it worse. Even if we had two units exactly the same, except one had a protoculture cell system and the other a fusion reactor, we wouldn't be able to arrive any any kind of determination because we don't know the volume of the fusion model's tank.

If we had a P-cell VF-1, we could maybe get somewhere... since that thing's tank capacity IS a known quantity at 1,410L.

[ShadowLogan]

No indication in reliable sources except that it is something other than protoculture... and we do know one vital detail of their relationship to the Invid. The Haydonites are the ones who invaded and destroyed the Invid's original homeworld, before the invention of protoculture power systems and robotechnology. That means they almost certainly already had fold technology before the Tirolians invented the method to turn the flowers of life into an energy source (an innovation that happened after the Invid abandoned their original homeworld for Optera).

No there is nothing that rules out that they don't use PC. I don't agree with the assessment of the original Invid Homeworld, if the Invid hadn't developed their form of PC or RTnology, then the Haydonites really wouldn't have had reason to attack them. We know the Haydonites destroyed the Invid Homeworld, but we don't know where they came from (they could have been co-species on the same planet, or even w/n their own Solar System).

Putting aside what's said in the RPG, the shadow device in canon is presented as a broad spectrum cloaking device which blocks most forms of energy emitted by, or reflected from, the vehicle carrying it. It's not protoculture-cloaking technology, as such. That it masks protoculture energy emissions may even be incidental, since it seems to have more practical uses like insulating ships and objects from intense gravitational fields.

That the system has picked up new cloaking abilities I don't dispute. What is in question is how effective the system is against the Invid if you don't use PC to mask its energy signature, and you are still vulnerable to optical based sensors that the Invid seem to use.

With no corroborative evidence, it's impossible to say... and the repeated contradictions between sources are not helping.

Not necessarily. Sub-System level of detail is omitted allowing it to straighten out the contradictions making each a POV thing.

Assuming, of course, that the guy who says it is talking about the Monster he's standing in and not the Zentradi mecha that are running out of fuel nearby. Welcome to the unpleasant vagaries of bad writing, like how mere moments earlier Khyron is announcing that his wholly traditional rotary cannon is "out of power" (though it does run on a battery, it's unlikely the power cell ran out before the bullets did).

FoA not BH episode.

But it's an IMU, and non-canon, so any data pulled from it is an arse-pull at best and completely unreliable... of course, all the operation times in the RPG are inaccurate and unofficial, so that just makes it worse. Even if we had two units exactly the same, except one had a protoculture cell system and the other a fusion reactor, we wouldn't be able to arrive any any kind of determination because we don't know the volume of the fusion model's tank.

It may only apply to the RPG-verse, but at least its something. And the IMU nature alone, even if it was canon, means it could be a hack job that might not be the most efficient setup (just look at the Ares IMU, PC use actually goes faster than SLMH). I do agree the fusion tank size is an issue, but another potential issue is how efficient the fusion setup is since later examples might be more fuel efficient requiring smaller tanks. That is why I say this is basically low balling it as there are enough issues that an ideal one-size-fits-all value isn't possible to derive with the available information.

If we had a P-cell VF-1, we could maybe get somewhere... since that thing's tank capacity IS a known quantity at 1,410L.

If TPTB had simply gone with the PC powered version everyone assumed prior to their declaration of its fusion we might not have an issue here.

[Seto Kaiba]

No there is nothing that rules out that they don't use PC.

Except, of course, their complete and total paranoid fear-driven desire to kill anyone who uses protoculture as a danger to the galaxy... and that, in Harmony Gold leaked outline for the RTSC sequels, they were trying to destroy the last source of protoculture in the galaxy.

I don't agree with the assessment of the original Invid Homeworld, if the Invid hadn't developed their form of PC or RTnology, then the Haydonites really wouldn't have had reason to attack them.

Here's the problem with that idea... the official definition for Robotechnology identifies it as a Tirolian invention, something that was first developed by Zor, who is described as the first Robotech Master, inventer of Robotechnology, and father of protoculture. If robotechnology and protoculture were invented by Zor, neither could have existed at the point when Haydonites destroyed the first Invid home world.

That the system has picked up new cloaking abilities I don't dispute. What is in question is how effective the system is against the Invid if you don't use PC to mask its energy signature, and you are still vulnerable to optical based sensors that the Invid seem to use.

You're assuming, without evidence, that the system was developed to fight the Invid. We don't know the circumstances of its creation.

Not necessarily. Sub-System level of detail is omitted allowing it to straighten out the contradictions making each a POV thing.

If it ain't ever mentioned, it ain't present.

It may only apply to the RPG-verse, but at least its something.

It's "something", but it's a fundamentally misleading something WRT energy density because it does not provide any useful information to even estimate the differential.

If TPTB had simply gone with the PC powered version everyone assumed prior to their declaration of its fusion we might not have an issue here.

This is true.

[guardiandashi]

some of the haydonite issues are the type of things you run into when people make changes (and retcons) of the "universe" without fully considering the established story/lore.

now as I understand the "old lore" a big part of the haydonite issues come from the actions of this "being, named Haydon" Haydon was a number of things including:
too smart for his own good.
a tinkerer, and meddler.
a scientist of the typically "mad Scientist" bent where he does things without fully considering (or careing) about the consequences to others.

in that plot, the FOL evolved originally on earth, however Haydon somehow "knew" that the humans and other races that formed ... would form on Earth would never do anything with the FOL. So he went and took all the FOL off earth, and moved them to other planets including Optera. because said FOL is really picky and ... sensitive to changes in its environment, it tends to rapidly mutate when introduced to other ecosystems Haydon may have been able to get around this but no one else is as gifted.
Much Much later along comes Zor who saw something "interesting" about the FOL as used by the Invid. he took samples of it from Optera, and seduced the Regiss and got the secrets of basic protoculture tech, the then developed a number of technologies that relied on this new power source he developed. The other masters after he provided them the tech, in an act of lunacy/.... went and took ALL the FOL from Optera, and then attempted to sterilize the planet in addition to keep anyone else from gaining access to "their advantage" the problem was they rapidly found out just how touchy and tempermental the FLO is. as it mutated on all the planets they attempted to seed it on and became effectively useless for them.

Because of the attempted extinction of the Invid, by the masters they got really ticked.
they went from a peaceful contemplative (drugged out of their minds happy) people to warmongers bent on REVENGE!!!

a number of other events happen but eventually Zor creates his battle fortress, and sends it to earth.....

[Seto Kaiba]

some of the haydonite issues are the type of things you run into when people make changes (and retcons) of the "universe" without fully considering the established story/lore.

Some... most are simply the result of Robotech being exactly what Robotech is notorious for being: sorely lacking in internal consistency. None have anything to do with what you've quoted here, I'm afraid. The most significant issues we have to deal with came about as a result of trying to artificially extend a story that had already reached a logical conclusion twenty odd years previously and failed to spawn sequels three times... and then trying to make it more tolerable to western audiences by trying to imitate Macross.

That last one was the real game-breaker (literally), since TPTB at Harmony Gold didn't "decide" to sit down and clarify that the mecha of the first two generations didn't use protoculture until after they'd rebooted the continuity with "From the Stars", which identified the VF-1's engine as a "reflex microreactor", and then did RTSC and the first book of the RTSC RPG. The decision that the mecha of the first two generations ran on fusion was made when the Macross Saga source book was the current WIP, so it came as a big shock to everyone, screwed the Invid protoculture sensor rules in the core book that list Macross Saga mecha as examples of protoculture-powered gear, and raised the uncomfortable question of why the show's highest-performance mecha doesn't use the allegedly-superior power source that is protoculture.

now as I understand the "old lore" a big part of the haydonite issues come from the actions of this "being, named Haydon" Haydon was a number of things including:

None of which really matter, since the material in the novels and the old comics was never part of the official Robotech lore to begin with... and was of such questionable quality that Harmony Gold disowned the lot. RTSC's related material was the first time an official source had explored any of this backstory, and it pretty thoroughly distanced itself from the mess of nonsense in the licensee-produced material.

[eliakon]

No there is nothing that rules out that they don't use PC.

Except, of course, their complete and total paranoid fear-driven desire to kill anyone who uses protoculture as a danger to the galaxy... and that, in Harmony Gold leaked outline for the RTSC sequels, they were trying to destroy the last source of protoculture in the galaxy.

Except that those 'leaks' are just suppositions and rumor until such time as they are made official canon. Which means that as interesting as they are.....they are not an official basis for anything at this time. SO right NOW we are still in the "we don't know"

I don't agree with the assessment of the original Invid Homeworld, if the Invid hadn't developed their form of PC or RTnology, then the Haydonites really wouldn't have had reason to attack them.

Here's the problem with that idea... the official definition for Robotechnology identifies it as a Tirolian invention, something that was first developed by Zor, who is described as the first Robotech Master, inventer of Robotechnology, and father of protoculture. If robotechnology and protoculture were invented by Zor, neither could have existed at the point when Haydonites destroyed the first Invid home world.

You have a copy of that definition handy? Because the only one I can find is that its the technology that they mastered.....sort of like how nuclear physics requires you to learn nuclear physics....not go train under some guy named nuclear. I.e. Do you have proof that the technology is named after them and not the other way around?

That the system has picked up new cloaking abilities I don't dispute. What is in question is how effective the system is against the Invid if you don't use PC to mask its energy signature, and you are still vulnerable to optical based sensors that the Invid seem to use.

You're assuming, without evidence, that the system was developed to fight the Invid. We don't know the circumstances of its creation.

I thought the system development stuff was in the prelude comics?

Not necessarily. Sub-System level of detail is omitted allowing it to straighten out the contradictions making each a POV thing.

If it ain't ever mentioned, it ain't present.

If it isn't mentioned it just isn't mentioned. 'It ain't present' is an interesting point of view to take.....but its not an official one (Unless you can provide a citation backing it up) which means that unspecified sub-systems certainly can exist

It may only apply to the RPG-verse, but at least its something.

It's "something", but it's a fundamentally misleading something WRT energy density because it does not provide any useful information to even estimate the differential.

Its not misleading, its technobabble. I know, I know its shocking to see techno-babble in science fiction, but there you have it.

If TPTB had simply gone with the PC powered version everyone assumed prior to their declaration of its fusion we might not have an issue here.

This is true.

No argument there.

[ShadowLogan]

Except, of course, their complete and total paranoid fear-driven desire to kill anyone who uses protoculture as a danger to the galaxy... and that, in Harmony Gold leaked outline for the RTSC sequels, they were trying to destroy the last source of protoculture in the galaxy

That doesn't mean they themselves can't use PC.

I haven't seen the leaked outline of the TSC sequels (1st one was bad enough, do I really want to subject myself to the more of the same), but that doesn't mean they are set in stone since it could be viewed as a (insert level of) draft at this point.

Here's the problem with that idea... the official definition for Robotechnology identifies it as a Tirolian invention, something that was first developed by Zor, who is described as the first Robotech Master, inventer of Robotechnology, and father of protoculture. If robotechnology and protoculture were invented by Zor, neither could have existed at the point when Haydonites destroyed the first Invid home world.

Not exactly, the definition in AotSC calls it a development not invention. That means both "inventions" predate the Tirolian involvement, but it was the Tirolians who developed them.

You're assuming, without evidence, that the system was developed to fight the Invid. We don't know the circumstances of its creation.

Agreed, but the Shadow System has no real value against the Invid unless you are using Protoculture as their known non-PC sensors do not seem to be covered by the Shadow System.

If it ain't ever mentioned, it ain't present.

You know how silly that sounds. There are some things that don't need to be mentioned to be present. We know they have a combat computer for example in the mecha (RPG description), which means it has to have sub-components like Processors, capacitors, RAM, some type of cooling, I/O ports, etc.

It's "something", but it's a fundamentally misleading something WRT energy density because it does not provide any useful information to even estimate the differential.

I have to disagree here. We can see that the two VHT-2 types have similar load requirements with similar performance w/the only major difference being PC or SLMH powered. This is also why I'm saying it should be considered a low ball estimate, estimates do some with a margin of error.

I thought the system development stuff was in the prelude comics?

The UEEF/Edwards development stuff was in the Prelude comics, but Prelude also reveals the technology is old and really a rediscovery per Vedit. Seto and I are talking about the development in the past before the UEEF/Edwards.

[Seto Kaiba]

That doesn't mean they themselves can't use PC.

That's just being needlessly obtuse... the plot wouldn't make any sense if they used protoculture, nor would their stated goal of annihilating anyone who uses protoculture.

Not exactly, the definition in AotSC calls it a development not invention. That means both "inventions" predate the Tirolian involvement, but it was the Tirolians who developed them.

Incorrect, as the definition explicitly states that Zor was the one who first developed robotechnology... no faction other than the Tirolians and Humans is ever identified as even USING robotechnology. Zor's biographical information in the Zor Prime bio refers to robotechnology and protoculture as Zor's inventions, and specifically credits him with being the first one to develop robotechnology and protoculture.

Agreed, but the Shadow System has no real value against the Invid unless you are using Protoculture as their known non-PC sensors do not seem to be covered by the Shadow System.

... and what makes you assume that it was intended for use against the Invid when the Haydonites developed it a long time ago? They describe the technology as being quite old.

You know how silly that sounds. There are some things that don't need to be mentioned to be present.

Common-sense things, yes... but the existence of a protoculture power system is something the RPG has specific rules about, and something Harmony Gold has refuted the presence of on the first two generations. If it's not there, then it's not there.

I have to disagree here. We can see that the two VHT-2 types have similar load requirements with similar performance w/the only major difference being PC or SLMH powered.

But we have no idea what the actual amount of fuel the SLMH one is carrying, or the efficiency of either engine... so there's NO WAY to make any kind of evidence-based estimate or determination of the respective energy densities. It's got so little common ground that it's less apples-and-oranges and more apples-and-orangutans.

The UEEF/Edwards development stuff was in the Prelude comics, but Prelude also reveals the technology is old and really a rediscovery per Vedit. Seto and I are talking about the development in the past before the UEEF/Edwards.

Depending on how you interpret Edwards' remarks near the end, when he first witnesses UEEF-equipped shadow fighters... and concludes that Veidt has betrayed them. That suggests that it being a "rediscovered" technology is a lie Veidt told to the stupendously gullible UEEF brass to cover his own metallic arse (does he even have an arse?) after having helped the rogue UEEF group under Edwards by giving them shadow technology. The UEEF acquired Edwards' notes on the shadow field system (and presumably synchro cannon) from his headquarters on Tirol, and nicked the warheads for the neutron-s missiles from the orbital defenses he'd set up around Optera after he escaped there.

[eliakon]

That doesn't mean they themselves can't use PC.

That's just being needlessly obtuse... the plot wouldn't make any sense if they used protoculture, nor would their stated goal of annihilating anyone who uses protoculture.

Errrr that's fine for your personal view....but there is nothing to back it up. As has been repeatedly shown there is nothing that refutes the idea that its just that they want to be the only ones that use it. There is no need to insult people who disagree with you by calling them obtuse simply because they do not accept your (unsupported) views.

Not exactly, the definition in AotSC calls it a development not invention. That means both "inventions" predate the Tirolian involvement, but it was the Tirolians who developed them.

Incorrect, as the definition explicitly states that Zor was the one who first developed robotechnology... no faction other than the Tirolians and Humans is ever identified as even USING robotechnology. Zor's biographical information in the Zor Prime bio refers to robotechnology and protoculture as Zor's inventions, and specifically credits him with being the first one to develop robotechnology and protoculture.

1) Can someone provide the exact wording of the citation so that we can see what is actually being said here? Since its impossible for both statements to be right
2) Its a good thing that no one else uses rockets right? After all humans developed them.....(the point I am making is could Zor be the first one to develop Robotechnology, in the Masters Empire.)
3) What is the Zor Prime Bio? (is this also in AotSC or on the RT.Com site?)

Agreed, but the Shadow System has no real value against the Invid unless you are using Protoculture as their known non-PC sensors do not seem to be covered by the Shadow System.

... and what makes you assume that it was intended for use against the Invid when the Haydonites developed it a long time ago? They describe the technology as being quite old.

Where is the age of the technology discussed? (I was under the impression that it was a new development, but I could be wrong)

You know how silly that sounds. There are some things that don't need to be mentioned to be present.

Common-sense things, yes... but the existence of a protoculture power system is something the RPG has specific rules about, and something Harmony Gold has refuted the presence of on the first two generations. If it's not there, then it's not there.

Cool, you have a citation for where HG refuted the RPG? Specific line item statement? Because right now when I go look on the HG list the Current RPG books are listed as being in the same supporting canon class as the AotSC book.....

I have to disagree here. We can see that the two VHT-2 types have similar load requirements with similar performance w/the only major difference being PC or SLMH powered.

But we have no idea what the actual amount of fuel the SLMH one is carrying, or the efficiency of either engine... so there's NO WAY to make any kind of evidence-based estimate or determination of the respective energy densities. It's got so little common ground that it's less apples-and-oranges and more apples-and-orangutans.

The UEEF/Edwards development stuff was in the Prelude comics, but Prelude also reveals the technology is old and really a rediscovery per Vedit. Seto and I are talking about the development in the past before the UEEF/Edwards.

Depending on how you interpret Edwards' remarks near the end, when he first witnesses UEEF-equipped shadow fighters... and concludes that Veidt has betrayed them. That suggests that it being a "rediscovered" technology is a lie Veidt told to the stupendously gullible UEEF brass to cover his own metallic arse (does he even have an arse?) after having helped the rogue UEEF group under Edwards by giving them shadow technology. The UEEF acquired Edwards' notes on the shadow field system (and presumably synchro cannon) from his headquarters on Tirol, and nicked the warheads for the neutron-s missiles from the orbital defenses he'd set up around Optera after he escaped there.

Which again raises the question. Is there an explicit statement to the effect that the tech is old?

[ShadowLogan]

That's just being needlessly obtuse... the plot wouldn't make any sense if they used protoculture, nor would their stated goal of annihilating anyone who uses protoculture.

Not really obtuse. And the Plot can make sense. Remember they call the PC-users addicts, so they might think these people are abusing/using PC in an unhealthy manner and can't be saved (or this is the only way to "save" them). They may only think of themselves as non-addicts.

ncorrect, as the definition explicitly states that Zor was the one who first developed robotechnology... no faction other than the Tirolians and Humans is ever identified as even USING robotechnology. Zor's biographical information in the Zor Prime bio refers to robotechnology and protoculture as Zor's inventions, and specifically credits him with being the first one to develop robotechnology and protoculture.

No it is correct. The Definition of RTnology in the AotSC states it was developed not invented. We could go back and forth for ages, so basically we have to agree that the issue is highly muddled by contradictory statements put out by HG.

Robotechnology:An advanced alien technology that was first developed by a Robotech Masters named Zor that incorportated articulated mecha, powerful energy weapons, and the underlying Protoculture-based systems to power them. It was later reverse-engineered and adapted by the humans for use in other innovations such as transformable Veritech mecha. Zor's own people, the Tirolians, also used Robotechnology and Protoculture for cloning, life extension, mind control, and a host of other bio-engineered applications.

... and what makes you assume that it was intended for use against the Invid when the Haydonites developed it a long time ago? They describe the technology as being quite old.

I know they ascribe to being quite old (and lost). Shadow Technology offers no known benefit when fighting the Invid if you don't use PC.

Common-sense things, yes... but the existence of a protoculture power system is something the RPG has specific rules about, and something Harmony Gold has refuted the presence of on the first two generations. If it's not there, then it's not there.

No the RPG hasn't ruled it out specifically. They do state in the Main book that RDF/ASC mecha can be detected by PC sensors. All HG really has done is refuted the presence as a main power source (and ignoring other bits in canon in the process), not in any secondary role (FTS comic/gn, or even the show's PC-chips going into circuit boards).

But we have no idea what the actual amount of fuel the SLMH one is carrying, or the efficiency of either engine... so there's NO WAY to make any kind of evidence-based estimate or determination of the respective energy densities. It's got so little common ground that it's less apples-and-oranges and more apples-and-orangutans.

I agree that the result is limited since some useful info is lacking, but it still can provide a low ball estimate since we have nothing better to work with. We could assume the SLMH vs PC quantity is the same (or nearly enough). As long as all parties understand this is an estimate with defined assumptions, it should be usable to some extent as long as those assumptions and short comings are noted.

That is one issue I have with the whole lets use SLMH fuel in the RPG, there is no actual metric provided in the RPG for how much SLMH is required for any given user (same goes for simpler hydrogen systems). So if your a GM and provide them a tanker-trailer of SLMH (the one in TMS SB), how many VTs (and which type) can it refuel if it is full.

epending on how you interpret Edwards' remarks near the end, when he first witnesses UEEF-equipped shadow fighters... and concludes that Veidt has betrayed them...

In a sense Veidt isn't lying to the UEEF though if the technology was "lost" from general knowledge, but something the Haydonites still knew about.

[eliakon]

That's just being needlessly obtuse... the plot wouldn't make any sense if they used protoculture, nor would their stated goal of annihilating anyone who uses protoculture.

Not really obtuse. And the Plot can make sense. Remember they call the PC-users addicts, so they might think these people are abusing/using PC in an unhealthy manner and can't be saved (or this is the only way to "save" them). They may only think of themselves as non-addicts.

ncorrect, as the definition explicitly states that Zor was the one who first developed robotechnology... no faction other than the Tirolians and Humans is ever identified as even USING robotechnology. Zor's biographical information in the Zor Prime bio refers to robotechnology and protoculture as Zor's inventions, and specifically credits him with being the first one to develop robotechnology and protoculture.

No it is correct. The Definition of RTnology in the AotSC states it was developed not invented. We could go back and forth for ages, so basically we have to agree that the issue is highly muddled by contradictory statements put out by HG.

Robotechnology:An advanced alien technology that was first developed by a Robotech Masters named Zor that incorportated articulated mecha, powerful energy weapons, and the underlying Protoculture-based systems to power them. It was later reverse-engineered and adapted by the humans for use in other innovations such as transformable Veritech mecha. Zor's own people, the Tirolians, also used Robotechnology and Protoculture for cloning, life extension, mind control, and a host of other bio-engineered applications.

So its possible also that they are just talking about the 'version' of the technology in use yes?
Sort of how while Humanity may have invented the Windows Operating System....that does not mean that all forms of Computers every where are Human inventions....

[Seto Kaiba]

Not really obtuse. And the Plot can make sense. Remember they call the PC-users addicts, so they might think these people are abusing/using PC in an unhealthy manner and can't be saved (or this is the only way to "save" them). They may only think of themselves as non-addicts.

Again, that's simply not consistent with their expressed desire to annihilate protoculture-using races, or their efforts to wipe out protoculture itself... why would they be going to such great pains to annihilate the last source of the stuff in the universe if they themselves depend on it?

No it is correct. The Definition of RTnology in the AotSC states it was developed not invented.

Synonyms... a mystery to you? They do refer to these as being Zor's inventions in his bio. The creation of new technology is called development... that's why the groups in corporations tasked with scientific study and practical application of those new principles they discover "Research and Development". The process of creating new technologies is called "development".

It still establishes that Zor and the Tirolians were the first ones to develop (create) robotechnology... and, fittingly enough, none of the powers in RT except humanity and the Tirolians are ever identified as using robotechnology.

I know they ascribe to being quite old (and lost). Shadow Technology offers no known benefit when fighting the Invid if you don't use PC.

You're making a few assumptions here... the first being that the Haydonites developed the shadow field to fight against the Invid, and the second being that the Invid have always had protoculture sensors. Considering how small a portion of what shadow fields are used to insulate against is actually protoculture emissions, and that the technological applications of the Invid Flowers of Life were discovered by Zor, the "father of protoculture" (per his bio), that the shadow field was developed with a mind towards shielding against Invid protoculture sensors is particularly nonsensical.

Why would the Haydonites need to invent shielding to hide a power source they don't use, and which was developed LONG after their tiff with the Invid started? It's more likely that the Haydonites developed shadow fields for other purposes, or as protection against older Invid sensor technologies, and that its effectiveness against protoculture is something they either added to the technology to get humanity to adopt it or a happy accident as the result of its broad-spectrum blocking of EM emissions.

No the RPG hasn't ruled it out specifically. They do state in the Main book that RDF/ASC mecha can be detected by PC sensors.

The main book also states that only protoculture-powered devices are detectable with those sensors, something corroborated in the New Generation book, which offers explicit confirmation that vehicles not powered by protoculture are not detectable... and the actual stats for those mecha indicate they do not use protoculture.

We bloody well know that's the result of Harmony Gold deciding this stuff ran on fusion after the core book was printed... still, that's down to the GM how to resolve that contradiction. Either follow the letter of the rules that only a protoculture-powered device or vehicle can be detected (meaning the early mecha are invisible) or apply the specific list and ignore the actual text of the rule and the specific examples in later books.

All HG really has done is refuted the presence as a main power source (and ignoring other bits in canon in the process), not in any secondary role (FTS comic/gn, or even the show's PC-chips going into circuit boards).

But the RPG indicates that protoculture-based circuitry is NOT detectable... only protoculture power systems. In fact, even mutants who have protoculture-based mutations aren't detectable, per the RPG, unless they chug the contents of an entire vehicle-grade protoculture cell.

I agree that the result is limited since some useful info is lacking, but it still can provide a low ball estimate since we have nothing better to work with.

It's not a lowball estimate, it's a wild guess based on a borderline-irrelevant figure... we can't compare the respective fuel efficiency and energy capacity if we don't know how much fuel they're carrying or how efficiently they're using that fuel...

In a sense Veidt isn't lying to the UEEF though if the technology was "lost" from general knowledge, but something the Haydonites still knew about.

But if he provided it to Edwards, as Edwards' remarks indicate, then he IS lying because he's presenting it as something Edwards rediscovered independently... not as something the Haydonites cheerfully handed him.

[Jefffar]

I think this one has deteriorated enough.

Take five guys and remember its only a cartoon/game.