How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

[Nekira Sudacne]

But yeah. "Oh well we'll send the dragons to teleport into the thing" Every village there has a dragon that can try that?
"We'll send tons of elementals" You've warlocks of that level in every village?

Could there be 'a' dragon or 'a' warlock or two in 'a' village? Sure. Is there going to be those things in every village? Unlikely.

For air elementals themselves. 100 times range? That's not a typo? (Doesn't know. Seldom plays mages and usually only looks up mage stuff to make sure people aren't cheating.)

Well yes, most villages would just be screwed if someone in a 100 ton war machine showed up. as it should be. you asked what COULD be done, and of course that comes down to a "Well, hypothetically they might have an air warlork or ley line walker that's at a high level, or maybe a dragon" because that's the only thing that WOULD help. in most cases, the answer is "They are helpless, just like 90% of places in rifts earth would be vs. a deaths head, unless they have an exceptionally powerful champion around to protect them".

also, the 100x normal range is right there in Dark conversions under elementals.

Yeah. It sounded weird so I looked it up. I found the catch that people like to overlook.

"Send an elemental!" and the 100X normal range of a lvl 1 warlock.

Powerful. Powerful indeed. If you overlook what it takes to get one.

1) You have to be the right kind of warlock. In this case an air warlock
2) You have to be 9th level or better to even attempt it. Now, while some GMs play fast and loose with the exp, if you look through the books, the ground shaking heros, the generals, the leaders of pretty much everything. Are usually between lvl 7 and lvl 10 or so. So in universe, 9+lvl warlocks are going to be pretty few and far between.
3) You can only try once per day and it's emotionally and physically taxing.
4) Summoning the greater elemental (The one with the 100X range etc) Gives you half the percentile chance.
5) That summing chance is pretty low. 5% per lvl. Now assuming you've found your totally BA lvl 9 warlock that's a 22.5% chance of actually being able to do it.

So, the 'defense' here, is built around 1) having access too a pretty ground shaking level Warlock of the proper flavor. (lvl 9 or greater) having him in your village when the attack comes, have him start the summons Which still takes 2 to 12minutes. Drains him or her, and has a 1 in 5 chance of succeeding.

Now, if I remember my magy limitations, they have to cast which takes the hand motions and speaking the spell. This can be interrupted by anything causing the mage to move around or dodge, or get punched in the head what not.

That's going to be pretty hard to hold off for 8 to 48 melees straight as your village is getting bombarded from the air with megadamage blasts.

Now assuming the persons in the APC don't go 'Hey!! That guy in white seems to be casting a spell. Light him up" He might not get shot at first, or second, or third, or tenth or 20th attack, but those guys are going to be blasting every melee action for 8 melees minimum, if not the full 48 melees. That's alot of blasts raining down, to never hit close enough to disrupt the spell to even try for that 1 in 5 chance of success.

So at the very very best, when your village is attacked. You need that super warlock, of the right flavor on call, and need 2 to 12 minutes of him casting the summoning spell, to get your 1 in 5 chance of getting the major elemental to come, to try and defend... .what ever is left of your village after the APC has been blowing the crap out of it for 2 to 12 minutes. Assuming that some how the warlock didn't get interrupted with the village being vaporized around him and was never hit randomly by the blasts or debris etc. and never had to start his spell over due to interruption.

If it works.... nice defense (Of what's left) But that's a pretty big string of logistics needed.

The warlock can get a +20% to +30% boost by performing the summoning at a nexus or other "Mystical place" (dosn't have to be a nexus or ley line but can have some other mystic significance", however the time involved means that the most effective elemental defence is to actually do rotating summons on a constant basis. the rules say that Elementals generally don't mind serving their "Little brothers" for a few weeks at a time but eventually get antsy or even violent if they are held for too long, but you can summon 1-2 elementals a month and just trade them out every few weeks without being in any danger of rebellion from any one elemental.

As far as casting limitations, Warlocks actually get a break because they aren't proper mages at all, they are a priest variant that are simply granted power by the elemental lord of the element in question (sometimes two), and they only have to chant the name of their lord (the power word for the element in question) for the casting time in order to invoke the spell. no gestures or concentration required, alibet chanting "Cherubot-kyn"(Power word: Air) for 3-6 seconds is a bit of a tongue twister

You aren't likely to have a villiage built on a nexus. Layline storms and rifts and stuff make that, in general a bad place to place a settlement.

Sure, but lots of villages are built on "Places of mystic significance" in the New Empire. it dosn't have to be a nexus or ley line.

As for 'Oh have um on a rotating basis'. I read a bit of it. you're basically summoning a minor god, it's not a trivial thing. yes they'll stay around for a few days with out trying to kill the warlock, but they get mad. It also goes on at length that the elementals don't think the way people do and they'd see nothing wrong with killing everyone in the village themselves if they were in the way or something. It's part of their limitations, their truly alien mindset. This came up in the SoT. Something to the effect that they used minor elementals to patrol the northern approach but because of their orders, they never reported the CS forces up there that came through the hivelands, because they weren't told specifically what to look out for.

If you summon that minor god, you better have something for it to do, as if you don't it might decide to see how much blood comes out of different humans when you pull off their arms and legs, or being an air elemental might just summon up a hurricane or tornado for spits and giggles.

Having one just hanging around indefinably seems to be more dangerous to the village than not. And that warlock has to sleep sometime.

Nothing says that the warlock has to babysit the elemental. in fact most of the uses given as examples (E.G. Guarding the passageway) are explicitly things that don't need the warlock to hang around for them to do. and there are rules for how fast. they will want to go back after a day or two. however the odds of them actually killing the warlock are only 12% (accumulative) per week. Now if you do this on an indefinate basis they'll fail, but

A: you could just rotate them every week so none of them get angry enough to fight
B: They always warn you before they will strike you, so just say "you can go now" and you'll never be hurt.

Elementals are alien, but they also don't hold grudges. granted, to do this in COMPLETE safety you would need a number of warlocks doing it every few days.

You still have the other limitations. The level requirement, the flavor of warlock requirement, the time requirement, and the percentile chance. At 22% per try one per day, you could just simply fail when that APC came flying towards the village. I don't buy the 'keeping a major elemental on tap' type plan at all.

As long as you don't mind having to talk the elemental down now and then there are no serious problems with it. they HAVE to warn you before they get violent, so worst case is you don't suffer personally at all.

Mind this would be a plan only for selfish or evil alignments, but it is an effective one.

I don't know about warlock casting. can you point me to a page where it says they're unlike other mages? Cuz "oh they don't have to gesture or do anything but say one word" seems weird. I read the casting proceedure for normal mages the other day. Where's the stuff specificly for warlocks, that say that spell interruption is different for them?

Bottom left of page 59 conversion book one (revised and origional) says

"A warlock derives his magic powers and spells directly from his elemental lord/force in much the same way as a witch and some priests from their supernatural allegiance. The elemental being that represents the warlock's chosen (elemental) life sign gives him the power and grants him the elemental magic. The spell casting ability is not learned (like wizardry), but endowed by the elemental deity. The spell is cast by invoking the elemental power word(s) in a simple chant. Otherwise,warlock magic in Rifts works like the ley line walker's magic, Each spell requires a certain amount of P.P.E. and once that energy is temporarily expended, no more spells can be cast."

which makes it clear that it is different from ley line magic in that it only takes a simple chant of one word. right in the OCC

[Pepsi Jedi]

People should also remember these storms and ... lol. Hurricanes they're quick to whip out and try and swat down a flying target with, will do much more damage to their own turf. Hurricanes are nothing to sneeze at. These sort of tactics are like setting yourself on fire with gasoline and trying to hug your enemy to hurt him. If it gets bad there's nothing to stop the APC from just flying off for a bit and coming back later. 300PPE is nothing to sneeze at to try one of these defensive tactics. Then you tear up your own land trying to swat them out of the air. It's a bit self defeating. If you look at the effects the spell does alot worse to those on the ground, than in the air. So while you're 'trying' to effect the Death bringer. You really ARE affecting everything on the ground around you and making it 50 times harder on them. lol. Depending on which version of Palladium magic you're using, you might have just negated the ability for other mages to even 'try' and cast. Remember, mages have to do their hand motions and speak their spells. It expressly says they cannot do that while doing other physical actions. Running, or dodging, parrying in combat. Or... struggeling against windstorms or hurricanes. It's not like you can call winds big enough to swat at a MDC flying transport but your mage buddies can just stand there unaffected by those same winds and cast.

Dragons can surely get up in the air but they don't fly at 400 mph. They don't have 8,000 feet range on their weapon. Dragon comes after one of these things and the pilot just keeps them 7,000 feet infront of the dragon at all times and shoot him with impunity. If the dragon teleports close, he's suddenly not close when the apc moves at 400mph. I don't think their teleport is accurte enough to 'land' on something going 400 mph, but I'll admit I haven't looked at the rules in a bit. I can't think that'd be remotely easy.

The spell states that they stop all air travel has a 20 mile range and undefined AOE. The damage from the storm would be allot less than you raising the village if you read the spell.

Shure dragons can not fly at 400 miles per how but they can teleport. A collision (body block tackle) with an adult dragon is going to bring a screeching halt to speeding travel and the dragon is likely to be alive and can hang on as it bites and claws its way in.

I do not think your fling transport is a free pass to just level a whole empire by itself.

The summon storm doesn't say they stop all air travel. I've not looked up the hurricane one, but if you cast the hurricane on your own village, the APC just.. flys off and waits as the hurricane tears your village up, and when it's done can fly back in. Right? If you cast hurricane again... You've got a second hurricane tearing up your village and you fly away till it's over?

Teleporting infront of a flying apc going 400mph is going to hurt the dragon. If the dragon holds on. You shoot it. Right?

Ok now you are contradicting the book of magic.

Page 149 Rifts book of magic.
"The storm is accompanied by damaging winds gusting to 35 and 45 MPH. The rain and wind makes air travel impossible."

It is right in the book plane as day, right below the % roll for problems with ground vehicles that you roll every 2 miles traveled.
As to the range they can predict the time and direction of your attack with both magic and psionic so you can stop cast the storm ahead of the air vehicle 20 miles away from the village where you have a bunch of Hiding Ninjas waiting for it to land.

Having two spells below 8th level (probably can pull it off with 2 7th level spells but I know the 8th level armor spell stops bleed.) in a nation is going to be more common in japan than a Death head transport.

Circling at 400 miles per hour is going to be a really big circle and not likely to keep the target in range.

Sure you can shoot the dragon (providing you can get the angle with the guns) but you forget the dragon can teleport away if it gets to badly hurt and regenerate up its MDC (or even use spells to prevent the cannon damage from the transport.) the dragons melee attacks would add up fast.

Why would you not be traveling at top speed let me think. Repairs, resupply, not wanting to over heat your engines(long way to go for the right parts) maneuverability, keeping a target in range.

Giving the location this is not likely a CS op, but a rouge element with a stolen transport.
You are also over looking they are on friendly terms with a golden age tech empire, who will come to their aid against such atrocities.

Being 100% honest, I missed the line when I read it. I don't play mages and was looking it up to see what it did. I fully admit. I missed that line.

That said, The line is idiotic and I'd ignore it. We've planes today that fly through hurricanes safe enough. A hurricane only hits cat 1 at 74 to 95mph
35 to 45 mph winds arn't an impediment now. 1000s of passenger jets fly through worse every day. Just yesterday, a jet used a 220mph tailwind to hop the Atlantic running at about 745mph. (You can google it) in comparison, winds of 220mph would be 63mph over the minimum needed for a Cat 5 hurricane. The jet not only did it, but cut over an hour off the transatlantic crossing doing so.

As for the circling at 400mph mking a wide circle, it might, but might not. Jets can turn pretty tight and this thing isn't even a jet. It's a hover vechile, who's areodynamics are that of a brick, yet it can hit 400mph. It's a sci-fi invention and we don't know 'how' it works.


The rest, isn't really in the equation. The op was "what would a village do" not what the entire nation and all their military and all their allies from other empires and what not, do"

People are overthinking this. Yes if someone in a medium sized MD transport tried to take on an entire nation it's going to lose.

If it's randomly attacking 'villages'. There's not going to be much there to stop it. Again, to even summon the elemental in question you have to be a lvl 9 or greater Warlock, and the mover's and shakers of the rifts world are level 7 to about 10. Generals incharge of entire armies of thousands of troops come in between lvl 7 and 10. So no, not every village would happen to have just the right rare npc there to do such things.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Why are you assuming that all the warlocks and summoners in the empire are stupid?

I'm not. If anything I'm acting like they're not prone to being around a village at just the right time.

No seriously. Your argument seems to boil down to "well no one would be smart enough to actually prepare for this, because no one else in the past three hundred years has possibly ever attacked the empire with an aircraft so none of the MILLIONS Tens of Thousands of magic users, and hundreds of thousands of priests in the empire would ever have given any thought to how to set up a contingency against it."

That's why we have F22 strike fighters protecting Podunk Idaho! Because we're smart, and we have the ability to make F22's and well gosh. It goes with out saying that VILLAGE in podunk Idaho has an F22 on station at all times! GAW. Like noone ever thought about.... wait..... ohhhh.

Hundreds of thousands of priests aren't warlocks. And Warlocks aren't every day magic users. They're a subset and thus less common. Of the number that -are- warlocks, you have to go into a further subset, 1 in 4 might be the right kinds. You (and others) are acting like ther's just thousands and thousands and thousands of the proper type magic user out there running around. That's before you even touch the fact they need to be lvl 9 or above.

That's not an argument that's simply hand waving away magic as inconvenient

But it is. On top of that, if you look at the above, having the right combo to get the air elemental in question is alot more inconvenient. having one at the proper level to try (With a rather low return) More so.

The simple fact is that warlocks can, and by canon DO summon their brothers to protect them

It's not a simple fact at all. To summon the one in question you have to be a lvl 9 warlock of appropriate flavor, and even then you've only got a 1 in 5 chance, if everything goes perfect.

The simple fact is that warlocks can, and do by canon give their brothers orders like 'protect this town' or 'destroy encroaching aircraft'

Which is great for a short period. Or if there is encroaching aircraft. But they don't just tool around and let minor gods do what they want between asignments. I.E. they dont' just summon the big ones and have them on hand all of the time.

The simple fact is that warlocks can, and do by canon give their brothers orders to go back home when the warlock dies

Which is nice, if it's done. If it's not... not so nice. I'm not sure, but once the warlock is dead, the commands are gone. It could decide to do what ever it wanted to. Like laying waste to the village the Warlock made it protect, because it didn't LIKE being here in the first place. Probably a GM call.

The simple fact is that no you DONT have to have 'something for the elemental to do' its happy to help its brother. And when its not smiting airships in can be helping chase storms around, destroy oni, or any of a thousand other tasks.

Well that 'is' something for it to do, but what I read said they don't like it here and want to go home, the longer you keep them the pissier they get. They're not puppies, they're violent mega damage, supernatural Alien creatures, that don't think how we do. The write up itself talks about them having no problem destroying villages and killing thousands because.. they just don't care. More than not caring, they don't even understand why you might care.

SO yes. The logical answer to "what will the Empire do" is "send in air elementals"

Not really. The logistics are improbable if you look at it from the long view. If the APC started attacking cities or something, maybe but outlaying villages? Not so much. It'd be like having that F22 on station over the podunk villiage in Idaho at all times. It just doesn't happen.

They have the resources to do so

Highly debatable. Players looking down from 'god mode' like to say such things, but a simple look at it indicates that it's not as simple as all that. You need a warlock, who's a subset of magic user that's not overly common (Not ultra rare, but it's not like half the magic users are warlocks. it's a small percentage) Of that small percentage you can automatically cut out 3/4ths of them. 75% just don't work. You can just discount them. So you have a 1 in 4 subset of a already smallish subset. Then on top of it you have to have a High level one at that. Which is going to cut your numbers even more. Then you have to have the right Warlock in the right village, and at the right time.

Is it impossible? no. Is it likely? I don't think so at all.

They have the knowledge to do so

A very small subset does. Not common, and limited in application by it's numbers. Would they have someone in big cities? Likely, but the op stipulated a village. Which is not a city, not even a town. Villages are small, usually remote and don't have everything that cities of tens or hundreds of thousands do.

They presumably have the experience to do so

Again this goes to the 'very small subset' does. If you look in the books, the generals and what not that have been "Doing" their OOC for decades and decades and lead armies and nations are about the same level to try and summon one of these things. Are there people that can? Sure. They're just not a dime a dozen like some would make out.

And the proposed solution "send in an air elemental" WORKS (Heck even a MINOR air elemental would be a major threat to the ship let a lone a pack of three or four of them. If you don't believe me try running the scenario some time.)

It works, it's not not overly practical for a village. The solution "Summon Zeus to kick their butts" works too but it's not going to happen often. (Air elemental would be more often, lol ) My point isn't that it's impossible. It's that people often overlook the limitations.

you see A-LOT of talk about Major Air Elementals. But few people look up all the requirements needed to even attempt that (at a paltry return), and how dangerous those things are even when you get um here. Just because they like the warlock doesn't mean they won't kill every human for miles, for some offence that humans can't even fathom. "Oh they breathed in the air that I am made of. So I killed them to stop it" I mean you just don't KNOW, and depending on the GM, it could get bad. The book tells you this sort of thing is a possibility. It's not evne the GM trying to screw a char. It's something built right into the creature you're pulling from another dimension to work like an anti aircraft gun.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Bottom left of page 59 conversion book one (revised and origional) says

"A warlock derives his magic powers and spells directly from his elemental lord/force in much the same way as a witch and some priests from their supernatural allegiance. The elemental being that represents the warlock's chosen (elemental) life sign gives him the power and grants him the elemental magic. The spell casting ability is not learned (like wizardry), but endowed by the elemental deity. The spell is cast by invoking the elemental power word(s) in a simple chant. Otherwise,warlock magic in Rifts works like the ley line walker's magic, Each spell requires a certain amount of P.P.E. and once that energy is temporarily expended, no more spells can be cast."

which makes it clear that it is different from ley line magic in that it only takes a simple chant of one word. right in the OCC

Actually it doesn't. Your write up sayds word(s) meaning the chant could be more than one word. It does say simple chant, but I don't really see "Simple chant" a.ny different from "Saying the spell" For a ley line walker or anything.

Regardless the rest says it works like ley line walker's magic. Magic sections point out that you can disrupt spell casting almost effortlessly. That Mages can't cast in combat at all, and there's even rules for mages having to stop and catch their breath before they can even try again. Something as simple as a fist punch is enough to disrupt the spell. Parrying or dodging in combat, moving, etc. They point out that mages re great in ambush or from the rear lines, concealed and throwing spells from the bushes, but in straight up combat they lose much of their ability straight off the top, as they can't 'cast' and 'fight' at the same time.

[eliakon]

Why are you assuming that all the warlocks and summoners in the empire are stupid?

I'm not. If anything I'm acting like they're not prone to being around a village at just the right time.

This isn't about the village, its about the NATIONS RESPONSE to the massacre (hence the OPs original question)

No seriously. Your argument seems to boil down to "well no one would be smart enough to actually prepare for this, because no one else in the past three hundred years has possibly ever attacked the empire with an aircraft so none of the MILLIONS Tens of Thousands of magic users, and hundreds of thousands of priests in the empire would ever have given any thought to how to set up a contingency against it."

That's why we have F22 strike fighters protecting Podunk Idaho! Because we're smart, and we have the ability to make F22's and well gosh. It goes with out saying that VILLAGE in podunk Idaho has an F22 on station at all times! GAW. Like noone ever thought about.... wait..... ohhhh.

Yes actually that's a GREAT analogy. When the US was attacked on 9-11 the military scrambled its fighters, and had them deployed to intercept things no matter WHERE they attacked. Air cover was set up so that if Podunk Idaho was attacked, then a squadron can reach there quickly.
So yes, thank you for making my point.

Hundreds of thousands of priests aren't warlocks. And Warlocks aren't every day magic users. They're a subset and thus less common. Of the number that -are- warlocks, you have to go into a further subset, 1 in 4 might be the right kinds. You (and others) are acting like ther's just thousands and thousands and thousands of the proper type magic user out there running around. That's before you even touch the fact they need to be lvl 9 or above.

ANY warlock and ANY shifter and ANY summoner can summon an elemental at level 1. A warlock only needs to be level 9 to summon a GREATER elemental (which is likely a good example of something to be 'scrambled' after the fact)

That's not an argument that's simply hand waving away magic as inconvenient

But it is. On top of that, if you look at the above, having the right combo to get the air elemental in question is alot more inconvenient. having one at the proper level to try (With a rather low return) More so.

So of the ~120,000+(2% of a nation of 6 million +) magic users in the empire how many do you think are either Warlocks with an Air component, Summoners, or Shifter?

The simple fact is that warlocks can, and by canon DO summon their brothers to protect them

It's not a simple fact at all. To summon the one in question you have to be a lvl 9 warlock of appropriate flavor, and even then you've only got a 1 in 5 chance, if everything goes perfect.

Again only if your looking for a greater elemental, lesser air elementals are still great for local defense and more than sufficient to take down most tech ships

The simple fact is that warlocks can, and do by canon give their brothers orders like 'protect this town' or 'destroy encroaching aircraft'

Which is great for a short period. Or if there is encroaching aircraft. But they don't just tool around and let minor gods do what they want between asignments. I.E. they dont' just summon the big ones and have them on hand all of the time.

Again your just making up facts to fit your view.
The fact is that warlocks in canon do summon their brothers to help them, and that they do allow these 'minor gods' as you like to call them (which is btw your term and not supported by any official text that I can see) just hang around.

The simple fact is that warlocks can, and do by canon give their brothers orders to go back home when the warlock dies

Which is nice, if it's done. If it's not... not so nice. I'm not sure, but once the warlock is dead, the commands are gone. It could decide to do what ever it wanted to. Like laying waste to the village the Warlock made it protect, because it didn't LIKE being here in the first place. Probably a GM call.

If we are going to make assumptions like "okay all the mages are stupid idiots AND the elementals are all going to act contrary to the canon description so that we can make sure to screw the mages" then sure...but for a canon game that's not a problem

The simple fact is that no you DONT have to have 'something for the elemental to do' its happy to help its brother. And when its not smiting airships in can be helping chase storms around, destroy oni, or any of a thousand other tasks.

Well that 'is' something for it to do, but what I read said they don't like it here and want to go home, the longer you keep them the pissier they get. They're not puppies, they're violent mega damage, supernatural Alien creatures, that don't think how we do. The write up itself talks about them having no problem destroying villages and killing thousands because.. they just don't care. More than not caring, they don't even understand why you might care.

Yes, so when that elemental asks to be sent home, you send it home, and summon another one. How hard is that to understand?

SO yes. The logical answer to "what will the Empire do" is "send in air elementals"

Not really. The logistics are improbable if you look at it from the long view. If the APC started attacking cities or something, maybe but outlaying villages? Not so much. It'd be like having that F22 on station over the podunk villiage in Idaho at all times. It just doesn't happen.

No its like having an airbase in the central united states that can scramble a fighter to guard Idaho (greater elemental) and having a police department on hand in Podunk (lesser)
Or do you just assume that, for equivilant example, that there are no CS security forces anyplace but the military fortressess in CS territory. I mean its unreasonable to assume that the CS would have patrols, or station security or anything. Especially if they were attacked....

They have the resources to do so

Highly debatable. Players looking down from 'god mode' like to say such things, but a simple look at it indicates that it's not as simple as all that. You need a warlock, who's a subset of magic user that's not overly common (Not ultra rare, but it's not like half the magic users are warlocks. it's a small percentage) Of that small percentage you can automatically cut out 3/4ths of them. 75% just don't work. You can just discount them. So you have a 1 in 4 subset of a already smallish subset. Then on top of it you have to have a High level one at that. Which is going to cut your numbers even more. Then you have to have the right Warlock in the right village, and at the right time.

Is it impossible? no. Is it likely? I don't think so at all.

Your math is flawed.
You don't need 1/4 you need
4/10 warlocks (Air, Air-Fire, Air-Water, Air-Earth) so 40% not 25%
And they only have to be level 1 or higher (so 100% of them)

They have the knowledge to do so

A very small subset does. Not common, and limited in application by it's numbers. Would they have someone in big cities? Likely, but the op stipulated a village. Which is not a city, not even a town. Villages are small, usually remote and don't have everything that cities of tens or hundreds of thousands do.

A village was attacked. You keep ignoring that this is not about villages but "how does the empire respond" There is a difference. Its like saying that simply because I can shoot up one CS patrol, that I am immune to any CS problems, since nothing exists except the individual isolated bits that I am choosing to deal with right then and there.

They presumably have the experience to do so

Again this goes to the 'very small subset' does. If you look in the books, the generals and what not that have been "Doing" their OOC for decades and decades and lead armies and nations are about the same level to try and summon one of these things. Are there people that can? Sure. They're just not a dime a dozen like some would make out.

I am sure that generals don't have to do things personally. They can sort of deligate to their officers, who deligate to their subordinates on down the line. But knowledge and experience are institutional. Every person in the army doesn't need to have fought every battle to have the institutional knowledge that "in situation A do reaction B"

And the proposed solution "send in an air elemental" WORKS (Heck even a MINOR air elemental would be a major threat to the ship let a lone a pack of three or four of them. If you don't believe me try running the scenario some time.)

It works, it's not not overly practical for a village. The solution "Summon Zeus to kick their butts" works too but it's not going to happen often. (Air elemental would be more often, lol ) My point isn't that it's impossible. It's that people often overlook the limitations.

you see A-LOT of talk about Major Air Elementals. But few people look up all the requirements needed to even attempt that (at a paltry return), and how dangerous those things are even when you get um here. Just because they like the warlock doesn't mean they won't kill every human for miles, for some offence that humans can't even fathom. "Oh they breathed in the air that I am made of. So I killed them to stop it" I mean you just don't KNOW, and depending on the GM, it could get bad. The book tells you this sort of thing is a possibility. It's not evne the GM trying to screw a char. It's something built right into the creature you're pulling from another dimension to work like an anti aircraft gun.

[/quote]
I really don't understand what point your trying to make here.


Let me be a bit more clear.
PCs attack village
Empire military finds out
Empire military implements "Air Pirate contingency plan 3"
As part of APCP3 some air elementals are summoned and sent out to find and engage the APC

What part of this seems disproportionate?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Bottom left of page 59 conversion book one (revised and origional) says

"A warlock derives his magic powers and spells directly from his elemental lord/force in much the same way as a witch and some priests from their supernatural allegiance. The elemental being that represents the warlock's chosen (elemental) life sign gives him the power and grants him the elemental magic. The spell casting ability is not learned (like wizardry), but endowed by the elemental deity. The spell is cast by invoking the elemental power word(s) in a simple chant. Otherwise,warlock magic in Rifts works like the ley line walker's magic, Each spell requires a certain amount of P.P.E. and once that energy is temporarily expended, no more spells can be cast."

which makes it clear that it is different from ley line magic in that it only takes a simple chant of one word. right in the OCC

Actually it doesn't. Your write up says word(s) meaning the chant could be more than one word. It does say simple chant, but I don't really see "Simple chant" a.ny different from "Saying the spell" For a ley line walker or anything.

yes, because some warlorks have two elements and thus two elemental words, we were talking about a single-element warlock. not that having to chant the names of both your lords would be much harder.

Regardless the rest says it works like ley line walker's magic.

Except for what's required to cast the spell, which is the subject of debate. you are basically saying "Yes, but it works just like regular magic, except for the one part under discussion". Huh?

Magic sections point out that you can disrupt spell casting almost effortlessly. That Mages can't cast in combat at all, and there's even rules for mages having to stop and catch their breath before they can even try again. Something as simple as a fist punch is enough to disrupt the spell. Parrying or dodging in combat, moving, etc. They point out that mages re great in ambush or from the rear lines, concealed and throwing spells from the bushes, but in straight up combat they lose much of their ability straight off the top, as they can't 'cast' and 'fight' at the same time.

I would question the "almost effortlessly. For one, the mysteries of magic book says the attack has to deal at least 8 points or more of damage to distract them (Lil' timmy's rocks don't work no more). It also only says dodging in combat disrupts the spell, parrying does not.

That said, mages are still well advised to hide behind cover while casting spells, but it's not as trivial as you make it out.

Honestly, a mages best friend is a TW device with shadow meld, sinse unlike invisibility you don't lose it when you attack. (Mind, that's not relevent to our New Empire scenario, just a general point)

[Lenwen]

How do they ? Air elementals. Several major air elementals are enough to take out any tech based aircraft and rather trivially to be honest .. Failing that many lessor air elementals will do the exact same thing..

Coalition deaths head transport versus major air elemental .. Air elemental takes it out more times then the dht can take that elemental out..

[eliakon]

A MINOR Air Elemental has
1d6x100 MDC
Is naturally invisible
and immune to normal weapons (though it can be hurt by MD energy attacks)
Has 1d4x100 PPE
All air spells 1-4
and can 'punch' up to 60 feet away.

Not To Shabby

[Warmaster40k]

On the thing about range, the m16 got a max effective range of about 3600 meters. That sounds great till you realise that most encounters take place at around under 50 meters, this is in real life, so most of this range talk is just silly white room nonsense. Also any range worth his salt is going to have the spells to get close enough, such as fly, invisibility or even chameleon. Not to mention the vast capabilities of that tree thing the imperial Japanese got growing all over the place.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Why are you assuming that all the warlocks and summoners in the empire are stupid?

I'm not. If anything I'm acting like they're not prone to being around a village at just the right time.

This isn't about the village, its about the NATIONS RESPONSE to the massacre (hence the OPs original question)

It is about the village, the OP was about the APC flyng in and attacking the village and what could the village do to stop it. Not a national contingency plan.

No seriously. Your argument seems to boil down to "well no one would be smart enough to actually prepare for this, because no one else in the past three hundred years has possibly ever attacked the empire with an aircraft so none of the MILLIONS Tens of Thousands of magic users, and hundreds of thousands of priests in the empire would ever have given any thought to how to set up a contingency against it."

That's why we have F22 strike fighters protecting Podunk Idaho! Because we're smart, and we have the ability to make F22's and well gosh. It goes with out saying that VILLAGE in podunk Idaho has an F22 on station at all times! GAW. Like noone ever thought about.... wait..... ohhhh.

Yes actually that's a GREAT analogy. When the US was attacked on 9-11 the military scrambled its fighters, and had them deployed to intercept things no matter WHERE they attacked. Air cover was set up so that if Podunk Idaho was attacked, then a squadron can reach there quickly.
So yes, thank you for making my point.

But it's not. The attack was out of the blue on a distant village. The nation in question doesn't have satalites and the US military. You're acting like that F22 is over every city, every town, every village, every hamlet, every shack, every out house. It's just not viable nor even remotely logisticly possible.

Hundreds of thousands of priests aren't warlocks. And Warlocks aren't every day magic users. They're a subset and thus less common. Of the number that -are- warlocks, you have to go into a further subset, 1 in 4 might be the right kinds. You (and others) are acting like ther's just thousands and thousands and thousands of the proper type magic user out there running around. That's before you even touch the fact they need to be lvl 9 or above.

ANY warlock and ANY shifter and ANY summoner can summon an elemental at level 1. A warlock only needs to be level 9 to summon a GREATER elemental (which is likely a good example of something to be 'scrambled' after the fact)

Yes.. the Greater elemental is what we were discussing. With the range boost and all that stuff. It's what we've been talking about for a while now. Not lessors which are much weaker, and don't get the range boost and other things.

That's not an argument that's simply hand waving away magic as inconvenient

But it is. On top of that, if you look at the above, having the right combo to get the air elemental in question is alot more inconvenient. having one at the proper level to try (With a rather low return) More so.

So of the ~120,000+(2% of a nation of 6 million +) magic users in the empire how many do you think are either Warlocks with an Air component, Summoners, or Shifter?

The simple fact is that warlocks can, and by canon DO summon their brothers to protect them

It's not a simple fact at all. To summon the one in question you have to be a lvl 9 warlock of appropriate flavor, and even then you've only got a 1 in 5 chance, if everything goes perfect.

Again only if your looking for a greater elemental, lesser air elementals are still great for local defense and more than sufficient to take down most tech ships

We've been talking about the greater.

The simple fact is that warlocks can, and do by canon give their brothers orders like 'protect this town' or 'destroy encroaching aircraft'

Which is great for a short period. Or if there is encroaching aircraft. But they don't just tool around and let minor gods do what they want between asignments. I.E. they dont' just summon the big ones and have them on hand all of the time.

Again your just making up facts to fit your view.
The fact is that warlocks in canon do summon their brothers to help them, and that they do allow these 'minor gods' as you like to call them (which is btw your term and not supported by any official text that I can see) just hang around.

You may want to open the book and read up on the elementals you're trying to deputize into the fight.

The simple fact is that warlocks can, and do by canon give their brothers orders to go back home when the warlock dies

Which is nice, if it's done. If it's not... not so nice. I'm not sure, but once the warlock is dead, the commands are gone. It could decide to do what ever it wanted to. Like laying waste to the village the Warlock made it protect, because it didn't LIKE being here in the first place. Probably a GM call.

If we are going to make assumptions like "okay all the mages are stupid idiots AND the elementals are all going to act contrary to the canon description so that we can make sure to screw the mages" then sure...but for a canon game that's not a problem

Well there's plenty of canon arguemnt that many mages are pretty stupid. lol If you look at the SoT there was an entire nation of stupid ones that wouldn't get out of the way of certain death, even though everyone else on the planet told um it was coming. Course other mages told them that too, but.. a nation of stupid mages does help support the point.

It's just not the point I was trying to make. You're adding assumed rules and conditions and orders and such which are not in evidence.i

As for the Elementals. Again, open up the conversion book and read up on them. YES they DO act Contrary, it's not contrary to their description at all. Their discription is very clear that they're alien beings (Alien as in totally strange and incomprehensable) that function on thought processes that aren't remotely like our own. yes, an elemental might burn an entire village to the ground and everyone in it... just because it's a fire elemental and likes fire. Not caring one iota about the people screaming and running around. (Yes that's a fire one, I'm just making an example) An air elemental might blow over every house in town, for the sheer joy of blowing things over. It might lift humans 1000s of feet in the air and drop them to see if they can fly. It might try and scour the land flat, all buildings all people even all trees, just so the air can flow better across the ground. Or it might cast tornadows into houses just because it felt like it at that moment.

They're not puppies. they're not even attack dogs. At the very best they're dangerous psychotic supernatural forces on a thread thin leash, at the very best of times.

The simple fact is that no you DONT have to have 'something for the elemental to do' its happy to help its brother. And when its not smiting airships in can be helping chase storms around, destroy oni, or any of a thousand other tasks.

Well that 'is' something for it to do, but what I read said they don't like it here and want to go home, the longer you keep them the pissier they get. They're not puppies, they're violent mega damage, supernatural Alien creatures, that don't think how we do. The write up itself talks about them having no problem destroying villages and killing thousands because.. they just don't care. More than not caring, they don't even understand why you might care.

Yes, so when that elemental asks to be sent home, you send it home, and summon another one. How hard is that to understand?

It's not. It's that you're taking the world out of the game. You're doing what many do, and reverting it to base numbers and not applying the actual game world to your 'equasion' "Well it takes Xppe, to summon Y creature and by the rules I have Z amout of time before creature Y kills me so if I let it go at Z-1 second I'm 100% fine and then can reapply the equasion" That's just not a real application of what we're playing. Yes, by the numbers it might work but that's not how people function, and it's not how things would function in the world.

There was a guy that tried to build the ultimate "PPERape,turn to talisman,=PROFIT" Equation like that once on the boards. Totally ignoring anything remotely like what such a thing would be in the game world and the ramifications of it.

Can a sufficiently high level warlock summon a Major elemental? Sure. Can he use it in combat? sure. Is it something he does for giggles? Unlikely. Is it something he does in a rotating regimental effort to have such a powerful creature lurking around at all times? Very unlikely. What if the thing decides to kill all the babies because it doesn't like the sound they make, or the smell and that warlock didn't give it -specific- no killing babies, rule. Or that it doesn't even understand what a baby is, and doesn't consider it a person, so if it's told 'Only kill the people I tell you to" that alien creature sees infants as another life form and kills them to watchum scream.

People ignore that aspect and act like theyr'e just mindless robots. Sitting still doing absolutely nothing unless a warlock gestures with his pinky and says 'sickum!'

SO yes. The logical answer to "what will the Empire do" is "send in air elementals"

Not really. The logistics are improbable if you look at it from the long view. If the APC started attacking cities or something, maybe but outlaying villages? Not so much. It'd be like having that F22 on station over the podunk villiage in Idaho at all times. It just doesn't happen.

No its like having an airbase in the central united states that can scramble a fighter to guard Idaho (greater elemental) and having a police department on hand in Podunk (lesser)
Or do you just assume that, for equivilant example, that there are no CS security forces anyplace but the military fortressess in CS territory. I mean its unreasonable to assume that the CS would have patrols, or station security or anything. Especially if they were attacked....

But th OP was just talking about the village. Not the entire nation's military responce. It was what could a village in the Empire do?
As for the CS. They have 3million+ troops in their armies now and we have canon saying they do patrol and allt hat stuff. But if a village out in the boonies was attacked by.. an air elemental for example, the same sort of answer is likely to be had. "Die alot"
Could the CS as a nation address it? Yes. Does tht village have constant 24/7 attention of a CS general and all his troops on station at all times? no.

They have the resources to do so

Highly debatable. Players looking down from 'god mode' like to say such things, but a simple look at it indicates that it's not as simple as all that. You need a warlock, who's a subset of magic user that's not overly common (Not ultra rare, but it's not like half the magic users are warlocks. it's a small percentage) Of that small percentage you can automatically cut out 3/4ths of them. 75% just don't work. You can just discount them. So you have a 1 in 4 subset of a already smallish subset. Then on top of it you have to have a High level one at that. Which is going to cut your numbers even more. Then you have to have the right Warlock in the right village, and at the right time.

Is it impossible? no. Is it likely? I don't think so at all.

Your math is flawed.
You don't need 1/4 you need
4/10 warlocks (Air, Air-Fire, Air-Water, Air-Earth) so 40% not 25%
And they only have to be level 1 or higher (so 100% of them)

First. No. We're talking about the major elemental. If you missed that along the way, then pick that up. Its easy to ignore because it helps your numbers but we've been talking about the Major for quite a few posts/days.
Second. I wasn't factoring in cross warlocks, but even if you do, is there anything saying that they have 100% equal represntation? Doubtful. Possible but doubtful. And that's with out even looking up to see if the cross ones can do it.

They have the knowledge to do so

A very small subset does. Not common, and limited in application by it's numbers. Would they have someone in big cities? Likely, but the op stipulated a village. Which is not a city, not even a town. Villages are small, usually remote and don't have everything that cities of tens or hundreds of thousands do.

A village was attacked. You keep ignoring that this is not about villages but "how does the empire respond" There is a difference. Its like saying that simply because I can shoot up one CS patrol, that I am immune to any CS problems, since nothing exists except the individual isolated bits that I am choosing to deal with right then and there.

Not at all. We've been talking about how a village IN THE EMPIRE responds. Not fast attack responce from military bases how ever many 100s of miles away.

Not for nothing, but how would you even send an air elemental on station? It's not like you can show them a map. They wouldn't have a clue of what they're looking at. They don't know how to read so they can't follow roadsigns, and have no concept of distance in miles so you can't even say "58 miles that way"

They presumably have the experience to do so

Again this goes to the 'very small subset' does. If you look in the books, the generals and what not that have been "Doing" their OOC for decades and decades and lead armies and nations are about the same level to try and summon one of these things. Are there people that can? Sure. They're just not a dime a dozen like some would make out.

I am sure that generals don't have to do things personally.

If your 'general' (Level 9 or greater air warlock) is the only one that can summon the major elemental. yes he has to do it personally. he can't delegate that. And that's the point. You need the equivalent of a general to even try and get this thing on the field. and even then you have a 1 in 5 chance if everything goes perfect.

They can sort of deligate to their officers, who deligate to their subordinates on down the line. But knowledge and experience are institutional. Every person in the army doesn't need to have fought every battle to have the institutional knowledge that "in situation A do reaction B"

And the proposed solution "send in an air elemental" WORKS (Heck even a MINOR air elemental would be a major threat to the ship let a lone a pack of three or four of them. If you don't believe me try running the scenario some time.)

It works, it's not not overly practical for a village. The solution "Summon Zeus to kick their butts" works too but it's not going to happen often. (Air elemental would be more often, lol ) My point isn't that it's impossible. It's that people often overlook the limitations.

you see A-LOT of talk about Major Air Elementals. But few people look up all the requirements needed to even attempt that (at a paltry return), and how dangerous those things are even when you get um here. Just because they like the warlock doesn't mean they won't kill every human for miles, for some offence that humans can't even fathom. "Oh they breathed in the air that I am made of. So I killed them to stop it" I mean you just don't KNOW, and depending on the GM, it could get bad. The book tells you this sort of thing is a possibility. It's not evne the GM trying to screw a char. It's something built right into the creature you're pulling from another dimension to work like an anti aircraft gun.

I really don't understand what point your trying to make here. [/quote]

That much is very clear.

My point is that they're dangerous unpredictable monsters, that you're treating like automated defense systems, and that they may indeed be more dangerous to have around than the random predation of raiders, for the simple reason that they're alien and don't think like we do and would see nothing wrong with killing every living creature for 100 miles as a game. Like some little human girl running through a field of flowers.

My point is people are ignoring -what- they're proposing in the game, vs equations and numbers that are in the book. "Xppe to summon Y creature" type thing. You're supposed to role play it out, and if the GM is ignoring how violent and unpredictable and totally spaztastic and unfathomable these things are, then it's ignoring the main portion ofthat creature and then you're just playing math with one another. Not the game.

Let me be a bit more clear.
PCs attack village
Empire military finds out
Empire military implements "Air Pirate contingency plan 3"
As part of APCP3 some air elementals are summoned and sent out to find and engage the APC

What part of this seems disproportionate?

That it wasn't a military or nation wide responce. That the original question is what could a village do in the empire if it were preyed upon in that nature. It wasn't 'What would the entire nation (and some people have even tried to pull in friendly nations around it) Do if one little village was attacked."

You're not wrong, if the military finds out they may move to do something. If the raiders are still around by the time a largely non technological nation in rifts has military on site, then they deserve what the military can throw at them.

The OP was speaking of a predation of a small village. (and Yes it's an assumption of mine that the raid wasn't done on a village beside a military base or in the interior of the nation. When such things are spoken of it is typically an out laying village.)

[Pepsi Jedi]

Bottom left of page 59 conversion book one (revised and origional) says

"A warlock derives his magic powers and spells directly from his elemental lord/force in much the same way as a witch and some priests from their supernatural allegiance. The elemental being that represents the warlock's chosen (elemental) life sign gives him the power and grants him the elemental magic. The spell casting ability is not learned (like wizardry), but endowed by the elemental deity. The spell is cast by invoking the elemental power word(s) in a simple chant. Otherwise,warlock magic in Rifts works like the ley line walker's magic, Each spell requires a certain amount of P.P.E. and once that energy is temporarily expended, no more spells can be cast."

which makes it clear that it is different from ley line magic in that it only takes a simple chant of one word. right in the OCC

Actually it doesn't. Your write up says word(s) meaning the chant could be more than one word. It does say simple chant, but I don't really see "Simple chant" a.ny different from "Saying the spell" For a ley line walker or anything.

yes, because some warlorks have two elements and thus two elemental words, we were talking about a single-element warlock. not that having to chant the names of both your lords would be much harder.

Again, not trying to be nitpicky but "Elemental power word(s) could be 500 different power words. They don't say. It's just stated that it's a simple chant. Could be 5, or 15, or 20 words in a chant, or depending on what you're trying to do you might need more 'elemental power words'.

Regardless the rest says it works like ley line walker's magic.

Except for what's required to cast the spell, which is the subject of debate. you are basically saying "Yes, but it works just like regular magic, except for the one part under discussion". Huh?

Well I'm not saying it. The rules said it.

Magic sections point out that you can disrupt spell casting almost effortlessly. That Mages can't cast in combat at all, and there's even rules for mages having to stop and catch their breath before they can even try again. Something as simple as a fist punch is enough to disrupt the spell. Parrying or dodging in combat, moving, etc. They point out that mages re great in ambush or from the rear lines, concealed and throwing spells from the bushes, but in straight up combat they lose much of their ability straight off the top, as they can't 'cast' and 'fight' at the same time.

I would question the "almost effortlessly. For one, the mysteries of magic book says the attack has to deal at least 8 points or more of damage to distract them (Lil' timmy's rocks don't work no more). It also only says dodging in combat disrupts the spell, parrying does not.

I don't know about mysteries of magic, but the RUE and book of magic say differently. I had to look it up a few days ago when a guy tried to cheat in a Pbp game I was in. One of the books says a punch to the mouth or stomach will do it. No stipulation on damage. They go further to state that being in combat prevents spell casting. That they can't do it at all if they're being attacked all out, or if they're fighting and parrying. Page 190 RUE "Even if the sorcerer is successfully parrying each attack, he is focused on protecting and defending himself" It goes on to say the same is true if he's physically attacking, running, or performing -any physical action-. That to cast, the mage will need to stop, catch his breath (Which it says would take 1 or 2 actions, just to catch your breath) then cast his spell. [/quote]

That said, mages are still well advised to hide behind cover while casting spells, but it's not as trivial as you make it out. [/quote]

That's the thing. It -really- is. They can't perform any physical action while casting or it interrupts the cast. And just getting popped in the mouth or stomach will do it too even if you aren't bobbing and dodging and weaving around. There' even a paragraph after that, talking about how they can be devastating if they're hiding in the bushes or behind a line of fighters and able to cast. With out those though, they're highly open to things that would stop their casting. It's one of the weaknesses built in to try and make magic on par/balanced with tech, that makes it harder for one mage to just dominate 50 men at arms. the RUE actually buffs mages. In the old rules it was worse. PPE Channeling was developed due to how bad it was in RMB. and then in RuE they make things easier for fast cast low level spells, but a 2 to 12 minute summoning ritual isn't a fast cast spell. So it's under the "Punch um in the mouth, or just fire at them in general to make um duck=spell interruption" Category.

[Incriptus]

The OP was speaking of a predation of a small village. (and Yes it's an assumption of mine that the raid wasn't done on a village beside a military base or in the interior of the nation. When such things are spoken of it is typically an out laying village.)

"The title. My players have a Coalition Death Bringer, with a 6000ft range cannon. What are the anti techies supposed to do? Send dragons? They destroyed a village and everybody in it, except for what witness. Any ideas?"

and the Title is "How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?"

So the actual question is

"How does the New Empire deal with flying technology? My players have a Coalition Death Bringer, with a 6000ft range cannon. What are the anti techies supposed to do? Send dragons? They destroyed a village and everybody in it, except for what witness. Any ideas?"

The original post is stating that a village has already been destroyed, how does the New Empire deal with it ... And I think the answer is "retaliates when the Death Bringer is in a vulnerable position"

[eliakon]

A few thoughts on mages.
6,800,000 total population
2% of that population is mages, that is one mage for every 50 people
That’s about 136,000 mages (this number does not include the 816,000 clergy)

Or about half as many police officers as there are in pre-rifts Japan for the entire NATION, for one empire that takes up less than a quarter of one of the islands.
Which seems to suggest that you are just as likely to see a mage in the Empire as you are to see a policeman in modern day Japan. (or more so)
I don’t know about you all, but I think that’s a good sign that there IS likely to be a mage when you need one.
So yes, I would say that mages are pretty common in the Empire.

[Library Ogre]

Again, not trying to be nitpicky but "Elemental power word(s) could be 500 different power words. They don't say. It's just stated that it's a simple chant. Could be 5, or 15, or 20 words in a chant, or depending on what you're trying to do you might need more 'elemental power words'.

PFRPG (the source of Warlocks) is pretty clear on what the Elemental Power Words are.

Ariel-Rapere-kyn: earth
Cherubot-kyn: air
Seraph-mytyn: fire
Tharsis-mycn: water

Complicated, but not impossible, invoking angels (or the powers behind angels, perhaps). Most are 4 syllable, Earth is 7.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Bottom left of page 59 conversion book one (revised and origional) says

"A warlock derives his magic powers and spells directly from his elemental lord/force in much the same way as a witch and some priests from their supernatural allegiance. The elemental being that represents the warlock's chosen (elemental) life sign gives him the power and grants him the elemental magic. The spell casting ability is not learned (like wizardry), but endowed by the elemental deity. The spell is cast by invoking the elemental power word(s) in a simple chant. Otherwise,warlock magic in Rifts works like the ley line walker's magic, Each spell requires a certain amount of P.P.E. and once that energy is temporarily expended, no more spells can be cast."

which makes it clear that it is different from ley line magic in that it only takes a simple chant of one word. right in the OCC

Actually it doesn't. Your write up says word(s) meaning the chant could be more than one word. It does say simple chant, but I don't really see "Simple chant" a.ny different from "Saying the spell" For a ley line walker or anything.

yes, because some warlorks have two elements and thus two elemental words, we were talking about a single-element warlock. not that having to chant the names of both your lords would be much harder.

Again, not trying to be nitpicky but "Elemental power word(s) could be 500 different power words. They don't say. It's just stated that it's a simple chant. Could be 5, or 15, or 20 words in a chant, or depending on what you're trying to do you might need more 'elemental power words'.

Umm, no they couldn't. They are called the "Four elemental power words" -- one for each element. the actual elemental power words are always the same, the full warlock OCC in the palladium fantasy book (remember, they are in the conversion book because they are from the palladium fantasy RPG) spells out exactly what the four elemental power words are, calls them that repeatedly, and lists exactly what they are. they cut that small section in the conversion book out for space, sure, but the power words are the same in rifts if you look at the list of them in the diabolist section. there's exactly one power word for each element.

Regardless the rest says it works like ley line walker's magic.

Except for what's required to cast the spell, which is the subject of debate. you are basically saying "Yes, but it works just like regular magic, except for the one part under discussion". Huh?

Well I'm not saying it. The rules said it.

Yes, the rules say that they don't have to do the funny chant and wavy gestures thing but are otherwise similar--so why are you arguing with me?

Magic sections point out that you can disrupt spell casting almost effortlessly. That Mages can't cast in combat at all, and there's even rules for mages having to stop and catch their breath before they can even try again. Something as simple as a fist punch is enough to disrupt the spell. Parrying or dodging in combat, moving, etc. They point out that mages re great in ambush or from the rear lines, concealed and throwing spells from the bushes, but in straight up combat they lose much of their ability straight off the top, as they can't 'cast' and 'fight' at the same time.

I would question the "almost effortlessly. For one, the mysteries of magic book says the attack has to deal at least 8 points or more of damage to distract them (Lil' timmy's rocks don't work no more). It also only says dodging in combat disrupts the spell, parrying does not.

I don't know about mysteries of magic, but the RUE and book of magic say differently. I had to look it up a few days ago when a guy tried to cheat in a Pbp game I was in. One of the books says a punch to the mouth or stomach will do it. No stipulation on damage. They go further to state that being in combat prevents spell casting. That they can't do it at all if they're being attacked all out, or if they're fighting and parrying. Page 190 RUE "Even if the sorcerer is successfully parrying each attack, he is focused on protecting and defending himself" It goes on to say the same is true if he's physically attacking, running, or performing -any physical action-. That to cast, the mage will need to stop, catch his breath (Which it says would take 1 or 2 actions, just to catch your breath) then cast his spell.

yes--and new books trump older material and the Mysteries of magic book came out after the RUE, further buffing mages again.

That said, mages are still well advised to hide behind cover while casting spells, but it's not as trivial as you make it out.

That's the thing. It -really- is. They can't perform any physical action while casting or it interrupts the cast. And just getting popped in the mouth or stomach will do it too even if you aren't bobbing and dodging and weaving around. There' even a paragraph after that, talking about how they can be devastating if they're hiding in the bushes or behind a line of fighters and able to cast. With out those though, they're highly open to things that would stop their casting. It's one of the weaknesses built in to try and make magic on par/balanced with tech, that makes it harder for one mage to just dominate 50 men at arms. the RUE actually buffs mages. In the old rules it was worse. PPE Channeling was developed due to how bad it was in RMB. and then in RuE they make things easier for fast cast low level spells, but a 2 to 12 minute summoning ritual isn't a fast cast spell. So it's under the "Punch um in the mouth, or just fire at them in general to make um duck=spell interruption" Category.

I don't think anyone suggested the Warlock stand out in the open while the deaths head transport could see him spellcasting--just that they would summon the elemental. really--assume that they are doing so with a modicum of common sense and doing it in a cave or basement. or do you really think when I say "The warlock summons an elemental" I mean "He stops what he's doing in the middle of the street and starts chanting?" be serious here. just because we don't say "They hide in the basement while doing it--assume they are doing it intelligently.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Bottom left of page 59 conversion book one (revised and origional) says

"A warlock derives his magic powers and spells directly from his elemental lord/force in much the same way as a witch and some priests from their supernatural allegiance. The elemental being that represents the warlock's chosen (elemental) life sign gives him the power and grants him the elemental magic. The spell casting ability is not learned (like wizardry), but endowed by the elemental deity. The spell is cast by invoking the elemental power word(s) in a simple chant. Otherwise,warlock magic in Rifts works like the ley line walker's magic, Each spell requires a certain amount of P.P.E. and once that energy is temporarily expended, no more spells can be cast."

which makes it clear that it is different from ley line magic in that it only takes a simple chant of one word. right in the OCC

Actually it doesn't. Your write up says word(s) meaning the chant could be more than one word. It does say simple chant, but I don't really see "Simple chant" a.ny different from "Saying the spell" For a ley line walker or anything.

yes, because some warlorks have two elements and thus two elemental words, we were talking about a single-element warlock. not that having to chant the names of both your lords would be much harder.

Again, not trying to be nitpicky but "Elemental power word(s) could be 500 different power words. They don't say. It's just stated that it's a simple chant. Could be 5, or 15, or 20 words in a chant, or depending on what you're trying to do you might need more 'elemental power words'.

Umm, no they couldn't. They are called the "Four elemental power words" -- one for each element. the actual elemental power words are always the same, the full warlock OCC in the palladium fantasy book (remember, they are in the conversion book because they are from the palladium fantasy RPG) spells out exactly what the four elemental power words are, calls them that repeatedly, and lists exactly what they are. they cut that small section in the conversion book out for space, sure, but the power words are the same in rifts if you look at the list of them in the diabolist section. there's exactly one power word for each element.

I'll admit. I didn't check the diabolist section for warlock power words. Nor a different game. I just looked in the conversion book. Where they are not stipulated.

Regardless the rest says it works like ley line walker's magic.

Except for what's required to cast the spell, which is the subject of debate. you are basically saying "Yes, but it works just like regular magic, except for the one part under discussion". Huh?

Well I'm not saying it. The rules said it.

Yes, the rules say that they don't have to do the funny chant and wavy gestures thing but are otherwise similar--so why are you arguing with me?

But the book DOES Say you have to do the funny chant thing. It's just a different chant. Instead of what ever (non stipulated) Magy gobbeldy gook. You're syaing Warlock Gobbly gook. the rest of the rules are the same. I.E. Spell interruption. If they say warlock words or what ever the non stipulated layline walker words they're still doing the words thing.

Magic sections point out that you can disrupt spell casting almost effortlessly. That Mages can't cast in combat at all, and there's even rules for mages having to stop and catch their breath before they can even try again. Something as simple as a fist punch is enough to disrupt the spell. Parrying or dodging in combat, moving, etc. They point out that mages re great in ambush or from the rear lines, concealed and throwing spells from the bushes, but in straight up combat they lose much of their ability straight off the top, as they can't 'cast' and 'fight' at the same time.

I would question the "almost effortlessly. For one, the mysteries of magic book says the attack has to deal at least 8 points or more of damage to distract them (Lil' timmy's rocks don't work no more). It also only says dodging in combat disrupts the spell, parrying does not.

I don't know about mysteries of magic, but the RUE and book of magic say differently. I had to look it up a few days ago when a guy tried to cheat in a Pbp game I was in. One of the books says a punch to the mouth or stomach will do it. No stipulation on damage. They go further to state that being in combat prevents spell casting. That they can't do it at all if they're being attacked all out, or if they're fighting and parrying. Page 190 RUE "Even if the sorcerer is successfully parrying each attack, he is focused on protecting and defending himself" It goes on to say the same is true if he's physically attacking, running, or performing -any physical action-. That to cast, the mage will need to stop, catch his breath (Which it says would take 1 or 2 actions, just to catch your breath) then cast his spell.

yes--and new books trump older material and the Mysteries of magic book came out after the RUE, further buffing mages again.

But that's not a rifts book. Being a newer one, it's stipulated "For the Palladium fantasy world". While many of palladium's systems are universal. Not all are. As a new book if it was universal updates on magic, wouldn't it stipulate so?

That's one of the very few books I don't have. Does it say it's universal in the book, or just for the fantasy setting?(honestly asking, as I don't know)

That said, mages are still well advised to hide behind cover while casting spells, but it's not as trivial as you make it out.

That's the thing. It -really- is. They can't perform any physical action while casting or it interrupts the cast. And just getting popped in the mouth or stomach will do it too even if you aren't bobbing and dodging and weaving around. There' even a paragraph after that, talking about how they can be devastating if they're hiding in the bushes or behind a line of fighters and able to cast. With out those though, they're highly open to things that would stop their casting. It's one of the weaknesses built in to try and make magic on par/balanced with tech, that makes it harder for one mage to just dominate 50 men at arms. the RUE actually buffs mages. In the old rules it was worse. PPE Channeling was developed due to how bad it was in RMB. and then in RuE they make things easier for fast cast low level spells, but a 2 to 12 minute summoning ritual isn't a fast cast spell. So it's under the "Punch um in the mouth, or just fire at them in general to make um duck=spell interruption" Category.

I don't think anyone suggested the Warlock stand out in the open while the deaths head transport could see him spellcasting--just that they would summon the elemental. really--assume that they are doing so with a modicum of common sense and doing it in a cave or basement. or do you really think when I say "The warlock summons an elemental" I mean "He stops what he's doing in the middle of the street and starts chanting?" be serious here. just because we don't say "They hide in the basement while doing it--assume they are doing it intelligently.

I don't know. My point being that if the transport was blowing up the town for 48 melees that being in a basement wouldn't be much good. Assuming 4 or 5 blasts per melee that's what? About 200 to 240 blasts raining down on a 'village'. Just from the main gun. If they're MD blasts they're likely coring straight through what ever buildings they're hitting (Meaning slamming down into the basement) As villages only have a small population, and not every single person in the town is going to own a private home for one person. Chances are every building in the town could be razed.

now I know that assumes you're in a basement. You could hide in the woods or elsewhere. My point that was if you were somewhere (anywhere) in the village, hiding or no and MD blasts are raining down by the 100s (literally) That it's likely that one will hit close enough to you at some point, that it would disrupt your chanting of one word over and over again for 12 minutes.
And that's just assuming the main gun. Taking a glance you need a crew of 8 on the thing. Pilot, Co pilot, and 4 gunners (Assuming just for ease the coms and intel officers aren't on guns.) One of the gunner's is on the main turret. Pilot takes the front two Laser turrets Two rear turrets get a single gunner and the middle two turrets are manned by the last 2 gunners.

So if they come in to 4,000 feet. Assuming low level pilot and gunners (Because I'm not going to assume super heroes flying the thing), lets say they have base minimum APM. 4 each.
That's 4 attacks per melee from the main cannon.
and 4X6= 24 per the laser turrents. Where in you could choose 6 individual targets per melee (1 from main cannon. 5 from the 6 turrents, the rear two being linked)

For a total of 28 minimum attacks per melee.

If the warlock got off his summon in the minimum amount of time, (2 minutes) That's 224 MD attacks raining down on the town. If it goes the full 12 minutes, 1344md attacks raining down on the village. That's attacks mind you. Not damage. Each attack will be 3D6 to 1D6X10.

The village is going to be atomized to the ground and likely glassed.

[Zer0 Kay]

The title. My players have a Coalition Death Bringer, with a 6000ft range cannon. What are the anti techies supposed to do? Send dragons? They destroyed a village and everybody in it, except for what witness. Any ideas?

Magic can stop all air travel.
See spell summon and control storm. (not sure but think a millennium tree can do it as well.)
They can magically teleport a boarding party on them. (again the tree should be able to this as well)
People can magically go invisible superior and fly in the path of the transport and board it.

(IF the new empire is the japan empire, they are friendly with the tech and they may come to aid of the anti tech against this atrocity.)

So there are three ways that the non tech can board and or destroy your transport. And that is not even really trying.

Before destroying a village many powerful heroes of the empire would not pay attention to them after such an act they will be hunted down. Teleporting in a squad of samurai or Ninja can spell a bad day for the PCs as the goal of such unit is not to kill the PC but destroy/bring the transport. So they could be hacking at power lines and controls instead of the PCs

Hmm... teleport into a moving vehicle... what? it's environmentally sealed too?...
Why do I have images of cardboard boxes on wheels?
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=24975&hilit=the+thread+that+never+ends

[Blue_Lion]

People should also remember these storms and ... lol. Hurricanes they're quick to whip out and try and swat down a flying target with, will do much more damage to their own turf. Hurricanes are nothing to sneeze at. These sort of tactics are like setting yourself on fire with gasoline and trying to hug your enemy to hurt him. If it gets bad there's nothing to stop the APC from just flying off for a bit and coming back later. 300PPE is nothing to sneeze at to try one of these defensive tactics. Then you tear up your own land trying to swat them out of the air. It's a bit self defeating. If you look at the effects the spell does alot worse to those on the ground, than in the air. So while you're 'trying' to effect the Death bringer. You really ARE affecting everything on the ground around you and making it 50 times harder on them. lol. Depending on which version of Palladium magic you're using, you might have just negated the ability for other mages to even 'try' and cast. Remember, mages have to do their hand motions and speak their spells. It expressly says they cannot do that while doing other physical actions. Running, or dodging, parrying in combat. Or... struggeling against windstorms or hurricanes. It's not like you can call winds big enough to swat at a MDC flying transport but your mage buddies can just stand there unaffected by those same winds and cast.

Dragons can surely get up in the air but they don't fly at 400 mph. They don't have 8,000 feet range on their weapon. Dragon comes after one of these things and the pilot just keeps them 7,000 feet infront of the dragon at all times and shoot him with impunity. If the dragon teleports close, he's suddenly not close when the apc moves at 400mph. I don't think their teleport is accurte enough to 'land' on something going 400 mph, but I'll admit I haven't looked at the rules in a bit. I can't think that'd be remotely easy.

The spell states that they stop all air travel has a 20 mile range and undefined AOE. The damage from the storm would be allot less than you raising the village if you read the spell.

Shure dragons can not fly at 400 miles per how but they can teleport. A collision (body block tackle) with an adult dragon is going to bring a screeching halt to speeding travel and the dragon is likely to be alive and can hang on as it bites and claws its way in.

I do not think your fling transport is a free pass to just level a whole empire by itself.

The summon storm doesn't say they stop all air travel. I've not looked up the hurricane one, but if you cast the hurricane on your own village, the APC just.. flys off and waits as the hurricane tears your village up, and when it's done can fly back in. Right? If you cast hurricane again... You've got a second hurricane tearing up your village and you fly away till it's over?

Teleporting infront of a flying apc going 400mph is going to hurt the dragon. If the dragon holds on. You shoot it. Right?

Ok now you are contradicting the book of magic.

Page 149 Rifts book of magic.
"The storm is accompanied by damaging winds gusting to 35 and 45 MPH. The rain and wind makes air travel impossible."

It is right in the book plane as day, right below the % roll for problems with ground vehicles that you roll every 2 miles traveled.
As to the range they can predict the time and direction of your attack with both magic and psionic so you can stop cast the storm ahead of the air vehicle 20 miles away from the village where you have a bunch of Hiding Ninjas waiting for it to land.

Having two spells below 8th level (probably can pull it off with 2 7th level spells but I know the 8th level armor spell stops bleed.) in a nation is going to be more common in japan than a Death head transport.

Circling at 400 miles per hour is going to be a really big circle and not likely to keep the target in range.

Sure you can shoot the dragon (providing you can get the angle with the guns) but you forget the dragon can teleport away if it gets to badly hurt and regenerate up its MDC (or even use spells to prevent the cannon damage from the transport.) the dragons melee attacks would add up fast.

Why would you not be traveling at top speed let me think. Repairs, resupply, not wanting to over heat your engines(long way to go for the right parts) maneuverability, keeping a target in range.

Giving the location this is not likely a CS op, but a rouge element with a stolen transport.
You are also over looking they are on friendly terms with a golden age tech empire, who will come to their aid against such atrocities.

Being 100% honest, I missed the line when I read it. I don't play mages and was looking it up to see what it did. I fully admit. I missed that line.

That said, The line is idiotic and I'd ignore it. We've planes today that fly through hurricanes safe enough. A hurricane only hits cat 1 at 74 to 95mph
35 to 45 mph winds arn't an impediment now. 1000s of passenger jets fly through worse every day. Just yesterday, a jet used a 220mph tailwind to hop the Atlantic running at about 745mph. (You can google it) in comparison, winds of 220mph would be 63mph over the minimum needed for a Cat 5 hurricane. The jet not only did it, but cut over an hour off the transatlantic crossing doing so.

As for the circling at 400mph mking a wide circle, it might, but might not. Jets can turn pretty tight and this thing isn't even a jet. It's a hover vechile, who's areodynamics are that of a brick, yet it can hit 400mph. It's a sci-fi invention and we don't know 'how' it works.


The rest, isn't really in the equation. The op was "what would a village do" not what the entire nation and all their military and all their allies from other empires and what not, do"

People are overthinking this. Yes if someone in a medium sized MD transport tried to take on an entire nation it's going to lose.

If it's randomly attacking 'villages'. There's not going to be much there to stop it. Again, to even summon the elemental in question you have to be a lvl 9 or greater Warlock, and the mover's and shakers of the rifts world are level 7 to about 10. Generals incharge of entire armies of thousands of troops come in between lvl 7 and 10. So no, not every village would happen to have just the right rare npc there to do such things.

Your opion on the line is not cannon and not relevant. In addition the plane that flies threw hurricanes the are made to do that and has a crew trained to do that are the exception not the rule. In real life fling threw storms is hard task for pilots.

A transport air craft for people can not make the same level of turns as a fighter. The reason is 1 it is not desined to 2 it would kill your passengers. So there is no reason to believe it was made to match the agility of a fighter as you said it is a fling brick sure you can push it fast in a straight line but turning would not be very fast.

[Blue_Lion]

Why are you assuming that all the warlocks and summoners in the empire are stupid?

I'm not. If anything I'm acting like they're not prone to being around a village at just the right time.

This isn't about the village, its about the NATIONS RESPONSE to the massacre (hence the OPs original question)

It is about the village, the OP was about the APC flyng in and attacking the village and what could the village do to stop it. Not a national contingency plan.

No seriously. Your argument seems to boil down to "well no one would be smart enough to actually prepare for this, because no one else in the past three hundred years has possibly ever attacked the empire with an aircraft so none of the MILLIONS Tens of Thousands of magic users, and hundreds of thousands of priests in the empire would ever have given any thought to how to set up a contingency against it."

That's why we have F22 strike fighters protecting Podunk Idaho! Because we're smart, and we have the ability to make F22's and well gosh. It goes with out saying that VILLAGE in podunk Idaho has an F22 on station at all times! GAW. Like noone ever thought about.... wait..... ohhhh.

Yes actually that's a GREAT analogy. When the US was attacked on 9-11 the military scrambled its fighters, and had them deployed to intercept things no matter WHERE they attacked. Air cover was set up so that if Podunk Idaho was attacked, then a squadron can reach there quickly.
So yes, thank you for making my point.

But it's not. The attack was out of the blue on a distant village. The nation in question doesn't have satalites and the US military. You're acting like that F22 is over every city, every town, every village, every hamlet, every shack, every out house. It's just not viable nor even remotely logisticly possible.

Hundreds of thousands of priests aren't warlocks. And Warlocks aren't every day magic users. They're a subset and thus less common. Of the number that -are- warlocks, you have to go into a further subset, 1 in 4 might be the right kinds. You (and others) are acting like ther's just thousands and thousands and thousands of the proper type magic user out there running around. That's before you even touch the fact they need to be lvl 9 or above.

ANY warlock and ANY shifter and ANY summoner can summon an elemental at level 1. A warlock only needs to be level 9 to summon a GREATER elemental (which is likely a good example of something to be 'scrambled' after the fact)

Yes.. the Greater elemental is what we were discussing. With the range boost and all that stuff. It's what we've been talking about for a while now. Not lessors which are much weaker, and don't get the range boost and other things.

That's not an argument that's simply hand waving away magic as inconvenient

But it is. On top of that, if you look at the above, having the right combo to get the air elemental in question is alot more inconvenient. having one at the proper level to try (With a rather low return) More so.

So of the ~120,000+(2% of a nation of 6 million +) magic users in the empire how many do you think are either Warlocks with an Air component, Summoners, or Shifter?

The simple fact is that warlocks can, and by canon DO summon their brothers to protect them

It's not a simple fact at all. To summon the one in question you have to be a lvl 9 warlock of appropriate flavor, and even then you've only got a 1 in 5 chance, if everything goes perfect.

Again only if your looking for a greater elemental, lesser air elementals are still great for local defense and more than sufficient to take down most tech ships

We've been talking about the greater.

The simple fact is that warlocks can, and do by canon give their brothers orders like 'protect this town' or 'destroy encroaching aircraft'

Which is great for a short period. Or if there is encroaching aircraft. But they don't just tool around and let minor gods do what they want between asignments. I.E. they dont' just summon the big ones and have them on hand all of the time.

Again your just making up facts to fit your view.
The fact is that warlocks in canon do summon their brothers to help them, and that they do allow these 'minor gods' as you like to call them (which is btw your term and not supported by any official text that I can see) just hang around.

You may want to open the book and read up on the elementals you're trying to deputize into the fight.

The simple fact is that warlocks can, and do by canon give their brothers orders to go back home when the warlock dies

Which is nice, if it's done. If it's not... not so nice. I'm not sure, but once the warlock is dead, the commands are gone. It could decide to do what ever it wanted to. Like laying waste to the village the Warlock made it protect, because it didn't LIKE being here in the first place. Probably a GM call.

If we are going to make assumptions like "okay all the mages are stupid idiots AND the elementals are all going to act contrary to the canon description so that we can make sure to screw the mages" then sure...but for a canon game that's not a problem

Well there's plenty of canon arguemnt that many mages are pretty stupid. lol If you look at the SoT there was an entire nation of stupid ones that wouldn't get out of the way of certain death, even though everyone else on the planet told um it was coming. Course other mages told them that too, but.. a nation of stupid mages does help support the point.

It's just not the point I was trying to make. You're adding assumed rules and conditions and orders and such which are not in evidence.i

As for the Elementals. Again, open up the conversion book and read up on them. YES they DO act Contrary, it's not contrary to their description at all. Their discription is very clear that they're alien beings (Alien as in totally strange and incomprehensable) that function on thought processes that aren't remotely like our own. yes, an elemental might burn an entire village to the ground and everyone in it... just because it's a fire elemental and likes fire. Not caring one iota about the people screaming and running around. (Yes that's a fire one, I'm just making an example) An air elemental might blow over every house in town, for the sheer joy of blowing things over. It might lift humans 1000s of feet in the air and drop them to see if they can fly. It might try and scour the land flat, all buildings all people even all trees, just so the air can flow better across the ground. Or it might cast tornadows into houses just because it felt like it at that moment.

They're not puppies. they're not even attack dogs. At the very best they're dangerous psychotic supernatural forces on a thread thin leash, at the very best of times.

The simple fact is that no you DONT have to have 'something for the elemental to do' its happy to help its brother. And when its not smiting airships in can be helping chase storms around, destroy oni, or any of a thousand other tasks.

Well that 'is' something for it to do, but what I read said they don't like it here and want to go home, the longer you keep them the pissier they get. They're not puppies, they're violent mega damage, supernatural Alien creatures, that don't think how we do. The write up itself talks about them having no problem destroying villages and killing thousands because.. they just don't care. More than not caring, they don't even understand why you might care.

Yes, so when that elemental asks to be sent home, you send it home, and summon another one. How hard is that to understand?

It's not. It's that you're taking the world out of the game. You're doing what many do, and reverting it to base numbers and not applying the actual game world to your 'equasion' "Well it takes Xppe, to summon Y creature and by the rules I have Z amout of time before creature Y kills me so if I let it go at Z-1 second I'm 100% fine and then can reapply the equasion" That's just not a real application of what we're playing. Yes, by the numbers it might work but that's not how people function, and it's not how things would function in the world.

There was a guy that tried to build the ultimate "PPERape,turn to talisman,=PROFIT" Equation like that once on the boards. Totally ignoring anything remotely like what such a thing would be in the game world and the ramifications of it.

Can a sufficiently high level warlock summon a Major elemental? Sure. Can he use it in combat? sure. Is it something he does for giggles? Unlikely. Is it something he does in a rotating regimental effort to have such a powerful creature lurking around at all times? Very unlikely. What if the thing decides to kill all the babies because it doesn't like the sound they make, or the smell and that warlock didn't give it -specific- no killing babies, rule. Or that it doesn't even understand what a baby is, and doesn't consider it a person, so if it's told 'Only kill the people I tell you to" that alien creature sees infants as another life form and kills them to watchum scream.

People ignore that aspect and act like theyr'e just mindless robots. Sitting still doing absolutely nothing unless a warlock gestures with his pinky and says 'sickum!'

SO yes. The logical answer to "what will the Empire do" is "send in air elementals"

Not really. The logistics are improbable if you look at it from the long view. If the APC started attacking cities or something, maybe but outlaying villages? Not so much. It'd be like having that F22 on station over the podunk villiage in Idaho at all times. It just doesn't happen.

No its like having an airbase in the central united states that can scramble a fighter to guard Idaho (greater elemental) and having a police department on hand in Podunk (lesser)
Or do you just assume that, for equivilant example, that there are no CS security forces anyplace but the military fortressess in CS territory. I mean its unreasonable to assume that the CS would have patrols, or station security or anything. Especially if they were attacked....

But th OP was just talking about the village. Not the entire nation's military responce. It was what could a village in the Empire do?
As for the CS. They have 3million+ troops in their armies now and we have canon saying they do patrol and allt hat stuff. But if a village out in the boonies was attacked by.. an air elemental for example, the same sort of answer is likely to be had. "Die alot"
Could the CS as a nation address it? Yes. Does tht village have constant 24/7 attention of a CS general and all his troops on station at all times? no.

They have the resources to do so

Highly debatable. Players looking down from 'god mode' like to say such things, but a simple look at it indicates that it's not as simple as all that. You need a warlock, who's a subset of magic user that's not overly common (Not ultra rare, but it's not like half the magic users are warlocks. it's a small percentage) Of that small percentage you can automatically cut out 3/4ths of them. 75% just don't work. You can just discount them. So you have a 1 in 4 subset of a already smallish subset. Then on top of it you have to have a High level one at that. Which is going to cut your numbers even more. Then you have to have the right Warlock in the right village, and at the right time.

Is it impossible? no. Is it likely? I don't think so at all.

Your math is flawed.
You don't need 1/4 you need
4/10 warlocks (Air, Air-Fire, Air-Water, Air-Earth) so 40% not 25%
And they only have to be level 1 or higher (so 100% of them)

First. No. We're talking about the major elemental. If you missed that along the way, then pick that up. Its easy to ignore because it helps your numbers but we've been talking about the Major for quite a few posts/days.
Second. I wasn't factoring in cross warlocks, but even if you do, is there anything saying that they have 100% equal represntation? Doubtful. Possible but doubtful. And that's with out even looking up to see if the cross ones can do it.

They have the knowledge to do so

A very small subset does. Not common, and limited in application by it's numbers. Would they have someone in big cities? Likely, but the op stipulated a village. Which is not a city, not even a town. Villages are small, usually remote and don't have everything that cities of tens or hundreds of thousands do.

A village was attacked. You keep ignoring that this is not about villages but "how does the empire respond" There is a difference. Its like saying that simply because I can shoot up one CS patrol, that I am immune to any CS problems, since nothing exists except the individual isolated bits that I am choosing to deal with right then and there.

Not at all. We've been talking about how a village IN THE EMPIRE responds. Not fast attack responce from military bases how ever many 100s of miles away.

Not for nothing, but how would you even send an air elemental on station? It's not like you can show them a map. They wouldn't have a clue of what they're looking at. They don't know how to read so they can't follow roadsigns, and have no concept of distance in miles so you can't even say "58 miles that way"

They presumably have the experience to do so

Again this goes to the 'very small subset' does. If you look in the books, the generals and what not that have been "Doing" their OOC for decades and decades and lead armies and nations are about the same level to try and summon one of these things. Are there people that can? Sure. They're just not a dime a dozen like some would make out.

I am sure that generals don't have to do things personally.

If your 'general' (Level 9 or greater air warlock) is the only one that can summon the major elemental. yes he has to do it personally. he can't delegate that. And that's the point. You need the equivalent of a general to even try and get this thing on the field. and even then you have a 1 in 5 chance if everything goes perfect.

They can sort of deligate to their officers, who deligate to their subordinates on down the line. But knowledge and experience are institutional. Every person in the army doesn't need to have fought every battle to have the institutional knowledge that "in situation A do reaction B"

And the proposed solution "send in an air elemental" WORKS (Heck even a MINOR air elemental would be a major threat to the ship let a lone a pack of three or four of them. If you don't believe me try running the scenario some time.)

It works, it's not not overly practical for a village. The solution "Summon Zeus to kick their butts" works too but it's not going to happen often. (Air elemental would be more often, lol ) My point isn't that it's impossible. It's that people often overlook the limitations.

you see A-LOT of talk about Major Air Elementals. But few people look up all the requirements needed to even attempt that (at a paltry return), and how dangerous those things are even when you get um here. Just because they like the warlock doesn't mean they won't kill every human for miles, for some offence that humans can't even fathom. "Oh they breathed in the air that I am made of. So I killed them to stop it" I mean you just don't KNOW, and depending on the GM, it could get bad. The book tells you this sort of thing is a possibility. It's not evne the GM trying to screw a char. It's something built right into the creature you're pulling from another dimension to work like an anti aircraft gun.

I really don't understand what point your trying to make here.

That much is very clear.

My point is that they're dangerous unpredictable monsters, that you're treating like automated defense systems, and that they may indeed be more dangerous to have around than the random predation of raiders, for the simple reason that they're alien and don't think like we do and would see nothing wrong with killing every living creature for 100 miles as a game. Like some little human girl running through a field of flowers.

My point is people are ignoring -what- they're proposing in the game, vs equations and numbers that are in the book. "Xppe to summon Y creature" type thing. You're supposed to role play it out, and if the GM is ignoring how violent and unpredictable and totally spaztastic and unfathomable these things are, then it's ignoring the main portion ofthat creature and then you're just playing math with one another. Not the game.

Let me be a bit more clear.
PCs attack village
Empire military finds out
Empire military implements "Air Pirate contingency plan 3"
As part of APCP3 some air elementals are summoned and sent out to find and engage the APC

What part of this seems disproportionate?

That it wasn't a military or nation wide responce. That the original question is what could a village do in the empire if it were preyed upon in that nature. It wasn't 'What would the entire nation (and some people have even tried to pull in friendly nations around it) Do if one little village was attacked."

You're not wrong, if the military finds out they may move to do something. If the raiders are still around by the time a largely non technological nation in rifts has military on site, then they deserve what the military can throw at them.

The OP was speaking of a predation of a small village. (and Yes it's an assumption of mine that the raid wasn't done on a village beside a military base or in the interior of the nation. When such things are spoken of it is typically an out laying village.)[/quote]
No the original post set up was they destroyed the village and question was how would they empire counter/deal with it. I mean really it is in the title of the thread.

So a response of the empire as a whole to the tragic event is what the OP is looking for not the response of the village he already said was destroyed.

[eliakon]

I don't know. My point being that if the transport was blowing up the town for 48 melees that being in a basement wouldn't be much good. Assuming 4 or 5 blasts per melee that's what? About 200 to 240 blasts raining down on a 'village'. Just from the main gun. If they're MD blasts they're likely coring straight through what ever buildings they're hitting (Meaning slamming down into the basement) As villages only have a small population, and not every single person in the town is going to own a private home for one person. Chances are every building in the town could be razed.

now I know that assumes you're in a basement. You could hide in the woods or elsewhere. My point that was if you were somewhere (anywhere) in the village, hiding or no and MD blasts are raining down by the 100s (literally) That it's likely that one will hit close enough to you at some point, that it would disrupt your chanting of one word over and over again for 12 minutes.
And that's just assuming the main gun. Taking a glance you need a crew of 8 on the thing. Pilot, Co pilot, and 4 gunners (Assuming just for ease the coms and intel officers aren't on guns.) One of the gunner's is on the main turret. Pilot takes the front two Laser turrets Two rear turrets get a single gunner and the middle two turrets are manned by the last 2 gunners.

So if they come in to 4,000 feet. Assuming low level pilot and gunners (Because I'm not going to assume super heroes flying the thing), lets say they have base minimum APM. 4 each.
That's 4 attacks per melee from the main cannon.
and 4X6= 24 per the laser turrents. Where in you could choose 6 individual targets per melee (1 from main cannon. 5 from the 6 turrents, the rear two being linked)

For a total of 28 minimum attacks per melee.

If the warlock got off his summon in the minimum amount of time, (2 minutes) That's 224 MD attacks raining down on the town. If it goes the full 12 minutes, 1344md attacks raining down on the village. That's attacks mind you. Not damage. Each attack will be 3D6 to 1D6X10.

The village is going to be atomized to the ground and likely glassed.

Its not the first village you worry about
Its not even the villiage your planning on shelling
Its the squadron of elementals that got summoned last week who are on orders to patrol this area and attack people shelling the ground that you worry about
Its the elemental that got summoned with orders to specifically hunt your ship down and destroy it you worry about

Arguing that you can stop a warlock from summoning an elemental DURING your attack is a straw man. No one is claiming that they will use that as a response to an attack, so the ability to prove that such a tactic (that no one is advocating) is useless is, well, useless.
The claim was that they would have summoned elementals BEFORE HAND, or that they would summon them AFTERWARD. So if you have a counter argument, then please address the actual proposal, not some imaginary straw man that no one is advocating.

[eliakon]

That much is very clear.

My point is that they're dangerous unpredictable monsters, that you're treating like automated defense systems, and that they may indeed be more dangerous to have around than the random predation of raiders, for the simple reason that they're alien and don't think like we do and would see nothing wrong with killing every living creature for 100 miles as a game. Like some little human girl running through a field of flowers.

My point is people are ignoring -what- they're proposing in the game, vs equations and numbers that are in the book. "Xppe to summon Y creature" type thing. You're supposed to role play it out, and if the GM is ignoring how violent and unpredictable and totally spaztastic and unfathomable these things are, then it's ignoring the main portion ofthat creature and then you're just playing math with one another. Not the game.

Except that is not how they are actually portrayed in the books. If you want to have them be random spaztastic monsters that's cool....but that is not the canon.

Let me be a bit more clear.
PCs attack village
Empire military finds out
Empire military implements "Air Pirate contingency plan 3"
As part of APCP3 some air elementals are summoned and sent out to find and engage the APC

What part of this seems disproportionate?

That it wasn't a military or nation wide responce. That the original question is what could a village do in the empire if it were preyed upon in that nature. It wasn't 'What would the entire nation (and some people have even tried to pull in friendly nations around it) Do if one little village was attacked."

You're not wrong, if the military finds out they may move to do something. If the raiders are still around by the time a largely non technological nation in rifts has military on site, then they deserve what the military can throw at them.

The OP was speaking of a predation of a small village. (and Yes it's an assumption of mine that the raid wasn't done on a village beside a military base or in the interior of the nation. When such things are spoken of it is typically an out laying village.)

No the original set up was they destroyed the village and question was how would they empire counter it.[/quote]
Yes, and the way that nations counter things is use their military.
The counter that would occur to bandits is ... the military and the police.
So yeah, exploring how the military and police are likely to run defense sort of *IS* the answer to 'how would this be handled'
How does the military handle it? It has contingency plans set up to try and prevent it (say....air elemental patrols)
What I am saying is that those things that would already be in place are what would be 'countering' this.
If you want to have some sort of set piece where its a DHT and a low tech villiage and they only exist in vacuums with nothing else existing then that's a totally different discussion, but that's NOT the discussion here. The discussion here is "what does the Empire have to deal with this" And that answer is "the military"

[Nekira Sudacne]

yes, because some warlorks have two elements and thus two elemental words, we were talking about a single-element warlock. not that having to chant the names of both your lords would be much harder.

Again, not trying to be nitpicky but "Elemental power word(s) could be 500 different power words. They don't say. It's just stated that it's a simple chant. Could be 5, or 15, or 20 words in a chant, or depending on what you're trying to do you might need more 'elemental power words'.

Umm, no they couldn't. They are called the "Four elemental power words" -- one for each element. the actual elemental power words are always the same, the full warlock OCC in the palladium fantasy book (remember, they are in the conversion book because they are from the palladium fantasy RPG) spells out exactly what the four elemental power words are, calls them that repeatedly, and lists exactly what they are. they cut that small section in the conversion book out for space, sure, but the power words are the same in rifts if you look at the list of them in the diabolist section. there's exactly one power word for each element.

I'll admit. I didn't check the diabolist section for warlock power words. Nor a different game. I just looked in the conversion book. Where they are not stipulated.

You misread, they're in the warlock section of the palladium fantasy RPG, or in the diabolist section in the conversion book one. don't blame me that palladium lays out it's books poorly

Regardless the rest says it works like ley line walker's magic.

Except for what's required to cast the spell, which is the subject of debate. you are basically saying "Yes, but it works just like regular magic, except for the one part under discussion". Huh?

Well I'm not saying it. The rules said it.

Yes, the rules say that they don't have to do the funny chant and wavy gestures thing but are otherwise similar--so why are you arguing with me?

But the book DOES Say you have to do the funny chant thing. It's just a different chant. Instead of what ever (non stipulated) Magy gobbeldy gook. You're syaing Warlock Gobbly gook. the rest of the rules are the same. I.E. Spell interruption. If they say warlock words or what ever the non stipulated layline walker words they're still doing the words thing.

Can you say the same word over and over again while dodging or parrying a blow? It's called common sense. otherwise, I'm going to refer you to the rule where Summon Storm automatically prevents the Deaths head from flying in a 20 mile range. If you can call common sense, so can I

Magic sections point out that you can disrupt spell casting almost effortlessly. That Mages can't cast in combat at all, and there's even rules for mages having to stop and catch their breath before they can even try again. Something as simple as a fist punch is enough to disrupt the spell. Parrying or dodging in combat, moving, etc. They point out that mages re great in ambush or from the rear lines, concealed and throwing spells from the bushes, but in straight up combat they lose much of their ability straight off the top, as they can't 'cast' and 'fight' at the same time.

I would question the "almost effortlessly. For one, the mysteries of magic book says the attack has to deal at least 8 points or more of damage to distract them (Lil' timmy's rocks don't work no more). It also only says dodging in combat disrupts the spell, parrying does not.

I don't know about mysteries of magic, but the RUE and book of magic say differently. I had to look it up a few days ago when a guy tried to cheat in a Pbp game I was in. One of the books says a punch to the mouth or stomach will do it. No stipulation on damage. They go further to state that being in combat prevents spell casting. That they can't do it at all if they're being attacked all out, or if they're fighting and parrying. Page 190 RUE "Even if the sorcerer is successfully parrying each attack, he is focused on protecting and defending himself" It goes on to say the same is true if he's physically attacking, running, or performing -any physical action-. That to cast, the mage will need to stop, catch his breath (Which it says would take 1 or 2 actions, just to catch your breath) then cast his spell.

yes--and new books trump older material and the Mysteries of magic book came out after the RUE, further buffing mages again.

But that's not a rifts book. Being a newer one, it's stipulated "For the Palladium fantasy world". While many of palladium's systems are universal. Not all are. As a new book if it was universal updates on magic, wouldn't it stipulate so?

That's one of the very few books I don't have. Does it say it's universal in the book, or just for the fantasy setting?(honestly asking, as I don't know)

It's speficially focusing on the wizard and warlock OCC with new and updated rules for both--and the warlock is the focus, and we're discussing the warlock. unless you care to claim that warlocks in rifts operate by different rules.

That said, mages are still well advised to hide behind cover while casting spells, but it's not as trivial as you make it out.

That's the thing. It -really- is. They can't perform any physical action while casting or it interrupts the cast. And just getting popped in the mouth or stomach will do it too even if you aren't bobbing and dodging and weaving around. There' even a paragraph after that, talking about how they can be devastating if they're hiding in the bushes or behind a line of fighters and able to cast. With out those though, they're highly open to things that would stop their casting. It's one of the weaknesses built in to try and make magic on par/balanced with tech, that makes it harder for one mage to just dominate 50 men at arms. the RUE actually buffs mages. In the old rules it was worse. PPE Channeling was developed due to how bad it was in RMB. and then in RuE they make things easier for fast cast low level spells, but a 2 to 12 minute summoning ritual isn't a fast cast spell. So it's under the "Punch um in the mouth, or just fire at them in general to make um duck=spell interruption" Category.

I don't think anyone suggested the Warlock stand out in the open while the deaths head transport could see him spellcasting--just that they would summon the elemental. really--assume that they are doing so with a modicum of common sense and doing it in a cave or basement. or do you really think when I say "The warlock summons an elemental" I mean "He stops what he's doing in the middle of the street and starts chanting?" be serious here. just because we don't say "They hide in the basement while doing it--assume they are doing it intelligently.

I don't know. My point being that if the transport was blowing up the town for 48 melees that being in a basement wouldn't be much good. Assuming 4 or 5 blasts per melee that's what? About 200 to 240 blasts raining down on a 'village'. Just from the main gun. If they're MD blasts they're likely coring straight through what ever buildings they're hitting (Meaning slamming down into the basement) As villages only have a small population, and not every single person in the town is going to own a private home for one person. Chances are every building in the town could be razed.

now I know that assumes you're in a basement. You could hide in the woods or elsewhere. My point that was if you were somewhere (anywhere) in the village, hiding or no and MD blasts are raining down by the 100s (literally) That it's likely that one will hit close enough to you at some point, that it would disrupt your chanting of one word over and over again for 12 minutes.
And that's just assuming the main gun. Taking a glance you need a crew of 8 on the thing. Pilot, Co pilot, and 4 gunners (Assuming just for ease the coms and intel officers aren't on guns.) One of the gunner's is on the main turret. Pilot takes the front two Laser turrets Two rear turrets get a single gunner and the middle two turrets are manned by the last 2 gunners.

So if they come in to 4,000 feet. Assuming low level pilot and gunners (Because I'm not going to assume super heroes flying the thing), lets say they have base minimum APM. 4 each.
That's 4 attacks per melee from the main cannon.
and 4X6= 24 per the laser turrents. Where in you could choose 6 individual targets per melee (1 from main cannon. 5 from the 6 turrents, the rear two being linked)

For a total of 28 minimum attacks per melee.

If the warlock got off his summon in the minimum amount of time, (2 minutes) That's 224 MD attacks raining down on the town. If it goes the full 12 minutes, 1344md attacks raining down on the village. That's attacks mind you. Not damage. Each attack will be 3D6 to 1D6X10.

The village is going to be atomized to the ground and likely glassed.

Well yes, that's why I said the smart thing to do was to keep elementals on hand in rotation. That said, even if they do manage to glass the village completely, that dosn't mean they will survive the experiance, either. Can you say "Draw"

[Slight001]

Once again we find out that air warlocks are gods in disguise... how odd.

On a more functional note... in which books are the cannon references to elemental behavior because their write up is fairly damning...

I would point out Summoning Note Number One of their CB1R write up. Seems kind of cruel to summon them expressly for combat as that would likely get them killed by putting them in harm's way.

[Library Ogre]

Once again we find out that air warlocks are gods in disguise... how odd.

On a more functional note... in which books are the cannon references to elemental behavior because their write up is fairly damning...

The two main sources would be Dragons and Gods and PFRPG Main Book; the first for their general behavior, and the second for their relationship with warlocks.

[Nightmask]

Once again we find out that air warlocks are gods in disguise... how odd.

On a more functional note... in which books are the cannon references to elemental behavior because their write up is fairly damning...

I would point out Summoning Note Number One of their CB1R write up. Seems kind of cruel to summon them expressly for combat as that would likely get them killed by putting them in harm's way.

Except as part of their instructions you can tell them to simply return home if they sense their destruction is imminent, and only the most evil of Warlocks would insist their summoned elementals fight to the death since eventually they WILL learn what a horribly evil betrayer of their bond he is making any elementals he summons or meets a threat to him.

[torjones]

In addition the plane that flies threw hurricanes the are made to do that and has a crew trained to do that are the exception not the rule. In real life fling threw storms is hard task for pilots.

A transport air craft for people can not make the same level of turns as a fighter. The reason is 1 it is not desined to 2 it would kill your passengers. So there is no reason to believe it was made to match the agility of a fighter as you said it is a fling brick sure you can push it fast in a straight line but turning would not be very fast.

I don't know where you get some of these ideas, but it's rather inaccurate. For the pilots of the Hurricane Hunters, the only "extra" training they get is mandatory survival training, and type-rating on the aircraft. Most of the modifications to the WC-130 over other variants are mostly technical instrumentation that the pilots don't normally have anything to do with. While I haven't spoken specifically with any Hurricane Hunter pilots, I've friends who are pilots who regularly fly through storms, it's a normal part of training and unless you get caught in a sudden down-burst at low altitude, it's not really a problem. The reason the C-130 was chosen was due to range and flight time, not due to any specific toughness of the craft. Any twin or quad engined turbo-prop would be acceptable, but I wouldn't really want to fly single engines or jets (I don't really like single engines as it's a single point of failure...) (Jets have a higher chance of flame-out in heavy rain, or at least used to). And please don't ask me to fly a Cessna 172 into a hurricane. I don't care if it would be 'safe,' I like my teeth inside my mouth and really don't want them shaken out of my face by the turbulence...

While you are correct that transport craft for people can't make turns like a fighter, that's more a limitation based upon the airframe than anything else. being significantly larger than a fighter, transports simply don't have the angles of attack or wing loading to support high-G turns. And no, if the passenger could experience such a thing, it would not kill them, unless it was under long duration (several minutes worth of high-G turning).

I agree that fighters and SAMAS and natural fliers would all be able to turn quicker than a death bringer, it's not something that the Palladium Megaversal System addresses, except WAY back in TMNT Mutants in Orbit and Guide to the Universe, both included TMF (Transient Movement Factor).

[flatline]

As I recall from another thread, destroying the "physical" body of the elemental doesn't kill it. They must be in energy form and grounded with a metal rod (or equivalent).

--flatline

[Blue_Lion]

In addition the plane that flies threw hurricanes the are made to do that and has a crew trained to do that are the exception not the rule. In real life fling threw storms is hard task for pilots.

A transport air craft for people can not make the same level of turns as a fighter. The reason is 1 it is not desined to 2 it would kill your passengers. So there is no reason to believe it was made to match the agility of a fighter as you said it is a fling brick sure you can push it fast in a straight line but turning would not be very fast.

I don't know where you get some of these ideas, but it's rather inaccurate. For the pilots of the Hurricane Hunters, the only "extra" training they get is mandatory survival training, and type-rating on the aircraft. Most of the modifications to the WC-130 over other variants are mostly technical instrumentation that the pilots don't normally have anything to do with. While I haven't spoken specifically with any Hurricane Hunter pilots, I've friends who are pilots who regularly fly through storms, it's a normal part of training and unless you get caught in a sudden down-burst at low altitude, it's not really a problem. The reason the C-130 was chosen was due to range and flight time, not due to any specific toughness of the craft. Any twin or quad engined turbo-prop would be acceptable, but I wouldn't really want to fly single engines or jets (I don't really like single engines as it's a single point of failure...) (Jets have a higher chance of flame-out in heavy rain, or at least used to). And please don't ask me to fly a Cessna 172 into a hurricane. I don't care if it would be 'safe,' I like my teeth inside my mouth and really don't want them shaken out of my face by the turbulence...

While you are correct that transport craft for people can't make turns like a fighter, that's more a limitation based upon the airframe than anything else. being significantly larger than a fighter, transports simply don't have the angles of attack or wing loading to support high-G turns. And no, if the passenger could experience such a thing, it would not kill them, unless it was under long duration (several minutes worth of high-G turning).

I agree that fighters and SAMAS and natural fliers would all be able to turn quicker than a death bringer, it's not something that the Palladium Megaversal System addresses, except WAY back in TMNT Mutants in Orbit and Guide to the Universe, both included TMF (Transient Movement Factor).

The reason I said it is likely to kill the passengers is not the high gs but the likely secondary effects. People not secured properly to there seats or gear coming loose. That is where injuries and death would happen in a transport. With a transport the size of death heads the number of troops transported you would have problems with that. The high speed turns would increase the number of fatalities from such instances. Without doing such maneuvers you already have people in our military dying from things like that. When I was in Kosovo in the early 2000 there was some one that fell out of a black hawk that was transporting him when the helicopter hit turbulence.


Most pilots I know consider any storm they are not fling over hazardous. The prefer to be over the top of a storm than in it. (as for saying that it was designed for it is performing a task that most pilots would not want to do fly threw storms. So I thought it is reasonable that they would have some modifications for the task but I never did research on it.) And the pilot type training would likely include training for fling threw hurricanes typically staring as copilot then pilot when more experienced would it not?

Giving the fact that the storm in this case is magical in nature could it not always have the problems that are normally only present at low attitude. (heck the affects on ground craft are greater than thunder or rain storms have on such things.)

But I am realy getting off the OP topic now.

It seams that there are several way for the Empire to deal with such a threat from a loan transport blasting its towns once they are aware of such threats.

By the book the spell summon and control storms can stop air travel.
Warlock air elemental spells.

Possibility of equipping troops such as tengo with invisible and fly in front of it while protected by magic to board or attack it.
Dragons could do the same thing can also go invisible and teleport to the target and be immune to its attacks.
Possibly of teleporting in troops to suicide attack swarm it.
Ninja infiltration when it resupplies/repairs(guided by psionic or magical abilities of other to find the spot it lands.


Elementals may also be possible.
Summoning Oni- to create storms.


Millennium tree powers could also be helpful.
Magical items may be available to be used.

Aid from near by high tech nation or hiring tech ninja to stop it.

[CastorJack]

I am surprised no one has mentioned the greatest weapon against flying enemies...walls.
That's right I said walls. My personal favorite is Energy Field (lvl 4 spell) which can be cast up to 60 ft away. It states in the spell that it can be a semi-transparent bubble or wall (i choose wall, narrow end towards enemy) and has 60 M.D.C. (x2 ley lines, x3 nexus). Since it is stated as "placed" anywhere within range it stands to reason it rests in a fixed location designated by the mage. I seem to remember an FAQ about Energy Field being unable to move but can't for the moment remember where it was.

Mage would cast Invisibility, flying spell of choice, and move to a suitable altitude. Once there, they would wait for their moment then cast Energy Field. Perhaps multiple times if need be (at 10 P.P.E. each and one action each as of RUE). Striking the wall would be like hitting a telephone pole in your truck. Sure you would survive, but oh man the damage. 1d4 S.D.C. to all crew per 20 mph or speed beyond 50. So 1D4x17 at full speed through the transports M.D.C. to all crew. Not to mention a 1-30% chance of Stun plus 5% per 10 mph above 50, so 205% in this case. Stun is no attacks, -9 to strike, parry, and dodge for 1D4 melee rounds...Call me crazy but I think their crashing.

Now I know this relies on certain factors, but it isn't all that hard to set up and the spells involved are actually fairly common. Swap Energy Field for Invisible Wall, Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, or Ten Foot Ball of Ice if you prefer. Damage to the transport would not be insignificant either. But the main advantage here is crash and stun. Like a car on the freeway getting hit by a 2x4. Only we are talking much greater larger objects, both of which are M.D.C.

Physics Note: Even if the other walls are not fixed in place, hitting a 24x24x12 ft Wall of Stone at 400 MPH would make for a bad day. Speed kills...

[torjones]

The reason I said it is likely to kill the passengers is not the high gs but the likely secondary effects. People not secured properly to there seats or gear coming loose. That is where injuries and death would happen in a transport. With a transport the size of death heads the number of troops transported you would have problems with that. The high speed turns would increase the number of fatalities from such instances. Without doing such maneuvers you already have people in our military dying from things like that. When I was in Kosovo in the early 2000 there was some one that fell out of a black hawk that was transporting him when the helicopter hit turbulence.

Most pilots I know consider any storm they are not fling over hazardous. The prefer to be over the top of a storm than in it. (as for saying that it was designed for it is performing a task that most pilots would not want to do fly threw storms. So I thought it is reasonable that they would have some modifications for the task but I never did research on it.) And the pilot type training would likely include training for fling threw hurricanes typically staring as copilot then pilot when more experienced would it not?

Ok, in this situation, where the raiders are an unknown quantity, how well do they secure their cargo? How much cargo are they carrying? things of that nature, sure, if they are also carrying passengers, I could see that being a potential cause for concern. But I don't think Raiders planning on attacking a town for some reason, are going to be carrying a bunch of passengers or cargo. If I was a raider, it would be because I was planning on actually raiding someone for whatever resources they had that I could take away from them. My cargo would be empty so I could haul more stuff away with me. I wouldn't be bringing lots of people along I didn't need because they would only wind up taking up cargo space. I might have a couple people extra just to help lift and carry faster, but not a significant number of people.

Not only that, but as I am not CS Military, my Death Bringer likely didn't come with all of the power armors and troops and what not that a Death Bringer can carry...

Sure, most pilots would prefer to be above the storm. Most soldiers would prefer not getting shot at. No chance of turbulence. No chance of hail. No chance of lightning strikes. Military craft are all protected against lightning strikes, and most biz-jet and commercial aircraft are as well these days. Not only that, but this is an MDC craft we are referring to, so hail and the like are not going to hurt the craft at all. Only problem the Death Bringer is going to have is the high winds. At tree-top levels this would be problematic, even up to a thousand feet or so, depending on terrain. At a half mile up? At a mile up? The winds are going to be much more predictable and easier to manage. That aside, the spell says it makes flying impossible, so flying is impossible. Flee the area or be forced into a crash would be my ruling as a GM since the Death Bringer APC doesn't have the option of climbing over the storm...

As to the type training, the research I've done indicates it as no different than type training for any other aircraft, nothing specific for flying through heavy storms or hurricanes specifically. As mentioned before, I can't say with 100% certainty, as I've never had the opportunity to chat with an actual Hurricane Hunter, but that's what I've read has indicated. I will also admit that most of the pilots I hang out with from time to time are former military, and likely a little bit on the crazy side, so their perspective is likely different than a civilian pilot or a commercial pilot.

As to the guy in kosovo who fell out of a blackhawk... why was the door left open? If he was next to the door, why didn't he have a seatbelt or safety line attached? It was an accident, and there were likely policies and procedures in place to prevent it that were ignored or disregarded. I'm sorry if that sounds cold or heartless, but in many cases, that's the truth of the matter.

Getting back on topic... Yeah, I think a hurricane would effect the Death Bringer. I don't think it would cause a fatal crash, but I don't think that the APC could fly safely in those kinds of conditions due to weight, speed, altitude, size, and so on. A Sky Lifter would likely be a different story, if it weren't for the spell itself saying that flying was impossible... If one were to try flying a Fire Storm through a hurricane, I doubt it would even care about the storm...

I will also say that i do like the idea to use Walls of various kinds, like Energy Field or other invisible type walls so that the pilot doesn't know to avoid them...

[spatulaodoom]

Scenario: Death Bringer APC attacks New Empire village and kills everyone but a witness.

New Empire's response:
-Send the Ninjas to infiltrate various pirate havens and find out what people know about this group of tech pirates and their very visible vehicle. Or more likely just tap the resources already in place.
-Ask their Republic/Ichto/Takamatsu diplomatic envoys if they know anything about it (track it with long range radar?).
-Divine via magic/pionics/Millenium Tree the location of the vehicle that levelled the village.

Once the vehicle is located the Empire sends in an appropriate strike team. Most sensibly they'd attack the vehicle from within during a period when it's landed for resupply/selling loot/taking a ****/sleeping/letting the engines cool off/ etc since the guns are on the outside and the squishy crew are on the inside. On the move is also possible with higher level teleportation (arguably lower level mystic portal depending on how you determine whether inside a large moving vehicle is still a single location or not). Ley line walker or other teleport capable sorceror plus some Samurai with MD capable swords, Demon Quellers, Monks, Ninja, hatchling/small dragons etc. Once things are in close combat the enemy is basically boned with all the martial arts and special hand to hand skill shenanigans going on. Doesn't matter if you, surprise, have a full borg aboard, that just means they might break a sweat.

Once vehicle is cleared they chop out the nuclear engine and melt the rest to scrap. Maybe leave the death's head on front intact as a warning.

The New Empire has dealt with high tech bandits like the Horune pirates before, so they certainly have an idea of how to go about this.

[Blue_Lion]

The reason I said it is likely to kill the passengers is not the high gs but the likely secondary effects. People not secured properly to there seats or gear coming loose. That is where injuries and death would happen in a transport. With a transport the size of death heads the number of troops transported you would have problems with that. The high speed turns would increase the number of fatalities from such instances. Without doing such maneuvers you already have people in our military dying from things like that. When I was in Kosovo in the early 2000 there was some one that fell out of a black hawk that was transporting him when the helicopter hit turbulence.

Most pilots I know consider any storm they are not fling over hazardous. The prefer to be over the top of a storm than in it. (as for saying that it was designed for it is performing a task that most pilots would not want to do fly threw storms. So I thought it is reasonable that they would have some modifications for the task but I never did research on it.) And the pilot type training would likely include training for fling threw hurricanes typically staring as copilot then pilot when more experienced would it not?

Ok, in this situation, where the raiders are an unknown quantity, how well do they secure their cargo? How much cargo are they carrying? things of that nature, sure, if they are also carrying passengers, I could see that being a potential cause for concern. But I don't think Raiders planning on attacking a town for some reason, are going to be carrying a bunch of passengers or cargo. If I was a raider, it would be because I was planning on actually raiding someone for whatever resources they had that I could take away from them. My cargo would be empty so I could haul more stuff away with me. I wouldn't be bringing lots of people along I didn't need because they would only wind up taking up cargo space. I might have a couple people extra just to help lift and carry faster, but not a significant number of people.

Not only that, but as I am not CS Military, my Death Bringer likely didn't come with all of the power armors and troops and what not that a Death Bringer can carry...

Sure, most pilots would prefer to be above the storm. Most soldiers would prefer not getting shot at. No chance of turbulence. No chance of hail. No chance of lightning strikes. Military craft are all protected against lightning strikes, and most biz-jet and commercial aircraft are as well these days. Not only that, but this is an MDC craft we are referring to, so hail and the like are not going to hurt the craft at all. Only problem the Death Bringer is going to have is the high winds. At tree-top levels this would be problematic, even up to a thousand feet or so, depending on terrain. At a half mile up? At a mile up? The winds are going to be much more predictable and easier to manage. That aside, the spell says it makes flying impossible, so flying is impossible. Flee the area or be forced into a crash would be my ruling as a GM since the Death Bringer APC doesn't have the option of climbing over the storm...

As to the type training, the research I've done indicates it as no different than type training for any other aircraft, nothing specific for flying through heavy storms or hurricanes specifically. As mentioned before, I can't say with 100% certainty, as I've never had the opportunity to chat with an actual Hurricane Hunter, but that's what I've read has indicated. I will also admit that most of the pilots I hang out with from time to time are former military, and likely a little bit on the crazy side, so their perspective is likely different than a civilian pilot or a commercial pilot.

As to the guy in kosovo who fell out of a blackhawk... why was the door left open? If he was next to the door, why didn't he have a seatbelt or safety line attached? It was an accident, and there were likely policies and procedures in place to prevent it that were ignored or disregarded. I'm sorry if that sounds cold or heartless, but in many cases, that's the truth of the matter.

Getting back on topic... Yeah, I think a hurricane would effect the Death Bringer. I don't think it would cause a fatal crash, but I don't think that the APC could fly safely in those kinds of conditions due to weight, speed, altitude, size, and so on. A Sky Lifter would likely be a different story, if it weren't for the spell itself saying that flying was impossible... If one were to try flying a Fire Storm through a hurricane, I doubt it would even care about the storm...

I will also say that i do like the idea to use Walls of various kinds, like Energy Field or other invisible type walls so that the pilot doesn't know to avoid them...

I was not on the black hawk but as I understand it they where doing missions where they where landing hoping out securing the area, perform the local task hop back on fly to the next spot and do the same. Do not know about the door but they where all suppose to be belted in. Despite being required to be belted in he was not.

Back on topic. The invisible wall would be nasty. Wonder if they could use a rift or swallowing rift to trap it some other plane.