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Mouser13 wrote:

Axelmania wrote:In 2nd edition each of the individual PCCs all have a note not allowing them to have multiple OCCs. I think the Noble also has a note about them being allowed. None of the other ones comment on it. In first edition I think most of the magic classes talked about the option, not sure if the men-at-arms did though.

THe cutting room floor as the PFRPG rules for multiple OCC.

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

Yes, an it is reprinted in the High Seas adventure.
Neither of those rules though allows one of the P.C.C.s to take a second class...
...because all of the P.C.C.s in question explicitly say that they are unable to use the multiple OCC rule.

eliakon wrote:Not according to the rules.
According to the rules only witches get pacts since it is an OCC ability of that OCC.
A GM can make a house rule sure...but until such time as there is an official statement changing things, getting a witch pact with out being a witch is Not A Thing.

I see nothing in the rules preventing a non-witch from getting a witch pact. It's an ability of the OCC, but that doesn't mean it's exclusive to the OCC, any more than psychic powers are exclusive to PCCs. Or non-Palladins from learning Hand to Hand Palladin (which the 2nd edition equates with Martial Arts). There is a specific prohibition in 2e against anyone but a Longbowman or Ranger learning to use a long bow... but no such prohibition on a non-witch getting a witch pact.

Mark Hall wrote:

eliakon wrote:Not according to the rules.
According to the rules only witches get pacts since it is an OCC ability of that OCC.
A GM can make a house rule sure...but until such time as there is an official statement changing things, getting a witch pact with out being a witch is Not A Thing.

I see nothing in the rules preventing a non-witch from getting a witch pact. It's an ability of the OCC, but that doesn't mean it's exclusive to the OCC, any more than psychic powers are exclusive to PCCs. Or non-Palladins from learning Hand to Hand Palladin (which the 2nd edition equates with Martial Arts). There is a specific prohibition in 2e against anyone but a Longbowman or Ranger learning to use a long bow... but no such prohibition on a non-witch getting a witch pact.

Put it another way...
where does it say that anyone can get a pact?
Every instance of 'grants pact' is 'to witches'
Its like saying that anyone can pray for a miracle even if they aren't a priest....
Since the only canon location for a pact is the witch, or saying that something can make witches, and it is the defining characteristic of being a witch.....how can you get a pact an not be a witch?

Be a shifter. They get pacts and aren't witches. Be a Soul Harvester. They get pacts and aren't explicitly called witches. Be a Disciple of an Old One; they get pacts and aren't witches. Heck, being a vampire, especially a master vampire, isn't too dissimilar on a conceptual level from being a very specific type of witch.

However, you're conflating two things... the Witch OCC and the status of witch. Since the status of "witch" is, in context, "someone who has a pact", getting a pact makes one a witch. However, it does not necessarily make one the Witch OCC. Becoming a witch-as-status does not necessitate becoming a witch-as-class.

Mark Hall wrote:Be a shifter. They get pacts and aren't witches. Be a Soul Harvester. They get pacts and aren't explicitly called witches. Be a Disciple of an Old One; they get pacts and aren't witches. Heck, being a vampire, especially a master vampire, isn't too dissimilar on a conceptual level from being a very specific type of witch.

However, you're conflating two things... the Witch OCC and the status of witch. Since the status of "witch" is, in context, "someone who has a pact", getting a pact makes one a witch. However, it does not necessarily make one the Witch OCC. Becoming a witch-as-status does not necessitate becoming a witch-as-class.

Shifters don't get pacts though
Nor do Soul Harvesters
Nor do Vampires
And the Disciple of an Old One is labeled "Minotaur Witch"
Everything that gets a pact has been labled as a witch. Everything that offers a pact makes a witch.
Pacts are, in palladium one of the defining characteristics of witchery. It is like trying to claim that just anyone can simply take and use a part of an OCC just because they want to.

And yes, when the game uses Witch as an OCC, then it is an OCC. This is like trying to claim that you can be a Shifter but not have the OCC, or that anyone can simply make TW devices if they take the skill and don't need to be TW (or other class that says they can make TW devices), or that just anyone can cast spells if they just read a spell book.....
You have to have an OCC to do the abilities of an OCC

<edit> there is nothing stopping a GM from making a house rule to allow this stuff of course. But RAW I am not aware of any precedent to allow it, and plenty of precedent to suggest its not allowed.

For the most part, I agree... one has to learn to be a TW to be a TW. But, one doesn't have to be a PCC to be a psychic. Or even be a Glitter Boy OCC to pilot a Glitter Boy. You can get all sorts of bionics and cybernetics without changing into a 'Borg OCC, and you don't have to be an alchemist to use magic items. A witch pact isn't a thing that's earned. You don't study for it. You don't have to learn to use it... especially in the case of a gift of power. You say, "My Dear Mephistopheles, I will gladly trade you my first born child if you will give me magic." And Mephistopheles takes your child and gives you magic.

What you are essentially arguing is that, if a psi-mystic goes to Sahtalus, High Lord of Dyval, and says "I will slay a thousand people in your name, give you my first six children, and devote my life and soul to your cause in exchange for a Gift of Magic", Sahtalus is going to have to say "Well, you see, I can't make that deal. You're a psi-mystic, you see, and you can't change classes and I can't give you magic powers without making you a witch, which requires you to change classes... soooo... you wanna a Buick, maybe? Or a condo? I got a nice condo you can timeshare." By the logic you are espousing, the High Lord of Dyval CANNOT give that person a witch pact, because the CHARACTER CLASS used to describe them says "You can't switch OCCs."

That's ridiculous.

Mark Hall wrote:For the most part, I agree... one has to learn to be a TW to be a TW. But, one doesn't have to be a PCC to be a psychic. Or even be a Glitter Boy OCC to pilot a Glitter Boy. You can get all sorts of bionics and cybernetics without changing into a 'Borg OCC, and you don't have to be an alchemist to use magic items. A witch pact isn't a thing that's earned. You don't study for it. You don't have to learn to use it... especially in the case of a gift of power. You say, "My Dear Mephistopheles, I will gladly trade you my first born child if you will give me magic." And Mephistopheles takes your child and gives you magic.

I would say though that saying a pact is like a spell is like saying an apple is an orange
Spell casting is a class feature, you have to be a spell caster to cast...but any kind of caster can cast spells (of some sort)
Psioncis is a class feature, you have to be a psychic to use them. But you can be any kind of psychic
And yes, to take RCE Glitter Boy you do have to be a Glitterboy Pilot, its OCC restricted
If you get more than two bionics, then yes you are a borg
If you get a juicier bio-comp you ARE a juicer
If you get 7 tattoos you ARE a T-Man
If you get a pact, you are a witch.

Mark Hall wrote:What you are essentially arguing is that, if a psi-mystic goes to Sahtalus, High Lord of Dyval, and says "I will slay a thousand people in your name, give you my first six children, and devote my life and soul to your cause in exchange for a Gift of Magic", Sahtalus is going to have to say "Well, you see, I can't make that deal. You're a psi-mystic, you see, and you can't change classes and I can't give you magic powers without making you a witch, which requires you to change classes... soooo... you wanna a Buick, maybe? Or a condo? I got a nice condo you can timeshare." By the logic you are espousing, the High Lord of Dyval CANNOT give that person a witch pact, because the CHARACTER CLASS used to describe them says "You can't switch OCCs."

That's ridiculous.

By the rules...yes he can't do it. By the rules not everything can get a pact grafted on to them. And by the rules a psi-mystic is one of those beings.
Now a GM can make a house rule to change the rules if they don't like them. But the rules as written clearly delineate who can and who can not get a pact, and for some reason some psychics are on that 'can not' list.

eliakon wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:What you are essentially arguing is that, if a psi-mystic goes to Sahtalus, High Lord of Dyval, and says "I will slay a thousand people in your name, give you my first six children, and devote my life and soul to your cause in exchange for a Gift of Magic", Sahtalus is going to have to say "Well, you see, I can't make that deal. You're a psi-mystic, you see, and you can't change classes and I can't give you magic powers without making you a witch, which requires you to change classes... soooo... you wanna a Buick, maybe? Or a condo? I got a nice condo you can timeshare." By the logic you are espousing, the High Lord of Dyval CANNOT give that person a witch pact, because the CHARACTER CLASS used to describe them says "You can't switch OCCs."

That's ridiculous.

By the rules...yes he can't do it. By the rules not everything can get a pact grafted on to them. And by the rules a psi-mystic is one of those beings.
Now a GM can make a house rule to change the rules if they don't like them. But the rules as written clearly delineate who can and who can not get a pact, and for some reason some psychics are on that 'can not' list.

Mark is 100% correct here and this proves to highlight that game designers aren't always right. Stating a PC can NEVER do something is an erroneous statement (for those of you who like to clamor about fallacies, it's one of omniscience). For game designers to assume THEY know their product is best used or played is an incorrect assumption. The players and GMs playing the game often take the game into uncharted, better places, and that's just the nature of the beast; while there are possibly millions of players, there are only a handful of designers. There's no way they are omniscient enough to foresee every possibility, nor can they fathom all the possible ways to have fun with the game. This is why you have to embrace the golden rule and make the game make sense for you.

eliakon wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:What you are essentially arguing is that, if a psi-mystic goes to Sahtalus, High Lord of Dyval, and says "I will slay a thousand people in your name, give you my first six children, and devote my life and soul to your cause in exchange for a Gift of Magic", Sahtalus is going to have to say "Well, you see, I can't make that deal. You're a psi-mystic, you see, and you can't change classes and I can't give you magic powers without making you a witch, which requires you to change classes... soooo... you wanna a Buick, maybe? Or a condo? I got a nice condo you can timeshare." By the logic you are espousing, the High Lord of Dyval CANNOT give that person a witch pact, because the CHARACTER CLASS used to describe them says "You can't switch OCCs."

That's ridiculous.

By the rules...yes he can't do it. By the rules not everything can get a pact grafted on to them. And by the rules a psi-mystic is one of those beings.
Now a GM can make a house rule to change the rules if they don't like them. But the rules as written clearly delineate who can and who can not get a pact, and for some reason some psychics are on that 'can not' list.

I'd say that if the rules forbid Mystics changing OCCs, then such a pact could be rejected for any number of in-game reasons, ranging from simple scorn of Mystics to the soul already being claimed to any number of other things.
You don't have to use the game rules in-game, and as a rule that's not how it ever works.

When you're in combat, the in-game explanation of a missed shot is never "You rolled a one, so you missed." It's something that can't be role-played out of, because it's a hard rule, but that doesn't mean that there's no in-game explanation for it.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I'd say that if the rules forbid Mystics changing OCCs, then such a pact could be rejected for any number of in-game reasons, ranging from simple scorn of Mystics to the soul already being claimed to any number of other things.
You don't have to use the game rules in-game, and as a rule that's not how it ever works.

When you're in combat, the in-game explanation of a missed shot is never "You rolled a one, so you missed." It's something that can't be role-played out of, because it's a hard rule, but that doesn't mean that there's no in-game explanation for it.

You are 100% correct. However, the rules don't always make "story sense". If Mephisto wants to do something, he pretty much can. He doesn't consult a rulebook. Some may call this GM fiat, I just call it an exception to the rule. Exceptions happen all the time. PCs should be the exception to the rule; it's why they face the dragon, rescue the princess, etc. If they weren't exceptional they'd be tending the fields and hearing stories about the other exceptional people.

So, a run-of-the-mill PsiMystic shouldn't be able to change classes, no problem here. However, if a game situation comes up where a PC PsiMystic can change his class, why not just run with it?

As was said....If the GM wants to invoke Rule Zero to make a house rule to make something happen in their game that is totally their business. That is what Rule Zero is there for after all.
But the game, as written right now, does not allow this particular thing. If a GM decides that they don't like that they can change it, but that doesn't change that as written its not possible.

eliakon wrote:But the game, as written right now, does not allow this particular thing. If a GM decides that they don't like that they can change it, but that doesn't change that as written its not possible.

Incorrect. There is no precedent for it, but it is not forbidden.

Mark Hall wrote:Incorrect. There is no precedent for it, but it is not forbidden.

Well stated.

Asper the RAW canon PCC's (i.e.: master psychics) cannot change their class within the PF2 rules. And since as of RUE rifts uses the same changing class rules, PCC's (even the ones mislabled as OCCs and RCCs) cannot change their class ether.

However the in the 1st rule of roleplaying games it says that the 'GM is always right'. (with the 2nd rule being "If the GM is wrong see rule number 1.")

This means that the GM can modify her or his house rules as they see fit.

So while Yes, the rules as written do not allow PCC's to change class. A GM can change that rule for his or her game. Said changes do not affect what Is Canon.

So GMs can change rules they think are stupid or broken or import rules from the other settings, or make up rules out of whole clothe, for their game. But arguing that the house rule should be "The Canon" is not in the cards.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Asper the RAW canon PCC's (i.e.: master psychics) cannot change their class within the PF2 rules. And since as of RUE rifts uses the same changing class rules, PCC's (even the ones mislabled as OCCs and RCCs) cannot change their class ether.

However the in the 1st rule of roleplaying games it says that the 'GM is always right'. (with the 2nd rule being "If the GM is wrong see rule number 1.")

This means that the GM can modify her or his house rules as they see fit.

So while Yes, the rules as written do not allow PCC's to change class. A GM can change that rule for his or her game. Said changes do not affect what Is Canon.

So GMs can change rules they think are stupid or broken or import rules from the other settings, or make up rules out of whole clothe, for their game. But arguing that the house rule should be "The Canon" is not in the cards.

This is all understood. IMO, it's bad form to, repeatedly, respond to a posts where no one is asking if an idea adheres to canon or not with clarion calls of "that's not allowed by canon".

Doing as drewkitty just did is the right way to do this (informing what the book says and then adding more). This is good in case new players are reading this.

Arguing that an idea doesn't adhere to RAW or canon is a fruitless endeavor.

Mark Hall wrote:

eliakon wrote:But the game, as written right now, does not allow this particular thing. If a GM decides that they don't like that they can change it, but that doesn't change that as written its not possible.

Incorrect. There is no precedent for it, but it is not forbidden.

Errr.
It is forbidden. That "may not change class" thing explicitly says "may not change class to witch"
Since as of right now only a Witch can have a pact then yes, it is forbidden.
If a rule comes out later that says anyone can have a pact, or a rule comes out that says that Psi-Mystics can change class then it would no longer be forbidden. But as of right now it is explicitly forbidden.

barna10 wrote:Have you ever seen a mechanic, or worked one up yourself, for Mystics to gain more spells than the ones they gain per level?

This is the scenario I am specifically addressing, what about Mystics that don't level up? Say one becomes a hermit and communes with nature on the top of a mountain for 50 years. He wouldn't gain experience, but he would most likely get wiser and should understand himself, nature, and magic better. Why shouldn't this guy gain more spells during his 50 years?

IMO opinion there needs to be some way for Mystics to acquire spells that doesn't require them to level up.

[EDIT] Hmmm, looking at Born Mystic, "When he is ready to find or make his place by exploring it as an adventurer, the character enters into a meditative trance that lasts six days. At the end of that period, the character intuitively knows how to cast seven specific spells"

Mystic in RUE, "Then, when he is ready to find or make his place in the world. the Mystic enters into six days of meditation. At the end of the sixth day, he somehow knows how to cast eight specific spells."

Then when leveling up, they only gain 2 spells, but maybe this is because they aren't taking the needed time-out to gain more? (Hypothesizing, not asking)

I guess it comes to why can't they simply spend another 6 days and get more spells?

In Rifter #49 if you are a born and raised citizen of Lazlo, and a mystic, you automatically gain a small selection of additional spells not available to you before.

In Rifter #45, specifically regarding Mystic Knights, depending on the House you choose you may gain some additional spells.

Also in a rifter there is an Elf Mystic who has discovered how Mystics can "learn" spells in the same fashion as non-mystic spell casters, though it takes months or years to learn a single spell (it is something like 2D6 weeks per level of the spell, dont have the rifter here, cant say for sure).

Since the above are Rifter material they are optional, and not, strictly speaking, canon. However should they be allowed for your game more power to you (literally and figuratively speaking).

13eowulf wrote:

barna10 wrote:Have you ever seen a mechanic, or worked one up yourself, for Mystics to gain more spells than the ones they gain per level?

This is the scenario I am specifically addressing, what about Mystics that don't level up? Say one becomes a hermit and communes with nature on the top of a mountain for 50 years. He wouldn't gain experience, but he would most likely get wiser and should understand himself, nature, and magic better. Why shouldn't this guy gain more spells during his 50 years?

IMO opinion there needs to be some way for Mystics to acquire spells that doesn't require them to level up.

[EDIT] Hmmm, looking at Born Mystic, "When he is ready to find or make his place by exploring it as an adventurer, the character enters into a meditative trance that lasts six days. At the end of that period, the character intuitively knows how to cast seven specific spells"

Mystic in RUE, "Then, when he is ready to find or make his place in the world. the Mystic enters into six days of meditation. At the end of the sixth day, he somehow knows how to cast eight specific spells."

Then when leveling up, they only gain 2 spells, but maybe this is because they aren't taking the needed time-out to gain more? (Hypothesizing, not asking)

I guess it comes to why can't they simply spend another 6 days and get more spells?

In Rifter #49 if you are a born and raised citizen of Lazlo, and a mystic, you automatically gain a small selection of additional spells not available to you before.

In Rifter #45, specifically regarding Mystic Knights, depending on the House you choose you may gain some additional spells.

Also in a rifter there is an Elf Mystic who has discovered how Mystics can "learn" spells in the same fashion as non-mystic spell casters, though it takes months or years to learn a single spell (it is something like 2D6 weeks per level of the spell, dont have the rifter here, cant say for sure).

Since the above are Rifter material they are optional, and not, strictly speaking, canon. However should they be allowed for your game more power to you (literally and figuratively speaking).

Thanks for those! If you could figure out the reference for the Elf that'd be awesome!

Ultimate came out after Palladium Fantasy so I think psychic classes being OCCs is the most recent ruling. I'm not going to limit all psychics by PF's class-specific rules. If you want to play a Mind Mage OCC who multi-classes with others, you'd just have to use the Pucara Mind Mage from Rifts South America or the 1st edition Palladium RPG mind mage who was free (though hesitant) to multi-class with other mage classes.

Axelmania wrote:Ultimate came out after Palladium Fantasy so I think psychic classes being OCCs is the most recent ruling. I'm not going to limit all psychics by PF's class-specific rules. If you want to play a Mind Mage OCC who multi-classes with others, you'd just have to use the Pucara Mind Mage from Rifts South America or the 1st edition Palladium RPG mind mage who was free (though hesitant) to multi-class with other mage classes.

Or perhaps each game uses its own rules....
Especially since each class in PF has its own name (Mystic/Psi-Mystic, Mind Mage, Psi-healer, etc)
Which doesn't rule out a Mystic being an OCC and a Psi-Mystic being a P.C.C. (it also doesn't rule out a Mystic also being a P.C.C. nor does it rule out a Mystic being able to class change, even though Psi-Mystic's can't)
Close counts in horse shoes, hand grenades, and nuclear war....this is none of the above.

Mystics are cooler than Psi-Mystics since they can meditate and go invisible, and are cooler than those guys in Mystic Russia since they can get a super psionic.

Born Msytics (Mystic Russia) can select a Super Psionic at first level

Axelmania wrote:Ultimate came out after Palladium Fantasy so I think psychic classes being OCCs is the most recent ruling. I'm not going to limit all psychics by PF's class-specific rules. If you want to play a Mind Mage OCC who multi-classes with others, you'd just have to use the Pucara Mind Mage from Rifts South America or the 1st edition Palladium RPG mind mage who was free (though hesitant) to multi-class with other mage classes.

That PCCs are officially mislabeled as POCCs in rifts by the style filter used on RUE, that is not disputed. It is that they are still a part of a class of CC's (those consisting of all master psi's) that are not allowed to change their class by the rules set that RUE says to use when considering changing a class of a char.
In other words I am not talking about class specific rules, I am talking about rules that cover All master psi's within the changing class rules set, within another setting's canon rules.

The reason that the rule that PCC's cannot change class is in each and every PCC in the PF setting is to be very explicit in reminding that PCC are different other CC's and that the very nature of the char is why the char is a PCC, not just being taught a set of skills that make of job.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Axelmania wrote:Ultimate came out after Palladium Fantasy so I think psychic classes being OCCs is the most recent ruling. I'm not going to limit all psychics by PF's class-specific rules. If you want to play a Mind Mage OCC who multi-classes with others, you'd just have to use the Pucara Mind Mage from Rifts South America or the 1st edition Palladium RPG mind mage who was free (though hesitant) to multi-class with other mage classes.

That PCCs are officially mislabeled as POCCs in rifts by the style filter used on RUE, that is not disputed. It is that they are still a part of a class of CC's (those consisting of all master psi's) that are not allowed to change their class by the rules set that RUE says to use when considering changing a class of a char.
In other words I am not talking about class specific rules, I am talking about rules that cover All master psi's within the changing class rules set, within another setting's canon rules.

The reason that the rule that PCC's cannot change class is in each and every PCC in the PF setting is to be very explicit in reminding that PCC are different other CC's and that the very nature of the char is why the char is a PCC, not just being taught a set of skills that make of job.

Lets not get this one even more off track by resurrecting the arguments on 'filters' and PCCs or "official errors" and other _anon-wars
And lets instead try to keep at least in the general vicinity of being locked into mystics (and the various kinds of mystics, pseudo-mystics and the like) and the rules that we know pertain to them....
....if we get into arguing on who's personal interpretation of intent it always turns into a circular argument, flames out and gets locked.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Axelmania wrote:Ultimate came out after Palladium Fantasy so I think psychic classes being OCCs is the most recent ruling. I'm not going to limit all psychics by PF's class-specific rules. If you want to play a Mind Mage OCC who multi-classes with others, you'd just have to use the Pucara Mind Mage from Rifts South America or the 1st edition Palladium RPG mind mage who was free (though hesitant) to multi-class with other mage classes.

That PCCs are officially mislabeled as POCCs in rifts by the style filter used on RUE, that is not disputed. It is that they are still a part of a class of CC's (those consisting of all master psi's) that are not allowed to change their class by the rules set that RUE says to use when considering changing a class of a char.
In other words I am not talking about class specific rules, I am talking about rules that cover All master psi's within the changing class rules set, within another setting's canon rules.

The reason that the rule that PCC's cannot change class is in each and every PCC in the PF setting is to be very explicit in reminding that PCC are different other CC's and that the very nature of the char is why the char is a PCC, not just being taught a set of skills that make of job.

Sorry, this is inaccurate. They are listed differently in different books, there is no standard. In Psyscape they are listed as mutants and some as R.C.C.s. Also, the Psi-Stalker is shown to be allowed to also take a class (Psi-Slinger in Rifts New West). On page 155 of RUE it states "They are also fascinated with Cyber­Knights and often join or assist them on their crusades, although most Psi-Stalkers are too undisciplined to become one" indicating some become CyberKnights.

EDIT: Described in the Race Restrictions section of Psi-Ghosts: "These crafty mutants have been known to occasionally adopt a Major or Master Psychic into their fold and train him/her as a Psi-Ghost."

Then there is the ambiguous definition of the Sea Inquisitor which mentions that most of them are psychics or Mystics prior to becoming (ie changing class) a Sea Inquisitor.

So, by RAW, Master Psychics changing class is allowed. Some classes may not be able to (ie PFRPG psychics), but this does not apply to ALL Master Psychics.

Master Psi classes (PCCs) include both psionic CCs which can be taken by all psi capable races and psionic racial CCs that are limited in scope of who can have the CC by genetics, ether racial limiter or family/clan limiter.

I did point out that ALL PCC's in PF2 are through specific text statements are forbidden from changing their class. This is why I keep pointing out that the PF2 changing class rules do not include/cover PCCs.

That outside of Rifts, in all settings that use CCs, All master psychics are PCC's. It is just in Rifts where PB has been with no rhyme or reason labeling master psychics as all three CC labels. Thus, in my first post in this topic on this subject that I did mention that PCCs are mislabeled in the rifts books as RCCs and OCCs.
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sidenotes:
Psi-Ghosts are superheros with their powers running through bloodlines. Thus are correctly labeled with the RCC label. Just like the Psi-Stalker classes in the same book are correctly labeled as RCCs.
While yes, some chars from out side the bloodlines can have the same skills set as the full psi-ghosts, they don't get the powers that full Psi-Ghosts inherit from their parents.

Sea In.: They themselves do not change their class. The encounter with The Lord of the Deep imposes the changes. Sort of like how if someone gives a mage 7 magic tattoos the mage is changed to another class, not the mage changed his class. Or there is an explosion that hurts a char and the char needs replacement parts to live. That char's class was changed by the docs to borg to save his life...not the char changed his class to borg.
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PF2 changing class rules set RAW PCCs, aka master psychics, can not change their class.

There is no mention of PCC nor RCC within text in the HighSeas book of ether being covered by the text published there. That text only mentions OCCs.

None of the rules from the other settings are canon within the PF2 setting canon. Importing rules from other settings is a form of house rule.

*As I said before, it is the mislabeling of PCCs as RCCs and OCCs in rifts that is the problem when considering the changing class rules RUE says to use, the PF2 changing class rules. Because even though the PCCs are mislabeled in Rifts, they still cannot use the PF2 changing class rules because they are PCCs even though they are mislabeled.
*RUE even acknowledges that PCCs are still PCCs even though they are mislabeled as psychic OCCs and RCCs.

*sigh* I was hoping to avoid this battle again but since it appears that we are now hopelessly sidetracked...

I would also point out that there is no explicit statement in any book, anywhere that says PCCs can not change class.
So even if we accept the (false) premise that the canon is wrong, and Drew's Fanon is correct and that all psychics are PCCs....
...they can still freely use the class changing rules unless their specific class has a ban on it. Since it would be a house rule to try and generalize a universal rule from the restrictions on the listed PCCs. This is especially demonstrate able in 1st edition where only some of the psychic classes said that they could not change classes.
Which takes us right back to where we were before
Mystics can multi-class
Psi-Mystics can not multi-class
Mind Melters can multi-class
Mind Mages can not multi-class
And so forth.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Master Psi classes (PCCs) include both psionic CCs which can be taken by all psi capable races and psionic racial CCs that are limited in scope of who can have the CC by genetics, ether racial limiter or family/clan limiter.

I did point out that ALL PCC's in PF2 are through specific text statements are forbidden from changing their class. This is why I keep pointing out that the PF2 changing class rules do not include/cover PCCs.

That outside of Rifts, in all settings that use CCs, All master psychics are PCC's. It is just in Rifts where PB has been with no rhyme or reason labeling master psychics as all three CC labels. Thus, in my first post in this topic on this subject that I did mention that PCCs are mislabeled in the rifts books as RCCs and OCCs.
------------
sidenotes:
Psi-Ghosts are superheros with their powers running through bloodlines. Thus are correctly labeled with the RCC label. Just like the Psi-Stalker classes in the same book are correctly labeled as RCCs.
While yes, some chars from out side the bloodlines can have the same skills set as the full psi-ghosts, they don't get the powers that full Psi-Ghosts inherit from their parents.

Sea In.: They themselves do not change their class. The encounter with The Lord of the Deep imposes the changes. Sort of like how if someone gives a mage 7 magic tattoos the mage is changed to another class, not the mage changed his class. Or there is an explosion that hurts a char and the char needs replacement parts to live. That char's class was changed by the docs to borg to save his life...not the char changed his class to borg.
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PF2 changing class rules set RAW PCCs, aka master psychics, can not change their class.

There is no mention of PCC nor RCC within text in the HighSeas book of ether being covered by the text published there. That text only mentions OCCs.

None of the rules from the other settings are canon within the PF2 setting canon. Importing rules from other settings is a form of house rule.

*As I said before, it is the mislabeling of PCCs as RCCs and OCCs in rifts that is the problem when considering the changing class rules RUE says to use, the PF2 changing class rules. Because even though the PCCs are mislabeled in Rifts, they still cannot use the PF2 changing class rules because they are PCCs even though they are mislabeled.
*RUE even acknowledges that PCCs are still PCCs even though they are mislabeled as psychic OCCs and RCCs.

This is a ton of inference on your part. There's nothing written that supports your claims.

There's no text that implies that an individual trained to be a Psi-Ghost DOES NOT get all the powers.

Also, there's nothing to imply that a forced change of class is any different than a chosen change in class. By RAW, a Psi-Mystic CANNOT become a Tattoed Man (doesn't make sense, but that is RAW).

Also, RUE is NEWER than the other sources you keep quoting. By default, it is the source of record and can be assumed to be a correction, not an anomaly.

barna10 wrote:Born Msytics (Mystic Russia) can select a Super Psionic at first level

Ah... at second look you're right. I was looking at the top of 108 and wrongly assumed that if they got one it would come with experience, did not notice the bottom of 107 with the option of taking it instead of 3 sensitive. Pretty impressive. I guess it can't be Psi-Sword since you need to be third level due to the power description, but stuff Mind Melters can't get until 3 like Mentally Possess Others and Mind Wipe would be on the table.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:That PCCs are officially mislabeled as POCCs in rifts by the style filter used on RUE, that is not disputed.

I think a lot of people dispute your proposal of an "official mislabel" concept. Ultimate Edition came out after Palladium Fantasy and limits from a character class only apply to that class.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:That outside of Rifts, in all settings that use CCs, All master psychics are PCC's.

I don't think Rifts should get singled out on having weird PCC policies. Mystic China uses it for mages. Beyond the Supernatural uses it for non-psychics. Heroes Unlimited uses power categories and refers to Rifts Psionic OCCs. I think PF also uses that phrase. All or most/some PCCs are Psionic OCCs, but not all OCCs are Psionic.

barna10 wrote:There's no text that implies that an individual trained to be a Psi-Ghost DOES NOT get all the powers.

This is sort of implied. The "Race Restrictions" blurb has a parenthesized (everything except intangibility, the enhanced presence sense and ISP of the Psi-Ghost) when describing other psychics mimicing their capabilities. This is anyone who is not 'genetic mutations of humans' other races than this can't be true Psi-Ghosts.

That said... aren't ALL psychic humans technically 'genetic mutations of humans' ? Ogres could also arguably be called that.

Axelmania wrote:

barna10 wrote:There's no text that implies that an individual trained to be a Psi-Ghost DOES NOT get all the powers.

This is sort of implied. The "Race Restrictions" blurb has a parenthesized (everything except intangibility, the enhanced presence sense and ISP of the Psi-Ghost) when describing other psychics mimicing their capabilities. This is anyone who is not 'genetic mutations of humans' other races than this can't be true Psi-Ghosts.

That said... aren't ALL psychic humans technically 'genetic mutations of humans' ? Ogres could also arguably be called that.

Somewhat true. It says "Psi-Ghosts are all genetic mutations of humans;no other race can become a "true" Psi-Ghost with the power of intangibility, ...". This does not preclude a non-Psi-Ghost human from learning to become a Psi-Ghost, with the power of intangibility.

barna10 wrote:In addition, what XP would the Hermit gain, by RAW? The playing in character bonus? What time period would he gain this bonus for? Weekly? Monthly? If this is true, wouldn't ALL characters and NPCs receive the same bonus? And further, wouldn't this mean that a dutiful worker that simply went to work everyday for 30 years would be a high level character able to kick-butt and take names? This would mean that EVERY retiree was some bad-mama-jama like in some bad martial arts flick.

Per playing session
no seriously
Its a game not a reality simulation.
I am not aware of a single game in existence with an experience system that handles monks leveling up well. Or workers. Or much else besides adventurers....probably because they are designed to run adventurers.
Basically the answer is...
when the GM feels that he levels up, he does so.

--------------------------------------------------------

To some GMs, for psychics, using psionics count as skills. So meditating would be a skill, at least, possibly.

barna10 wrote:

Prysus wrote:I would go to say that many senior citizens are high level characters (not necessarily level 15 though), they're just NOT an O.C.C. as you know them. Think about it a different way. An electrician goes through training and learns his trade. He is now an electrician. Every day for 30 years, he wakes up and cooks himself breakfast, makes a quick lunch to take with him, goes to work as an electrician working on different problems, then plays a game of chess with his neighbor, cooks dinner, then heads to bed to repeat all over again. By your logic, he'll never improve during those 30 years. Another electrician, fresh out of training, will know just as much as him for the rest of his life. That doesn't make in game sense either. By your logic, he's just as likely to burn the meal he's cooked for 30 years, because he hasn't gotten any better at all. By your logic, he never learned a single move in chess and is just as much a rookie as the day he started.

Mundane characters don't have O.C.C. as you generally know them, and I don't know why you think every citizen is a martial artist. Most characters aren't trained in hand to hand, so they won't be (much) better at level 15 in combat. But, let's just take the concept of a character going to work every day, then after going to martial arts class. By your logic, after 30 years of training every day, the character won't have gotten any better ... AT ALL. Seriously, by your logic, the character studying martial arts for 30 years is just as likely to get his butt kicked by a student who walks into class the first day. In those "bad martial arts flick" you mention, those characters are (quite often) from a martial arts school, you know, where they go every day instead of adventuring. So, by your logic, they're not actually good at all. Now, will adventuring cause you to level faster? Yes. That tends to be your main hero in those movies. But that doesn't mean that no one else can learn anything ... EVER.

No argument about the real world, but that's not how things work in-game. If it were, older characters wouldn't start at first level and you should have the option to start your character older and begin higher than first level.

Prysus wrote:

barna10 wrote:Also, this goes against the rules for gaining skills where one can gain a skill by spending time in class (thereby by-passing the need to level-up to gain more skills).

Gain new skills, yes. Gain new experience, no. Learning new skills also requires a teacher (last I checked), something a hermit wouldn't have isolated as you suggested. Also, mystics avoid training in this way, and prefer to learn things naturally, so this would also make your analogy inappropriate. Though, for the record, to compare to your taking time to learn skills, Wizards (PF) and Ley Line Walkers (Rifts) and many other practitioners of magic can take time to learn a spell through training, and don't need to level. This is just not a path available to mystics, because they avoid traditional study. Farewell and safe journeys.[/justify]

But meditating is 100% appropriate for Mystics. I direct you to the description of each Mystic class in Palladium. They learn their spells (initial and each level-up) by meditating. It takes them (usually) 6 days to get their initial allotment of spells. I don't think spending another week to get 1 more spell (of equal or lower level) seems inappropriate. I'm sure some will scream play-balance!, but it seems to make sense given the logic of the class.

I think you can in Dead Reign. Being older starting off and being higher level.

say652 wrote:Give the character access to scrolls or techno wizard items. The occ already has spell selections. Why Add more.

Cant mystics uses scrolls??

I would allow the mystic to trance again whenever they came up for another new occ related skill.

Axelmania wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:That PCCs are officially mislabeled as POCCs in rifts by the style filter used on RUE, that is not disputed.

I think a lot of people dispute your proposal of an "official mislabel" concept. Ultimate Edition came out after Palladium Fantasy and limits from a character class only apply to that class.

They may dispute it but RUE says it in black and white text that there are PCCs mislabeled as one of the other CC's. So they would have to go against canon text to do so.

Axelmania wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:That outside of Rifts, in all settings that use CCs, All master psychics are PCC's.

I don't think Rifts should get singled out on having weird PCC policies. Mystic China uses it for mages. Beyond the Supernatural uses it for non-psychics. Heroes Unlimited uses power categories and refers to Rifts Psionic OCCs. I think PF also uses that phrase. All or most/some PCCs are Psionic OCCs, but not all OCCs are Psionic.

All the PCCs in PF are PCCs because they are defined by the nature of the character. Which does mean that the PCCs are not "jobs", they are result the nature of the char following their nature. As such can not be OCCs, which are Job CCs.

Axelmania wrote:

barna10 wrote:There's no text that implies that an individual trained to be a Psi-Ghost DOES NOT get all the powers.

This is sort of implied. The "Race Restrictions" blurb has a parenthesized (everything except intangibility, the enhanced presence sense and ISP of the Psi-Ghost) when describing other psychics mimicking their capabilities. This is anyone who is not 'genetic mutations of humans' other races than this can't be true Psi-Ghosts.

The text is clear, if the char did not inherit their powers from a parent, then they cannot be the full Psi-Ghost RCC. Yes, Psychics can be a PCC that has all the psychic powers of PGs but the intangibility is only inherited from a full psi-ghost parent.

Axelmania wrote:That said... aren't ALL psychic humans technically 'genetic mutations of humans' ? Ogres could also arguably be called that.

[/quote][/quote]ahhh...no. Psychic Humans are humans that have tapped into their psychic potential. Remember that a good portion of the text is written from the CS propaganda POV in that it describes things that are not separate as separate so they can point at those people as dangerous outsiders.
Then there is the scientific technical POV that all life are mutants.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Axelmania wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:That PCCs are officially mislabeled as POCCs in rifts by the style filter used on RUE, that is not disputed.

I think a lot of people dispute your proposal of an "official mislabel" concept. Ultimate Edition came out after Palladium Fantasy and limits from a character class only apply to that class.

They may dispute it but RUE says it in black and white text that there are PCCs mislabeled as one of the other CC's. So they would have to go against canon text to do so.

It doesn't say that it is 'mislabeled' though, that is your term. so claiming it is mislabeled is fanon.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:That outside of Rifts, in all settings that use CCs, All master psychics are PCC's.

Well other than Systems Failure that doesn't
ATB has no CCs
HU has no CCs
We do not know if Nightbane does because we do not know if some of the OCCs are considered master psychics or not
As of right now psionics are a matter of race not class in Robotech

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Axelmania wrote:

barna10 wrote:There's no text that implies that an individual trained to be a Psi-Ghost DOES NOT get all the powers.

This is sort of implied. The "Race Restrictions" blurb has a parenthesized (everything except intangibility, the enhanced presence sense and ISP of the Psi-Ghost) when describing other psychics mimicking their capabilities. This is anyone who is not 'genetic mutations of humans' other races than this can't be true Psi-Ghosts.

The text is clear, if the char did not inherit their powers from a parent, then they cannot be the full Psi-Ghost RCC. Yes, Psychics can be a PCC that has all the psychic powers of PGs but the intangibility is only inherited from a full psi-ghost parent.

The exact text is that only humans can be psi-ghosts and that others can mimic the class. It then says that they adopt humans and train them to be psi-ghosts.
Not to be like them, to be psi-ghosts.
Thus they are the Psi-Ghost R.C.C. no ifs, ands, or buts. Unless there is an explicit statement in another book that the adopted children do NOT get a portion of their class, then they have all the powers. Period. Anything else is a house rule.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Axelmania wrote:That said... aren't ALL psychic humans technically 'genetic mutations of humans' ? Ogres could also arguably be called that.

ahhh...no. Psychic Humans are humans that have tapped into their psychic potential. Remember that a good portion of the text is written from the CS propaganda POV in that it describes things that are not separate as separate so they can point at those people as dangerous outsiders.
Then there is the scientific technical POV that all life are mutants.

Do you have a source for your claim that the books are wrong when they claim that psychics are mutants?
Seriously, if you are going to claim that the books are wrong, and it is really CS propaganda you are going to need a pretty good source rather than just a "well I think it should be so"
I am also curious as to the source of this "has tapped into their psychic potential" is? ESPECIALLY since that would conflict with the stance that psionics are set at birth....

Not labeled what they are, not labeled correctly is mislabeled however you say it.


If I was not fully CLEAR about what I said,....when I said full psi-ghosts I am talking about those with the intangibility super power. And the text is clear that to be a full psi-ghost the char has to have inherited the intangibility super power from one of the char's parents or both of the char's parent.
If the char is just a psychic that trained with full psi-ghost then they have the PG PCC, not the PG RCC.
Eli knows this...That I say Character Classes for what they are even if they have been 'officially mislabeled' in the books.

As mentioned before, RUE says that there have, and are. PCCs that have been labeled as something other then PCCs.
[i]In other words[i] they admitted that those PCCs are mislabeled. And therefor admitting that they frell'ed up.

Why are psychics not "mutants"? Duh...PCCs are just limited to races with psychic potential not having to having genetics different from the rest of their race.

That the books are written with the CS VP. I'm surprised you didn't pick up on this before now. It is quite obvious when you note that PCCs are labeled as something they are not to fit into the CS VP that all people that are not totally mundane humans are not humans. It is this 'theme' 'style' 'whatfrellneverwithsarcasum' is what IS!!!!!!! the thing that is the greatest STUPID in the books. Cause it causes things to be misrepresented/mislabeled/Frack'ed up. PB had a Chance to push the reset button with RUE and FIX THINGS but they didn't. Choosing a different sort of WRONG.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Not labeled what they are, not labeled correctly is mislabeled however you say it.


If I was not fully CLEAR about what I said,....when I said full psi-ghosts I am talking about those with the intangibility super power. And the text is clear that to be a full psi-ghost the char has to have inherited the intangibility super power from one of the char's parents or both of the char's parent.
If the char is just a psychic that trained with full psi-ghost then they have the PG PCC, not the PG RCC.
Eli knows this...That I say Character Classes for what they are even if they have been 'officially mislabeled' in the books.

As mentioned before, RUE says that there have, and are. PCCs that have been labeled as something other then PCCs.
[i]In other words[i] they admitted that those PCCs are mislabeled. And therefor admitting that they frell'ed up

That the books are written with the CS VP. I'm surprised you didn't pick up on this before now. It is quite obvious when you note that PCCs are labeled as something they are not to fit into the CS VP that all people that are not totally mundane humans are not humans. It is this 'theme' 'style' 'whatfrellneverwithsarcasum' is what IS!!!!!!! the thing that is the greatest STUPID in the books. Cause it causes things to be misrepresented/mislabeled/Frack'ed up. PB had a Chance to push the reset button with RUE and FIX THINGS but they didn't. Choosing a different sort of WRONG.

This is your opinion yes.
It lacks support, requires ignoring some of the actual official printed canon, and makes all sorts inferences, and equates a number of things that may not actually be even similar let alone equal.... But it is your opinion sure.

woopp d doo....I don't ignore the part in RUE, Official Published Canon, that says I'm right.

As to the observation that the books are written to the CS PoV is just that, an observation.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:woopp d doo....I don't ignore the part in RUE, Official Published Canon, that says I'm right.

As to the observation that the books are written to the CS PoV is just that, an observation.

Well if you count taking one statement out of context and ignoring that to make it work you have to make ALL HUMANS in BTS psychics, even the non-psychics. Because the normal humans are a PCC.... so right there we can conclude that the statement does not mean what you are trying to say it does.

So yes. My statement stands, it selectively cherry picking pieces of canon and ignoring all contrary bits to arrive at a pre-determined conclusion.

And while you can personally feel that the books have a pro-CS slant that doesn't negate the fact that since the books say that psychics are mutants, that psychics are mutants.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Not labeled what they are, not labeled correctly is mislabeled however you say it.


If I was not fully CLEAR about what I said,....when I said full psi-ghosts I am talking about those with the intangibility super power. And the text is clear that to be a full psi-ghost the char has to have inherited the intangibility super power from one of the char's parents or both of the char's parent.
If the char is just a psychic that trained with full psi-ghost then they have the PG PCC, not the PG RCC.
Eli knows this...That I say Character Classes for what they are even if they have been 'officially mislabeled' in the books.

As mentioned before, RUE says that there have, and are. PCCs that have been labeled as something other then PCCs.
[i]In other words[i] they admitted that those PCCs are mislabeled. And therefor admitting that they frell'ed up.

Why are psychics not "mutants"? Duh...PCCs are just limited to races with psychic potential not having to having genetics different from the rest of their race.

That the books are written with the CS VP. I'm surprised you didn't pick up on this before now. It is quite obvious when you note that PCCs are labeled as something they are not to fit into the CS VP that all people that are not totally mundane humans are not humans. It is this 'theme' 'style' 'whatfrellneverwithsarcasum' is what IS!!!!!!! the thing that is the greatest STUPID in the books. Cause it causes things to be misrepresented/mislabeled/Frack'ed up. PB had a Chance to push the reset button with RUE and FIX THINGS but they didn't. Choosing a different sort of WRONG.

Stop, please. Please provide an actual reference to your statements about RUE because none of us can find it. Also, please reread Psyscape about Psi-Ghosts. It DOES NOT say trained Psi-Ghosts do not get Intangibility. It only says NON-HUMAN Psi-Ghosts do not get Intangibility. If the argument is about canon, then let's talk about what the book actually says and not what we think it says.

I would make the note that PCCs are also a later addition to the game. Originally PF didn't have P.C.C.s, the were a later development.
Just saying.

OK...to clear this up once and for all...
from RUE, pg 278, top of second column

"P.C.C. stands for Psychic Character Class and is a term reserved for "psychic" characters in Beyond the Supernatural 2, Nightbane, and Mystic China. Even though Rifts has Psychic Character Classes, we've found using the term, P.C.C., can be confusing, so we either refer to them as O.C.C.s or R.C.C.s; basically an O.C.C. with psychic abilities. Note: An R.C.C. or P.C.C. often has fewer skills and selections available because the character tends to rely on his psychic or natural (R.C.C./racial) abilities."

So nowhere does it say anything was "mislabeled". In fact, the difference is intentional. And furthermore, it appears as if the powers that be seem to consider the terms P.C.C., O.C.C., and R.C.C. to be fairly interchangeable. So, can we put this debate to rest yet? The distinctions what what *.C.C. a character is really means nada.

barna10 wrote:OK...to clear this up once and for all...
from RUE, pg 278, top of second column

"P.C.C. stands for Psychic Character Class and is a term reserved for "psychic" characters in Beyond the Supernatural 2, Nightbane, and Mystic China. Even though Rifts has Psychic Character Classes, we've found using the term, P.C.C., can be confusing, so we either refer to them as O.C.C.s or R.C.C.s; basically an O.C.C. with psychic abilities. Note: An R.C.C. or P.C.C. often has fewer skills and selections available because the character tends to rely on his psychic or natural (R.C.C./racial) abilities."

So nowhere does it say anything was "mislabeled". In fact, the difference is intentional. And furthermore, it appears as if the powers that be seem to consider the terms P.C.C., O.C.C., and R.C.C. to be fairly interchangeable. So, can we put this debate to rest yet? The distinctions what what *.C.C. a character is really means nada.

Your preaching to the choir here