Armor questions.

[Pepsi Jedi]

It's absurd.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The light machine is mansize and able to use power armor, my original question was.

Can a 6'6" soft suit be worn under the heavy Deadboy or a hard exoskeleton.

The idea was uniform Borg soldiers in Stealth Power Armor, Use the exoskeleton to Armor up for heavy combat.

Instead of my opinion my opinion, this, this and this.
Check la libre and see what I am saying.

Just as easy to switch power armor suits, though the uniform force becomes like styled Power Armor.

Then the answer is 100%, unequivocally "no". None of the Borg OCCs permit you to take Pilot Robots and Power Armor, nor do they allow you to take PA or Robot Combat skills.

[say652]

Japanese police officer.

NTSET Protector.

Vanguard Brawler.

Three Occs off the top of my head that allow full Conversion and piloting power armor.

Do you even World Book Bro.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Japanese police officer.

Strike One...

They may receive cybernetic reconstruction for injuries. The section mentioning that portions of the police force are Borgs refers you to that OCC (Cyborg Soldier - Police and Military) on page 97; just as the next sentence says that a significant portion of the Police Force are SAMAS pilots (and refers you to THAT OCC).

It does NOT say that the Police Officer OCC can be a borg.

NTSET Protector.

Strike Two...

Uh.. no? Reading it right now, son. Can receive cybernetic reconstruction for damage suffered in the line of duty. Nowhere does it say "can be a full conversion cyborg". Also, the Bionics Sourcebook, released after this, would supercede this anyway - as it states unequivocally that you MUST become a Cyborg OCC if you undergo full conversion.

Vanguard Brawler.

Strike Three.

Vanguard Brawler (the RCC) does NOT allow full conversion; you might want to hone those reading skills. What IS allowed is that they can choose NOT TO TAKE THE BRAWLER RCC, and INSTEAD take a Man-At-Arms OCC; so yes, they can be a Full-conversion Borg - but they use that OCC, NOT the skill selections under Vanguard Brawler.

Three Occs off the top of my head that allow full Conversion and piloting power armor.

Do you even World Book Bro.

And you're out.

[say652]

https://youtu.be/X9v-UGWAQwc

And no, I can make assumptions and misrwad things as well.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I don't think that body armor under power armor is acceptable.

Really depends on the "Power Armor" in question. The GB has a set of light EBA that you wear when you're piloting it. Several other suits classified as Power Armor have the room to wear EBA under them - or rather, while piloting them - as you dont actually put your arms and legs into the arms and legs of the suit (Terror Trooper, Samson, Ulti-Max right off the top of my head) so you dont have to worry about one set of armor binding the other - you're just operating levels and foot pedals, which armor wouldn't interfere with.

MOST PA, though - sure, i'd agree. Its meant to replace EBA, not go over it. Anything remotely form fitting or in which your arms and legs are in the arms and legs of the armor itself? Yeah, no way.

Even piloting robot vehicles which are much bigger one doesn't wear EBA in there. They have special (Lighter weight) Flight suit type stuff.

Eh... no. A LOT of the Robots are roomy enough to wear EBA, and pretty much everyone has a set for their pilots. The CS uses a CS-made black-and-white pattern Huntsman with a custom skull helmet for it's robot pilots (its on the cover of CWC, and is detailed in the IAR-4 writeup), NG makes a specific EBA for Robot/Vehicle pilots (its in NG... 2? whichever one has the armor); and since the CS-made Huntsman is just... Huntsman, with a custom helmet, anyone could use that.

The tanks and heavy vehicles, those guys are wearing CA-4 Heavy Armor, for sure. Plenty of space.

Are you people honestly wearing MDC Uniforms under EBA armor, and then putting power armor on over top it in your games?

Yeah.. seems a little iffy to me too. Though the MDC fabric uniforms i dont really see a problem with under EBA. The plain ones, not the semi-armored ones with concealed plates. But the plain clothes stuff, sure. Its just clothes. Says right in the descriptions that they are just as comfortable and wearing as clothes, so unless you're normally naked under the EBA...

[say652]

https://youtu.be/X9v-UGWAQwc

Took pic of the book to prove this is simply flaming and your opinion.

Both have no place on the net.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

https://youtu.be/X9v-UGWAQwc

Took pic of the book to prove this is simply flaming and your opinion.

Both have no place on the net.

So your response to being proven unequivocally wrong is to post a Youtube video related to absolutely nothing and accuse me of flaming because i posted the facts that prove you wrong?

How adult of you.

Enjoy ignore.

[say652]

Actually took pictures of the book that listed the Occs and the cybernetics section.

Not all full Conversion cyborgs are those limited rather stupid Borg Occs.

The video I sent my brother, he asked how to fit his rig under a low Train crossing.

[Bill]

I think there's an argument to be made that those classes mention that full conversion borgs are included in their organizations and that they don't enjoy the full class options. Customarily undergoing a full conversion would force a character to take on the Borg O.C.C.; see Switching to a Bionic O.C.C. SB1, p9. However, if you want a full conversion that has open access to all pilot skills, the Luftwaffe Cyborg Combat Pilot O.C.C. from WB31 will do the job.

[eliakon]

Rules as written, unless your OCC allows full bionics, gaining full bionics automatically triggers a change to the 'Borg OCC.
This of course can be waived by the GM. Also you do not forget your old skills, and can take skills to do most jobs in your new class.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I don't think that body armor under power armor is acceptable.

Really depends on the "Power Armor" in question. The GB has a set of light EBA that you wear when you're piloting it.

Pretty sure that's the armored flight suit type thing I was talking about not EBA. *Opens up RUE* Yeah they're listed as having light or medium EBA for when outside their glitter boy. There's still the pic for the "Pilot suit" but it's not EBA, the helmet's not enclosed if nothing else. Old style stuff with 25mdc

Several other suits classified as Power Armor have the room to wear EBA under them - or rather, while piloting them - as you dont actually put your arms and legs into the arms and legs of the suit (Terror Trooper, Samson, Ulti-Max right off the top of my head) so you dont have to worry about one set of armor binding the other - you're just operating levels and foot pedals, which armor wouldn't interfere with.

Ulti-max MAYBE and that's because it's not 'really' power armor. It's a little robot vehicle. Even then I'd maintain that EBA would be too bulky to be wore inside it while trying to pilot it. It'd be like trying to wear armor while flying a jet, but one that runs and jumps and such.

MOST PA, though - sure, i'd agree. Its meant to replace EBA, not go over it. Anything remotely form fitting or in which your arms and legs are in the arms and legs of the armor itself? Yeah, no way.

Even piloting robot vehicles which are much bigger one doesn't wear EBA in there. They have special (Lighter weight) Flight suit type stuff.

Eh... no. A LOT of the Robots are roomy enough to wear EBA, and pretty much everyone has a set for their pilots.

Most every OCC in rifts 'Gets' eba. That doesn't mean you wear it while you're trying to pilot something as difficult as bipedal or other combat robots. Some might have room, but it's not going to be easy.

The CS uses a CS-made black-and-white pattern Huntsman with a custom skull helmet for it's robot pilots (its on the cover of CWC, and is detailed in the IAR-4 writeup)

Yes that's the GUNNER not the pilot. You might also notice.. he's not IN the robot when he's wearing the armor. And a small note it's the CS knock off of the Urban Warrior, not the Huntsman.

, NG makes a specific EBA for Robot/Vehicle pilots (its in NG... 2? whichever one has the armor); and since the CS-made Huntsman is just... Huntsman, with a custom helmet, anyone could use that.

The stuff NG Makes is what I was talking about when I mentioned the armored pilot suits. And again most robo jockies (And power armor pilots) have non power armor for when they're OUT of their robots. That doesn't mean they're fully armored while In them.

The tanks and heavy vehicles, those guys are wearing CA-4 Heavy Armor, for sure. Plenty of space.

Are you people honestly wearing MDC Uniforms under EBA armor, and then putting power armor on over top it in your games?

Yeah.. seems a little iffy to me too. Though the MDC fabric uniforms i dont really see a problem with under EBA.

I do. Eba is strapped to you tightly. It's -environmental- body armor. It has to form a full envriomental sea. Not easy to do when you're strapped in. Much less over an already thick layer of clothing.

It'd be like trying to put on a suit of armor over a firefighter's call out gear and trying to be able to move. You'd waddle around like the guys in those blow up sumo suits.

The plain ones, not the semi-armored ones with concealed plates. But the plain clothes stuff, sure. Its just clothes. Says right in the descriptions that they are just as comfortable and wearing as clothes, so unless you're normally naked under the EBA...

There's a difference between "underwear or a body glove" and full out MDC clothing under full out environmental body armor.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Pretty sure that's the armored flight suit type thing I was talking about not EBA. *Opens up RUE* Yeah they're listed as having light or medium EBA for when outside their glitter boy. There's still the pic for the "Pilot suit" but it's not EBA, the helmet's not enclosed if nothing else. Old style stuff with 25mdc

So its not EBA - but is larger and bulkier than some EBA (not all).

Ulti-max MAYBE and that's because it's not 'really' power armor. It's a little robot vehicle. Even then I'd maintain that EBA would be too bulky to be wore inside it while trying to pilot it. It'd be like trying to wear armor while flying a jet, but one that runs and jumps and such.

Yes, a decent of the PA's fit that category though. You DONT put your arms and legs into the arms and legs of the Samson (called out in its description) but operate foot pedals for movement and levers for the arms; the Terror Trooper is the same way. There are two types of PA, one more common than the other - exoskeletal PAs (tight fitting, like a SAM, most of the new NG suits, etc) that are more common, and the "not quite a bot" PAs like the GB, Ulti-Max, Terror Trooper, Samson, etc, that have more room in them, where the pilot sits at controls.

Most every OCC in rifts 'Gets' eba. That doesn't mean you wear it while you're trying to pilot something as difficult as bipedal or other combat robots. Some might have room, but it's not going to be easy.

.. whats so difficult about piloting a robot? Its foot pedals and some levers or joysticks, neither of which are interfered with in any way by wearing Armor. Almost every single of these robots have arms lockers for guns if the pilots/gunners get dismounted, but theyre getting out in their skivvies? I dont think so. And look at the size of the pilots compartment on most of the Robots (other than the very smallest ones like the UAR-1 which never made sense to me, as in the pic, the Grunt next to it is bigger than any part of the actual robot that a guy could sit in..) - they aren't cramped. Hell, you can fit half a dozen guys into a Spider Skull Walker, for instance. In armor. No problems.

Yes that's the GUNNER not the pilot. You might also notice.. he's not IN the robot when he's wearing the armor.

No, i notice he's not in the Robot in the illustration, not that he never wears his (very non-restrictive looking) armor when inside the robot. And if you're seriously trying to say "well, the GUNNER gets armor but the pilot.. SCREW THAT GUY."... yeah, not buying that.

And a small note it's the CS knock off of the Urban Warrior, not the Huntsman.

My bad, there. I always get the weird fabricy-looking medium armors mixed up.

The stuff NG Makes is what I was talking about when I mentioned the armored pilot suits.

Its not an armored pilot suit, though, its full-up medium EBA. And you keep making a big deal about "EBA!" - there are plenty of EBA's that are smaller/slimmer/less confining than some of the "armored pilot suits". (edit) It is not, in fact, EBA. The helmet doesn't seal. But it is obviously bigger and bulkier than some of the EBAs on the next few pages. (further edit) i was both right and wrong. There is an EBA version later in the book (the Trekker).

And again most robo jockies (And power armor pilots) have non power armor for when they're OUT of their robots. That doesn't mean they're fully armored while In them.

You're making an assumption that isn't supported by anything other than your opinion, when the very few (very few) sources we do have say or show them wearing them inside their vehicles - including the illustration for the NG pilots EBA, which shows him in a robot, wearing the armor (as do several of the other robot illstrations where the pilots compartment is visible - the pilots are armored).

I do. Eba is strapped to you tightly. It's -environmental- body armor. It has to form a full envriomental sea. Not easy to do when you're strapped in. Much less over an already thick layer of clothing.

You're assuming it's a "thick layer of clothing" - even if you're correct and it is, i assure you, the armor is meant to go over thick clothing. No one, CS or NG included, expects you to wear what amounts to a spandex suit under your armor and have to change into fatigues back at base. You wear your daily clothes under your armor, or its nearly useless.

It'd be like trying to put on a suit of armor over a firefighter's call out gear and trying to be able to move. You'd waddle around like the guys in those blow up sumo suits.

.... you're trying to equate fatigues to firemans call out gear? (Which i have worn). Not even close, man.

There's a difference between "underwear or a body glove" and full out MDC clothing under full out environmental body armor.

Lets say your assumptions and head-canon are correct and its only "jumpsuits" that fit under EBA.

'sokay, NG has you covered:

MH-500 Armored Jumpsuit. Entirely made of MDC fabric and padding.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Pretty sure that's the armored flight suit type thing I was talking about not EBA. *Opens up RUE* Yeah they're listed as having light or medium EBA for when outside their glitter boy. There's still the pic for the "Pilot suit" but it's not EBA, the helmet's not enclosed if nothing else. Old style stuff with 25mdc

So its not EBA - but is larger and bulkier than some EBA (not all).

No.. It's not. It's a flight suit with a (Lame) Helmet. Page 73 of RUE. But to find stats for it you gotta look in the old source book 1. You should take note on the same page, there's a picture of the pilot's head inside the glitter boy's head. You are NOT Wearing EBA Armor in that thing. There's maybe an inch of clearance around the pilot's head and the Glitter boy's head. There's even a straw so you can have water while in the glitter boy. That's going to be really hard to do in a sealed helmet. And the GB is on the 'upper end of the PA spectrum' and often thought to be a small robot instead of a large PA.

So if the space is that tight in a suit that's 10'5", it's going to be LESS in smaller suits.

Ulti-max MAYBE and that's because it's not 'really' power armor. It's a little robot vehicle. Even then I'd maintain that EBA would be too bulky to be wore inside it while trying to pilot it. It'd be like trying to wear armor while flying a jet, but one that runs and jumps and such.

Yes, a decent of the PA's fit that category though.

No.. A couple fit that category. As in, a handful. 2-5 out of dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens if not 100s of PA shown through the books. You're misrepresenting exceptions to the rule as 'the rule'.

You DONT put your arms and legs into the arms and legs of the Samson (called out in its description) but operate foot pedals for movement and levers for the arms; the Terror Trooper is the same way. There are two types of PA, one more common than the other - exoskeletal PAs (tight fitting, like a SAM, most of the new NG suits, etc) that are more common, and the "not quite a bot" PAs like the GB, Ulti-Max, Terror Trooper, Samson, etc, that have more room in them, where the pilot sits at controls.

Even in those few exceptions, it's not like they're in a mini van. Spacious room all around. There's views of the glitter boy. The suit is plenty tight around the operator. The 'legs' just have about 3 feet of extra on the bottom (I'm guessing for the pylon system). More over you seem to be 'straddeling' the crotch of the GB like riding a saddle. Your legs dangeling down. Nothing to support them on. You swing your foot backwards to kick the pylon lever to deploy them.

Most every OCC in rifts 'Gets' eba. That doesn't mean you wear it while you're trying to pilot something as difficult as bipedal or other combat robots. Some might have room, but it's not going to be easy.

.. whats so difficult about piloting a robot?

It's a large bipedal machine that by actual phyics has a ton of problems even existing, but I know we're playing rifts so real science seldom has a place. Even in Rifts, piloting robots is not easy. Only select people can even try, and it takes dedicated training. Your question is akin to "What's so difficult about piloting a tank. It's just a vehicle".... yes... and no. Piloting a tank isn't easy and it's just 'rolling'. It's not 10-50 feet tall. it can't 'trip' or stumble. it doesn't have a higher center of gravity. it doesn't get caught on power lines or tree branches and maybe fall down. It doesn't 'RUN' or "Jump".

piloting a robot is going to be a pretty complex operation.

heck people wreck piloting cars and bicycles all the time and they're not 'Hard'. Piloting a robot is going to be about 50-100 times harder than that

Its foot pedals and some levers or joysticks, neither of which are interfered with in any way by wearing Armor.

Armor restricts your movements and cancles tactile feedback. "Some foot pedals and some levers" lol is your robot from 1950s television? Captain Proton? Piloting a giant sci fi robot is going to be ALOT more complex than "Foot pedals and some levers or joysticks"... My Mini van is more complicated than that.

As for interference, yes there will be. Armor takes up space. it makes you move in certain ways. it restricts you from moving in other ways. It's restrictive. Even good armor is. It's partially displayed in the movmenet penalties and what not but even that is enormously generous. (We're playing a RPG, noone actually wants REAL world stuff too much in a game it's a bummer))

I live in the UP of MI. (Nothern Gun, Represent!)) It gets COLD up here in the winter. -35 type cold. We still do things. go out and what not. Have you ever driven in a winter coat and gloves? Much less restrictive than full body EBA I'm sure. Driving is more difficult. (Not impossible.) but have you ever tried to change the radio station with gloves on? Not armored MDC gloves. Just normal gloves.

Try it out. Then imagine you're sitting in a bipedal giant robot trying to run and manuver and you're swiping at controll surfaces in full armor.

Almost every single of these robots have arms lockers for guns if the pilots/gunners get dismounted, but theyre getting out in their skivvies? I dont think so.

No. I'd imagine they're in flight suits or uniforms. Not 'skivvies'. But then I doubt robo jockies are getting out of their robots in the field just for giggles. If they do they're either shutting down the bot and doing stuff. where in they could don their armor then if needed. or evacuating a crashing bot.

And look at the size of the pilots compartment on most of the Robots (other than the very smallest ones like the UAR-1 which never made sense to me, as in the pic, the Grunt next to it is bigger than any part of the actual robot that a guy could sit in..) - they aren't cramped. Hell, you can fit half a dozen guys into a Spider Skull Walker, for instance. In armor. No problems.

Can you cite your sources on this? Where are you seeing pilots compartments on most robots? Page numbers please. Very seldom are such things shown and when they are they're typically plenty cramped.

Yes that's the GUNNER not the pilot. You might also notice.. he's not IN the robot when he's wearing the armor.

No, i notice he's not in the Robot in the illustration, not that he never wears his (very non-restrictive looking) armor when inside the robot.

OHHHHH... I'm sorry. You have an image of him inside the robot wearing the armor. My bad. On what page is that found, of which book? I'd like to check it out.

And if you're seriously trying to say "well, the GUNNER gets armor but the pilot.. SCREW THAT GUY."... yeah, not buying that.

Pilots and gunners are different. Pilots have to drive and need to be able to move more than the gunners. I'm not sure, as it's never really gone over, but I don't see the gunner's manually feeding shells into the cannons on the inside of robots like a tank crew has to do.

And a small note it's the CS knock off of the Urban Warrior, not the Huntsman.

My bad, there. I always get the weird fabricy-looking medium armors mixed up.

The stuff NG Makes is what I was talking about when I mentioned the armored pilot suits.

Its not an armored pilot suit, though, its full-up medium EBA.

Can you cite the page of the one you're talking about though? If you're talking about the Robot command armor, that is SPECIFICLY Designed for Robot pilots in mind..... you're wrong. It's found on page 50 of NG2 and is stated that it's specificly designed for the job (Which means others are not) It's also very specific that it is NOT EBA. It's in the non EBA section and there's a note in the write up that it's not. You may be misremembering.

And again most robo jockies (And power armor pilots) have non power armor for when they're OUT of their robots. That doesn't mean they're fully armored while In them.

You're making an assumption that isn't supported by anything other than your opinion, when the very few (very few) sources we do have say or show them wearing them inside their vehicles - including the illustration for the NG pilots EBA, which shows him in a robot, wearing the armor (as do several of the other robot illstrations where the pilots compartment is visible - the pilots are armored).

You're citing one picture, of a cropped image from a robot as your basis, from which the 'armor' was created to suit the picture, not the other way around (Or they'd have shots of it standing up, and not just the cropped pic)

I do. Eba is strapped to you tightly. It's -environmental- body armor. It has to form a full envriomental sea. Not easy to do when you're strapped in. Much less over an already thick layer of clothing.

You're assuming it's a "thick layer of clothing" - even if you're correct and it is, i assure you, the armor is meant to go over thick clothing.

Because they're TRYING for the guy in a sumo suit type of manuverability? Why do you assure me it's meant to go over thick cloathing?

Again.... honestly go put on two or three coats and see how well you move. lol I'm not trying to be amusing. I'm being honest. Go try it out. it's not fun.

No one, CS or NG included, expects you to wear what amounts to a spandex suit under your armor and have to change into fatigues back at base.

I 100% disagree. I think that's 100% exactly what they expect you to do and 100% exactly how it is. Other wise they wouldn't be able to maintain an environmental seal. If it's not tight (yes like spandex) how are you maintaining the seal? Are you envisioning a balloon effect with everything poofed out? lol

You wear your daily clothes under your armor, or its nearly useless.

No... it keeps you alive in MD firefights. This bumps up to another issue I have. A) The players that think their chars LIVE in their EBA and never take it off. Armor is uncomfortable at the best of times. Sure you'll wear it on patrol or on missions because you have to. When you get back to base or what evr you strip out of that crap ASAP. That's when you change into your 'day clothes' be it a uniform or jeans and a teeshirt. You're surely not weariing it 'under' the armor, that'd just make it that much more uncomfortable. (And none of it pictured shows the possibility of that much room under the armor anyway) and B) That many players tend to forget that aspect, and also forget that many towns and most cities don't let you walk down the street in the armor anyway. NG and the CS don't let you tool around in full battle rattle. They stop you at the outside of town and you either have to strip down/disarm or locker that sort of stuff.

it's not 'harped on' in thebooks but it's there when you read.

It'd be like trying to put on a suit of armor over a firefighter's call out gear and trying to be able to move. You'd waddle around like the guys in those blow up sumo suits.

.... you're trying to equate fatigues to firemans call out gear? (Which i have worn). Not even close, man.

I'm equating MDC cloathing like.. the MDC Coats that are "Clothes" to call out gear.

There's a difference between "underwear or a body glove" and full out MDC clothing under full out environmental body armor.

Lets say your assumptions and head-canon are correct and its only "jumpsuits" that fit under EBA.

'sokay, NG has you covered:

MH-500 Armored Jumpsuit. Entirely made of MDC fabric and padding.

The MH-500 is made of MDC Microfiber fabric. I might allow that. With it's whopping 6mdc. Sure.

(( For the record my groups have been using the different NG md fatigues since their introduction back in world book 27, in 2006. In all honesty I can't imagine that the CS doesn't issue the same stuff to their troops. though we've never seen it in Canon. The NG Fatigues give you the perfect example of what troops and mercs are wearing 90% of the time, and then they suit up for battle or patrol in the eba and other stuff for the other 10% of the time.))

[say652]

Mods as original poster,

Lock this thread.

[eliakon]

Okay soooo
This looks like a Headcanon war.

Are there any official sources for the claims of:

1) The physical complexity of driving a robot
2) the inability to wear armor while doing so
3) that any of the dualing pictures are canon?
4) how EBA works in rifts?
5) the size and thickness of EBA systems
6) what the standard flight uniform of robots is?

[say652]

As originally suggested my fix was,
Use the Terror Trooper power armor and just switch for heavy combat.

So the two helicopters, Demon Locust Combat variety carry, one troop of Ten Heavy Deadboys and the other Five Terror Troopers.
Losing five men kinda sucked.

Not dealing with, the blah blah blah.
Priceless.

[guardiandashi]

to be honest I can see both sides of the fatigues/clothing/armor argument..

my personal idea is that EBA is a layered suit much like many medieval and or sci-fi armor (like stormtrooper armor from star wars.

the EBA armor is actually a "bodyglove" full body suit with the possible (likely) exception of hands feet, and head this provides climate control, environmental sealing, and such, while likely only having ~1-10 MDC max. the vast majority of the protection is from "strap on" armor that goes over the top of this "bodyglove"

now it is entirely possible that the "strap on armor" could be worn over non bodyglove clothing but it likely would NOT be environmentally sealed, and likely would be more uncomfortable.

with most power armor tanks, and robot vehicles I could see them designed either way, either you wear a special bodyglove likely the same standard ones. OR the control setup is designed around the "standard body armor".... more like the armored flight suits from pacific rim. I am not saying they use the same control interfaces but that the controls and pilot restraints are designed to "lock onto" an armored suit.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

So if the space is that tight in a suit that's 10'5", it's going to be LESS in smaller suits.

Which is funny, since you're tilting at windmills here. I never claimed small suits would allow EBA. I agree with you, they wouldn't. Quit making things up.

Nothing to support them on. You swing your foot backwards to kick the pylon lever to deploy them.

You know, except that part where it unequivocally says that the computer engages the pylons automatically.

It's a large bipedal machine that by actual phyics has a ton of problems even existing, but I know we're playing rifts so real science seldom has a place. Even in Rifts, piloting robots is not easy.

Easy enough that illiterates can do it, and there's no source of any kind saying it is difficult.

Only select people can even try,

Source? If we're going by OCCs that let you choose the skills, its hardly "select". Way more than half.

and it takes dedicated training. Your question is akin to "What's so difficult about piloting a tank. It's just a vehicle".... yes... and no. Piloting a tank isn't easy

About as hard as piloting a bulldozer, really, though with less field of vision (in a modern tank, in a Rifts tank, you probab ly have 360 degree viewscreens). FWIW, i learned to drive (and use for its intended purpose) a Bulldozer in about three 8 hour work days.

and it's just 'rolling'. It's not 10-50 feet tall. it can't 'trip' or stumble. it doesn't have a higher center of gravity. it doesn't get caught on power lines or tree branches and maybe fall down. It doesn't 'RUN' or "Jump".

piloting a robot is going to be a pretty complex operation.

heck people wreck piloting cars and bicycles all the time and they're not 'Hard'. Piloting a robot is going to be about 50-100 times harder than that

Everything you're describing is handled by software... it HAS to be. There's no physical way for a human to operate enough control surfaces at once to pilot a robot if they have to account for every movement of every joint.

Want a good example of how something this complex is handled? While it is not Rifts, the tech involved is actually more futuristic. Go watch Macross Plus (im not sure if the scene im thinking about is in the OAV or the Movie version, as both have scenes that the other doesn't contain) - there is an entire extended scene where Isamu Dyson is piloting a VF-11 Thunderbolt III and we can clearly see how ALL of the controls work. The foot pedals control movement (in Battroid, pressing both forward causes it to walk forward, one back and one forward causes it to turn, etc; controls the directionality of the thrust in Gerwalk/Fighter modes), and the twin sticks control the movement of the arms and hands (his fingers slot through rings on the joysticks, so when he opens his hand, the hands of the Battroid open, and the sticks slide along short rails on either side of the cockpit - when he slides them back, the mech draws its arms back as if to punch, etc) and maneuver the ship in Fighter mode.

Its simple actions translated into complicated ones via software - just like any modern computer controlled system (the F-22 isn't even flyable without computer assistance; its so maneuverable that if you tried to directly pilot it youd kill yourself, for instance).

edit:
This is also inferred by pretty much all of the flying PAs - there are no flight sticks or control surfaces, as the flying PAs are the form-fitting type - so they have to respond to certain movements/haptic feedback from the pilot to fly. Point your toes? Engage rockets, etc. Simple movements interpreted by software to make the armor even functional.

Armor restricts your movements

You have a really dim view of Rifts EBA if you think it is true to the extent where it would hinder the operation of controls. If it was that restricting, you couldnt fight in it.

"Some foot pedals and some levers" lol is your robot from 1950s television? Captain Proton?

Um, no, from Rifts, where that method of control is specifically pointed out on a number of occasions. Not that it matters, as i've pointed out how simple controls can result in complicated actions above.

As for interference, yes there will be. Armor takes up space.

Most of the armor seems to be... at best a few inches thick on the very armored portions, and significantly thinner on other areas. Not that it really matters, as you dont need nearly as much space as you think you do. I could fit into, and drive, my wife's old Chevy Aveo wearing a full set of Burgundian Gothic plate armor. With no issues. The armor in Rifts is significantly less impairing.

it makes you move in certain ways. it restricts you from moving in other ways. It's restrictive. Even good armor is. It's partially displayed in the movmenet penalties and what not but even that is enormously generous. (We're playing a RPG, noone actually wants REAL world stuff too much in a game it's a bummer))

I live in the UP of MI. (Nothern Gun, Represent!)) It gets COLD up here in the winter. -35 type cold. We still do things. go out and what not. Have you ever driven in a winter coat and gloves?

Since i live in MI, yeah. Every year. It doesn't restrict me in any way. My gloves (hand woven wool, by my wife) dont impair my sense of touch in any meaningful way. Maybe buy a coat that actually fits you?

Much less restrictive than full body EBA I'm sure.

why are you so sure? EBA doesn't have locked joints like medieval armor did (could only bend in one or two directions). It isn't hugely bulky (a full suit of 100MDC armor weighs less then my breast and backplate (not a LOT less, to be fair, but when you consider the breastplate is only about 1/3 of the weight of the whole suit..), and the hands dont have to be some super-thick, no-tactile response plate - in fact, if you look at most illustrations, they look like gloves, with maybe a plate on the back of the hand.

Driving is more difficult. (Not impossible.) but have you ever tried to change the radio station with gloves on? Not armored MDC gloves. Just normal gloves.

Uh, yeah, it isn't exactly hard. Reach over, turn dial. Then again, im not using some mega-inflated synthetic material 10$-at-Meijers gloves. The only part of driving in the winter i find more difficult is the idiots on the road who freak out the moment there is snow (and we live in MI, people, seriously?) and drive like morons.

Try it out. Then imagine you're sitting in a bipedal giant robot trying to run and manuver and you're swiping at controll surfaces in full armor.

Covered that. If armor made your tactile feedback that bad, it wouldn't be usable in combat. Even Medieval armor, you didn't wear hand-wear that took away your sense of touch (if you see anyone pointing out articulate plate fingers, theyre full of it, that stuff never existed on the battlefield).

No. I'd imagine they're in flight suits or uniforms. Not 'skivvies'. But then I doubt robo jockies are getting out of their robots in the field just for giggles. If they do they're either shutting down the bot and doing stuff. where in they could don their armor then if needed. or evacuating a crashing bot.

There's no room for them to wear their armor (which only makes them a few inches bigger in each dimension at most), but they have room to STORE their armor for use when they get dismounted? Which is it man, you cant have it both ways.

Can you cite your sources on this? Where are you seeing pilots compartments on most robots? Page numbers please. Very seldom are such things shown and when they are they're typically plenty cramped.

The descriptions of the robots themselves. For the Skull Walker, the illustration, that shows a grunt walking next to the thing, in full armor. But in most cases, the description of the robot. A LOT of them have room for the stated crew + X passengers, +X MORE passengers "but cramped". Plenty. Of. Space.

OHHHHH... I'm sorry. You have an image of him inside the robot wearing the armor. My bad. On what page is that found, of which book? I'd like to check it out.

... are you being serious or just being a troll.

Pilots and gunners are different. Pilots have to drive and need to be able to move more than the gunners.

Source? Oh, right, you dont have one.

Can you cite the page of the one you're talking about though? If you're talking about the Robot command armor, that is SPECIFICLY Designed for Robot pilots in mind..... you're wrong. It's found on page 50 of NG2 and is stated that it's specificly designed for the job (Which means others are not) It's also very specific that it is NOT EBA. It's in the non EBA section and there's a note in the write up that it's not. You may be misremembering.

... or you're deliberately miss-quoting me, as i edited the post within 60 seconds and showed both sets, and even marked it as an edit.

And again most robo jockies (And power armor pilots) have non power armor for when they're OUT of their robots. That doesn't mean they're fully armored while In them.

If they dont have room to wear the armor, they certainly dont have room to STORE the armor and put it on later.

You're making an assumption that isn't supported by anything other than your opinion,

And passages from the books that ive pointed out, and artwork, etc. You know, my "opinion" that it works the way it is shown.

You're citing one picture, of a cropped image from a robot as your basis, from which the 'armor' was created to suit the picture, not the other way around (Or they'd have shots of it standing up, and not just the cropped pic)

Uh, no, im citing about a dozen pictures in the NG book alone (ANY of the robots with a visible pilots compartment show the pilot, in armor). The illustration for the armor itself (the Non-Enviro one) shows THREE different robots, and the environmental set shows a FOURTH.

I do. Eba is strapped to you tightly. It's -environmental- body armor. It has to form a full envriomental sea. Not easy to do when you're strapped in. Much less over an already thick layer of clothing.

... how many dozens of EBA's do you want me to show you that are very obviously NOT tightly strapped to you? Well start with Crusader; the upper chest is NOT conformed the wearer in any way (unless it was patterned on a Kittani). You dont need it to be form-fitting to form an environmental seal. It just needs to be closed and sealed. If it isnt resting against your skin, that's not hurting the seal any.

Honestly, as presented, the armor CANT be that tightly fit - if it was, it would be 20x as expensive as each suit would have be custom fit to the wearer. This is CLEARLY not the case as the stuff is mass produced.

Because they're TRYING for the guy in a sumo suit type of manuverability? Why do you assure me it's meant to go over thick cloathing?

For one thing, because "thick clothing" is not a firemans turn out gear. Its... a sweater. The only person citing the sumo suit over and over is you.

Again.... honestly go put on two or three coats and see how well you move. lol I'm not trying to be amusing. I'm being honest. Go try it out. it's not fun.

You keep coming back to that, and yet no one other than you is claiming that's what it is like. The illustrations dont support you, for one thing, nor do the descriptions. A set of fatigues is NOT a thick coat, much less two or three. Its a medium-weight synttetic fabric a few MM thick. Its just clothes, nothing more, nothing less.

I 100% disagree. I think that's 100% exactly what they expect you to do and 100% exactly how it is. Other wise they wouldn't be able to maintain an environmental seal.

I think we've covered how that's a pile of bunk. Sealed != form fitting. It means sealed.

If it's not tight (yes like spandex) how are you maintaining the seal? Are you envisioning a balloon effect with everything poofed out? lol

Because two hard portions of the armor close together, forming a seal, with your limbs inside of it. Or they use semi-rigid materials for the seals, like they must on armor like the huntsman or bushman and et al, that aren't all hard plates. Those dont go all sumo, somehow, and are hardly form-fitting tight jumpsuits.

You wear your daily clothes under your armor, or its nearly useless.

No... it keeps you alive in MD firefights. This bumps up to another issue I have. A) The players that think their chars LIVE in their EBA and never take it off. Armor is uncomfortable at the best of times. Sure you'll wear it on patrol or on missions because you have to. When you get back to base or what evr you strip out of that crap ASAP.

Except for the part where a lot of soldiers and mercs operate away from any base for weeks or months at a time. Where are they keeping all that stuff?

That's when you change into your 'day clothes' be it a uniform or jeans and a teeshirt. You're surely not weariing it 'under' the armor, that'd just make it that much more uncomfortable. (And none of it pictured shows the possibility of that much room under the armor anyway)

You're looking at different pictures than i am.

and B) That many players tend to forget that aspect, and also forget that many towns and most cities don't let you walk down the street in the armor anyway. NG and the CS don't let you tool around in full battle rattle. They stop you at the outside of town and you either have to strip down/disarm or locker that sort of stuff.

This has nothing to do with the discussion, though. I agree with you, FWIW, that people tend to "live in their armor" unless you point out to them how absurd that is. Oddly enough, i've always thought those rules (at least for non-CS cities) are stupid in the extreme.

"Hey, normal human dude, you have to wear regular clothes and locker your armor and weapons... but Cyborg guy there can still be a heavily armored juggernaught and punch you to mist at will!"

In my games, they dont let you carry weapons in town, but if you want to tool around town in your armor so you dont get insta-gibbed by a vibro-knife, no one cares. The CS, obviously, is different.

There's a difference between "underwear or a body glove" and full out MDC clothing under full out environmental body armor.

Uh... here's where the major issue is, i think. You have this idea that the MDC clothing is somehow restrictive or different than regular clothing, when all of the descriptions claim it isn't this way at all. Its just clothes. Really expensive clothes made out of MDC fabrics and weaves, but its just clothes. There's absolutely nothing that supports the MDC clothing as being heavy and super restrictive.

The MH-500 is made of MDC Microfiber fabric. I might allow that. With it's whopping 6mdc. Sure.

Right. None of the other MDC clothing has much more. The ARMORED MDC FATIGUES are different. They have plates and crap inserted in them, and i dont think anyone was trying to say you can wear that under armor. I certainly wasnt. In fact, i specifically said i wouldnt allow it.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Okay soooo
This looks like a Headcanon war.

Are there any official sources for the claims of:

1) The physical complexity of driving a robot

Specifically robots, not off the top of my head and i dont feel like going through all the books today, but PA, yes. In particular, the Samson is flat out said to be run by levers for the arms/hands and foot pedals for the legs, and operates more like a robot. Edit: The Terror Trooper is listed the same way ('the pilot sits in the chest area and manipulates the hands, arms, and legs with foot and hand controls'), as is the GB Killer ('Like the Terror Trooper, the pilot sits in the chest and control the robot arms and legs with a series of lever and foot pedals').

2) the inability to wear armor while doing so

No source of any kind that i can find that says boo about wearing armor while driving a robot.

3) that any of the dualing pictures are canon?

If they are in the book, they're canon. If they aren't (because Kev said "images aren't always canon") then.. A) Kev is an idiot and B) he should not bother putting in illustrations if they are meaningless. Otherwise, in any argument, i can just claim "that isn't how the robot looks" even though all the illustrations show it that way. If illustrations aren't canon - then in my game the SAMAS looks totally different. See how stupid that is?

4) how EBA works in rifts?

In terms of its function, yes, almost every book with a large selection of EBA has a "it has all these features". In terms of ... is it all skin-tight, does it fit over a jumpsuit... nothing except illustrations that show that not all the armor is skin tight.

5) the size and thickness of EBA systems

Only what can be inferred from illustrations of people half-armored or wearing armor near someone who is not. The Dog Pack heavy armor (recycled old style heavy-dead-boy-armor) has a few good shots of it with helmets off. It doesnt appear very thick. A few inches at most in the chest.

6) what the standard flight uniform of robots is?

The only inferrence towards a "standard" is the one from CWC. But several manufacturers make specific armor for robot pilots.

[eliakon]

Okay soooo
This looks like a Headcanon war.

Are there any official sources for the claims of:

<Snip>

3) that any of the dualing pictures are canon?

If they are in the book, they're canon. If they aren't (because Kev said "images aren't always canon") then.. A) Kev is an idiot and B) he should not bother putting in illustrations if they are meaningless. Otherwise, in any argument, i can just claim "that isn't how the robot looks" even though all the illustrations show it that way. If illustrations aren't canon - then in my game the SAMAS looks totally different. See how stupid that is?

I dunno....The problem I have is that we run into the same problem with pictures that obviously do not match, or that are 'styalistic' or what ever.
Though my personal solution is to consider art to be deuterocanonical (of canon, but a lesser form and not able to contradict the greater canon, but still able to trump any lesser source).

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I dunno....The problem I have is that we run into the same problem with pictures that obviously do not match, or that are 'styalistic' or what ever.
Though my personal solution is to consider art to be deuterocanonical (of canon, but a lesser form and not able to contradict the greater canon, but still able to trump any lesser source).

Which i can get behind.

[Pepsi Jedi]

So if the space is that tight in a suit that's 10'5", it's going to be LESS in smaller suits.

Which is funny, since you're tilting at windmills here. I never claimed small suits would allow EBA. I agree with you, they wouldn't. Quit making things up.

LOL You claimed _THAT ONE_ did, and it's been shown, as I cited, to be clearly false. The entire discussion is about people stacking up armors with in armors with in armors (Or armors over armors over armors over borgs.)

Nothing to support them on. You swing your foot backwards to kick the pylon lever to deploy them.

You know, except that part where it unequivocally says that the computer engages the pylons automatically.

It doesn't though. It doesn't say that 'unequivocally' or .. in any other way. It says that the pylons and jets fly into action the moment the gun is fired. NOT that a computer does it.

It's a large bipedal machine that by actual phyics has a ton of problems even existing, but I know we're playing rifts so real science seldom has a place. Even in Rifts, piloting robots is not easy.

Easy enough that illiterates can do it, and there's no source of any kind saying it is difficult.

Where are you getting that illiterates are driving glitterboys? And as for sources saying it's difficult... the write up only mentions how highly trained and specialized they are about 10 times. I'd refer you to the RUE and have you read the entry.

Illiterates, you might be thinking of the CS.. but the CS Don't field Glitterboys.

Only select people can even try,

Source? If we're going by OCCs that let you choose the skills, its hardly "select". Way more than half.

It's been a while but I'm pretty sure you can't choose pilot Robot/PA under a secondary skill. No. Not 'way more than half'.

and it takes dedicated training. Your question is akin to "What's so difficult about piloting a tank. It's just a vehicle".... yes... and no. Piloting a tank isn't easy

About as hard as piloting a bulldozer, really, though with less field of vision (in a modern tank, in a Rifts tank, you probab ly have 360 degree viewscreens). FWIW, i learned to drive (and use for its intended purpose) a Bulldozer in about three 8 hour work days.

There's a great deal of difference between piloting a tank and a bulldozer... I'm amazed I even have to make that clear.

and it's just 'rolling'. It's not 10-50 feet tall. it can't 'trip' or stumble. it doesn't have a higher center of gravity. it doesn't get caught on power lines or tree branches and maybe fall down. It doesn't 'RUN' or "Jump".

piloting a robot is going to be a pretty complex operation.

heck people wreck piloting cars and bicycles all the time and they're not 'Hard'. Piloting a robot is going to be about 50-100 times harder than that

Everything you're describing is handled by software... it HAS to be.

As you seem to be fond of saying, can you cite a source for that? I'm doubtful. The indication is that driving Robots isn't that easy. You don't just hit a button and it moves forward. you gotta pilot the thing. There's not gong to be software for 'Run 40 feet forward, commando roll come up, leap to the right, slide, fire your main gun, then get up, zig zag to the next bit of cover. swuat and shoot.

There's no physical way for a human to operate enough control surfaces at once to pilot a robot if they have to account for every movement of every joint.

Thus.. Implication that it's DIFFICULT... not EASy. Thank you. lol

Want a good example of how something this complex is handled? While it is not Rifts, the tech involved is actually more futuristic. Go watch Macross Plus (im not sure if the scene im thinking about is in the OAV or the Movie version, as both have scenes that the other doesn't contain) - there is an entire extended scene where Isamu Dyson is piloting a VF-11 Thunderbolt III and we can clearly see how ALL of the controls work. The foot pedals control movement (in Battroid, pressing both forward causes it to walk forward, one back and one forward causes it to turn, etc; controls the directionality of the thrust in Gerwalk/Fighter modes), and the twin sticks control the movement of the arms and hands (his fingers slot through rings on the joysticks, so when he opens his hand, the hands of the Battroid open, and the sticks slide along short rails on either side of the cockpit - when he slides them back, the mech draws its arms back as if to punch, etc) and maneuver the ship in Fighter mode.

Its simple actions translated into complicated ones via software - just like any modern computer controlled system (the F-22 isn't even flyable without computer assistance; its so maneuverable that if you tried to directly pilot it youd kill yourself, for instance).

Again this is a misrepresentation. In Macross, you have the protoculture stuff and the 'thinking cap' in the helmets that are basically reading the pilot's minds. That's not the control interfaces for Rifts.

edit:
This is also inferred by pretty much all of the flying PAs - there are no flight sticks or control surfaces, as the flying PAs are the form-fitting type - so they have to respond to certain movements/haptic feedback from the pilot to fly. Point your toes? Engage rockets, etc. Simple movements interpreted by software to make the armor even functional.

Indeed, but it's a skill none the less and one that's going to be extreamly unforgiving of mistakes. When you're booking along in PA doing 500mph a mistake is going to sting, but you keep poppingback and forth between robots and PA and they're different.

Armor restricts your movements

You have a really dim view of Rifts EBA if you think it is true to the extent where it would hinder the operation of controls. If it was that restricting, you couldnt fight in it.

You do realize most EBA gives penalties right? It's listed under most every one and when they 'dont' have penalties it's listed as a special thing? Including the armors you list later having to be specificly designed and purpose built to try and eliminate the penalties that express that it is harder.

yes, it's harder to drive if you're covered in FULLY ENVIRONMENTALLY SEALED BATTLE ARMOR. lol How could it possibly NOT be more difficult??

"Some foot pedals and some levers" lol is your robot from 1950s television? Captain Proton?

Um, no, from Rifts, where that method of control is specifically pointed out on a number of occasions.

Please show me sources, A NUMBER OF THEM no less that SPECIFICALLY point out it's just foot pedals and some levers. I'd like book and page numbers please.

Not that it matters, as i've pointed out how simple controls can result in complicated actions above.

You've not actually shown anything. You've speculated with out verification or indication of being correct.

As for interference, yes there will be. Armor takes up space.

Most of the armor seems to be... at best a few inches thick on the very armored portions, and significantly thinner on other areas. Not that it really matters, as you dont need nearly as much space as you think you do. I could fit into, and drive, my wife's old Chevy Aveo wearing a full set of Burgundian Gothic plate armor. With no issues. The armor in Rifts is significantly less impairing.

I would suggest you get a look at a Jet cockpit and see how confining they are. Which is the closest thing we'd have to a compairson. And then try to imagine even getting into the seat in normal clothes. Much less full armor.

it makes you move in certain ways. it restricts you from moving in other ways. It's restrictive. Even good armor is. It's partially displayed in the movmenet penalties and what not but even that is enormously generous. (We're playing a RPG, noone actually wants REAL world stuff too much in a game it's a bummer))

I live in the UP of MI. (Nothern Gun, Represent!)) It gets COLD up here in the winter. -35 type cold. We still do things. go out and what not. Have you ever driven in a winter coat and gloves?

Since i live in MI, yeah. Every year. It doesn't restrict me in any way. My gloves (hand woven wool, by my wife) dont impair my sense of touch in any meaningful way. Maybe buy a coat that actually fits you?

I have a coat that fits. I have wore gloves. If your'e trying to tell me you are 100% unrestricted wearing a coat and gloves, well... it's simply not true. I'm not trying to be insulting but anyone that's worn them know that it's not true. Nor do you have 100% sense of touch in anything past latex gloves and not even there.

Much less restrictive than full body EBA I'm sure.

why are you so sure? EBA doesn't have locked joints like medieval armor did (could only bend in one or two directions). It isn't hugely bulky (a full suit of 100MDC armor weighs less then my breast and backplate (not a LOT less, to be fair, but when you consider the breastplate is only about 1/3 of the weight of the whole suit..), and the hands dont have to be some super-thick, no-tactile response plate - in fact, if you look at most illustrations, they look like gloves, with maybe a plate on the back of the hand.

Because... we're told it is. We're shown it is. yes it's bulky. It's not 'AS' bulky as medieval armor (In some cases, but in others, yep just as bulky if not more) It has penalties to physical skills showing that your movement is restricted usually by 10% or more. And that's with it being in a forgiving RPG written by geeks, that's not even remotely trying to replicate all the difficulties of real life.

Driving is more difficult. (Not impossible.) but have you ever tried to change the radio station with gloves on? Not armored MDC gloves. Just normal gloves.

Uh, yeah, it isn't exactly hard. Reach over, turn dial. Then again, im not using some mega-inflated synthetic material 10$-at-Meijers gloves. The only part of driving in the winter i find more difficult is the idiots on the road who freak out the moment there is snow (and we live in MI, people, seriously?) and drive like morons.

I'm not sure I've actually seen a dial on a radio in over a decade. Mine have buttons. Smallish plastic buttons that are not easy to punch in with gloves, or with out hitting two or three. Maybe if you're wearing latex gloves or the little paper thin wool ones we give to kids because they lose 50 pair a year. I'm talking about real gloves.

Try it out. Then imagine you're sitting in a bipedal giant robot trying to run and manuver and you're swiping at controll surfaces in full armor.

Covered that

No you havent. You've just tried to say that you have 100% tactile sensation wearing gloves which anyone who's worn them can tell you isn't true.

If armor made your tactile feedback that bad, it wouldn't be usable in combat. Even Medieval armor, you didn't wear hand-wear that took away your sense of touch (if you see anyone pointing out articulate plate fingers, theyre full of it, that stuff never existed on the battlefield).

There's a difference between "I can feel the grip of my broad sword though my leather glove" and " Feeling and hitting the correct buttons and such on a sci fi controll surface in a robot moving at 50mph over uneven ground, bobbing and weaving through incoming fire, and taking hits as we go, while wearing a second set of fully envriomentally sealed mega damage armor, with in that robot and trying to drive while wearing it"

No. I'd imagine they're in flight suits or uniforms. Not 'skivvies'. But then I doubt robo jockies are getting out of their robots in the field just for giggles. If they do they're either shutting down the bot and doing stuff. where in they could don their armor then if needed. or evacuating a crashing bot.

There's no room for them to wear their armor (which only makes them a few inches bigger in each dimension at most), but they have room to STORE their armor for use when they get dismounted? Which is it man, you cant have it both ways.

Again you seem to be popping back and forth between PA and Robots... but sure you can have it both ways. You might not have room to have your armor on, while trying to drive as the seat/cockpits aren't built for it and the controll surfaces are wrap around and you need your hands to control it all, but there could be a storage locker behind or under the seat. Which is usually how it's described 'Minimal space for a Rifle, and suit of armor' or 'Storage locker for a rifle and a few odds and ends" etc.

Can you cite your sources on this? Where are you seeing pilots compartments on most robots? Page numbers please. Very seldom are such things shown and when they are they're typically plenty cramped.

The descriptions of the robots themselves. For the Skull Walker, the illustration, that shows a grunt walking next to the thing, in full armor. But in most cases, the description of the robot. A LOT of them have room for the stated crew + X passengers, +X MORE passengers "but cramped". Plenty. Of. Space.

If this is true, it should be enormously easy for you to cite your sources where we have pics of the pilots compartments on most robots with page numbers to back it up. Yet... I don't see any, and the only specific reference is an illustration that shows a grunt walking next to it.. out side? That doesn't show anything like you're saying.

OHHHHH... I'm sorry. You have an image of him inside the robot wearing the armor. My bad. On what page is that found, of which book? I'd like to check it out.

... are you being serious or just being a troll.

I'm being serious. I'd like to check it out. Other wise it's an unverified claim. yes?

Pilots and gunners are different. Pilots have to drive and need to be able to move more than the gunners.

Source? Oh, right, you dont have one.

Sure I do. It's alot harder to fly the jet.. chopper... anything... than it is to sit in the back seat working the weapon systems. Ask pilots from the military. Doesn't mean the back seat is untrained but their jobs are very different.

Can you cite the page of the one you're talking about though? If you're talking about the Robot command armor, that is SPECIFICLY Designed for Robot pilots in mind..... you're wrong. It's found on page 50 of NG2 and is stated that it's specificly designed for the job (Which means others are not) It's also very specific that it is NOT EBA. It's in the non EBA section and there's a note in the write up that it's not. You may be misremembering.

... or you're deliberately miss-quoting me, as i edited the post within 60 seconds and showed both sets, and even marked it as an edit.

I'm not misquoting you at all. I quoted from the post. It's still there to be read.

And again most robo jockies (And power armor pilots) have non power armor for when they're OUT of their robots. That doesn't mean they're fully armored while In them.

If they dont have room to wear the armor, they certainly dont have room to STORE the armor and put it on later.

Because.. why? Because you said so? Clothing and even ridgid armor takes up less space when it's not on a human form, than when it is. You can fold up clothes and stick them in a small bag, that tkaes up alot less room than being around, say a 6 foot tall human. Armor isn't going to fold as well by far, but it's still not taking up a full out human sized space.... lol when you're not wearing it. If nothing else you can store some of it with in otherp arts. Forearm armor in the upper arm armor that could be stored in the chest armor. upper leg armor that could slip around shin guards and the chest plate could skide down over both. You stick your gloves iny our helmet. Stick all of it in the dedicated locker space for that exact purpose.

You're making an assumption that isn't supported by anything other than your opinion,

And passages from the books that ive pointed out, and artwork, etc. You know, my "opinion" that it works the way it is shown.

But you haven't. You've said they exist. I've asked for you to support that with book and page numbers and you'vre just repeated they're all over the place, with out actually citing your source that can be checked. I have over 50 Rifts books... I'm not looking through them all to prove -your- point. lol If you want it proven YOU have to cite the source. It may exist. I may be wrong, but untill you prove it... it's well.. unproven.

You're citing one picture, of a cropped image from a robot as your basis, from which the 'armor' was created to suit the picture, not the other way around (Or they'd have shots of it standing up, and not just the cropped pic)

Uh, no, im citing about a dozen pictures in the NG book alone (ANY of the robots with a visible pilots compartment show the pilot, in armor).

And all but one of them are cited in the non EBA section as being the same thing with different styled helment. Specificly made and NOT Eba armor.

The illustration for the armor itself (the Non-Enviro one) shows THREE different robots, and the environmental set shows a FOURTH.

And the three, -disprove- your previous statement as they are specifically -not- eba armor. lol

I do. Eba is strapped to you tightly. It's -environmental- body armor. It has to form a full envriomental sea. Not easy to do when you're strapped in. Much less over an already thick layer of clothing.

... how many dozens of EBA's do you want me to show you that are very obviously NOT tightly strapped to you?

Show me. Give me books and page numbers.

Well start with Crusader; the upper chest is NOT conformed the wearer in any way (unless it was patterned on a Kittani). You dont need it to be form-fitting to form an environmental seal. It just needs to be closed and sealed. If it isnt resting against your skin, that's not hurting the seal any

Show me. And how are you going to maintain a seal with armor that's not connected to one another? and how do you plan to move if it's not close to your body when you need to move? Are we back to inflatable sumo suits?

Honestly, as presented, the armor CANT be that tightly fit - if it was, it would be 20x as expensive as each suit would have be custom fit to the wearer. This is CLEARLY not the case as the stuff is mass produced.

Or as pointed out.. you have a body glove type under to which the heavier plates are afixed... which solves that problem, and being armor, it's going to need to be fitted, -anyway-. It's not one size fits all. It's just an RPG so they seldom mention stuff like that. (But you can find it, as they mention largr DBees and stuff having to pay above and beyond for special fittings)

Because they're TRYING for the guy in a sumo suit type of manuverability? Why do you assure me it's meant to go over thick cloathing?

For one thing, because "thick clothing" is not a firemans turn out gear. Its... a sweater. The only person citing the sumo suit over and over is you.

I actually wasn't the first, but it's a good visual. People act like they've never in their lives put on multiple layers of clothes. That or when they do they suffer no loss of mobility. It's silly and absurd.

Again.... honestly go put on two or three coats and see how well you move. lol I'm not trying to be amusing. I'm being honest. Go try it out. it's not fun.

You keep coming back to that, and yet no one other than you is claiming that's what it is like.

But they are... a borg, already robotic and not as fluid or dextous as a human (Or other biological life form) Inside of MDC clothing, Inside of EBA armor, Inside of Power armor and or a robot vehicle. yeah they are claiming that sort of thing. That's the problem.

The illustrations dont support you, for one thing, nor do the descriptions.

1) Lets be honest here. the illustrations don't show any MDC clothing under EBA armor. They surely don't show people inside power armor wearing EBA armor while inside, much less wearing EBA Armor over MDC clothes while piloting PA.
2) Nor do the descriptions.

At the very very best there's one specialy built suit by NG purpose designed to be worn by _ROBOT_ pilots.

A set of fatigues is NOT a thick coat, much less two or three. Its a medium-weight synttetic fabric a few MM thick. Its just clothes, nothing more, nothing less.

And yet we don't actually -have- mdc clothing to know that. And there's a pretty wide swath of "MDC clothes' now as well. But trying to wear fatigues, under a body glove or wet suit is going to be uncomfortable as hades.

I 100% disagree. I think that's 100% exactly what they expect you to do and 100% exactly how it is. Other wise they wouldn't be able to maintain an environmental seal.

I think we've covered how that's a pile of bunk. Sealed != form fitting. It means sealed.

No. You've just said 'Nu uh'. How are you going to seal it if it doesn't fit together and form a seal? Do you think they're banging around inside the armor with space to store books or spare food between their skin and what their wearing?

Look at Stormtroopers in Star Wars. That's what you're talking about. The body suit under with the armor afixed to it.

If it's not tight (yes like spandex) how are you maintaining the seal? Are you envisioning a balloon effect with everything poofed out? lol

Because two hard portions of the armor close together, forming a seal, with your limbs inside of it.

But they don't... unless they're weilded or something.. when you put two hard pieces of most anything together.. there's not an air tight seal, unless you some how seal it with something. You're describing legos. There's no air tight seal there.

Or they use semi-rigid materials for the seals, like they must on armor like the huntsman or bushman and et al, that aren't all hard plates. Those dont go all sumo, somehow, and are hardly form-fitting tight jumpsuits.

Nor do the simi-rigid stuff oging to hold in your atmosphere. These things are basicly ground bound space suits. Not swat gear that breathes and is open to the air. yes you're going to need a flexible undersuit that's flush to contain it. You can't just snap plates together and have them bend, twist and move, and expect them to maintain integrity with out something under it. Any time you bent an arm or even a finger would vent atmo, if they were put together that way.

You wear your daily clothes under your armor, or its nearly useless.

No... it keeps you alive in MD firefights. This bumps up to another issue I have. A) The players that think their chars LIVE in their EBA and never take it off. Armor is uncomfortable at the best of times. Sure you'll wear it on patrol or on missions because you have to. When you get back to base or what evr you strip out of that crap ASAP.

Except for the part where a lot of soldiers and mercs operate away from any base for weeks or months at a time. Where are they keeping all that stuff?

Depends on what stuff you mean. If you mean their uniform... Then.. you know.. In their back pack or vehicle.. If you mean their armor when they're not in it.. You know.. their back pack or vehicle? I'm unsrue what you're envisioning? What is so hard to keep? You wear your armor when you need it. other wise you take that crap OFF. (Unless it's bound to you, borg or the like but we're generally talking about stuff you wear))

That's when you change into your 'day clothes' be it a uniform or jeans and a teeshirt. You're surely not weariing it 'under' the armor, that'd just make it that much more uncomfortable. (And none of it pictured shows the possibility of that much room under the armor anyway)

You're looking at different pictures than i am.

I might be. I asked for you to cite pages and books repeatedly. You seem unwilling or able to do so... Sooo... I can't address what you're looking at if you won't tell me.

and B) That many players tend to forget that aspect, and also forget that many towns and most cities don't let you walk down the street in the armor anyway. NG and the CS don't let you tool around in full battle rattle. They stop you at the outside of town and you either have to strip down/disarm or locker that sort of stuff.

This has nothing to do with the discussion, though

It has to do with it's part of what irks me about armor in general and I stipulated that when I was discussing this in the paragraph.

I agree with you, FWIW, that people tend to "live in their armor" unless you point out to them how absurd that is. Oddly enough, i've always thought those rules (at least for non-CS cities) are stupid in the extreme.

"Hey, normal human dude, you have to wear regular clothes and locker your armor and weapons... but Cyborg guy there can still be a heavily armored juggernaught and punch you to mist at will!"

The same cops that enforce the arms and armor thing, enforce it for cyborgs too, having their weapon systems disabled to go into town, or they're not allowed in, and or hobbled.It's usually discussed in the paragraph RIGHT AFTER the one on armor and weapons. lol

In my games, they dont let you carry weapons in town, but if you want to tool around town in your armor so you dont get insta-gibbed by a vibro-knife, no one cares. The CS, obviously, is different.

Well it depends on where you are, but I'd say that's why -my- guys tend to invest in the NG MDC jumpsuits and fatigues. So they don't get instant-killed by some punk with a vibro knife.

There's a difference between "underwear or a body glove" and full out MDC clothing under full out environmental body armor.

Uh... here's where the major issue is, i think. You have this idea that the MDC clothing is somehow restrictive or different than regular clothing, when all of the descriptions claim it isn't this way at all. Its just clothes. Really expensive clothes made out of MDC fabrics and weaves, but its just clothes. There's absolutely nothing that supports the MDC clothing as being heavy and super restrictive.

Except the weights an that it's described for the most part as being heavier and yes more bulky. lol

The MH-500 is made of MDC Microfiber fabric. I might allow that. With it's whopping 6mdc. Sure.

Right. None of the other MDC clothing has much more.

Some of it does. Some of it is heavy leather full length jackets and such. Some you have to add hard plates, etc.

The ARMORED MDC FATIGUES are different. They have plates and crap inserted in them, and i dont think anyone was trying to say you can wear that under armor. I certainly wasnt. In fact, i specifically said i wouldnt allow it.

Right, and again I would like you to go put on a full set of BDU's. Just comon non MDC, BDU's and then put a wet suit on over top of it.. then some swat gear. Let me know how it works out for you.

[eliakon]

The last post is simply to large to even attempt to reply to all at once.
But one thing needs addressing

It's a large bipedal machine that by actual phyics has a ton of problems even existing, but I know we're playing rifts so real science seldom has a place. Even in Rifts, piloting robots is not easy.

Easy enough that illiterates can do it, and there's no source of any kind saying it is difficult.

Where are you getting that illiterates are driving glitterboys? And as for sources saying it's difficult... the write up only mentions how highly trained and specialized they are about 10 times. I'd refer you to the RUE and have you read the entry.

Illiterates, you might be thinking of the CS.. but the CS Don't field Glitterboys.

Literacy is not a class skill of the Glitterboy class. ALL (100%) Glitterboy pilots are illiterate unless they choose otherwise

[eliakon]

Over and over again Pepsi is making a claim that EBA is skintight, and that to be sealed it must be so. I missed the book statement to that effect, and was wondering if someone can share it with me?

Also I am wondering where the citation that clothes are not worn under armor is found, and where the statement that robots and mecha are manually controlled with no automation of any sort is found.

Thank you

[Alrik Vas]

To my knowledge you won't find anything official on that, eliakon.

I think it's reasonable to wear a body glove type garment.under body armor. Doesn't mean it's skin tight, just more comfortable that way.

It also might be reasonable to think that many vehicles have armored pilots, with the seating, controls and other interior parts designed with this in mind.

Though none of that is official.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

It doesn't though. It doesn't say that 'unequivocally' or .. in any other way. It says that the pylons and jets fly into action the moment the gun is fired. NOT that a computer does it.

Oh, it just happens automatically by magic, then. Stop trolling.

Where are you getting that illiterates are driving glitterboys? And as for sources saying it's difficult... the write up only mentions how highly trained and specialized they are about 10 times. I'd refer you to the RUE and have you read the entry.

Illiterates, you might be thinking of the CS.. but the CS Don't field Glitterboys.

Eliakon already covered this, but yeah... Literacy is not a class skill. GB pilots (and the RPA merc pilot in RUE) and the CS Pilots... are illiterate.

It's been a while but I'm pretty sure you can't choose pilot Robot/PA under a secondary skill. No. Not 'way more than half'.

Who needs to choose it is as a secondary skill?

Lets just do the RUE:
Cyborg (no), Crazies (yes), Cyber Knights (yes), Glitter Boy (yes), Headhunter (yes), Juicer (yes, all variants, too, other than Titans), Merc Soldier (no - which is odd, since Coalition Grunts can), Robot Pilot (yes), Body Fixer (yes), City Rat (no/yes? can take Robot Combat, but not pilot RPA), Cyber Doc (yes), Operator (yes), Rogue Scholar (no), Rogue Scientist (yes), Vagabond (no), Wilderness Scout (no, even though NG makes a PA for Wilderness Scouts, lulz); Elemental Fusionist (no - cant drive anything other than a canoe), LLW/LLR (yes), Mystic (no), Shifter (no), Techno Wizard (yes), Burster (no), Dog Pack (no), Mind Melter (yes), Psi Stalker (yes/no (Civ/Wild)), Dragons (no); CS OCCs - Grunt (yes), RPA/SAM (yes), Military Spec (yes), Tech Officer (yes)

Lets count that up... 13 "no", and 18 "yes".

That's more than half. Other world books have a lot more OCCs that CAN than CANT. Almost every OCC presented in CWC can, for instance, apart from some of the burbs RCCs in the back. Same with Triax 1&2.

There's a great deal of difference between piloting a tank and a bulldozer... I'm amazed I even have to make that clear.

Guy i was just in a wedding with was an M1 driver for 13 years. He drives bulldozers now. He's the one that equated it, not me. Tanks really aren't that complicated to drive. I mean, they are, they take training.. but it isn't something that takes month and months of specialized training to learn to drive around. Combat training (keeping it cool under fire, in tense situations, etc), yes, that takes quite a bit of time, and is actually something they train for weekly, every week, because you have to keep conditioned to it. But just driving the tank? Not that difficult.

As you seem to be fond of saying, can you cite a source for that? I'm doubtful. The indication is that driving Robots isn't that easy. You don't just hit a button and it moves forward. you gotta pilot the thing. There's not gong to be software for 'Run 40 feet forward, commando roll come up, leap to the right, slide, fire your main gun, then get up, zig zag to the next bit of cover. swuat and shoot.

There's no physical way for a human to operate enough control surfaces at once to pilot a robot if they have to account for every movement of every joint.

Thus.. Implication that it's DIFFICULT... not EASy. Thank you. lol

No, what you're describing, without software assist, is not possible. Humans dont have 10 hands and 8 legs and cant respond in tens of thousands of a second, which is the kind of reaction time you'd need just to keep the thing upright while walking. In a modern jet, for instance, the computer has to make thousands of minute corrections every minute to prevent the plane from falling out of the sky in a death spiral.

Want a good example of how something this complex is handled? While it is not Rifts, the tech involved is actually more futuristic. Go watch Macross Plus (im not sure if the scene im thinking about is in the OAV or the Movie version, as both have scenes that the other doesn't contain) - there is an entire extended scene where Isamu Dyson is piloting a VF-11 Thunderbolt III and we can clearly see how ALL of the controls work. The foot pedals control movement (in Battroid, pressing both forward causes it to walk forward, one back and one forward causes it to turn, etc; controls the directionality of the thrust in Gerwalk/Fighter modes), and the twin sticks control the movement of the arms and hands (his fingers slot through rings on the joysticks, so when he opens his hand, the hands of the Battroid open, and the sticks slide along short rails on either side of the cockpit - when he slides them back, the mech draws its arms back as if to punch, etc) and maneuver the ship in Fighter mode.

Its simple actions translated into complicated ones via software - just like any modern computer controlled system (the F-22 isn't even flyable without computer assistance; its so maneuverable that if you tried to directly pilot it youd kill yourself, for instance).

Again this is a misrepresentation. In Macross, you have the protoculture stuff and the 'thinking cap' in the helmets that are basically reading the pilot's minds. That's not the control interfaces for Rifts.

You are confusing Macross and Robotech. Protoculture in Macross is the first galaxy-spanning civilization, long dead (wiped out by the Varuta), not some mystical weed. In Macross, Variable Fighters are powered by fusion plants. And have reaction mass/fuel. And they DONT have mind-reading helmets. (Thats ALSO a Robotech thing - In fact, the only experiment with this technology is in Macross Plus - the prototype flown by the antagonist, Guld, has the very first BDI (Brain-Direct Imaging) system.... and it is scrapped after it, you know, drives him into insane murderous rages. It did allow him to die like a hero, though, by mentally overriding the safeties of the YF-21 prototype so he could slam it bodily into the X-9 Ghost.

Indeed, but it's a skill none the less and one that's going to be extreamly unforgiving of mistakes. When you're booking along in PA doing 500mph a mistake is going to sting, but you keep poppingback and forth between robots and PA and they're different.

So, you admit that computer assist is required to even make PA work.. but nah, they wouldn't use that system in Robots. 'cause reasons. Are you even paying attention to what you're saying?

You do realize most EBA gives penalties right? It's listed under most every one and when they 'dont' have penalties it's listed as a special thing? Including the armors you list later having to be specificly designed and purpose built to try and eliminate the penalties that express that it is harder.

Penalties to move quietly, and climb ropes, or perform acrobatics. I dont see any penalties listed for piloting skills, or safecracking, or any other fine motor skills. Do you?

yes, it's harder to drive if you're covered in FULLY ENVIRONMENTALLY SEALED BATTLE ARMOR. lol How could it possibly NOT be more difficult??

Because it doesn't prevent you from moving your arms in articulated ways (the armor has no penalties to fine motor skills, merely to prowl (armor clacking on itself) and other physical skills) or your feet or legs. You might also note that we have jets that you have to be in a fully sealed environmental suit to pilot - one considerably more bulky than any EBA. Go watch the Mythbusters with Adam flying in the U2. Its a hardened space suit.

Please show me sources, A NUMBER OF THEM no less that SPECIFICALLY point out it's just foot pedals and some levers. I'd like book and page numbers please.

You mean OTHER than the THREE I already pointed out? (Samson, Terror Trooper, and GBK?)

Not that it matters, as i've pointed out how simple controls can result in complicated actions above.

You've not actually shown anything. You've speculated with out verification or indication of being correct.

I would suggest you get a look at a Jet cockpit and see how confining they are. Which is the closest thing we'd have to a compairson. And then try to imagine even getting into the seat in normal clothes. Much less full armor.

They get into those cockpits in flight suits that are quite a bit bulkier than even my gothic plate armor, actually. Again, go watch some Mythbusters. When Adam goes up with the Blue Angels, they have to WADDLE down the runway to the plane, thats how imobilizing the flight suits are.

it makes you move in certain ways. it restricts you from moving in other ways. It's restrictive. Even good armor is. It's partially displayed in the movmenet penalties and what not but even that is enormously generous. (We're playing a RPG, noone actually wants REAL world stuff too much in a game it's a bummer))

I have a coat that fits. I have wore gloves. If your'e trying to tell me you are 100% unrestricted wearing a coat and gloves, well... it's simply not true. I'm not trying to be insulting but anyone that's worn them know that it's not true. Nor do you have 100% sense of touch in anything past latex gloves and not even there.

Before my back injury, i could run and fight (doing re-enactment/LARPing) in the snow, in MI, in my coat. Here, ill even recommend it to you, since you're up in the boondocks of the UP:

http://www.hmoon.com/wool-coat-jacket/tracker-coat/ (I have one of the full-length, past-the-knees cuts)

Seriously, best coat you'll ever buy. But more to the point, i can fight in it and it isn't any more restricting than any other piece of clothing i own, and significantly less so than any of my armor. Doesn't restrict me from moving my arms, crossing them completely, making quick motions, nothin.

Because... we're told it is. We're shown it is. yes it's bulky. It's not 'AS' bulky as medieval armor (In some cases, but in others, yep just as bulky if not more) It has penalties to physical skills showing that your movement is restricted usually by 10% or more. And that's with it being in a forgiving RPG written by geeks, that's not even remotely trying to replicate all the difficulties of real life.

We're not told anywhere that it is bulky and restrictive, outside of a few heavy armors meant for superhumans. In fact, almost every time MDC armor is mentioned its as a marvel of lightweight super engineering with unsurpassed mobility compared to anything in the modern era.

And... all the difficulties of real life aren't necessarily what you think they are. Before my injury, i could do jumping jacks in my plate armor, roll on the ground, roll up to my feet, chase people down, etc, and i was not then (and certainly am not now) a superhuman physical specimen. Barely average. I didnt go to the gym, life weights, or do any excercise more robust than biking and walking around the neighborhood with my son or wife.

For a reality check, my plate armor: cannot move the joints side to side (just open/close), weighs almost 75lbs for the entire suit (not including the gamezon or mail hauberk), and is NOT environmentally friendly. If it is remotely warm out, you're dying of the heat.

I'm not sure I've actually seen a dial on a radio in over a decade. Mine have buttons. Smallish plastic buttons that are not easy to punch in with gloves, or with out hitting two or three. Maybe if you're wearing latex gloves or the little paper thin wool ones we give to kids because they lose 50 pair a year. I'm talking about real gloves.

Brand new (slightly used) 2013 Dodge Caravan. Stock Dodge radio. Dial for volume, dial for changing channels. Buttons for everything else.

Again you seem to be popping back and forth between PA and Robots... but sure you can have it both ways. You might not have room to have your armor on, while trying to drive as the seat/cockpits aren't built for it and the controll surfaces are wrap around and you need your hands to control it all, but there could be a storage locker behind or under the seat. Which is usually how it's described 'Minimal space for a Rifle, and suit of armor' or 'Storage locker for a rifle and a few odds and ends" etc.

Dear god you must be trolling....

RUE:
UAR-1 - one or two crew.
Spider Skull Walker - Pilot and Co Pilot and room for SIX passengers.
Titan Combat Robot - one pilot, room for TWO passengers
CWC - every single robot has at least two crew (sometimes up to five) and seats for at LEAST one passenger (smaller robots) or up to SIX (bigger robots). Every. Single. One. Even the little chicken walker that is barely bigger than a Samson.
NG - the small robots have enough room for their crews, bedrolls, and additional gear; the larger robots are crew +1-4 passengers (not counting things like the behemoth).
Triax - other than the Dynamax, which is kind of small and can only fit one passenger (cramped), all the other robots can fit at least two passengers, some as many as TWELVE, (average seems to be about four, comfortably), and the Devastator has a four-man PA squad as part of its standard operating force and can fit six passengers. Heading into Triax 2... all of the robots other than the smaller artillery bots and one of the flyers have space for passengers, sometimes as many as 4 (usually two) but these new bots are a lot smaller than Triax's older designs, (some of them barely bigger than PA). Also, another mention, in the new Ulti-Max II description, that the pilot uses hand controls and foot pedals "like a manned robot".

If this is true, it should be enormously easy for you to cite your sources where we have pics of the pilots compartments on most robots with page numbers to back it up.

Since ive seen a dozen in NG1 alone in the last 10 minutes, im not going to do your homework for you. Pick up the book and page through, or admit you're too lazy and want to avoid being proven wrong. (And check out all those guys piloting NG robots... IN ARMOR).

Can you cite the page of the one you're talking about though? If you're talking about the Robot command armor, that is SPECIFICLY Designed for Robot pilots in mind..... you're wrong. It's found on page 50 of NG2 and is stated that it's specificly designed for the job (Which means others are not) It's also very specific that it is NOT EBA. It's in the non EBA section and there's a note in the write up that it's not. You may be misremembering.

... or you're deliberately miss-quoting me, as i edited the post within 60 seconds and showed both sets, and even marked it as an edit.

I'm not misquoting you at all. I quoted from the post. It's still there to be read.

Indeed it is, and this is what it says:

Its not an armored pilot suit, though, its full-up medium EBA. And you keep making a big deal about "EBA!" - there are plenty of EBA's that are smaller/slimmer/less confining than some of the "armored pilot suits". (edit) It is not, in fact, EBA. The helmet doesn't seal. But it is obviously bigger and bulkier than some of the EBAs on the next few pages. (further edit) i was both right and wrong. There is an EBA version later in the book (the Trekker).

I made that edit within ~30 seconds of the original post, hours before your reply. Ergo, you deliberate truncated/ignored the part where i clarified it.

Clothing and even ridgid armor takes up less space when it's not on a human form, than when it is. You can fold up clothes and stick them in a
And the three, -disprove- your previous statement as they are specifically -not- eba armor.

Rigid Armor takes up far less space when you're wearing it. It adds a few inches to your frame. When in a pile, it takes up a great deal of space.. because it's rigid. My gothic plate (which is analagous to EBA here, as it has rigid plates covering the legs, chest, arms, et al, just like EBA) takes up two 40 gallon tuperware tubs when its not on me. Thats why i tended to drive to events with it already on.

And as for them not proving the point.. uh.. what? Yeah, its not EBA... its even bigger and bulkier than the EBA suit 8 pages later. So, if they can pilot it with the non-EBA suit, they can pilot it with the EBA suit on.

Show me. Give me books and page numbers.

No. Ive cited dozens of examples, including illustrations. Not providing page numbers is hardly an issue. You dont need to go looking through 50 books when i clearly tell you its in a book. You want to be a lazy troll, that's on you. You're the one claiming its all form fitting. Prove it.

Because the plates dont have to seal to each other. You can use interstitial material to form a seal.. you know, like the Gladiator clearly does, or the Crusader, or ANY of the EBA, really (look at the crotch areas). Thats not plates. Thats MDC fabrics and padding.

and being armor, it's going to need to be fitted, -anyway-. It's not one size fits all. It's just an RPG so they seldom mention stuff like that. (But you can find it, as they mention largr DBees and stuff having to pay above and beyond for special fittings)

Yeah, because they arent shaped like humans or are MUCH larger than the default "one size fits most" size.

I actually wasn't the first, but it's a good visual. People act like they've never in their lives put on multiple layers of clothes. That or when they do they suffer no loss of mobility. It's silly and absurd.

Whats absurd is you acting like multiple layers of clothing is the equivalent of firemans turnout gear (which is effectively VERY heavy leather armor). I can wear my Tracker coat with a full hauberken of mail underneat it (well, i could before hanging 40lbs of chain mail off of my shoulders became a medical no-no). Yes, it impairs me. Im not 100%. But im not crawling around like a feeble infant. Im MAYBE 10% less mobile and agile... at MOST. I can still swing a sword without impairment and fight. And thats 40lbs of steel hanging off my shoulders, with a calf-length wool coat that is several layers thick in some places on.

But they are... a borg, already robotic and not as fluid or dextous as a human (Or other biological life form) Inside of MDC clothing, Inside of EBA armor, Inside of Power armor and or a robot vehicle. yeah they are claiming that sort of thing. That's the problem.

If by "they" you mean.. one guy, who started the thread and was immediately shut down?

1) Lets be honest here. the illustrations don't show any MDC clothing under EBA armor.

But they do show clothing (and uniforms!) under EBA. CWC, pictures of the Prosek Family and some of the generals, and Lone Star (pictures of the officers, you can see their uniform neckline's (with insignia on them in some cases) sticking up from under the armor when they have helmets off. Again, MDC clothing isn't different from clothing. Its just really expensive clothing made from MDC fibers. Its not any more restricting than wearing clothes.

But they don't... unless they're weilded or something.. when you put two hard pieces of most anything together.. there's not an air tight seal, unless you some how seal it with something. You're describing legos. There's no air tight seal there.

.... it would seal the same way the helmet seals to the armor. With a locking mechanism. The same way hardened pressure suits seal now, in real life. I see more Mythbusters in your future.

You're looking at different pictures than i am.

I might be. I asked for you to cite pages and books repeatedly. You seem unwilling or able to do so... Sooo... I can't address what you're looking at if you won't tell me.

Oh, no, i meant that as a backhanded insinuation that you're imagining things. You're looking at the same pictures the rest of us are, you're just seeing things that aren't there.

The same cops that enforce the arms and armor thing, enforce it for cyborgs too, having their weapon systems disabled to go into town, or they're not allowed in, and or hobbled.It's usually discussed in the paragraph RIGHT AFTER the one on armor and weapons. lol

The only one laughing here is me. They can disable all the weapons they want. When he can still PUNCH you and put his hand through your chest, there's nothing that can be done about that.

Uh... here's where the major issue is, i think. You have this idea that the MDC clothing is somehow restrictive or different than regular clothing, when all of the descriptions claim it isn't this way at all. Its just clothes. Really expensive clothes made out of MDC fabrics and weaves, but its just clothes. There's absolutely nothing that supports the MDC clothing as being heavy and super restrictive.

Except the weights an that it's described for the most part as being heavier and yes more bulky. lol

Oh, lets examine that:

There is no weight listed on the non-up-armored MDC clothing; the Ultra-300 Armored Fatigues (the ones that have MDC ceramic and composite plates added to the thights, chest, etc) weight.. 7lbs.

The Streetwolf line ranges from 2lbs for a racing jacket, to 8lbs for a firemans jacket... all comparable to their real life counterparts. I'd actually wager my nice wool trench coat i wear on "formal" occasions is probably heavier than 8lbs, to be honest. They have a few "Armored Combat" coats - that weight up to 20lbs - but those have plates added in.

The Executive suits weight 2lbs, 1lb for the pants/shirt. Hardly heavier than my current clothes.

Nothing is pointing to them being restrictive except for the long, heavy, armored coats.

the NG Hunter Suit from the Adventures in Dino Swamp can be made into fully environmental gear with the addition of a helmet and gloves. So it cant be that hard to create EBA... since you can literally get EBA clothing.

Moving to Triax... the stuff in Triax one is heavier (4-12lbs) but is still listed as being just like normal clothing. Doesn't appear to be anything new in Triax 2.

Checking Merc Ops... nothing new there. 6MDC suit of fatigues.

NONE of the descriptions contain any reference to them being heavier or bulkier than regular clothing. Not. One.

While we're on the topic of being unable to wear armor and pilot things because of not enough tactile feedback, etc, cant fit in the cockpit, etc...

I'd like to introduce you to CS Rocket Cycles and Sky Cycles. Both require quite a bit more coordination to pilot than a tank, i'd imagine, rocketing along at nearly the speed of sound. The CS Warbird and Scout Rocket Cycles, in particular, have cockpits that are absolutely miniscule - and the pilots are shown wearing CA-4 heavy armor or CA-7 Special Forces armor. Same with the OG Sky Cycle and the newer Windjammer.

edited for quoting issues.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'm not going to take the time to reply to all that.

You refuse to cite books and page numbers, therefore you can't back up anything you say. Untill you do, it's nothing more than claims with out foundation. Go through and cite the sources you claim you have multiples of. Give us books and page numbers to back up your claims. You claim it's easy and you have multiple instances of these things yet can't seem to toss out a page number for verification.

When you do, everyone can go and read the page, and in doing so, either prove you right, or be able to quote the book on said page and prove you wrong.

Like I did when you claimed things about the glitter boy, that were not in the book, and corrected you on the flight suit worn inside the glitter boys, which you claimed was thick eba, and was also wrong.

[eliakon]

I'm not going to take the time to reply to all that.

You refuse to cite books and page numbers, therefore you can't back up anything you say. Untill you do, it's nothing more than claims with out foundation. Go through and cite the sources you claim you have multiples of. Give us books and page numbers to back up your claims. You claim it's easy and you have multiple instances of these things yet can't seem to toss out a page number for verification.

When you do, everyone can go and read the page, and in doing so, either prove you right, or be able to quote the book on said page and prove you wrong.

Like I did when you claimed things about the glitter boy, that were not in the book, and corrected you on the flight suit worn inside the glitter boys, which you claimed was thick eba, and was also wrong.

Which parts do you want citations for?
There is a HUGE discussion going on with dozens of points.
And to be frank not all of it even has citation requests...or the requests are being ask of you and not being filled.
It is easy to just say "nah its all your fault your not doing the work" when both sides are making unfounded claims left and right.

This is possibly why smaller focused posts instead of giant shotgun ones are more useful. It allows for addressing the portions that are being dealt with, and punting on the others. With out looking like one is simply trying to avoid 10 issues by demanding a source for 1 other unrelated one.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Not trying to be funny, but the parts where he made claims and I asked him to cite the books and page numbers for them and he just hand waved it off and said there were plenty of examples, or that he wouldn't prove his claims.

I don't need to post three or four times asking for the proof. He was asked, often more than once to prove his words. he hasn't. That's fine but his claims remain unfounded untill he does. I can't make him prove his words. I already think they're false. They'll remain false untill there's canon books with page numbers to support the claims he's trying to make.

[say652]

Not trying to be funny, but the parts where he made claims and I asked him to cite the books and page numbers for them and he just hand waved it off and said there were plenty of examples, or that he wouldn't prove his claims.

I don't need to post three or four times asking for the proof. He was asked, often more than once to prove his words. he hasn't. That's fine but his claims remain unfounded untill he does. I can't make him prove his words. I already think they're false. They'll remain false untill there's canon books with page numbers to support the claims he's trying to make.

Several classes offer unlimited cybernetics and Bionic without changing to a pretty useless cyborg occ.

[Pepsi Jedi]

That was never something I contested, you might want to talk to the others talking about shifting to the Borg OCC. To be honest I haven't looked up that aspect of it. Others have.

[eliakon]

Not trying to be funny, but the parts where he made claims and I asked him to cite the books and page numbers for them and he just hand waved it off and said there were plenty of examples, or that he wouldn't prove his claims.

I don't need to post three or four times asking for the proof. He was asked, often more than once to prove his words. he hasn't. That's fine but his claims remain unfounded untill he does. I can't make him prove his words. I already think they're false. They'll remain false untill there's canon books with page numbers to support the claims he's trying to make.

Which is, as I pointed out what 1? 2? of the points (where the pictures of the cockpits are and where it says that some of the mecha use pedals and levers)
That doesn't cover any of the other issues....
Like the unsupported claim of yours about how EBA works, or your unsupported claim about the penalties of armor.
Or the discussion on how robots would/would not need to be fly-by-wire

I am assuming you are conceding the issue of who can take the piloting skills, and the ease of them since it was shown that the majority of the classes CAN take the skill, and of them virtually none are literate.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I don't need to post three or four times asking for the proof. He was asked, often more than once to prove his words. he hasn't. That's fine but his claims remain unfounded untill he does. I can't make him prove his words. I already think they're false. They'll remain false untill there's canon books with page numbers to support the claims he's trying to make.

The burden is not on me to provide proof.

You're the one making unsubstantiated head-canon claims. (Robots are manually piloted with no computer aids or controls, EBA is tightly sealed and super-restrictive (but non-EBA isnt?), etc. The onus is on YOU to provide proof of your unsupported theory.

You're not going to find any. But i did provide plenty of references to counter your unsupported theory (particularly about robots/PA and how they operate) - perhaps not with page numbers, but with, at the very least, book references. It would not have been hard for you to pick up one of the four books (maybe five or six?) i referenced and find the stuff i'm talking about.

[say652]

I fell for this before. The old do you actually hedge the book or have you read the book.

Yes on both accounts. And proof.
Buha!!

You read it, I read it and until I post the page number(as I have in the past) it's all your wrong.
Post the numbers and suddenly I'm write?

Seriously???

EAD.

[Jefffar]

This is starting to make the Republican Presidential Primaries look reasonable.

Stop taking this stuff personally people.