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SpiritInterface wrote: wrote:

Glistam wrote: wrote:
I have also interpreted the Metamorphosis time limit to simply the length of time the Dragon can stay in one shape without changing. So if the dragon morphs again the timer "resets."

We interpret it to be the total amount of time in a 24 hour period the dragon can be transformed. At levels where their time limit exceeds 24 hours the need to rest 1 hour before changing forms. This is for hatchlings only since most adult dragons can maintain their transformation indefinitely.

Prysus wrote:Greetings and Salutations. In Rifts, you can look at Sourcebook One (original), page 10 for a bit more official information on dragon metamorphosis duration. Short answer: The time listed is for a 48 hour period.

Dragons & Gods has slightly different info, of course. This came out after, but is also for a different setting (and compatible with Rifts, but not actually Rifts). Farewell and safe journeys.

Prysus wrote:

SpiritInterface wrote:

Glistam wrote:I have also interpreted the Metamorphosis time limit to simply the length of time the Dragon can stay in one shape without changing. So if the dragon morphs again the timer "resets."

We interpret it to be the total amount of time in a 24 hour period the dragon can be transformed. At levels where their time limit exceeds 24 hours the need to rest 1 hour before changing forms. This is for hatchlings only since most adult dragons can maintain their transformation indefinitely.

Greetings and Salutations. In Rifts, you can look at Sourcebook One (original), page 10 for a bit more official information on dragon metamorphosis duration. Short answer: The time listed is for a 48 hour period.

Dragons & Gods has slightly different info, of course. This came out after, but is also for a different setting (and compatible with Rifts, but not actually Rifts). Farewell and safe journeys.

Razzinold wrote:Chiang-Ku first appeared in New England (I believe) and I know they are in Dragons and Gods.
Thanks for the tip on Psyscape and SOT.

SpiritInterface wrote: wrote:

Glistam wrote: wrote:
I have also interpreted the Metamorphosis time limit to simply the length of time the Dragon can stay in one shape without changing. So if the dragon morphs again the timer "resets."

We interpret it to be the total amount of time in a 24 hour period the dragon can be transformed. At levels where their time limit exceeds 24 hours the need to rest 1 hour before changing forms. This is for hatchlings only since most adult dragons can maintain their transformation indefinitely.

Prysus wrote:Greetings and Salutations. In Rifts, you can look at Sourcebook One (original), page 10 for a bit more official information on dragon metamorphosis duration. Short answer: The time listed is for a 48 hour period.

Dragons & Gods has slightly different info, of course. This came out after, but is also for a different setting (and compatible with Rifts, but not actually Rifts). Farewell and safe journeys.

48 hours is for an adult dragon, it's 2 hours per level of experience for hatchlings. I guess they could have their 2 hours, duck out of site behind a bush, tree, building change and then instantly change back for another two hours.

If I adopted the above mentioned strategy that the means the character could simply change their eye colour, skin pigmentation, length of hair every hour and fifty minutes and never have to go in Dragon form again.

Razzinold wrote:Can anyone suggest some books where I can find some cool dragon variants other than Conversion Book One and Dragons and Gods ?

Rifts: Ultimate Edition

• Cat's Eye
• Flame Wind
• Forest Runner
• Royal Frilled

Conversion Book 1

• Basilisk
• Cockatrice
• Fire Dragon
• Great Horned Dragon
• Hydra
• Ice Dragon
• Kukulcan
• Night Stalker
• Serpent of the Wind
• Thunder Lizard
• Wooly Dragon

Rifts: England

• Chiang-Ku

Rifts: Japan

• Shikome Kido-Mi
• Kumo-Mi
• Asama-Tatsu

Rifts: Psyscape

• Zaayr Crystal Dragon

Rifts: Canada

• Ogopogo

Rifts: Lemuria

• Leviathan
• Ghost Dragon
• Hydros Dragon
• Octo Dragon
• Sand Dragon

Glistam wrote:

Razzinold wrote:Chiang-Ku first appeared in New England (I believe) and I know they are in Dragons and Gods.
Thanks for the tip on Psyscape and SOT.

SpiritInterface wrote: wrote:

Glistam wrote: wrote:
I have also interpreted the Metamorphosis time limit to simply the length of time the Dragon can stay in one shape without changing. So if the dragon morphs again the timer "resets."

We interpret it to be the total amount of time in a 24 hour period the dragon can be transformed. At levels where their time limit exceeds 24 hours the need to rest 1 hour before changing forms. This is for hatchlings only since most adult dragons can maintain their transformation indefinitely.

Prysus wrote:Greetings and Salutations. In Rifts, you can look at Sourcebook One (original), page 10 for a bit more official information on dragon metamorphosis duration. Short answer: The time listed is for a 48 hour period.

Dragons & Gods has slightly different info, of course. This came out after, but is also for a different setting (and compatible with Rifts, but not actually Rifts). Farewell and safe journeys.

48 hours is for an adult dragon, it's 2 hours per level of experience for hatchlings. I guess they could have their 2 hours, duck out of site behind a bush, tree, building change and then instantly change back for another two hours.

If I adopted the above mentioned strategy that the means the character could simply change their eye colour, skin pigmentation, length of hair every hour and fifty minutes and never have to go in Dragon form again.

As a G.M. I would rule the dragon must revert back to true form in order to reset the timer on that ability. I would probably make them have to spend at least 10 minutes in their natural form in order to prevent abuse.

Prysus wrote:

Razzinold wrote:

Prysus wrote:Greetings and Salutations. In Rifts, you can look at Sourcebook One (original), page 10 for a bit more official information on dragon metamorphosis duration. Short answer: The time listed is for a 48 hour period.

Dragons & Gods has slightly different info, of course. This came out after, but is also for a different setting (and compatible with Rifts, but not actually Rifts). Farewell and safe journeys.

48 hours is for an adult dragon, it's 2 hours per level of experience for hatchlings. I guess they could have their 2 hours, duck out of site behind a bush, tree, building change and then instantly change back for another two hours.

If I adopted the above mentioned strategy that the means the character could simply change their eye colour, skin pigmentation, length of hair every hour and fifty minutes and never have to go in Dragon form again.

Greetings and Salutations. Your response implies you didn't bother reading the reference I provided. Though I suppose your response could just mean you think hatchlings have better metamorphosis than adults, and that you think 1st and 4th level dragons can only refer to Adult dragons, but I'd find such an interpretation rather odd.

The time listed (if you're using the original Sourcebook One ruling) is 2 hours per level ... within a 48 hour period. That's regardless of the number of forms taken in that time (it's a duration, not a quantity factor). After you use your time, you have to wait 24 hours before you can use it again. This is all presented in the book and page I mentioned.

Many don't know of it's existence in that book (possibly not even having a copy), or willfully ignore it. After all, it can be viewed as restrictive. With that said, it's the only official rule I'm aware of within an actual Rifts book. Most other Palladium products (Dragons & Gods included) don't specify beyond listing a number of hours per level (which can be interpreted in multiple ways). Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Prysus wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:The problem is that said rule was edited out of the revised edition.

Greetings and Salutations. Actually, the entire Question & Answer section was removed.

Blue_Lion wrote:That means if it is still a valid rule can be called into question.

People are welcome to do so. That doesn't make it any less accurate of a reference, which is all I presented it as. I never once said it was the rule all people must use without question. People are welcome to feel it's no longer valid. People are also welcome to ignore any rules they see fit. People can do a lot of things. None of that changes that it's a printed reference in an official Palladium product regarding the topic.

Blue_Lion wrote:It is a rule only listed in a book that was changed/revised before it was changed. The other product dragons & gods was where they moved the base dragons information to. So if the information did not fallow it with the change in the book it can viewed as a rule no longer relvent.

Dragons & Gods did alter the rule slightly. It states that after all the time is used it only takes a hatchling 12 hours before they can use it again (instead of 24). It doesn't address a time period other than that. 2 hours per level could mean change as many times as you want, could intend for the old rule (within a 48 hour period to remain), or meant to cut 48 hours down to 24 (cutting it in half like the cool down time). Dragons & Gods isn't very specific on the matter.

Blue_Lion wrote:It may have been on the books at one time but the book it was in was changed and it was removed making its validity questionable.

(PB has only officially listed changing a handful of books, material dropped from any changed book and not reprinted else where can reasonably assumed no longer valid.)

One can definitely have that logic. Of course that logic also means that you think Palladium intentionally removed the ability for characters to jump (Rifts, original rule book had rules for jumping after a certain printing) and that the ability for Game Masters to roll up new monsters is now void (because original Rifts rule book had a random roll table for new monsters). However, I don't think either one of those are very good logic.

I, for one, tend to follow the philosophy that a rule remains unless it's changed or contradicted by a new rule. That's my personal stance, but people can decide how they'd like. I'm not even sure if as a G.M. I'd use the rule in Sourcebook One (original) in my games. However, I enjoy presenting information from the books whenever possible so people can make informed decisions. Farewell and safe journeys.

Nightmask wrote:

Glistam wrote:

Razzinold wrote:Chiang-Ku first appeared in New England (I believe) and I know they are in Dragons and Gods.
Thanks for the tip on Psyscape and SOT.

SpiritInterface wrote: wrote:

Glistam wrote: wrote:
I have also interpreted the Metamorphosis time limit to simply the length of time the Dragon can stay in one shape without changing. So if the dragon morphs again the timer "resets."

We interpret it to be the total amount of time in a 24 hour period the dragon can be transformed. At levels where their time limit exceeds 24 hours the need to rest 1 hour before changing forms. This is for hatchlings only since most adult dragons can maintain their transformation indefinitely.

Prysus wrote:Greetings and Salutations. In Rifts, you can look at Sourcebook One (original), page 10 for a bit more official information on dragon metamorphosis duration. Short answer: The time listed is for a 48 hour period.

Dragons & Gods has slightly different info, of course. This came out after, but is also for a different setting (and compatible with Rifts, but not actually Rifts). Farewell and safe journeys.

48 hours is for an adult dragon, it's 2 hours per level of experience for hatchlings. I guess they could have their 2 hours, duck out of site behind a bush, tree, building change and then instantly change back for another two hours.

If I adopted the above mentioned strategy that the means the character could simply change their eye colour, skin pigmentation, length of hair every hour and fifty minutes and never have to go in Dragon form again.

As a G.M. I would rule the dragon must revert back to true form in order to reset the timer on that ability. I would probably make them have to spend at least 10 minutes in their natural form in order to prevent abuse.

How would one abuse such or forcing a 10 minute wait on them prevent it? Particularly when mages with metamorphic spells can recast said spells and maintain them indefinitely (helped along by the various boosts and extra sources of PPE that are around).

Prysus wrote:Greetings and Salutations. Your response implies you didn't bother reading the reference I provided. Though I suppose your response could just mean you think hatchlings have better metamorphosis than adults, and that you think 1st and 4th level dragons can only refer to Adult dragons, but I'd find such an interpretation rather odd.

The time listed (if you're using the original Sourcebook One ruling) is 2 hours per level ... within a 48 hour period. That's regardless of the number of forms taken in that time (it's a duration, not a quantity factor). After you use your time, you have to wait 24 hours before you can use it again. This is all presented in the book and page I mentioned.

Many don't know of it's existence in that book (possibly not even having a copy), or willfully ignore it. After all, it can be viewed as restrictive. With that said, it's the only official rule I'm aware of within an actual Rifts book. Most other Palladium products (Dragons & Gods included) don't specify beyond listing a number of hours per level (which can be interpreted in multiple ways). Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Glistam wrote:

Nightmask wrote:How would one abuse such or forcing a 10 minute wait on them prevent it? Particularly when mages with metamorphic spells can recast said spells and maintain them indefinitely (helped along by the various boosts and extra sources of PPE that are around).

When you need to maintain your disguise but time is running out, it's a lot easier to sneak away and spend only 15 seconds dragon-sized than it is to sneak away and spend only 10 minutes (or more) dragon-sized. That's the "abuse" I would look to prevent.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Dog_O_War wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:So if someone walked up and kicked you, gravity is the only thing keeping you from flying backwards? Or does your strength at resisting the kick factor in?

If you're talking real-life, there's no, "strength at resisting the kick", all there is is physics, which would see a tiny body flying backwards, dragged down by gravity.

If you're talking in-game, there is no such ability itemed as "strength at resisting the kick".

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Same thing with the dragon. You can kick it all you want but your strength is piddly compared to it's.

Its strength has no factor in any way, shape or form in affecting physics, unless it's holding on to something, as Blue_Lion has correctly stated.

Otherwise, book and page number where it says differently. Hell, produce anything other than a hand-written note from your parent or guardian (because favoritism) that would support your argument.

LOL Trust me. there's more than gravity. I forget that some people have never actually been in a fight.

Yes if someone kicks you, you can resist flying backwards with your own strength. In effect you push forward to resist flying backwards. Other wise any time someone bumped into us in a mall or something we'd go flying away. Which I think we can all agree is silly. No you don't have to be holding onto the ground to do it.

(I have been in a fight and was a hand to hand instructor for the army.)
You are mistaking avoiding knock down with being thrown. What keeps you from falling when kicked or punched is how you maintain your balance, that is why you spread your feet in most combat stances. Normally a kick does not have the force to send a fighter fling as the backlash would do the same for the one kicking as well.(think about it this way if your punch/kick had the force to move some ones mass then an upwards punch would lift them off the ground regardless of how strong they are.) But does have the force to throw off a person balance. Balance keeps you upright.

What holds you in place is gravity and the friction with the ground. If the force of a impact accedes that even if you maintain balance and upright you will move with the impact.

With most people it easier to topple them by throwing there balance off than to strike with force to toss them backwards.

It would be like when a super strong super hero catches a moving train and is pushed back but can stay standing. Giving the size of a dragon cat with its strength it is unlikely to get knocked down but would be knocked back or thrown fairly easily.

**Edit--I tried to think of a time in a fight that I pushed against an attack but I could not think of any. The closes I can think of is tighting up my core to avoid getting the wind knock out of me. When hit I do not push against the blow but tend to rock or roll with it weather I want to or not. I do use some leg strength to stay up right and maintain balance but never actually pushed against an attack not even when I block, there is always some movement with the blow never against it. The closes I seen to some one pushing against a blow was some one running into a fist and he got knocked flat.

Pushing against a blow would be like getting ground pounded with your head on the ground. Very bad thing to have happen well at least for a person.

Dog_O_War wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:LOL Trust me. there's more than gravity. I forget that some people have never actually been in a fight.

Why would anyone trust you? You seem to believe in some ability not based in truth labelled, "strength in resisting the kick".

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Yes if someone kicks you, you can resist flying backwards with your own strength.

I don't know if you actually read my post, but I did say that physics are involved, as opposed to "strength at resisting the kick". Like, if you brace yourself somehow, using your strength, similar to how Blue_Lion has stated previously, which you were arguing against - again, in favour of the ability you've coined as, "strength in resisting the kick".

Pepsi Jedi wrote:In effect you push forward to resist flying backwards.

Gee, it's almost like some kind of physics are involved. Too bad it doesn't have a law governing it... I swear, Newton was supposed to make one regarding this.

Oh well, I guess we'll just call it, "strength at resisting the kick"

Prysus wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Like the before mentiond Carlotta the white, It says she's a 'hatchling' but can maintain her metamorph ability for 14 hours at a stretch. Which might seem limiting untill you read the rest and see that she can turn invisible at will. So... if she came up against the deadline. All she has to do is step out side a building, go invisible and shift into her dragon form. Now in a crowded city that might be a bit more problematic but not really. She could jump out a window invisible, shift to dragon form and fly off. Or what have you (Go out back etc.)

Greetings and Salutations. Okay, you have my curious now, are you using World Book 1: Vampire Kingdoms (original) or Rifts Vampire Sourcebook? I don't have Rifts Vampire Sourcebook yet (I have all the books before that, but that's where my financial situation changed and I stopped buying all the books). In RWB1: Vampire Kingdoms (original, 6th Printing) on page 109 though, we have these quotes ...

Natural Dragon Abilities: Metamorphosis: Can maintain the form of a woman (or any other) for 14 hours per every 48 hour period.

This one mentions the 48 hour period.

Surprisingly, few people realize that Carlotta is a dragon.

The book actually calls it "surprising" that she has maintained this ruse.

Few have made the connection between her and the nameless dragon that is known to frequently join Sir Lazarious on missions.

All the original Rangers know that Carlotta is a dragon and keep her secret. However, this knowledge makes Carlotta nervous.

So people know about the dragon, they just haven't put the two together. The second quote (a "Note" at the end of her description) tells that the original members know. Since she's nervous about them knowing, I'd think she didn't want them to know (but couldn't hide it). Also since they keep her secret, it stands to reason they help cover for her.

To maintain her secret, she and Lazarious disappear for hours or days at a time. [snip] Carlotta the woman will often wander off or go on reconnaissance alone, or with Sir Lazarious, so that she may revert to her dragon form and save her metamorphosis for when she must associate with humanoids.

So she disappears for hours or days, and does a lot of things alone. This helps her use metamorphosis with the time duration (clearly listed in her natural abilities).

Now, since I don't have Rifts Vampire Sourcebook where Reid's Rangers were updated, I don't know how much of these quotes remained. It's possible this all changed. However, it does seem to have been a rule at least at one point (and not just within Sourcebook One). I'd check more dragon hatchling NPC for references, but unfortunately I don't know Rifts well enough to know their locations. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Prysus wrote: Note: I'll be very curious to check out Carlotta in Rifts Vampire Sourecbook to see if the "48 hours" note is still there or not. If a lot of her write-up and/or stats are cut/paste, but that line removed, it would definitely go a further way to show intent. If it's still there, we're back to "could be an oversight or could be intentional."

Prysus wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:You typed-
"Many don't know of it's existence in that book (possibly not even having a copy), or willfully ignore it."

That is what you setting a tone that those that know about the dropped rule are wrong if they do not use it. Willfully ingoring something is knowing something is valid and ignoring it. If we talk about RAW that is saying they are ignoring a valid rule and are wrong.

No, that's me saying a lot of people don't know the rule exists, and many of those that do make a conscious decision to ignore/not use it. Glistam is an excellent example. He knew it, doesn't think it makes sense, and ignores it. But it's a conscious decision to ignore that rule. I make lots of decisions not to use various rules in the books. However, I prefer to know they first exist, so that I can make an informed decision.

Blue_Lion wrote:You also typed-
Your response implies you didn't bother reading the reference I provided. Though I suppose your response could just mean you think hatchlings have better metamorphosis than adults, and that you think 1st and 4th level dragons can only refer to Adult dragons, but I'd find such an interpretation rather odd.

Again that comes across as saying you did not check the rule, so are wrong.

Yes, he quoted my reference and then said it meant something else. He was wrong. He didn't have the book so he couldn't read it. I get it. But he still thought the rule meant something it did not (so what he said was wrong). I'll give a different example:

If you say "RUE has a hand to hand for dragon on page 349" and then I come along and say "No, those rules are only for humans." Then I'd be wrong. Maybe in my house rules only humans can have hand to hand, which is my right, or maybe I just don't use the "optional" hand to hand used. Maybe I went from memory or maybe I don't own the book. Regardless, to say that page 349 doesn't have a hand to hand for dragons is wrong. This is just a fact. Anyone can pick up the book and see that it's there. If someone makes the claim it's not there, or it means something different, it doesn't matter why they said it, they still said something untrue/wrong.

Blue_Lion wrote:I replied to your post, with the the way I understand it. If i misunderstand you that can happen you only need to clear up the issue it is not a personal attack on you in any way.

Cool. Wish I thought of that. Oh ... wait ...

Blue_Lion wrote:

Prysus wrote:I'm not even sure if as a G.M. I'd use the rule in Sourcebook One (original) in my games. However, I enjoy presenting information from the books whenever possible so people can make informed decisions. Farewell and safe journeys.

No you presented it as any one not using it was wrong.

Hey, I did. Then you inferred I'm a liar, and decided to declare what I meant because you feel you know what I was trying to say better than I do. As I said before, this isn't the first time you did this to me in a thread either. So if you're not trying to launch personal attacks, then stop acting like it. If you're willing to admit there are possibilities for misunderstandings, then don't automatically revert to thinking I'm lying and that your interpretation of my post is the only possible right one.

Blue_Lion wrote:[Odd that you accuse me of misquoting you and changing your point but are doing that in the this very post. My Argument I stated was by removing a rule from **all active books** by editing out in a revised edition it can be considered void, but as long as a rule is in any current edition of any book it can still be valid.

RUE is a revised/updated rule book of RMB. The jumping rules were removed. As for "current edition of any book," I just haven't forgotten our last encounter either.

Blue_Lion wrote:(Note on rifts boards use rifts stats.)

So you it needs to be only Rifts when it suits your needs, but you can use any setting when it suits your needs. The irony of this specific topic is even more hilarious, since you're the one arguing a Palladium Fantasy Sourcebook (Dragons & Gods, which is clearly labeled as a PF book and found in the PF section of the PB store) is more valid than a Rifts Sourcebook (which by the way, original Sourcebook One is still available as a PDF by Palladium through DriveThruRPG, with no intention to discontinue it).

Note: I continue to wait for the link to the jumping rules on the Cutting Room Floor. I don't think they're on there like you claim (and I did look).

Anyways, farewell and safe journeys once again.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:So your point is what? To agree with me in terms you prefer? You've said nothing but "Pepsi's right" in an unkind way.

Dog_O_War wrote:If you're talking real-life, there's no, "strength at resisting the kick", all there is is physics, which would see a tiny body flying backwards, dragged down by gravity.

If you're talking in-game, there is no such ability itemed as "strength at resisting the kick".

Pepsi Jedi wrote:So if someone walked up and kicked you, gravity is the only thing keeping you from flying backwards? Or does your strength at resisting the kick factor in?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:Well if the 4 pound dragon is holding to something to anchor it then yes it will not move but if it standing on the ground it is gravity that holds it in place not its PS.

So if someone walked up and kicked you, gravity is the only thing keeping you from flying backwards? Or does your strength at resisting the kick factor in?

Same thing with the dragon. You can kick it all you want but your strength is piddly compared to it's.

Dog_O_War wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:So your point is what? To agree with me in terms you prefer? You've said nothing but "Pepsi's right" in an unkind way.

Actually, this is what I said:

Dog_O_War wrote:If you're talking real-life, there's no, "strength at resisting the kick", all there is is physics, which would see a tiny body flying backwards, dragged down by gravity.

If you're talking in-game, there is no such ability itemed as "strength at resisting the kick".

I said this in response to you saying,

Pepsi Jedi wrote:So if someone walked up and kicked you, gravity is the only thing keeping you from flying backwards? Or does your strength at resisting the kick factor in?

I asked you to provide any sort of reference other than a hand-written note from your parent or guardian as any sort of proof that this ability you seem to think exists actually does, which you've coined as "strength at resisting the kick".

But you didn't provide any sort of proof; I'll cut you a break - I'll accept a note from your parent or guardian.

Now, we'll go back a bit and find out why I've otherwise challenged what you said.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:Well if the 4 pound dragon is holding to something to anchor it then yes it will not move but if it standing on the ground it is gravity that holds it in place not its PS.

So if someone walked up and kicked you, gravity is the only thing keeping you from flying backwards? Or does your strength at resisting the kick factor in?

Same thing with the dragon. You can kick it all you want but your strength is piddly compared to it's.

Blue_Lion has otherwise stated that unless the dragon is using its strength, the only thing that is otherwise holding it in-place is gravity. This is correct - it is not otherwise resisting anything - physics would say that if you kick an unresisting 4Lb object, then you wouldn't otherwise need to compare your strength score to its, because it's not resisting.

You're now trying to state that I've said you're right. This statement, and all the statements I've otherwise said towards you have been indicative of you being anything but right.

But please, forget Newtons' third law and continue believing in "Strength at resisting the kick" instead

Prysus wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Prysus wrote: Note: I'll be very curious to check out Carlotta in Rifts Vampire Sourecbook to see if the "48 hours" note is still there or not. If a lot of her write-up and/or stats are cut/paste, but that line removed, it would definitely go a further way to show intent. If it's still there, we're back to "could be an oversight or could be intentional."

i just checked. the 48 hours note is no longer present. however it still says she can only maintain it for 14 hours.

also, she was made into a Snow Lizard Dragon from RUE, instead of the non-defined dragon of the original WB1.


the fluff however stays pretty much the same, with a few additions for the new dragon type. she still disappears "for hours or days" as a way of hiding her dragon-ness from others.

Personally, i'd say that you need a "cool down period".. that the metamorphosis is taxing enough that you can't just use it again instantly.

Interesting. Appreciate it.

P.S. As for the other matter in this thread that's bordering on personal, I'll take that to PM.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:I don't think the metamorphisis includes clothes. I think it's pretty clear in the write up that it does not include inanimate objects.

Thus if you're metamorphing into a human, you better have some human clothes to put on.

Good point to bring up though.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Hey he's a dragon. Might be the right size.

Prysus wrote:

Razzinold wrote:I couldn't read what you posted because I do not have that book.

Greetings and Salutations. That's fine. I'll help the best I can (if you're further interested), though I think I covered it well enough in a previous post ...

Example (given earlier): A second level dragon hatchling dragon with 2 hours per level can only use metapmorphosis for 4 hours within a 48 hour period. So, the dragon can use metamorphosis 1.5 hours per day, and never once reach his limit. On the other hand, the dragon can use metamorphosis for 3 hours, change back to a dragon for 40 hours (43 hours total so far), then use metamorphosis again for an hour. After the hour, he'll be forced back into his true dragon form (he reached his limit of 4 hours within a 48 hour period). In addition to that, he'll now need to wait 24 hours before he can use metamorphosis again. Ergo, a 48 hour window, and a 24 hour cool down. Now, this would also mean that the dragon could use 4 hours at the start of the day, wait 24 hours, and then use it again. When he uses metamorphosis again (after only 28 hours), a new 48 hour window opens. So a dragon could burn through it quickly (and require a cool down), or use it sparingly and always remain in control.

Razzinold wrote:It doesn't say anywhere in this passage about having to wait for 24 hours before being able to use this ability again. I was under the assumption, and I don't think I'm alone on this because of conversations I've had in the past with people who have played dragons, that (for example) a fourth level dragon could hold the shape for 8 hours straight if they wanted to do so, revert back to their natural form, and then change again for another 8 hours.

That is definitely one way (and a common one) to rule it. RMB, RUE, Dragons & Gods, as well as almost any other Palladium Book that discusses dragon metamorphosis doesn't mention the extent of that "2 hours per level" (or whatever other number they use instead of 2). As such, we typically need to fill in the blanks. So ruling it can be changed near constantly is a valid interpretation of the general statement the books usually provide.

I'll say on a personal note, I feel that such an interpretation makes a time limit meaningless. 2 hours, with the ability to change to reset the counter or return to dragon form and use the ability again immediately after, effectively makes the duration indefinite. So listing a duration is more of a minor annoyance than an actual limitation. That's, of course, my opinion on the matter. I also believe the ruling that as long as you keep changing forms it resets the counter uses faulty logic. I'll provide a different example.

G.M.: "Okay, your duration is almost up. You won't be able to maintain your metamorphosis much longer. You'll need to act fast if you're going to keep your true origin a secret."
Player: "I sneak into the bathroom and metamorphosis into a cat."
G.M.: "Interesting. Okay, you manage to slip into the currently empty bathroom and change into a cat. So what's your plan?"
Player: "I transform back into the human form and rejoin the party."
G.M.: "Err ... are you sure about that?"
Player: "Well, yeah, I changed to a new form, so I can last at least 6 more hours. I'm good to go."
G.M.: "As you wade back into the crowd you suddenly grow and return to your true dragon form, squashing a few party guests in the process. This should go without saying, but the guards are now onto your ruse."
Player: "But I reset my metamorphosis! No way my duration can be up yet!"
G.M.: "You were using metamorphosis as a human, right?"
Player: "Yeah."
G.M.: "And you were using metamorphosis as a cat, right?"
Player: "Yeah."
G.M.: "And you were using metamorphosis when you returned to a human, right?"
Player: "Yeah. Three different forms, each has a different duration."
G.M.: "Three forms, each using metamorphosis. The duration lists the length of metamorphosis as an ability, not how long you can use a single form. The ability never states 'per form.' Since you were always using it, the clock kept ticking."

Note: RMB and RUE don't mention any cool down period. So using those rules, as long as the character reverted to a dragon form at some point, then the counter could (in theory) reset. Even if forced into dragon form, the character could immediately use it again. Dragons & Gods mentions a cool down period for the duration being reached, but doesn't specify how long a break is required (if any) should the limit not be reached. Sourcebook One lists the duration for a 48 hour period, with a cool down period if the duration is reached.

Razzinold wrote:Does the source book give a reason for the 24 hour wait period or is it a "just because we said so" rule ?

There's no explanation given. That's just the rule/extent of the power. Though, if I had to explain it, I'd say it's like flexing a muscle (magic isn't really a muscle, but it's something we humans can understand for a comparison). If you stress the muscle too long (beyond it's duration), you might pull the muscle or strain it in a way that you need time to recover from. The more experienced you get, the stronger that muscle becomes (allowing a longer duration). Someone else might have a different (or even better) explanation.

Razzinold wrote:Is it the same for adult dragons ? They can hold their shape for 48 hours straight and then have to wait 24 hours before using the ability again ?

They don't mention adults (only the 2 hours per level aspect). So, if using that rule, a dragon that can use metamorphosis for 48 hours within a 48 hour period effectively has an indefinite duration.

Razzinold wrote:Another thing, if I can maintain 8 hours of transformation in a 24 hour period what happens if I only transform for 4 hours in that 24 hour period, do I still have to wait 24 hours before being able to transform again ?

From what I'm reading, not unless you maxed out your duration. So, in your example ...

Day 1: You transform for 4 hours in one day.
Day 2: You transform again for 3 hours. Days 1 & 2 make 7 hours total for the 48 hour period.
Day 3: 4 more hours. Days 2 & 3 make 7 hours again for the 48 hour period.
Day 4: Another 4 hours. Days 3 & 4 make 8 hours and you hit your limit.
Day 5: You can't use metamorphosis due to the 24 hour recharge period.
Day 6: You've recovered and can use metamorphosis for up to 8 hours (or reserve it for when it's of the most use).

Note: This is using the Sourcebook One (original) rule only. Dragons & Gods mentions the cool down period being 12 hours for hatchlings and only 5 hours for adults. However, the conditions to reach that limit are unclear. Is it your hours per level in one shape for a straight duration only, or is there an unmentioned time limit within?

I'll also note that Rifts World Book 1: Vampire Kingdoms (original) does support the Sourcebook One rule. I'll address the more in another post. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

42dragon wrote:Don't forget that if you are using some form of the metamorphosis cool down rule (I am a fan of this by the way), that all dragons can reduce their size by as much as 60% indefinitely (D&G) which can bring most hatchlings down to the size of a large horse. That can make them much less conspicuous and easier to hide during the cool down times.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Noooo... If it doesn't say you can. You can assume you can. What you're doing is adding restrictions for no apperent reason that are not in the book.

You're given the power for the character, it's assumed you'll use it. "Oh it doesn't say you can use it again immediately" is a thinly veiled dodge. it doesn't say they can walk either but we're going to assume they can.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:If there are restrictions on powers/abilities then it's incumbent on the writers to tell us. If there's not, you're just making it up. Which is fine. house rules and all but one should ask "Why". Why add bunches of restrictions to powers that aren't in the book?

Prysus wrote:2: I think this method might be a bit more complicated, but might be a bit more flexible and workable for a group. I'll keep the 12 hour cool down from Dragons & Gods, if the hatchling uses up the entire duration (only 5 hours for an adult). This could be removed entirely (if desired). Now, we break down cool down times for less than that. I'm thinking effectively half the time transformed. The dragon could opt to transform again before that cool down (if the maximum duration has yet to be reached), but doing so while keep the counter running. And since I'm not sure I explained that very well, I'll give an example with actual numbers.

eliakon wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Noooo... If it doesn't say you can. You can assume you can. What you're doing is adding restrictions for no apperent reason that are not in the book.

You're given the power for the character, it's assumed you'll use it. "Oh it doesn't say you can use it again immediately" is a thinly veiled dodge. it doesn't say they can walk either but we're going to assume they can.

Except that
1) that is an apples to oranges comparison since there is no relationship between the two. Its a great strawman to pretend that some how a magical ability that has game stats is just like breathing...but its not.

2) it DOES have a limit. Your just arguing that the limit doesn't actually do anything. Which is a fine house rule...but again doesn't actually apply to what is written.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:If there are restrictions on powers/abilities then it's incumbent on the writers to tell us. If there's not, you're just making it up. Which is fine. house rules and all but one should ask "Why". Why add bunches of restrictions to powers that aren't in the book?

We do have a limit. We know you can only metamorphosis X hours. The writers clearly told us that

In PF dragons get some other abilities that may or may not apply to Rifts.

Neither of these says anything about what limits they do not have....

Nightmask wrote:

Glistam wrote:

Nightmask wrote:How would one abuse such or forcing a 10 minute wait on them prevent it? Particularly when mages with metamorphic spells can recast said spells and maintain them indefinitely (helped along by the various boosts and extra sources of PPE that are around).

When you need to maintain your disguise but time is running out, it's a lot easier to sneak away and spend only 15 seconds dragon-sized than it is to sneak away and spend only 10 minutes (or more) dragon-sized. That's the "abuse" I would look to prevent.

So again just why is that abuse? That restriction seems contrived to ensure someone playing a dragon character would be forced to be exposed to everyone as one.

Prysus wrote:

2: I think this method might be a bit more complicated, but might be a bit more flexible and workable for a group. I'll keep the 12 hour cool down from Dragons & Gods, if the hatchling uses up the entire duration (only 5 hours for an adult). This could be removed entirely (if desired). Now, we break down cool down times for less than that. I'm thinking effectively half the time transformed. The dragon could opt to transform again before that cool down (if the maximum duration has yet to be reached), but doing so while keep the counter running. And since I'm not sure I explained that very well, I'll give an example with actual numbers.

A third level dragon hatchling with 2 hours per level of experience can metamorphosis for up to 6 hours. The hatchling uses metamorphosis for 4 hours (2 hours short of his limit). So he'd need to wait 2 hours (half of 4 is 2) to fully recharge/recover. But, an hour later, something comes up and he uses metamorphosis again. Since he didn't wait the full 2 hours, he's not recharged and will only have 2 hours remaining. The hatchling uses it for the full two hours, and as such he burns out the ability (for lack of a better term) and needs to wait 12 hours now before he can use metamorphosis again. That same dragon from, after recovering, uses metamorphosis for 1 hour, then returns to dragon form. That means his cool down is only 30 minutes. After 30 minutes, he has his full 6 hours back. Note: The dragon can use as many forms as he wants while using metamorphosis, as the number of forms isn't important, only the duration of its use.

I think the second one helps enforce the limit in the stats, while still offering some flexibility to the cool down time (since I've never actually tried to use it in a game though, I could be missing something). Anyways, those are just a couple of ideas. I haven't actually tested either one of them, but various ideas that came to mind. Those are house rule options for you to use, tweak, or ignore as you see fit. Hope they help. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

42dragon wrote:Don't forget that if you are using some form of the metamorphosis cool down rule (I am a fan of this by the way), that all dragons can reduce their size by as much as 60% indefinitely (D&G) which can bring most hatchlings down to the size of a large horse. That can make them much less conspicuous and easier to hide during the cool down times.

wouldn't that be a use of the metamorphic power though? if you go the cooldown route, i'd assume that you'd get either or.. you can reduce size as long as you want, or you can do a major appearance change for X hours per level.. but after you use either you have to go through the cooldown before you can use it again.

SpiritInterface wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Glistam wrote:

Nightmask wrote:How would one abuse such or forcing a 10 minute wait on them prevent it? Particularly when mages with metamorphic spells can recast said spells and maintain them indefinitely (helped along by the various boosts and extra sources of PPE that are around).

When you need to maintain your disguise but time is running out, it's a lot easier to sneak away and spend only 15 seconds dragon-sized than it is to sneak away and spend only 10 minutes (or more) dragon-sized. That's the "abuse" I would look to prevent.

So again just why is that abuse? That restriction seems contrived to ensure someone playing a dragon character would be forced to be exposed to everyone as one.

And...

Dragons are supposed to be solitary and reclusive creatures. Maybe this reputation comes from the fact that hatchling and juvenile Dragons hiding until they grew to be able to maintain their disguise longer. By removing any meaningful cooling off period you are effectively removing the limitation.

If you want to play a Dragon that doesn't have to worry about the limitation have your GM give you a magical McGuffin (an item such as a ring, necklace, suppository, or a magical mark such as a tattoo, or birthmark) that allows you to ignore it.