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Shark_Force wrote:now again, i don't know if that's true; i don't know what their costs were, i don't know what the screwups were or how much they cost, but like i said: when i saw the price tag way back in the day, my immediate thought was that it was way too good to be true. if it was possible to make reasonable money selling miniatures at that price, everyone else in the industry would be stupid rich, and there would be a million new businesses desperately trying to get into the market so they could also get stupid rich.

We don't know the details, because Palladium are not providing them. But we can make some informed speculation.

We know that there were 17,502 cores produced.
About ~7000 backer bags.
And 4,608 Spartan/Phalanx boxes. Even if we estimate the Spa/Pha and Artillery as double the content of the remainder, that puts it at about 18,432 Expansion Boxes.

We know that PB claim to have spent ~$1.583M on this project.
38% on Manufacturing = ~$600K
14% on Shipping = ~$220K, less the $150K Palladium claimed for backer shipping = ~$70K

So we have the number of boxes, and the amount spent.

Even if you account for the backer bags being the equivalent of Cores, and account for 6 Expansion Boxes being the equivalent of a Core, that gets you a grand total of ~27,500 cores, that means that PB paid approximately $24 per core, which isn't out of the realm with what I've seen others claim as costs. Meaning even at wholesale and discount prices and even the fire sale prices, there's still a profit margin inherent.

The problem some people have, is that apparently according to a response to a State Attorney General, Palladium paid for this, including the retail contribution, with Kickstarter funds. And all those costs were done, before retail commenced. Meaning all profit from any retail or wholesale sales, should have gone back into the Kickstarter funds account. Kevin says that the money ran out years ago, but what happened to all the money from retail sales?

It seems that money, instead of being used to partially refund backers, is being claimed to have been spent on the development of Wave 2, despite Wave 2 by Kevin's own words, not being able to be accomplished.

I have a Kickstarter message (as do others) that explicitly states that "If the time should ever come that Palladium Books cannot fulfill the terms of our Kickstarter project, we will of course offer refunds, as we would be required to do by Kickstarter.". Granted, my situation is different to most, but at what point did they know they could NOT fulfill the terms of the project, knowing the failure point costs ahead, and bypass that.

They seem to be arguing a catch-22. They'll offer refunds if they can't complete, but they'll drain all resources from the project beyond that point, so they're incapable of giving refunds.

I agree with some statements above that some of this information is speculative, and some doesn't have much information to go on. But there's more than enough to ask questions, and Palladium are the only ones in a position to do so. And Kevin is on record as saying they DO have that information. Their refusal to give those details to the backers speaks volumes.

again, nobody sells miniatures for the price they were offering in the kickstarter unless they're desperate to get rid of stock. it doesn't happen. if 24 dollars a box is the estimated cost of manufacturing (and i don't know enough about the industry to know if it is), then it is leaving out a ton of other costs that are not manufacturing but which need to be factored into the final product, because otherwise everyone who is in the miniatures industry would be filthy stinking rich, and everyone who isn't would be trying to get into it because those profit margins would make every other kind of business look bad.

i'm also going to have to say that i'm pretty suspicious of some of the other claims that have been made, like PB getting the license for free. now, i could *maybe* believe "we'll give you a short-term license and allow you to pay at the end of that time instead of the beginning", but free? sounds about as likely as if my boss were to ask me to work for free for a month. i *might* consider reduced pay with the expectation that i will get everything i am owed a bit later, or even to delay my entire pay for a while (delay, not forfeit), but not a chance in hell would i work for free no matter how much i like my boss, and yet the claim has been made that harmony gold was just so generous and kind they let PB have the license for free and everyone seems to expect we should take that at face value. like hell they did. they're a for-profit corporation. they exist to make money, not to give away their product free of charge.

now again, i don't know one way or the other. maybe palladium really did try to pull some financial shenanigans, I certainly don't have any inside information proving they didn't, nor do i have an in-depth knowledge of the industry. but "we screwed up and lost a ton of money doing it" is really not all that improbable. it happens quite frequently, in every industry. there's a reason we have a saying "never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity", and the simple fact is that it is very believable that this whole mess was caused by people making stupid mistakes. mistakes like not looking at the price point of every other miniature company on the market and realizing you're expecting to make money while undercutting them massively in an already highly competitive market with small profit margins. mistakes like expecting all of your product is going to magically sell as fast as you can produce it, forgetting about storage costs or transportation costs, expecting that costs will never rise, expecting that your project will go flawlessly and everything will be on schedule and you'll be able to use the money from that to fund the next step, mistakes like assuming economies of scale are much better than they actually are, and so forth. right now there are several companies all insisting they're completely 100% for sure not even the tiniest bit to blame. i cannot see any reason at all that we should presume that everyone *except* palladium is being 100% honest about everything when we don't have all the information in hand.

Shark_Force wrote:again, nobody sells miniatures for the price they were offering in the kickstarter unless they're desperate to get rid of stock. it doesn't happen. if 24 dollars a box is the estimated cost of manufacturing (and i don't know enough about the industry to know if it is), then it is leaving out a ton of other costs that are not manufacturing but which need to be factored into the final product, because otherwise everyone who is in the miniatures industry would be filthy stinking rich, and everyone who isn't would be trying to get into it because those profit margins would make every other kind of business look bad.

I'm not sure you understand that this is actually a pretty common valuation. The standard rule of thumb for most things not sold in mass volume (and I'm talking in the thousands, if not tens/hundreds of units, well outside the scope of this project), is cost x2 is your wholesale price, and wholesale x2 is your retail price. Which puts the ~$24 smack in the middle for this being a $100 MSRP game.

Yes, there are other costs involved, like development, and advertising, warehousing, and labor with regards getting it to wholesalers, and that's normally what takes a chunk out of the 25% of MSRP you get. The latter two are the parts borne by Palladium, with the former two borne by backers.

The reason companies don't make the mint off these things that you think they do, is twofold. One, the market for the most part is relatively stable and niche. There's not a lot of "untapped potential". There's only so many gamers to market to, and there's only so many games those gamers will buy. Doubling the number of games isn't going to double the number of sales to gamers. It's going to halve the number of sales (conceptually) of each game to gamers. A general maxim in gaming appears to be that 5000 copies of a game is a success, 10,000 is a hit.

The other is that there are operating costs and risks that can mitigate things. Normal procedure require that money be sourced (either through loans, or operating capital), then manufacturing be done, then depending on the vagaries of the market. Which means if the market simply doesn't want your product, you're in a crapload of debt, and have a lot of stock that sits unused. This project ended with the latter, but the debt currently owed isn't due to lack of demand, but incompletion of an in-demand product that wasn't made. That the retail aspect seems to have cratered seems to be more about the followon public demand, and there are many reasons to speculate as to why, but purely price/volume doesn't appear to be one of them.

Now, if a company direct sales at retail (example, company webstore), they make significantly more profit per sale, but often this is a relatively small percentage of sales. The internet has opened things up significantly, but there's still a large portion of the market that won't spend $100+shipping on a game unseen, but will do so at their local store where the shipping has already been absorbed into the $100, and they get to see it in play.

There's plenty of capacity for profit in the gaming industry (else it wouldn't exist), but the profits after all costs aren't extraordinary (or there'd be more capital investment). But the numbers I've calculated on the numbers we've been given, don't seem particularly out of the norm. Which makes the failure of this project all the more befuddling.

Take a look at several other Kickstarters, and you'll see that while some do fail (often before funding completes), others do much more with less. Unless Palladium do a much more detailed breakdown of expenses, I'll remain convinced that they had the funding needed to complete this project. I do think that they needed significantly more than what they initially sought (trying to do this on the original $70K ask would have been difficult), but they got significantly more than that, and economies of scale look like it was more than sufficient.

I can't explain why PB couldn't get it done, but it doesn't look like it was a lack of funding. I'm unsure what the policy is with naming other companies, but at least one competitor on Kickstarter was able to produce more models (slightly smaller but comparable), for 1/5 the backers, with 1/10th the funding. They didn't avoid complete controversy, but it was successful enough that they did a followup project, and are in the process of a third. Feel free to PM me for a name, if you want to check it out, but there are a lot of examples out there.

i don't think companies make a mint off of selling miniatures. that's my whole damned point.

which means that when you suddenly run into a ton of problems, there goes the already-slim profit margin (made even slimmer by selling your product at an absurdly low price). which means you can't afford to make a bunch of stupid mistakes, and palladium has indicated that they made some pretty big stupid mistakes (and those mistakes were all at the beginning of this mess... i'd bet they've made a whole bunch more since then). now, that doesn't mean that they haven't done anything wrong or illegal. but it seems like everyone is screaming bloody murder about how evil and bad palladium is (when they have no real history of being horrible people, and a long history of less than brilliant business decisions and particularly at being god-awful mindbogglingly bad at estimating how much it will take to complete projects) and assuming that every time anyone who is not palladium that had a hand in this project is being perfectly honest about having done everything imaginable to help this project along and could not have possibly done anything less.

the more plausible explanation until we get some solid evidence otherwise is that palladium has done more or less exactly what they've done numerous times over the past few decades: they thought they could get something done easily with little to no investment in time, effort, resources, etc, and it turns out they couldn't (which bloody well shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, and yet strangely enough still seems to be a surprise to a lot of people).

i mean seriously, we're talking about the company that year after year remains convinced they'll complete 24 books in a single year when they have a really obvious pattern of not even averaging half of that amount in a year over and over and over (and if i wasn't including rifters, which require significantly less editing and writing on the part of palladium staff, it would be more like not even a quarter). you really think they couldn't have made a mistake about how hard it would be to finish wave 2, started on it, and then ran out of money when it wasn't even close to completion and they had nothing of value to show for it? heck, i wouldn't be the tiniest bit surprised if they had thrown good money after bad on trying to complete the project, thinking they would have the whole problem figured out "next month at the latest".

The lies are were (personally) I hit a larger snag.

Even IF I believed that PB had done their full faith best effort to get this done (I don't, but let's go with that for the sake of discussion), and perhaps even threw piles of their own money into this (again, purely for debate's sake), that doesn't change the fact they lied to us backers. For years. At the time there were plenty of doubts, and in retrospect we now have hundreds of updates and Newsletters singing the glories of how things are going fine, everything is fine, sure there are some snags but they're just trimming the parts count, getting quotes, and more quotes, quotes on parts counts to trim the quotes of the parts count, etc.

This went on for years. Plural. If they legit realized they were in this deep, if they produced wave 1 and it took the lion's share of what they had, then they should've been easily able to see that doing twice as many models with the same or less money was going to be a problem, if not impossible. And yet they kept up the charade in 2015, and 2016, and 2017, and I suspect they would have kept at it into 2018 if they hadn't hit the brick wall of losing the license.

IF they were indeed "working like demons", and on constant conference calls, and getting quotes by the bushel (Dozens? Hundreds?), and pouring vast sums of their own money into the project, maybe they should've shared a little more than empty platitudes about "2015/2016/2017 is the year of Robotech!"

Palladium Books proclaiming that they'll reach the distant reaches of the universe and failing to clear atmosphere? Yeah, sure, not surprising. They've been doing so to fans for years, sure. But it's different to promise that books will be released when no money has changed hands (and it is my understanding from previous exchanges that they don't charge until a book is ready to ship), it is another to take ~1.5 million dollars from over 5,000 people, deliver roughly 2/3 (by figure count) or 1/3 (by figure type) to people, spend 3 more years claiming that everything is fine, to abruptly change their tune.

What, when Scott came onboard did they think that he'd magically get those infantry figures and SDF-1 bases that he showed off in the updates done for loose change and pocket lint? From June 20th 2017 to December 27th 2017, it was all about progress. Yes, he noted that there were snags and challenges, but it was never assessed as 'we are on the verge of failure', until he went abruptly silent for two months (about the actual campaign) only to have this all come to a crashing end in late February of this year.

If they were having that much trouble, maybe they should've treated us like adults and shared some of that, rather than going silent on actual details for up to an entire year at a time (it became a running gag to have an 'annual proof of life' update).

Forar wrote:The lies are were (personally) I hit a larger snag.

Even IF I believed that PB had done their full faith best effort to get this done (I don't, but let's go with that for the sake of discussion), and perhaps even threw piles of their own money into this (again, purely for debate's sake), that doesn't change the fact they lied to us backers. For years. At the time there were plenty of doubts, and in retrospect we now have hundreds of updates and Newsletters singing the glories of how things are going fine, everything is fine, sure there are some snags but they're just trimming the parts count, getting quotes, and more quotes, quotes on parts counts to trim the quotes of the parts count, etc.

This went on for years. Plural. If they legit realized they were in this deep, if they produced wave 1 and it took the lion's share of what they had, then they should've been easily able to see that doing twice as many models with the same or less money was going to be a problem, if not impossible. And yet they kept up the charade in 2015, and 2016, and 2017, and I suspect they would have kept at it into 2018 if they hadn't hit the brick wall of losing the license.

IF they were indeed "working like demons", and on constant conference calls, and getting quotes by the bushel (Dozens? Hundreds?), and pouring vast sums of their own money into the project, maybe they should've shared a little more than empty platitudes about "2015/2016/2017 is the year of Robotech!"

Palladium Books proclaiming that they'll reach the distant reaches of the universe and failing to clear atmosphere? Yeah, sure, not surprising. They've been doing so to fans for years, sure. But it's different to promise that books will be released when no money has changed hands (and it is my understanding from previous exchanges that they don't charge until a book is ready to ship), it is another to take ~1.5 million dollars from over 5,000 people, deliver roughly 2/3 (by figure count) or 1/3 (by figure type) to people, spend 3 more years claiming that everything is fine, to abruptly change their tune.

What, when Scott came onboard did they think that he'd magically get those infantry figures and SDF-1 bases that he showed off in the updates done for loose change and pocket lint? From June 20th 2017 to December 27th 2017, it was all about progress. Yes, he noted that there were snags and challenges, but it was never assessed as 'we are on the verge of failure', until he went abruptly silent for two months (about the actual campaign) only to have this all come to a crashing end in late February of this year.

If they were having that much trouble, maybe they should've treated us like adults and shared some of that, rather than going silent on actual details for up to an entire year at a time (it became a running gag to have an 'annual proof of life' update).

This is pretty much my feelings on this whole debacle. I think Palladium alienated (at the very least) a lot more people with their lies, updates that never really said much of anything, and the complete farce of a refund offered to the backers than Palladium would have had they been honest with the backers about what was going on with RTT. It's one thing to try and fail at something. That happens every day. Sensible people understand that. What infuriates people is when they're lied to.

Forar wrote:The lies are were (personally) I hit a larger snag.

Even IF I believed that PB had done their full faith best effort to get this done (I don't, but let's go with that for the sake of discussion), and perhaps even threw piles of their own money into this (again, purely for debate's sake), that doesn't change the fact they lied to us backers. For years. At the time there were plenty of doubts, and in retrospect we now have hundreds of updates and Newsletters singing the glories of how things are going fine, everything is fine, sure there are some snags but they're just trimming the parts count, getting quotes, and more quotes, quotes on parts counts to trim the quotes of the parts count, etc.

This went on for years. Plural. If they legit realized they were in this deep, if they produced wave 1 and it took the lion's share of what they had, then they should've been easily able to see that doing twice as many models with the same or less money was going to be a problem, if not impossible. And yet they kept up the charade in 2015, and 2016, and 2017, and I suspect they would have kept at it into 2018 if they hadn't hit the brick wall of losing the license.

IF they were indeed "working like demons", and on constant conference calls, and getting quotes by the bushel (Dozens? Hundreds?), and pouring vast sums of their own money into the project, maybe they should've shared a little more than empty platitudes about "2015/2016/2017 is the year of Robotech!"

Palladium Books proclaiming that they'll reach the distant reaches of the universe and failing to clear atmosphere? Yeah, sure, not surprising. They've been doing so to fans for years, sure. But it's different to promise that books will be released when no money has changed hands (and it is my understanding from previous exchanges that they don't charge until a book is ready to ship), it is another to take ~1.5 million dollars from over 5,000 people, deliver roughly 2/3 (by figure count) or 1/3 (by figure type) to people, spend 3 more years claiming that everything is fine, to abruptly change their tune.

What, when Scott came onboard did they think that he'd magically get those infantry figures and SDF-1 bases that he showed off in the updates done for loose change and pocket lint? From June 20th 2017 to December 27th 2017, it was all about progress. Yes, he noted that there were snags and challenges, but it was never assessed as 'we are on the verge of failure', until he went abruptly silent for two months (about the actual campaign) only to have this all come to a crashing end in late February of this year.

If they were having that much trouble, maybe they should've treated us like adults and shared some of that, rather than going silent on actual details for up to an entire year at a time (it became a running gag to have an 'annual proof of life' update).

oh, definitely. as i've said, all backers are 100% justified in being angry about how palladium communicated this. on that end, it has been a complete and utter train wreck, and they really should have done so much better at that. frankly, as investors, they *owed* you all better than that. and i don't blame anyone for feeling like they deserve a refund or being unsatisfied with the offer of replacement product that palladium made. you have every right to seek a full refund.

i just disagree with the attitude that palladium must be guilty of every possible crime, and the calls for revenge to destroy the company, especially when they immediately accept the statements by every other involved party as the gospel truth that those other people never in any way could possibly have had anything to do with the project failing.

trying to get what you were promised (in this case, a refund) is seeking justice, which i think is entirely reasonable. i'm not sure you'll be able to get your money back, because as i said, *my* best guess at what happened is repeated colossal screwups (probably some of them shared by other people involved, though in the end the people who made the final decisions bear the brunt of the responsibility) that resulted in all the money being gone and nothing to show for it, but the cause is just, even if it could result in PB going into bankruptcy.

but the assumption of guilt without knowing all the facts? the calls for revenge, the hate, the desire to destroy something that they've decided is at fault without knowing all the facts because they're angry and want to hurt someone or something in retaliation? i have all kinds of problems with that.

Agreed we are not party to all the facts and so can never be 100% sure but there are some things that are undeniable

The kickstarter project had one single goal. to design and manufacture all of the pieces offered and pledged for. Although it might be a complicated prpcess the end result was to be singular and all efforts should have been directed towards it.

None is disputing that a large portion of the kickstarter funding was expended on the additiobnal wave 1 core/exansion boxes. presumably these were intended for retail sale. Now stop, at this point these extra wave 1 items used up a substantial amount of available monies, so much indeed that Palladium have told us that this used up what was left. Okay, let us step back to the sole project objective, if thsi had been what was intended this exttra wave 1 manufacturing was superflous and not needed, thereby the funds would still be retained and available for wave 2.

Note we have had a estimate of costs for wave 2 at prices either inflated by the following tears or by the expectation of another overrun for retail - specualtion only.

So my contention is that this one decision is the key one that led to failure and the inexcusable charade that PB carried on for the next three plus years.

Again I can only conjecture, but if the real intention for splitting the waves was to enable this "retail" run, only possible if wave two was put on hold, then the action is even more inexcusable. Did noone at PB (or anyone else sitting in) think to run a profit and loss assessment, just how many boxes had to be sold at retail to recover the monies for kickstarter, nevermind go to PB themselves

Of course the question remains as to what actually happenned to these extra retail funds, nowhere in the pie chart or Scott's subsequent explanation are these added to the funds available, who has them or if not on what were they spent?

I agree that ND failed with regard to the files, but if they were the key decision makers for the above then I would have certainly expected Kevin/PB to have stated that in clear, unequivocal terms, afterall they did blame ND somewhat for leaving them to handle shipping and were happy to point out how "crappy" they found ND's ruleset, so much so that they asked Carmen to rewrite. Sikence sometimes says more than words.

The exchange is over and now PB have to consider making proper cash refunds to the remaining bcakers. even if onlly at thereir own ;pw valuation of goods owed UNtil that point their reputation will remain at the bottom and there are many who will be on;y to happy to keep it there.

The Beast wrote:

Forar wrote:The lies are were (personally) I hit a larger snag.

Even IF I believed that PB had done their full faith best effort to get this done (I don't, but let's go with that for the sake of discussion), and perhaps even threw piles of their own money into this (again, purely for debate's sake), that doesn't change the fact they lied to us backers. For years. At the time there were plenty of doubts, and in retrospect we now have hundreds of updates and Newsletters singing the glories of how things are going fine, everything is fine, sure there are some snags but they're just trimming the parts count, getting quotes, and more quotes, quotes on parts counts to trim the quotes of the parts count, etc.

This went on for years. Plural. If they legit realized they were in this deep, if they produced wave 1 and it took the lion's share of what they had, then they should've been easily able to see that doing twice as many models with the same or less money was going to be a problem, if not impossible. And yet they kept up the charade in 2015, and 2016, and 2017, and I suspect they would have kept at it into 2018 if they hadn't hit the brick wall of losing the license.

IF they were indeed "working like demons", and on constant conference calls, and getting quotes by the bushel (Dozens? Hundreds?), and pouring vast sums of their own money into the project, maybe they should've shared a little more than empty platitudes about "2015/2016/2017 is the year of Robotech!"

Palladium Books proclaiming that they'll reach the distant reaches of the universe and failing to clear atmosphere? Yeah, sure, not surprising. They've been doing so to fans for years, sure. But it's different to promise that books will be released when no money has changed hands (and it is my understanding from previous exchanges that they don't charge until a book is ready to ship), it is another to take ~1.5 million dollars from over 5,000 people, deliver roughly 2/3 (by figure count) or 1/3 (by figure type) to people, spend 3 more years claiming that everything is fine, to abruptly change their tune.

What, when Scott came onboard did they think that he'd magically get those infantry figures and SDF-1 bases that he showed off in the updates done for loose change and pocket lint? From June 20th 2017 to December 27th 2017, it was all about progress. Yes, he noted that there were snags and challenges, but it was never assessed as 'we are on the verge of failure', until he went abruptly silent for two months (about the actual campaign) only to have this all come to a crashing end in late February of this year.

If they were having that much trouble, maybe they should've treated us like adults and shared some of that, rather than going silent on actual details for up to an entire year at a time (it became a running gag to have an 'annual proof of life' update).

This is pretty much my feelings on this whole debacle. I think Palladium alienated (at the very least) a lot more people with their lies, updates that never really said much of anything, and the complete farce of a refund offered to the backers than Palladium would have had they been honest with the backers about what was going on with RTT. It's one thing to try and fail at something. That happens every day. Sensible people understand that. What infuriates people is when their lied to.

Shark_Force wrote:i don't think companies make a mint off of selling miniatures. that's my whole damned point.

My apologies, I thought you were arguing from the other position.

The problem with their not being the potential for making a mint off of selling miniatures, is it puts a knife into Palladium's argument that Wave 1 retail production was a realistic way out, if they'd done even the barest of math.

According to Palladium, they knew how short they were from manufacturing Wave 2. They also knew (or should have known) prior to this what the approximate shipping was, within a reasonable margin of error, mid January 2014. So they have a financial cost of $X needed.

They know how much the production of the retail component was going to cost them. So they spent $Y.

They should have been able to calculate their profit margins on what percentage of retail sales they needed to make, so that the $Y spent, would have had a return of at least $X. And an assessment of how many boxes other companies sell, to get a more accurate assessment of the market.

Because the closer $X is to $Y, or the narrowness of the ratio of Cost vs Profit on the retail stock, the more this feels like a fundamental error from the initial decision to do so. Because by splitting the waves, they added an unnecessary ~$100K to the bottom line (my estimate of the cost Wave 2 shipping would have been over combined shipping)

If the retail Wave 1 was ~$300K (which seems to bear out based on the vague numbers provided), even at a 100% markup, they'd need to sell a third of their stock before they broke even. The lower the profit margin, the more stock that would need to be moved, just to recover the initial outlay, and the added costs that splitting the Waves would have added.

It seems that anything short of selling out well in excess of market projections for similar products, would have barely broken even. Which seems like the decision to do this was a fool's errand from the get-go.

As for your other point, regarding the hate/revenge vs anger/justice, while I would tend to agree, part of the reason for the former, is Palladium's recalcitrance to accept the latter. Requests for refunds have been flatly ignored, not even a real explanation that they cannot do so. Palladium refuse to give any public response, and according to the latest PBWU, appear to have moved on and are trying to actively ignore the situation. The information provided to this point is insufficient, the pie chart is woefully inadequate, and there's been no explanation as Wily mentions above, of how many retail were sold (especially the product sold in the last month), and what the disposition of that funding was. The lack of accountability or humility shows a disregard that, when compounded with the apparent dragging their feet for more than two years, is going to get people's dander up.

It looks like Palladium are attempting to unilaterally void their outstanding debt, rather than properly explain and restitute to the best of their ability. So it's unsurprising that some would seek "revenge" for that rather than "justice". Palladium's refusal to engage in a sincere and meaningful way, pretty much the entirety of the campaign, has generated an ire that other Kickstarter's just don't get. That they are continuing to do so and walk away, just exacerbates things.

Morgan Vening wrote:...regarding the hate/revenge vs anger/justice, while I would tend to agree, part of the reason for the former, is Palladium's recalcitrance to accept the latter. Requests for refunds have been flatly ignored, not even a real explanation that they cannot do so. Palladium refuse to give any public response, and according to the latest PBWU, appear to have moved on and are trying to actively ignore the situation. The information provided to this point is insufficient, the pie chart is woefully inadequate, and there's been no explanation as Wily mentions above, of how many retail were sold (especially the product sold in the last month), and what the disposition of that funding was. The lack of accountability or humility shows a disregard that, when compounded with the apparent dragging their feet for more than two years, is going to get people's dander up.

It looks like Palladium are attempting to unilaterally void their outstanding debt, rather than properly explain and restitute to the best of their ability. So it's unsurprising that some would seek "revenge" for that rather than "justice". Palladium's refusal to engage in a sincere and meaningful way, pretty much the entirety of the campaign, has generated an ire that other Kickstarter's just don't get. That they are continuing to do so and walk away, just exacerbates things.

Those are very astute comments. So long as Palladium refuses to fully explain their failure to their backers, the backers have excellent reason to suspect the worst. After all, while bad luck or poor business decisions might prevent the backers from receiving what is owed to them, neither prevents Palladium from providing a complete and transparent explanation of *why* the backers won't be receiving what they paid for.

Morgan Vening wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:i don't think companies make a mint off of selling miniatures. that's my whole damned point.

My apologies, I thought you were arguing from the other position.

The problem with their not being the potential for making a mint off of selling miniatures, is it puts a knife into Palladium's argument that Wave 1 retail production was a realistic way out, if they'd done even the barest of math.

According to Palladium, they knew how short they were from manufacturing Wave 2. They also knew (or should have known) prior to this what the approximate shipping was, within a reasonable margin of error, mid January 2014. So they have a financial cost of $X needed.

They know how much the production of the retail component was going to cost them. So they spent $Y.

They should have been able to calculate their profit margins on what percentage of retail sales they needed to make, so that the $Y spent, would have had a return of at least $X. And an assessment of how many boxes other companies sell, to get a more accurate assessment of the market.

Because the closer $X is to $Y, or the narrowness of the ratio of Cost vs Profit on the retail stock, the more this feels like a fundamental error from the initial decision to do so. Because by splitting the waves, they added an unnecessary ~$100K to the bottom line (my estimate of the cost Wave 2 shipping would have been over combined shipping)

If the retail Wave 1 was ~$300K (which seems to bear out based on the vague numbers provided), even at a 100% markup, they'd need to sell a third of their stock before they broke even. The lower the profit margin, the more stock that would need to be moved, just to recover the initial outlay, and the added costs that splitting the Waves would have added.

It seems that anything short of selling out well in excess of market projections for similar products, would have barely broken even. Which seems like the decision to do this was a fool's errand from the get-go.

As for your other point, regarding the hate/revenge vs anger/justice, while I would tend to agree, part of the reason for the former, is Palladium's recalcitrance to accept the latter. Requests for refunds have been flatly ignored, not even a real explanation that they cannot do so. Palladium refuse to give any public response, and according to the latest PBWU, appear to have moved on and are trying to actively ignore the situation. The information provided to this point is insufficient, the pie chart is woefully inadequate, and there's been no explanation as Wily mentions above, of how many retail were sold (especially the product sold in the last month), and what the disposition of that funding was. The lack of accountability or humility shows a disregard that, when compounded with the apparent dragging their feet for more than two years, is going to get people's dander up.

It looks like Palladium are attempting to unilaterally void their outstanding debt, rather than properly explain and restitute to the best of their ability. So it's unsurprising that some would seek "revenge" for that rather than "justice". Palladium's refusal to engage in a sincere and meaningful way, pretty much the entirety of the campaign, has generated an ire that other Kickstarter's just don't get. That they are continuing to do so and walk away, just exacerbates things.

as i said, i suspect colossal mistakes. whether it is those mistakes or other ones, i don't know, but that's what i suspect.

as to their current silence, that probably has something to do with their lawyer telling them to not say anything at this point given they're in court, if i had to guess. their silence and the questionable nature of their communication over the past several years, well, again, i'm sure as heck not gonna defend that. they should have done better, and they didn't.

and while i can agree that hate and revenge are completely understandable, in the sense that i am a human being and suffer from the same flaws in human nature as other humans, i don't agree that it makes that sort of behaviour any less deplorable. i am not suggesting that anyone has to like or trust palladium after this, merely that acting in a hateful manner and seeking to immediately inflict suffering on someone else (particularly not "whoever at first glance appears to be responsible", and also "assume they did the absolute maximum amount of bad things possible") is not an appropriate response to the feeling that you have been wronged.

Well the overall point of it is this Sharky.

If someone lies to you. You're less prone to trust them.

If that person literally and willfully lies to you for -years- about something. You're much less prone to trust them.

You asked previously, why people are willing to believe all the negative about Palladium, and take the word of others as gospel on this.... That's very simple.

Palladium lied. They clearly lied. Not once. But every week, to people that trusted them with one and a half million dollars. For -years-.

They eroded all trust from those people. There's zero trust left. For those people if palladium said the sky was blue, they'd go out to make sure it wasn't cloudy or night time.

So when Palladium says something ELSE, they're not -presumed- to be telling the truth. The needle has tipped over the other way. After being deceived for literal years over the matter of over a million dollars, those people presume that palladium is lying. Because they -have- for years.

That's why they "Assume they did the absolute maximum amount of bad things possible' because all trust and respect has been worn away by systemic deception for years.


Now.. I'm not speaking for myself. I'm not throwing rocks. I'm explaining human nature. You can take the above situation and plug it in anywhere.

Government lies about something for years... they're not trusted when it comes out.

Business lies about something for years... they're not trusted when it comes out.

Your wife lies about something for years... she's not trusted when it comes out.

Your husband lies about something for years... he's not trusted when it comes out.

Again. Not flinging bricks at Palladium, it's just very simple basic human nature. Trust may be a default state for some (Not me, but for some) but once trust is broken, it's much much much harder to regain. In this case people have literal YEARS of updates in their emails full of constant undending deceptions.

Not trying to be mean... but they're never going to trust palladium again. Will some 'forgive'? Perhaps. (There's better people than me in the world) But that level of deception isn't going to be overcome.

Those customers/fans are forever poisoned by this. They may not abandon Palladium (I still buy product, but in a 'safe' manner), but TRUSTING the PEOPLE? That's just not going to 'get better' most especially with out responsibility taken. And it hasn't been.

Noone's come out and gone "Ok.... we tried to keep it on the down low. We tried to fix it. We lied. We're sorry"

Untill that, there can't be any real 'healing' of that anger. Because no responsibility has been taken (And for the vast majority it won't matter anyway) but those that WANT to forgive, cn't forgive someone that refuses to acknowledge the problem and take responsibility for it.

And again, that goes for anything like this. Not 'just' palladium's situation.

If your spouse cheats on you, and you catch them red handed, but they refuse to admit they did it and apoligise... you never trust um again. How could you?

there's a difference between "i don't trust you" and "i assume you've done every possible bad thing ever with no evidence".

the former is fine. i don't have any problem with not wanting to extend trust to palladium again. the latter? not so good. going on the warpath to hurt someone because you've arbitrarily assumed they're guilty of everything with no evidence? i expect better behaviour of 6 year old children, let alone people who are *supposed* to be mature adults.

you want to get what was promised you (again, in this case a refund, given that the product was not received and a refund was promised if the product couldn't be delivered), that's fine. there's nothing wrong with that, even if the end result could potentially be the same as if you were on the warpath. i'm not expecting that anyone completely forgive palladium of all their debts, or to get in line in the event that palladium ever does more crowdfunding. i'm not even expecting that they're going to be interested in buying stuff from palladium where they're sure to get the product in exchange for their money (say, buying it in a FLGS where they have the book in stock right at that moment).

now again, i can understand that. i get angry too. sometimes mad enough to want to hurt people in retaliation. but i don't go around expecting everyone to think it's acceptable for me to go punch a guy in the head because i'm angry, and i deserve to get revenge, and that guy needs to be hurt because i feel hurt, and i do my very best to not act on those desires (so far, i've done quite well, though i am not perfect either and perhaps some day i'll fall into the same trap... but i certainly *expect* better of myself, and i *expect* better of others, because to do otherwise means we all have to live in a world where it is acceptable for someone to just get mad and take it out on whoever they feel is responsible, and that world sucks too much to accept).

Shark_Force wrote:there's a difference between "i don't trust you" and "i assume you've done every possible bad thing ever with no evidence".

When one discovers one has been told a lie of this magnitude, never mind repeatedly and over a span of time measured in years, it naturally prompts the question "well what else have you lied to me about?". It all boils down to that natural social response to discovering someone deceived you for their own gain.

That fundamental loss of trust makes people understandably far more inclined to suspect malicious or deceptive intent when reexamining other interactions with the one who told the lie(s), which of course makes them a lot more willing to accept potential conclusions that paint actions past and present in a more negative light. What's that old saying? "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." The moral of the story of the boy who cried wolf would apply: once you acquire a reputation as a liar, nobody will believe you even when you're telling the truth.

This kind of lost trust can be fatal to a business, since repeat custom depends largely on the trust the consumer has for the company and its products. Look at what's happening to VW over the emissions cheating scandal. They're posting apocalyptic amounts of red ink and have regulatory bodies in two dozen countries examining their every move under a microscope after they were caught engaging in deceptive behavior that was directly harmful to consumers.

I am not a backer of the RRT Kickstarter, and I've been following Palladium games since the old Macross II RPG, and after this fiasco I probably wouldn't loan any of the Palladium staff bus fare... never mind backing future projects from Palladium or its licensees on Kickstarter.

I am a backer of the RTT and I’ve been buying products for almost 30 years so I’m used to be being disappointed by Palladium Books.

I’m not as disappointed by the failure of RTT as I am by the lying about it for the last couple years. I guess I honestly believed that at some point the product would be fulfilled even if years late. I thought we’d get the scenario book and stuff.

The great thing about our culture is that trust can always be rebuilt and we are always ready to forgive. Palladium may have had their new Coke screw up (RTT) but if they can start releasing new products consistently and of high quality, people will forgive. The last few books I’ve enjoyed.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:there's a difference between "i don't trust you" and "i assume you've done every possible bad thing ever with no evidence".

When one discovers one has been told a lie of this magnitude, never mind repeatedly and over a span of time measured in years, it naturally prompts the question "well what else have you lied to me about?". It all boils down to that natural social response to discovering someone deceived you for their own gain.

That fundamental loss of trust makes people understandably far more inclined to suspect malicious or deceptive intent when reexamining other interactions with the one who told the lie(s), which of course makes them a lot more willing to accept potential conclusions that paint actions past and present in a more negative light. What's that old saying? "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." The moral of the story of the boy who cried wolf would apply: once you acquire a reputation as a liar, nobody will believe you even when you're telling the truth.

This kind of lost trust can be fatal to a business, since repeat custom depends largely on the trust the consumer has for the company and its products. Look at what's happening to VW over the emissions cheating scandal. They're posting apocalyptic amounts of red ink and have regulatory bodies in two dozen countries examining their every move under a microscope after they were caught engaging in deceptive behavior that was directly harmful to consumers.

I am not a backer of the RRT Kickstarter, and I've been following Palladium games since the old Macross II RPG, and after this fiasco I probably wouldn't loan any of the Palladium staff bus fare... never mind backing future projects from Palladium or its licensees on Kickstarter.

sure.

notice how none of those countries immediately accused VW of, say, also using slave labour to build their cars with no evidence, nor did they send all the executive officers to jail without a trial for that supposed crime. they started looking closer. they didn't automatically assume VW is guilty of every form of wrongdoing without a trial, nor did they call for VW to be punished for things that are unproven, because that kind of behaviour is not acceptable.

again: not saying anyone needs to trust PB, or buy stuff from them, or like them, or fully forgive their debt. if you want to demand that there be investigations into what happened, that's totally fine, whether they turn out to be guilty or not; they've acted in a manner that warrants further investigation. if you want to demand a refund because you're not satisfied with what PB offered in exchange, and you were promised a refund in the first place, that's totally fine. you were promised either all the figures you ordered or a refund, and demanding that refund now that you've been told you're not getting the complete game or the figures is only fair, even if it turns out that giving refunds would bankrupt PB.

if you want to immediately accuse PB of every form of wrongdoing imaginable and destroy them on the basis of their assumed guilt? not fine. that kind of behaviour is not acceptable.

Shark_Force wrote:notice how none of those countries immediately accused VW of, say, also using slave labour to build their cars with no evidence, nor did they send all the executive officers to jail without a trial for that supposed crime. they started looking closer. they didn't automatically assume VW is guilty of every form of wrongdoing without a trial, [...]

That last bit isn't quite true. After discovering that a few models of VW engine were discovered to have a "defeat device" to cheat on emissions testing, ALL VW diesel engines were considered suspect until proven not to be. That included VW engines in use in non-VW vehicle lines using non-VW software. It even spun outwards and prompted investigation and recertification orders to other makers of diesel engines, on the "If you're doing it, your competitors probably are too" reasoning. (It was, in a very real way, "guilty until proven innocent" on multiple levels once the first offense had been established.)

Shark_Force wrote:if you want to immediately accuse PB of every form of wrongdoing imaginable and destroy them on the basis of their assumed guilt? not fine. that kind of behaviour is not acceptable.

You can insist that all you like, but the fact remains that there are now quite a lot of angry people who now have every reason to assume the worst. What Palladium did with RRT was dodgy in the extreme, more than enough so that even the reasonable backers see little point in a presumption of innocence. It certainly doesn't help that misleading investors about the project's fiscal solvency is the kind of thing that only really occurs as a coverup for some other accounting irregularity. Trying to figure out the cause is just human nature. When someone wrongs you, you want to know why, and if it isn't evident you'll start guessing.

The longer Palladium keeps mum about the whole affair, the more patterns the irate customers are going to find in past behavior and thus the more negative conclusions they'll reach. Silence is slow suicide for a company in a situation like this. The only fix is transparency, and that's just not forthcoming... which means they're going to be tried and convicted by the court of public opinion long before there's any kind of proper legal resolution. The longer this drags on, the worse the repercussions they experience in customer and corporate relations will be.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:if you want to immediately accuse PB of every form of wrongdoing imaginable and destroy them on the basis of their assumed guilt? not fine. that kind of behaviour is not acceptable.

You can insist that all you like, but the fact remains that there are now quite a lot of angry people who now have every reason to assume the worst. What Palladium did with RRT was dodgy in the extreme, more than enough so that even the reasonable backers see little point in a presumption of innocence. It certainly doesn't help that misleading investors about the project's fiscal solvency is the kind of thing that only really occurs as a coverup for some other accounting irregularity. Trying to figure out the cause is just human nature. When someone wrongs you, you want to know why, and if it isn't evident you'll start guessing.

The longer Palladium keeps mum about the whole affair, the more patterns the irate customers are going to find in past behavior and thus the more negative conclusions they'll reach. Silence is slow suicide for a company in a situation like this. The only fix is transparency, and that's just not forthcoming... which means they're going to be tried and convicted by the court of public opinion long before there's any kind of proper legal resolution. The longer this drags on, the worse the repercussions they experience in customer and corporate relations will be.

Pretty much everything that Seto said. I'm seeing very few people of the many angry voices that have the unbridled irrational rage that Shark_Force is seeing. There are absolutely people screaming at the moment, but as Seto points out, that's because PB are running silent. If they'd explained to backers years ago where the situation sat, BEFORE running retail Wave 1, or if they offered to pay out in full at this point, there might be some leeway. But their actions (or lack thereof), make it look like they've got something to hide, regardless of if they have or not. There's little they've said or done (or not done) that allows anyone who has been wronged by their mistakes, to look on them charitably, especially those of us who knew of Palladium, but don't have 10, 20, 30 years of goodwill and funtimes behind them. I can see a Palladium fan-friend being unhappy but giving them the benefit of the doubt. Someone who came into this in 2013? Not so much.

I believe there's an insignificant minority of backers that would still be seeking vengeance if Palladium issued significant refunds* to all backers still owed outstanding debt. A debt they have acknowledged would be owed, but now are refusing to address. Ironically, I think most of those would be people who feel dudded by the exchange (and the remainder those who feel the game is incomplete and therefore not worth what's already been paid), if cash refunds started to get issued. But I don't think there'd still be more than a fraction of a percent of people devoting time and effort to "destroying the company".

* The closer to 100%, the more people would accept an offer, the further from, the less people would. I think an offer of 50% would cause a majority of the remaining backers owed, to move on. Whether that's enough to avoid civil action, I don't know. Odds increase as the percentage does.

Shark_Force wrote:if you want to immediately accuse PB of every form of wrongdoing imaginable and destroy them on the basis of their assumed guilt? not fine. that kind of behaviour is not acceptable.

First, I'm not seeing anyone accusing anyone of murder or such similarly foul deeds. Let's avoid hyperbole.

Second, just on the basis of what is *known* to be true - that Kevin & Co. were dishonest for years on end - people are well within their rights to spread the word of wrongdoing at Palladium. It's a simple matter of sharing news that a company has behaved badly, and that potential customers should beware. When companies that have wronged their customers can't be fully transparent with those they've short-changed, they *should* be driven out of business, and any behavior that leads to that end that doesn't involve violence or coercion is *absolutely* acceptable. In fact, it's *necessary* if we are to discourage bad actors in the future.

I hope Kevin comes fully clean. In light of those sins *strictly known to be true*, it's the only way that I can see supporting his company in the future.

Maybe it is time to do the Palladium way, and name this crisis so that we ca abbriavate it accordingly in all discussions as was made with the ToC or what it is called. Lets call this Deceit of the Millenium (DotM) or Years of Lies (YOL), just to be as hyping as with the Time of Crisis. :)

Enough kidding. Sorry if you do not have the same humour as I do.

I got my answer I did not meant to stir up a hornet's nest. I did not really know how PB do with their preorder. Now I do.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:notice how none of those countries immediately accused VW of, say, also using slave labour to build their cars with no evidence, nor did they send all the executive officers to jail without a trial for that supposed crime. they started looking closer. they didn't automatically assume VW is guilty of every form of wrongdoing without a trial, [...]

That last bit isn't quite true. After discovering that a few models of VW engine were discovered to have a "defeat device" to cheat on emissions testing, ALL VW diesel engines were considered suspect until proven not to be. That included VW engines in use in non-VW vehicle lines using non-VW software. It even spun outwards and prompted investigation and recertification orders to other makers of diesel engines, on the "If you're doing it, your competitors probably are too" reasoning. (It was, in a very real way, "guilty until proven innocent" on multiple levels once the first offense had been established.)

investigating whether someone is guilty is not the same thing as assuming guilt. in fact, it distinctly shows that they did not assume guilt; they acknowledged there was a possibility of wrongdoing, and then essentially put them on trial to see if they were guilty or not. which, again, i am fine with putting palladium on trial. i'm not fine with the people who are calling for palladium's destruction for the sake of revenge.

i'm also fine with people sharing their story and expressing the opinion that they don't trust palladium, and they don't think anyone else should either. but again, that doesn't mean an automatic assumption that they for sure have stolen hundreds of thousands of dollars when there are other perfectly reasonable explanations (again, businesses make stupid business decisions that cost tons of money all the time, often leading to the company going under with nothing to show for it. there is nothing unusual about that, and there is no reason to assume guilt in advance; calling for an investigation is one thing, calling for them to be punished for their guilt before the investigation has even begun has not)

and no, those people are not all that rare... going through the first page of comments on the kickstarter comments page at the moment, there are people describing PB as a swindler and calling for harsh punishment of them, people claiming that PB spent the money on other products, people claiming PB hid stuff under soundproofing at the open house, people accusing PB of banning and silencing people on their own forums any time this subject comes up (this thread, which has so far remained civil, has been up for an extended period of time, and yet is quite critical of PB, so no, that isn't true; when any topic gets toxic, then yeah, it gets shut down, as it should be), people saying that PB has been laundering the money (not "might have been", but presenting it as absolute fact), another person claiming that HG gave PB the license for free (though another backer at least responded to that one same as i did: bull crap, HG isn't giving out squat for free, they exist to make money not to be nice), people stating that PB deliberately dragged this out to beyond the time limit for fraud accusations (seems sketchy, i doubt that timer starts counting from the beginning rather than the end of the crime, and if there was fraud it didn't end until just a little while ago).

so that's just the first page. but hey, at least at this moment there are not literally people explicitly stating that palladium should be destroyed just because they feel hurt (of which there were quite a few when the news originally broke), so that's an improvement. just people stating that palladium definitely committed a whole bunch of crimes and should be punished for them while giving proof about as solid as "somewhere on the internet says X, but i'm not even going to say where", but somehow in spite of all this mountain of "evidence" also insisting that palladium is going to get away with everything because supposedly not a single one of the district attorneys in all of the united states seem to be in the business of prosecuting crimes.

not that insisting that PB should be instantly declared guilty on what is quite possibly the most flimsy evidence imaginable (it essentially amounts to "i heard a rumour that PB are definitely guilty, but i can't even remember where i heard that rumour") and punished beyond the harshest extent of the law. no seriously, someone is insisting that the law needs to be made more harsh just so that PB can be hurt more by it. there is literally a person insisting that the laws of the USA should be re-written for the express purpose of hurting PB more. but technically, they aren't explicitly saying that PB should be destroyed for the sake of revenge.

they're just heavily implying it.

maasenstodt wrote:First, I'm not seeing anyone accusing anyone of murder or such similarly foul deeds. Let's avoid hyperbole.

Besides, "Kevin Siembeida, the Demon Publisher of Webb Court" doesn't exactly trip off the tongue.

Dunia wrote:Maybe it is time to do the Palladium way, and name this crisis so that we ca abbriavate it accordingly in all discussions as was made with the ToC or what it is called. Lets call this Deceit of the Millenium (DotM) or Years of Lies (YOL), just to be as hyping as with the Time of Crisis.

All joking aside, I'm actually kind of surprised it hasn't acquired a sobriquet like that yet.

Shark_Force wrote:investigating whether someone is guilty is not the same thing as assuming guilt. in fact, it distinctly shows that they did not assume guilt; they acknowledged there was a possibility of wrongdoing, and then essentially put them on trial to see if they were guilty or not.

You missed my point... in my example, once a single offense had been established the presumption shifted from "innocent until proven guilty" to a "guilty, maliciously motivated, until proven otherwise". Particularly when it came to forcing everyone else to recertify.

Shark_Force wrote:which, again, i am fine with putting palladium on trial. i'm not fine with the people who are calling for palladium's destruction for the sake of revenge.

I'm honestly not sure what you're expecting. People are PISSED, and understandably so considering what Palladium has admitted to doing. As many of Palladium's defenders have pointed out, backing the Kickstarter technically makes you an investor rather than a preorder customer... and investors generally do not like being lied to about things like a project's fiscal solvency, considering that the money at risk is their own. When an investor doesn't get the promised return on their investment because of circumstances outside anyone's control, they are not happy campers but write it off as a loss and move on. When that loss is incurred as a result of negligence, incompetence, or malice, you can bet the investors will pursue every legal means at their disposal to run the owners to ground and make sure they get their due even it the company doesn't survive it.

If a company can't or won't act in good faith with its investors, the most basic of business obligations, then most would argue that company shouldn't continue to operate.

That's not revenge, that's just basic capitalism at work.

Shark_Force wrote:i'm also fine with people sharing their story and expressing the opinion that they don't trust palladium, and they don't think anyone else should either. but again, that doesn't mean an automatic assumption that they for sure have stolen hundreds of thousands of dollars when there are other perfectly reasonable explanations [...]

Not wishing to be rude, but you're attempting to make this a semantic argument.

Regardless of what verb you might want to apply to it, the bare fact remains that Palladium Books directly caused its own failure to fulfill the obligations that it had to the backers of the Kickstarter campaign by its decision to divert an unspecified but large sum of money from the project's development budget to the production of retail stock in order to generate operating capital. Reportedly capital meant to defray greater-than-expected shipping costs, but it was still a strategy which was terribly irresponsible, practically guaranteed to fail, and would have looked highly irregular and suspicious even if it hadn't been done in secret and covered up until there was barely a month remaining in the grace period Harmony Gold had given them after revoking their license.

There are many potential explanations, but I'm not sure that I could fairly say as an outsider that any of them were "reasonable".

Shark_Force wrote:going through the first page of comments on the kickstarter comments page at the moment, there are people describing PB as a swindler and calling for harsh punishment of them, people claiming that PB spent the money on other products, people claiming PB hid stuff under soundproofing at the open house, [...]

Apart from that last one potentially just being fans forgetting Palladium was given permission to hold onto sold retail stock for hand-delivery at the Open House, the rest sounds like the usual "certain point of view" stuff.

The definition of "Swindler" being "a person who cheats someone out of money or other assets", it must be admitted it's not hard to see why someone might regard that as an apt characterization. There is a good deal of discontent over all of the financial irregularities, Palladium undervaluing backer pledges owed for exchange purposes during the final weeks before the license ended, making backers doing exchanges pay shipping when shipping was already included in their pledges, the questionable legality of trying to make backers give up their right to sue in order to claim their exchange goods, and so on...

The question of PB spending the money on other projects is going to continue to dog them until they actually cough up the detailed financial accounting for RRT's expenses. The circumstantial evidence is enough for that to be at least somewhat understandable as suspicions go.

Shark_Force wrote:[...] people accusing PB of banning and silencing people on their own forums any time this subject comes up [...]

That part's pretty accurate, actually.

There were rather a lot of bans handed out to people who questioned Palladium's claims that all was well, that the money was all accounted for, and that there was no problem with the project... regardless of how civilly they did so. Hell, my own account here got shadowbanned after I commented about how strange it was the PB staff were seemingly focusing on everything BUT the RRT Kickstarter.

Shark_Force wrote:another person claiming that HG gave PB the license for free (though another backer at least responded to that one same as i did: bull crap, HG isn't giving out squat for free, they exist to make money not to be nice),

Amusingly, that part is also actually true. Harmony Gold confirmed several details when it replied to concerns raised about the end of Palladium's license. The major ones being that the license was being revoked, not expiring, and that they'd given Palladium every chance to make good... including granting them a free extension to their license several years ago in order to give them more time to salvage RRT.

Shark_Force wrote:people stating that PB deliberately dragged this out to beyond the time limit for fraud accusations (seems sketchy, i doubt that timer starts counting from the beginning rather than the end of the crime, and if there was fraud it didn't end until just a little while ago).

The Michigan statute of limitations on crimes of fraud is six years, and we're only three years out from when Palladium began to lie about the state of the project's budget... assuming someone could actually make a fraud charge stick. (My own legal experience is limited almost exclusively to contract and intellectual property law, so how feasible that is I couldn't possibly say.)

Shark_Force wrote:not that insisting that PB should be instantly declared guilty on what is quite possibly the most flimsy evidence imaginable (it essentially amounts to "i heard a rumour that PB are definitely guilty, but i can't even remember where i heard that rumour") and punished beyond the harshest extent of the law.

By in large, you're exaggerating. But there are also a lot of angry people out there who, perhaps rightly, feel they've been taken advantage of by Palladium.

Shark_Force wrote:no seriously, someone is insisting that the law needs to be made more harsh just so that PB can be hurt more by it. there is literally a person insisting that the laws of the USA should be re-written for the express purpose of hurting PB more.

That's not surprising. People tend to develop stronger feelings on the subject of justice and punishment when it's something that affects them personally.

Given that practically every political party on the planet is in favor of mandating harsher penalties for at least one category of offenses, that's nothing unusual or interesting.

I have spent a while away from this to gather my thoughts and try to be rational about the situation.

In truth I do not believe PB or anyone there acted with malicious forethought and they did try their flawed best to finish this project. This does not excuse the serious blunders that they made in the key decision making, the biggest of which was to blow funds on a massive retail gamble. I can even excuse the "propagandised" news that everything was in hand and moving forward to some extent by assuming PB were trying to resolve the massive hole they put themselves in. I am far less forgiving of the holier than thou preaching of some of their updates when they knew the extent of their problems.

I do not want to see PB to cease business but I do want a fair settlement on the monies I worked hard to get and which I rtrusted with PB to deliver the product I wanted - issues with design etc aside.

This brings me back to the key issues of the explanation of the finances. It is indisputable that PB produced Wave 1 product well and above what was required to fulfil backer pledges. Also indisputedly some of that product was sold at retail. Given that PB never contributed to the cost of this product (confirmed by their own pie chart) then every unit sold was 100% profit, or simply $99 a core box..

If this was so and over the next three plus years PB on;y sold 1000 core boxes they took in something just shy of $100k - I am not adding any extra sales for add on boxes. That is only assuming modest sales, steady but never spectacular. I also question whether PB recovered their initoa; development costsfrom Kickstarter funds - again the pie chart does not show these as project assets - this was around $45k according to Kevin. Add the cost for the salary of the project mangager of $47k (who was this by the way, it was and has not been disclosed ) and there is another potential $100k of income PB should have paid but took from y=the kickstarter funds and therefore actually paid nothing.

So there was a pot of at least 4150k probaly more like $250k in fact that PB held, ostensibly for the completion of the project. According to them this was still not enough and so they called time.

However, that does not mean they get to keep that money.

It is no great return on the investment but it should have been divided up withthe backers on a prorata basis as well as making the offer to send wave 1 product, afterall it was no good to them.

Instead what we got was simply the exchange offer, that was soured by backers having to stump up postage - not bad at $11if your were in Chicago, but $100 plus customs to get stuff to the UK? The monies that must have been taken in by retail sales was oh so conveniently forgotten.

This is the core source of my continued annoyance at the off hand, almost contemptuous way that PB are handling this. You can almost see the plan, regardless of any lwyers, is to brazen it out, trusting that it is only a small hard core of backers probably less than 10% that are still bothered to keep pushing on this. better still legally this is small potatoes and even if AG's get involved most will likley be satisfied with "we tried our best" excuse, and not push it as afterall we are talking about "toys".

PB have acted badly over the pst three plus years and continue to do so and it matters to me not a jot if they suceed or not, I still have a justified sense of injustice towards them

wilycoyote wrote:This brings me back to the key issues of the explanation of the finances. It is indisputable that PB produced Wave 1 product well and above what was required to fulfil backer pledges. Also indisputedly some of that product was sold at retail. Given that PB never contributed to the cost of this product (confirmed by their own pie chart) then every unit sold was 100% profit, or simply $99 a core box..

This is incorrect, at least as an aggregate, because that only applies to it being sold through PB's own webstore or at conventions. They'd have only gotten at most, $50 on sales to LGS retailers, even less on wholesalers or the big online retailers. And that doesn't include the sales from Christmas Grab Bags, nor the final closeout sale.

So, in addition to backers being owed a detailed explanation and spending of the original campaign funds, I think backers are also owed the analysis that made the decision to do the retail issuance viable. What was the cost to produce Wave 2 going to actually be (they should have had hard numbers on this), a revised shipping estimate based on Wave 1 costs, and what the recovery rate from the full selling of the 10K retail allotment and expansion packs would have been. Because I'm not confidant that anything short of a complete sellout would have done it. Which seems like a MASSIVE gamble.

And yes, a full accounting of all money made from Wave 1 retail sales, including whatever money was paid for the final liquidation, is also owed to backers, and where that money ended up. It definitely doesn't do Palladium any favors in quelling the speculation that something sketchy is going on, that this information has not, and doesn't appear to be, forthcoming. An unsubstantiated "Trust us, we promise" holds no cache for a lot of people anymore.

Seto Kaiba wrote:The longer Palladium keeps mum about the whole affair, the more patterns the irate customers are going to find in past behavior and thus the more negative conclusions they'll reach. Silence is slow suicide for a company in a situation like this. The only fix is transparency, and that's just not forthcoming... which means they're going to be tried and convicted by the court of public opinion long before there's any kind of proper legal resolution. The longer this drags on, the worse the repercussions they experience in customer and corporate relations will be.

I believe we are unfortunately past the apology stage. Had PB bent over backwards with freebies during the final trade-in fiasco, perhaps apologies would have worked. The trade-in "prices" were ludicrous when it should have been a true fire sale to backers with PDFs being given away as bennies and DriveThruRPG credits to non-USA backers whose shipping fees would be extreme. THAT with a strong mea culpa might have derailed the anger train.

But now?

I don't know what PB's best path might be. The trade-in fiasco and silence have long since finished the trial of public opinion. I doubt any PB projects can be crowdfunded in the foreseeable future which is extremely painful for a company that needs new fans and fresh funds.

However, the few vocal backers who will dump on future PB projects aren't the major problem. It's the quiet backers who PB has let down who may just move on to other games and other companies. While the "minis only" gamers might not matter as lost customers, there are many backers who identified as lifelong PB enthusiasts who expressed they won't buy PB products in the future.

Who knows? Maybe they keep buying PB stuff in the future, but the RPG market is OVERSTUFFED with options between the big companies, the PDF/POD creators and the never ending Kickstarters. It's harder than ever for a company to hold onto customers and if PB loses a GM who decides to run XYZ instead, there goes most of the players at that table.

To me, that's the most dangerous potential fallout from RTT.

Spinachcat wrote:I believe we are unfortunately past the apology stage. [...]

I don't know what PB's best path might be. The trade-in fiasco and silence have long since finished the trial of public opinion. I doubt any PB projects can be crowdfunded in the foreseeable future which is extremely painful for a company that needs new fans and fresh funds.

To be frank, I suspect that we're also well past the point where any remedial action left to Palladium Books would achieve meaningful results in terms of remedying the long-term damage to the company's reputation. The crippling lack of transparency on every level of the Robotech RPG Tactics Kickstarter did a lot to erode the customer base's trust in Palladium Books's management, well before their eleventh hour confession that they'd lied about the project finances for three years and that they were losing the license as a result. The only way to deflect the accusations of misappropriated funds, money laundering, and other more heinous crimes is to go transparent on the program spending, but that hasn't happened.

The unwillingness to engage with the backers and account for themselves has left a lot of Palladium's formerly faithful customers pointedly asking a lot of awkward and uncomfortable questions like "What do you have to hide?". The longer they let this drag out, the worse it's going to get for them. This is NOT a problem they can just ignore and hope it'll go away... but that seems to be what they're attempting.

At the very least, Palladium is probably done with crowdfunding for the foreseeable future. Anything they attempt will be dogged by accusations of fiscal misconduct at the very least. This probably marks the definitive end of the Rifts board game too... that project was already under heavy suspicion of foul play before there was proof that everything with RRT wasn't above board.

Spinachcat wrote:However, the few vocal backers who will dump on future PB projects aren't the major problem. It's the quiet backers who PB has let down who may just move on to other games and other companies.

The loss of faith among the less vocal backers is a problem, but by staying quiet those backers are actively minimizing the damage their moving on would cause.

Remember, Palladium Books does very little advertising and is mainly dependent on word of mouth to draw in new players. The backers who quietly fade away to pursue other games won't really be doing anything to dissuade new players from picking up Palladium products on a word-of-mouth basis. On the other hand, the upset and vocal backers are in a position to potentially do a LOT of damage since their vocal word-of-mouth customer experience testimonials are pretty much all that a prospective customer has to go on. Considering how far-reaching news or gossip about the failure of RRT and Palladium's handling of same has been, it's a nightmare scenario for a company that has no proper advertising channels to get word of its products out there. The well is poisoned, so to speak, and Palladium isn't helping matters if reports that they've hit conventions with Cease and Desists over RRT are true. (I have not seen corroboration yet.)

EDIT: The individual who posted about a convention where they were running a RRT boot camp having received a Cease and Desist from Palladium published a retraction and correction approximately three hours after this post was written.

Seto Kaiba wrote:The well is poisoned, so to speak, and Palladium isn't helping matters if reports that they've hit conventions with Cease and Desists over RRT are true. (I have not seen corroboration yet.)

Can you provide a link to these reports?

maasenstodt wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:The well is poisoned, so to speak, and Palladium isn't helping matters if reports that they've hit conventions with Cease and Desists over RRT are true. (I have not seen corroboration yet.)

Can you provide a link to these reports?

About three hours after I wrote the above, the individual who was reporting that their convention demo "boot camp" for Robotech RPG Tactics had been the subject of a C&D withdrew their post to publish a correction. It seems there was some miscommunication between the event coordinator and the convention's staff WRT the origin and precise nature of the letter they received. It was a letter raising a copyright/licensing concern, but it was from a third party.

It's that poisoned well I spoke of. The writer is almost certainly an angry RRT backer, given the letter's references to the Kickstarter's cancellation, Palladium's refusal to do refunds under the Kickstarter TOS, and their loss of the license. The actual content of the letter is mostly phrased as a "concerned citizen" sort of thing, voicing concern about hosting the game potentially having negative consequences (implied to be from HG) for the convention due to the demo being an unauthorized (unofficial) event advertising a canceled game from a publisher that no longer holds a license to the game's IP.

That that was enough to prompt a response from the convention organizers shows precisely how dangerous it is to be entirely dependent on word-of-mouth for your advertising when your customer base is well and truly PO'd.

I Think currently after seeing all the commentary here the absolute worst thing about this whole issue in this topic i started, i have not seen any commentary from anyone who runs the forum. unless megaversal ambassador is a moderator statis......sadness

i guess that tells me where the company really stands.

CushionRide you are welcome to pm me or contact me via the means in my sig below about this.

And no megaversal ambassador is not a moderator or anything else directly representing Palladium.

CushionRide wrote:I Think currently after seeing all the commentary here the absolute worst thing about this whole issue in this topic i started, i have not seen any commentary from anyone who runs the forum. [...]

i guess that tells me where the company really stands.

IIRC, most of the moderators are volunteers... there's really not much in the way of actual Palladium staff engaging with fans here. I doubt we'll see any change in that level of engagement at any point in the foreseeable future, considering the fans are largely no longer inclined to trust the word of a Palladium representative for various reasons that need no repeating.

(Let's be honest, it'd probably go a lot like this.)

Seto Kaiba wrote:

CushionRide wrote:I Think currently after seeing all the commentary here the absolute worst thing about this whole issue in this topic i started, i have not seen any commentary from anyone who runs the forum. [...]

i guess that tells me where the company really stands.

IIRC, most of the moderators are volunteers... there's really not much in the way of actual Palladium staff engaging with fans here. I doubt we'll see any change in that level of engagement at any point in the foreseeable future, considering the fans are largely no longer inclined to trust the word of a Palladium representative for various reasons that need no repeating.

(Let's be honest, it'd probably go a lot like this.)

Moderators are volunteers, as are MA's. Staff rarely comes on except to hype the latest release.

The world moves on and the RTT fiasco is over and would seem to be only a bad memory for Palladium, they have moved on and so for them it never happenned.

Simple question though, did they as a company lose any monies on this project or did it actually finish in the balck, but with insufficient funds to complye?

Obvious that I want to know if this meant PB actually are holding or have indeed spent any monies that were left

Who isn't disappointed with Palladium these days? *seinfeld theme plays*