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guardiandashi wrote:you could also make the argument that axes and chain saws work on a special vulnerability of trees. much like were creatures and silver because I can also tell you that if you don't use the axe right you can chop and chop on the tree for a long time and not accomplish much. but if you use it right you can cut through the tree pretty fast.

the thing is guns (bullets) are not the correct way to try to cut a tree down, and using it is effectively attacking the tree going up against its greatest resistance to damage, not its weakest way of absorbing damage

I'd say less a specific vulnerability, more a special action. Like you can hit a guy in the throat and he will have a crushed airway and die with minimal damage dealt, or technically if you get someone pinned there are far more disabling things that can be done than just 4D6 sdc damage when wrestling. But those effects aren't listed as a doable action in palladium, same way with using an axe to cut down a tree. If you know what your doing sure its easy, especially if you have good tools, if you don't know what your doing then you could hit a tree for hours and not fell it.

Honestly if you wanna fell a tree in palladium i'm interested in one of the juicer chainsaws to do it...actually i'm more interested in a tree using those chainsaws to cut down people...is this a case of the wrong tool for the right job? But ya, bullets and projectiles aren't the way i'd go...maybe a laser bola from aliens unlimited?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

dreicunan wrote:Point based damage systems do a terrible job of modeling real world damage. They are just a fairly necessary abstraction for a game.

This is a point that's often forgotten. This is a game, written by imperfect beings trying to represent 'life' in a manner that's easy and digestable by a 12 year old. If anything Palladium is more number heavy than many systems and.... as it's trying to replicate life (In miniature) It simplifies a lot of things, and some things are not replicated well. Be it mechanical limitation of the system or ignorance of real life sorts of things (Palladium's lack of technical knowledge/mechanics for example, or lack of military knowledge beyond late 70s/early 80s delta force movies).

So.... trying to expect an RPG to 'accurately portray all real world functions" Is just not going to happen. Some do better than others. Palladium isn't the best. It's not the worst.

Yep. Not every game can be Rolemaster and give you so many optional tables that your ridiculously high stat character ends up dying because he tripped and hit his temple on a stone while walking in the rain (stupid negatively exploding dice).

I sometimes loose sight of this myself. I try to just ask for internally consistent logic for things these days.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:Trees where stated as having 3d4x100 sdc in rifts england.
The trunk of the tree is the main body so it would be like hiding behind the debee with 400 sdc when he gets hit not parring with his fore arm.

A tree would provide about the same amount of protection as sandbags or large rocks used for cover in rifts Merc.

So standing behind a tree 50 or 200ft tall, You get the benefit of 100% of the SDC 6feet or under right at the ground and everything 7 or 8 feet up has..... no SDC?

Come on now blue. That makes no sense what so ever. Clearly the SDC has to be spread out. Now not every twig on every branch has equal SDC, but it's a tree. You can't have 100% of the SDC just in the spot you want to hide behind and leave dozens if not 100s of feet with out. That's like saying a cat hiding behind your ankles gets the benefit of 100% of your SDC if someone's trying to attack it.

Your example is like saying if I destroy a tank by depleting the MDC of the main body from an attack on the right side the front and back have no MDC. While it may seam logical it is not in line with game mechanics.
XDC is a way to track overall damage (especially when dealing with the main body) once that is depleted the thing depleted becomes broken some how. A person dies when broken a tank stops working and a tree might fall over.
So yes if you are hiding behind a tree trunk it would absorb 100% of its sdc before an attack gets through and it falls over. (A GM can rule that it takes full sdc to break/blast through a tree at any specific spot that would be pure house rule.)

Blue_Lion wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:Trees where stated as having 3d4x100 sdc in rifts england.
The trunk of the tree is the main body so it would be like hiding behind the debee with 400 sdc when he gets hit not parring with his fore arm.

A tree would provide about the same amount of protection as sandbags or large rocks used for cover in rifts Merc.

So standing behind a tree 50 or 200ft tall, You get the benefit of 100% of the SDC 6feet or under right at the ground and everything 7 or 8 feet up has..... no SDC?

Come on now blue. That makes no sense what so ever. Clearly the SDC has to be spread out. Now not every twig on every branch has equal SDC, but it's a tree. You can't have 100% of the SDC just in the spot you want to hide behind and leave dozens if not 100s of feet with out. That's like saying a cat hiding behind your ankles gets the benefit of 100% of your SDC if someone's trying to attack it.

Your example is like saying if I destroy a tank by depleting the MDC of the main body from an attack on the right side the front and back have no MDC. While it may seam logical it is not in line with game mechanics.
XDC is a way to track overall damage (especially when dealing with the main body) once that is depleted the thing depleted becomes broken some how. A person dies when broken a tank stops working and a tree might fall over.
So yes if you are hiding behind a tree trunk it would absorb 100% of its sdc before an attack gets through and it falls over. (A GM can rule that it takes full sdc to break/blast through a tree at any specific spot that would be pure house rule.)

Not at all. It's like saying "I'm hiding behind the barrel of the tanks gun, when you destroy that one part then suddenly the rest of the tank has no MDC left"

That's the reason walls and other large objects have SDC/MDC per 'length' or such "100MDC per 10 foot area' Etc.

You can't have something 100 feet tall, and claim 100% of it's SDC is right where you need it. It's spread overt he entire length of the (Whatever).

If you press a vibro blade against the wall of a fortified bunker... when you eventually make your hole, the other 100 feet of walls around the bunker don't suddenly explode.

Any more than if you blast a foot out of a tree (basket ball sized hole) Does the other 99 feet of the tree simply disappear? It's still there. It may fall over but the other 99 feet of the tree don't simply cease to possess SDC. So are we then saying if a tree has 200sdc.. you have to deplete 200sdc per point of impact? Even if your spacing was a foot, that tree just went from 200 sdc to 20,000sdc if it's 100 feet tall.

Thus like other large things the SDC has to be spread around.

And I notice noone had anything to say about the 60 or 70 year old needing 10 attacks per melee to get through a 200sdc tree in that time frame. lol An axe doesn't suddenly multiply damage against a tree, but not your face, if you hit both with the same axe guys.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:Trees where stated as having 3d4x100 sdc in rifts england.
The trunk of the tree is the main body so it would be like hiding behind the debee with 400 sdc when he gets hit not parring with his fore arm.

A tree would provide about the same amount of protection as sandbags or large rocks used for cover in rifts Merc.

So standing behind a tree 50 or 200ft tall, You get the benefit of 100% of the SDC 6feet or under right at the ground and everything 7 or 8 feet up has..... no SDC?

Come on now blue. That makes no sense what so ever. Clearly the SDC has to be spread out. Now not every twig on every branch has equal SDC, but it's a tree. You can't have 100% of the SDC just in the spot you want to hide behind and leave dozens if not 100s of feet with out. That's like saying a cat hiding behind your ankles gets the benefit of 100% of your SDC if someone's trying to attack it.

Your example is like saying if I destroy a tank by depleting the MDC of the main body from an attack on the right side the front and back have no MDC. While it may seam logical it is not in line with game mechanics.
XDC is a way to track overall damage (especially when dealing with the main body) once that is depleted the thing depleted becomes broken some how. A person dies when broken a tank stops working and a tree might fall over.
So yes if you are hiding behind a tree trunk it would absorb 100% of its sdc before an attack gets through and it falls over. (A GM can rule that it takes full sdc to break/blast through a tree at any specific spot that would be pure house rule.)

Not at all. It's like saying "I'm hiding behind the barrel of the tanks gun, when you destroy that one part then suddenly the rest of the tank has no MDC left"

That's the reason walls and other large objects have SDC/MDC per 'length' or such "100MDC per 10 foot area' Etc.

You can't have something 100 feet tall, and claim 100% of it's SDC is right where you need it. It's spread overt he entire length of the (Whatever).

If you press a vibro blade against the wall of a fortified bunker... when you eventually make your hole, the other 100 feet of walls around the bunker don't suddenly explode.

Any more than if you blast a foot out of a tree (basket ball sized hole) Does the other 99 feet of the tree simply disappear? It's still there. It may fall over but the other 99 feet of the tree don't simply cease to possess SDC. So are we then saying if a tree has 200sdc.. you have to deplete 200sdc per point of impact? Even if your spacing was a foot, that tree just went from 200 sdc to 20,000sdc if it's 100 feet tall.

Thus like other large things the SDC has to be spread around.

If you attack a giant that has 200 MDC in its torso, how much damage would you say is required to cut that giant in half?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:Trees where stated as having 3d4x100 sdc in rifts england.
The trunk of the tree is the main body so it would be like hiding behind the debee with 400 sdc when he gets hit not parring with his fore arm.

A tree would provide about the same amount of protection as sandbags or large rocks used for cover in rifts Merc.

So standing behind a tree 50 or 200ft tall, You get the benefit of 100% of the SDC 6feet or under right at the ground and everything 7 or 8 feet up has..... no SDC?

Come on now blue. That makes no sense what so ever. Clearly the SDC has to be spread out. Now not every twig on every branch has equal SDC, but it's a tree. You can't have 100% of the SDC just in the spot you want to hide behind and leave dozens if not 100s of feet with out. That's like saying a cat hiding behind your ankles gets the benefit of 100% of your SDC if someone's trying to attack it.

Your example is like saying if I destroy a tank by depleting the MDC of the main body from an attack on the right side the front and back have no MDC. While it may seam logical it is not in line with game mechanics.
XDC is a way to track overall damage (especially when dealing with the main body) once that is depleted the thing depleted becomes broken some how. A person dies when broken a tank stops working and a tree might fall over.
So yes if you are hiding behind a tree trunk it would absorb 100% of its sdc before an attack gets through and it falls over. (A GM can rule that it takes full sdc to break/blast through a tree at any specific spot that would be pure house rule.)

Not at all. It's like saying "I'm hiding behind the barrel of the tanks gun, when you destroy that one part then suddenly the rest of the tank has no MDC left"

That's the reason walls and other large objects have SDC/MDC per 'length' or such "100MDC per 10 foot area' Etc.

You can't have something 100 feet tall, and claim 100% of it's SDC is right where you need it. It's spread overt he entire length of the (Whatever).

If you press a vibro blade against the wall of a fortified bunker... when you eventually make your hole, the other 100 feet of walls around the bunker don't suddenly explode.

Any more than if you blast a foot out of a tree (basket ball sized hole) Does the other 99 feet of the tree simply disappear? It's still there. It may fall over but the other 99 feet of the tree don't simply cease to possess SDC. So are we then saying if a tree has 200sdc.. you have to deplete 200sdc per point of impact? Even if your spacing was a foot, that tree just went from 200 sdc to 20,000sdc if it's 100 feet tall.

Thus like other large things the SDC has to be spread around.

And I notice noone had anything to say about the 60 or 70 year old needing 10 attacks per melee to get through a 200sdc tree in that time frame. lol An axe doesn't suddenly multiply damage against a tree, but not your face, if you hit both with the same axe guys.

Flawed stance the tanks barrel is not its main body, and the tanks barrel is likely much longer than the part that gets shot. So even if the barrel was 10 foot long if I do 100% of the damage 1 inche of that the whole barrel is destroyed. That one inch section doe not have 1/120 the XDC of the barrel.

Your logic applied to body armor if I deplete the MDC main body at the belly the chest stops to have MDC even though the chest may be unscathed.(Illogical yes but that is the mechanics of the game.)

Trees are not rated X per Y feet in the stats we have the have a flat stat for the main body. So any damage to the main body regardless of where the total is reduced. If say I shoot the tree 20 feet above your head and reduce half its sdc that means if some one else shoots at the part you are hiding behind, it has only half its SDC left to protect you. (other things being rated XDC per X feet does not mean things without such a rating have there reduced.) It may not be the most logical but that is how common damage pool systems work.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:Trees where stated as having 3d4x100 sdc in rifts england.
The trunk of the tree is the main body so it would be like hiding behind the debee with 400 sdc when he gets hit not parring with his fore arm.

A tree would provide about the same amount of protection as sandbags or large rocks used for cover in rifts Merc.

So standing behind a tree 50 or 200ft tall, You get the benefit of 100% of the SDC 6feet or under right at the ground and everything 7 or 8 feet up has..... no SDC?

Come on now blue. That makes no sense what so ever. Clearly the SDC has to be spread out. Now not every twig on every branch has equal SDC, but it's a tree. You can't have 100% of the SDC just in the spot you want to hide behind and leave dozens if not 100s of feet with out. That's like saying a cat hiding behind your ankles gets the benefit of 100% of your SDC if someone's trying to attack it.

Your example is like saying if I destroy a tank by depleting the MDC of the main body from an attack on the right side the front and back have no MDC. While it may seam logical it is not in line with game mechanics.
XDC is a way to track overall damage (especially when dealing with the main body) once that is depleted the thing depleted becomes broken some how. A person dies when broken a tank stops working and a tree might fall over.
So yes if you are hiding behind a tree trunk it would absorb 100% of its sdc before an attack gets through and it falls over. (A GM can rule that it takes full sdc to break/blast through a tree at any specific spot that would be pure house rule.)

Not at all. It's like saying "I'm hiding behind the barrel of the tanks gun, when you destroy that one part then suddenly the rest of the tank has no MDC left"

That's the reason walls and other large objects have SDC/MDC per 'length' or such "100MDC per 10 foot area' Etc.

You can't have something 100 feet tall, and claim 100% of it's SDC is right where you need it. It's spread overt he entire length of the (Whatever).

If you press a vibro blade against the wall of a fortified bunker... when you eventually make your hole, the other 100 feet of walls around the bunker don't suddenly explode.

Any more than if you blast a foot out of a tree (basket ball sized hole) Does the other 99 feet of the tree simply disappear? It's still there. It may fall over but the other 99 feet of the tree don't simply cease to possess SDC. So are we then saying if a tree has 200sdc.. you have to deplete 200sdc per point of impact? Even if your spacing was a foot, that tree just went from 200 sdc to 20,000sdc if it's 100 feet tall.

Thus like other large things the SDC has to be spread around.

If you attack a giant that has 200 MDC in its torso, how much damage would you say is required to cut that giant in half?

Best I know Giant's don't have specific MDC per location. So it's not how much MDC is required to cut him in half at the torso,

But would you say his ankle has 200MDC and when you cut off a foot. is he suddenly dead. Cuz that's what you're saying with the tree. That the entire other 99 feet have zero SDC and the one point you're shooting at has it all.

I understand the concept of 'Main body' but I don't think there's a listing for 'Main body' of a tree. It's jsut given a flat SDC. Which means that SDC is indeed spread about.

Other wise it leads to.. well. One point having 100% of the SDC for the entire thing and the rest having zero.

So say you're right. You have 100% SDC at the point of attack. Boom Tree's down. So with that logic you've done all the damage to the tree that you can. Tree has no more SDC, so the other 99 feet of the tree can easily be pulled apart into fire wood, because with 0 SDC left, those other 99 feet of hardwood.... have no SDC and thus... none to deplete, and thus. 99 feet of effortless firewood.

Because other wise you're saying that the 100ft tree has 100% of SDC per foot. Which literally would multiply it's SDC by.. well 100. (Or if it's a 20 foot tree, by 20, or what ever in between)

Having grown up in the south, and cut quite a lot of fire wood in my day. I can say with 100% certinty. The trees have more to them than the one place they're cut down.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

killer cyborg wrote:If you attack a giant that has 200 MDC in its torso, how much damage would you say is required to cut that giant in half?

Best I know Giant's don't have specific MDC per location. So it's not how much MDC is required to cut him in half at the torso,

Same applies to trees.
It may not make sense in all cases but xDC pools are a way to track over all damage before death/destruction.

If something does not have hit locations then an attack depleting all available xDC kills it.
If something is the largest part of something it is the main body, depleting all xDC of the main body kills it.

While a tree trunk might be 100 feet long it is still a single part of the tree and as the largest part it would be the MDC.

While some thing may have xDC per Y feet that is not a standard those are special cases, and that is why they tell you it is per Y feet. Lacking such a note in the stats means it is just one pool regardless of size.

Think of it this way xDC pools are like water and attacks that do damage drain a set amount of that water away.
Once the pool is empty the object is destroyed/dead. what that looks like per creature is up to the GM, a sdc could be blown in half, be cut arpart or just have a clean break.

The rest of it still exists but is effectively been destroyed/killed. You can skill attack something that is dead if you want to. But for general practical purposes there is no reason to track damage beyond the point that killed it. The rules do not cover every situation and being able to find logical flaws in rules does not negate they are the default of how the game works.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

killer cyborg wrote:If you attack a giant that has 200 MDC in its torso, how much damage would you say is required to cut that giant in half?

Best I know Giant's don't have specific MDC per location. So it's not how much MDC is required to cut him in half at the torso,

Same applies to trees.
It may not make sense in all cases but xDC pools are a way to track over all damage before death/destruction.

If something does not have hit locations then an attack depleting all available xDC kills it.
If something is the largest part of something it is the main body, depleting all xDC of the main body kills it.

While a tree trunk might be 100 feet long it is still a single part of the tree and as the largest part it would be the MDC.

While some thing may have xDC per Y feet that is not a standard those are special cases, and that is why they tell you it is per Y feet. Lacking such a note in the stats means it is just one pool regardless of size.

Think of it this way xDC pools are like water and attacks that do damage drain a set amount of that water away.
Once the pool is empty the object is destroyed/dead. what that looks like per creature is up to the GM, a sdc could be blown in half, be cut arpart or just have a clean break.

The rest of it still exists but is effectively been destroyed/killed. You can skill attack something that is dead if you want to. But for general practical purposes there is no reason to track damage beyond the point that killed it. The rules do not cover every situation and being able to find logical flaws in rules does not negate they are the default of how the game works.

Then I refer you back to cutting a 100foot tree down for firewood.

By your assumptions once you cut the tree down ((Attack at one point) You need to do 100% of the trees SDC to get it to fall over.

Ok. Boom. Tree is down. The other 99 feet of tree have 0 SDC?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

killer cyborg wrote:If you attack a giant that has 200 MDC in its torso, how much damage would you say is required to cut that giant in half?

Best I know Giant's don't have specific MDC per location. So it's not how much MDC is required to cut him in half at the torso,

Same applies to trees.
It may not make sense in all cases but xDC pools are a way to track over all damage before death/destruction.

If something does not have hit locations then an attack depleting all available xDC kills it.
If something is the largest part of something it is the main body, depleting all xDC of the main body kills it.

While a tree trunk might be 100 feet long it is still a single part of the tree and as the largest part it would be the MDC.

While some thing may have xDC per Y feet that is not a standard those are special cases, and that is why they tell you it is per Y feet. Lacking such a note in the stats means it is just one pool regardless of size.

Think of it this way xDC pools are like water and attacks that do damage drain a set amount of that water away.
Once the pool is empty the object is destroyed/dead. what that looks like per creature is up to the GM, a sdc could be blown in half, be cut arpart or just have a clean break.

The rest of it still exists but is effectively been destroyed/killed. You can skill attack something that is dead if you want to. But for general practical purposes there is no reason to track damage beyond the point that killed it. The rules do not cover every situation and being able to find logical flaws in rules does not negate they are the default of how the game works.

Then I refer you back to cutting a 100foot tree down for firewood.

By your assumptions once you cut the tree down ((Attack at one point) You need to do 100% of the trees SDC to get it to fall over.

Ok. Boom. Tree is down. The other 99 feet of tree have 0 SDC?

SDC is the amount of damage needed to killl a living thing. Once it is dead there is typical no practical reason to keep tracking damage for combat.

Cutting of fire wood is unrelated to damage needed to kill(cut down) the tree or general combat. Just as cutting meet off a dead animal is unrelated to the amount of damage needed to kill it. These actions are outside of combat and unrelated to combat rules for killing destroying things. Being reduced to 0 sdc does not cause an object to stop existing just mean it is dead/broken some how.

Why do you keep referring to tasks unrelated to combat task to question combat rules?

Blue_Lion wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

killer cyborg wrote:If you attack a giant that has 200 MDC in its torso, how much damage would you say is required to cut that giant in half?

Best I know Giant's don't have specific MDC per location. So it's not how much MDC is required to cut him in half at the torso,

Same applies to trees.
It may not make sense in all cases but xDC pools are a way to track over all damage before death/destruction.

If something does not have hit locations then an attack depleting all available xDC kills it.
If something is the largest part of something it is the main body, depleting all xDC of the main body kills it.

While a tree trunk might be 100 feet long it is still a single part of the tree and as the largest part it would be the MDC.

While some thing may have xDC per Y feet that is not a standard those are special cases, and that is why they tell you it is per Y feet. Lacking such a note in the stats means it is just one pool regardless of size.

Think of it this way xDC pools are like water and attacks that do damage drain a set amount of that water away.
Once the pool is empty the object is destroyed/dead. what that looks like per creature is up to the GM, a sdc could be blown in half, be cut arpart or just have a clean break.

The rest of it still exists but is effectively been destroyed/killed. You can skill attack something that is dead if you want to. But for general practical purposes there is no reason to track damage beyond the point that killed it. The rules do not cover every situation and being able to find logical flaws in rules does not negate they are the default of how the game works.

Then I refer you back to cutting a 100foot tree down for firewood.

By your assumptions once you cut the tree down ((Attack at one point) You need to do 100% of the trees SDC to get it to fall over.

Ok. Boom. Tree is down. The other 99 feet of tree have 0 SDC?

SDC is the amount of damage needed to killl a living thing. Once it is dead there is typical no practical reason to keep tracking damage for combat.

Cutting of fire wood is unrelated to damage needed to kill(cut down) the tree or general combat. Just as cutting meet off a dead animal is unrelated to the amount of damage needed to kill it. These actions are outside of combat and unrelated to combat rules for killing destroying things. Being reduced to 0 sdc does not cause an object to stop existing just mean it is dead/broken some how.

Why do you keep referring to tasks unrelated to combat task to question combat rules?

Well that's just a false assumption on the face of it. All physical things in palladium either have SDC or MDC
A book as SDC. A table has SDC, a computer monitor has SDC. None of those are alive. A phone has SDC, a toy car has SDC.

While a tree alive, has SDC, so does a wall built of wood, that's not alive.

If you're trying to get through the wall, you strike it. A strike is an attack roll and you have to deplete the SDC of said wall to form a hole to get through.

Cutting firewood IS related to damage needed to hack off the next foot of firewood. Or have you never cut firewood? Once you cut down the tree it doesn't just explode into nice easy to handle proper sized logs mate. You gotta cut it up. How do you cut it up? You apply damage to it with an axe or saw.

It has to do with combat rules because people are talking about attacking the trees. lol. Be it with mini guns or axes or flying into them at high speed, or what have you. If you're not applying damage to said tree in SOME fashion why would you need to know it's SDC? lol

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Best I know Giant's don't have specific MDC per location. So it's not how much MDC is required to cut him in half at the torso,

Same applies to trees.
It may not make sense in all cases but xDC pools are a way to track over all damage before death/destruction.

If something does not have hit locations then an attack depleting all available xDC kills it.
If something is the largest part of something it is the main body, depleting all xDC of the main body kills it.

While a tree trunk might be 100 feet long it is still a single part of the tree and as the largest part it would be the MDC.

While some thing may have xDC per Y feet that is not a standard those are special cases, and that is why they tell you it is per Y feet. Lacking such a note in the stats means it is just one pool regardless of size.

Think of it this way xDC pools are like water and attacks that do damage drain a set amount of that water away.
Once the pool is empty the object is destroyed/dead. what that looks like per creature is up to the GM, a sdc could be blown in half, be cut arpart or just have a clean break.

The rest of it still exists but is effectively been destroyed/killed. You can skill attack something that is dead if you want to. But for general practical purposes there is no reason to track damage beyond the point that killed it. The rules do not cover every situation and being able to find logical flaws in rules does not negate they are the default of how the game works.

Then I refer you back to cutting a 100foot tree down for firewood.

By your assumptions once you cut the tree down ((Attack at one point) You need to do 100% of the trees SDC to get it to fall over.

Ok. Boom. Tree is down. The other 99 feet of tree have 0 SDC?

SDC is the amount of damage needed to killl a living thing. Once it is dead there is typical no practical reason to keep tracking damage for combat.

Cutting of fire wood is unrelated to damage needed to kill(cut down) the tree or general combat. Just as cutting meet off a dead animal is unrelated to the amount of damage needed to kill it. These actions are outside of combat and unrelated to combat rules for killing destroying things. Being reduced to 0 sdc does not cause an object to stop existing just mean it is dead/broken some how.

Why do you keep referring to tasks unrelated to combat task to question combat rules?

Well that's just a false assumption on the face of it. All physical things in palladium either have SDC or MDC
A book as SDC. A table has SDC, a computer monitor has SDC. None of those are alive. A phone has SDC, a toy car has SDC.

While a tree alive, has SDC, so does a wall built of wood, that's not alive.

If you're trying to get through the wall, you strike it. A strike is an attack roll and you have to deplete the SDC of said wall to form a hole to get through.

Cutting firewood IS related to damage needed to hack off the next foot of firewood. Or have you never cut firewood? Once you cut down the tree it doesn't just explode into nice easy to handle proper sized logs mate. You gotta cut it up. How do you cut it up? You apply damage to it with an axe or saw.

It has to do with combat rules because people are talking about attacking the trees. lol. Be it with mini guns or axes or flying into them at high speed, or what have you. If you're not applying damage to said tree in SOME fashion why would you need to know it's SDC? lol

SDC for non living things is the amount of damage before they are broken. I was talking about living because a tree is alive before it is attacked. (I already talked about living and non-living. I focused on living in my last post because the target is a living tree. So my stance is not flawed as you claim.

Cutting fire wood is unrelated to combat tracking of damage. It is a task that takes X amount of time. You are not in combat when doing cutting a log into fire wood and damage done in a fight will not make the tree ct into fire wood.-So yes it is unrelated to tracking damage in combat. (I grew up in a wood heated house and never considered cutting fire wood combat, it was a chore that took time and energy.) Even if you cut a tree down in combat if you want it to be cut into peaces for a fire you need to spend the time.

Attacking a tree and cutting fire wood are unrelated. Attacking a tree is not attempting to get it in need peaces for a fire but either kill/cut it down or get it out of the way. As such it is unrelated to a task that has the goal of making peaces that fit in a fire.

***As I said cutting of fire wood is as unrelated to combat as cutting meat of a dead animal is. Even though the animal/tree has been reduced to 0 combat xDC you need to spend time on a non combat task to get it cut in smaller peaces. What you are posing is flawed concept that needing to spend time to cut something up after it is broken/killed equals combat.

Being a "Living" Tree has no bearing on the conversation. It's not Groot. It's not fighting back. Attacking a living tree is no different from attacking a telephone pole made of wood.

Cutting wood is related because by your logic 100% of the SDC of the tree is at any point in time at any place along the body of the tree.

So you have to overcome the SDC to cut it down.

But that leaves the entire rest of the tree laying on the ground with no sdc. It makes no sense.

If you're going to cut up the tree for firewood you're going to HAVE to STRIKE it. Either with an Axe, Or with a chainsaw. Yes, Applying damage to the 'dead' inanimate object to cut it up.

It's a chore yes, but not one that's completed through time alone. Physical effort. Yes, striking the tree, is required. Just like you have to strike a door to break it down, or strike a dam to burst it, etc.

And again it's not so much about cutting up the animal. It's about your insistance that 100% of the tree's SDC is in a one foot area to be overcome,t hus rendering the other 99 feet of tree with none.

To extrapolate that, the entire tree would be 100 times as strong as any 1 foot cross section which would make trees in total, many 100MDC

As I said the SDC is the amount to kill/break a tree. You are right cutting down a telephone pole would be similar but really that is more of nitpicking at this point.

As I pointed out SDC is a way to track damage until something is killed/destroyed. Typically for combat there is no reason to track damage after something is killed destroyed. What you are doing is using a non-combat situation to challenge combat rules.

I have pointed out it is a mechanic and game mechanics are not always 100% logical especially when you are dealing with abnormal situation.

Dealing with the body of a slain animal is relevant to understanding to your stance. I shoot a dear reduce it to 0 SDC/HP and kill it in one shot making a hole that is less than 1/100 the size of the dear. That means while effectively it has 0 sdc left for the rest the body it is still dead. When it comes to destroying a tree for combat the number of places hit and where you strike the trunk makes no diffrence. The tree is effectivly killed/destroyed once its total SDC is reduced to 0. Is it 100% logical all the time?-No- Is it still the mechanic of the game?-yes-

I get it you think the mechanic is flawed logically but that does not change the default mechanic. Thing is as a GM you have the power to house rule things in your game but that does not change the default rules. And what I am talking about is the default rule.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:If you attack a giant that has 200 MDC in its torso, how much damage would you say is required to cut that giant in half?

Best I know Giant's don't have specific MDC per location. So it's not how much MDC is required to cut him in half at the torso,

Why not?
What IS required to cut him in half, if not damage?

Say you have a tree with 100 SDC. How much damage do you believe it takes to cut it in half?
Say you have a human with 100 SDC/HP. How much damage do you believe it takes to cut him/her in half?
And why?

But would you say his ankle has 200MDC and when you cut off a foot. is he suddenly dead. Cuz that's what you're saying with the tree. That the entire other 99 feet have zero SDC and the one point you're shooting at has it all.

Uh... no.
Look, when that 3 MD laser blast blows a 300 SDC car in half in the combat example, what exactly do you think is the result?
That each remaining half of the car has 25 SDC...?

When (SB1 p. 6) 2 points of mega-damage tear a deer "in half", leaving "enough food to provide for several days," do you believe that the remaining deer parts have 0 SDC?

When you use SDC bullets to shoot a human to death, and you deplete their SDC and their HP, down to zero or below, what do you think happens?
You think the person is atomized by the bullets?
You think that the corpse has zero SDC?

Explain what your thought process is, because I'm not following it.
You seem to be thinking that the SDC/HP pool represents the entire structural integrity of the target, that any pieces or chunks of any one damage pool that's depleted, have zero SDC/MDC.

Is that really how you see it?
Because if so, I think you'll find that you're in the minority interpretation.

RUE 347
SDC
This stands for Structural Damage Capacity, which is the amount of damage an object can absorb before breaking.

"Breaking."
Not "Being completely torn into various pieces that have <1 SDC."

If you kick a door hard enough, it will break when it runs out of SDC.
That doesn't mean that the remaining boards don't have any SDC of their own.
Same with trees and giants, when you cut them in half.

I understand the concept of 'Main body' but I don't think there's a listing for 'Main body' of a tree. It's jsut given a flat SDC. Which means that SDC is indeed spread about.

I also don't think that there's a listing for "main body."
I don't think that necessarily means that the SDC is spread throughout the entire tree.
SDC is the amount of damage that the tree can take before it breaks, not before it's disintegrated.
Just like the HP/SDC of a human or a giant is the amount of damage that it can take before it lapses into a coma (note that there are still obviously SDC/HP left in the comatose body, because that's how they can survive into negative numbers to a point).

Because other wise you're saying that the 100ft tree has 100% of SDC per foot. Which literally would multiply it's SDC by.. well 100. (Or if it's a 20 foot tree, by 20, or what ever in between)

Not per foot, no. And it depends on how the damage is distributed.
Trees have one damage pool, and by the rules damage done to any parts of the tree effectively all go toward breaking the tree.
You can shoot the upper trunk, various branches, various parts of the lower trunk, and when the total reaches the tree's SDC, the tree breaks.
It's NOT disintegrated.

Having grown up in the south, and cut quite a lot of fire wood in my day. I can say with 100% certinty. The trees have more to them than the one place they're cut down.

Agreed.
So the the idea that the tree's SDC represents all the damage capacity in every square inch of the tree makes zero sense to me.
Again, the SDC only represents the amount of damage the tree can take before it breaks.
A think can be broken multiple times. You can break a tree in half, then break those halves in half, then break THOSE halves in half, and so on.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Having grown up in the south, and cut quite a lot of fire wood in my day. I can say with 100% certinty. The trees have more to them than the one place they're cut down.

Agreed.
So the the idea that the tree's SDC represents all the damage capacity in every square inch of the tree makes zero sense to me.
Again, the SDC only represents the amount of damage the tree can take before it breaks.
A think can be broken multiple times. You can break a tree in half, then break those halves in half, then break THOSE halves in half, and so on.

It boils down to this part here.

You're saying "SDC represents the amount of damage the tree can take before it breaks"

ok.

You're shooting it with a laser pistol. You make a hole the size of a basket ball (YES Disintegrating it.)it's SDC is reduced to Zero. Tree is 'broken' and falls over. .

Tree has no more SDC.

Now.... tree is on the ground. All except for the foot that you vaporized with your pistol.

Does the other 99% of the tree suddenly regain SDC? If so how much? You 'broke' the tree with one shot but usually falling over doesn't do that much damage to trees. A few branches break but they're pretty much intact on the ground.

Please explain how the same tree, who's SDC you've reduced to Zero. Suddenly has SDC again?

You're saying "You can break it in half, then again and again"

Ok.Well breaking it means it has SDC. By your point, for purposes of example lets say the tree has 100sdc, and is 100ft tall, so for the example the foot you blew out of it with your laser pistol, 'broke' the tree by reducing it to zero.

To break the tree again.... You have to reduce it's SDC to Zero again.

So.... you ARE saying that the tree has multiples of the overall SDC, that need to be depleted time and time again. Effectively multiplying that SDC by how ever many feet of tree you're blowing away to 'break' it. in this example it was a 100ft tree.

So instead of the tree having 100SDC... by your logic above it has 100SDC per foot(Because you have to keep breaking it and the pistol takes out a basket ball sized hole with each blast). Which changes it from a 100SDC tree to a 10,000sdc tree.....

See the problem?

The tree falls over when you deplete the SDC, but clearly, -CLEARLY- there's still plenty of tree there. So that COULDN"T have been the entire SDC, as you'd have to replicate that blast 100 times to deplete "all" the SDC.

So in your example yes the tree has 100SDC per foot.... and thus... 10,000SDC overall. So instead of being listed as 100SDC shouldn't it be listed as 10,000SDC?

"Breaking" the entire tree would be either blowing it into splinters or vaporizing it.

What you're doing is making a called shot at one single location on the tree.

Your 'You can shoot it all over" Only works in part as well. iif you shoot the top 10 feet off the tree, and deplete it's "Main body" SDC up there... what about the other 90 feet of tree UNDER that 10 foot section??

Clearly it's still standing. clearly shooting the top 10 feet off the tree didn't break the entire tree. It's got 90ft of tree that's perfectly fine.

If you blow the top 10 feet off the tree the rest of the tree doesn't rip itself out of the ground and throw it self down in sympathetic death.

So... -again- the tree has SDC spread from the bottom to the top. Thus the trees ENTIRE SDC is spread over that distance.

So yes.. in effect a tree -must- spread it's SDC from top to bottom, OR you're multiply that SDC by how ever tall the thing is.

To make a similar point.

There's a wall of trees. Someone planted them and cultivated them to grow RIGHT beside one another. Each tree is 100 feet tall.

You come along and aim at the top with your laser and blow off the top 10 feet of each tree. Depleating the SDC to do so.

Now you're standing at the base of a wall of 90 foot trees. Do they suddenly get more SDC? You've blown off the top 10 feet. You 'broke' them by making holes big enough to make that 10 feet fall over

But you're still looking at a 90 foot wall that is perfectly able to keep you from the other side.

Please explain how you can 1) Deplete the entire SDC of an object and 2) object still be 90% there, with no SDC left to deplete.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Having grown up in the south, and cut quite a lot of fire wood in my day. I can say with 100% certinty. The trees have more to them than the one place they're cut down.

Agreed.
So the the idea that the tree's SDC represents all the damage capacity in every square inch of the tree makes zero sense to me.
Again, the SDC only represents the amount of damage the tree can take before it breaks.
A think can be broken multiple times. You can break a tree in half, then break those halves in half, then break THOSE halves in half, and so on.

It boils down to this part here.

You're saying "SDC represents the amount of damage the tree can take before it breaks"

ok.

You're shooting it with a laser pistol. You make a hole the size of a basket ball (YES Disintegrating it.)it's SDC is reduced to Zero. Tree is 'broken' and falls over. .

Tree has no more SDC.

Now.... tree is on the ground. All except for the foot that you vaporized with your pistol.

Does the other 99% of the tree suddenly regain SDC?

No.
The other 99% of the tree never lost SDC in this case.
SDC represents the amount of damage needed to break the object, NOT the amount of damage needed to completely disintegrate or atomize the object.

When you cut a tree in half with a chainsaw, you only damage the part of the tree that you're cutting, so only that part loses SDC.
When you inflict enough damage to deplete the tree's SDC, you've cut through that one part of the tree, but the rest of the tree is perfectly intact (minus possible falling damage)--just like in real life.

If so how much? You 'broke' the tree with one shot but usually falling over doesn't do that much damage to trees. A few branches break but they're pretty much intact on the ground.

That's the GM's call.
I'd probably go with each half of the tree having 1/2 of the original SDC.

Please explain how the same tree, who's SDC you've reduced to Zero. Suddenly has SDC again?

You're saying "You can break it in half, then again and again"

Ok.Well breaking it means it has SDC. By your point, for purposes of example lets say the tree has 100sdc, and is 100ft tall, so for the example the foot you blew out of it with your laser pistol, 'broke' the tree by reducing it to zero.

To break the tree again.... You have to reduce it's SDC to Zero again.

Well, you can't really break [The Tree] again--it's already broken.
Now you're looking at two different objects: two tree-halfs.
Each of these objects have their own SDC.

So.... you ARE saying that the tree has multiples of the overall SDC, that need to be depleted time and time again. Effectively multiplying that SDC by how ever many feet of tree you're blowing away to 'break' it. in this example it was a 100ft tree.

Kind of?
What I'm saying is that depleting the damage capacity of a target does not as a rule atomize the target: there are pieces left, and those pieces have their own damage capacity.

So instead of the tree having 100SDC... by your logic above it has 100SDC per foot(Because you have to keep breaking it and the pistol takes out a basket ball sized hole with each blast). Which changes it from a 100SDC tree to a 10,000sdc tree.....

Not "per foot," no.
The tree requires a certain amount of damage to break the tree.
But each broken part has its own SDC, a certain amount of damage required to break that piece.
Just like in life.

If you grab a broomstick in real life, and you break it in half, does it disintegrate?
No.
It breaks, and now you're left with two new items, two broomstick-halves.
Can these two new items be damaged? Yes.
If you inflict enough damage to them, will they in turn break? Yes.

It's the same way in the game.

See the problem?

No.

The tree falls over when you deplete the SDC, but clearly, -CLEARLY- there's still plenty of tree there. So that COULDN"T have been the entire SDC, as you'd have to replicate that blast 100 times to deplete "all" the SDC.

Essentially correct.
This is why people and objects don't disintegrate when their SDC/HP are depleted--that number doesn't represent the amount of damage required to completely atomize them.
There ARE pieces left, as a rule, and those pieces tend to have their own damage capacity.

So in your example yes the tree has 100SDC per foot.... and thus... 10,000SDC overall. So instead of being listed as 100SDC shouldn't it be listed as 10,000SDC?

No, because the SDC listing is the amount of damage required to break an object, not to atomize the object.

Your 'You can shoot it all over" Only works in part as well. iif you shoot the top 10 feet off the tree, and deplete it's "Main body" SDC up there... what about the other 90 feet of tree UNDER that 10 foot section??

That part of the tree is unbroken, because you did not shoot it.

Clearly it's still standing. clearly shooting the top 10 feet off the tree didn't break the entire tree. It's got 90ft of tree that's perfectly fine.

Correct.
The attack broke "The Tree."
A tree that's had 10% of it blown away? It's broken.
It's just not atomized.

If you blow the top 10 feet off the tree the rest of the tree doesn't rip itself out of the ground and throw it self down in sympathetic death.

Exactly.

So... -again- the tree has SDC spread from the bottom to the top. Thus the trees ENTIRE SDC is spread over that distance.

So yes.. in effect a tree -must- spread it's SDC from top to bottom, OR you're multiply that SDC by how ever tall the thing is.

Yes, but SDC still represents the amount of damage require to break the tree, not to atomize it.

To make a similar point.

There's a wall of trees. Someone planted them and cultivated them to grow RIGHT beside one another. Each tree is 100 feet tall.

You come along and aim at the top with your laser and blow off the top 10 feet of each tree. Depleating the SDC to do so.

Now you're standing at the base of a wall of 90 foot trees. Do they suddenly get more SDC? You've blown off the top 10 feet. You 'broke' them by making holes big enough to make that 10 feet fall over

But you're still looking at a 90 foot wall that is perfectly able to keep you from the other side.

Please explain how you can 1) Deplete the entire SDC of an object and 2) object still be 90% there, with no SDC left to deplete.

Already answered: it's NOT left there with no SDC to deplete.
Breaking an object does not mean that the object is atomized.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Breaking an object does not mean that the object is atomized.

Ya, if that was true then breaking an atom would mean it was atomized

Blue_Lion wrote:Trees where stated as having 3d4x100 sdc in rifts england.
The trunk of the tree is the main body so it would be like hiding behind the debee with 400 sdc when he gets hit not parring with his fore arm.

A tree would provide about the same amount of protection as sandbags or large rocks used for cover in rifts Merc.

And really this is the answer
if it has 3d4x100 SDC then the answer is "It has between 300 and 1200 SDC"
Once it takes those points it is dead. What THAT means... well that depends on the GM. And by that I mean is it a standing dead tree, or does it fall, or explode, or burst into fire or what have you. A lot of that will depend on how it takes those points of damage, how quickly, from what source and/or effect. Getting them from life drain spells over a period of hours is going to be different than getting it all at once from a nuclear blast after all.

eliakon wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:Trees where stated as having 3d4x100 sdc in rifts england.
The trunk of the tree is the main body so it would be like hiding behind the debee with 400 sdc when he gets hit not parring with his fore arm.

A tree would provide about the same amount of protection as sandbags or large rocks used for cover in rifts Merc.

And really this is the answer
if it has 3d4x100 SDC then the answer is "It has between 300 and 1200 SDC"
Once it takes those points it is dead. What THAT means... well that depends on the GM. And by that I mean is it a standing dead tree, or does it fall, or explode, or burst into fire or what have you. A lot of that will depend on how it takes those points of damage, how quickly, from what source and/or effect. Getting them from life drain spells over a period of hours is going to be different than getting it all at once from a nuclear blast after all.

If I understand what he was saying he was auguring that trees should have sdc per foot. And that the not having it makes no sense so that rules for how they are stated are wrong.

actually the 'per [length/volume]' vs 'total' discussion is pretty valid..

right now the only way to actually cut down a tree during combat is to deplete its SDC. which presumably you are doing too out of combat, you can just ignore the need to make a ton of rolls and eyeball it since there are fewer time constraints.

so if the SDC is total, that cut tree ought to be useless for anything else defensive (pallisades, walls, etc) because the SDC is gone.

but if the listed sdc is by say, every 10ft, you are only depleting the sdc of that one section of tree, and the rest of the wood is uneffected. making the fact you can cut down a 200 sdc tree, plane it into planks, and still build 200 sdc worth of wood walls from it.

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually the 'per [length/volume]' vs 'total' discussion is pretty valid..

right now the only way to actually cut down a tree during combat is to deplete its SDC. which presumably you are doing too out of combat, you can just ignore the need to make a ton of rolls and eyeball it since there are fewer time constraints.

so if the SDC is total, that cut tree ought to be useless for anything else defensive (pallisades, walls, etc) because the SDC is gone.

but if the listed sdc is by say, every 10ft, you are only depleting the sdc of that one section of tree, and the rest of the wood is uneffected. making the fact you can cut down a 200 sdc tree, plane it into planks, and still build 200 sdc worth of wood walls from it.

So if sdc is the amount of damage needed to break something some how, why would a peace of something once broken have no resistance to being broken again? (not like if I break a broom in half it takes no force/damage to break the haves of it again. Just typically in most combat there is no reason to track force to break it again.)

10' sections to break pools would have the same issue if it worked the way you are suggesting. I take a tree and cut it in to 5' sections each would have the same issue. I use the tree to make chairs that are smaller than 10 sections.

The issue is not the size of what you are breaking but a lack of understanding of mechanics.

Blue_Lion wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually the 'per [length/volume]' vs 'total' discussion is pretty valid..

right now the only way to actually cut down a tree during combat is to deplete its SDC. which presumably you are doing too out of combat, you can just ignore the need to make a ton of rolls and eyeball it since there are fewer time constraints.

so if the SDC is total, that cut tree ought to be useless for anything else defensive (pallisades, walls, etc) because the SDC is gone.

but if the listed sdc is by say, every 10ft, you are only depleting the sdc of that one section of tree, and the rest of the wood is uneffected. making the fact you can cut down a 200 sdc tree, plane it into planks, and still build 200 sdc worth of wood walls from it.

So if sdc is the amount of damage needed to break something some how, why would a peace of something once broken have no resistance to being broken again? (not like if I break a broom in half it takes no force/damage to break the haves of it again. Just typically in most combat there is no reason to track force to break it again.)

10' sections to break pools would have the same issue if it worked the way you are suggesting. I take a tree and cut it in to 5' sections each would have the same issue. I use the tree to make chairs that are smaller than 10 sections.

The issue is not the size of what you are breaking but a lack of understanding of mechanics.

we DO understand the mechanics
The mechanics are NOT the same as real world physics though.
Things in the game have an SDC pool.
Damage to them comes out of said pool.
If the pool is depleted the thing has no SDC and is 'destroyed'
things that have no SDC have no value as cover... as they do not reduce the attack by anything as they have no SDC to stop the attack WITH.

The problem is that the mechanics are, as in many cases, wonky due to the need to have something that is playable. As such the rules for the total SDC of an object do not always match the rules for locations.
This is best shown by looking at a person... you do not have to reduce their total SDC to zero to cut off their arm...
...the question of course is if the damage to the arm ALSO damages the 'main pool'

eliakon wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually the 'per [length/volume]' vs 'total' discussion is pretty valid..

right now the only way to actually cut down a tree during combat is to deplete its SDC. which presumably you are doing too out of combat, you can just ignore the need to make a ton of rolls and eyeball it since there are fewer time constraints.

so if the SDC is total, that cut tree ought to be useless for anything else defensive (pallisades, walls, etc) because the SDC is gone.

but if the listed sdc is by say, every 10ft, you are only depleting the sdc of that one section of tree, and the rest of the wood is uneffected. making the fact you can cut down a 200 sdc tree, plane it into planks, and still build 200 sdc worth of wood walls from it.

So if sdc is the amount of damage needed to break something some how, why would a peace of something once broken have no resistance to being broken again? (not like if I break a broom in half it takes no force/damage to break the haves of it again. Just typically in most combat there is no reason to track force to break it again.)

10' sections to break pools would have the same issue if it worked the way you are suggesting. I take a tree and cut it in to 5' sections each would have the same issue. I use the tree to make chairs that are smaller than 10 sections.

The issue is not the size of what you are breaking but a lack of understanding of mechanics.

we DO understand the mechanics
The mechanics are NOT the same as real world physics though.
Things in the game have an SDC pool.
Damage to them comes out of said pool.
If the pool is depleted the thing has no SDC and is 'destroyed'

a) I already quoted the rule that states that SDC determines when an object is broken. Can you cite the rule that states the object is "destroyed?"
b) A tree is one distinct object, with its own SDC pool
When that tree is broken (or even "destroyed"), new objects are effectively created, the various debris and pieces left over from the tree. Each object that is effectively created this way has its own SDC.
This is why you can take an oak tree, deplete its SDC by cutting it in half, then deplete the SDC of that half-tree by further cutting, and so forth.
With enough cutting, you end up with boards, each of which has their own SDC that is independent of the original Tree's SDC, as well as of the tree-half's SDC, and each larger piece along the way.
If you take some of these boards, you can build a door, and THAT will have its own SDC that exists independently from the original tree, the half-tree, the boards', and so on.

What's the alternative?
A tree has 180 SDC, and you inflict 180 SDC, and.... what?
It's reduced to <1 SDC chunks of wood or dust? The rules don't say that.
Or maybe it's reduced to large pieces, each of which have <1 SDC? Again, the rules don't say that either.

180 SDC is the amount of damage required to break the tree, not to atomize it.

Just like in the real world, you can cut a tree in half in the game world, and the result is two halves of a tree, each of which have their own level of durability to deal with.
Game mechanics and real world physics are NOT the same thing, but in this case the game mechanics are a fairly decent simulation.

The problem is that the mechanics are, as in many cases, wonky due to the need to have something that is playable. As such the rules for the total SDC of an object do not always match the rules for locations.
This is best shown by looking at a person... you do not have to reduce their total SDC to zero to cut off their arm...
...the question of course is if the damage to the arm ALSO damages the 'main pool'

Do the rules ever specifically address cutting arms or legs off of people?
I don't recall.

Again, if you take a person (in the game), and you cut them in half, how would this be represented mechanically?

By my understanding and recall, you'd have to inflict damage equal or greater to their [HP+SDC+PE+1].
And there's nothing in the rules I'm aware of stating, declaring, nor indicating, that those two half-persons you'd end up with wouldn't be able to be used as cover, nor that they wouldn't have their own SDC pools (even looking at just the Main Body).

By that same token, if you take a gun, and you shoot another character in the heart for [HP+SDC+PE+1] damage, they're dead, but they're not vaporized. If they were, there would never be ANY dead bodies in the game world.
Because there ARE dead bodies in the game world (just as their are boards, lumber, doors, and so forth), we can know for a fact that reducing the SDC of a person or object doesn't necessarily destroy it entirely.
Just like that SDC car that gets blown in half by a Mega-Damage blast in that combat example, things and people aren't typically disintegrated: there are chunks or pieces left that have their own SDC pool, and that can be used for cover (or other purposes).

eliakon wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually the 'per [length/volume]' vs 'total' discussion is pretty valid..

right now the only way to actually cut down a tree during combat is to deplete its SDC. which presumably you are doing too out of combat, you can just ignore the need to make a ton of rolls and eyeball it since there are fewer time constraints.

so if the SDC is total, that cut tree ought to be useless for anything else defensive (pallisades, walls, etc) because the SDC is gone.

but if the listed sdc is by say, every 10ft, you are only depleting the sdc of that one section of tree, and the rest of the wood is uneffected. making the fact you can cut down a 200 sdc tree, plane it into planks, and still build 200 sdc worth of wood walls from it.

So if sdc is the amount of damage needed to break something some how, why would a peace of something once broken have no resistance to being broken again? (not like if I break a broom in half it takes no force/damage to break the haves of it again. Just typically in most combat there is no reason to track force to break it again.)

10' sections to break pools would have the same issue if it worked the way you are suggesting. I take a tree and cut it in to 5' sections each would have the same issue. I use the tree to make chairs that are smaller than 10 sections.

The issue is not the size of what you are breaking but a lack of understanding of mechanics.

we DO understand the mechanics
The mechanics are NOT the same as real world physics though.
Things in the game have an SDC pool.
Damage to them comes out of said pool.
If the pool is depleted the thing has no SDC and is 'destroyed'
things that have no SDC have no value as cover... as they do not reduce the attack by anything as they have no SDC to stop the attack WITH.

The problem is that the mechanics are, as in many cases, wonky due to the need to have something that is playable. As such the rules for the total SDC of an object do not always match the rules for locations.
This is best shown by looking at a person... you do not have to reduce their total SDC to zero to cut off their arm...
...the question of course is if the damage to the arm ALSO damages the 'main pool'

You are making assumption that the rules work ilogically. As was pointed out if you cut a tree in half you would have two new objects with there own sdc. We know things that are made with parts of trees have sdc because we have stats of a few things made if wood found in PB games.(now while rules do not reflect real world physics they are not as illogical as you present them in this case.)

So it does appear the issue is not the rules but a lack of understanding of the rules.

Blue_Lion wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually the 'per [length/volume]' vs 'total' discussion is pretty valid..

right now the only way to actually cut down a tree during combat is to deplete its SDC. which presumably you are doing too out of combat, you can just ignore the need to make a ton of rolls and eyeball it since there are fewer time constraints.

so if the SDC is total, that cut tree ought to be useless for anything else defensive (pallisades, walls, etc) because the SDC is gone.

but if the listed sdc is by say, every 10ft, you are only depleting the sdc of that one section of tree, and the rest of the wood is uneffected. making the fact you can cut down a 200 sdc tree, plane it into planks, and still build 200 sdc worth of wood walls from it.

So if sdc is the amount of damage needed to break something some how, why would a peace of something once broken have no resistance to being broken again? (not like if I break a broom in half it takes no force/damage to break the haves of it again. Just typically in most combat there is no reason to track force to break it again.)

10' sections to break pools would have the same issue if it worked the way you are suggesting. I take a tree and cut it in to 5' sections each would have the same issue. I use the tree to make chairs that are smaller than 10 sections.

The issue is not the size of what you are breaking but a lack of understanding of mechanics.

we DO understand the mechanics
The mechanics are NOT the same as real world physics though.
Things in the game have an SDC pool.
Damage to them comes out of said pool.
If the pool is depleted the thing has no SDC and is 'destroyed'
things that have no SDC have no value as cover... as they do not reduce the attack by anything as they have no SDC to stop the attack WITH.

The problem is that the mechanics are, as in many cases, wonky due to the need to have something that is playable. As such the rules for the total SDC of an object do not always match the rules for locations.
This is best shown by looking at a person... you do not have to reduce their total SDC to zero to cut off their arm...
...the question of course is if the damage to the arm ALSO damages the 'main pool'

You are making assumption that the rules work ilogically. As was pointed out if you cut a tree in half you would have two new objects with there own sdc. We know things that are made with parts of trees have sdc because we have stats of a few things made if wood found in PB games.(now while rules do not reflect real world physics they are not as illogical as you present them in this case.)

So it does appear the issue is not the rules but a lack of understanding of the rules.

Again I DO understand the rules
The rules are not logical though.
I am sorry but your stance that you can deplete and objects SDC and get the full SDC value doesn't work.
Put another way... a tree with a maximum of 600 SDC is perfectly able to make several THOUSAND SDC worth of wood. However if you use a MD weapon on the SDC tree, according to the rules the tree is blown to smithereens (They make this point over and over again like how the MD gun in the demo vaporizes the deer, or blows up the car, and the like)... leaving it impossible, under the rules, to both cut down a tree AND make wood objects.
So we are left with "the rules are mutually contradictory on this issue". It is not that I do not understand the rules. It is that the rules as written are abstractions that break down for virtually anything beyond small unit combat... almost as if the entire game was built around the idea of adventurers and their exploits and that things like cutting down trees would need to be handwaved.

THAT is my point. That the rules do not work with out a GM to make handwaves and house rules.

The rules state when an object sdc is depleted it is broken. That does not mean every thing is atomized when it hits 0 sdc.

So if you take a tree break it in two by depleting the SDC then you now have 2 new objects with their own SDC. If yo cut a tree down by depleting its sdc you would still need to deplete the sdc of the new objects made from the fallen tree(log) to break it again. You are mistaking the basic concept as the parts broken off things would be new objects with their own XDC, the fact the original object was broken is irreverent to parts being new objects and needing to deplete the XDC again to break it a second time.

So again the illogical part is based in your failure to understand the rules. (Unless you have a quote that says if you break something om two the two new objects do not have SDC.)

Wow, lots of back and forth. And IMHO you are all correct (from your respective points of view).

What the rules are lacking is: If something has been reduced to 0 XDC and is broken, destroyed, non-useable, ect... and yet what is remaining is large enough for cover (large tree cut down or deathhead transport shot down), what amount of XDC would that cover provide? And how many times can you damage said cover breaking it into smaller and smaller pieces, yet each piece is still large enough to be used for cover, what amount of XDC cover would each smaller and smaller piece provide. Yes, this can effectively multiply the total XDC by some huge amount in the context.

That seems like it is always going to have to have some level of GM handwavium applied.

42dragon wrote:That seems like it is always going to have to have some level of GM handwavium applied.

Like the rest of the game, yes.