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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:EDIT: Much like Mack, I couldn't actually find a reference in Arzno to it etiher, which could mean only one school known to teach it, even more rare.

It isnt in the Arzno book. I dont remember where i saw it, but its in another book where it doesn't make much sense, in a passing line, like "they opened a school in Arzno".

Ill look for it, halfheartedly.

However, in response to your bolded...

if thats how you determine rare, then LLW magic should be just as rare, as there is a single school that teaches it - in Dweomer, a city to which you have to be specifically invited to even find.

Sure, but I didn't say it's rare because there is only one school teaching it in the books, I said it's rare because the book says it's rare, and that you pointing out there is a school that teaches it is compatible with the statement that combat magic is rare. I didn't say that it's rare BECAUSE it has only one school, just that having a school doesn't make it not-rare when the book says it's rare.

Also there are a lot more magic guilds that teach spells to members than just Dweomer, Kingsdale, Juarez, Merc town, Arzno, Lazlo, Tolkeen if you play prior/during SoT, and that's without even trying. but that's beside the point. You can have a school of magic that's relatively common with no schools at all if there are enough practioners and apprenticeship slots available. So my point is you can't go off the number of schools or lack of them to determine how common something is. Apprentiseships can teach anything without schools. so really the only thing that matters for how common or not how any given school of magic is is how rare the book says they are.

Ideally it has a good fluff reason for it. Combat Magic had a bad fluff reason, but the reason listed is irrelvent next to the mechanical effect of rarity.

Frankly, it'd have been better off if it simply said "This school of magic is rare and teachers are hard to find" and then just stopped, not giving any reason why. And if it had done that, you'd have probablly accepted it at face value. the fact that it gave a bad reason rather than no reason, doesn't mean it's now common and easy to find.

I would like to point out that the spells are not "rare"
They are "Not used"
There is a HUGE difference.
Even people like Magi who *know* the spells are fluffed as not *using* them.
That goes beyond "this is rare because of Fiat" and flat out into "You can not use this because I say my Mary Sue's are the only ones allowed to use it and you are Role Playing Wrong if you dare to try"

I'm not saying the fluff is well written, or that i'm going as far as to say you can't use it. I'm saying it says most mages can't or won't. that doesn't effect what individual PC's choose to do.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

eliakon wrote:Just that we are told in the BoM that all mages (yes, including techno-wizards!) automatically hate technology and refuse to use it put to the point where they would all rather just die in every fight in the game than use guns and armor... that mages simply refuse to use these spells because they are 'crude' and 'primitive'.
Basically the absolute, flat out, worst form of writing possible where you TELL other people "No, this is how you WILL play your character because this narrow view is the One True Way that you must play or you are Doing It Wrong"

This is one THE biggest issues i have with Palladium (and particularly Kevin's) writing.

The "ALL of the people who are this class are THIS WAY and if you do ANYTHING ELSE, you're doing it WRONG." nonsense.

The magic users gripe is a big one but there are plenty of other places where the same thinking is out there in print.

The whole "magic users use magic because they think it is superior to technology, period." thing in BoM (and hinted at/stated in other places too) is just... unbearably stupid writing.

You're basically saying that all magic users are delusional, insane, and so stupid they cant realize when using a technological device might be better than using magic.

Its just dumb.

Much like the "all mages wear dresses", "all TWs are stupid Aviator-obsessed idiots", etc.

It's not 'dumb' it's an aspect of human nature. What you're seeing as 'dumb' is fluff... written to combat mini-maxers.

It's ignored by a large number of players for exactly that reason.
In Palladium the combat system is rather simplistic. The Weapon Preferences are -very- simplistic. If you take the WP, you're trained in the weapon and you get +'s in combat at set intervals.

Thing is... A super special forces commando navy seal killer.....

Gets 100% the same bonuses from WP Laser rifle as...... a simple farm boy protecting his cows from predators.

They advance at the same rate. They get the same bonus, at the same time, and via the -rules- both the Super Special Forces commando.... and the Farm boy.... shoot 100% the same and one is not better than the other.

So.... A commando taking WP Laser rifle, is no 'better' than a Mage taking WP Laser rifle.

With out that fluff in there that says that they disdain the usage of technology and prefer to do things magically, you get a bunch of people (And they're ALL OVER THIS FORUM) That take magic classes. To get the spells. And then give them that same exact WP Laser rifle... and play their ---mages--- as COMMANDOS.... that -also- have spells. Their justification is "My Mage has the exact same WP Laser rifle as the commando and I use the rifle just as well. So I will play my mage How ever I want. Fluff be damned.

So now they 'play' a commando, + Magic.

So that's the 'why it's written into the fluff' to try and prevent that sort of thing.

As for it being just stupid.... not thematically.

Look at Star Wars. The Jedi running into battle with laser tanks and 1000s of robots shooting at them.... with a sword. Ok it's a light saber but they didn't just go "FRAK THIS!" and pick up a heavy repeating blaster and mow down 1000s of droids with the equivalent of a laser mini gun.

They ran into battle with swords. They closed to Melee range and hacked at people in a time of space ships and long range weaponry. is it the 'smartest' thing in the world? No but it's thematic.
"Your father's lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster. An elegant weapon... for a more civilized age."

Could the jedi be absolutely lethal if they picked up heavy blasters and use the force to guide their shots? Yeah. For sure.
Do they -ocassionally- use blasters? Sure. Some even wear them on their legs. (Luke, Corran, Kyle), but their go to weapon, their default weapon is always the light saber.

The Jedi spent their lives training to BE Jedi. To use the force (magic/psionics) and to train with the light saber. So while they "Can" (and do when absolutely nessiary) Use a blaster, they don't like it. They see blasters much like Rifts Mages see tech weapons. Crude, uncooth, and lacking style or talent.

Any farm boy can be taught how to shoot a gun. But only the SPECIAL person can learn magic.

More over if you read the fluff, they're -called to it- Much like a jedi has the force. Then they train for years or lifetimes to use the Force. So..... while picking up a gun and just shooting someone in the head might be 'smarter' or 'easier' the Jedi draws his light saber and turns it on and wades into melee range, using an archaic weapon to slice, hack and slash at his or her foes.

Because that's how they're trained. That's what they do. That's how they face their enemies, because they feel it's better and more elegant.

In Rifts, mages are the same way. They're special (Can channel their PPE) they're called to magic. Then they spend years/decades/lifetimes learning how to use it. So when they see as problem, they use what -they- feel is surperior. It's not that they're too stupid to ever pick up a rifle. It's that when given the option between A MDC Fireball and a MDC Rifle, the mage feels more at home using the fireball. They prefer the Fireball. Given the option they're going to use the Fireball because they think it's better. They've trained with it, spent their life molding the mystical energies of the universe, calling them and forcing them to their own will, to manifest as an aspect of their want, skill and need. To force the magic and universe to do his or her bidding and blast the frak out of their enemies.

Now some say "Well it's more economic to use the laser rifle right up till you can't, play your mage like a commando, and then use magic when you have no other option"

They're looking past the fluff and mini-mazing their characters.

Some say it's stupid and unrealistic. It may not be 'smart' if you're living 100% logically.

But people don't. We're not robots.

To put it into easy real world terms and what have you.... I'm a 'gun guy'. Many of you know that. You would be unsurprised to know there's a manufacturer that I prefer over others. Which one doesn't matter. I like how they make their guns. I like the feel in the hand. I trust their guns, and I carry and use their guns above others. That's "My brand" of firearm.

Now.... I have more of that manufacturer's firearms than others.

But I do have others.

and you know. Both are guns. Both shoot bullets and put bullets down range. They shoot 'the same' bullets. A Springfield XDM .40 shoots the same bullet as my Sig Sauer Legion P226, in .40. But I prefer one over the other. One may be cheeper. May be easier to clean. May be lighter. May be easier to acquire than the other, but if I like the other and it feels better to me. I'm going to use it. Even if it's more expensive. Even if it's harder to clean. Even if it's heavier. Because I like it.

Now.... most guys are like this. They don't do a numerical break down to see which gun is the absolute cheepest and easiest to clean, etc, and then base their choice on that. Those things factor in, surely but once someone finds a gun they like, they pay the extra money, they spend the extra time cleaning it. They carry a few oz more weight.

The gun shoots the same bullets but they carry it and use it because they prefer it and like it.

That's the mage with his fireball over a laser rifle.

Now this ins't just for guns.

I'm sure you've all seen people that were REALLY Dedicated to their car brand. the "Ford Vs Chevy" Thing.. both taking pot shots at the other. Debating the merits of THEIR car brand over someone ELSES car brand and how they'd rather walk or take the bus than drive that OTHER type of car.

Both are cars. Both get you to where you're going but the feud is long running (For some people) and quite dramatic. Some prefer their brand, even if it's illogical and use it. if they absolutely positivly HAVE to drive the other brand. They will. But they don't like it.

Just like a Rifts Mage will use a rifle if they must. They just hate doing it and feel it's below them.

If you spend years/decades/your entire life, learning to control and mold the very energies of the universe. Hour after hour, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, to get that down, to 'make it' to your lvl 1 in your magic OOC....

You don't just go "ok I did the math on PPE expendature, vs credits, and in this instance using a MD Pistol will be more ecomical for my char untill it reaches this threshhold"

Your mage goes "I got a fireball I LIKE my Fireball I'mma frigging FIREBALL that guy right in the face!!!"

because... you chose to play a --mage--.

That is the 'logic' behind why Mages behave as they do. It may be 'illogical' but so is Jedi using light sabers. But it's not totally STUPID. It's just how humans are.


Some people.... forget that when they're mini-maxing their characters.

Sort of like the ... Rogue scholar that spends all his secondary skills on physicals to buff up his combat stats and suddenly you have a rogue scholar with 8 physcials stacked and no reason to justify it other than "Oh... it ups my combat stats so... you know.. he's the Rock... that's also a scientist.. hey. It could happen!! you don't know his life! When in reality they're just looking at the NUMBERS.

Same thing happens with the Laser rifle, commando (That just so happens to have a bunch of spells)

except that to a large extent, people do make decisions for practical reasons, if they need to. there are some people who swear by a certain car brand, but i meet a heck of a lot more people who buy and use whatever is practical. you might hear people *say* they'd rather walk than drive another car, but i bet you don't find a lot of them turning down a ride from someone in the other brand if their car breaks down on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere so that they can walk instead.

on rifts earth, running out of PPE and not being able to do magic things is a serious issue. frankly, i would expect most magicians view using a laser rifle as clumsy and inelegant... but they probably also view lobbing a fireball at something as being clumsy and inelegant, too. putting holes in things is simply not remotely close to being the most effective thing a mage can do. and if they had unlimited PPE, sure they'd be using magic to do that in a pinch either way... but no way in hell are my mages going to ever give up the ability to become immune to energy weapons or turn invisible so that they can do something so minor, unless it's an absolutely desperate situation.

i'm certainly going to take the approach of using magic to solve my problems, even combat-related ones... but i'm going to do that by using magic for what it's good at. i'll use a carpet of adhesion to trap them, or mind control them into removing their armour, or make an ally immune to their lasers, and then, once the problem has been solved with magic, well, why would i waste magic on a fireball and risk getting stuck later on with no PPE to mystic portal to the inside of that armoured vehicle, or place a wall to seal off an escape route, or mind control a CS officer into not calling in my position? i don't use magic to summon a demon to spoon-feed me oatmeal in the morning, or to figure out what colour an object is, or to go up a flight of stairs, because those aren't actually problems (i might use magic to keep myself from starving, see an object hundreds of miles away, or build a flight of stairs in a place i'm going to regularly use, because those are problems), and neither are 3 bandits trapped in a magic net (at least, not any more).

i have a laser rifle for the same reason i own a backpack; some tasks are simply not worth wasting magic on unless you're in a situation where you aren't going to need that magic for something else later. i could probably use magic to carry my stuff, but i don't absolutely hate technology, and having my magic available for the most important things is more important than using my magic for trivial things when i'm out adventuring. i'm going to need to be in a place where i feel awfully safe before i feel comfortable using magic for such little things.

Incredibly long and pointless rant about how mages are idiots in spoiler for those who are curious.
Since Pepsi seems to feel that for some reason Mages should be monitored for min-maxing and carefully prevented from selecting the best tool out of their tool box.
I mean heaven forbid that if you start with 3 level two spells that you can pick the GOOD ones.
Nope. Only PJs deadboys get to do that with their tech. Which for some reason he has no problem with people getting the best tool possible. Heck he even encourages power creep as being in keeping with the logic.
Its just if mages try to get good tools that he flips out.

After all I am positive that not a single one of his soldiers has ever tested a weapon.
Or read a magazine where they ranked weapons
Or discussed weapons with other aficionados where they talk about which ones they would use in which situations
Or done a side by side test of a weapon
Nope!
They grab the first gun they see in the basic book and use that for the rest of their life.

This is especially hilarious when he is trying to compare two .40 bullets and say "this is just identical to what a mage would be doing when picking spells, so its just nit picking"
when it is more like "Hmmm, do I want this .22 rifle, or that Nato 7.62 rifle or maybe that .50cal rifle....
These spells are not "just variations on the same .40" they are so widely different that they are not even remotely the same caliber..
But hey... lets compare actual level 8 invocation spells of ~30 PPE cost mmm? I mean their all .40cal pistols right
EM Attack (30 PPE)
1000' +300'/lv OR 120' with 15'radiu
5d6 or EMP

Handful of Lighting (30 PPE)
400' +10/level
Three bolts at 6d6+2 per level
Each bolt can be thrown per APM, held max of 1 round/level

Cosmic Ray (35 PPE)
30' per level
3d6+3 direct to HP, ignores MDC armor
2d6+2 MD to MD Creatures
5d6+5 to supernatural beings
save at-1 for half damage

Shockwave (35 PPE)
10'/level radius around caster
1d4/level + knockdown
Save: Special, roll percentile

Yep, totally nitpicking to try and pick one over the other

But then again I don't think he has ever played a mage, or done anything with them other than line them up as idiot fodder for his deadboys to mow down.

eliakon wrote:

Spoiler:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

eliakon wrote:Just that we are told in the BoM that all mages (yes, including techno-wizards!) automatically hate technology and refuse to use it put to the point where they would all rather just die in every fight in the game than use guns and armor... that mages simply refuse to use these spells because they are 'crude' and 'primitive'.
Basically the absolute, flat out, worst form of writing possible where you TELL other people "No, this is how you WILL play your character because this narrow view is the One True Way that you must play or you are Doing It Wrong"

This is one THE biggest issues i have with Palladium (and particularly Kevin's) writing.

The "ALL of the people who are this class are THIS WAY and if you do ANYTHING ELSE, you're doing it WRONG." nonsense.

The magic users gripe is a big one but there are plenty of other places where the same thinking is out there in print.

The whole "magic users use magic because they think it is superior to technology, period." thing in BoM (and hinted at/stated in other places too) is just... unbearably stupid writing.

You're basically saying that all magic users are delusional, insane, and so stupid they cant realize when using a technological device might be better than using magic.

Its just dumb.

Much like the "all mages wear dresses", "all TWs are stupid Aviator-obsessed idiots", etc.

It's not 'dumb' it's an aspect of human nature. What you're seeing as 'dumb' is fluff... written to combat mini-maxers.

It's ignored by a large number of players for exactly that reason.
In Palladium the combat system is rather simplistic. The Weapon Preferences are -very- simplistic. If you take the WP, you're trained in the weapon and you get +'s in combat at set intervals.

Thing is... A super special forces commando navy seal killer.....

Gets 100% the same bonuses from WP Laser rifle as...... a simple farm boy protecting his cows from predators.

They advance at the same rate. They get the same bonus, at the same time, and via the -rules- both the Super Special Forces commando.... and the Farm boy.... shoot 100% the same and one is not better than the other.

So.... A commando taking WP Laser rifle, is no 'better' than a Mage taking WP Laser rifle.

With out that fluff in there that says that they disdain the usage of technology and prefer to do things magically, you get a bunch of people (And they're ALL OVER THIS FORUM) That take magic classes. To get the spells. And then give them that same exact WP Laser rifle... and play their ---mages--- as COMMANDOS.... that -also- have spells. Their justification is "My Mage has the exact same WP Laser rifle as the commando and I use the rifle just as well. So I will play my mage How ever I want. Fluff be damned.

So now they 'play' a commando, + Magic.

So that's the 'why it's written into the fluff' to try and prevent that sort of thing.

As for it being just stupid.... not thematically.

Look at Star Wars. The Jedi running into battle with laser tanks and 1000s of robots shooting at them.... with a sword. Ok it's a light saber but they didn't just go "FRAK THIS!" and pick up a heavy repeating blaster and mow down 1000s of droids with the equivalent of a laser mini gun.

They ran into battle with swords. They closed to Melee range and hacked at people in a time of space ships and long range weaponry. is it the 'smartest' thing in the world? No but it's thematic.
"Your father's lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster. An elegant weapon... for a more civilized age."

Could the jedi be absolutely lethal if they picked up heavy blasters and use the force to guide their shots? Yeah. For sure.
Do they -ocassionally- use blasters? Sure. Some even wear them on their legs. (Luke, Corran, Kyle), but their go to weapon, their default weapon is always the light saber.

The Jedi spent their lives training to BE Jedi. To use the force (magic/psionics) and to train with the light saber. So while they "Can" (and do when absolutely nessiary) Use a blaster, they don't like it. They see blasters much like Rifts Mages see tech weapons. Crude, uncooth, and lacking style or talent.

Any farm boy can be taught how to shoot a gun. But only the SPECIAL person can learn magic.

More over if you read the fluff, they're -called to it- Much like a jedi has the force. Then they train for years or lifetimes to use the Force. So..... while picking up a gun and just shooting someone in the head might be 'smarter' or 'easier' the Jedi draws his light saber and turns it on and wades into melee range, using an archaic weapon to slice, hack and slash at his or her foes.

Because that's how they're trained. That's what they do. That's how they face their enemies, because they feel it's better and more elegant.

In Rifts, mages are the same way. They're special (Can channel their PPE) they're called to magic. Then they spend years/decades/lifetimes learning how to use it. So when they see as problem, they use what -they- feel is surperior. It's not that they're too stupid to ever pick up a rifle. It's that when given the option between A MDC Fireball and a MDC Rifle, the mage feels more at home using the fireball. They prefer the Fireball. Given the option they're going to use the Fireball because they think it's better. They've trained with it, spent their life molding the mystical energies of the universe, calling them and forcing them to their own will, to manifest as an aspect of their want, skill and need. To force the magic and universe to do his or her bidding and blast the frak out of their enemies.

Now some say "Well it's more economic to use the laser rifle right up till you can't, play your mage like a commando, and then use magic when you have no other option"

They're looking past the fluff and mini-mazing their characters.

Some say it's stupid and unrealistic. It may not be 'smart' if you're living 100% logically.

But people don't. We're not robots.

To put it into easy real world terms and what have you.... I'm a 'gun guy'. Many of you know that. You would be unsurprised to know there's a manufacturer that I prefer over others. Which one doesn't matter. I like how they make their guns. I like the feel in the hand. I trust their guns, and I carry and use their guns above others. That's "My brand" of firearm.

Now.... I have more of that manufacturer's firearms than others.

But I do have others.

and you know. Both are guns. Both shoot bullets and put bullets down range. They shoot 'the same' bullets. A Springfield XDM .40 shoots the same bullet as my Sig Sauer Legion P226, in .40. But I prefer one over the other. One may be cheeper. May be easier to clean. May be lighter. May be easier to acquire than the other, but if I like the other and it feels better to me. I'm going to use it. Even if it's more expensive. Even if it's harder to clean. Even if it's heavier. Because I like it.

Now.... most guys are like this. They don't do a numerical break down to see which gun is the absolute cheepest and easiest to clean, etc, and then base their choice on that. Those things factor in, surely but once someone finds a gun they like, they pay the extra money, they spend the extra time cleaning it. They carry a few oz more weight.

The gun shoots the same bullets but they carry it and use it because they prefer it and like it.

That's the mage with his fireball over a laser rifle.

Now this ins't just for guns.

I'm sure you've all seen people that were REALLY Dedicated to their car brand. the "Ford Vs Chevy" Thing.. both taking pot shots at the other. Debating the merits of THEIR car brand over someone ELSES car brand and how they'd rather walk or take the bus than drive that OTHER type of car.

Both are cars. Both get you to where you're going but the feud is long running (For some people) and quite dramatic. Some prefer their brand, even if it's illogical and use it. if they absolutely positivly HAVE to drive the other brand. They will. But they don't like it.

Just like a Rifts Mage will use a rifle if they must. They just hate doing it and feel it's below them.

If you spend years/decades/your entire life, learning to control and mold the very energies of the universe. Hour after hour, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, to get that down, to 'make it' to your lvl 1 in your magic OOC....

You don't just go "ok I did the math on PPE expendature, vs credits, and in this instance using a MD Pistol will be more ecomical for my char untill it reaches this threshhold"

Your mage goes "I got a fireball I LIKE my Fireball I'mma frigging FIREBALL that guy right in the face!!!"

because... you chose to play a --mage--.

That is the 'logic' behind why Mages behave as they do. It may be 'illogical' but so is Jedi using light sabers. But it's not totally STUPID. It's just how humans are.


Some people.... forget that when they're mini-maxing their characters.

Sort of like the ... Rogue scholar that spends all his secondary skills on physicals to buff up his combat stats and suddenly you have a rogue scholar with 8 physcials stacked and no reason to justify it other than "Oh... it ups my combat stats so... you know.. he's the Rock... that's also a scientist.. hey. It could happen!! you don't know his life! When in reality they're just looking at the NUMBERS.

Same thing happens with the Laser rifle, commando (That just so happens to have a bunch of spells)

Incredibly long and pointless rant about how mages are idiots in spoiler for those who are curious.

Lol Not pointless. Next time I'll use smaller words.

eliakon wrote:
Since Pepsi seems to feel that for some reason Mages should be monitored for min-maxing

Not just mages. I monitor all my players for such behavior. Mages or tech based. I smack down the people that instantly reach for SAI and II for their weapons too.

eliakon wrote: and carefully prevented from selecting the best tool out of their tool box.

Not 'prevented from selecting the best tool' but "Pointing out they have a favorite tool that they've dedciated their life to mastering, and have spent years/decades/life time mastering. So they're probably going to use it.

eliakon wrote: I mean heaven forbid that if you start with 3 level two spells that you can pick the GOOD ones.

Not sure where you saw that at all. Infact. I didn't mention spell selection at all. I pointed out that "Magic users default to Magic" So.... wow.

eliakon wrote: Nope. Only PJs deadboys get to do that with their tech.

Didn't mention tech guys at all, but as pointed out above. I prevent stupid minimaxing on the tech side as well. Mini-maxing and twinking of all kinds is looked down upon in our games.

eliakon wrote: Which for some reason he has no problem with people getting the best tool possible.

Lol I don't generally allow the CS Grunts to also be mages if that's what you mean.

eliakon wrote: Heck he even encourages power creep as being in keeping with the logic.

Can you show me where that was implied in my post? Because, you just made that up.

eliakon wrote: Its just if mages try to get good tools that he flips out.

Again. That's just a figment of your imagination. Over active I'd say as nothing what so ever even points to that. And it's simply not true. I speak out about Twinks of all flavors. The above post was explaining to the Commando Mages, why that's not in sync with the Palladium setting.

eliakon wrote: After all I am positive that not a single one of his soldiers has ever tested a weapon.

You'd actually be wrong. I've played in more than one campaign where the group worked for NG... testing weapons. lol

eliakon wrote: Or read a magazine where they ranked weapons

Well it's a post apoc setting so not too many magazine subscriptions, but see above. I've played in games where the char's jobs were to test and evaluate weapons (And acquire new weapons to be reverse engineered), but my chars do have weapon loyalty in game. Usually to NG. As.... I live there IRL, and like it in game.

eliakon wrote:
Or discussed weapons with other aficionados where they talk about which ones they would use in which situations

Yep. It was some of my char's jobs to do so.

eliakon wrote: Or done a side by side test of a weapon

Again, yes. Have done so.

eliakon wrote:
Nope!

A whole lot of assumptions you're just straight up wrong about. Sorry.

eliakon wrote:
They grab the first gun they see in the basic book and use that for the rest of their life.

Nope. Nor do I say mages have to do that. You should work on your reading comprehension. I said "Mages like magic, they've spent a life time getting it to work, they prefer it, and if you spend decades or your entire life learning how to use one thing. You don't just pick your nose and choose another thing due to a number on a page in a book.

eliakon wrote:
This is especially hilarious when he is trying to compare two .40 bullets and say "this is just identical to what a mage would be doing when picking spells, so its just nit picking"

Again. Reading comprehension would be your friend, if you had it. It wasn't about picking spells at all. lol It was pointing out that some people have preferences, (Like.. magic over guns) And that they stick with their preferences, even if it seems to defy logic.

Fire balls and Laser pistols both put Mega damage down range, but Mages prefer the fireballs, even if they have a laser pistol

I'm so very sorry you can't grasp the concept.

eliakon wrote:
when it is more like "Hmmm, do I want this .22 rifle, or that Nato 7.62 rifle or maybe that .50cal rifle....
These spells are not "just variations on the same .40" they are so widely different that they are not even remotely the same caliber..

And again, if you actually read, you wouldn't be off on a tangent such as this. lol I was not talking about spell selection at all, but ingrained preferences that define people's choices. It wasnt "This spell is the only spell I'll ever use" Nothing in there even hinted at that. You made that up, then are laughing about how stupid it is.

YOU made it up.

You're laughing at yourself.

eliakon wrote:
But hey... lets compare actual level 8 invocation spells of ~30 PPE cost mmm? I mean their all .40cal pistols right
EM Attack (30 PPE)
1000' +300'/lv OR 120' with 15'radiu
5d6 or EMP

Handful of Lighting (30 PPE)
400' +10/level
Three bolts at 6d6+2 per level
Each bolt can be thrown per APM, held max of 1 round/level

Cosmic Ray (35 PPE)
30' per level
3d6+3 direct to HP, ignores MDC armor
2d6+2 MD to MD Creatures
5d6+5 to supernatural beings
save at-1 for half damage

Shockwave (35 PPE)
10'/level radius around caster
1d4/level + knockdown
Save: Special, roll percentile

Yep, totally nitpicking to try and pick one over the other

And... again. Not what was being said. Nice try moving the goal posts into something you could mock.... that.. you 100% made up yourself.

eliakon wrote:

But then again I don't think he has ever played a mage, or done anything with them other than line them up as idiot fodder for his deadboys to mow down.

Well you'd be wrong, but reading the multiple fabrications above, it's pretty clear that thinking is not your forte. You have straight up created fictional arguments out of whole cloth, then laughed about them and mocked the fiction that you created. Well when it's -you- creating the stupidity it's pretty easy to laugh about it. Right?

As an aside. Do you just scream at the screen every time a Jedi turns on his lightsaber, huh? I mean they should be using heavy repeating blasters. Range. Damage. Etc. Because why would someone use a melee weapon in a setting with blasters! It's just STUPID. They're all STUPID. They should totally be using blaster rifles all the time. Gaw!

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's not 'dumb' it's an aspect of human nature. What you're seeing as 'dumb' is fluff... written to combat mini-maxers.

Trying to use nonsensical, illogical "flluff" to balance game mechanics is idiocy.

It's ignored by a large number of players for exactly that reason.

Because its stupid.

In Palladium the combat system is rather simplistic. The Weapon Preferences are -very- simplistic. If you take the WP, you're trained in the weapon and you get +'s in combat at set intervals.

Thing is... A super special forces commando navy seal killer.....

Gets 100% the same bonuses from WP Laser rifle as...... a simple farm boy protecting his cows from predators.

They advance at the same rate. They get the same bonus, at the same time, and via the -rules- both the Super Special Forces commando.... and the Farm boy.... shoot 100% the same and one is not better than the other.

So.... A commando taking WP Laser rifle, is no 'better' than a Mage taking WP Laser rifle.

With out that fluff in there that says that they disdain the usage of technology and prefer to do things magically, you get a bunch of people (And they're ALL OVER THIS FORUM) That take magic classes. To get the spells. And then give them that same exact WP Laser rifle... and play their ---mages--- as COMMANDOS.... that -also- have spells. Their justification is "My Mage has the exact same WP Laser rifle as the commando and I use the rifle just as well. So I will play my mage How ever I want. Fluff be damned.

So now they 'play' a commando, + Magic.

So that's the 'why it's written into the fluff' to try and prevent that sort of thing.

Which is **** writing and terrible game design.

Probably should give the man-at-arms class additional bonuses to combat, instead.

As for it being just stupid.... not thematically.

Look at Star Wars. The Jedi running into battle with laser tanks and 1000s of robots shooting at them.... with a sword. Ok it's a light saber but they didn't just go "FRAK THIS!" and pick up a heavy repeating blaster and mow down 1000s of droids with the equivalent of a laser mini gun.

That is... a terrible, terrible analogy.

The Jedi didn't need to, because they are basically immune to ranged attacks and dont need to take advantage of the 'benefits' of using a ranged weapon. The Lightsaber is a potent weapon, every bit the equal of a blaster (or even more potent) and its sole disadvantage (melee range) is moot because the Jedi can reliably reach melee range without being harmed.

They ran into battle with swords. They closed to Melee range and hacked at people in a time of space ships and long range weaponry. is it the 'smartest' thing in the world? No but it's thematic.
"Your father's lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster. An elegant weapon... for a more civilized age."

And also a weapon that is more potent than any blaster smaller than a tank-mounted weapon. It can literally carve through ship hulls.

Could the jedi be absolutely lethal if they picked up heavy blasters and use the force to guide their shots? Yeah. For sure.

You mean like Luke does, or the Jedi do when piloting their Starfighters?

Do they -ocassionally- use blasters? Sure. Some even wear them on their legs. (Luke, Corran, Kyle), but their go to weapon, their default weapon is always the light saber.

Because unlike Magic, the Lightsaber in the hands of a Jedi is BETTER than a blaster. The same cannot be said of magic in Rifts.

The Jedi spent their lives training to BE Jedi. To use the force (magic/psionics) and to train with the light saber. So while they "Can" (and do when absolutely nessiary) Use a blaster, they don't like it. They see blasters much like Rifts Mages see tech weapons. Crude, uncooth, and lacking style or talent.

And also, critically, no more powerful or potent (in fact, less so in almost all cases until you get to vehicle mounted weapons and even then..) than blasters.

Any farm boy can be taught how to shoot a gun. But only the SPECIAL person can learn magic.

Which doesn't make it better than a gun for certain things. If you need to kill something far away, and your choices are "move closer and maybe throw a fireball" or "use my gun to shoot the guy"... you're insane if you choose "move closer and throw a fireball, using up my valuable PPE and doing LESS DAMAGE/Less Harm than my laser rifle".

More over if you read the fluff, they're -called to it- Much like a jedi has the force. Then they train for years or lifetimes to use the Force. So..... while picking up a gun and just shooting someone in the head might be 'smarter' or 'easier' the Jedi draws his light saber and turns it on and wades into melee range, using an archaic weapon to slice, hack and slash at his or her foes.

Because that's how they're trained. That's what they do. That's how they face their enemies, because they feel it's better and more elegant.

And, again, its a terrible analogy because Jedi arent at a disadvantage when using their lightsaber. A mage using a spell that is plainly inferior to just using a gun is NOT the same thing.

In Rifts, mages are the same way. They're special (Can channel their PPE) they're called to magic. Then they spend years/decades/lifetimes learning how to use it. So when they see as problem, they use what -they- feel is surperior. It's not that they're too stupid to ever pick up a rifle. It's that when given the option between A MDC Fireball and a MDC Rifle, the mage feels more at home using the fireball. They prefer the Fireball. Given the option they're going to use the Fireball because they think it's better. They've trained with it, spent their life molding the mystical energies of the universe, calling them and forcing them to their own will, to manifest as an aspect of their want, skill and need. To force the magic and universe to do his or her bidding and blast the frak out of their enemies.

The problem with your theory here is that they have to basically be delusional. The "universe is calling them to use magic to blast the frak out of their enemies!!!!111!!" ... with a spell that will be plainly substandard at doing so. Any mage who uses the spells will see with his own eyes that the spell is less destructive than simply using a gun. Presented with that, and then still 'believing' that magic is better, is delusion.

WHats more, the fluff proves itself wrong. (as is so often the case in Rifts). Go read the Siege on Tolkeen series. The tactics described all have the mages of Tolkeen using guns (often powered by PPE, sure, but there is an argument to be made that having a gun that can be infinitely refilled with readily available PPE in an area with lots of ley lines is imminently practical) almost exclusively to actually kill and do damage, and using their magic almost entirely for effect spells, turning themselves and allies invisible, camoflauge, impervious to energy, etc.

Now some say "Well it's more economic to use the laser rifle right up till you can't, play your mage like a commando, and then use magic when you have no other option"

They're looking past the fluff and mini-mazing their characters.

No, theyre using the skills the character learns by default. Every LLW has W.P Energy Rifle or Pistol. Every. Single. One. And that "lifelong training in magic? Well, apparently thats about two years. (Mercenary Adventures).

Some say it's stupid and unrealistic. It may not be 'smart' if you're living 100% logically.

But people don't. We're not robots.

To put it into easy real world terms and what have you.... I'm a 'gun guy'. Many of you know that. You would be unsurprised to know there's a manufacturer that I prefer over others. Which one doesn't matter. I like how they make their guns. I like the feel in the hand. I trust their guns, and I carry and use their guns above others. That's "My brand" of firearm.

Now.... I have more of that manufacturer's firearms than others.

But I do have others.

and you know. Both are guns. Both shoot bullets and put bullets down range. They shoot 'the same' bullets. A Springfield XDM .40 shoots the same bullet as my Sig Sauer Legion P226, in .40. But I prefer one over the other. One may be cheeper. May be easier to clean. May be lighter. May be easier to acquire than the other, but if I like the other and it feels better to me. I'm going to use it. Even if it's more expensive. Even if it's harder to clean. Even if it's heavier. Because I like it.

Now.... most guys are like this. They don't do a numerical break down to see which gun is the absolute cheepest and easiest to clean, etc, and then base their choice on that. Those things factor in, surely but once someone finds a gun they like, they pay the extra money, they spend the extra time cleaning it. They carry a few oz more weight.

The gun shoots the same bullets but they carry it and use it because they prefer it and like it.

That's the mage with his fireball over a laser rifle.

Another terrible and completely incorrect analogy.

The difference here is that both guns shoot the same bullet; barring some minor differences in accuracy or range (depending on barrel length, rifling, etc) they will inflict the same damage. Each is equally effective as the other.

The same cannot be said for guns vs spells.

Until you get into MUCH higher level magic, that are also very expensive (you could maybe cast them 3 or 4 times before burning out your PPE), or (for a few low level spells) until you yourself are very high level.... the spells are clearly inferior in both range (and not by the trivial differences between one pistol and another - hundreds or more feet we're takling here) and destructiveness. Anyone with a functional eye and a brain in his head can see it plain as day.

Now this ins't just for guns.

I'm sure you've all seen people that were REALLY Dedicated to their car brand. the "Ford Vs Chevy" Thing.. both taking pot shots at the other. Debating the merits of THEIR car brand over someone ELSES car brand and how they'd rather walk or take the bus than drive that OTHER type of car.

Both are cars. Both get you to where you're going but the feud is long running (For some people) and quite dramatic. Some prefer their brand, even if it's illogical and use it. if they absolutely positivly HAVE to drive the other brand. They will. But they don't like it.

Just like a Rifts Mage will use a rifle if they must. They just hate doing it and feel it's below them.

If you spend years/decades/your entire life, learning to control and mold the very energies of the universe. Hour after hour, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, to get that down, to 'make it' to your lvl 1 in your magic OOC....

You don't just go "ok I did the math on PPE expendature, vs credits, and in this instance using a MD Pistol will be more ecomical for my char untill it reaches this threshhold"

Your mage goes "I got a fireball I LIKE my Fireball I'mma frigging FIREBALL that guy right in the face!!!"

because... you chose to play a --mage--.

That is the 'logic' behind why Mages behave as they do. It may be 'illogical' but so is Jedi using light sabers. But it's not totally STUPID. It's just how humans are.

Again with the Jedi analgoy. Jedi have the skills to make their disadvantage (range: melee) moot and the lightsaber is a weapon superior in almost every way to anything else man-sized. And the car analogy... again, completely misses the mark.

We're talking about a situation where the mage can literally observe, with his own eyes, that the magic spell is inferior to using the rifle to simply shoot the guy. Not "well my car gets 22mpg vs the 30mpg i might get with Brand-I-Dont-Like but it doesnt matter because i can afford the gas"...

Literally "i cant use a spell to kill that guy from here, but i CAN pick up my gun and shoot him".

Its not a debatable thing. Its not something you 'feel'. Or, if you do, you're literally delusional (clarity - the character, not the poster to whom im responding).

Like "i believe my fireball is better even though it isnt as destructive and i have to be insanely close to use it and can only cast a few of these before running out of magic to use for other potentially much more beneficial magic" delusional.

Its just bad writing, in several directions.

One, it was Kevin trying to insert Fantasy Wizards into a world with technology, without having them adapt to a world with technology. Using magic doesn't make you an idiot. You're not going to use a spell to communicate with someone across the way when you can just pick up the radio.

Two, it has always been a huge problem that man-at-arms characters dont get bonuses to combat as OCC abilities to differentiate them from other OCCs. (The few that do, actually, are heads-and-shoulders better and should have been the template).

Three, creating classes with choice/customizability (is that a word?) and then insisting that You're Doing It Wrong if you USE that customizability is just dumb.

If you dont want Mages using guns, dont let them use guns. If you allow people to customize their characters (especially to the extent that Palladium generally does, outside of a few OCCs that are pretty locked down), you have to accept that, at that point, "general rules" and "fluff" for classes become irrelevant and unenforceable, and classes are basically just game mechanics to fit your character around.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's not 'dumb' it's an aspect of human nature. What you're seeing as 'dumb' is fluff... written to combat mini-maxers.

Trying to use nonsensical, illogical "flluff" to balance game mechanics is idiocy.

"Nonsensical illogical 'fluff'.

You... do realize... we're talking about... Rifts.... where a dragon can morph into a cat and rip your leg off and kill you with it.... and there are such things as Buttertrolls and Floopers. You're acting like the setting is logical to start with and this is some how strange or out of place.

Mages prefer magic is not illogical. If magic is so stupid why are you choosing to play a mage? By this logic why are you even in the debate. Go play a commando.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

It's ignored by a large number of players for exactly that reason.

Because its stupid.

That's your assumption.

I see it more as a lot of people want to cheat and play commandos+Magic. When they should be playing one or the other.

You know.

Based on what the setting tells us.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

In Palladium the combat system is rather simplistic. The Weapon Preferences are -very- simplistic. If you take the WP, you're trained in the weapon and you get +'s in combat at set intervals.

Thing is... A super special forces commando navy seal killer.....

Gets 100% the same bonuses from WP Laser rifle as...... a simple farm boy protecting his cows from predators.

They advance at the same rate. They get the same bonus, at the same time, and via the -rules- both the Super Special Forces commando.... and the Farm boy.... shoot 100% the same and one is not better than the other.

So.... A commando taking WP Laser rifle, is no 'better' than a Mage taking WP Laser rifle.

With out that fluff in there that says that they disdain the usage of technology and prefer to do things magically, you get a bunch of people (And they're ALL OVER THIS FORUM) That take magic classes. To get the spells. And then give them that same exact WP Laser rifle... and play their ---mages--- as COMMANDOS.... that -also- have spells. Their justification is "My Mage has the exact same WP Laser rifle as the commando and I use the rifle just as well. So I will play my mage How ever I want. Fluff be damned.

So now they 'play' a commando, + Magic.

So that's the 'why it's written into the fluff' to try and prevent that sort of thing.

Which is **** writing and terrible game design.

While the mechanics are simplistic, you're complaining, quite hard, that you're supposed to play a mage, as a mage. Instead of being able to play a mage as a commando+Spells. So you can claim it's bad game design but look at what you're complaining about.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Probably should give the man-at-arms class additional bonuses to combat, instead.

Or. If you want to play a mage. Play the mage.
If you want to play a commando. Play a commando.

You know instead of changing the entire ruleset.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

As for it being just stupid.... not thematically.

Look at Star Wars. The Jedi running into battle with laser tanks and 1000s of robots shooting at them.... with a sword. Ok it's a light saber but they didn't just go "FRAK THIS!" and pick up a heavy repeating blaster and mow down 1000s of droids with the equivalent of a laser mini gun.

That is... a terrible, terrible analogy.

No it's very apt. Jedi, like the mages in Palladium choose to use mystical powers instead of ranged weaponry in a time of ranged weaponry when mystical powers seem out classed and 'silly' or 'stupid'.

You just don't like it because it proves my point and utterly destroys yours.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

The Jedi didn't need to, because they are basically immune to ranged attacks and dont need to take advantage of the 'benefits' of using a ranged weapon.

But that's just not the case. Jedi have a defense against some range attacks but it's not perfect. Nor is it an immunity. In RPG terms they have to spend actions parrying and dodging and sometimes that roll fails.

You see this in the prequals when the Jedi are in the arena and the droid army opens up on them. Yes, many blaster bolts were being deflected but many Jedi were flat out getting blown away too.

They essentially brought swords to a gun fight.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

The Lightsaber is a potent weapon, every bit the equal of a blaster (or even more potent) and its sole disadvantage (melee range) is moot because the Jedi can reliably reach melee range without being harmed.

That's silly on the face of it. The Jedi can be shot just like anyone. Or blown up. Just like any one. And often are. The heroes of the story possess a lot of plot immunity but OTHER Jedi get shot and blown up all the time.

And you're seriously trying to go the "Sole disadvantage is moot" Then you wade into battle with a vibroblade against gun users. lol Thing is you won't even use magic, who's range is crummy, but better than a METER to blast at gun users but you're saying it's 100% meaningless here? LOL

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

They ran into battle with swords. They closed to Melee range and hacked at people in a time of space ships and long range weaponry. is it the 'smartest' thing in the world? No but it's thematic.
"Your father's lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster. An elegant weapon... for a more civilized age."

And also a weapon that is more potent than any blaster smaller than a tank-mounted weapon. It can literally carve through ship hulls.

So can blasters. Remember the poor Jawas? The Empire didn't take out their crawler with light sabers because noone was looking. The entire star wars universe didn't go to blasters when light saber tech was out there. They went to blasters due to range, ease of use and better results.

The -jedi- use light sabers because of.... wait for it.... thier mystical powers.

You know... like a mage... using magic.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Could the jedi be absolutely lethal if they picked up heavy blasters and use the force to guide their shots? Yeah. For sure.

You mean like Luke does, or the Jedi do when piloting their Starfighters?

You mean like I literally point out two sentences later? lol

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Do they -ocassionally- use blasters? Sure. Some even wear them on their legs. (Luke, Corran, Kyle), but their go to weapon, their default weapon is always the light saber.

Because unlike Magic, the Lightsaber in the hands of a Jedi is BETTER than a blaster. The same cannot be said of magic in Rifts.

Debateable on both counts. It's 'Better' in certain conditions. By certain people. But not universally. For example light sabers are not better at hitting people at distance. You have to get up on them or at the very least in throwing range. There's a reason warfare has advanced to dealing death from a distance. It's a lot better than doing it face to face. Less chance of having YOUR face removed that way.

As for magic in Rifts it has it's benefits. Now normally I'm on the tech side of the divide but magic does have benefits, if you choose to use them and not ignore them. Such as.. you carry your magic with you at all times and it's pretty hard to 'disarm' you. You can walk into a town in a pair of jeans and a teeshirt and still be packing mega damage offensive capability. Tech users can't do that.

Players love to ignore the part where the setting tells you that most towns don't let you stroll through looking like the Mandalorian, in full armor with heavy weapons strapped to you. Armor isn't allowed in most cities, and weaponry less so. But the mage can stroll in, in jeans and a teeshirt, and if things go pear shaped, slap on armor of ithan and start vaporizing people with Mega damage fireballs.

The unarmed tech guy is diving for cover and wishing he had a gun. Magic has it's place. I prefer tech myself but you're acting like it's 100% useless. It's not.

More over, and again, this needs to be stressed, if you don't like magic and it's so stupid, don't play a mage.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

The Jedi spent their lives training to BE Jedi. To use the force (magic/psionics) and to train with the light saber. So while they "Can" (and do when absolutely nessiary) Use a blaster, they don't like it. They see blasters much like Rifts Mages see tech weapons. Crude, uncooth, and lacking style or talent.

And also, critically, no more powerful or potent (in fact, less so in almost all cases until you get to vehicle mounted weapons and even then..) than blasters.

Sure, if you ignore allllll the reasons people use range weaponry instead of walking up and stabbing one another.
Right.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Any farm boy can be taught how to shoot a gun. But only the SPECIAL person can learn magic.

Which doesn't make it better than a gun for certain things.

* FOR CERTAIN THINGS.

For other things it's a lot better than a gun. if you ----Choose---- to play a mage ---- in this setting---- you're acknowledging that Mages..... use magic.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
If you need to kill something far away, and your choices are "move closer and maybe throw a fireball" or "use my gun to shoot the guy"... you're insane if you choose "move closer and throw a fireball, using up my valuable PPE and doing LESS DAMAGE/Less Harm than my laser rifle".

Yet a few lines above you indicated that getting close wasn't a big deal at all and Jedi do it and it's no worries what so ever, and that it was absurd to consider range a problem at all. It seems like you're of two minds about this.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

More over if you read the fluff, they're -called to it- Much like a jedi has the force. Then they train for years or lifetimes to use the Force. So..... while picking up a gun and just shooting someone in the head might be 'smarter' or 'easier' the Jedi draws his light saber and turns it on and wades into melee range, using an archaic weapon to slice, hack and slash at his or her foes.

Because that's how they're trained. That's what they do. That's how they face their enemies, because they feel it's better and more elegant.

And, again, its a terrible analogy because Jedi arent at a disadvantage when using their lightsaber.

But they are. A very big disadvantage. They have to run their lil butts where ever they want to go/be, to kill what ever they're trying to kill. While someone with a blaster can sit 100s of meters off killing bunches of people.

Again your statements only work if you blatantly ignore reality. Which is confusing because you then selectively bring up that reality at other points, while still trying to maintain that it means nothing in other places. You're contradicting yourself.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
A mage using a spell that is plainly inferior to just using a gun is NOT the same thing.

But it is. It is the same thing. The Jedi could just pick up a blaster instead of charging 100s of meters through blaster fire, allowing multiple attacks on their person to close range, to get right up on someone and hack at them. But they don't. The mage chooses to... close range (Though not AS close as a Jedi) to use their prefered methods.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

In Rifts, mages are the same way. They're special (Can channel their PPE) they're called to magic. Then they spend years/decades/lifetimes learning how to use it. So when they see as problem, they use what -they- feel is surperior. It's not that they're too stupid to ever pick up a rifle. It's that when given the option between A MDC Fireball and a MDC Rifle, the mage feels more at home using the fireball. They prefer the Fireball. Given the option they're going to use the Fireball because they think it's better. They've trained with it, spent their life molding the mystical energies of the universe, calling them and forcing them to their own will, to manifest as an aspect of their want, skill and need. To force the magic and universe to do his or her bidding and blast the frak out of their enemies.

The problem with your theory here is that they have to basically be delusional.

Well that could be said about most adventurers in a world where if you throw a rock at a cat trying to steal the fish off your camp fire, it could turn into a 50 foot tall dragon and breathe megadamage fire all over you. or just rip your leg off and beat you to death with it. Not to mention the other 5,000,000 ways to just die.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The "universe is calling them to use magic to blast the frak out of their enemies!!!!111!!"

Pretty much. Yes. Mages think magic is surperior and they are special for being able to wield it. I'm not sure what part is tripping you up.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
... with a spell that will be plainly substandard at doing so.

They don't feel it is. Just like the Jedi don't feel that using light sabers are plainly substandard. Even with that entire 'Must run through hails of blaster fire to try and use my weapon' part.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Any mage who uses the spells will see with his own eyes that the spell is less destructive than simply using a gun.

MD Fireballs out of your fingertips are pretty destructive there Tets. And with out needing a gun to do it.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote: Presented with that, and then still 'believing' that magic is better, is delusion.

It's arrogance, it's training, it's belief. Delusion? Perhaps but again you're purposefully ignoring limitations and cherry picking (Everything) to attempt to make your arguement.

And again, if you think Mages are stupid and magic is stupid, then don't play one.

Don't play a commando and then add on spells to twink out a character

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

WHats more, the fluff proves itself wrong. (as is so often the case in Rifts).

Palladium is very skilled at contradicting itself. Hardly a Palladium only thing, by far, but Palladium excells at it.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Go read the Siege on Tolkeen series. The tactics described all have the mages of Tolkeen using guns (often powered by PPE, sure, but there is an argument to be made that having a gun that can be infinitely refilled with readily available PPE in an area with lots of ley lines is imminently practical) almost exclusively to actually kill and do damage, and using their magic almost entirely for effect spells, turning themselves and allies invisible, camoflauge, impervious to energy, etc.

Not true even in the least. The SoT has mages using magic and THEIR ALLIES Using guns and stuff. Technowizardy is still considered magic, but no. You're convusing the allies with the mages. Yes guns are used but the mages are out there casting spells. The mages just didn't make up 100% of the evil armies.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Now some say "Well it's more economic to use the laser rifle right up till you can't, play your mage like a commando, and then use magic when you have no other option"

They're looking past the fluff and mini-mazing their characters.

No, theyre using the skills the character learns by default.

This is --literally-- addressed at LENGTH in the books. The books literally, in print, in English words, tell you that mages will use magic over tech most of the time. And that they think magic is a better answer. I'm sorry you don't like the setting but you're choosing to play in it.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Every LLW has W.P Energy Rifle or Pistol. Every. Single. One. And that "lifelong training in magic? Well, apparently thats about two years. (Mercenary Adventures).

Most every, if not every single OCC in the game has a ranged WP. lol but this goes back to the stuff mentioned already, that some people see 'Rules' and use the Weapon preferencies to justify ignoring dozens of pages of text telling you what mages do and don't do, and go "Oop!!!! Dey gotz wp rifle. They're commandos!!"

I already addressed this. Directly. You don't have some sort of "Gotcha'. I literally addressed this before you could even bring it up. But you did anyway.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Some say it's stupid and unrealistic. It may not be 'smart' if you're living 100% logically.

But people don't. We're not robots.

To put it into easy real world terms and what have you.... I'm a 'gun guy'. Many of you know that. You would be unsurprised to know there's a manufacturer that I prefer over others. Which one doesn't matter. I like how they make their guns. I like the feel in the hand. I trust their guns, and I carry and use their guns above others. That's "My brand" of firearm.

Now.... I have more of that manufacturer's firearms than others.

But I do have others.

and you know. Both are guns. Both shoot bullets and put bullets down range. They shoot 'the same' bullets. A Springfield XDM .40 shoots the same bullet as my Sig Sauer Legion P226, in .40. But I prefer one over the other. One may be cheeper. May be easier to clean. May be lighter. May be easier to acquire than the other, but if I like the other and it feels better to me. I'm going to use it. Even if it's more expensive. Even if it's harder to clean. Even if it's heavier. Because I like it.

Now.... most guys are like this. They don't do a numerical break down to see which gun is the absolute cheepest and easiest to clean, etc, and then base their choice on that. Those things factor in, surely but once someone finds a gun they like, they pay the extra money, they spend the extra time cleaning it. They carry a few oz more weight.

The gun shoots the same bullets but they carry it and use it because they prefer it and like it.

That's the mage with his fireball over a laser rifle.

Another terrible and completely incorrect analogy.

Not at all. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it bad or incorrect.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The difference here is that both guns shoot the same bullet; barring some minor differences in accuracy or range (depending on barrel length, rifling, etc) they will inflict the same damage. Each is equally effective as the other.

So do laser guns and magical fireballs.... barring some minor differences in accuracy or range.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The same cannot be said for guns vs spells.

It literally can and is. Please tell me the difference between being hit for 3D6 from a laser blast or 3D6 from a fireball.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Until you get into MUCH higher level magic, that are also very expensive (you could maybe cast them 3 or 4 times before burning out your PPE), or (for a few low level spells) until you yourself are very high level.... the spells are clearly inferior in both range (and not by the trivial differences between one pistol and another - hundreds or more feet we're takling here) and destructiveness. Anyone with a functional eye and a brain in his head can see it plain as day.

Ignoring the fact that you're making my exact point for the Jedi above that you totally discounted up there.

It depends on the metric you're using. Magic, once you learn it, is 'free' this cannot be said about tech. Once you burn through your PPE you can refill it by resting. This is not so with tech. You have to pay for tech. It can be lost, stolen, broken, magic can not. You have to constantly pay to fill up your Eclips and they're expensive. Magic just comes back to you with a snooze. Weapons are heavy, you have to carry them. Magic goes with you everywhere, and barring a few exceptions, in palladium, you don't even need components. Just a few hand gestures and some words. Tech weapons aren't allowed many places. You have to leave them in your vehicle. Magic goes with you. When 5 unarmed, unarmored, commandos enter a bar and one mage can turn and start vaporizing them with MD fire balls you're going to have a hard time claiming that the guns they left locked in the car are better. You see, you're purposefully cherry picking your argument, to try and JUSTIFY a Mage not using his or her magic. If they felt that way they simply wouldn't be a mage. Why go through all the trouble?

Now personally. I much prefer technology and it's limitations. I'm a tech guy myself. But I don't just 100% ignore the benificial aspects of magic. It's very good for some things and in some ways. And if I play a mage I'm going to use it in those ways for those things.

But if I'm PLAYING A MAGE.... I'm going to play a mage.

If I'm playing a commando. I'll play a commando.

I do not twink out and make a mage a commando just for added spells on a commando character. Because I don't need to cheat to have fun in my recreational games.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Now this ins't just for guns.

I'm sure you've all seen people that were REALLY Dedicated to their car brand. the "Ford Vs Chevy" Thing.. both taking pot shots at the other. Debating the merits of THEIR car brand over someone ELSES car brand and how they'd rather walk or take the bus than drive that OTHER type of car.

Both are cars. Both get you to where you're going but the feud is long running (For some people) and quite dramatic. Some prefer their brand, even if it's illogical and use it. if they absolutely positivly HAVE to drive the other brand. They will. But they don't like it.

Just like a Rifts Mage will use a rifle if they must. They just hate doing it and feel it's below them.

If you spend years/decades/your entire life, learning to control and mold the very energies of the universe. Hour after hour, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, to get that down, to 'make it' to your lvl 1 in your magic OOC....

You don't just go "ok I did the math on PPE expendature, vs credits, and in this instance using a MD Pistol will be more ecomical for my char untill it reaches this threshhold"

Your mage goes "I got a fireball I LIKE my Fireball I'mma frigging FIREBALL that guy right in the face!!!"

because... you chose to play a --mage--.

That is the 'logic' behind why Mages behave as they do. It may be 'illogical' but so is Jedi using light sabers. But it's not totally STUPID. It's just how humans are.

Again with the Jedi analgoy.

Yes, because it's easy, we all know it, and it's very clearly demonstrated over literal decades and GENERATIONS of use.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Jedi have the skills to make their disadvantage (range: melee) moot

While I do not conceed it's moot, One could argue, so do mages. Invisability to get with in range, magical armor, etc.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
and the lightsaber is a weapon superior in almost every way to anything else man-sized. And the car analogy... again, completely misses the mark.

But it's not. You're just cherry picking in this instance (And then later pointing out it's foolishness) Range is a big big thing. You're just hand waving it away because it doesn't suit your argument at the time. It's just bizarre because when most people do that, they don't use it as a defense elsewhere in the same post.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
We're talking about a situation where the mage can literally observe, with his own eyes, that the magic spell is inferior to using the rifle to simply shoot the guy. Not "well my car gets 22mpg vs the 30mpg i might get with Brand-I-Dont-Like but it doesnt matter because i can afford the gas"...

But it's not. A fire ball hurts things just as well as a laser blast. And for free, with more style, and you're forcing the universe to your will. Instead of relying on a gun you have to pay many thousands of dollars to get, and then feed over and over and over again, costing you thousands and thousands and thousands more dollars to acheive the same effect...... as.... the pretty fireball.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Literally "i cant use a spell to kill that guy from here, but i CAN pick up my gun and shoot him".

And mages would rather walk a lil closer and use the spell. That's why they're mages, and not Mercs. A MERC would go "Well I can shoot from way back here, or walk up there and shoot. Well I'mma shoot way back here."

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Its not a debatable thing.

Not only is it debatable, it's easily so.

YOU are the one going against the setting. Not I. If you don't like it, don't play a mage. lol. (( Trust me. ____I_____ Typically don't. Because I do not like the limitations that palladium has for mages.))

Don't ---choose--- a mage out off 100s of OCCs and then complain how dumb it is. You chose it. If you don't like it. Choose something else.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Its not something you 'feel'.

The books.... all the rifts books, disagree with you. I'm sorry you seem to want to play a different game. Which is fine. There's plenty out there.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote: Or, if you do, you're literally delusional (clarity - the character, not the poster to whom im responding).

No worries. I get you. I use 'you' in the same fashion.

As for their delusions. Well. *Shrugs* That's people for ya. How many millions of people have died because they didn't like someone elses imaginary people in the sky. Pretty delusional on the face of it, isn't it?

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Like "i believe my fireball is better even though it isnt as destructive

They're plenty destructive. Just much shorter range. But have their uses and like I said, very useful if one doesn't ignore... the setting.

As a tech guy, I just seldom point out the benefits, as.. I don't want them used against me.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

and i have to be insanely close to use it and can only cast a few of these before running out of magic to use for other potentially much more beneficial magic" delusional.

So 100s of feet is insanely close but Jedi having to move to a meter or less is not...... Hurm. I see a discrepancy here.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Its just bad writing, in several directions.

This is not me trying to be a smart ass at all. If you don't like the setting, play a different game. I play palladium because (More or less) I like the settings. Goodness knows we're not purposefully picking this ruleset over 100s of different ones.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
One, it was Kevin trying to insert Fantasy Wizards into a world with technology, without having them adapt to a world with technology. Using magic doesn't make you an idiot. You're not going to use a spell to communicate with someone across the way when you can just pick up the radio.

Except that mages DO use magic to communicate across the way instead of picking up a radio, because it's what they prefer, and like to use.

People eat fatty food that's bad for them all the time when they could eat healthy. Why? because they like it more. Being healthy eating people or even *Gasp* Vegans or their ilk, is CLEARLY more logical. Its better for you. You can cut out countless medical problems if you eat better, and don't fill your bodies with junk. But.. so very few people do it. It's clearly stupid to mainline pizza and cheese burgers, donuts and cheesecake.. but people do it. You could just eat a carrot, but most people reach for the candybar first.

People aren't logical, for the most part. We let our preferences, and likes guide our hands in the presence of CLEAR AND OVERWHELMING information pointing the other way.

And that's just eating. Don't get me started on booze, smoking, drugs, etc. ( As I don't touch any of those, but pass the pizza please)

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Two, it has always been a huge problem that man-at-arms characters dont get bonuses to combat as OCC abilities to differentiate them from other OCCs. (The few that do, actually, are heads-and-shoulders better and should have been the template).

Naa not a huge problem. Palladium combat is so simplistic it doesn't really factor in all that much. I've played men at arms char's for decades just fine. Is it a logic hole? Sure. Does it rate huge problem? naa

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Three, creating classes with choice/customizability (is that a word?) and then insisting that You're Doing It Wrong if you USE that customizability is just dumb.

It's not though. You're told before you put pen to paper what that class is, and the magic sections are shockingly clear on how mages perceive the world. If you ---choose--- the mages ----anyway---- and then complain about the limitations. That's on you. You'd be the dumb one, for going into an OCC amongst 100s, and then whining that you're expected to play the OCC you chose.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

If you dont want Mages using guns, dont let them use guns.

They -can- use guns. Just like a Jedi -can- use guns. It's just not their 'go to'. Same as a jedi.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
If you allow people to customize their characters (especially to the extent that Palladium generally does, outside of a few OCCs that are pretty locked down), you have to accept that, at that point, "general rules" and "fluff" for classes become irrelevant and unenforceable, and classes are basically just game mechanics to fit your character around.

No. One doesn't have to accept that at all.

That statement is nothing more than saying 'I'm ignoring the setting to make a char that has both spells and is a commando"

If you want to play a mage, play a mage. if you want to play a commando play a commando. If you want a bit of both, there's actually a few that bridge the gap, but do NOT 'Accept" that at some point people are just going to cheat.

"Well people cheat" is not the base of building a game or a game world. Of course they're going to cheat. lol but that doesn't make the game world stupid. That just makes THAT PERSON a cheater.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:a dragon can morph into a cat and rip your leg off and kill you with it

This raises some questions for me:

1) is there a cutoff to how much MD you can inflict with supernatural PS when wielding an SDC melee weapon? I remember HU2 had something like 3x (10x for good construction) normal damage maximum (plus change of breakage) but I can't remember if Rifts did.

2) aside from pulling a bowstring with your teeth, do we have any rules for wielding other weapons (be it melee or ranged) in one's mouth when in a form without hands, such as a cat?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:They have to run their lil butts where ever they want to go/be, to kill what ever they're trying to kill.

They have other options besides running

Although it reduces their defensive ability temporarily so you don't see it done often.