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One interesting aspect of the P.S. vs P.P. vs P.E. question is what happens above an attribute value of 30. In P2E, there are no rules on this. However, if you use RUE, then the following considerations come into play:

P.S. damage bonuses continue to ramp up at +1 per point above 30.

P.P. strike/parry/dodge bonuses do not go up any further above 30, but they do confer an initiative bonus for every 3 points above 30.

P.E. save bonuses vs magic/poison stop at 30, though Coma/death save bonuses keep going up, and the character is effectively immune to disease.

Based on this, as well as the greater availability of bonuses to P.S. in the game, I'm thinking that P.S. is a generally better choice for melee combat.

Or you could use the tmnt stat chart that goes to 42, and if I remember correctly an addendum that goes higher.
To me it looks like Kevin figured out high PP was an issue and tried to patch the problem by keeping people to a maximum of 30, so what does happen when someone with a PP of 20 gets fleet feeted? There is an easy method of getting over 30 but no stats for it. Logic would dictate it went up 2 for 1, unless you went by the chart as a maximum.

Whiskeyjack wrote:I think people tend to take too much from movies and books that always make communities hotbeds of intrigue and lies. In reality, especially when faced with adversity, people tend to be decent and look out for one another. I think you'd find the same thing in a fantasy setting where magic and psionics are real and have existed since before most races came in to being. While there will definitely be places where abilities are considered unnatural, I think most would be rather accepting of them and realize the potential for good from such abilities.

especially when it is 25% of people. it cant be all too alien when its almost certain that someone in your family has some power.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Whiskeyjack wrote:I think people tend to take too much from movies and books that always make communities hotbeds of intrigue and lies. In reality, especially when faced with adversity, people tend to be decent and look out for one another. I think you'd find the same thing in a fantasy setting where magic and psionics are real and have existed since before most races came in to being. While there will definitely be places where abilities are considered unnatural, I think most would be rather accepting of them and realize the potential for good from such abilities.

especially when it is 25% of people. it cant be all too alien when its almost certain that someone in your family has some power.

That's because communities are hotbeds of intrigue and lies. Usually mostly about sex and/or money. The percentage of adultery is thought to be %20 to %50. That's a lot of intrigue just there.
And in our world we have shown again and again how intolerant of differences we are, and if you wanted to match that with what happens in our world just think of the below. How are people treated with different skin colour etc

Special powers = different.
different skin colour or body shape = different.
Physical deformity = different.

Also look how %50 of the population have been treated in our world.
What happens to a woman when she walks around topless. Just because people have something doesn't mean that aren't denigrated for it, or taught that it is shameful. Breasts keep babies alive, but somehow is seeing breasts is shameful, Don't believe me, in summer how many topless guys compared to topless women do you see.

And also
It's %25 of the people except for when it isn't.
How many of the npc's in the books have psionics.
Flicking through im not seeing 1 in 4.

kiralon wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:especially when it is 25% of people. it cant be all too alien when its almost certain that someone in your family has some power.

And also
It's %25 of the people except for when it isn't.
How many of the npc's in the books have psionics.
Flicking through im not seeing 1 in 4.

I don't think that 25% of people in the Palladium World have psionics. It's 25% of player characters whose real-life creator decides to roll on the Random Psionics Table. Even amongst player characters there may be way less than 25% as plenty of people won't roll on that table; conversely there may be more than 25% depending on how many players choose a master psionic P.C.C.

Are 10% of people in the Palladium World the first born of twins? Do 9% of the world's population live in the Land of the South Winds? These tables are all just part of the character creation rules, not a census for the Palladium World.

Just to complicate the matter further, I think that these three stats are balanced best in the context of Palladium Fantasy. If you were to take a max P.S. or max P.E. character into an M.D.C. world, they'd fare far worse than the max P.P. character, as SDC damage is irrelevant for most Rifts combat. So if I were to roll up a new melee character for Fantasy and had the choice, I'd focus on strength first unless I thought we'd be taking the group on a Megaversal jaunt.

In the very first, not revised, version of Heroes Unlimited (it’s a relatively skinny book that is hard to find) PP only modified strike and parry. SPD modified dodge. I always liked this better from a game balance point of view. Plus it just created more interesting characters because you ended up with greater diversity of modifiers across characters for parry, dodge, and strike, and it made the use of dodge more common because if you had skills like Running your dodge was almost always far superior to your parry. So it made for more interesting combats.

Anyway, if one used SPD and not PP for dodge, it makes the judgement about which of the three stats is “king” even more unclear.

I think this might also be true for TMNT as well, that SPD and not PP modified dodge rolls, I need to look that up ... now where did I put that book?

Graymouser65 wrote:In the very first, not revised, version of Heroes Unlimited (it’s a relatively skinny book that is hard to find) PP only modified strike and parry. SPD modified dodge. I always liked this better from a game balance point of view. Plus it just created more interesting characters because you ended up with greater diversity of modifiers across characters for parry, dodge, and strike, and it made the use of dodge more common because if you had skills like Running your dodge was almost always far superior to your parry. So it made for more interesting combats.

Anyway, if one used SPD and not PP for dodge, it makes the judgement about which of the three stats is “king” even more unclear.

I think this might also be true for TMNT as well, that SPD and not PP modified dodge rolls, I need to look that up ... now where did I put that book?

It's the same in TMNT. I already pulled mine to double check.

kiralon wrote:That's because communities are hotbeds of intrigue and lies. Usually mostly about sex and/or money. The percentage of adultery is thought to be %20 to %50. That's a lot of intrigue just there.
And in our world we have shown again and again how intolerant of differences we are, and if you wanted to match that with what happens in our world just think of the below. How are people treated with different skin colour etc

Special powers = different.
different skin colour or body shape = different.
Physical deformity = different.

Also look how %50 of the population have been treated in our world.
What happens to a woman when she walks around topless. Just because people have something doesn't mean that aren't denigrated for it, or taught that it is shameful. Breasts keep babies alive, but somehow is seeing breasts is shameful, Don't believe me, in summer how many topless guys compared to topless women do you see.

And also
It's %25 of the people except for when it isn't.
How many of the npc's in the books have psionics.
Flicking through im not seeing 1 in 4.

Again, you're looking at this from a media standpoint, not a real world standpoint. And from your comment on women going topless, I'm going to say an American viewpoint at that. There are actually other countries in the world. And most of them are nowhere near as prudish as the US when it comes to female nudity. And 1000 years ago it was even less of a stigma.
In my own city this is quite easily proven by the large number of Syrian refugees that came here. While you do see people grumble on social media about the millions of dollars each individual receives (because these people are stupid enough to believe that), they have by and large been welcomed with open arms. Even though they have different skin colour, speak a different language, and practice a different religion.
You're also making the assumption that everyone with psionics is going to be blasting them around. Empathy isn't exactly something you can prove someone has. Virtually every Healing power can be hidden with a simple poultice. "This should take the pain away quite quickly" (using deaden pain, followed by healing touch). Out of the physical there are only 4 that are really obvious. The rest can easily be hidden in plain sight. Sensitive are all invisible powers, and even most of the Super powers are invisible. Unless someone uses them simply to cause harm, most powers would be used with NO ONE knowing they had been used. And trying to narrow down who in a crowd used telekinesis is going to be impossible.

As to NPCs. These are characters created by the writer to add flavour and adventure ideas into a book with a set page count. Going by your knowledge, if a book had no NPCs with psionics, that then means that psionics no longer exist in the game.

kiralon wrote:That's because communities are hotbeds of intrigue and lies. Usually mostly about sex and/or money. The percentage of adultery is thought to be %20 to %50. That's a lot of intrigue just there.
And in our world we have shown again and again how intolerant of differences we are, and if you wanted to match that with what happens in our world just think of the below. How are people treated with different skin colour etc

Special powers = different.
different skin colour or body shape = different.
Physical deformity = different.

Also look how %50 of the population have been treated in our world.
What happens to a woman when she walks around topless. Just because people have something doesn't mean that aren't denigrated for it, or taught that it is shameful. Breasts keep babies alive, but somehow is seeing breasts is shameful, Don't believe me, in summer how many topless guys compared to topless women do you see.

And also
It's %25 of the people except for when it isn't.
How many of the npc's in the books have psionics.
Flicking through im not seeing 1 in 4.

Honestly, That sounds like the Marvel Universe View point. Fear breeds distrusts and hatred, being unfamiliar or Downright unknown causes fear which in turn causes hatred. General world build of Marvel Universe, DC Universe was practically it's opposite, Judge based on actions, even if that action was only a moment of "I want to help" the character is labelled a Hero, even if they look like a Demon out of Spawn.

Being a people watcher however, I'd say the original Writers of the game liked the concept of Marvel as it gave us more iconic and emotional roller coasters for drama. RPG's need the drama, so modelling after them will certainly help.
But humans learn and adapt, Now if experiences are negative, they learn to associate that with X. X = Different Humans, Psionics, Mages, Mutants and etc. Negative's sadly have been found to stick around easier in a person's mind than positives. Negatives being regulated to a general basis, however Positives have been found to be strangely singular.

Example- Mutants are evil, But Romeo Jones saved me, He's a mutant, so Romeo is probably seems to be trustworthy.

A case could be made in a Palladium Setting that a house hold of Psychic healers who's gift of healing passing on down the genetic line would be accepted so long as they kept healing others. Same could be said for a family of Physical Psyhics that have defended a town for generations.

But a Stranger that comes to that same town, who might have the same abilities would likely be shunned or attacked because that aren't Romeo or related to Romeo. (Even if they claim to be an illegitimate child of Romeo)

SO in closing, I generally run my games with this viewpoint. If your a Stranger that shows off these abilities, Likely not going to be liked until you start building up the reputation of someone helping others. Sadly as in real life, negative press always seems to travel faster than positive press. So characters with such abilities have to always watch themselves and hold back.

I had a player destroy an entire town of Women and Children because a child shot him with an arrow. The men of the town where out hunting for food. When they returned their shaman spoke with the dead, found out about the group and more specifically the WOLFEN that had killed defenseless women and children after a child had managed to hit with a warning shot. The group saw dissent against Women slowly on the rise again and they themselves had made a tribe of hunters into 'nothing to lose' killers of Wolfen.

Same player has done similar over kill compensation in other games. He killed a merchant that called him a lazy Coyle.

The group kept having to rebuild reputations because of the characters Temper and no one wanted to throw the Wolfen out because that would be racist. (group was 2 Humans 1 Wolfen and One Changeling pretending to be a Human)

Whiskeyjack wrote:

kiralon wrote:That's because communities are hotbeds of intrigue and lies. Usually mostly about sex and/or money. The percentage of adultery is thought to be %20 to %50. That's a lot of intrigue just there.
And in our world we have shown again and again how intolerant of differences we are, and if you wanted to match that with what happens in our world just think of the below. How are people treated with different skin colour etc

Special powers = different.
different skin colour or body shape = different.
Physical deformity = different.

Also look how %50 of the population have been treated in our world.
What happens to a woman when she walks around topless. Just because people have something doesn't mean that aren't denigrated for it, or taught that it is shameful. Breasts keep babies alive, but somehow is seeing breasts is shameful, Don't believe me, in summer how many topless guys compared to topless women do you see.

And also
It's %25 of the people except for when it isn't.
How many of the npc's in the books have psionics.
Flicking through im not seeing 1 in 4.

Again, you're looking at this from a media standpoint, not a real world standpoint. And from your comment on women going topless, I'm going to say an American viewpoint at that. There are actually other countries in the world. And most of them are nowhere near as prudish as the US when it comes to female nudity. And 1000 years ago it was even less of a stigma.
In my own city this is quite easily proven by the large number of Syrian refugees that came here. While you do see people grumble on social media about the millions of dollars each individual receives (because these people are stupid enough to believe that), they have by and large been welcomed with open arms. Even though they have different skin colour, speak a different language, and practice a different religion.
You're also making the assumption that everyone with psionics is going to be blasting them around. Empathy isn't exactly something you can prove someone has. Virtually every Healing power can be hidden with a simple poultice. "This should take the pain away quite quickly" (using deaden pain, followed by healing touch). Out of the physical there are only 4 that are really obvious. The rest can easily be hidden in plain sight. Sensitive are all invisible powers, and even most of the Super powers are invisible. Unless someone uses them simply to cause harm, most powers would be used with NO ONE knowing they had been used. And trying to narrow down who in a crowd used telekinesis is going to be impossible.

As to NPCs. These are characters created by the writer to add flavour and adventure ideas into a book with a set page count. Going by your knowledge, if a book had no NPCs with psionics, that then means that psionics no longer exist in the game.

I lived in a small village where the people were really, really nice, and would help you in lots of ways, but there was always drama going on underneath, and it was usually about relationships or money. I'm going to guess you have only lived in a city and haven't lived in a town where you literally knew everybody, or you didn't care enough about what was going on around you. To me it always seemed like an extensions of the dramas from high school, except they were adults. And it didn't stop, even friends I thought of as intelligent and generally nice people got in on the act(s, as it took almost 30 years to calm down).
I also think its strange that you don't think there is a stigma on women's breasts. Look how many women get embarrassed if their ***** show,
Again, you're looking at this from a media standpoint, not a real world standpoint. And from your comment on women going topless, I'm going to say an American viewpoint at that. There are actually other countries in the world. And most of them are nowhere near as prudish as the US when it comes to female nudity. And 1000 years ago it was even less of a stigma.
Well I believe you believe this, but then why aren't half the population taking their tops off when hot. On a really hot day have you gone into town and seen any women without a top on. There are other countries where there are places that its acceptable to go topless, but its not across the whole of their country (usually the beaches).
And if it was less of a stigma a thousand years ago why do most of the pictures that depict women just generally working show them covered, and their clothes were the same. The same prudish religions were around getting women to cover up their "sinful attributes" back then too. It was only the places that didn't have those religions that ignored breasts.
I don't do social media so I miss out there.
And no, I don't think people with psionics would be blasting them around, you are making that assumption. I go by the, "hey mummy look what I can do, no never do that only bad sons do that, never do that in public as it will get you in trouble" style, pretty much the same way that women are shamed into covering up. You are taught you are a bad person for doing something natural, so get shamed when doing it, so then often respond overreact when faced with something that shames them (by ostracising the psionicist who made a rock float).
Evolution has told us that different is bad. Different clubs us over the head and takes our resources, or just plain kills us. That can be hard for people to get over even now.
Look at children, until they have had training to be nice, look at how they treat someone who is different. Kids can be cruel little buggers.

As to NPCs. These are characters created by the writer to add flavour and adventure ideas into a book with a set page count. Going by your knowledge, if a book had no NPCs with psionics, that then means that psionics no longer exist in the game.
I don't actually believe you believe that, but Ill poke back. The book says that a certain % of people have psionics. Apparently they are only player characters, because the books have a range of people, but very few of them have psionics, almost like someone writing the npc's forgot about psionics (unless they are part of a story) not to mention I don't believe any of them were rolled up in the normal way. Just created from the writers memory.

Whiskeyjack wrote:
It's the same in TMNT. I already pulled mine to double check.

in TMNT, SPD -ALSO- added to dodge, but PP added to all three. I've never seen the non-revised Heroes, but my TMNT book is a first printing signed by Eastman and Laird (that i picked up at a used book store on a lark, didnt even realize it was signed at first).

kiralon wrote:How many of the npc's in the books have psionics.
Flicking through im not seeing 1 in 4.

If you take every single NPC ever statted out in a book that is a PC race with human-like Psionics and totaled it up...

You'd be looking at .001% of the worldwide population of such people at most.

There are hundreds of millions of sentients living on the Palladium World. There are maybe... what? Three, four thousand NPCs given stats, at the most?

Soldier of Od wrote:I don't think that 25% of people in the Palladium World have psionics.

Why would it be any different from any other Palladium setting which has psionics as posibility for characters? (I.E., Heroes does not have this, because in that setting Psionics are super powers, etc). All of the settings which have the 25% random roll have been proven that that applies to everyone, not just PCs. Why would Palladium be any different?

Are 10% of people in the Palladium World the first born of twins? Do 9% of the world's population live in the Land of the South Winds? These tables are all just part of the character creation rules, not a census for the Palladium World.

One is an actual relevant mechanical game stat, one is just a table to make generating a background easier for people who dont have that much imagination or just dont want to put the effort in.

They aren't similar at all.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

kiralon wrote:How many of the npc's in the books have psionics.
Flicking through im not seeing 1 in 4.

If you take every single NPC ever statted out in a book that is a PC race with human-like Psionics and totaled it up...

You'd be looking at .001% of the worldwide population of such people at most.

There are hundreds of millions of sentients living on the Palladium World. There are maybe... what? Three, four thousand NPCs given stats, at the most?

Soldier of Od wrote:I don't think that 25% of people in the Palladium World have psionics.

Why would it be any different from any other Palladium setting which has psionics as posibility for characters? (I.E., Heroes does not have this, because in that setting Psionics are super powers, etc). All of the settings which have the 25% random roll have been proven that that applies to everyone, not just PCs. Why would Palladium be any different?

Are 10% of people in the Palladium World the first born of twins? Do 9% of the world's population live in the Land of the South Winds? These tables are all just part of the character creation rules, not a census for the Palladium World.

One is an actual relevant mechanical game stat, one is just a table to make generating a background easier for people who dont have that much imagination or just dont want to put the effort in.

They aren't similar at all.

I guess we're not going to agree on this (and that's fine - we all play our own games our own way!), but just to make my point clear: the random psionics table is a tool for character generation, just like any other. For a start, it is optional - that in the very least shows that it does not apply to the entire population, just to those players who wish to use it when they are creating their characters.

Well, I think that character background is at just as relevant as mechanical stats (if not more so), and that rolling on an optional table to determine if my character has psionics or rolling on an optional table determine my character's land of origin (etc.) is very similar, but I guess that just comes down to personal opinion, so I will leave it at that!

Where is the proof you are referring to regarding the 25% tables refers to everyone in other settings? I am not aware of this.

Sorry, Hotrod, I realise I am one of those responsible for derailing your thread, so in answer to your actual post -
I personally go for high P.P., because it works for both offence and defence. But it can be quite frustrating some times when your character hits often, but for relatively little damage, slowly whittling down your opponent, and a comrade with a high P.S. comes in and gets one lucky hit that caves their head in! So maybe P.S.
I dunno - they all have good points - probably why this makes for a good question!

Also, regarding the bonuses for dodge from Spd. (I believe they are in Ninjas and Superspies too): I was quite keen on this idea when I saw it, but because so many characters these days can have extraordinarily high Spd. values, allowing Spd. to add to dodge could get pretty ridiculous pretty quickly. Unless, of course, we can say that the bonuses are capped at 30. As an afterthought, perhaps they could allow extra bonuses to dodge while actually travelling at very high speeds, like some of the superpowers do.

Prysus wrote:

Greetings and Salutations. Okay, I'll answer (1) the main question (with personal preference), and (2) the sub-topic with a few book references.

1. I picked P.P. While I think it's fair to say that situations can make all of them useful, P.P. has the most general use. It can be useful in melee combat. As stated it has a greater advantage in non-PF settings. And in PF it also has the advantage in ranged combat, because P.P. adds to Strike with an arrow and may (depending on exact rules being used) help you avoid enemy ranged attacks (while P.S. and P.E. are effectively useless in those situations). P.S. won't help a magic or psionics, but P.P. can help keep those characters alive if an opponent gets too close (P.E. may be more useful to the mage though, depending on preferences). I mean heck, even with some abilities (such as Telekinetic Force Field) if used as a reactionary defense requires a parry roll (so a high P.P. will apparently help you mentally think faster as well, go figure).

2.

Palladium Fantasy Second Edition, page 21 wrote:In the Palladium World, psychic powers are comparatively common. Even an average person may have some degree of psychic power.

Now this states that psychic powers are "common" and "even an average person" may have them. However, this doesn't state a percentage so there's some room interpretation for here. Though it's stated directly under the random roll percentages, so we can guess.

Palladium Fantasy Second Edition, page 155 wrote:Approximately 25-30% of the human population possesses minor psionic powers. Of them, a comparatively tiny percentage (2% to 4%) possess incredible psi-power. [snip] They are hereditary traits shared by humans and many intelligent life forms across the Megaverse™.

So we're told that 25-30% of the human population (not just player characters) possess psychic power. 2-4% (from the reading) would be master psychics. That would place between 21-28% of the human population as minor or major psychics. That indicates there's some level of fluctuation in exact numbers, or that no hard numbers have ever been gathered. Either way, we're close to the 25% number provided in Step 3 (on page 21), where they also discuss the "average" person.

Here, we also have reference that psionics are hereditary. Now this isn't a big deal in most cases, but certain families using their powers in certain ways came up earlier, and this made me think of it. And while random mutations may yet still happen (so someone developing psychic powers in a family line that never had them before), there's also the possibility that when little Suzy develops psychic powers, it may mean her daddy isn't who everyone thinks and this may stir up some trouble. Of course this could be one of those situations where both parents had a recessive gene that neither knew about (but that's science stuff the Palladium World probably doesn't know much about).

Anyways, that's all for now. Hope some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Well there you go - there it is in black and white. Good find, Prysus. My only point was that the random psionics table didn't necessarily mean that the population as a whole was the same, but it is clearly stated elsewhere so that's good enough for me! I stand corrected! Nice to have it spelled out for sure.

Depends on the character I'm playing or helping others to make.

Generally I play a spell caster or Psychic character

Whiskeyjack wrote:The hurled object is a rather decent tactic with the rules. I think they're a bit broken though, similar to super TK.

Heh... I had an AD&D half ogre character at the back of a scrum, and no way to fight without wading through the other PCs... So he picked-up a "couch" and threw it over the melee and hit one of the bad guys in the face!

Now, that being said, as per the OP's question...
Generally, I prefer PP...however, all have significant advantages.
If your opponent is wearing a 20SDC armour, and you hit it with your 30 PS, you have something like a 30% chance of destroying it in one shot, and still injuring the wearer.
The 30 PP, naturally means that your opponent is less likely to ever hit, and means you can possibly inflict the death of a thousand cuts before they can crush you.
The 30 PE, does mean you're harder to kill, and easier to bring back. But, for saves, a natural 1 still kills. (I had a PF ogre that had a negative save versus magic...waded into a cloud of slumber to ensure the rest of the party can escape 'cause I'm invulnerable...and then proceeded to roll a "1".)

That being said...
Maybe I'll put it into Spd...then I can run away from your 30, and let the archers take you down!

Well, I apologize for resurrecting this thread, especially since it was taken off track by Hotrod referecing one of my posts and then the psionics discussion rambled on. In the current game in which I'm playing, PS is dominating. I know I said PP at first, but I have converted. Now, this is more of a practical example as opposed to Hotrod's theoretical MAX score vs MAX score, I admit, but it's striking (pun intended). We had a PC with a 25 PP. He was difficult to hit, and he had a high chance to hit, but his damage was negligible and he was ineffective.

I think the main reason for this is that there are so many ways to increase PS vs PP. Using RAW, and taking an OCC that has no limitations on physcal skills, you can add +7 to your strength. All you need is a slightly better than average roll on the dice and you're doing extra damage. If you play a race with a large PS roll, like a Dwarf, Orc, or Troll, then you're easily in the 20s. Conversely, the best you can do on PP is +2 from the physicals. And the races with bonused to PP are rarer, and the more common ones, only get 4d6. Then there is the Superhuman Strength spell/potion. Finally, while you're boosting your PS, you're also adding on more SDC, which means the deft high PP attacks need to hit more times to win the fight.

As Hotrod brought up, the defensive bonuses of parry/dodge are irrelevant if the really strong person eschews defensive measures in favor of just attacking with a simultaneous attack. You just wait until your opponent attacks you and then you simultanseously attack back. All you need to do is overcome the armor. This will scale as levels increase and bonuses from H2H and WP skills add bonuses to strike while AR remains static. But basically, you just aborb the incoming attack with your SDC and then you whallop someone with your simultaneous strike. Likely, you are both hit, but you're going to win that uneven battle of attrition.

The other thing in favor of PS is that PP doesn't contribute at all to critical strikes or doubling of damage. If you roll a natural 20, or a critical strike for a higher level character, your PS advantage has doubled. If you roll a 20 natrually, PP is a non-factor.
Critical strikes don't care about your modified roll, but they do care about your bonuse damage. This is also true for the paired weapons twin strike at a single opponent. Sure, your PP will help with the strike, but it doesn't double the bonus to strike. But if you hit with both weapons, that PS is counting twice.

Just for fun, I tried to make a true Hotrod Smash character. I went with a Troll Barbarian. This is straight from the book with no magical or superior crafted weapons. Hotrod Smash! had a 42 PS as I went with the extra PS (even with the barbarian you get more PS than PE or PP), extra SDC, and the paired weapons. So, I used my extra starting gold and bought a second voulge. So, twin voulges, each doing 5d6, along with a bonus of +27 to strength. 10d6+52, for an average of 87 HP/SDC. He also had something like 104 SDC. Extreme example, I know, but even someone with a 30 PP better have a really high AR and/or A LOT of SDC.

-Vek
"PP was king in 1st Edition."

Yes in that circumstance a high PS would win, but in games you have played how often have you been paired weapon simultaneous struck, cause if a player of mine did it more than twice in a game it would prove its superiority as a game mechanic and that's all the enemy would use on them from that point on, because why would they do anything else if that was the way to win. In games that i have dm'd the players with the high PP have always proved more troublesome than the high ps players, because the difference in strike/parry/dodge can be up to 8 levels in difference. So if the enemy can defeat the high pp players, the high ps players have issues landing blows because of the difference and the bigger bonuses to parry, and if they are fightable by the high PS players, the enemy have issues hitting the high pp players who have a crazy parry bonus. In Singular combat with PS is superior, in a party, PP to me is way more irritating because that's what i play.

tldr: balancing high pp characters with high ps characters sucks.

Well, I have seen people to it before to enemies. It's particularly used against casters since they tend to have lower SDC. But people usually don't use it because they're worried about being hit. That's a very real world way to think about combat, which I like. A GM, who isn't wedded to the characters in the way a player is, could be VERY cheap and have all of his or her enemies just attack without trying to parry or dodge. You could wear out PC's. It does make undead more dangerous, with zombies and skeletons not trying to parry or dodge.

However, I included it as an example of how you could overcome the PP bonuses with a strategic sacrifice. It's like the final fight from Rob Roy. You can't hit the guy, well just take one of his puny stabs and hit him with your power. It also makes for some interesting uses of other abilities. In general, the power punch attack is lame since it usually just does double damage for two attacks. If you have a PS bonus, that means you lose that second PS damage (assuming you hit). At higher levels, it's even less desirous since your critical range can increase so it's more benificial to take a second die roll. But, if you are going to absorb a hit, then a power punch or its equivalent makes more sense.

-Vek
"All of this can be mitigated by magic or psionics."

Mirroring effective player tactics always seems a bit hokey; better to have them adapt to a deadly melee foe by running, using missile weapons, toxins/poisons, superior numbers, weighted nets, psionics, magic, or choosing the scenario so the PC can’t get into melee combat, like an ambush from atop a cliff, or a sea battle, or having to shield someone else. Having NGR a character face an antagonist with similar tricks can be fun now and then, but it’s best to do that sparingly, or it gets stale, sort of like Iron Man 2.

There's another factor I haven't really considered much: utility outside combat.

The saves vs magic and poison can be invaluable for a high P.E. character. With some effort, it's not inconceivable that such a character might get so high a bonus that saving becomes almost automatic through "save vs magic" equipment and other shenanigans. Having a character who automatically (or almost automatically) passes saving throws vs ____ could be pretty effective in many scenarios. Wards all over the box you need to open? Don't burn up your anti-magic cloud scroll, buddy, I got this. Magic disabling everyone else in the party? The max P.E. character hangs on and saves the day. Need to convince someone to drink a toxin/poison beverage? "Here, it's safe, let me show you. *glug*"

High P.S. characters can also be useful for moving, lifting, and breaking things that ordinarily aren't movable or breakable, holding doors closed or forcing them open against people on the other side (or just smashing them), pulling or carrying people up walls/cliffs that they can't climb, and hauling away massive amounts of treasure.

Outside of combat, what benefit does a super-high P.P. bring?

Well, another consideration I just thought about is the availability of temporary inceases to the stat. That's in the PP favor since there are drugs and spells that can drastically increase PS but I can't think of anything outside of Fleet Feet (which DOUBLES PP!!!) that affects you Physical Prowess.

-Vek
"If you are a caster with the Superhuman Strength spell, the fighters will always ask for it."

Hotrod wrote:There's another factor I haven't really considered much: utility outside combat.

Outside of combat, what benefit does a super-high P.P. bring?

Your grace on the dancefloor is sure to make the ladies swoon.