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One thing I hope they cover here for Lazlo in terms of resources is that most of the natural resources Lazlo uses should not come from Earth. The are masters of dimensional magic maybe they have extraction in a place like the Scorched lands from Phase World or a possibly uninhabited parallel earth like Takamatsu kingdom in Japan.

I just really hope we see what amounts to a high magic society.

Except they're also the masters and origin of technowizardy. We should see both very high magic and pretty damn high tech use as well thus making them the "goal" of how a Rifts Earth society "should" try to be.

jaymz wrote:With the amount of magic at the city state's disposal food, shelter, and resources in general should be the least of their concerns even with the large influx of tolkeen refugees.

yeah, well, the authors are rarely very good at taking into account every possible use of magic.

*should* they be able to make a TW device that casts sustain on people? yeah, they probably should. will anyone have done it? probably not.

*should* they have TW woodworking shops that churn out MDC pre-fab wooden houses with no input other than PPE? yeah, they probably should. will anyone have done it? probably not.

*should* they have metal recycling plants that generate more MDC materials than are put into them? yeah, they probably should. will anyone have done it? probably not.

apparently, the magicians in rifts who think that magic should be used to solve everything are absolutely rubbish at actually using magic to solve their problems.

jaymz wrote:Except they're also the masters and origin of technowizardy. We should see both very high magic and pretty damn high tech use as well thus making them the "goal" of how a Rifts Earth society "should" try to be.

Agreed fully, except we have tons of Techno-wizardry all over Earth and other dimensions. What we really don't have, except maybe in PFRPG I leave that to others who are better read in that setting, is a truly high magic society. Some true non-TW magic items. Things created from magic not combining magic and tech. Go high fantasy with this town.

Shark_Force wrote:

jaymz wrote:With the amount of magic at the city state's disposal food, shelter, and resources in general should be the least of their concerns even with the large influx of tolkeen refugees.

yeah, well, the authors are rarely very good at taking into account every possible use of magic.

*should* they be able to make a TW device that casts sustain on people? yeah, they probably should. will anyone have done it? probably not.

*should* they have TW woodworking shops that churn out MDC pre-fab wooden houses with no input other than PPE? yeah, they probably should. will anyone have done it? probably not.

*should* they have metal recycling plants that generate more MDC materials than are put into them? yeah, they probably should. will anyone have done it? probably not.

apparently, the magicians in rifts who think that magic should be used to solve everything are absolutely rubbish at actually using magic to solve their problems.

All these things can be interesting but I added them myself decades ago and it really falls into line with the Federation of Magic or Arzno. What I want above all for Lazlo is to feel like another world.

Warshield73 wrote:All these things can be interesting but I added them myself decades ago and it really falls into line with the Federation of Magic or Arzno. What I want above all for Lazlo is to feel like another world.

that wouldn't make much sense. they are one of the most powerful influences on the rest of north america in the setting. it should be similar, not because lazlo is a lot like all the other societies that accept both magic and technology in north america, but because all the other societies are a lot like lazlo.

Shark_Force wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:All these things can be interesting but I added them myself decades ago and it really falls into line with the Federation of Magic or Arzno. What I want above all for Lazlo is to feel like another world.

that wouldn't make much sense. they are one of the most powerful influences on the rest of north america in the setting. it should be similar, not because lazlo is a lot like all the other societies that accept both magic and technology in north america, but because all the other societies are a lot like lazlo.

Not true. Outside of Techno-Wizardry itself it's hard to find direct links to places like Arzno. In fact if you look at the origins of places in the Federation of Magic it is clear they came about separately from Lazlo and in many ways are antithetical to Lazlo. Even a place like Magestar which I would argue is ideologically closest to Lazlo in the zone gets all it's influences from Dweomer.

Even if it was it doesn't mean that Lazlo has to be the same as these places, they could all just be pale reflections of Lazlo.

I disagree.

Lazlo NEEDS to be an amalgamation if magic technology and psionics.

IE the good parts of tolkeen chitown and psyscape.

Its what other societies should aspire to be....

Broad inclusion, acceptance, tolerance.

And the amount of wanting divisiveness built in just baffles me. There's way more than enough of that already in setting so why not make Lazlo different by NOT having that?

jaymz wrote:I disagree.

Lazlo NEEDS to be an amalgamation if magic technology and psionics.

IE the good parts of tolkeen chitown and psyscape.

Its what other societies should aspire to be....

Broad inclusion, acceptance, tolerance.

And the amount of wanting divisiveness built in just baffles me. There's way more than enough of that already in setting so why not make Lazlo different by NOT having that?

that's why I was pushing for the idea that the various "factions" if you have to have factions all generally agree on a broad spectrum of the big picture, but they have disagreements in the details and or how to get to the same goal

jaymz wrote:I disagree.

Lazlo NEEDS to be an amalgamation if magic technology and psionics.

IE the good parts of tolkeen chitown and psyscape.

I don't disagree with any of this. My main NPC from Lazlo is not just a sorceress that has been in the city since it was founded but a pre-Rifts computer expert (she is based on a redheaded witch who was also a computer nerd from a TV show about vampires) and on top her spells and mystic knowledge she has an actual AI (named after the British librarian from that show). So I do this in my own games. I just think the magic needs to be front and center and...

jaymz wrote:Its what other societies should aspire to be....

Broad inclusion, acceptance, tolerance.

...this is too me the most important part. I want to see TW's creating emergency housing for refugees but more importantly I want see those refugees accepted and protected.

jaymz wrote:And the amount of wanting divisiveness built in just baffles me. There's way more than enough of that already in setting so why not make Lazlo different by NOT having that?

Agreed, in fact this was the subject of my first post on this topic.

guardiandashi wrote:that's why I was pushing for the idea that the various "factions" if you have to have factions all generally agree on a broad spectrum of the big picture, but they have disagreements in the details and or how to get to the same goal

Truthfully this would be a great way to handle it because no even reasonably free place is going to be free of divisions.

To address the original poster’s, Hotrod, questions first (and I am paraphrasing); what do I think the long awaited Rifts Lazlo world book will look like, the shortest answer is disappointing.

To elaborate on that point, we must look at Palladium’s track record in the areas that must be covered by any book on Lazlo. We will start with numbers. To date, Palladium has consistently showed a lack of understanding of the actual value of numbers beyond say 10 and their impact as applied to a multitude of different subjects. One need only look at the material for Phase World/Three Galaxies to see evidence of that. To illustrate my point using just that one source, consider the speeds given for starships, specifically their sub-light speed. Per Dimension Book 2 – Phase World, pg. 169, the CAF Scimitar class frigate has a maximum sub-light speed of Mach 8 or 6,138 miles per hour. Sounds fast right? And if we were dealing with a planetary distance, it would be but when compared to distances in space, it is appalling slow. At that speed it would take 39 hours or the next best thing to two full days for the Scimitar just cross the distance between the Earth and The Moon. There are numerous other examples but I refuse to go so far astray from the topic.

Next, Palladium has also demonstrated a remarkable refusal to consider the implications of magic in a world which also possess technology more advanced than a crossbow. Like with the subject of numbers and their meanings, this is a topic that could occupy its own thread and as such, I won’t go too far into the weeds here. I will restrict myself to saying that one, in every measurable way in a tactical environment; range, damage, duration, payload, speed, altitude, high technology outclasses magic in general and spell magic in specific. Two, Kevin S. has a remarkably rigid and specific concept of what a spellcaster is and isn’t. He said as much in one of the forewords of Heroes Unlimited, where he explains that it is due to a psychological block on his part, that spell casting superheroes were so completely different than spell casters in Palladium Fantasy or Rifts. He just couldn’t see them as superheroes. It is logical to conclude that this psychological block, this perception of what a spellcaster is and isn’t, manifests itself in other areas too.

So based on the above and taking into account everything we have already seen from Palladium when it comes to Rifts and spellcasters/magic users, I expect all or most of the following to be what we get.

First off, Lazlo will continue to not have an actual, professional military. Kevin will continue to insist that somehow, a fledgling community was able to grow into a city-state of nearly 3 million (RUE, pg. 21) with an all-volunteer militia. That is quite simply, absurd. It makes no sense whatsoever in the context of the Rifts setting or in the real world. In Rifts, especially during the actual apocalypse, there were just too many and too powerful, threats for any group to survive without at least equally as strong combat power. Northern Gun managed this through a combination of geographical location and remnant high technology manufacturing capability. The NGR survived and prospered because it managed to retain 80% of its original Golden Age tech base and manufacturing capability. Using real world examples, we have only to look at countries with comparable populations. Jamaica and Lithuania, with populations of 2.9 and 2.8 million, respectively, both have professional militaries. In fact, according to the CIA World Factbook, Jamaica not only possesses a full time standing Army, Navy and Air Force but also a Cyber Command.

Lazlo, like other magic using communities, could have managed the same feat in the short term without a professional military. However as it grew from huddle collection of refugees and survivors and into a town, then city, then city-state, it would become difficult to the point of impossibility to defend all that territory and people with just a volunteer, adhoc, poorly/inconsistently drilled/trained and not uniformly equipped militia. Can you even begin to imagine the logistical nightmare in keeping such a force supplied with munitions? Or writing an Operations Order (OPORD)? It would be the next best thing to impossible.

In addition to that, consider all the obligations that a nation/state has. For example, the Naval concerns. According to the books, what little info we have mind you, Lazlo depends upon its sea ways. It supposedly has a Navy, not a militia to perform that task. We even know that their standard sidearm for their Navy is the Wilk’s 325 Mariner Pulse Laser Pistol (Mercenary Ops, pg. 103). Well part of a nation/state’s responsibility is to maintain the seaways inside their borders. Part of “maintaining the seaways” includes but is hardly limited to making, updating and publishing charts, marking safe channels, performing freedom of navigation exercises, anti-piracy patrols and search and rescue operations. Those absolutely essential tasks can not be realistically performed by unpaid, untrained, self-equipped volunteers without any sort of formal command structure or standard operating procedures. The very idea is, well, absurd.

Now through in the uniquely Rifts Earth hazards such as monsters, demons, ley-line storms and random rifts opening up. Any sea power, which Lazlo most certainly is, would have to formulate responses to those occurrences. Those responses would have to be, could only be, standardardized policies and procedures. The kind of standard procedures that any Navy would have to be trained in and equipped for on an on-going basis. I think we can all agree that skills that go unused for lengthy periods of time become lost or lessened. That is precisely why constant drilling and training is needed. Constant drilling and training that any militia, whose members have actual careers and jobs outside the militia, simply won’t have the time for as they are too busy (and rightfully so) working their regular jobs to provide for themselves and their families.

On the land and in their air space, Lazlo would also have need for a professional, full time, well drilled and trained military. Monsters and bandits do exist after all. Moreover, ever since the Siege on Tolkeen and the Coalition States demonstrated capacity and will to engage in full scale military operations for the express purpose of genocide and destruction of what they consider to be enemies of humanity, Lazlo would have to be run by blind, deaf and dumb idiots not to have a professional military. If they don’t have one and more importantly, if the CS doesn’t think they have one, that’s a good as an engraved invitation to Emperor Prosek to come invade them. AS if that wasn’t enough, Lazlo’s seers have foreseen the dangers of both the Xiticix and the Minon War. They knew years ahead of time, that both were coming. Just as with the danger of the CS, they would have to be incomparable idiots, sitting atop the highest perch of Mount Incompetent, to not take all precautions possible.

From the video that Kevin S posted about Lazlo and his vision for it, we will see art with billboards proclaiming and reminding people to use magic responsibly. Never mind that we see no such billboards in any of the exclusively tech using nations to use technology responsibly. He also said or at least severely implied that the current methods in the books will be ignored when it comes to learning spells. Spellcasters will no longer be able to simply buy a spell, as listed in Rifts Ultimate Edition, pg. 190. That page makes it plainly clear that yes, mages can and do purchase spells with credits. In fact, spells from levels one through nine are readily available. It is only spells at tenth level and above that are “rarely available”.

What we should see is the seamless integration of high technology and magic. A fully mature and developed level of techno-wizardry. A society where people never lost their starting high PPE base since they have been exposed to magic since literally birth.

Consider the possibilities having high technology and magic offers. What they truly offer and would mean for such a society and city-state. Just one application would be a TW device in their steel/metal smelting/metalworks facilities. A simple device that uses the Create Steel spell, Book of Magic, pg. 127. It allows any ore, from Cobalt (a key ingredient in lithium-ion batteries, as well as glass, paints and inks) to Chromium (USA-G10s anyone?) to literally create metal from just scraps at the rate of 5% per level. That means a low level Techno-Wizard, say 5th level, could create a device that could increase the amount of raw metal by 25%. In hard numbers that means for everyone 100 pounds Lazlo miners or salvagers bring into the metalworks 125 pounds will be produced rather than the loss of ore due to the manufacturing process. Using logic, it would make sense that Lazlo would insist on a much higher level device for any factories related to their military industrial complex. A 10th level device would of course translate to a 50% increase in output. Now add in the final sentence of the spell “In addition there is no need for a smelting facility, machines or work-men, other than those needed to haul and store the finished product”. That means their per person productivity wont just match the best the CS or even NGR has to offer, it will wildly exceed it. However I highly doubt we will see anything like that. Instead we will get another ration of the same silly, crude, non-standardized, ineffectual TW devices we have entirely too much of already.

Speaking of TW devices, we should see that everyone born and raised in Lazlo can use them. What’s more we should see that because they have been using them since birth, they not only retained their high PPE base but that it increased over time as they continued to use TW devices, starting with toy TW water pistols, to TW powered cellphones, to cars and other personal conveyances. We should see that, get rules for that but we won’t or if we do, the rules won’t make sense because again, that involves understanding numbers and being able to take a moment to think about what having high technology and magic actually means.

We should see Lazlo as having an incredible economy. Yes, they just had to absorb refugees from Tolkeen and that is having a drag on their economy but that is a short term effect. Their economy was already strong and getting stronger, thanks to the CS-NG-MI alliance and trade embargo. From Rifts – Aftermath, pg. 53, 77-92; Lazlo’s economy is completely self-sufficient. Thanks to the embargo against everyone the CS terms an “enemy of humanity”, those towns and kingdoms are faced with a choice, acquire Northern Gun and Manistique Imperium goods from third parties, like the Black Market and pay a 20-75% markup OR buy the same goods from Lazlo. Yes, Lazlo doesn’t make a Samson power armor but they do make every civilian good they need…unless of course Rifts-Aftermath is wrong and they aren’t actually self-sufficient. What this all means is that Lazlo’s economy and economic prospects are actually better in 109PA than they were in 104PA, all thanks to the embargo. However I think that will be forgotten, just like the “Republicans” were after their mention in the original Rifts core book or “Source Book – Speed Tribes” were.

We should see more spells but again, they won’t change the equation much, if at all where magic meets high technology on the battlefield.

We will get a few new OCCs.

I hope we won’t get hidden or secret factions or yet another hidden Alien Intelligence. I won’t be surprised if we do though, just disappointed.

There will be some sort of forced “dramatic element” that will make Lazlo seem morally gray. This will be similar but of course not exactly like how attempts are sometimes made to make the CS, despite their genocidal policies, seem “morally gray”. We will not get a Lazlo that can clearly be placed in the “good guy” column for…reasons.

And at over 2000 words, I think that is enough.

AAAAALLLLL of THIS ^^^^^^

I agree with Jaymz agreeing with Toc Rat.


Daniel Stoker