How does the CS survive?

[maeljw]

I'm new to this board (my first post as a matter of fact) but do have a take on the CS not only survive but thrive. I don't believe any of these points have been brought up so heres some points...

1) Fear as a unifying force: Throughout history tyrants and fascist governments have used fear as a weapon to unify there peoples and turn them into slavering warmongers. No better example of this would be than Nazi Germany, the propagandists used the Germans the fears of the German people to blind them to the great evils they were causing. I believe the CS would be in a similar situation, surrounded by enemies and aliens attempting to take what is THEIR land, THEIR lives; and THEIR planet from them. This unifying factor means that they are one true unified force while ....

2) The Coalition's enemies are fragmented: The enemies list the CS has made is long and powerful, Tolkeen (before the fall), FQ (during the war and before the peace treeaty), Lazlo, FoM, etc.. but unlike the CS they lack unity in goals,methods, and even how they view the threat the CS poses(not as much since Tolkeens fall but its part of the point ). United they may have a chance to defeat them, but alone individually they lack the capacity to do anything but prolong any war with the CS. And yes I know the Splugies and Vamps are vastly larger with vastly superior armies but the Splugies have little interest in provoking the CS into using the Nukes it possesses and the Vamps are splintered.

3) Pure Illiteracy vs. Functional Illiteracy/Ignorance: This is something I've done to reason how a technological power such as the CS runs with an incredible Illiteracy rate. Lets face it the CS should not have been able to repair, rebuild, and run its army as effectively as it does(should) with illiterate people at the forefront.. pilots need to read HUDs ... commanders need to read battle plans... doctors need to read medical journals..etc. However as someone works at an internet service provider I know people do not like to read manuals or anything for the most part(present company excepted of course ). So my reasoning is this, all CS citizens are literate to an extant, they know how to read things that are necessary for their day to day duties, but for news and information they just sit in front of their tvs and listen to what they are told (a byproduct of point 1). This of course not only makes the CS more knowledgable but makes it a tad more believable.

Well hope I didn't bore anyone..guess when I make a point I really can go on and on...

[Mech-Viper Prime]

yup state sponsored tv programs

[Zer0 Kay]

I think it goes a little deeper than that, at the same time more shallow...
Sure the CS is admittedly weak magically, but tech shouldn't be underestimated. The Federation was for a very long time peopled by squabbling factions, all too afraid to strike at their hated enemy for fear that a rival would destroy them in a moment of weakness. To an extent, it still is that way, though Alistair has untited most of it, he'd still be in a position of weakness if he launched an attack and say The Three decided they'd be next... being intelligent, they'd most likely intervene. Not necessarily on the behalf of the CS but rather for themselves and what they've built. Tolkeen didn't actually want a war, and were content to just have their own kingdom... they were of little real threat to the CS and hadn't supported terrorist action against the CS {individuals might have sure, but it was far from national policy...}.
In the end though the CS is there and won a relativley bloodless victory over Tolkeen because that's what a writer wants.

Agreed. Kevin will give the CS the occasional black eye, and in future Books he may slow or stop its expansion Plans, but he will NEVER destroy it. That would've been like Gary Gygax getting rid of, say.....all Dungeons. And Dragons.

and thank god Gygax got rid of D&D, Because his Mythus product was abhorrent, and D&D became evolved beyond it's Gygaxian Origins.

Are you talking D&D as the original system or as TSR? If you are refering to it as TSR then Gygax didn't get rid of TSR, TSR got rid of him. As far as it evolving beyond it's origins not until TSR was purchased by WOC/Hasbro, when it mutated into a totally different animal who's name should have been changed. There used to be D&D (easy rules) and AD&D (more flexible but harder rules) if anything the new one is KD&D (flexible but easy enough for a child to understand).

[cornholioprime]

i see alot of other stuff that people overlook just because its the Coalition

1. vanguard
2 human mutants( second class citzens, but most are loyal,just because they arent hunted and are cut some slack, by the cs)

I don't overlook either of those forces.

Real World example: It's impossible for us to protect ourselves in every country, in every way, against terrorism. The same holes that the Terrorists use to get into countries should be happening to the CS on an even larger scale, but never do.

KevSim has us somehow believe that sucessful raids happen on Atlantis almost daily -and they're among the best in the Megaverse at thwarting Magic Foes!!! -yet the CS goes on, year after year, with nary a scratch. Far too many people who 'root' for the CS act as if Psi-Stalkers, Vanguard Protectors, NTSET, and Dog Boys cover every square inch of the CS Super-Cities....which is quite impossible.

[Nekira Sudacne]

i see alot of other stuff that people overlook just because its the Coalition

1. vanguard
2 human mutants( second class citzens, but most are loyal,just because they arent hunted and are cut some slack, by the cs)

I don't overlook either of those forces.

Real World example: It's impossible for us to protect ourselves in every country, in every way, against terrorism. The same holes that the Terrorists use to get into countries should be happening to the CS on an even larger scale, but never do.

KevSim has us somehow believe that sucessful raids happen on Atlantis almost daily -and they're among the best in the Megaverse at thwarting Magic Foes!!! -yet the CS goes on, year after year, with nary a scratch. Far too many people who 'root' for the CS act as if Psi-Stalkers, Vanguard Protectors, NTSET, and Dog Boys cover every square inch of the CS Super-Cities....which is quite impossible.

because Atlantis is amoung the highest profile places and powers in the megaverse and thusly is targeted by those best at breaking in, ect, in the megaverse.

the CS is an insignidicat faction being targeted by other insignificant factions.

[Nekira Sudacne]

because Atlantis is amoung the highest profile places and powers in the megaverse and thusly is targeted by those best at breaking in, ect, in the megaverse.

the CS is an insignidicat faction being targeted by other insignificant factions.

I wouldn't go as far as to say it's a insignificant faction, they have that largest standing army in North America don't they?

Over time(if given by others), the CS will expand and get more people to join there cause and of course go farther(or catch up) with other technology.

significant on one continent on one planet.

the people in atlantis are the people that rule multi-solar system empires.

it's all a matter of scale. the people in atlantis are megaversal powers.


the CS can't really project their power across one continent.

it's a matter of scale.

[Sentinel]

The CS has a steady supply of labor force to build and manufacture. An regular influx of people willing to sign up to the military if it'll get them citizenship.
There is a great deal of knowledge in the secret libraries in Chi-Town and the Black Vault which can be used in the CS's favor.
That said, I've wondered just where all the raw material and precious metals/elements are coming from, and I've come up with story plots on my own to explain things.
The most important element in CS survival is KevSim's need for them to be regular plot element in the game.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't remember about Psi-Ghosts, but HU characters are still affected by electricity for partial damage.
Try walking though a wall with any decent wiring in it, and you might well get zapped.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Either way, one other point to CS survival is their sheer amount of resources. Where the heck they get all of this stuff (St Louis Rift, genuine mining, KS's GrabBag O' Resources, etc.) is left to the individual GMs. Maybe the CS has some means of turning soy or other plant products into MDC armor? Given their sheer amount of land and agriculture, what else are they doing with it all and how else do they have so many resources for a nation their size?

does anyone actully read the books or just go straight to the weapons and occ stuff! the CS has a number of partners in trade, besides who is to say coalition didnt find norad and the base around it and they are just keeping it on the dl, hell after 10+ years no ones know where the black vault is.

[Killer Cyborg]

I get the idea that the CS gets a ton of resources from the elemental plane of metal (quasi elemental)

I said the same thing. There's no other explanation for a nation or group their size being able to **** away so much armor and robotics without blinking an eyelash.

nanofactories.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

did anybody think that the cs may have just stockpiled stuff in bunkers, dont take alot of soldiers to guard fulled bunkers of a company size

[grandmaster z0b]

Firstly, Duke I do like your ideas, but I won't be changing my time line just yet as it would be a bit too much work, but I have already increased the population of North America. That dosen't mean that there are human colonies every 20 miles, just that the urban centres like Chi Town have much bigger populations. This makes the wilderness still wild but the cities more dense, overcrowded and dirty.

Anyway, in regards to this thread I would assume that throughout it's history the CS must have suffered from many of these attacks and it's just another thing that doesn't make it into the books or isn't thought of.

However just because a magic terrorist can attack the CS that dosen't mean they can take them out. It really doesn't seem that different to the USA, they are by far the most powerful country in the world at the moment with the best tech but they still cannot protect themselves from a few crazy people with simple fertilizer bombs. I can see a Tolkeen retribution squad or the FoM pulling off an attack on the scale of 9/11 but just like the real world that dosen't cause the empire to fall, infact it just makes it more p*ssed off.

Sheer numbers and resources are what the CS has on it's side and traditionally these are what will eventually win wars.

[Borast]

Simple...

Writer fiat.

[Killer Cyborg]

The reason is simply because the Coalition is loosely based on.....nothing.

You can say that they are based on Nazi Germany of WWII, but that's not really true.

Now most of you are going to say, "Does he even own a Rifts book?"

The CS is a simple plot device. Something to unite players, a common enemy, nothing more.....unfortunately.

If the same events happened today, we would all rally around the same CS, pro-human, anti-alien government that we constantly fight on a monthly or weekly basis.

Um, in the original book it seems pretty obvious that the CS classes were set up to be played, and not just as renegades.
Am I the only one who's characters aren't constantly battleing against the CS? I mean, we've clashed a few times... but most of the adventures I've been in and run have been against other stuff.

[Jesterzzn]

The reason is simply because the Coalition is loosely based on.....nothing.

You can say that they are based on Nazi Germany of WWII, but that's not really true.

Now most of you are going to say, "Does he even own a Rifts book?"

The CS is a simple plot device. Something to unite players, a common enemy, nothing more.....unfortunately.

If the same events happened today, we would all rally around the same CS, pro-human, anti-alien government that we constantly fight on a monthly or weekly basis.

Um, in the original book it seems pretty obvious that the CS classes were set up to be played, and not just as renegades.
Am I the only one who's characters aren't constantly battleing against the CS? I mean, we've clashed a few times... but most of the adventures I've been in and run have been against other stuff.

Most of the adventures I played in pre-uber tech (aka after NGR) North America, fell into one of two catagories. Group of adventures pitted against monsters or CS, or Group of CS soldiers pitted against monsters or adventurers.

[dark brandon]

Um, in the original book it seems pretty obvious that the CS classes were set up to be played, and not just as renegades.
Am I the only one who's characters aren't constantly battleing against the CS? I mean, we've clashed a few times... but most of the adventures I've been in and run have been against other stuff.

We have had a few run ins. Taken a few jobs against them. Out in the open area, when we run into a few CS troops, it's usually a live/let live policy. Everyone is or can at least pass as human and concidering they are on usually more "pressing" buisness we just end up passing by.

[Kalinda]

Killer cyborg wrote:

Am I the only one who's characters aren't constantly battleing against the CS? I mean, we've clashed a few times... but most of the adventures I've been in and run have been against other stuff.

I don't think I've ever played/ran a game where the group deliberately attacked the CS. the occasional run in yes, but theres so much out there to do (and fight.) that attacking the CS has never come up.

Besides, the rule of thumb is 'never **** off the guys who can call in air strikes.'

[Mech-Viper Prime]

yup, as long as you're useful to them and them be useful to you

[Borast]

Never tick-off the guy that can call in an airstrike, eh?

Depends on how you're situated and response time.

If you have air defences that can take out a full sqadron of SAMs in jig time...why not?

Two glitterboys per responding SAM should do!

[Mech-Viper Prime]

since most would call in about what is going on so you might have less then two minutes

[Kalinda]

Never tick-off the guy that can call in an airstrike, eh?

Depends on how you're situated and response time.

If you have air defences that can take out a full sqadron of SAMs in jig time...why not?

Two glitterboys per responding SAM should do!

Assuming you have between four and twelve GBs at your beck and call, great.

of course even if you take all the SAMs out in the first few seconds, the fact that they suddenly dropped out of the radio net means that the next set of reinforcements will be A: much bigger. B: much more wary.

granted, each base has a finite number of troops they can send out, but considering how fast most of the CS air assets move, they can easily redeploy some very large units.

and glitterboys only move 60mph.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Never tick-off the guy that can call in an airstrike, eh?

Depends on how you're situated and response time.

If you have air defences that can take out a full sqadron of SAMs in jig time...why not?

Two glitterboys per responding SAM should do!

how soon people forget about the coalition planes

[Colt47]

Well, I mean everyone talks about taking down the CS, but then what? After taking down the Regime you just end up with a huge number of now very frightened and xenophobic people without a government they trust, and the number of horror stories they've heard through CS propaganda is going to take forever to filter out.

Really, the best way to take down the CS is to just plain go insane. No I'm not joking. An insane character is hellishly difficult to divine simply because his behavior is so erratic. Yes, even psionic seers will have high hell trying to figure out what you are doing. Especially when you're version of an Ice cream truck is a Naruni heavy hover tank. Oh yeah, and that banana factory run by monkeys is actually a SAMAS manufacturing facility. And what the heck do flying pidgeons have to do with anything? It's a TEA PARTY!

CS Officer: So, what have you found out about the terrorists?

CS Mind Melter: They are driving an ice cream truck to a banana factory run by monkeys to have a tea party...

CS Officer:

[Library Ogre]

I'll point out that, while people love to point to Sixth Sense as the power that will save the CS, there's one that's a lot more useful in the planning stages: Clairvoyance. Given the number of Psi-stalkers and Dog-boys, it's safe to say that at least 50%, if not 75% of the CS's psychics are psychic sensitives, and the population is about 25% psychic... that's a LOT of psychics.

Historically speaking, clairvoyant dreams are one of the most common forms of "documented" psychic phenomenon; I don't see much reason that this would change with the CoR. If suddenly a good chunk of your psychic population starts having ominous dreams about a certain date, and you've made psychics an active part of your military, you listen to them.

[Lucas]

now parts of this i have to agree to, and others i really don't the CS survives because it can basically kill anything giving the prep time...

mages that do that immune to energy are shot with the pump pistols, or missiles, then there is the vanguard who are alot more potent then ppl give them credit for. also do not forget the burbs in general and all the creatures that live there a just want to be left alone.

then there is the most important thing out there the players.....do you really want the largest population in the area to collapse....think about that sometimes its better the enemy you know then the enemy you don't

[KLM]

Four Alien Intelligences are the rough equal of a small evil
pantheon.

First, their presence will be felt by psykers all around
the continent, because it is their nature. This makes
spotting them a bit more convenient by Psi Corps.
Even predicting them.

Second, Psi Stalkers CAN cause them unconvenient
moments, so if like a squad of them is slicing the
AI's hide, I bet he will not be able to use any magic,
psi, etc. Oh, maybe at the same time, please save
vs. like two or three dozen Biomanipulation attacks
(again, psi corps). That is just one platoon, with PSI
on their armor.

Third, if against all the above those guys are really
threating the existence of the CS, in the worst possible
case, the sploogies would think about enforcing this
"Earth is a free trade zone" thing...

Adios
KLM

[Library Ogre]

Don't neglect the psi-nullifiers and nega-psychics, who would be putting the kibosh on a lot of the magic these AIs would be tossing. Probably getting aneurysms from the ISP drain, but they'd be blocking spells.

[KLM]

So, probably this scenario end like one AI down, and the
others "They killed Kenny" leave.

After all, sometimes even an AI can have a bad day, and endanger
its almost infinite existence for just a brief one or two day fun of
smearing humans...

Adios
KLM

[rat_bastard]

Rifter 37 has by far the best answers for "why doesn't one of a million magic cheap shots take out the CS?".

Even if you are not one to collect Rifters this is one to get for any CS involved plot (the CS support vehicles being the second one to get).

In short The RCSG came up with a device that helps ward Large buildings against supernatural intrusion and also details various research fields taken by the RCSG.

It also gives an idea of what kind of guns are mounted on the outside of chi town, whuch helps dispel the "why don't dragons teleport outside of chi-town and rip holes in the wall?".

It however does not explain why so many believe near-immortal egotistical selfish genius creatures like dragons are involved in plots that require them to act like chimps with downs syndrome.

[Library Ogre]

Remember, Magic Raph, that there's another aspect to the Psi-Nullifiers... they're not alone. They provide the defense against magical and psychic attacks, while the attack comes from the thousands of soldiers present in Chi-town.

One of the main problems an AI faces in this is that, while he's incredibly powerful, he can only do so many things at once. He has, perhaps, 12 actions per round... same as 3 1st level grunts. Sure, his actions are vastly more powerful, but he's not facing 3, 30, or even 300 grunts... at best, he's facing 3000, and unless he can defend himself against all 12000 attacks, he's going to have huge problems defending himself.

[Library Ogre]

Oupsy it was Ai and not Si, my bad
Anyhow, attacking Chi town directly is madness

I agree. But that's the scenario that was presented.

But 12000 grunts? how can such a big number all shot in the same time against something that goes here and there in the middle of their troops?

I said nothing about 12000 grunts. I said 3000 grunts, who have, in total, 12,000 attacks (4 attacks each, assuming each is level 1 without Boxing). Mind you, this is a fairly low number. Fort Pinnacle, in Lone Star, has 35,000 troops at the base, and is only a few years old and is relatively small... certainly not a fortress-city.

Let's says, it goes right in the middle of a 200 000 soldier army. at max, 6-10 grunts can react to it, the others will only hit their allies, plus, it is fast, and small(metamorphisis technique) so they will shoot mostly yheir allies, then, it leaves once again! In these kind of situation, the action is happening so fast, that the grunts won't even know what is affecting them, and communication is down " it is there come everybody" "NO! it is here" "No no it is over there!!". If a AI just concentrates around military bases they can dish out everything easly with these tactics, plus
If they are enough in a goodmod, they will attack chi-town via subtlety and using constant disguise.

And once it moves, it's exposed to another group of soldiers... and that assumes they DO change form, and CAN; many have an aversion to doing so because it is beneath them, and some (such as, IIRC, vampire intelligences) cannot change into human-sized creatures.

Further advancement would be using, demons like diversions, summoning stuffs and using dead grunts as skeletons. The possibilities are endless and always the Ai will have the high ground, and the knowledge, because the only thing the CS will know: something powerfull is attacking us, whe do not know where, how, with what, or even what it is. Quite difficult to fight something you do not know about. (see aura will only tell it is smething major, that's all, oh and quite evil)

The Coalition will know more than this. Once again, they have psychics who will keep them informed of incoming problems, and the involvement of powerful supernatural entities will only increase the clarity of Clairvoyant and other psychic powers.

[dark brandon]

A fortress has many many many problems: such as walls, and rooms, and more more stuff, no open area to mass shoot the meanies. And, you forget regeneration, 2D6X10 000 MDC, take alot to kill it, resoration, healing. And I do not talk about items.

Depends. I always envisioned CS cities to look like a normal city, just enclosed.

Yeah, AI will not destroy CS, but can severly damge it. On long terme they could. Remember they live since a long long time. They have plenty of ressources to play with. Multiple diversion based on a long time, to strain the ressources, entry, destruction. Quite efficient strategy.
PLUS
the AI just need to do minor damage(like destroying two three fortress) to get all kind of ther allies attention like FOM to use them to create more diversion. Exponantial.

True, and in this case why would any AI be interested in CS? Most AI's that know about CS tend to ignore them because they are small potatoes. It would be very effective of someone to drive 50 miles and kill a squirrel and take his winter stash of nuts, or he can drive to the store and buy some.

Ai have a 3D6+12 IQ, the BEST the CS will be able to come up with, they will have better.

Smarter doesn't mean you can't make mistakes.

Let's say your info arrival is quick, the response is slower. Do you know a bit about military communication procedure? Communication needs to go throught many channels, actions needs mobilisation, wich takes time. Time, time time time time and more time. During that, the AI using small number(quality over quantity) have a great reaction time. The time their is a respond from CS they will be gone, and already hundreds of miles away wreaking havoc somewhere else.

Depends again. In a superfortress where everyone is paranoid, they probably have a group that is constantly on duty ready to fly at a moments notice. With superior knowledge of the layout, responce time could be very quick. Within minutes.

Attack is not just concentratein one area multiple attacks, constantly moving, this is a military nightmare. Psy problems? go astral, I do not know if you remember what the kraken does when he goes astral but it is intense. Cs aren't robots, they are subject to fear, confusion and disorder. Plus, they don't know the full extent of the AI power. There is no psi, spell or other that gives the info of all they can do. Nulifier have weakness!! It is sure and certain the AI's will know about them. count on it. They are not blind or stupid.

Well, AI's are not impervious to things like Mind Control, Bio-manipulation and other effects of mind. They may only need a 1 to save, but laws of average (1 out of a hundred with multiple saves required per attack) says they will fail.

There is flaws like in everything Mark hall, but the AI invasion IS quite efficient.

Effective, but not feasible. It'd probably be more effective to have Syphen the back dragon god (name?) come in and use his Dieific power of destroy land or something.

[Library Ogre]

Craivoyance have limits, (gm discretion). Dang, if it was so absolute, everybody would know everything about everybody, wich is not the case.

It has its limits but, again, if you read the power, they're not horridly constraining in events of this size.

When you're trying to predict a single individual, the example is of a car wreck. You don't know if she's only hurt, or is actually killed, but you know that something serious has happened. That's for a single person, presumably with an emotional tie but without a large supernatural component (she was hit by a car, and nothing indicates it's a demonic car or something). This is a single psychic, trying to find out about a friend.

Look at an invasion by an Alien Intelligence. Huge amounts of death connected to massive supernatural evil. In this case, you have thousands of psychics (again, I refer you to the small city of Fort Pinnacle; 98,000 people, civilian and military, putting it at a conservative estimate of 24500 psychics, of which perhaps 1 in 20 - 1225 -will have Clairvoyance... psychic sensitives are noted as being the most common kind... and this is a small city) who will have emotional attachments to many people. This event is going to stick out in psychic visions for a long time, and there will be a LOT of visions about it.

An out-and-out assault by any kind of force, but especially by a supernaturally evil force, is going to provide a lot of psychic reconnaissance.

There is flaws like in everything Mark hall, but the AI invasion IS quite efficient.

Indeed it is. There's a lot of power that they could do if they wanted to invade. However, I think you're overestimating the value of it, and underestimating the value of psychic foresight and a fully mobilized culture.

[Library Ogre]

Psi nullifier: disrupts what is 3 m. from him or DIRECTLY against him. Point is, smash his face,shoot from afar and more. Not very usefull. against something that small,quick and efficient.

Page 67, second column: [b]Note:[/b} The nullification power is a reflex action that respondds to all (even multiple) psionic and magic attacks directed at him (including area affect spells) as well as any unleashed within 10 feet of him.

If the psychic is within the area of effect, he's going to act to disrupt it, automatically.

They won't attack in daylight, detection is quite harder.

Not terribly; the CS seems capable of lighting up the area around the fortress cities pretty effectively, and if it's inside... well, then you just turn on the lights.

mobility:fast tactical response, initiative, movement, and overall efficiency, not lething the time to fully use a preventive measure(clairvoyance permits to know, but limited, not what or how, plus reactive combat quick response does not let the time to clairvoyance )

Again, look at clairvoyance again. It's pretty detailed from a tactical standpoint. The person knows about what will happen, about when, to about whom. Furthermore, teleportation has a major problem... mess up, and you're stuck in a wall.

Planning: terrain knowledge, invasion plan, procedures, troop knowledge

Where are you going to get this knowledge?

Fear and confusion: fast action from many points creates desorganisation.

And communication reduces it; the CS is going to be able to communicate that there ARE problems, and even their nature (psi-stalkers, upon getting its scent, have a minimum of 30% chance if its in disguise and hiding, and that's at a range of 1000 feet; Dog Boys are a minimum of 1000 feet and 62% to figure out what it is).

KNOWLEDGE!!!: remember: possessing includes the knowledge of the person!

This is wrong.

I'm not saying it will be an easy victory for the CS, or even that it is a sure victory... but it will not be the easy victory for the AI that you are presenting it as, nor is it a sure victory.

[Library Ogre]

I notice that you're playing the military as if it has an IQ of 10.

[Library Ogre]

Cause also during the week(storm, fog, ilusory terrain, heavy air:

All fail initially because of psi-nullifier involvement. Now, he can intentionally overspend to compensate (he's got the PPE to do it), but that also tips his hand to the fact that this is a major push.

Furthermore, in order to cast these spells, he'd have to get within range of the installation's defenders; a dog boy has a sensing range of 1000 feet per level for beings of the power of an alien intelligence, meaning a 5th level dog boy needs to get within a mile of him. At a 10 mile range on summoning a storm (the best range there), he's going to be pinpointed and identified LONG before he can do anything in his further plan... and his ruses will be identified, since he's sending magical constructs (i.e. spells) at a installation crawling with dog boys and psi-stalkers.

Result: Military knows the threat is large, and either calls in reinforcements or hits him with a large volley of short-range missiles.

result the militry did not sleep much and are a bit tired, but no reinforcement because the threat is not big enough, nothing major, and the demons who seem to be the main cause dies, a giant demon(major demon+spell giant) was seen not very far, reconnaissance troops did not find anything, but mainly the J day:

Again, you have the military huddling in its barracks, not paying attention to intelligence. With a force this size, there's going to be a lot of intelligence, and with an AI running things, it's scent will be very prominent... overwhelmingly so. They will know that something is up.

, illusory terrain(boosted), , heavy air, summon and control storm, shadow wall X4. warped space, world bizarre. wall of wind. To create a sate of confusion. Yet the psy predicted it, but it still has a great effect on some soldiers and mainly the civilian who got more and more scared. Army is getting alert, but the conditions are lousy and does not permit goodvisibility(rain, thunder, heavy air)(night because of weakness)

Again, many of these are blocked by psi-nullifiers or nega-psychics unless he spends more PPE. Many of the "civilians" in this highly militarized culture are likely to have some military training.

So the AI cast impenetrable wall of force in the air, further from the city so the army cast missiles at it, without avail(wall) so air troop are send, most of them get disorganized against shadow wall and wall of winds. Demons(the whole bunch) are coming on the other side of the city, so other troops are send to defend.

Why are they shooting missiles at a wall that appears in the air miles away, when demons are coming from the other direction?

Then I do the rest short and sweet. casting of disharmonize and havoc(+energize spell) causes more problems. The AI turns invisible during a volley of missiles against him,

Wasting an action that could otherwise have been used to dodge or defend himself... invisibility doesn't help against modern optics.

and teleport in a known area in the base. metamorphosis human, puts on the helm and the mace.

How does he know this area in the base? How does every dog boy and psi-stalker in the base not automatically go "on point", because even if he's using Mask ISP and PPE and a variety of other powers, he still stinks like an alien intelligence?

Except the psy where trouble indeed, big trouble, at a certain point he managed to get paralised a couple of times, but then teleported, waited, then struck again.

Realize that if he gets injured at any point, psi-stalkers feast on him like Hall boys on a Thanksgiving dinner. That removes 400-700 P.P.E. per psi-stalker, and at least half of its ISP (halved for each psi-stalker feeding).

You completely ignore the effects of psi-nullifiers (who are 1 out of every 200 psi-stalkers, and 1 out of every thousand humans) meaning, assuming the "human" psychics are half human, half psi-stalker, there will be about 14 or 15 psi-nullifiers at the base; that's a substantial amount of reflexive negation, and doesn't include the few nega-psychics who might be on hand. All 20,000 dog boys will know where the AI is at all times if they are 3rd level or higher (that assumes a base of about half a mile diameter, which you seem to be doing, since you're talking about confined spaces). Your active psychic counter-measures are limited to a few paralysis shots. Why go with paralysis when instead you can use Pain, which will disrupt thought? You also seemed to miss that your vulnerabilities to light would play heavily against you in fighting humans... they prefer lighted spaces (though with technology, they can overcome that), and use a lot of laser weapons.

I don't have the conversion book handy to look up all the numbers necessary for this, but you seem to overlook quite a few things in order to make your side seem stronger.

[KLM]

How did the CS survive?
Theories?

"Author Fiat".

Actually, since the opposition is - by large - as flawed as the CS...

Adios
KLM

[dark brandon]

But overall...I was estonished...I thought it would be a hassle, and that the first Ai would retreat, but finally....it was intense. Yeah the clairvoyance worked against the pre-attacks, his main chaos plan was foiled, but the rest was just rip and shredusing quick manoeuvering tactics, and it was nothing the psis could really do. Especially, mainly when encountering psys, the AI would take a small distance an shoot rockets at them. The theory is now a law: "when in closed(limited) space, number is useless!!!!"

You've completely underplayed and underestimated the CS in nearly every aspect, and failed to take into account how a military organization set up like the CS is very effective.

[dark brandon]

Casting problema: by becoming a moving target. cast spell. move. cast spel move. Just a couple of soldiers won't work you need a batch. and that does not move super swiftly.
recon teams are just plain useless. Your givings extra bonus kills to the Ai.
And a big troop detachment will be spotted easily by the AI who will evidently move away.

There are so many things wrong with what you've written it would take too long to point them all out. The initial problems start from the very beginning on how he is gaining info on the complex. Beyond this, Recon teams aren't used to take anything down. That's why they're called recon...for reconnaissance team. See, as big and bad as your AI is, he's still going to be subjected to search and find. CS don't hold cooped up waiting in their base...they have perimeters they constantly scan/search/explore. These teams are made up of things such as dog-boys and psy-stalkers. Their job would be to spot and locate the AI, not hard to do. And there isn't anything the AI has that can guarantee that he will be completely anonymous or that he can elude recon teams.

If your AI is acting in such a way as you're portraying him, they'd simply find him, and assault him with a barrage of psychic attack. His Auto-mind block auto-defense would jump up...which would cut out his 6th sense...then he'd have a rain of missiles and a barrage of fire from miles away (CS has range, they aren't going to go Toe to toe with this thing), in fact the CS strategy is to keep their distance. He may escape, he may not. Those spells, like Invisibility superior and impenetrable wall are not instant casts, and unfortunately it may already be too late.

Conclusion: Yes, There is a factor of error that is big, since the base was quickly made. Longer preparation would be a more efficient test subject to deliver to science.
BUT You underestimate AI's, most powerfull beings there is (hard to beat Lord splyncryythm Lord of the Deep or the Three, that are all AI's)
But I guess, a bit of warfare psychology wouldn't do much bad either. Humans, psychics and dog boys are subject to fear and more. Remember the story in FOM book, of a troop that get's obliterated by shadow demons? and how they panick? Imagine how they must feel in their guts, before such a massive evil presence, that rips everyhing in almost every stoke and taht seems indesctrutible??? They aren't machines.

No one is underestimating the AI, you're simply underestimating and underplaying the CS.

Yeah, there are flaws, for sure. Like in everything. Including Cs, Like said, the probability that the AI makes an error is incredibly low, compared to the hundreds of mistakes humans will do in this apocalyptic situation. Especially since military tactics are ALL based upon procedures (former military, I know my shi** about it. They don't train you to think but to follow orders, same with the CS. When procedure fails, end is near. Unless a super commander that when he falls the rest falls because the commandment is fractionned in the platoons)

You fail to take into consideration, a nation that has been fighting supernatural monsters and demons for 100 years or so probably has protocols and procedures for a teleporting enemies.

You should also take in account a little better the functionning of a military organisation. Military defense tactices, are supprisigly easy to get down, once you got throught the main defense(outer wall). The execution of orders are completely useless against such quick moving target. Each couple meelee round(around 30 seconds, 1 minute) the Ai moves to another place. I wich anybody good luck to have such a speed reaction time, PLUS, send the troops, PLUS fight it off in 5 seconds WOW, you can only be god. TO expand the width of the field of covering means to diminish the concentration of troops.

But you've made the CS walls too easy to take down. That's the thing. Nextly, CS has a highly mobile troops, and troops trained to take down enemies to seemingly pop-in from literally nowhere. They don't need huge reaction speed for teleport every minute.

PLUS my main point here against your critics: it seems, like you imagine the Ai like a static figure that can be surrounded everywhere and anywhere while being shot, crippled and more without moving.
Personally, I find, that the situation is a win for the AI, yes, it was not easy, but still a win. Well, except for the two AI's plus one who has two bodies in the same dimension. So, three. That, is another story that's a most definitively easy win, considering the two ther are summoners that can summmon volcanoes, tornadoes and more (summon and con
trol element) from a long range.

AI isn't a static figure, but (in game mechanics) he still has to follow the basic rules.

CS wont' attack him blindly. In fact while popping in and out and around this base, he may find he's probably getting less and less resistance. Not because they are all dead or give up, but because they are formulating a plan. Add a bit of clairvoyances, a team of highly mobile units and it wouldn't be too hard to set up a trap for this AI.

Just, say, for example he does make it in. CS knowing with what they are dealing with are going to radio for help (IE a super-powerful monster). Call time is usually 30 mins, perhaps faster. In this time, the CS at the post are going to have their psychic with clairvoyances figure where this AI will pop in next (During this time of course the AI is wreaking havok). With their knowledge of psionics, they can (again) assault the AI with psionics kicking up his mind block. With their knowledge, they've set a trap. In 10 min, with a pressure on him, he will teleport here. So, the send in a bunch of troops in this area ready to take him down, or they lay a trap to blow him up. With his auto-mind block up...he won't have his 6th sense to warn him about the trap.

[Hotrod]

What would a supernatural power gain from attacking the CS? By and large, they stay away from ley lines and nexuses. They may pick up some slaves, but the benefits would not justify the cost in minions and personal risk. There are easier pickings all over the continent.

I think it's safe to say that from a storytelling point of view, true weapons of mass destruction aren't a good thing. How interesting of a plot is it when everyone fires nukes (or the magic equivalent) at each other and all major powers are destroyed? There's no real confrontation, no heroism, no battles.

That's the problem with doing mass destruction: what remains usually isn't worth having.

[Library Ogre]

First of all, I see you are from Quebec, so English may not be your first language. However, it is a language you are familiar with. Please make an effort at making your posts more legible. These are very difficult to read.

Fior detection
If not the good old possession of an AI: completely unknown to outsiders (except to the possessed who will have memory blanks)

I have no idea what you are attempting to say.

impenetrable wall of force : oopsy:shimmering haha my bad...but...clairvoyance no? they know it is him the real threat no??
PLusthey should technically know the demons are diversion (claivoyance) if it is as you say, evidently.

Again, I have no idea what you are attempting to say.

nullifier: only spells directly against him

Read my rebuttal of this. I'm about 9 hours away from my books right now, but the 3rd column, just after the "Note" of Psi-nullifiers makes it clear that spells for which they are in the area of effect are likewise nullified, not just spells cast directly against them.

FEED ON THE AI!!!! whas that a joke? you need to capture and hurt it....now good luck on capturing the teleport! (one actions to jump of it, another to grapple, another to hurt, and another to sap....4 actions? good luck)

I believe it is if they make an injury... and, as you said, he would be paralyzed at some point.

Did I write light? sorry it's daylight weakness

In that case, you chose AIs specifically who had no exploitable weaknesses.

Invisibility not specified wich. my guess: superior, we are talking about an AI, would be so lame, if it was limited invisibility. And does the job against most of the troops

Most automatic invisibility powers are assumed to be limited invisibility.

And I think I fail to understand that one: dodge??? Dodge! he ahs 110 000 MDC!!! he does not need to dodge. god. A volley of missiles?? You need around 4000 mini-missiles(with average damage) in one shot Like the Ai will stay and say go ahead doodles! (if not teleport to a safe distance and restoration) and it won't even be killed!(need to kill the AI essence, wich is an impossible feat for only psy stalkers)

They have 20,000 mechanized infantry; 4000 mini-missiles isn't that hard to manage. 4000 medium range missiles isn't a stretch.

Casting problema: by becoming a moving target. cast spell. move. cast spel move. Just a couple of soldiers won't work you need a batch. and that does not move super swiftly.

If you're casting anything over 5th level, you're taking 2 actions, which is time for the AI to be attacked and disrupted, and its location to be reported. If you're limiting it to things under 5th level, you've got pretty much unlimited castings (given the PPE on this thing... provided psi-stalkers haven't gotten at it), but it's very weak in attacks.

recon teams are just plain useless. Your givings extra bonus kills to the Ai.
And a big troop detachment will be spotted easily by the AI who will evidently move away.

A recon team with a 5th level dog boy needs to get within a mile; if its a 3rd level dog boy, its within half a mile. Recon teams wouldn't even have to be specially made. They would be standard operating procedure around a base of any size, much less one this huge. An AI moving into the area would be noticed by people going missing.

Hallway and corridors, you know many of them that can provide 20 000 troops to shoot on a small target in the same time? Ishhhh. In a normal corridor, max 5 people(10 if on the other side) can shoot, the other willl only shoot on their friens. In one meelee, the AI has killed all ten.

Solution for the CS: pull out of the corridors.

PLus: ilusory spells, create problems for most of the troops. They won't fool the psy or mecha, that is evident(safe fog and storm) but the main troops will lost alot of efficiency.

A single shot from a rail gun destroys every illusion (since its contact with iron).

[KLM]

I suggest everyone, that before trying such scenarios,
run a few games where the players ARE the high ranking
CS officers with reasonably generous access to resources
(be it manpower, dogpower, PSI-corps and of course
hardware) to design such a defense.

You will be suprised how effective the CS could be, with
a little extrapolation (OK, sometimes a bit of canon has
to go, since it clearly nonsense, like the infamous SoT
thingie)...

Adios
KLM

[dark brandon]

For the nulli:(I have once gain the book right under my nose) : page 67 of psyscape. paragraph two " cancel or diminish most psi-powers or magic spells used itin his diruption range".Plus a couple of lines earlier:"magic from an attack against the Psi-Nullifier"
And the other magic disruption is within casting range.
1-"Most"+ "attack against". Maybe I am wrong. But it looks like zone magic who are non-offensive work. Most, I guess lvl 12-13-14 spells will
work.

Does the psi-nullifier make a save vs. the spell? then it is considered an "attack".

Spells are not so usefull when you can do 2d6X10 damage per attack(mace of eylor that adds strength damage)

Even doing this damage, and using Deadboy armor, you'll still on average have to hit him about 2 times to kill 1 deadboy.

The possession thing: In conversion book, in the possession section from ther AI, it is writtent that when it possesses someone. It has an access to all the memory, plus is completely undectectable. Except by the possessed who will have blanks in his memory(when the AI takes control).

Conversion book pg 207

6) The ACT of possession is instant and completely unknown/invisible to everyone except the intended victim

Does not say they are undetectable. In fact See Aura will reveal the person to be possessed.

12) although the entity is aware of everything the person experiences, it does NOT know what that person is thinking, nor does it gain the person's past memories or skills

No, he doesn't gain access to all those memories or skills.

The missile mass attack: you need to pin him down. teleport:instant.
Reaction: the thing with reaction, is precisely the distanc between each teleport is the lenght of it. let'S say, one kilometer, to go their on a normal speed takes around 3-4 minutes.

Depends. Medium range move at 1200 mph. If they move in say 2 miles, it would only take an action for them to reach. 1 mile is out of distance for nearly all magical spells.

dark Brandon: good job. Excellent tactic.
BUT having the book in my lap: Page 121 Rift main book. What is intesting is the example given:
"it is unpredictable and can not be turned ona nd off like la light bulb. Sometimes it works (if the roll is under the base skill) and sometimes it does not (whent he roll is above the base skill)
The danger is clear, but the rest...some hints, nothing more. The glimse can be at any time "The psychic has no way of knowing"
Now the " to the GMs note": "Remember, these are brief glimses of possible future, not a motion picture"
So, it is a good try, but useless, since the unprecise nature of clairvoyance. It was probably made to avoid power abuse from it.

I bold the part you left out that tells you how and when it's turned off/on. For all intents and purposes, there is no reason the way I suggested it would work couldn't work. About the only thing you could argue is the time frame, but even that, it still allows enough time to allow there to be a change in the future.

of course he has the advantage of recognizing the potential danger as it begins to unfold and may be able to avoid it, stop it or change the outcome

reinforcement: depends. If an important, base, or close to big fortresses, yes, reinforcement will be quick. But if a remote one. Reinforcement will vary in size, and time will be quite longer.

All bases are important, and CS takes them very seriously. To lose a base is to lose hold on territory. They won't let a base fall just because they don't think it's important. If anything they fight tooth and nail just because they don't want the smudge of having been defeated. Distance may vary, but like all good encampents, they will be within distance for reinforcments, unless possitioned out west, and in this case they won't have quite so many troops.

Recon team: sorry, I was unclear. Yes, it is obvious hat the dog boy's will detect the guy. But to launch missiles, you need to move he troops. Medium missiles, are obvious when incoming in such a massive quantity, plus, can't be all concentrated in one spot, most will lose efficiency, by blasting beside. thr delay bewteen each "boom" will be enough time to escape.

They won't be in between when they all hit at relitivly the same time. True you'll be getting secondary blasts from some of the missiles, but they all will do their damage.

In my mind, the way the AI has been acting, he'll probably survive the initial bombardment of missiles...but in the end, the base will have survived, and the AI will have teleported back to his home world thinking to himself "What was I thinking going in there like that". What's more if the AI insisted on using physical strikes, few CS will have been killed. Simply put, when attacking CS soldiers have the option (and will use it) to dodge.

[Colt47]

Why bother with direct confrontation? It'd be so much easier just to spoil all the food heading towards the CS cities. No one can survive longer then a month without food, and with as many people as there are in the CS, a major food shortage will definitely hurt them bad in the long run.

[rat_bastard]

Why bother with direct confrontation? It'd be so much easier just to spoil all the food heading towards the CS cities. No one can survive longer then a month without food, and with as many people as there are in the CS, a major food shortage will definitely hurt them bad in the long run.

And you think this has not occurred to the CS? Lone star has some details on the CS food supply and aftermath has some details on how tolkeen resistance fighters are attacking the CS's food supplies.

[Library Ogre]

Yup, english is my first language, but only spoken. I tend to sometimes, write like I would in french, but is not always...understanble, my bad.

No problem.

For the nulli:(I have once gain the book right under my nose) : page 67 of psyscape. paragraph two " cancel or diminish most psi-powers or magic spells used itin his diruption range".Plus a couple of lines earlier:"magic from an attack against the Psi-Nullifier"
And the other magic disruption is within casting range.
1-"Most"+ "attack against". Maybe I am wrong. But it looks like zone magic who are non-offensive work. Most, I guess lvl 12-13-14 spells will
work.

And, once again, the third column of their description (I cannot remember the page, but it's under the picture, on the right hand side, on the bottom of the page... I believe it is the last paragraph) SPECIFICALLY includes area of effect attacks. They do not have to be targeted, just in the area where magic will happen.

Teleportation matter: instant at will. meaning one action.

One action, yes. Others will have a chance to act before they do.

The possession thing: In conversion book, in the possession section from ther AI, it is writtent that when it possesses someone. It has an access to all the memory, plus is completely undectectable. Except by the possessed who will have blanks in his memory(when the AI takes control).

And more recently published possession rules (Dragons and Gods) say that they do not. Furthermore, even while possessing someone, they will smell of demon (and powerful demon, if the AI is doing the possession), meaning every Dog Boy in the area will know that SOMEONE is a demon, leading to a search. It will limit the effectiveness of their search.

The missile mass attack: you need to pin him down. teleport:instant.
Reaction: the thing with reaction, is precisely the distanc between each teleport is the lenght of it. let'S say, one kilometer, to go their on a normal speed takes around 3-4 minutes.

So, it is a good try, but useless, since the unprecise nature of clairvoyance. It was probably made to avoid power abuse from it.

Again, that's one person using the power. Let's say, of the 30,000 psychics in the base, 10% have that power (this would include others who are not classed as "psychics" because they have minor psychic abilities). 3000 people all getting psychic visions of the same event, each seeing different parts of the same movie. Even if each only sees 1 melee worth, that's still more than 3 hours of movie, which will give you a pretty clear idea of what's going on.

Recon team: sorry, I was unclear. Yes, it is obvious hat the dog boy's will detect the guy. But to launch missiles, you need to move he troops. Medium missiles, are obvious when incoming in such a massive quantity, plus, can't be all concentrated in one spot, most will lose efficiency, by blasting beside. thr delay bewteen each "boom" will be enough time to escape.

How good are his reflexes? If he's within range for weather magic (10 miles, max), a medium range missile can, IIRC (I'm without books, at the moment) cover 10 miles in about 20 seconds. That assumes he's watching for incoming missiles, not engaging the distraction.

[rat_bastard]

How is speed weapon going to allow you to kill 11 dead boys a round?

I'm not clear on that one.

[rat_bastard]

Ok so are we talking about a Alien Intelligence with a supernatural strength of 51+ and a two handed Vibra Blade casting speed weapon? thats 1d6x10+3d6 mega damage...

on average thats about 39-52 mega damage a hit, you could most likely shear off limbs with that... but a kill in two hits is not a forgone conclusion, the CS may not have the best weapons but they have the best armor on the planet.

[Colt47]

Well, the fact is the CS has thought of everything. That doesn't mean they can defend against them. Corruption of the food supply would be far easier to accomplish then simply attacking them directly. Also biological warfare is not something the CS would be used to either. If you get the people of the CS to doubt in the Governments ability to protect them, that would be more then enough to destroy the CS war machine.

As hard as it might be for some people to comprehend, the CS isn't an invincible war machine. People do make mistakes, and they can be exploited.

[rat_bastard]

Well, the fact is the CS has thought of everything. That doesn't mean they can defend against them. Corruption of the food supply would be far easier to accomplish then simply attacking them directly. Also biological warfare is not something the CS would be used to either. If you get the people of the CS to doubt in the Governments ability to protect them, that would be more then enough to destroy the CS war machine.

As hard as it might be for some people to comprehend, the CS isn't an invincible war machine. People do make mistakes, and they can be exploited.

Read Lone star, With the exception of the gene splicers and possibly japan, the CS is the best equipped to defend against and commit bio-warfare.[/b]