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z0b wrote:One only has to look under my name to know that I have no love for the CS. I do think that a lot of these arguments are moot as the desrciptions and data of the fictional world provided for us by KS and PB change too often to allow us a rational argument. For example, the CS in the Main book are portrayed as an ignorant, evil, Nazi-like state, whilst Lazlo and Tolkeen are portrayed as Utopian societies. These are also the only real safe places in North America. As later books are published by different authors, the feel of the CS and North America changes significantly. Tolkeen is now just as bad as the CS, and there are many other powerful nations and cities, so it is no longer so easy to see the CS as missguided but the only hope for humanity (actually I never saw that anyway but I could understand peoples' justification better). My point is that when you start arguing about the "facts", "data" and the morality of a fictional (and sometimes poorly conceived) government, it gets very subjective.

My personal opinion is that whilst the CS may keep NA relatively stable, all dictatorships inevitably collapse, either from within, from external pressures or both. When that happens the people under CS protection will all of a sudden find themselves free but unprotected. However something else will take it's place and hopefully they would have the common sense to use all the resources available including magic.

The Splugorth watch us!!! wrote:While I don't agree with everything they do they do help protect a large number of people form outsiders that could do them harm. Even though they hate non-humans they have laws that protect the weak and thats good enough for me.

K20A2_S wrote:

z0b wrote:

The Splugorth watch us!!! wrote:While I don't agree with everything they do they do help protect a large number of people form outsiders that could do them harm. Even though they hate non-humans they have laws that protect the weak and thats good enough for me.

Don't forget the genocide, slavery and book burning.

If the CS wasn't there, maybe another kingdom would have filled that niche without the savage dictatorship.

Everybody is looking at the short term goals of making peace with the d-bees, yes you get peace.......for a while. Then you get d-bees in the council then they start enslaving humans b/c their inferior.......and on and on.

They are fighting for the FREAKING HUMAN RACE!
Things really can't be taken lightly.

K20A2_S wrote:That's how mis-haps happen, they let their guard down for one second and next thing you know ther'e 9789878 assasination attempt towards the emporer and the high command by d-bee terrorists whom "still have it out for them".

It's the way it's got to be in order to secure the existence of the human race.

K20A2_S wrote:
Everybody is looking at the short term goals of making peace with the d-bees, yes you get peace.......for a while. Then you get d-bees in the council then they start enslaving humans b/c their inferior.......and on and on.

They are fighting for the FREAKING HUMAN RACE!
Things really can't be taken lightly.

z0b wrote:Huh? Exactly why are d-bees going to start enslaving the human race? And why is this any better than the way the CS treat dog boys who they created? If their so worried about "inhuman invaders" why creat millions of inhumans at lone star? Oh and why are humans inferior?

Secondly what you are saying would be the same as in the real world killing all middle easterners because some of them are terrorists. That may be the quickest way to solve the problem but it isn't the best or the right way.

No the difference isn't that I am looking at the short term goals. The difference is that I realize that rifts earth will NEVER AGAIN be populated SOLEY by human beings. You must realize this too and deal with it. Rifts earth is now the melting pot planet.

DarkBrandon wrote:

z0b wrote:Huh? Exactly why are d-bees going to start enslaving the human race? And why is this any better than the way the CS treat dog boys who they created? If their so worried about "inhuman invaders" why creat millions of inhumans at lone star? Oh and why are humans inferior?

Why? because they can. CS Treats dog boys as second class citizens. and you know what, the dog boys love us for that. I believe in lonestar it was stated that 90-97% of all dog boys Love their possition in the human "pack". They know their place and accept it.
Even if only %3 don't like it then they are still slaves, you are condoning slavery.
Seriously, Do you think humans would ever accept Dbees as equals, if not the other way around? We have problems sending out kids to school where other kids potentially carry guns. How would one feel to send their child to a school where other children carry the potential naturally to obliterate a building?
Not all d-bees have powers, but many CS citizens are psychics that do. Are you suggesting that the psychics will one day take control of the CS?

Secondly what you are saying would be the same as in the real world killing all middle easterners because some of them are terrorists. That may be the quickest way to solve the problem but it isn't the best or the right way.

Breathe...repeate to yourself...it's a game...it's a game...good. See, Killing hundreds of dbees and raping their woman and putting their children into slavery cannot be equaited to the middle east. Why? Cause it's not real. it's fake. It's a story. We support a story line. Not Death to everyone in the middle east.
He's making a comparrison to put it into perspective, not suggesting that's what your advocating. If you like to take the side killing and raping within a game that's still a little disturbing. It's fine to like the CS for what they are and think they've got cool armour and robots but I don't see why you feel you must justify they're actions, when those actions are clearly evil and wrong.

No the difference isn't that I am looking at the short term goals. The difference is that I realize that rifts earth will NEVER AGAIN be populated SOLEY by human beings. You must realize this too and deal with it. Rifts earth is now the melting pot planet.

CS will never know unless they try. And they are. It won't be easy, but you must keep YOUR EYES ON THE PRIZE!

Remember friends...the meak shall inherit the earth. And they don't get much more Meaker than Humans. Except for cactus people. But they don't count, no one plays them cause they always get eaten.

z0b wrote:Even if only %3 don't like it then they are still slaves, you are condoning slavery.

Not all d-bees have powers, but many CS citizens are psychics that do. Are you suggesting that the psychics will one day take control of the CS?

He's making a comparrison to put it into perspective, not suggesting that's what your advocating. If you like to take the side killing and raping within a game that's still a little disturbing. It's fine to like the CS for what they are and think they've got cool armour and robots but I don't see why you feel you must justify they're actions, when those actions are clearly evil and wrong.

DarkBrandon wrote:

z0b wrote:Even if only %3 don't like it then they are still slaves, you are condoning slavery.

It's only slavery if the Majority see it that way. It is a democracy after all.
No slavery is slavery, no matter what the majority think. As soon as one of them are being held against their will it's slavery, and no it's not a democracy it's a dictatorship, what are you talking about?

[color=red]Not all d-bees have powers, but many CS citizens are psychics that do. Are you suggesting that the psychics will one day take control of the CS?

They could. that's why really powerful ones are given a bar code and shuned if not part of the miliatary.
So being part of the military makes it OK? Then why not let D-Bees into the military, and again why kill d-bees that have no powers and pose no threat.

[color=red]He's making a comparrison to put it into perspective, not suggesting that's what your advocating. If you like to take the side killing and raping within a game that's still a little disturbing. It's fine to like the CS for what they are and think they've got cool armour and robots but I don't see why you feel you must justify they're actions, when those actions are clearly evil and wrong.

Because it's a game. I dunno. I mean, I played fable and killed my wife cause I didn't want to have to worry about divorce. Disturbing? I laugh when I played Metal Gear solid and broke my first eneimes neck. I laugh when I pwne my friend in the head with a sniper rifle in Halo. I would never remove my friends spine in real life, but when playing mortal kombat, it's almost required.

DarkBrandon wrote:Why? because they can. CS Treats dog boys as second class citizens. and you know what, the dog boys love us for that. I believe in lonestar it was stated that 90-97% of all dog boys Love their possition in the human "pack". They know their place and accept it.

DarkBrandon wrote:Breathe...repeate to yourself...it's a game...it's a game...good. See, Killing hundreds of dbees and raping their woman and putting their children into slavery cannot be equaited to the middle east. Why? Cause it's not real. it's fake. It's a story. We support a story line. Not Death to everyone in the middle east.

DarkBrandon wrote:CS will never know unless they try. And they are. It won't be easy, but you must keep YOUR EYES ON THE PRIZE!

No slavery is slavery, no matter what the majority think. As soon as one of them are being held against their will it's slavery, and no it's not a democracy it's a dictatorship, what are you talking about?

So being part of the military makes it OK? Then why not let D-Bees into the military, and again why kill d-bees that have no powers and pose no threat.

OK I'll admit that I like to shoot my friends in Halo as well, but violence in war is one thing, I would not play a game of genocide of the innocent and helpless much less rape.

Larsen wrote:I was using real life as an example of why the CS is evil and wrong. I have no problem playing a CS soldier because it it just a game. I just admit that I am either playing a self deluded character(possible good guy or selfish), a character ignorant of the truth(which can still be a good guy), or an evil character. I am just pointing out that the CS is evil just like killing your wife in fable because your bored is still an evil act. My problem is that the pro-cs people don't admit that the CS is just one of the many evils in rifts and actually defend the actions of the CS making it look like what they do is ok, which it is not.

Well the prize for me when I generally play good guys in rifts is to try and destroy all evil, which includes the CS.

DarkBrandon wrote:When I play a good guy in rifts, my prize is to usually to stay alive. When I play a bad guy in rifts, my prize is to usually to stay alive.

Larsen wrote:

DarkBrandon wrote:When I play a good guy in rifts, my prize is to usually to stay alive. When I play a bad guy in rifts, my prize is to usually to stay alive.

Well that is always the first intention of any character..

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Larsen wrote:

DarkBrandon wrote:When I play a good guy in rifts, my prize is to usually to stay alive. When I play a bad guy in rifts, my prize is to usually to stay alive.

Well that is always the first intention of any character..

Ah.. you've never played a Samurai...

Sir Darom wrote:Rifts is just a game, but unless all the pro-CS advocates are just being devils advocates for the sake of an argument, the ones who honestly view the CS as being a good thing are more or less insinuating a darwinistic philosophy on the boards. Just as how, if there were lots of vocal Pro-Lazlo types, they'd be insinuating a utopian idealist philosophy on the boards.

Larsen wrote:No I really haven't. Maybe you could tell me why playing a samurai would impact that my first intention is no longer to stay alive? I'm just not understanding the comparison.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Larsen wrote:No I really haven't. Maybe you could tell me why playing a samurai would impact that my first intention is no longer to stay alive? I'm just not understanding the comparison.

A samurai's first duty is to his lord; Death means nothing.
Actually, Death means great honor under many circumstances... so there's actually incentive to die.

Jesterzzn wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Larsen wrote:No I really haven't. Maybe you could tell me why playing a samurai would impact that my first intention is no longer to stay alive? I'm just not understanding the comparison.

A samurai's first duty is to his lord; Death means nothing.
Actually, Death means great honor under many circumstances... so there's actually incentive to die.

Agreed.
A samurai would never hold self preservation higher than bushido. Most pre-industrail samurai duels resulted in the death of both combatants. Why? Because in battle your life is secondary to the kill. A samurai would sacrafice his life to kill his opponent in a heartbeat.

Sir Darom wrote:My point being, someone was wondering why the debate was being taken so seriously, even though Rifts is just a game. That's my theory as to why.

Sir Darom wrote:My point being, someone was wondering why the debate was being taken so seriously, even though Rifts is just a game. That's my theory as to why.

Sir Darom wrote:Rifts is just a game, but unless all the pro-CS advocates are just being devils advocates for the sake of an argument, the ones who honestly view the CS as being a good thing are more or less insinuating a darwinistic philosophy on the boards. Just as how, if there were lots of vocal Pro-Lazlo types, they'd be insinuating a utopian idealist philosophy on the boards.

DarkBrandon wrote:Hum...how to phrase this...

In my opinion, if the rifts were to happen, CS would probably be the closest thing to a realistic moral change human beings would have as a whole. As such, they are the most fun to play since they have that boarder on pure fantasy and a connection to reality. They would be the "average man" and his "average man's opinion". I support CS because in the context of the game, this is how humans would react to such an event. Humans by nature, will destory that which is stronger than them and that which they do not understand. Most creatures fit this check-list perfectly. Maybe I am or am not enlightend. But one reason My favorite character class in BTS2 is the Normal Person is because there is that connection between Fantasy and reality that I can connect with.

It's when you have the problem of being unable to distinguish reality and fantasy that the real problem arises. When you have people who claim that because you support CS you also support Genoside IRL. These are the people who don't really role-play. They take themselves, give themselves power in a fantasy world, and play it as themselves. They've never played anything beyond that, and thus have a problem believeing other people could.

el magico -- darklorddc wrote:they may not all be realistic in the true sense, but they've been placed in Rifts as is and you have to deal with it. And really, the CS is far from realistic either. It's a Nazi clone meant to be, specifically, a moral dilemma for the players. It's just one big plot point. Unless you start out as a CS player, you can never join and never really get on their good side. Its almost impossible to build a player group that won't have friction with them unless you do an entirely CS campaign.
The nation that makes the most sense in Rifts is, honestly, the republic of Japan...and that's only because they got dropped right out of pre-Rifts times. The CS makes no sense, Lazlo certainly doesn't make much sense (like why didn't FQ roll right over them a long time ago? They're right out their back door!). I never figured out why you'd build Tolkeen right in the path of the Xiticix advance. And New Lazlo? C'mon now.
Really, the only real Rifts born and bred empire that functions like it probably would if Rifts really happened are the Russian Warlord provinces, and I have issues about where the heck they get the resources for all those damn cyborgs.
So if we're going for actual realism in a post-apocalyptic world like Rifts....the only group that would truly behave as it does would be the Warlords of Russia.
I won't even bring up New Camelot...

However, playing the cards that have been dealt us, meaning every nation is as valid and canon as any other as long as it's in the books. Then the CS in both freedoms, safety and standard of living, is a pale shadow next to specifically the NGR and Republic of Japan....and doesn't come in much higher in true population (meaning actual citizens) and might than the Silver River Republics, which are about as large and have equivalent tech (even having "large" Glitterboy corps). The SRR also allows techno-wizardry. Nothing like a GB with imp. to energy and chameleon TW additions....
Is that silly? You betcha, but no sillier than 3 million spare samas's, and the prosek's magical "summon impossible economic stability" spell

el magico -- darklorddc wrote:they may not all be realistic in the true sense, but they've been placed in Rifts as is and you have to deal with it. And really, the CS is far from realistic either. It's a Nazi clone meant to be, specifically, a moral dilemma for the players. It's just one big plot point. Unless you start out as a CS player, you can never join and never really get on their good side. Its almost impossible to build a player group that won't have friction with them unless you do an entirely CS campaign.
The nation that makes the most sense in Rifts is, honestly, the republic of Japan...and that's only because they got dropped right out of pre-Rifts times. The CS makes no sense, Lazlo certainly doesn't make much sense (like why didn't FQ roll right over them a long time ago? They're right out their back door!). I never figured out why you'd build Tolkeen right in the path of the Xiticix advance. And New Lazlo? C'mon now.
Really, the only real Rifts born and bred empire that functions like it probably would if Rifts really happened are the Russian Warlord provinces, and I have issues about where the heck they get the resources for all those damn cyborgs.
So if we're going for actual realism in a post-apocalyptic world like Rifts....the only group that would truly behave as it does would be the Warlords of Russia.
I won't even bring up New Camelot...

However, playing the cards that have been dealt us, meaning every nation is as valid and canon as any other as long as it's in the books. Then the CS in both freedoms, safety and standard of living, is a pale shadow next to specifically the NGR and Republic of Japan....and doesn't come in much higher in true population (meaning actual citizens) and might than the Silver River Republics, which are about as large and have equivalent tech (even having "large" Glitterboy corps). The SRR also allows techno-wizardry. Nothing like a GB with imp. to energy and chameleon TW additions....
Is that silly? You betcha, but no sillier than 3 million spare samas's, and the prosek's magical "summon impossible economic stability" spell.

Mighty_Grackle wrote:A human could neve become anywhere close to even a hatchling dragon. It may get up there in physical strength,but there are things such as bio-regeneration in such high proportions that nothing could give him that power. An adult dragon couldn't be matched by a human.

Hystrix wrote:

DarkBrandon wrote:Hum...how to phrase this...

In my opinion, if the rifts were to happen, CS would probably be the closest thing to a realistic moral change human beings would have as a whole. As such, they are the most fun to play since they have that boarder on pure fantasy and a connection to reality. They would be the "average man" and his "average man's opinion". I support CS because in the context of the game, this is how humans would react to such an event. Humans by nature, will destory that which is stronger than them and that which they do not understand. Most creatures fit this check-list perfectly. Maybe I am or am not enlightend. But one reason My favorite character class in BTS2 is the Normal Person is because there is that connection between Fantasy and reality that I can connect with.

Hystrix wrote:

DarkBrandon wrote:It's when you have the problem of being unable to distinguish reality and fantasy that the real problem arises. When you have people who claim that because you support CS you also support Genoside IRL. These are the people who don't really role-play. They take themselves, give themselves power in a fantasy world, and play it as themselves. They've never played anything beyond that, and thus have a problem believeing other people could.

Yep.

K20A2_S wrote:All I have to say that if somehow someway some wierd day the Great Catclysm happned and you have a choice of being in chi-town as a citizen/soldier or an adventurer on the outsides of the way 99.9% would want to be in the walls.

el magico -- darklorddc wrote:

K20A2_S wrote:All I have to say that if somehow someway some wierd day the Great Catclysm happned and you have a choice of being in chi-town as a citizen/soldier or an adventurer on the outsides of the way 99.9% would want to be in the walls.

So much of that depends on location, location, location....whose walls? That's an old red herring argument, since the CS wasn't the first nation to rise, wasn't always evil, and only covers a tiny geographic area. If your scenario were being realistically portrayed, you'd have to be in either psyscape or the NGR, as they were the only two powerhouses early on.

(edit) They weren't the first, they weren't the safest, they weren't the strongest, and they aren't even likely to let you in....so why do so many try to put up the "CS or nothing" scenario when they weren't even really that much of an option, esp. in comparison to what else is out there. The assumption is everyone is born in the burbs? How dangerous is it to travel to chi-town compared to anywhere else? you could just as easily be closer to Lazlo or the NGR or an Australian city depending on where you were born...and at least you have a fair to middlin' chance of actually getting into those!

z0b wrote:Yep, I'm on my knees repenting...

Because I love to be different, I think from now on I will be a die hard Lord Dunscon and True FoM supporter.

ALL HAIL DUNSCON! He is the true saviour of humanity because he takes the most powerful weapon on this planet (magic) makes himself not just the destroyer of demons he is the Lord of Demons. He is not some stupid paranoid tech user that kills all invaders on site, he uses them to his advantage. The only right is might and he will rule this planet with an iron fist centuries from now when the Prosek dynasty is nothing but dust. We should all look to be like him.

Capt. Meschievitz wrote:

z0b wrote:Yep, I'm on my knees repenting...

Because I love to be different, I think from now on I will be a die hard Lord Dunscon and True FoM supporter.

ALL HAIL DUNSCON! He is the true saviour of humanity because he takes the most powerful weapon on this planet (magic) makes himself not just the destroyer of demons he is the Lord of Demons. He is not some stupid paranoid tech user that kills all invaders on site, he uses them to his advantage. The only right is might and he will rule this planet with an iron fist centuries from now when the Prosek dynasty is nothing but dust. We should all look to be like him.

Thats the spirit....

and your also part of that 0.1% that wouldn't run into the CS if you in any human shoes by what K20A2_S said....

I wouldn't be either, I would be in free Quebec(Thats where I was born)...

However, playing the cards that have been dealt us, meaning every nation is as valid and canon as any other as long as it's in the books. Then the CS in both freedoms, safety and standard of living, is a pale shadow next to specifically the NGR and Republic of Japan....and doesn't come in much higher in true population (meaning actual citizens) and might than the Silver River Republics, which are about as large and have equivalent tech (even having "large" Glitterboy corps). The SRR also allows techno-wizardry. Nothing like a GB with imp. to energy and chameleon TW additions....
Is that silly? You betcha, but no sillier than 3 million spare samas's, and the prosek's magical "summon impossible economic stability" spell.

Mecha-Viper wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Larsen wrote:

DarkBrandon wrote:When I play a good guy in rifts, my prize is to usually to stay alive. When I play a bad guy in rifts, my prize is to usually to stay alive.

Well that is always the first intention of any character..

Ah.. you've never played a Samurai...

they are fun to play nothing like having honor mean more then life

K20A2_S wrote:

rellik wrote:I store them up for when i want to get a date, but lately i havent had any good material cause ill i can get are war quotes and for some reason the ladies dont like it when i talk about death and destruction.

Unless you want to date Satanic chicks

rellik wrote:

el magico -- darklorddc wrote:

rellik wrote:"First they came for the communists and i did not stand up, because i was not a communist.
Then they came for the jews and i did not stand up, because i was not a jew
Then they came for the disabled and i did not stand up, because i was not disabled.
Then they came for me and there was noone left to stand up."
WWII surivor said something to that effect. Every war is everyone's problem.

yes, and he said it in reference to Nazi fascism....I'm not sure if you meant to use that in support of the CS in seriousness or as a joke....I hope the latter...seriously.

actually i posted it to support one of K2's earlier posts inresponse to fenrir, I used it to say just what i said at the end of the post, "Every war is everyone's problem." it was used in all seriousness. the CS isnt great but its far from being out on your own. even in the 'Burbs you have a decent chance of living, out in the wild it takes one fury beatle to kill you and your whole little community, in the 'Burbs you at lest have soldiers wandering around every few days. plus what do you think is gonna happen if the CS does manage to close all the rifts and get rid of supernatual beings? the CS has a great economy, large populatoin, huge agricultural base, i mean most of the CS is devoted to farming and breeding(people not animals). if anything in a few generations the CS will have a civilan population in the billions, if it doesnt alread, and the production capablities to support all those people. the CS is the most likely place to survive any major threat in NA. Hell in ten generations i wouldnt be surprised to see the CS have full scale war on the Xiticix, 3 million SAMAS, even the old ones, can level a mountain range. just the amount of rounds being fired would destroy a colony.

K20A2_S wrote:

el magico -- darklorddc wrote: They don't even know Dunscon is getting stronger. Arrogance and stupidity in one package...how convenient.

But Archie does, and it says that he plans on telling the CS about it one way or another. Like I said previously, the CS may not know what is going on or where, but Archie does and he's in charge(in his mind) of taking care of humanity.

The CS won't be overrun anytime soon, plus only 10% of the CS populatin is in the military........which means what........that they really haven't dug deep yet. If it ever came down to Chi-towns survival, milllions of citizens are still at their disposal.