Carpet of Adhesion

[Killer Cyborg]

First I would like to just say sorry to Killer Cyborg in advance but, I HAD to post this!!!!

Do we play Devil's Advocate much? After all your arguments against me for why CoA shouldn't work the way I stated...

After trying to show how many different ways it would be possible to slip CoA...

You post this elsewhere:

My simple rule is is that a creature is in any way restrained or confined in their movement, any bond or rope will do, they cannot teleport.

Thats an odd rule. Hmm for some reason this purely mundane section of hemp has somehow prevented my ability to magically transport myself to another spot...WTH?"

I agree that it doesn't seem to make much sense.
On the other hand, it's a simple rule that provides a clear answer to a large number of situations.
Sometimes simplicity is better than realism.

OMG is this classic!!!

????
What about it?

You apparently agree on an argument that makes less sense than the one I offer you. You could have just as easily and more reasonably posted that comment here.

No, I could not have.
Nekira was posting a house rule that she uses.
You are trying to debate the nature of the official rules.
Her house rule cannot be wrong, your interpretation of the rules can be.

What do you argue for? It's not playability, it's not logic or realism and you actually are not a rules lawyer despite how many might see you. You only argue for the sake of arguing, hence Devil's Advocate.

Quit flame baiting.
I argue for playability, logic, and reason.

Any rule or statement that someone makes that has a hole in it, you will argue against. To me, this is not for rules clarification or productive to how things can be applied in a gaming setting. This is just you picking a bone for no real purpose at all.

I knitpick the crap out of the rules as well but, my over goal is to come away with a reasonable idea on how to get something to work in game, not just to be a nay-sayer.

Same here, and I have a simularly poor view of how you do things.

[Killer Cyborg]

ding-ding

Round 8 about to begin...keep it going fellas...

so I guess the mods just let something go until it gets out of hand.

owww! my eye!

Usually they give a warning before things get too far, and if things keep on and get out of hand, then they step in.

Personally, I'd rather not get to the point where they even post a warning.

[Blue Eyes]

hmm...

in this post we cannot even seem to fugure out what the spell actually does - bommer.

1: does it create an actual magic carpet that is sticky and can be shaped to fit the spellcasters desires both in size and color?

2: or does it create a magical force like some of u keep insisting, a force that makes objects or people stick to it

well i personally think its number one for many reasons but most of all because of the spells name and the very first sentence in the spell "the spelcaster creates a sticky carpet, ...( size), that will adhere firmly to anyone who touches it." so the spellcaster should be able to makeit look like an actual carpet or change colors or even make it transparant just like he can adjust its size because it needs to be fitted to the environment in which it is used.

in my entry above (page 6 in this post) i have listed my take on the spell as well as several questions that i have in regards to this spell and i would appreciate if somebody would comment on them.

To Cyborg, i hope u wont consider this flaming and i hope it will not rip open our previous disagreements but i myself have sometimes wondered if u actually just argue for the sake of arguing alone - sometimes it can be difficult to see what it is ur trying to achieve, im looking for playability

and to anybody who might try to use this in an argument against cyborg DONT! this is just me reaching out trying to get some insight

c ya

[Killer Cyborg]

To Cyborg, i hope u wont consider this flaming and i hope it will not rip open our previous disagreements but i myself have sometimes wondered if u actually just argue for the sake of arguing alone - sometimes it can be difficult to see what it is ur trying to achieve, im looking for playability

and to anybody who might try to use this in an argument against cyborg DONT! this is just me reaching out trying to get some insight

c ya

I don't tend to take offense at politely phrased questions.

As to why I argue, I argue to teach and to learn.
When somebody presents some information that conflicts with my view on things, then this indicates that one of us is mistaken. Argument, properly done, is the best way to determine who is wrong, to what extent, and to discover what the truth is.

[cornholioprime]

To Cyborg, i hope u wont consider this flaming and i hope it will not rip open our previous disagreements but i myself have sometimes wondered if u actually just argue for the sake of arguing alone - sometimes it can be difficult to see what it is ur trying to achieve, im looking for playability

and to anybody who might try to use this in an argument against cyborg DONT! this is just me reaching out trying to get some insight

c ya

I don't tend to take offense at politely phrased questions.

As to why I argue, I argue to teach and to learn.
When somebody presents some information that conflicts with my view on things, then this indicates that one of us is mistaken. Argument, properly done, is the best way to determine who is wrong, to what extent, and to discover what the truth is.

And, because sometimes it is simply fun to do so.



Warrior: Killer Cyborg, what is best in life???

Killer "Conan" Cyborg: To (intellectually) crush your Debate Partners, to see them driven before you as they admit they were in error.....and to hear the lamentation of their Girlfriends.........

[cornholioprime]

Killer "Conan" Cyborg: To (intellectually) crush your Debate Partners, to see them driven before you as they admit they were in error.....and to hear the lamentation of their Girlfriends.........

and to heeya da lamentayshun of da moderatorz !

[Blue Eyes]

howdy

shadowmagic wrote
"How CoA manifestst: If CoA were visible it would make a poor trap"

well i disagree, carpet of CoA is an actual carpet, it looks like a carpet and the spellcaster can change size and in my game also colors and can even make it transparant. it can be adjusted to fit into most environments

shadowmagic wrote
"Saving against CoA: this is an area effect and there in nothing visible to dodge"

again i disagree, i interpret the spell as an actual carpet, and when cast on a surface to make it sticky it can be interpreted as an area affect spell affecting all/anything that touches it. the spellcaster can also cast the spell to affecr only a single individual as a super fly-paper within 27,4 m. so in my opinion there is something to dodge, similar to a magic net that comes flying at u a carpet of adhesion comes flying and wraps u tight upon impact, u fall to the ground and now u also stick to the ground. i am seriously considering allowing targets to save against this flypaper aspect of the spell, a dodge similar to the magic net.

Korentin_black Wrote
"Carpet of Adhesion on the other hand is rather more complete, but still not suitably compelling or well-worded to suggest many of the popular abuses would or would-not work - for example, my main (and it's pretty serious) irritation with those who argue for a literalist interpretation at the moment goes like this :

while it is true that the wording of the CoA isnt very precise or elaborate and that many people may assign the spell more power then it should have, dont forget that this is because the spell is poorly described - if palladium had done a good job we wouldnt be having this discussion. i think a literal interpretation is necessary, when casting a fireball u create a magically directed ball of fire not a basket of green goblins. when u cast CoA u cast an actual sticky magic carpet on a surface or one that is magically guided similar to the magic net spell. it is only an area effect spell when cast on the ground or similar surfaces. because the spells description says nothing about that strenth, the soil the carpet sticks to or any other factors matter in the process of getting free - its simple - save and get out in 2d6 meless or fail ur save and be stuck for the duration. that is what (imo) makes the spell overpowered. the target should have a chance to spot it (and avoid it if cast on the ground) or dodge the carpet when cast as a fly-paper.

Korentin_Black wrote
"You touch the carpet and you're /stuck/, stopped dead completely with no inertia effects on the object you're stuck to. The direction of your motion is irrelevant. You may, or may not take damage on this basis (it's not described) if you were travelling at high speed."

im not sure where u get this from, what u write above is not from the spells description thats for sure and it is not representative of what i think either.
i myself have many things i wonder about concerning this spell but i also think it is necessary to apply common sense. a borg comes running at 100 mph and steps on a CoA trap 10ft*20ft cast on the floor inside an aircraft hangar. the borg sets foot on the carpet (and is stuck) and smack the borgs sheer velocity makes it fall forward and hammer into the ground now lying face down on the ground. now assuming the ground is sdc plaster the borgs speed, velocity and weight might result in the ground being ripped up and the borg tumbling along the ground being completely entangled in the carpet. a tank driving into a wall with CoA cast on it might crash through the wall, but parts of the wall will adhere to the tank now making it difficult to see for the tank crew.

what i need is good arguments for and against the entrapped/victims possibilities to act. if completely entangled can a person shoot blindly through the carpet. can people outside blast through the carpet to harm the person inside. does the carpet have an MDC value, how much does it take to destroy it or is it impossible to destroy it and if so why? cmon u people give me some answers

c ya

[Blue Eyes]

hi

well, i have read ur answers and i am still not convinced the CoA is an actual carpet, not just because of the spells name says so but because thats what the spell says, it does so in the very first line. excuse me but if canon matters much then u will have to agree that the spelldescription states that the spellcaster creates an actual sticky CARPET. not a sticky area with magical glue, sorry If u were right they could have chosen to write anything

as for the dodge part here is my explanation. i see the CoA has two separate functions

1: the CoA can be used to prepare traps or sticky areas by casting the spell on various surfaces like the ground, walls, ceiling or items if the spellcaster desires. no matter what the carpet looks like characters will have a chance to spot these "traps" and avoid them by going around them, jumping over, fly etc.

2: instead the spellcaster can choose to cast the spell upon a (one) person/PA/Robot/monster etc. while i can agree with u that it does not say anywhere that the CoA comes flyng at u, it doesnt say anywhere that is doesnt either so... now assuming that it is not flying towards u, the spellcaster creates it with a focus on one person and the CoA has to appear somehow, either magically appearing on the ground entangling the feet, then legs, lower body etc or magically appearing over the head of the target dropping down over the head and entangling. or maybe as i say comes flying as an actual magically guided carpet. whatever it looks like i personally think the target should be able to dodge this attack (but only if he knows he is under attack - similar to dodging blasts etc). the fact that u cannot do anything but save really stinks and i can only repeat that, thats what makes this spell overpowered imo

now it specifically states under saving throws that it is effective against cyborgs, PA, robots and those with supernatural strength - so how long ur stuck only depends on ur ability to save

what the spell tells us nothing about is what happens to those that are stuck, what they can and cannot do - but i guess thats depends on the circumstances and is up to the GM

the whole idea that CoA is sticky on both sides also annoys me a little, the only way i can explain this is that it can be cast on a wall or ceiling and to stick there i guess it has to be sticky on both sides to be effective huh? other than that i dont see anything that suggests it is sticky on both sides and that it incapacitates and holds a victim in one place... just a thought

oh yes, is a carpet of adhesion a magical barrier? i would say yes

c ya

[Blue Eyes]

hey

kevin beckman wrote:
"So yes it could very well mean an area of magical glue"

no

kevin beckman wrote:
"Since there's no mention of any strike bonuses are anything about dodging then I pretty sure we can safely assume doesn't fly."

no, the magic net has no strike bonuses, neither does fireball...automatic hits unless u dodge 18+

kevin beckman wrote:
"...or it it's cast upon a person and they become walking mass of stickiness."

true that is another possibility and the spells description seems to agree with u since the spelldescription only allows a savingthrow and nothing more. but keep in mind that the spell actually has no real info on this part of the spell.
as i have already stated in this thread, this is the part of the spell that imo makes it ridiculously overpowered compared to its level, how many ppe it costs etc. i am for, giving the target the chance to dodge (assuming he/she/it knows the attack is coming - ie not in an ambush or similar situations) the attack even if it is difficult - the difficulty could be much higher than 18 or with penalties.

c ya

[Damian Magecraft]

the spell does seem slightly over powered at first blush...
but after consideration no more than any other spell i have seen...
i think we sometimes get stuck in a liner thought process where we forget that although the individual is trapped in the "carpet" (not even going to get into that part of the discussion) they are still capable of actions of some sort.
and no there is no dodge against it however (getting into GM call territory here) I think (bolded for emphasis) the saving throw would still apply to a targeted person...obviously this means perhaps a need to raise the level and ppe needed because of the effect...I Personally do not see the need but then thats just my oppinion...

[Blue Eyes]

hi

to kevin:
because it is an actual carpet, not glue, stick to the spells description and i believe one should be able to dodge the CoA just like u can dodge a fireball, thats what i am trying to say. it was an argument against u saying "it has no bonuses to strike" and neither does the spells i described which doesnt mean u cannot dodge them...

Damian wrote
"they are still capable of actions of some sort."

i am interested what makes u say this, first of all it most defenately depends on which version of the spell u read, the one in RUE is less powerful than the early descriptions of the spell, in my old rulesbook where it states that the person affected is helpless and unable to do anything and cannot move or attack. the current spell description in RUE gives no information on what a character can or cannot do so, whether u can shoot through a carpet to affect someone captured inside, how much damage the carpet can sustain before it is destroyed and on the list goes...

my problem with the spell is not to figure these things out, i can house rule or ask u guys what u think, my actual problem goes entirely to the saving throw aspect of the spell. u can only save and nothing more, and to mee that is what makes it powerful, no dodge, and even if u save ur still stuck for 2d6 melees which is a long time in combat! impressive for such a low level spell. and my suggestion to solving this, i see it as a problem, i say give the target a chance to dodge.

also take into consideration that RUE allows spellcasters to cast one spell pr attack, so a spellcaster could release anywhere from 4-8 CoA in one round depending on level - and the way it is now u can do nothing but save - too bad

c ya

[Damian Magecraft]

srry double post

[Damian Magecraft]

hi

Damian wrote
"they are still capable of actions of some sort."

i am interested what makes u say this, first of all it most defenately depends on which version of the spell u read, the one in RUE is less powerful than the early descriptions of the spell, in my old rulesbook where it states that the person affected is helpless and unable to do anything and cannot move or attack. the current spell description in RUE gives no information on what a character can or cannot do so, whether u can shoot through a carpet to affect someone captured inside, how much damage the carpet can sustain before it is destroyed and on the list goes...

my problem with the spell is not to figure these things out, i can house rule or ask u guys what u think, my actual problem goes entirely to the saving throw aspect of the spell. u can only save and nothing more, and to mee that is what makes it powerful, no dodge, and even if u save ur still stuck for 2d6 melees which is a long time in combat! impressive for such a low level spell. and my suggestion to solving this, i see it as a problem, i say give the target a chance to dodge.

also take into consideration that RUE allows spellcasters to cast one spell pr attack, so a spellcaster could release anywhere from 4-8 CoA in one round depending on level - and the way it is now u can do nothing but save - too bad

c ya

what makes me say this?
the descriptor that implies to me that if cast on the floor (for example) only the victims feet are entangled/trapped its a carpet not a web (completly different spells there) see this is the linear thought process i mentioned before...we get stuck in this mode of it completely entraps the victim...no...it sticks for the duration to what ever part touches it not the whole body...there for if my foot is what is stuck i can still fire my missile weapons, i can still atempt to parry, and with some gms (like myself) even a limited dodge of some sort...the only place i see where the spell is uber is in targeting a single individual and my soultion to that is he gets a save...

now to address the issue of the multiple castings of the spell in one melee...how unchallenged is your group if the party mage has this opertunity?mine are lucky to get 2 spells off in a 15 sec melee...if they get more than that CoA is not very high on thier list of spells to cast...nah they would rather use it to cast more devastaing spells...like heavy breathing...(think about it)

[Blue Eyes]

hi

kevin wrote:
" am sticking to the spell description. It could be be magical glue. A ****ing carpet of magical glue. Or it could be a magic feild thatcarpets an area."

ur wrong, its a carpet as in woven by whool or magic fibers that are sticky, not magical glue. the people that wrote this spell say nothing about that it is glue, they say its a carpet and not a carpet of magical glue - for the love of god how simple is that so i can use the argument it would have been mentioned if that is how it should be understood as well - bommer huh?

kevin wrote
"If CoA could be flung at someone/thing there would be mention of a what it takes to strike and/or dodge. Since neither are present why do interpret the spell that way?"

as i said before, now for the 3rd time, it doesnt say that CoA is flung at someone when used to entangle a single individual, but it does not say that it isnt either. there can be many different ways how it appears, the carpet magically appears directly on the person is but one possible explanation, it could materialize above the person, on the ground or come flying - i cannot see why these explanations cant be as good as urs.

that it isnt mentioned in the spell that it can be flung and there is no bonus to strike and that it says nothing about that it is possible to dodge the CoA is true im not arguing against that. im just saying that i think it is magically guided (spellcaster concentrates on 1 target) wether it flies, drops, appears or whatever and i think the target should be able to dodge.

To Damian:
i agree that people only stuck to the carpet with their feet or one hand or cling to it with their backs against the wall can still perform some actions like shooting a gun and maybe even dodge with penalties etc. this is entirely up to the GM since the spelldescription offers no clue as to how this should be handled
when the spell is cast on a single target however that person is completely entangled if he fails his savingthrow and effectively helpless for the duration. it is in this situation i think we need clearer guidelines as to what the completely entangled person can or cannot do, and what others can do to him. When the target saves one could argue that he or she isnt completely entangled because he will be able to free himself in "only" 2d6 melees - again up to the GM to make this call

Damian wrote:
"now to address the issue of the multiple castings of the spell in one melee...how unchallenged is your group if the party mage has this opertunity?mine are lucky to get 2 spells off in a 15 sec melee...if they get more than that CoA is not very high on thier list of spells to cast...nah they would rather use it to cast more devastaing spells...like heavy breathing...(think about it)"

i think its arrogant of u to write what u wrote above, dont assume anything about how i run my game, cause u really have no idea. it has nothing to with how challenged or unchallenged my group is, i am talking about possibilities. now that it only takes 1 acton for a sorceror to cast a lv 1-5 spell he could dish out many CoA (4-8) in one melee and effectively incapacitate an entire platoon of people (or 4-8 single individuals) when it only takes the spellcaster 2-3 seconds it is incredibly difficult to time an attack to interrupt the caster as well.

my point is, i think the spell is too powerful considering its only a low level spell. the fact that u can do nothing but save is too much. i am going to rule in my game, either u can dodge the CoA or when u save ur not affected

c ya

[Blue Eyes]

hello again

kevin wrote
"How many times do I need to post the definition of carpet for you to understand"

i understand just fine, stick to the spell description, says nothing about a carpet of magical glue

kevin wrote:
"It says it has to cast on a surface"

no it doesnt, it says that it can be cast upon a floor, table, wall etc or actually cast upon a person. RUE p.204

kevin wrote:
"It's the only one so far that fits."

u might think so, i disagree and i have already explained 3 times why

kevin wrote:
"Common sense. Although you could cast it on the ground under them."

u can cast the spell below somebody - make it squeeze in between the person and the ground? and this is u using common sense in a debate concerning the magic spell CoA i think the explanations i came up with are just as good as the one obout it appearing underneath or on a person.

kevin wrote:
"How is someone gonna dodge something that's gonna magically appear on them?"

that depends on many things, i assume the spellcaster has to focus on his intended target for the CoA to appear on the right person. when casting magic there are both verbal and visible somatic (i think thats the word) movement. imo if the target sees this he should be able to react, move out of the way in the last second and the CoA appears in the wrong place. thats one way to do it. but as i already explained i do not think it simply appears on the person, i think it comes flying or is created above the intended target...

c ya

[The Beast]

i understand just fine, stick to the spell description, says nothing about a carpet of magical glue

No, you don't understand. It says it creates a carpet. IT DOES NOT SAY WHAT THE CARPET CONSISTS OF. It's open to intrepretation.

The Palladium book states that it makes a sticky carpet.

Funny little side note. In PFRPG the description for CoA says:
The spell caster can alter the size and shape of this super flypaper (without exceeding the stated limit of 200 square feet), but it is always a flat sheet or carpet.

And yet in the same description it states that it can be cast on a person!

[The Beast]

Funny little side note. In PFRPG the description for CoA says:
The spell caster can alter the size and shape of this super flypaper (without exceeding the stated limit of 200 square feet), but it is always a flat sheet or carpet.

I was refering to that part.

[Killer Cyborg]

hello again

kevin wrote
"How many times do I need to post the definition of carpet for you to understand"

i understand just fine, stick to the spell description, says nothing about a carpet of magical glue

It also says nothing about a carpet of woven fibres either. The spell description does not specify which definition of the term "carpet" it us using, and it could just as easily the definition that he likes as it could be the definition you like.
Actually, I think that a magically created layer of glue makes a heck of a lot more sense than a magically created layer of super-sticky Shag or Berber.

What both of you seem to have overlooked is that the spell also refers to creating super "fly-paper".
This somewhat negates your literal interpretation of the term "carpet" because flypaper is not carpet.
Flypaper is "carpeted with a layer of glue" though, so this fits his view fairly well. Flypaper and "a carpet of glue" are basically the same thing: a layer of sticky stuff.

kevin wrote:
"It says it has to cast on a surface"

no it doesnt, it says that it can be cast upon a floor, table, wall etc or actually cast upon a person. RUE p.204

A person IS a surface.
At least, the outer layer of them is.

kevin wrote:
"How is someone gonna dodge something that's gonna magically appear on them?"

that depends on many things, i assume the spellcaster has to focus on his intended target for the CoA to appear on the right person. when casting magic there are both verbal and visible somatic (i think thats the word) movement. imo if the target sees this he should be able to react, move out of the way in the last second and the CoA appears in the wrong place. thats one way to do it. but as i already explained i do not think it simply appears on the person, i think it comes flying or is created above the intended target...

IF that was the official intent, then there would be some indication of this in the spell. Magic Net, for example, mentions the possibility of the target dodging. CoA does not.
Therefore, the most logical conclusion is that CoA cannot be dodged.

[Thinyser]

hello again

kevin wrote
"How many times do I need to post the definition of carpet for you to understand"

i understand just fine, stick to the spell description, says nothing about a carpet of magical glue

It also says nothing about a carpet of woven fibres either. The spell description does not specify which definition of the term "carpet" it us using, and it could just as easily the definition that he likes as it could be the definition you like.
Actually, I think that a magically created layer of glue makes a heck of a lot more sense than a magically created layer of super-sticky Shag or Berber.

What both of you seem to have overlooked is that the spell also refers to creating super "fly-paper".
This somewhat negates your literal interpretation of the term "carpet" because flypaper is not carpet.
Flypaper is "carpeted with a layer of glue" though, so this fits his view fairly well. Flypaper and "a carpet of glue" are basically the same thing: a layer of sticky stuff.

kevin wrote:
"It says it has to cast on a surface"

no it doesnt, it says that it can be cast upon a floor, table, wall etc or actually cast upon a person. RUE p.204

A person IS a surface.
At least, the outer layer of them is.

kevin wrote:
"How is someone gonna dodge something that's gonna magically appear on them?"

that depends on many things, i assume the spellcaster has to focus on his intended target for the CoA to appear on the right person. when casting magic there are both verbal and visible somatic (i think thats the word) movement. imo if the target sees this he should be able to react, move out of the way in the last second and the CoA appears in the wrong place. thats one way to do it. but as i already explained i do not think it simply appears on the person, i think it comes flying or is created above the intended target...

IF that was the official intent, then there would be some indication of this in the spell. Magic Net, for example, mentions the possibility of the target dodging. CoA does not.
Therefore, the most logical conclusion is that CoA cannot be dodged.

Agreed with all points.

Now I know only some of the following is supported in canon but This is how I see the spell:

The spell causes an object, or if its a large object, a portion of this object's surface equal to 200 square feet, to become instantly covered in an unseen, super sticky, magical force. Since it is unseen and forms instantly there is no ability to dodge. Any object that comes in contact with the "sticky" portion of the enspelled object will be stuck to it. Thus if it is cast on an object that is currently touching something else (like a person standing on the ground), or something comes in contact with the sticky area durring the spell's durration, the two will be stuck together magically untill the spell expires unless a save is made. IF a save is made the character may break free in 2d6 melee rounds.

Targets include living objects as well as inanimate ones, thus people can be targets. If this is the case they are instantly stuck to the ground, any items they are holding are stuck in their grasp, clothes/armor are sticky on both inside and outside and cannot be removed but attempting to will stick the hand to where it first touched the clothes/armor. Stored items on the enspelled person are not retrieveable either as they are stuck to their container, be it a backpack, sheath, holster, pocket, etc. but attempting to remove an item will stick the hand either to the container, if that is touched first, or the item, if that is touched first. Thus a holstered gun cannot be drawn and a grenade cannot have its pin pulled or be thrown.

[Blue Eyes]

hiya

Cyborg wrote:
"It also says nothing about a carpet of woven fibres either. The spell description does not specify which definition of the term "carpet" it us using, and it could just as easily the definition that he likes as it could be the definition you like.
Actually, I think that a magically created layer of glue makes a heck of a lot more sense than a magically created layer of super-sticky Shag or Berber.

What both of you seem to have overlooked is that the spell also refers to creating super "fly-paper".
This somewhat negates your literal interpretation of the term "carpet" because flypaper is not carpet.
Flypaper is "carpeted with a layer of glue" though, so this fits his view fairly well. Flypaper and "a carpet of glue" are basically the same thing: a layer of sticky stuff."

ur right the spell does not specify and thats the problem, so u basically repeated the problem, bravo and yes we could both be right or wrong and that is why each of us try to explain how we see things and put arguents on the table thanks for ur insight on that one also cyborg the part about the fly-paper hasnt been overlooked by my part, i have already discussed this above in a post concerning wether or not the carpet is sticky on both sides or not. i just think i have come to the conclusion that we will not agree on this part, i believe its an actual carpet, i think i can argument for that as well or even better then u guys can for ur opinions

cyborg wrote:
"A person IS a surface.
At least, the outer layer of them is."

then why make the destinction and emphasis on or in the spell description? ur right a person can and should be considered a surface, but again thats not where the disagreement is, the problem is HOW does the CoA appear on the person and the spell does not specify - i have my interpretation u have urs

Cyborg wrote:
"IF that was the official intent, then there would be some indication of this in the spell. Magic Net, for example, mentions the possibility of the target dodging. CoA does not.
Therefore, the most logical conclusion is that CoA cannot be dodged."

again cyborg im not disagreeing, u miss the point, i believe this aspect of the spell makes it too powerful for a low level spell, its save and be entangled no matter what. i think the target should be able to dodge (because i interpret the CoA as an entangling carpet that comes flying) the spell attack, or save and ignore the effects completely - thats it - ignore it if u disagree i dont give a flying ****. i have written this 4 times now and this will be the last

the spell lacks a description of exactly happens to entangled victims, i have asked for this several times as well, if anybody bothers to read my previous posts u will find my questions, if not - ok ill figure it out on my own

c ya

[Killer Cyborg]

ur right the spell does not specify and thats the problem, so u basically repeated the problem, bravo and yes we could both be right or wrong and that is why each of us try to explain how we see things and put arguents on the table thanks for ur insight on that one also cyborg

Okay. I wasn't sure from your posts if you understood all that.
Glad to know that we're on the same page.

i just think i have come to the conclusion that we will not agree on this part, i believe its an actual carpet, i think i can argument for that as well or even better then u guys can for ur opinions

Or at least as hard.

cyborg wrote:
"A person IS a surface.
At least, the outer layer of them is."

then why make the destinction and emphasis on or in the spell description?

So that people don't try to cast the spell in mid-air.

Cyborg wrote:
"IF that was the official intent, then there would be some indication of this in the spell. Magic Net, for example, mentions the possibility of the target dodging. CoA does not.
Therefore, the most logical conclusion is that CoA cannot be dodged."

again cyborg im not disagreeing, u miss the point, i believe this aspect of the spell makes it too powerful for a low level spell, its save and be entangled no matter what. i think the target should be able to dodge (because i interpret the CoA as an entangling carpet that comes flying) the spell attack, or save and ignore the effects completely - thats it - ignore it if u disagree i dont give a flying ****. i have written this 4 times now and this will be the last

If you want to house-rule things to make the spell more balanced, that's okay by me.

[Killer Cyborg]

Take a look at the Book Of Magic, page 99. It shows someone stuck to the floor with what looks like gooey strands. Based on that picture, I'd say that the spell creates a type of glue causes area of effect to become sticky.

It even has him stuck to the floor and to a barrel beside him.

Anyone accepting defeat?

You're hilarious!! An artist's rendition has what to do with a spell description? You obviously couldn't draw CoA as an invisible force, just some guy standing there looking annoyed...hehe. Draw it as a carpet and you expect him to fly away.

I'm forced to agree with Shadowmagic that artists renderings aren't necessarily accurate. I count them as loose circumstantial evidence at best.

[The Beast]

You're still gonna have to elaborate.

The spell in its description states that it can be cast on a person, and then it says it is always a flat sheet. Get a piece of ply wood and you'll see why I'm having a hard time picturing the two statements in conjunction.

[The Beast]

From http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/magic.html:

204. Can a carpet of adhesion spell affect insubstantial beings such as energy beings and those with the intangibility power or D-Phase Temporal Spell/Phase power?
Answer: Since they are not there physically they will not be affected.

Wouldn't the same apply to teleporting out of it?

[DrBeau]

Can you just slip out of your shoes and fly out(jet pack) maybe?

Sure you could. Of course, you've just compromised your EBA and you're now running around with no shoes. You would also have to have something (like said jetpack) to get up and away from the carpet.

[elecgraystone]

I've thought this spell was the most overpowered spell for a long time.
Why not use this as the best defensive spell ever? Since the carpet seems to make the target immune to damage (giant robots and supernatural strength can't tear free of SAND), why not just cast it on yourself and make yourself immune to damage? If your flying when you cast it, you can still move around.
A 4th level spell that holds ANYTHING not 100% immune to magic in place from slug to god to a 1000' robot to a battle ship unless they can teleport/phase/negate it even with a save seems just a little strong to me.

Lets look at CoA vs another 4ht level spell magic net.
COA/magic net
30' per level range vs fixed 60'
2.5 min per level vs 2 melee duration
10'X20' vs 10'X10'
ppe10 ck: vs 7 ppe
save means still stuck for 2d6 melee vs dodge negates and net can be cut through in 2 melee if failed.
Can effect small planets vs 1-6 human sized victims.
Victim stuck in place vs. helpless.

So CoA is better in almost every way except ppe cost (3 higher) and effect (net makes helpless, but a simple concussion grenade will do the same for CoA).

Here's how i use CoA. For me i let giant robots, supernatural strength and large vehicles break out in a number of actions/rounds depending on surface and victims size/strength plus penalties. A 100' giant robot steping on sand would have to take out an action to break free and have a -1 combat rolls until the spell wears off. A supernatural strength human sized creature on an MDC object would have to pull/pry dealing 1/2 strength damage until he can break that section free and have to deal with a minus to combat rolls depending on the size of the carpet(-1 to -6 minus) until the spell wears off. This brings it back into the 4th level spell range.