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This book ROCKS!!!!

Filled with wonderful new toys! more toys! and still more toys!!! TW ones too! joy!!!!

The E-Clip recharger should have been in the main book all along. It would have nipped in the bud that E-clip recharging thread a little ways back. People saying you had to have special skills to plug in what amounts to a frigging battery Come on!

I LOVE the Vibro-Rasor wire! Totaly cool. Solves the problem of MDC critters from getting in to your camp because they can ignore the "mearly" SDC barbed wire

The Megaconcrete is great! Just add water and blam! Instant mega damage concrete! Put a MDC wall where you've always wanted one! Great for quick fixes to fortifactions, making durable buildings, roads, etc.

Go Wilk's!!! I love that company! They make the coolest stuff! Laser sights, swords, bee-hive greandes! Their commo gear rocks! Being a commo guy in the (US) Army, let me tell yah, I think that stuff is top notch! Sure I might be a little biased but hey it's cool new stuff for PCs.

On the whole, I would say this is a definite keeper book. Ranks up there with the first Mercenary book and source book one as must haves

GMastEr wrote:I quite liked the book, although I also noticed several errors and more often than not, odd figures.

(i) The Viper HMG (pg. 100)... its a 15mm SDC machinegun. My problem with it? 110,000 credits, thats what. Who in their right mind would pay money for this weapon, especially when the likes of .50 HMG's and miniguns are available at a fraction of the price (8000-15,000 credits)?

(ii) The TR-004... why did A.R.C.H.I.E put a Shemarrian railgun on it? Isn't that asking for trouble? The text mentions that "he may have made a tactical error". I thought the little toaster was paranoid and highly secretive... unless this is meant as some kind of taster for plots to come.

(iii) The NG-ML6 Mini-Missile Cannon (pp. 94). Isn't this a WI-23 Missile Launcher that costs over twice as much with inferior balance? And isn't the NG-1001 just the NG-S202 with a different name?

(iv) The reconditioned F-16 (pp. 132). 36 million credits. Why? It has 100 MDC and inferior weapons systems. Surely even the NG Dragonfly, at around an 18th of the cost would be a more sensible purchase?

(v) Most of the sniper rifles have around a 2000ft range, pitiful damage and shots. So why not purchase the venerable Wilks 457, still one of the best value weapons on the market? Not to mention the JA-12, but even I consider that weapon to be far too overpowered.

(vi) My personal favourite. The Flying Dragon Techno-Wizard Power Armour on page 156. It has fairly low MDC, no in-built weapon systems and only a few spell capabilities. And how much is MageFire asking for a single unit? 900,000,000,000 credits. You heard me.

900,000 million credits.

For that kind of money, an army could purchase 281 Wrath of God Destroyers from Naruni Enterprises! It's one of the best misprints I've seen in a roleplaying book, EVER. Great stuff.

Still, its not all bad. I quite liked the Samson variants and new Northern Gun power armour, and some of the equipment wasn't bad. I still don't understand why Techno-Wizard items are ludicrously expensive though.

Is it Billion as your number suggests or is it Million as the text says?

GMastEr wrote:I quite liked the book, although I also noticed several errors and more often than not, odd figures.

(i) The Viper HMG (pg. 100)... its a 15mm SDC machinegun. My problem with it? 110,000 credits, thats what. Who in their right mind would pay money for this weapon, especially when the likes of .50 HMG's and miniguns are available at a fraction of the price (8000-15,000 credits)?

(ii) The TR-004... why did A.R.C.H.I.E put a Shemarrian railgun on it? Isn't that asking for trouble? The text mentions that "he may have made a tactical error". I thought the little toaster was paranoid and highly secretive... unless this is meant as some kind of taster for plots to come.

(iii) The NG-ML6 Mini-Missile Cannon (pp. 94). Isn't this a WI-23 Missile Launcher that costs over twice as much with inferior balance? And isn't the NG-1001 just the NG-S202 with a different name?

(iv) The reconditioned F-16 (pp. 132). 36 million credits. Why? It has 100 MDC and inferior weapons systems. Surely even the NG Dragonfly, at around an 18th of the cost would be a more sensible purchase?

(v) Most of the sniper rifles have around a 2000ft range, pitiful damage and shots. So why not purchase the venerable Wilks 457, still one of the best value weapons on the market? Not to mention the JA-12, but even I consider that weapon to be far too overpowered.

(vi) My personal favourite. The Flying Dragon Techno-Wizard Power Armour on page 156. It has fairly low MDC, no in-built weapon systems and only a few spell capabilities. And how much is MageFire asking for a single unit? 900,000,000,000 credits. You heard me.

900,000 million credits.

For that kind of money, an army could purchase 281 Wrath of God Destroyers from Naruni Enterprises! It's one of the best misprints I've seen in a roleplaying book, EVER. Great stuff.

Still, its not all bad. I quite liked the Samson variants and new Northern Gun power armour, and some of the equipment wasn't bad. I still don't understand why Techno-Wizard items are ludicrously expensive though.

I particularly liked how the NG "Mega" Crossbow had the same draw weight as the NA-SW4 M.D.C. bow but does worse damage.

How the NG-SSL20 "Super' Sniper Rifle was one of the worst Sniper Rifles in the book, not the "most deadly, high-powered laser sniper rifle on the North American continent."

M.D.C. materials now unequivocally do Mega-Damage if used to replace S.D.C. materials in a weapon.

"FLIR" Binoculars (I wonder when SLIR Binoculars are coming out).

The Wilk's Laser Sword Lightsaber can't be thrown (and can't parry oddly enough).

A character with HTH Assassin at second level can do more damage on a empty-handed choke in a melee round than anyone can do with a garrote.

60mm Mortars do the same damage as 81mm Mortars (which is the same damage as a 40mm grenade launcher) and suddenly no longer have weapon sights and can't be aimed.

An "S.D.C." M1A2 Abrams can easily blow away the "M.D.C." M1A3, since it's 120mm gun can out-range the pitiful 120mm "Auto-cannon" on the M1A3 by at least twice the distance, and it does more damage (Heck, you'd be better off swapping the M1A3's crappy gun for a grenade launcher, any grenade launcher).

I also like how the A-10 got shafted for ordinance.

After seeing how well done Merc Town was, I have to admit I was disappointed by this book.

Well yah the A-10 really got underated but over all I liked the book very much. You just have to look past some things...like most of rifts:)

MorganKeyes wrote:
Some? Try most of the things in this book. Anyone with even passing knowledge of hardware would need to drink methanol and go blind to overlook alot of this trash.

I understand overlooking stuff. I understand, "it's just a game". But if you're going to do a book about hardware, and then use real world examples (if Bloody old examples, especially by Coming of the Rifts), then one should at least do passing research. Even accounting for "imperfect immitations" and "changes with new tech" the GAW stuff is just so divorced from their real world examples, Palladium may as well have called them anything but their real world names and saved some of us the upset.

There's alot more in this book that isn't even SWAG'd (Scientific Wild @$$ed Guess), but more like numbers pulled out of a hat that about the only thing I can reasonably use it for is the line art and hope to recycle the basic concepts, but not the mechanics.

Some stuff is okay, some interesting mines and accessories. But much more is lost to just bad (or no) balancing, poor concepts, unsupported rationalizations, and just plain bad designs that I would expect to find on a bad fan site and not a company publication.

I got the same impression after reading a friends copy. Mostly good ideas just really badly implemented and poorly designed. All they need to do is some research and stuff like NG-SSL20 "Super' Sniper Rifle would actually make sense. One gets the impression that they expected us not to notice. As for the prices of some items. They just make no sense. No company in their right mind would sell at so high prices. Nor would any merc company spend money on some of these items. Not unless they had to.

Did even proof read this book before releasing it? Did they get Rocky and Bullwinkle to make some of these designs? "Hey Rocky watch me pull another Rifts weapon/armor design out of my hat". That trick always works".

Here I thought with Rifts Ultimate edition stuff like this would be a thing of the past. I guess not.

OK yah the prices need a lot of work but that describes the prices for every bot, power armor, or what ever in every rifts book to date. Just by comparing the bounties offered by the ten most wanted to the costs of these items and we can see a huge difference. Even you you bagged a couple of these guys it wouldn't pay for many of the robots, tanks, etc. listed so far in the game. What's worse is that chances are if you had such equipment as starting characters, you got them busted up during the capture in the first place. Now you got to try to repair them on those bounties? It's a wonder any merc company can afford to be in buisness

Just remember to keep the criticism constructive!!!

The Deific NMI wrote:Just remember to keep the criticism constructive!!!

I am! I'm suggesting they increase the pay outs for contracts or lower the prices of things.

Like I said earlyer, over all, even with all it's faults, I like the book.

Imho they should release either some errata on the site or in an upcoming Rifter article. Some of the items in the book do make sense and are good but try finding player characters with that kind of money to throw around. It seems like they made a book of goodies that no one can afford.

Though I will say the book is worth picking up if you have a mercenary type Rifts game or are stuck for ideas.

I will say that I am disappointed that they released the book with those type of prices. Then again whenever someone even hints at any type of logic in a Rifts game one gets flooded with "This is Rifts it does not need to be logical" comment from many a fan. So I can't say I am suprised at the prices.

Sureshot wrote:Imho they should release either some errata on the site or in an upcoming Rifter article. Some of the items in the book do make sense and are good but try finding player characters with that kind of money to throw around. It seems like they made a book of goodies that no one can afford.
Though I will say the book is worth picking up if you have a mercenary type Rifts game or are stuck for ideas.

I will say that I am disappointed that they released the book with those type of prices. Then again whenever someone even hints at any type of logic in a Rifts game one gets flooded with "This is Rifts it does not need to be logical" comment from many a fan. So I can't say I am suprised at the prices.

Yeah in some games that may be true but I'd say that many group's games are about amassing wealth and useing said wealth to increase your wealth (takes money to make money) and power. Most role players have a fascination about amassing money... a pretty common fantasy if you think about it. Why would Rifts be any different considering it already tends tward power gaming?

your more likley to hear a character in game say "millions of credits?... pah I have billions!" than you are to hear "damn that costs too much".....Well probably not but (I know its called an OVERSTATEMENT) you get my drift...money is an intergral part of any society and is coveted by most people and will be a LARGE part of any fantasy game...so big bankrolls and inflated prices are to be expected to an extent.

Though I do agree the equipment prices compaired to the bounties and income a merc group can expect are way off from what others say. (I don't know first hand... my books will be here soon ). All I can say is Palladium has never been good at math ...that means we are left to work it out ourselves

Sometimes I think for all the work we all must contribute to make rifts work there should be some form of compensation... like a free T-shirt that says "I fixed Rifts and all I got was this lousy T-shirt"

I think the art could have been better

GMastEr wrote:I quite liked the book, although I also noticed several errors and more often than not, odd figures.

(iv) The reconditioned F-16 (pp. 132). 36 million credits. Why? It has 100 MDC and inferior weapons systems. Surely even the NG Dragonfly, at around an 18th of the cost would be a more sensible purchase?

I agree completely, this is a totally ridiculous price for a moderately capable, fuel-powered aircraft. What's even more ridiculous is that the book actually claims that the aircraft are are offered at less than half of what a comparable aircraft costs. I have no idea what they were thinking when they wrote that, because the Grey Falcon costs $20 million and has a nulcear powered engine, VTOL capabilities, and better weapons and armour than the F-16 or A-10. So why would anyone EVER spend upwards of $35 million on a rebuilt F-16 or A-10 when the Grey Falcon is cheapter and far more capable? If you divide the cost of the rebuilt F-16 and A-10 by ten however, the prices are just about right. Around 3.5 million credits is reasonable considering they're fuel powered vehicles and don't have any advanced nulcear power supplies, electronics, or robotic systems. Anything more than 3-4 million and the characters are better of buying ANYTHING else for air support (NG Sky King, Iron Eagle helicopter, Flying Titan and so on).

The Deific NMI wrote:Just remember to keep the criticism constructive!!!

Then I constructively recommend playtests of all books before going to print. If the list of criticisms that have appeared so far had been available to PB before going to print, then none of those issues would have appeared in the book, and then almost everyone would be gushing over the book, instead of only some people. This tends to translate into higher sales.

Sureshot wrote:Imho they should release either some errata on the site or in an upcoming Rifter article.

An excellent idea!

Sureshot wrote:I will say that I am disappointed that they released the book with those type of prices. Then again whenever someone even hints at any type of logic in a Rifts game one gets flooded with "This is Rifts it does not need to be logical" comment from many a fan. So I can't say I am suprised at the prices.

See my sig below.

Dr. Doom v.3.1.1 wrote:

Preacher wrote:The A-10 Inspired by Owen Johnson from The Rifter is in there although not nearly as beefed up as the one in the Rifter.

Personal Fave of old Vehicles is the Blackhawk. Of course that is because I was Army.

What is up with all the conversions of things that were outdated 100 years before the coming of the rifts?

My website has a lot of later production stuff from the 21st century included in it, manufactured by a company in our game called S-Mart. (Yes, that's right, Shop Smart, Shop S-Mart! )

However, a good explanation exists as to WHY the types common to us today may survive to see the cataclysm and subsequently to see refurbishment by places like Golden Age Armaments.

Even today discussions of retiring modern fighter aircraft for UCAVs has been made. UCAV 'pilots' can hand off their aircraft mid way through a flight, and risk nothing of themselves even in the harshest of combat circumstances. Complete automation removes even that human element to operations. HOWEVER, a small number of manned fighter units would probably be retained. They would be kept entirely for emergency purposes, and for the training of fighter pilots for such emergencies. The emergency in question is the event of the GPS and/or UCAV control satellites being destroyed by a foreign power. Likely the absolute best aircraft would be used by these vestigial manned units previously mentioned. Meanwhile the governments of the world would likely entomb their second rate manned aircraft in hardened and environmentally sound shelters in an effort to preserve them for this sort of emergency, since the numbers of the most advanced types would not be sufficient to encompass all aerial combat operations.

This explains rather well why we have not seen a great deal of new military technology from the late 21st century, in RIFTS, except in the form of a handful of technical specifications that have survived to allow later powers to knock-off the old designs, or improve on them in some cases. Stuff like the F-22 and F-35 were probably not entombed because they were still active, as the reserve element to the largely UCAV air forces in the USAF.

That's just my 2 Allied Credits worth though...

A interesting theory but it doesnt explain why then, if everything went to UAVs, such things as the SAMAS and Glitterboy were around and in numbers. Don't forget about the New Navy too. All their gear is pre-rifts design and they have no unmanned vehicles.

Most likely it is because the writers thought it would be cool to do some of their favorite vehicles of today as Rifts models.

The in game explanation of GAW "finding" them and restoring them is as close to a reason why as we will ever likely see from Palladium.

RainOfSteel wrote:

The Deific NMI wrote:Just remember to keep the criticism constructive!!!

Then I constructively recommend playtests of all books before going to print. If the list of criticisms that have appeared so far had been available to PB before going to print, then none of those issues would have appeared in the book, and then almost everyone would be gushing over the book, instead of only some people. This tends to translate into higher sales.

I agree some further playtesting needs to be done so this sort of thing happens less. And I like your sig too bad Palladium imo does not follow it.

Toc Rat wrote:A interesting theory but it doesnt explain why then, if everything went to UAVs, such things as the SAMAS and Glitterboy were around and in numbers. Don't forget about the New Navy too. All their gear is pre-rifts design and they have no unmanned vehicles.

Most likely it is because the writers thought it would be cool to do some of their favorite vehicles of today as Rifts models.

The in game explanation of GAW "finding" them and restoring them is as close to a reason why as we will ever likely see from Palladium.

... that you present. The only real possibility is that perhaps 'people' didn't operate the equipment mentioned. It may be possible that they had adapters that allowed a remote control receiver to be linked to the system that allowed a person to pilot it entirely in safety, similarly to Triax's experimentations into using VR soldiers in operating robots. On the other hand they may have had androids like the skelebot operating them entirely with a human commander. Giving it the possibility of carrying a human operator in addition to the options of remote control/android control would give the equipment type considerable versatility.

As for the New Navy's lack of UCAVs (Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicles), this could be easily explained, as the cataclysm resulted in the majority of satellites being destroyed by automated systems. This would have rendered the New Navy's UCAVs completely useless, and thus they would have been disposed of, adapted for direct human operation (Say perhaps the Manta was a UCAV?), or if indeed the Manta was at one time a UCAV maybe it was built to accommodate either human or remote control. The S-14/16 on the other hand may have been entirely human operated, which would have made it an outdated machine, similar to some of the weapons used by the New Navy Marines.

I don't mean to argue the point - but just proposing that this is a possibility.

Toc Rat wrote:Most likely it is because the writers thought it would be cool to do some of their favorite vehicles of today as Rifts models.

The in game explanation of GAW "finding" them and restoring them is as close to a reason why as we will ever likely see from Palladium.

Well, my inclination would be to pretend GAW doesn't exist in my Rifts universe, and that solves a great many problems about where all those vehicles came from.

Art?
Someone mentioned that the art could've been better. Why is that? (don't have the book yet...hoping to get it this weekend)

Is there a lot of anime type art?

I have to say that Freddie Williams is the best artist, in my opinion, to grace the pages of any Palladium product in a long time.

There are some styles in the last half dozen or so books that just are not my cup of tea.

My reasoning for the lack of UAV, UCAV and similar - in the golden age there were a number of "incidents" when, despite all the best efforts of engineers and programmers, unmaned combat systems ddid horible things like blowing up hospitals or inflciting massive friendly fire casualties.

The resulting public backlash from what would have been an eventually solvable technical problem was enough to put most of the world's militaries off of unmaned combat systems, or to restrict those systems to being low powered and operating directly under human supervision.

Zylo wrote:
Like that new movie coming out - Stealth. AI gone bad!

Common theme. the first thing I though of when I saw that movie trailer was Macross Plus

SirTenzan wrote:... that you present. The only real possibility is that perhaps 'people' didn't operate the equipment mentioned. It may be possible that they had adapters that allowed a remote control receiver to be linked to the system that allowed a person to pilot it entirely in safety, similarly to Triax's experimentations into using VR soldiers in operating robots. On the other hand they may have had androids like the skelebot operating them entirely with a human commander. Giving it the possibility of carrying a human operator in addition to the options of remote control/android control would give the equipment type considerable versatility.

As for the New Navy's lack of UCAVs (Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicles), this could be easily explained, as the cataclysm resulted in the majority of satellites being destroyed by automated systems. This would have rendered the New Navy's UCAVs completely useless, and thus they would have been disposed of, adapted for direct human operation (Say perhaps the Manta was a UCAV?), or if indeed the Manta was at one time a UCAV maybe it was built to accommodate either human or remote control. The S-14/16 on the other hand may have been entirely human operated, which would have made it an outdated machine, similar to some of the weapons used by the New Navy Marines.

I don't mean to argue the point - but just proposing that this is a possibility.

Another good theory but then why does a SAMAS or Glitterboy have not only a area for a human to operate the vehicle in question but also creature comforst aswell? Such as A/C, food and water dispensors? Those are thigns required for long term use and not a "in case of satelite failure" backups. Having worked in and aorund M1A1s for 8 years, let me tell you, they have NO A/C and very little thought for creature comforts. Reduces the cost that way So why design something to be used by a remote pilot with all the comforts and controls a human would need/like? The penny pinchers would take one look at the design and scream for "cost reductions!"

Like I said, good thing to bring up, something I hadn't thought about honestly but it doesn't add up in terms of cost of developement and production.

On another point, simply taking out GAW's equipment is one route to go but personaly I would rather leave them in there and just reduce the cost.

Jefffar wrote:

Zylo wrote:
Like that new movie coming out - Stealth. AI gone bad!

Common theme. the first thing I though of when I saw that movie trailer was Macross Plus

Damn! I hadn't thought of that but you are soooo right! It is the plot for Macross Plus! I guess someone in Hollywood is copying anime plotlines...again...

Zylo wrote:
I'm not a big Macross fan, hence why you never see me on the Robotech boards. The smell of protoculture nauseates me.

Blasphemer!

Toc Rat wrote:
Another good theory but then why does a SAMAS or Glitterboy have not only a area for a human to operate the vehicle in question but also creature comforst aswell? Such as A/C, food and water dispensors? Those are thigns required for long term use and not a "in case of satelite failure" backups. Having worked in and aorund M1A1s for 8 years, let me tell you, they have NO A/C and very little thought for creature comforts. Reduces the cost that way So why design something to be used by a remote pilot with all the comforts and controls a human would need/like? The penny pinchers would take one look at the design and scream for "cost reductions!"

Like I said, good thing to bring up, something I hadn't thought about honestly but it doesn't add up in terms of cost of developement and production.

On another point, simply taking out GAW's equipment is one route to go but personaly I would rather leave them in there and just reduce the cost.

Interesting, a friendly debate!

Like I was saying, perhaps the power armor suits were dual use, they could be used in the field by humans or via a remote control adapter that hooked into the system's GPS, and secured sat-radio channels. (Naturally these systems would no longer have any applicable use in RIFTS - until some TW superpower decides to use teleportation in conjunction with a telescope, outfitting space combat vehicles with invisibility! Bye-bye orbital stations, but I digress...)

Why the A/C? Perhaps it's a standard feature that comes with various universal environmental systems then in use? It would certainly permit extended duration human operations without having to crack the armor as often as a suit that wasn't furnished with such creature comforts. Meanwhile it could also serve to help keep the electronics of whatever systems were installed to allow the remote control VR operations within their typical operating temperatures, or perhaps they are merely turned off when used by automated systems. As for the GB's food paste dispenser - I'm at a loss to explain that one, except to say that this feature was only used when humans operated it on long marches. ON the other hand this may be a vestigial feature retained into the post apocalyptic era after they were fitted by NEMA. During the cataclysm soldiers would be forced to remain in their suits for extreme durations without the option of cracking the suit for refreshment. However this would go on to state that those recovered from buried military facilities would not have this feature.

You do have a good point that these features do not add up well for development/production costs, but stranger things have happened. For all we know in the 2050s a group of soldiers in early urban combat power armor suits, were cut off from supply, and literally died of heat stroke and critical dehydration in whatever middle-eastern hellhole they were stuck in! The families of the fallen may have approached Congress about this issue and forced a bill that indicated that all current and subsequent types will be fitted with these features - even those with dual applications that would come later.

In this country, at least, it's possible!

SirTenzan wrote:Interesting, a friendly debate!

I know Who would have thought that could happen here?