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Qev wrote:

KLM wrote:My points:
1, yes, should be able to take out an average opponent, with an average
weapon, in one solid hit. But it is not the possible by the book.

That really depends on the combat paradigm one is dealing with. In our modern world, yes, your average soldier can typically be taken out of commission with a single bullet. But there's nothing that says that this always has to be true. Rifts is a world full of fictional supertechnology, where materials science development seems to have outstripped that of weapons science.

Another game system where this is true would be Steve Jackson Games' "OGRE" series.

Furthermore, IF you can take out an average opponent, with an average weapon, in one solid hit, then what the heck is the point of MDC armor!?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Qev wrote:

KLM wrote:My points:
1, yes, should be able to take out an average opponent, with an average
weapon, in one solid hit. But it is not the possible by the book.

That really depends on the combat paradigm one is dealing with. In our modern world, yes, your average soldier can typically be taken out of commission with a single bullet. But there's nothing that says that this always has to be true. Rifts is a world full of fictional supertechnology, where materials science development seems to have outstripped that of weapons science.

Another game system where this is true would be Steve Jackson Games' "OGRE" series.

Furthermore, IF you can take out an average opponent, with an average weapon, in one solid hit, then what the heck is the point of MDC armor!?

That is the question...I personally feel that only special guns (like the boomgun & ATL 7 from South America 2) should be able to take out average opponents in a single solid hit.

Hi there!

Killer Cyborg wrote:Furthermore, IF you can take out an average opponent, with an average weapon, in one solid hit, then what the heck is the point of MDC armor!?

If you thought I wanted a one roll-one kill thing, rest
assured, I am not.

It is more like, that you have to get into position
with you sniper, wait for the right moment to when
the enemy looks up, leaving his throat vulnerable
and try to hit it (say, called shot with -2) and still
having to do like 11+ MD to penetrate.

Alternatively you can try one shot in the eye (on old style
CS deadboy armor only), which is also a called shot, with
-3, and also doing in the area of like 10 MD.

It means several good ideas to get into position,
skill in "prowl", luck not to be noticed while you are
aiming and after a shot getting the hell out there.

And it is not like kneeling down with your JA-12,
from like 1100 meters from a CS squad, and kill
them all one by one within a melee or maybe two.

Adios
KLM

Hi there!

Thinyser wrote:That is the question...I personally feel that only special guns (like the boomgun & ATL 7 from South America 2) should be able to take out average opponents in a single solid hit.

Do you realise, that this means that sniper or
assassin type characters are forced to use
anti tank weapons?

Adios
KLM

We need a sniper rifle that does single shot only, ridiculous damage, but with a serious recoil. That way, firing non aimed shots, or "on the blink" would have even further pentalites.

This is the reason snipers don't run around plinking away at folks in heavy combat with a 5ft rifle =p

Incase anyone with extreme gun knowledges reads this, I know it isnt entirely accurate, but in film/movies/books/games etc, this is how it works (for effect and balance) and thats all im trying to imply here.

Like, if there was a rifle that did like

1D8x10+10
The entire back of the rifle could be like a mini reactor that generates the power needed to deal that kinda damage. It has to warm up (during the "aim" part of the shot, you'll hear the "hrmmmmmmmm" of like a generator starting up), then when it fires, it kicks the gun and user back (think like a 10 gauge) and then needs 3 seconds to cool down (can't fire it next action)
On an aimed shot, no penalty to strike
Without aiming, the kick causes a severe issue with aiming, incurring a -3 to hit
If firing wild, it ups it to a -15 (including the 10 from shooting wild)

For anyone STILL worried about the damage, feel free to go ahead and make up some kinda special laser only meant to damage "lighter" metals and materials.

Most MDC construction is done the same give or take, well im sure due to weight issues and overall protection, body armor and tanks, dont use the same stuff (unless it says otherwise)
SO, this laser only deals that kinda stupid damage to "light" ceramic armors and not MDC steel, composite metals etc.

So basically, it works on body armor, and light power armor, but it wont be doing that hellacious damage to tanks, heavy PA, etc.

It can do a respectable 5D6 or something.

See, now that would make a good sniper rifle, for the purposes of sniping and possibly 1-shotting the target, which is what snipers do

KLM wrote:Hi there!

Killer Cyborg wrote:Furthermore, IF you can take out an average opponent, with an average weapon, in one solid hit, then what the heck is the point of MDC armor!?

If you thought I wanted a one roll-one kill thing, rest
assured, I am not.

It is more like, that you have to get into position
with you sniper, wait for the right moment to when
the enemy looks up, leaving his throat vulnerable
and try to hit it (say, called shot with -2) and still
having to do like 11+ MD to penetrate.

Alternatively you can try one shot in the eye (on old style
CS deadboy armor only), which is also a called shot, with
-3, and also doing in the area of like 10 MD.

It means several good ideas to get into position,
skill in "prowl", luck not to be noticed while you are
aiming and after a shot getting the hell out there.

And it is not like kneeling down with your JA-12,
from like 1100 meters from a CS squad, and kill
them all one by one within a melee or maybe two.

Adios
KLM

Nets out the same.

KLM wrote:Hi there!

Thinyser wrote:That is the question...I personally feel that only special guns (like the boomgun & ATL 7 from South America 2) should be able to take out average opponents in a single solid hit.

Do you realise, that this means that sniper or
assassin type characters are forced to use
anti tank weapons?

Adios
KLM

Because anybody with MDC armor and weapons in Rifts is supposed to be the equivilant of a 20th century tank, I think that it's only appropriate that anti-tank weapons should be required.

IF you want your PCs to get one-shot kills, all you have to do is put them up against characters in weaker armor.
A character with an NG-P7 has a 50% chance of killing a person in Plastic Man armor in a single headshot
They have a 25% chance of killing a person in Urban Warrior, Juicer Plate, or Huntsman armor with a single headshot.
And that's without rolling a critical hit.

IF you really want snipers to be effective in the game, allow them to get the "One Life, One Shot, One Hit, One Kill" ability from p. 122 of N&S.

Of you could house-rule that the +2 bonus from the Sniper skill counts as a natural bonus, so any snipers crit on 18+ instead of just a natural 20.

KLM wrote:Hi there!

Thinyser wrote:That is the question...I personally feel that only special guns (like the boomgun & ATL 7 from South America 2) should be able to take out average opponents in a single solid hit.

Do you realise, that this means that sniper or
assassin type characters are forced to use
anti tank weapons?

Adios
KLM

Heavy weapons are needed to defeat MDC armor IN ONE SHOT because a suit of MDC armor is supposed to make you a walking tank. If you could take your everyday laser rifle an pop a single shot into somebody's neck or eye and take them out then the purpose of wearing the armor in the first place is almost moot.

As Killer Cyborg has said if you broke down the MDC of a piece of armor to each square inch you would find that even an average laser would easily penitrate it ANYWHERE on the body. This is not how armor in Rifts works.

Bottom line if you want to do a single shot kill get a BFG of some sort and go for it, but don't tell me that an average rifle should be able to take out an average armored opponent in one shot...even if you take the time to set up a shot at a vulberale area....Remember, a suit of MDC armor is supposed to make you a walking tank.

Hi there!

OK, what use of the C-10 rifle?
It is attributed to be an excellent
and favourite sniper rifle (aside
from the scope), yet unusable.

I want those stuff made usable
by sound rules, not my players
munching up anti-tank weapons.

Adios
KLM

R Ditto wrote:I'm back with muy opinions and views on the subject.
About the lightbulb example I gave.
One of the latest estimates I did (thanks to one of the more "accurate" bits of info about e-clip power, via a 'super power conversion', IIRC, in the new Conversion Book) indicated that roughly 10 e-clips equal 1 gigawatt of energy. That comes down to around 27,777 watt hours of energy for a single e-clip. (I round up to 28,000 just for kicks).
That is a lot of energy.

I did a math conversion of wattage to PPE to e-clips for a superhero character I was running in Rifts once. My GM was being pretty a**l about how much power I could draw off stuff, so I had to make conversion for everything to KW/e-clip. While I don't have the full list anymore, what I do have on spread sheet seems point to your math being off a bit. My conversion came up with a figure of roughly 50kW per e-clip. 1 PPE was equal to 8000 watts of power.

As to the burst rules, here's what I use in my games:
No longer do energy weapons burst like machine guns of old. All non-pulse weapons can also fire a double-tap for x2 damage. Now some confusion has come up as to which weapons are considered as pulse weapons and how much damage do they do. My reading on this is rather simple: First, all pulse weapons fire 3 simultaneous shots, doing x3 damage. Second, all weapons previously listed as pulse weapons do x3 the listed damage for a single shot. Third, all energy weapons that were previously listed as firing bursts (C-12, Q2-10, Q2-20,...) now are considered as pulse weapons and do damage x3.
As always, there is an exception. Heavy energy weapons (that fall under the like named WP) like the Free Quebec Q2-30 Rapid-Fire Heavy Laser can still fire bursts. They fire a set number of shots, depending on the type of burst. You should use the damage multiplier for the burst mode you use, versus using the damage that is listed in the description (which is usually nerfed lower than what the damage would be if you rolled it out). If you use my burst descriptions below, that should be damage for a single round x2 (short), x5 (long), or x10 (extended).

Burst Fire Ruling
Short Bursts: 5 rounds. Counts as one attack.
Single Target: Inflicts normal damage x2.
Spray: Inflicts normal damage for one round, hits 1D4-1 (minimum 1) targets.
Note: Pulse weapons can't spray.

Long Bursts: 10 rounds. Counts as two attacks. Chance of hitting innocent bystanders is 50%.
Single Target: Inflicts normal damage x5.
Spray: Inflicts normal damage x2, hits 1D6 targets.

Extended Burst: All rounds fired or up to 20 rounds. Counts as four attacks. Chance of hitting innocent bystanders is 70%.
Single Target: Inflicts normal damage x10.
Spray: Inflicts normal damage x4, hits 2D4 targets.

Bonus to strike/Number of attacks
Called Shots
Called Shots take up three actions, and you can pick your target location. Standard weapons get +3 to strike with WP, and fire a single shot only. Pulse weapons get +3 to strike with WP, and can fire single shot or pulse.

Aimed Shots
Aimed Shots take up two actions, and fire at the main body only. You are concentrating on hitting the target, not picking a location. Standard weapons get +3 to strike with WP, and fire a single shot only. Pulse weapons get +3 to strike with WP, and can fire single shot or pulse.

Standard
Standard fire is basically firing the weapon from your hip. You are trying to hit the target, but you aren't really aiming. The big benefit of this kind of firing is that you can walk while firing with no major penalties to strike (only -1). Standard weapons get +1 to strike with WP, and can fire a single shot or a double-tap. Pulse weapons get +1 to strike with WP, and can fire single shot or pulse.

Wild Fire
Firing Wild didn't really change. All the previous examples of firing wild still hold true, and there is still a -6 penalty to strike.

KLM wrote:Hi there!

OK, what use of the C-10 rifle?
It is attributed to be an excellent
and favourite sniper rifle (aside
from the scope), yet unusable.

I want those stuff made usable
by sound rules, not my players
munching up anti-tank weapons.

Adios
KLM

The C-10 isn't a sniper rifle; it's a light assault rifle.
It is used as a sniper rifle because it has a good (though unreliable) targeting system.

The use of it is this:
In theory, the world of Rifts is primarily full of SDC people with SDC weapons and gear. MDC gear is supposed to be the exception, not the rule. The Vagabond as portrayed in the original Rifts book is supposed to be the closest representantion of the average person, including the average trouble-maker for the CS.
A single 2d6 MD blast will kill any normal human without difficulty, often through any cover they might have. It will take out an SDC vehicle almost every time, as well as possibly taking out the pilot.

Against light MDC armor, the weapon can take the enemy out in a number of shots. Plastic Man can be taken out in 5 average shots, Huntsman in 6 average shots. That's not too bad, and that's not including headshots.
And if you're in a hurry, or up against heavy armor or vehicles, the C-10 assault rifle can (or rather, could) fire bursts and sprays for as much as 2d6x10 (later, 2d6x7) MD.

If you want an actual sniper rifle, look at the JA-11. It does 4d6 MD on a single shot, which is quite a bit more effective against lesser armor.

KLM wrote:Hi there!

OK, what use of the C-10 rifle?
It is attributed to be an excellent
and favourite sniper rifle (aside
from the scope), yet unusable.

I want those stuff made usable
by sound rules, not my players
munching up anti-tank weapons.

Adios
KLM

Then they will have to shoot the opponent more than once in most cases.

**EDIT** oh and the "Hi There!" at the start of each post gets old quick...you can omit that from now on.

if you want weapons to make sense Try Naruni Wave II , plenty of weapons to match theneeds of MDC races

Hi there! (*)

Killer Cyborg:
So... May I assume that you agree that
we either need decent rules (for sniping)
or the burst fire capacity? (Even XOR of
those two )


Thinyseer:
Shooting the opponent more than once is sometimes
not an option.

You know, the whole spec ops/sniper/assassin thing
is about the fact, that we do not want the opposition
to have a chance to inflict damagae or casualties
to our forces (this include the bodypart I am
sitting on atm).

(*) I am using this begin/end squence for a couple of
years now, and not going to abandon it. Trademark if you
like (or dislike).

Adios
KLM

Hi there!

Gomen_Nagai and AdeptPaladin:

Did you guys read the previous posts?

Adios
KLM

AdeptPaladin wrote:

Richter wrote:We need a sniper rifle that does single shot only, ridiculous damage, but with a serious recoil. That way, firing non aimed shots, or "on the blink" would have even further pentalites.

This is the reason snipers don't run around plinking away at folks in heavy combat with a 5ft rifle =p

NE-75H Shoulder Cannon. (40-100MD/shot x 8 = 320-800 MD)

And it's 6', not 5' in length ^_~

Take on a good scope or targetting system.. and get like, +3 to strike. Add in Sniper & WP bonus and you get about +8. Not bad.

BAH I dont own that book

Shoulder cannon really doesnt sound like a "sniper rifle" to me tho

Sounds like something very hard to prowl with =p

KLM wrote:Hi there! (*)

Killer Cyborg:
So... May I assume that you agree that
we either need decent rules (for sniping)
or the burst fire capacity? (Even XOR of
those two )

There already are decent rules for sniping: Hide, and wait until you get a clear shot. For example, when they take their helmet off...
Or simply shoot multiple times from a concealed position.

As for burst fire, the original burst/spray rules were pretty darn good. The only real problem was that they didn't take clip/belt size into account.
I haven't played Rifts lately, but next chance I get I plan to play by the official RUE rules for a bit, to see how it works.
The face of the game is changing and while I may not like those changes (nerfing ROF, etc), I feel I should give it a try before I try tampering with it.
(But I'll probably go back to using the original burst/spray rules as modified by CB1)

Thinyseer:
Shooting the opponent more than once is sometimes
not an option.

True.
In fact, sometimes victory is not an option.
We can't always get what we want.

(*) I am using this begin/end squence for a couple of
years now, and not going to abandon it. Trademark if you
like (or dislike).

Adios
KLM

I agree with Thiynser that it is irritating, but what the heck.
I can live with it.

What makes me sad is, I've had the old burst rules explained to me by like 8 people 10 times, and I still don't get all of it

Those rates of fire written for guns just drove me fricken nuts!

Basically I said F-it, and everything that isnt a heavy weapon is built like an M-16. Single, semi auto, and full auto. Pulse weapons just keep the pulse.

Pistols can double tap, (least as I understand that rule, the newer GMG's REMOVED the double tap rule, so I've never officially read it, anyone wanna copy/paste it for me?)

It was simple and seems to be working so...hell with it

Killer Cyborg wrote:Because anybody with MDC armor and weapons in Rifts is supposed to be the equivilant of a 20th century tank, I think that it's only appropriate that anti-tank weapons should be required.

You do know that the most modern day tanks (M1, Challenger, Leopard, Minerva, T-90) can possibly take each other out with a single tank round?

So if a Rifts character wearing EBA is the equivalent of a tank and his gun is the equivalent of the main gun on a tank one shot kills should be very very possible.

Being a sniper is cool. Everyone wants to be a sniper.

But maybe 'sniping' in the modern sense just isn't possible against armored opponents in Rifts. Again, unlike any other time in 'history', the materials science is apparently far ahead of weapons science, meaning you're going to have to pummel an armored target to death, not gracefully pop its head off.

Perhaps this is just a fundamental facet of the Rifts environment?

Of course... being a sniper means more than having good aim. You also have to have good planning, and good timing. So you can't kill that CS officer with a sniper shot to the head, while he's wearing his heavy deadboy armor. He's got to take it off sometime, right? That is when a sniper strikes: when the target is unaware, vulnerable. It's kinda the whole point, isn't it?

It's super-armor, guys. This is like complaining that you can't snipe a modern-day opponent while they're inside the crew compartment of an APC (and I'm not talking about those .50 cal anti-material rifles! ). Of course you can't. You wait until he gets out.

KLM wrote:Hi there! (*)

(*) I am using this begin/end squence for a couple of
years now, and not going to abandon it. Trademark if you
like (or dislike).

Adios
KLM

Do you great before and salutize after every time you speak when you talk to someone?

If not why do you feel the need to do it here?

mdc by location makes sniping viable, blow off someone's legs, heads, shoulders and so on...



and yes I did read the thread, but Naruni WAVE II really has weapons that are more fitting for an MDC based campaign then one where people are fighting back and forth between Squishies.

jedi078 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Because anybody with MDC armor and weapons in Rifts is supposed to be the equivilant of a 20th century tank, I think that it's only appropriate that anti-tank weapons should be required.

You do know that the most modern day tanks (M1, Challenger, Leopard, Minerva, T-90) can possibly take each other out with a single tank round?

So if a Rifts character wearing EBA is the equivalent of a tank and his gun is the equivalent of the main gun on a tank one shot kills should be very very possible.

A guy in EBA with the right weapon can possibly take out another character in EBA with a single shot.

Qev wrote:Being a sniper is cool. Everyone wants to be a sniper.

But maybe 'sniping' in the modern sense just isn't possible against armored opponents in Rifts. Again, unlike any other time in 'history', the materials science is apparently far ahead of weapons science, meaning you're going to have to pummel an armored target to death, not gracefully pop its head off.

Perhaps this is just a fundamental facet of the Rifts environment?

Of course... being a sniper means more than having good aim. You also have to have good planning, and good timing. So you can't kill that CS officer with a sniper shot to the head, while he's wearing his heavy deadboy armor. He's got to take it off sometime, right? That is when a sniper strikes: when the target is unaware, vulnerable. It's kinda the whole point, isn't it?

It's super-armor, guys. This is like complaining that you can't snipe a modern-day opponent while they're inside the crew compartment of an APC (and I'm not talking about those .50 cal anti-material rifles! ). Of course you can't. You wait until he gets out.

Exactly.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
A guy in EBA with the right weapon can possibly take out another character in EBA with a single shot.

Killer Cyborg just to know your opinion.....

What do you consider "the right weapon" to kill in one shot?

I consider anything that does 30% of the MDC capacity of the item being hit able to penetrate the item. This means a helmet with 50 MDC needs to be hit by one single shot/blast that does more then 15 MDC. It still needs to be a called shot and two actions though.

The max damage from burst fire does not constitute as a single shot, since it is spread over the entire area of the item, pulse fire does, and I consider rail guns to fire one single round, not a number of slugs like the book says.

Even with my penetration rules fragments from explosions (grenades etc.) will still protect you quite nicely, which is what I consider EBA to actually protect you from.

Do the snipers of today have to contend with targets that wear helmet that cover the entire head?

It seems to be putting the horse before the cart a bit - "Snipers are cool because they can do one shot kills, thus if snipers can't do that something is wrong."

I've been watching this go back and forth, and the main issue that Palladium combat rules have is the fact that they are flat-out unbalanced and unrealistic.

Frankly, I'm surprised no-one has mentioned this. There aren't supposed to be one-shot kills. In fact, by the rules, a one man sniper or guerilla warfare type option wouldn't work, because you could never do enough damage to that CS patrol or Splugorth Slavers to make it unworkable for them to be in the area especially with the lack of bursting rules for MD weapons unless you have heavy anti-tank weapons, while today a single highly skilled person could cause a military patrol quite a bit of trouble if the patrol is inexperienced or the sniper has a good position with an excellent escape route.

With the explosion of MDC creatures (it seems like everybody except a human is now MDC sometimes, and then you have the Wormwood humans and Amazons and such others), is it any wonder that everybody and their brother has MDC armor and weapons. You couldn't survive otherwise.

So, just get rid of the idea of Rifts being balanced and you should get along fine with it. Battles are no longer the move and manuever that we are used to today where being shot probably takes you out of the battle, but more readily resemble Napoleanic or Pike and Musket warfare where lines of soldiers in MDC armor blast at each other until the other side falls down or flees, unfortunately, because you can take those 5 or 10 or 15 shots before dying.

So in Rifts, snipers should not exist in the way the world is set up. They would be wasting manpower that could be more useful in the line of battle and could never cause enough damage to make their use a viable option.

jedi078 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
A guy in EBA with the right weapon can possibly take out another character in EBA with a single shot.

Killer Cyborg just to know your opinion.....

What do you consider "the right weapon" to kill in one shot?

Depends on what armor you're up against.
But an NG-P7 can do 40 MD in a single shot, 80 MD on a crit.
How many suits of EBA can you find with more than 80 MDC in the helmet?
Many don't even have 40.

I consider anything that does 30% of the MDC capacity of the item being hit able to penetrate the item. This means a helmet with 50 MDC needs to be hit by one single shot/blast that does more then 15 MDC. It still needs to be a called shot and two actions though.

The max damage from burst fire does not constitute as a single shot, since it is spread over the entire area of the item, pulse fire does, and I consider rail guns to fire one single round, not a number of slugs like the book says.

Even with my penetration rules fragments from explosions (grenades etc.) will still protect you quite nicely, which is what I consider EBA to actually protect you from.

Laser pulses would hit the same spot, so an L-20 also makes a good weapon. 6d6 MD averages out to 21 MD per shot... using your penetration rules, that would take out most helmets.
Using the actual rules, you'd need 2 average shots or 1 lucky shot to take out a helmet (and head).

vitae_drinker wrote:With the explosion of MDC creatures (it seems like everybody except a human is now MDC sometimes, and then you have the Wormwood humans and Amazons and such others), is it any wonder that everybody and their brother has MDC armor and weapons. You couldn't survive otherwise.

Untrue.
There are a lot of types of MDC creatures around, but they're still supposed to be somewhat rare.
And not all MDC creatures constantly hunt and kill humans.
Many have animal intelligence, so loud noises, fire, and other things would keep them at bay or chase them off.
Or you might end up with a situation where a flesh-eating monster sets up outside of town, and the town stakes out sacrifices on a regular basis.
They get to live, the creature gets easy meals. Both live.

And, of course, people on Rifts Earth CAN still run and hide from things...

Noon wrote:Do the snipers of today have to contend with targets that wear helmet that cover the entire head?

It seems to be putting the horse before the cart a bit - "Snipers are cool because they can do one shot kills, thus if snipers can't do that something is wrong."

I have not gone through sniper school so I don't know if this is true but from what I have read....

Military snipers are trained to go for body shots because of the distances involved and police snipers go for head shots due to the hostage factor.

Also military snipers prefer the large caliber rifles for the really long shooting, because a 7.62 at far ranges will get stopped by a helmet (A Marine Corporal got hit in the forehead dead center and lived, the round must have been at end of its flight path. His squad came back for the body and found the guy alive rubbing his head.) and of course a SAPI plate will stop 7.62.

In rifts I don't see a problem with a sniper aiming at a weak points in the armor, such as where the neck meets the head elbow/knee joints etc. take off a leg or arm and their just as dead due to shock, and if they live through the shock there're out of the fight, and have to be taken care of.

That is another point, if you wound and not kill it takes two to three men to evacuate a wounded comrade. The Japanese used 8mm rounds in WWII (I think) that had the same effect.

If you watch StarWars you'll see a lot of Storm/Clone Troopers get hit, they are down and out of the fight but may still be alive.

Hi there!

I wanted to make a post about differences in
military snipers and law enforcement ones,
differences between hitting with a bullet and hitting
with a beam...

But what the hell, suspend reality from that side.

Now, imagine a world where an average infantryman
has to hit the other average infantryman like 5-7 times,
which mean about 10-15 shots.

Now, after this is proven in practice, everyone will
try to get HEAVY weapons. What will be its effects
to our players?
They will try to munch up NE-75Hs, tape together
particle beam rifles (a'la Aliens ), whatever.
(Yeah, of course a puny militia or a pacifist character
will stick to smaller arms, either by choice or because
they have the best aviable hardware....)

But the CS military will do it too, as well as NGR,
Splugies, etc...

Do we want it?

Adios
KLM

ps: Thinyser, I regularly greet people 3-4 times a day,
it comes with the age

KLM wrote:Hi there!

I wanted to make a post about differences in
military snipers and law enforcement ones,
differences between hitting with a bullet and hitting
with a beam...

But what the hell, suspend reality from that side.

Now, imagine a world where an average infantryman
has to hit the other average infantryman like 5-7 times,
which mean about 10-15 shots.

Now, after this is proven in practice, everyone will
try to get HEAVY weapons. What will be its effects
to our players?
They will try to munch up NE-75Hs, tape together
particle beam rifles (a'la Aliens ), whatever.
(Yeah, of course a puny militia or a pacifist character
will stick to smaller arms, either by choice or because
they have the best aviable hardware....)

But the CS military will do it too, as well as NGR,
Splugies, etc...

Do we want it?

Adios
KLM

ps: Thinyser, I regularly greet people 3-4 times a day,
it comes with the age

Don't know what "Age" you live in but today most people think its wierd to be greated multiple times in the same conversation...

And if you are talking about your own physical age then its not "comes with the age" its just "comes with age"...in which case I am sorry for your senility

Hi there!

It is wEIrd (not wierd), but gets me introduced to
pleasant strangers every day.

Also, I have left the computer, talked to family,
watched TV, then came back, so it is a another
session for me.

So, begin/end sequence stays.

Beside that, do you have an opinion about what is
between them )in my previous post?

Adios
KLM

After much personal debate over modern/high tech ranged combat rules, I have come to the following conclusions:

5 Categories of firing ranged weapons:

Wild shot (SS or pulse) - zero bonus to strike penalty, but high % hit (striking shots/missed shots).

Spray/wild burst (wide-angle burst) - high strike bonus, but low % hit (20 - 25%)

Burst/controlled burst (narrow-angle) - low strike bonus, but mid % hit (35 - 50%)

Aimed shot (SS or pulse) - high strike bonus and high % hit (66 - 100%) (2 attacks)

Called Shot (pin-point SS) - high strike bonus, 100% hit, but significant strike penalties based on target location. (2 attacks, I don't believe it should have to take 3 attacks, the strike penalties are enough)

Energy Weapon Burst Sizes and Damage Multipliers:
Strike bonus as per WP

Short burst: ~4 shots, damage x2 (50%)

Medium burst: ~10 shots, damage x4 (40%)

Long burst: ~20 shots, damage x7 (35%) (2 attacks)

Spray Sizes, Strike Bonus, and Damage multiplier:

Short spray: +1 strike, damage x1 (25%), multiple targets unlikely (10% if more than 1 target exposed)

Medium spray: +3 strike, damage x2 (20%), multiple targets reasonable (40% if more than 1 target exposed)

Long spray: +4 strike, damage x4 (20%), multiple targets likely (60% if more than 1 target exposed)

General Weapon Types and Firing Modes:

Energy pistol: single, short, and medium burst

Energy rifles: single, short, medium, and long burst

Heavy energy: single and short (limited to specific weapons)

*Anything designated pulse can either fire singe shot or the designated pulse burst.

Alejandro wrote:I've really got to go against the whole notion of "MDC body armor is supposed to make you into a walking tank." By that rationale, where's the tank's gun? When you use that analogy you have to accept that you're basically saying that the point of Rifts militaries is to field an army of main battle tanks...that are all equipped with only 20mm cannons instead of actual tank cannons. Yes, you'll eventually whittle away your opponent's armor...but it'll take time and that time is something you can't afford to waste.

With the sniper concept of "you don't shoot APC's with a normal sniper rifle" that's true...but no sniper is going to be on the lookout for a platoon of APC's to harrass. You match the weapon to the job and if a sniper is meant to kill armored opponents then why suggest the sniper should "make due" with a sniper rifle that does 4d6? "Wait till the opponent takes the helmet off" is a terrible idea in any kind of warfare and is only a viable option if the sniper is preying upon an enemy encampment....not trying to keep the enemy out of an area.

Armor technology has outpaced weapons technology.
Snipers aren't as effective as they used to be.
Welcome to Rifts.

Alejandro wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Armor technology has outpaced weapons technology.
Snipers aren't as effective as they used to be.
Welcome to Rifts.

Ah yes....armor technology not only outpaced weapons technology and mankind has been unable to build a tank gun that does more than 1d6x10 MD. I'm going to have to go with poorly thought out writing over technological advances.

It's not poorly thought out writing in the case of the body armor vs. snipers.
If a sniper can shoot through EBA reliably with a single shot, then so could other weapons. Which would make body armor barely worth having (if at all).
The point of armor is to stop people from easily killing you.

A sniper can still fulfill his function just fine on Rifts Earth under the current rules, with the current weaponry.
Getting a one-shot kill is great, but it's not what being a sniper is about.
Being a sniper is about shooting the enemy from a concealed position.
Which is perfectly possible in Rifts.
His job is harder than it would be if nobody wore armor, or if his weapon could always penetrate armor in one shot, but that's not a huge deal.

Vehicle weapons doing the same as hand weapons, on the other hand, IS just bad writing.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Getting a one-shot kill is great, but it's not what being a sniper is about.
Being a sniper is about shooting the enemy from a concealed position.
Which is perfectly possible in Rifts.

I'll disagree with that first part about one shot kill's.

On the second part anyone with the proper skills that can plan a ambush could do that.


Personally I think properly trained sniper's and their rifle's should be rare.

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Getting a one-shot kill is great, but it's not what being a sniper is about.
Being a sniper is about shooting the enemy from a concealed position.
Which is perfectly possible in Rifts.

I'll disagree with that first part about one shot kill's.

On the second part anyone with the proper skills that can plan a ambush could do that.


Personally I think properly trained sniper's and their rifle's should be rare.

Why? A sniper is simply someone firing his weapon from maximum effective range (sometimes farther) and operating from a concealed position and typically trained in field craft. The term originates from snipe hunting. The snipe being a bird of considerable allusiveness, and thus only skill marksmen could kill them as they had to be hunted from extreme range for the time (late 1700's).

I think people are getting caught up in what a sniper is today, and not realizing that war terminology is fluid. Light Calvary Units today would be damn near invincible during the civil war. "Snipers" of the Civil War could effectively target heavy calvary from the then obscene range of 300 yards. Snipers today do not even target heavy calvary units (or equivelent) since they are typically large tanks or armoured swift moving jeeps. A French sniper killed a British Admiral standing on the bridge of his ship during the Napoleonic Wars. Today an Admiral would be behind bullet proof glass and miles and miles away as he conducted the battle. Does that mean that sniper's are now ineffective in combat?

Things change.

Jesterzzn wrote:

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Getting a one-shot kill is great, but it's not what being a sniper is about.
Being a sniper is about shooting the enemy from a concealed position.
Which is perfectly possible in Rifts.

Personally I think properly trained sniper's and their rifle's should be rare.

Why? A sniper is simply someone firing his weapon from maximum effective range (sometimes farther) and operating from a concealed position and typically trained in field craft.

I think people are getting caught up in what a sniper is today, and not realizing that war terminology is fluid.

Things change.

Yes, which is why the Army is tripling the number of sniper's in their brigade's and expanding their training program from 5 weeks to 10 weeks to match the Marine's. IIRC the plan is to put a sniper in every squad and still have one or two more as "sharpshooter's." Obviously this is very different than what was done five years ago.

But firing a weapon at max range from a concealed position? Well that's just part of their job. As I said before, anyone can be trained to do that. Sniper's go beyond this in that not only are they trained in this regard but also receive training on observing, ID'ing of key enemy personnel (and possibly eliminating them) and in general collect information to be used later.

For use in Rifts, I think John Steven's TAG article in Rifter #23 comes closest to achieving this and making a playable sniper character.

I don't have my books with me at the moment.
Are there rules for armor piercing ammunition?
Does anyone use the penetration values, or does that not pertain to MDC?

Also, is there a skill or special ability that would allow an attacker to detect weak points in armor? Maybe an armory, engineering, or robot mechanic roll would work. Some skill that allows knowledge of the structural integrity of the target.

I know there are some suggestions for fatal damage from point blank shots. I'm imagining a situation in which a shooter has lined up an aimed shot for several actions, detected a weak spot in a target, and made a shot. Maybe through a gap between armor plates, a visor, fuel tank, or whatever.
Looks like I'll have to go back and read them again.

wolfe wrote:see it on the net constantly, folks thinking that all a sniper does is hide and shoot people.

Yeah. That's the dictionary definition of the word.
The problem is that you're talking about a trained military sniper, and I'm talking about snipers in general.
Anybody who's a decent shot and who shoots from a concealed position is a sniper. Professional or not.

Today snipers will target the vision blocks, search lights, antennas, tires, all manner of exposed components to hamper and harass the badguys.
doesn't have to kill or destroy to hinder and harass.

Exactly.

Getting a one-shot kill is great, but it's not what being a sniper is about.

not their primary mission, but if that person couldn't get consecutive one shot kill shots, he never passed sniper qualification and if he's doing this in field theres a nice performance review in his future.

Today, against unarmored opponents, yes.
But against armored opponents, with weapons that cannot penetrate the armor, then No.

Rifts has done absolutely nothing to remove the sniper from play.

Exactly.

Nemo235 wrote:I don't have my books with me at the moment.
Are there rules for armor piercing ammunition?
Does anyone use the penetration values, or does that not pertain to MDC?

Also, is there a skill or special ability that would allow an attacker to detect weak points in armor? Maybe an armory, engineering, or robot mechanic roll would work. Some skill that allows knowledge of the structural integrity of the target.

No.

I know there are some suggestions for fatal damage from point blank shots. I'm imagining a situation in which a shooter has lined up an aimed shot for several actions, detected a weak spot in a target, and made a shot. Maybe through a gap between armor plates, a visor, fuel tank, or whatever.
Looks like I'll have to go back and read them again.

Look over N&S "One Life, One Shot, One Hit, One Kill".
Also, look over the hunting rifles in Dinosaur Swamp.

wolfe wrote:I just had to send this to a friend of mine over at SOTIC
funniest thing heard about snipers this month.

What did you find funny?

There's a great many people who have no clue what a sniper is or does.

The argument sprang from the "one shot kill" which is what my post was speaking of. Perhaps you can be more specific in your complaint?

see it on the net constantly, folks thinking that all a sniper does is hide and shoot people.

Plus training in fieldcraft, however I never said "hide and shoot people" is the only thing they do. I said that is how the term is defined. If you disagree, maybe you should look it up. Or maybe you should not take a general term, and try and apply your specific military training (whatever it may be) to the term as a whole. Doctors are trained in medicine. That is how the term is defined, but it is not all we do.

Dustin Fireblade wrote:But firing a weapon at max range from a concealed position? Well that's just part of their job.

Part of whose job? A sniper is a concealed shooter, period. Anything on top of that is simply extra. The US military may require more of their snipers than Webster, but unless I missed something the discussion was on "snipers" and their percieved loss of effectiveness regarding the one shot kill, not "US Marine snipers are more than sharpshooters".

Jesterzzn wrote:

Dustin Fireblade wrote:But firing a weapon at max range from a concealed position? Well that's just part of their job.

Part of whose job? A sniper is a concealed shooter, period. Anything on top of that is simply extra. The US military may require more of their snipers than Webster, but unless I missed something the discussion was on "snipers" and their percieved loss of effectiveness regarding the one shot kill, not "US Marine snipers are more than sharpshooters".

Sniper's lost their effectiveness regarding one shot kill's. Yes KC IMO over generalized the sniper, ie shooting from a concealed position and maybe getting a one shot kill. I disagreed, and then stated properly trained sniper's should be rare. You asked why, because apparently in your view a sniper is just a guy shooting his weapon at max range from a concealed position.

I haven't disagreed with that, or that they are shooting from concealed positions. (I wouldn't call them sniper's anymore than I'd call someone wearing a Marine or Ranger shirt those title's just because they are wearing the shirt, but that's just me.)

So let me expand what I was meaning orginally. A 'properly trained' sniper should be able to do one shot kill's.

This is what I meant and I apologize for not being clear.

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

Jesterzzn wrote:

Dustin Fireblade wrote:But firing a weapon at max range from a concealed position? Well that's just part of their job.

Part of whose job? A sniper is a concealed shooter, period. Anything on top of that is simply extra. The US military may require more of their snipers than Webster, but unless I missed something the discussion was on "snipers" and their percieved loss of effectiveness regarding the one shot kill, not "US Marine snipers are more than sharpshooters".

Sniper's lost their effectiveness regarding one shot kill's. Yes KC IMO over generalized the sniper, ie shooting from a concealed position and maybe getting a one shot kill. I disagreed, and then stated properly trained sniper's should be rare. You asked why, because apparently in your view a sniper is just a guy shooting his weapon at max range from a concealed position.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?s ... &va=sniper
"to shoot at exposed individuals (as of an enemy's forces) from a usually concealed point of vantage"

The original "Snipers" were hunters (A "snipe" is a game bird). The term originated in India, in the late 1700s, used among British soldiers to describe somebody shooting from a hidden place.
Because hunters typically shoot from a concealed position, like a blind or a tree.

I haven't disagreed with that, or that they are shooting from concealed positions. (I wouldn't call them sniper's anymore than I'd call someone wearing a Marine or Ranger shirt those title's just because they are wearing the shirt, but that's just me.)

Ask the marines what they call enemies who are shooting at them from a hidden location.

So let me expand what I was meaning orginally. A 'properly trained' sniper should be able to do one shot kill's.

In today's world, using bullets against humans, sure.
But only because a good high-powered rifle round will easily penetrate the best known human body armor.
In the world of Rifts, body armor has advanced to the point where it cannot be reliably penetrated by a single shot from most man-portable (as opposed to PA or Borg portable) rifles.

I'm not a historian, but it seems to me that Rifts MDC armor is similar to plate armors of the past, although it's powered. Plate armor provided a huge defensive and psychlogical advantage until the developement of stronger bows and eventually firearms.

Bursts, fully automatic fire, and dodging, among other rules, have changed maybe 3 or 4 times at least. The problem is which of the new rules or revisions is going to frag up some of the older material.

Just about any question you see on these boards is going to refer to several other books and a plethora of house rules. Of course the rules are only guidelines, you can do whatever you find fun in your game.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

I haven't disagreed with that, or that they are shooting from concealed positions. (I wouldn't call them sniper's anymore than I'd call someone wearing a Marine or Ranger shirt those title's just because they are wearing the shirt, but that's just me.)

Ask the marines what they call enemies who are shooting at them from a hidden location.

Bingo.

To Dustin:

A "properly trained" sniper (we can all argue about "properly" in another thread I suppose) should be able to kill someone in one hit, provided that one hit is not to MDC armor.

But let's make it clear that a sniper is a defined term. HIV is a virus. Not all viruses are HIV. HIV is a specific type of virus that does things that not all other viruses do. But that does not mean when we talk about the term virus and what that term means we have to include HIV and its specific characteristics. US Marine Recon Snipers go to a special sniper school. Not all snipers are Marine or Army or SAS or Mossad or any other specifically trained sniper, so trying to say that it is your opinion that "snipers" are something more than a "concealed shooter" is to redefine the term. So, I think we can all agree that MIlitary snipers are much more than just concealed shooters, but we need to also agree that this makes them much more than snipers, not that it changes what a sniper is.

Maybe this has already been asked.
Where is the WP:Sniper skill?
It's mentioned in the ranged combat section.
Did it mean the sharpshooting skill?

Nemo235 wrote:Maybe this has already been asked.
Where is the WP:Sniper skill?
It's mentioned in the ranged combat section.
Did it mean the sharpshooting skill?

I don't have the book handy for a page number, but the Sniper skill is actually listed under the 'Espionage' skill group.