High-Technology and Literacy

[Killer Cyborg]

If they can write numbers they are partially litterate.

Then why don't the Basic and Advanced Math skills require Literacy?

[Rimmerdal]

If they can write numbers they are partially litterate.

Then why don't the Basic and Advanced Math skills require Literacy?

because litericy means a full working knowledge as opposed to the basic or partial knowledge of a literacy?

Kind like know what 1,2,3,4,5,6 and 7 but not knowing what 8 is. you can piece it together and go..

"well it is with '1' so it must be a number...let look at this key board and find where it fits.."

[Thinyser]

If they can write numbers they are partially litterate.

Then why don't the Basic and Advanced Math skills require Literacy?

because litericy means a full working knowledge as opposed to the basic or partial knowledge of a literacy?

Kind like know what 1,2,3,4,5,6 and 7 but not knowing what 8 is. you can piece it together and go..

"well it is with '1' so it must be a number...let look at this key board and find where it fits.."

and then they look at the top row and say hey 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, that makes this "0" bigger than 9....

I don't think it is "pieced together", math and numbers are seperate areas of knowledge from language...you could easily teach children how to count, do math (even some more advanced math), and read and write numbers only without teaching them how to read or write a language.

Basic math, when you think about, it is much simpler than language, first there are only ten characters (0,1,2,...9) and a few simple rules where as language has many more characters 20+ and has many more (obscure) rules. Also numbers always have only one meaning... "100" is always "one hundred" while "read" could be use like "you need to read this book, its great!" or "I already read that book last week, it was great!" and because of the context we know that the second use is pronounced "red" and indicates past tense....much more confusion to be had with language than with numbers.

[Gomen_Nagai]

psst Duke of shadows, don't confuse their feeble minds when referring to objects that interact vs Numbers!

[Zer0 Kay]

If they can write numbers they are partially litterate.

Then why don't the Basic and Advanced Math skills require Literacy?

I don't know why doesn't biology, Paramedic, MD, Cybernetics etc require at least basic math? Why doesn't navigation require basic: math? Why doesn't Sniper require WP Rifle? What about Radio Advanced requireing Radio Basic? SCUBA requireing Swimming? Oh wait because all the skills don't require the foundations skills that they should. Your arguement hold little weight.

[Zer0 Kay]

If they can write numbers they are partially litterate.

Then why don't the Basic and Advanced Math skills require Literacy?

because litericy means a full working knowledge as opposed to the basic or partial knowledge of a literacy?

Kind like know what 1,2,3,4,5,6 and 7 but not knowing what 8 is. you can piece it together and go..

"well it is with '1' so it must be a number...let look at this key board and find where it fits.."

and then they look at the top row and say hey 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, that makes this "0" bigger than 9....

I don't think it is "pieced together", math and numbers are seperate areas of knowledge from language...you could easily teach children how to count, do math (even some more advanced math), and read and write numbers only without teaching them how to read or write a language.

Basic math, when you think about, it is much simpler than language, first there are only ten characters (0,1,2,...9) and a few simple rules where as language has many more characters 20+ and has many more (obscure) rules. Also numbers always have only one meaning... "100" is always "one hundred" while "read" could be use like "you need to read this book, its great!" or "I already read that book last week, it was great!" and because of the context we know that the second use is pronounced "red" and indicates past tense....much more confusion to be had with language than with numbers.

Hey remember 0 hasn't always been around

[Zer0 Kay]

If they can write numbers they are partially litterate.

Then why don't the Basic and Advanced Math skills require Literacy?

Math is a universal language into itself. 1 is 1 is 1. 1 + 1 will always be 2.

Yes but 1+1 won't always be written that way. 1+1 doesn't look like that in Chinese or Japanese or other cultures that either don't use the same symbols or numbers as us. I beleive on Voyager the math is written in binary the simplest nubmering system they could think of.

[Zer0 Kay]

1 + 1 will always be 2.

Not always, 1 + 1 often equals 3, especially where teenagers and newlyweds are concerned.

or if you simply place them together it could be eleven or 3 again if your using binary or if you want to be technical 1 + 1 in binary would be 10.

[Zer0 Kay]

To build from scratch/design Yes. (just try and build a tree house or put up shelves properly...or better yet wire a multi-room stereo...)

to use No. (a trigger is a trigger)

Done, done & done....I've done all of those things and none of them requires you to read anything (so long as your stereo wires are color coded & numbers and math are useable by the illiterate )

You can easily learn a trade without reading any "how to" manuals or useing instructions.

If they can write numbers they are partially litterate. Numerate does not mean you can write numbers. "Express yourself in numbers" does not mean that you can write numbers. So according to you if your numerate you can use American, Chinese, Japanese or Korean numbers. Besides complex computations require the use of symbols. So what the CS uses 2(picture of dog) to the (picture of pistol) power (2x^nth power)

BULL **** ..... Don't put words in my mouth please.

According to me it is possible to build and hang a shelf and build a treehouse if you are able to use math and numbers (which according to palladium is not linked to reading and writing LANGUAGE) and hook up a stereo useing color coded wires, WITHOUT being able to read and write. The math for such tasks is simple math and doesn't require any symboles, and even if it did math symbols (in palladium) such as + - / X (as well as all the others) are covered in the related skill not under language skills.

OK OK calm down I'm sorry. You said use I made the bad assumption that it included write, guess that is just as bad as assuming that Numericy's 'express' means you can write numbers. So then you agree in order to be a technological productive member of a nation (meaning you actually have to produce stuff namely technology and will likely need to use complex math) that you couldn't cut it without being litterate. However the average joe could still survive without reading as do many now.

Again this is NOT what I said.

You can be a carpenter or a carpet layer or a tradesperson of many kinds WITHOUT being able to read and write your language so long as you have a grasp of basic math and can use (read and either write or remember) numbers. This is in real life....Palladiums system further seperates math and language and in game its not necessary to know one to know the other. In theory you could know trig and calculus in rifts without knowing how to read and write your own name.

So while in real life I dont think that an illeterate person would be capable of produceing new tech they can probably do many things that require numbers (reading and either remembering or writing them) and basic math, In game this does not necessairly hold true. You might be a computational wonder (advanced math) and can do calculus in you head and can design a new Force Field generator without ever knowing how to write a paragraph explination for the fantastic new device you just designed.

note though that was phrased as a question not as a statement even though I used the incorrect punctuation. OK in game lots of things don't hold true and we just accept it but I didn't think the point of the topic was to be arguing strictly in game.

[Killer Cyborg]

If they can write numbers they are partially litterate.

Then why don't the Basic and Advanced Math skills require Literacy?

I don't know why doesn't biology, Paramedic, MD, Cybernetics etc require at least basic math? Why doesn't navigation require basic: math?

Why would it?

Why doesn't Sniper require WP Rifle?

Because you don't have to use a rifle to be a sniper.

What about Radio Advanced requireing Radio Basic?

Radio Advanced?

SCUBA requireing Swimming?

It includes swimming.

Oh wait because all the skills don't require the foundations skills that they should. Your arguement hold little weight.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[Zer0 Kay]

If they can write numbers they are partially litterate.

Then why don't the Basic and Advanced Math skills require Literacy?

I don't know why doesn't biology, Paramedic, MD, Cybernetics etc require at least basic math? Why doesn't navigation require basic: math?

Why would it?

Because they all require conversion and body weight per cc calculations

Why doesn't Sniper require WP Rifle?

Because you don't have to use a rifle to be a sniper.

It requires that you use a weapon capable of single shot. In order to be a sniper you need to be familiar with the weapon in order to be familiar with the weapon IG it should require that you have a WP of the weapon of choice.

What about Radio Advanced requireing Radio Basic?

Radio Advanced?

Never mind not a Rifts skill

SCUBA requireing Swimming?

It includes swimming.

Yeah I guess it does say that in there. So how about the little blurb in computer repair... repair personel not knowing how to turn on a computer is preposterous, how will they know they fixed it? I've worked in tech shops and am in a Communications Squadron and every technician knows how to turn it on. If they didn't before they were tought how to so they can confirm their work. What about the advanced electronics (Robot, PA etc...) not requireing basic electronics or electronis engineer? No they aren't included but necessary in order to understand what the hell your doing. As far as math not requireing litteracy... guess not as long as your not going to try to teach it or display it, it would just be math in your head.

[Dead Boy]

Can you have a high tech society that is fundamentally illiterate?

In my opinin, I think we're headding for that right now! Those that make and develop the tech may have to be literate, but the people they make it for are requiring less and less reading skills to operate them. For instance, think of a Play Station (1, 2, or 3). What does it have to distunguish many of its buttons? Icons; an X, a circle, a triangle and a square. This sort of thing is getting more and more common, and it most likely will impact the world's literacy levels.

[Killer Cyborg]

If they can write numbers they are partially litterate.

Then why don't the Basic and Advanced Math skills require Literacy?

I don't know why doesn't biology, Paramedic, MD, Cybernetics etc require at least basic math? Why doesn't navigation require basic: math?

Why would it?

Because they all require conversion and body weight per cc calculations

Perhaps you could get by with a calculator or chart.

Why doesn't Sniper require WP Rifle?

Because you don't have to use a rifle to be a sniper.

It requires that you use a weapon capable of single shot. In order to be a sniper you need to be familiar with the weapon in order to be familiar with the weapon IG it should require that you have a WP of the weapon of choice.[/quote]

Possibly.
Or possibly it is meant to reflect people who can use weapons accurately, but who don't possess full knowledge of the maintainance and workings of such weapons.
A weekend hunter might well have the sniper skill, but know very little about the weapon other than how to fire it semi-accurately.

So how about the little blurb in computer repair... repair personel not knowing how to turn on a computer is preposterous, how will they know they fixed it?

Agreed.
It was probably written back when you had to throw a dozen switches to turn a computer on, but only had to swap out some vacuum tubes to fix it...

What about the advanced electronics (Robot, PA etc...) not requireing basic electronics or electronis engineer? No they aren't included but necessary in order to understand what the hell your doing.

No, I'd say that the lesser skills are included in the greater skills.

As far as math not requireing litteracy... guess not as long as your not going to try to teach it or display it, it would just be math in your head.

Good luck doing advanced math in your head.
Palladium (as well as many other people) does not consider writing numbers to be literacy.

[Zer0 Kay]

If they can write numbers they are partially litterate.

Then why don't the Basic and Advanced Math skills require Literacy?

I don't know why doesn't biology, Paramedic, MD, Cybernetics etc require at least basic math? Why doesn't navigation require basic: math?

Why would it?

Because they all require conversion and body weight per cc calculations

Perhaps you could get by with a calculator or chart.

:nh: "This man is on the brink of death... quick get me my calculator!"

Why doesn't Sniper require WP Rifle?

Because you don't have to use a rifle to be a sniper.

It requires that you use a weapon capable of single shot. In order to be a sniper you need to be familiar with the weapon in order to be familiar with the weapon IG it should require that you have a WP of the weapon of choice.

Possibly.
Or possibly it is meant to reflect people who can use weapons accurately, but who don't possess full knowledge of the maintainance and workings of such weapons.
A weekend hunter might well have the sniper skill, but know very little about the weapon other than how to fire it semi-accurately.[/quote]WOW that is quite an intuitive take on that... but I don't beleive that is how PB meant it to be taken.

So how about the little blurb in computer repair... repair personel not knowing how to turn on a computer is preposterous, how will they know they fixed it?

Agreed.
It was probably written back when you had to throw a dozen switches to turn a computer on, but only had to swap out some vacuum tubes to fix it...

Oh my gawd I never even considered that KS was born durring the time of ENIAC

What about the advanced electronics (Robot, PA etc...) not requireing basic electronics or electronis engineer? No they aren't included but necessary in order to understand what the hell your doing.

No, I'd say that the lesser skills are included in the greater skills.

Are you even looking at the poopoo I'm spewing? Robot Electronics does require Electrical engineering which, however, doesn't require basic electronics. So in some ways your right... others your not.

As far as math not requireing litteracy... guess not as long as your not going to try to teach it or display it, it would just be math in your head.

Good luck doing advanced math in your head.
Palladium (as well as many other people) does not consider writing numbers to be literacy.

just because people consider something one way doesn't make it true. So I'll stick with the dictionary's definition. Until Palladium says that someone who has Read/Write (in non-Rifts) or Literacy can't write numbers then Literacy will be the skill for uh... reading and writing all things related to that language... of course one could argue that Techno-can is the language that imparts one in the Rifts era with the ability to write scientific notation and most other numeric formulae.