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You can want whatever you want. I'm just amused, is all I'm saying.

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Underseas could easially have been better, but why the hating on phase world?

I believe the book was originally titled "Super Happy Munchkin Dimension" but they decided that was too long.

I think a small japanese anime company holds the rights to that one actually


[/quote]On a side note, I find it amusing that alot of the same people I've seen touting the merits of Phase World also whine about "power creep" and rifts not being gritty and "post-apocalyptic" enough.
Its like, what do you want? Do you want to destroy planets, or do you want to scavenge for food and gasoline? [/quote]

Rifts earth is supposed to be post-apocolyptic.

Phase World has nothing to do with Rifts Earth. it's a seperate dimension.

really, Phase World is an individual game setting just like Heros Unlimited and Palladium Fantasy, it just has the Rifts title so they can sell more.

Misfit KotLD wrote:Are we not allowed to want both, but in seperate settings?

I think what he's saying is that since Phase world is a dimention book, people treat it like a source book, thus wanting to play phase world character in a rifts setting.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:Are we not allowed to want both, but in seperate settings?

I think what he's saying is that since Phase world is a dimention book, people treat it like a source book, thus wanting to play phase world character in a rifts setting.

I can't recall anyone saying "I want a Seljuk for my post apocalyptic setting."

Not here, but we've played with enough gamers who the first thing they want to do in the rifts game is roll up something from phase world. In otherwords, I believe he's saying that phase world has caused more problems than not.

Which I agree with him. Phase world to me is just as bad as England, but I can use stuff in england in my game.

the classes that create Munchikins by just BEING that class or ones that are limited to single role.

Personally I hate the Momano Head Hunter.

The original Head Hunter OCC was all about tech over magic and then this bunch of wannabes shows up screws over everything thats already been written in regards to Head Hunters.

Nxla666 wrote:Personally I hate the Momano Head Hunter.

The original Head Hunter OCC was all about tech over magic and then this bunch of wannabes shows up screws over everything thats already been written in regards to Head Hunters.

I don't mind the Momamo Head Hunter. I don't like the TW bionics as presented in Canada, but not all Momamo Head Hunters use them.

Ok, so I fess up as the guy who voted for ninjas (sorry, Kuseru). But upon further reflection, I think the Juicer Scout is one of the dumbest OCC concepts in the books. And the fact that they created two gambler OCCs (per WB 10 and 14) was dumb, too.

And enough hating on Phase World... I thought it was one of Palladium's most dynamic books, despite the power upgrades.

Nxla666 wrote:Personally I hate the Momano Head Hunter.

The original Head Hunter OCC was all about tech over magic and then this bunch of wannabes shows up screws over everything thats already been written in regards to Head Hunters.

how was the headhunter tech over magic? they were just a nonmagical warrior, not dedicated to it.

[quote="dark brandon]Not here, but we've played with enough gamers who the first thing they want to do in the rifts game is roll up something from phase world. In otherwords, I believe he's saying that phase world has caused more problems than not.[/quote]

true dat.

Battle Mages.

the majority of new Occs who only exist to nerf things.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Nxla666 wrote:Personally I hate the Momano Head Hunter.

The original Head Hunter OCC was all about tech over magic and then this bunch of wannabes shows up screws over everything thats already been written in regards to Head Hunters.

how was the headhunter tech over magic? they were just a nonmagical warrior, not dedicated to it.

What...

The Head Hunter has always been tech over magic, the fact that starting equipment for them had them only 1 bionic bit away from being partial conversion borgs kind of indicates to me that they were "dedicated" to it along with the statement of "never use magic devices" on page 66 of the RMB (under standard equipment).


This is later backed up by the Canada book fleshing out the Head Hunter into the Techno-Warrior, and RUE as well.

Misfit KotLD wrote:Of course they don't use magic, they lack the aptitude and training to. It's almost like saying an illeterate never uses spellcheck. Of course he doesn't, he can't.

A rune sword require no aptitude but its a magic device.

Nxla666 wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:Of course they don't use magic, they lack the aptitude and training to. It's almost like saying an illeterate never uses spellcheck. Of course he doesn't, he can't.

A rune sword require no aptitude but its a magic device.

I don't know of a headhunter in exsistance that'd turn one down though...

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Nxla666 wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:Of course they don't use magic, they lack the aptitude and training to. It's almost like saying an illeterate never uses spellcheck. Of course he doesn't, he can't.

A rune sword require no aptitude but its a magic device.

I don't know of a headhunter in exsistance that'd turn one down though...

Me neither...

But I am sure in canon they would.

Lord_Coake wrote:... was the most hated, detested, loathed and maligned OCC you've ever had to deal with. The most useless and/or overpowered, uber-munchkin, BS OCC that you just can't stand and wish was never written?

For me that would be the Saloon Girl/Barmaid. I mean, really... Why? What's the point of this OCC being in any book whatsoever? Are there really that many players clamoring to serve drinks and be slapped on the ass for tips for their night's gaming session?

clinto1022 wrote:i gotta go with the entire "Coalition War Campaign" book. It was the book that changed rifts forever. From cool, in the beginning, to "munchkin" where it is now. I loved the coalition, in the main book. Then they had to go too far, IMO. otherwise i always hated the cyber-knights...........Super-SAMAS, why?

Actually that was one of my favorites. Why? Because it turned the CS from the over rated bad guys that even your typical Vagabond could eff with, into the guys that genuinely make the players and PC's wet their pants on sight.

Actually the Barmaid OCC is on my NPC only list.

Same as the Saloon Bum, players can be lushes but I didn't see the reason for a professional one.

Dead Boy wrote:

clinto1022 wrote:i gotta go with the entire "Coalition War Campaign" book. It was the book that changed rifts forever. From cool, in the beginning, to "munchkin" where it is now. I loved the coalition, in the main book. Then they had to go too far, IMO. otherwise i always hated the cyber-knights...........Super-SAMAS, why?

Actually that was one of my favorites. Why? Because it turned the CS from the over rated bad guys that even your typical Vagabond could eff with, into the guys that genuinely make the players and PC's wet their pants on sight.

Actually, due to my misunderstanding the nature of the C-12, the CS was NEVER weak in my game. Even if I'd known the nature of the C-12, I'd have simply given the troops C-14s, which were awesome before being nerfed in CWC.

The only thing about CWC that made any of us wet our pants was laughing too hard at the goofy new armor.

I hate Delphi Juicers, they're just stupid . I don't mind the other variants as they are a bit more balanced or at least interesting (although I'm not a big fan of Mega-Juicers either).

Basically they are were among of the most powerful psychics when they first came out as they had access to the Super category, yet they also had all of the powers of juicers as well. The concept wasn't very well done IMO as the premise was that an ex-Mindwerks scientist created them, however the Delphi helmet has very little in common with Mindwerks implants apart from they produce psychic powers. There is also no rational why they have to be juicers, why not just put the helmet on a vagabond and get a powerful psychic without the 5 year lifespan?

I don't let gunslingers have access to Commando so they are not a problem. I always liked the idea of CyberKnights but they weren't very well written (should have had less skills and more psychic powers IMO) and the update was almost worse.

John_Kreed wrote:Um whats the big deal with Commando as a hand to hand skill? Its still useless against supernatural, and power armor; unless your character is already a supernatural being that can kick ass in hand to hand. But then whats the big deal anyway?

Dan.

It gives autododge, something previously restricted (in Rifts) to Juicers and other superhuman characters.

Keep in mind BtS2, Splicers, and R:UE effectively squashed the -10 rule for anything but point-blank combat. Anything beyond 100ft(yds?) is normal dodge rolls.

I gotta agree with Misfit on Commando giving autododge, it's just too wrong for words purely on principle.

John_Kreed wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:

John_Kreed wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

John_Kreed wrote:Um whats the big deal with Commando as a hand to hand skill? Its still useless against supernatural, and power armor; unless your character is already a supernatural being that can kick ass in hand to hand. But then whats the big deal anyway?

Dan.

It gives autododge, something previously restricted (in Rifts) to Juicers and other superhuman characters.

Um, as far as I know theres this little thing called a -10 to dodge rule that makes it almost impossible to dodge lasers, and rail guns etc... (unless your a juicer that is) So I ask again, whats the big deal with auto dodge?

Dan.

Juicers still see the penalty too. And the point is they still get the attempt, not that they are likely to succeed.

Oh well thats where you guys are getting these things wrong. Juicers have enhanced reflexes above and way beyond the norm, so they get no -10 to dodge lasers etc... It's one of the perks of living for only 5-7 years. lol

Ever notice how some OCC's and RCC's get less of a penalty to parry energy blasts or rail gun bursts because of their extensive training and or heightened reflexes? Well Juicers are the ultimate in enhanced reflexes, so they get the best dodge in the game which is "automatic dodge any attack, even from behind or surprise without a penalty". At least thats how I see things.

Dan.

As far as I know, the -10 rule does not exist anymore.

John_Kreed wrote:Well Juicers are the ultimate in enhanced reflexes, so they get the best dodge in the game which is "automatic dodge any attack, even from behind or surprise without a penalty". At least thats how I see things.

Except that high-level Crazies have a better autododge (+8, RUE p.55 col.2) than high-level Juicers (+5, RUE p.79 col.2).

RainOfSteel wrote:

John_Kreed wrote:Well Juicers are the ultimate in enhanced reflexes, so they get the best dodge in the game which is "automatic dodge any attack, even from behind or surprise without a penalty". At least thats how I see things.

Except that high-level Crazies have a better autododge (+8, RUE p.55 col.2) than high-level Juicers (+5, RUE p.79 col.2).

A crazy and juicer with mim. PP for both (17 for crazies 20 for juicers), Crazies end up being better auto-dodgers than juicers at around 8th level.

John_Kreed wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

RainOfSteel wrote:

John_Kreed wrote:Well Juicers are the ultimate in enhanced reflexes, so they get the best dodge in the game which is "automatic dodge any attack, even from behind or surprise without a penalty". At least thats how I see things.

Except that high-level Crazies have a better autododge (+8, RUE p.55 col.2) than high-level Juicers (+5, RUE p.79 col.2).

A crazy and juicer with mim. PP for both (17 for crazies 20 for juicers), Crazies end up being better auto-dodgers than juicers at around 8th level.

Unless your juicer has a pp of 30+ lol

Dan.

Not unless your Crazy has a PP of 30+ LOLOLOLOLOL....I guess that's funny.

In regards to the juicer vs crazy autododge subject;
Most juicers wouldn't survive long past 8th level anyway so it's not majorly important, crazies are not much better off, their so unstable by high levels that most are likely to die in combat before they get to level 10. Plus as someone else has pointed out they have better senses than juicers but likely to have a lower PP.

grandmaster z0b wrote:In regards to the juicer vs crazy autododge subject;
Most juicers wouldn't survive long past 8th level anyway so it's not majorly important, crazies are not much better off, their so unstable by high levels that most are likely to die in combat before they get to level 10. Plus as someone else has pointed out they have better senses than juicers but likely to have a lower PP.

Maybe. But the idea that if both can make it past 7th level a crazy becoming a better auto-dodger than a juicer. 7th isn't that high of a level, and I believe most juicers on average make it 7-8th level, but a crazy should not be better than them, really ever.

they may have a lower PP, min 17, while juicer 20. But, Juicers only gain 2D4 PP bonus, Crazies 1D6...so it's not so much that it makes a difference. The average juicer will gain 4 PP while a crazy has 3.

dark brandon wrote:[...] but a crazy should not be better than them, really ever.

I may just reverse the auto-dodge bonuses listed.

RainOfSteel wrote:

dark brandon wrote:[...] but a crazy should not be better than them, really ever.

I may just reverse the auto-dodge bonuses listed.

I don't mind the idea that at high levels some crazies would be better than juicers, but I think they would still be in the minority.

I dont like any OCC that was printed needlessly. change the name, add a few skills, take away a few skills and WHA-LA! A new OCC!

grandmaster z0b wrote:

RainOfSteel wrote:

dark brandon wrote:[...] but a crazy should not be better than them, really ever.

I may just reverse the auto-dodge bonuses listed.

I don't mind the idea that at high levels some crazies would be better than juicers, but I think they would still be in the minority.

Giving Crazies autodogde is power enough. If I even decided to even GIVE them autododge, the bonuses would not have gone any higher than +3 even at level 15...

RainOfSteel wrote:

dark brandon wrote:[...] but a crazy should not be better than them, really ever.

I may just reverse the auto-dodge bonuses listed.

my thoughts exactly.

grandmaster z0b wrote:

RainOfSteel wrote:

dark brandon wrote:[...] but a crazy should not be better than them, really ever.

I may just reverse the auto-dodge bonuses listed.

I don't mind the idea that at high levels some crazies would be better than juicers, but I think they would still be in the minority.

See, to me it bothers me quite a bit mainly because you took someone who were some of the best (only) auto-dodgers (the only ones from the main book), and by giving Crazies not only the ability to auto-dodge, but the fact that they can do so even from the start almost as good as a juicer I think really takes away from the juicer.

If the two should be auto-dodge comperable, to keep the superior feel for juicers, they should be at least noticably better, which they are not.

On the Average, a juicer is going to have a +4 to auto-dodge at the beginning where as a Crazy will have a +2, and the gap shortens thereafter. At 2nd, a crazy will have +3 juicer +4. Third, C: +3 J: +5, fourth C: +4 J: +5. And at 5th Level C: +6 J +5....By 5th level, a crazy is a better auto-dodger than a juicer.

Time for an attempt to slide back on topic.

The classes I most dislike are:

1. Crazy: Before RUE, one factor was the metal knobs sticking out of their heads and the inane expression on the face of the Crazy in the RMB OCC description. The second factor, they're crazy. They get buried under insanities and there is nothing that can be done. No amount of drug therapy or counseling can be of any assistance. If correctly roleplayed, so many insanities will ruin game play for everyone in almost every session. If the insanities are not played up, what are they doing there in the first place? Basically, IMO, they exist solely to provide a method of disrupting game play.
2. Undead Slayer: This one is far too powerful.
3. Optional NPC-types: Witch, Scarecrow, Godlings, etc.
4. Phoenixi: Ever gotten tired of almost dying? When you combine this RCC with the new "last bit of armor rule", they can't die from combat, ever.

RainOfSteel wrote: this RCC with the new "last bit of armor rule", they can't die from combat, ever.
[/list]

Ummm.....


the "last bit of armor" rule, does NOT apply to natural MDC.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Alejandro wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:

RainOfSteel wrote:[*]Undead Slayer: This one is far too powerful.

Too powerful? They are tanks, I'll give you that. But I've never had one too powerful in a game I've either run or played in.

It is still an overpowered creation. Yes, there are a ton of other things out there more powerful. That doesn't mean the undead slayer still isn't overpowered. If you have a US in your campaign & it's not overpowered, chances are your campaign involves a bunch of similar powered creations. Should all things be equal? Of course not. Have they gone overboard to the point where the RMB is really just a paperweight with rules that have been so modified over the entire Rifts span that it's pointless to even have around? Pretty much.

There are too many things in Rifts which don't merge well into a group and in order to play the newer creations you're pretty much insured you'll have to fight gods & the like in order to not just steamroll your way through a campaign.

Even when the US was head and shoulders about every other tank in the group, he still wasn't unbalancing. They have plenty of limits to balance their tankhood. A GM who can't keep them balanced isn't paying attention.

I once ran a Dimension hopping game with a party of only Undead Slayers, It was fun....but Wormwood still kicked the crap out of them.

Any OCC can be a "game breaker", its all how they are played.

The GMs job is to keep the "power house" from ruining the game.


If the GM allows a simple level one Vagabond and a Cosmo Knight in the same group then naturally the Cosmo is going to dominate the fights, but if the game is balanced between the players the vagabond will be useful as well.

RainOfSteel wrote:Time for an attempt to slide back on topic.

The classes I most dislike are:

[list=1]
[*]Crazy: Before RUE, one factor was the metal knobs sticking out of their heads and the inane expression on the face of the Crazy in the RMB OCC description. The second factor, they're crazy. They get buried under insanities and there is nothing that can be done. No amount of drug therapy or counseling can be of any assistance. If correctly roleplayed, so many insanities will ruin game play for everyone in almost every session. If the insanities are not played up, what are they doing there in the first place? Basically, IMO, they exist solely to provide a method of disrupting game play.

I've never had this problem with crazies, they have been some of the funnest characters to GM or to NPC. I've had gun ho juicers that were a lot more disruptive. They are a real role playing challenge which is why I don't mind the fact that they now get auto-dodge.

Originally Juicers were the best but offset by the fact that they died early, however whilst the player is playing the juicer they have virtually no problems or draw backs compared to the crazy. When they evetually died the player was ready and just rolled up a new one, it would be disapointing but not too bad, most already have a new character in mind. Crazies on the other hand had to put up with their psychosis the entire time they're playing.

I suppose I always thought that crazies should be almost on par with juicers, especially when we started to see things like Mega-Juicers, Delphi Juicers and Dragon Juicers. Remember they still get one more attack per round and that makes a lot of difference.

grandmaster z0b wrote:I've never had this problem with crazies, they have been some of the funnest characters to GM or to NPC. I've had gun ho juicers that were a lot more disruptive. They are a real role playing challenge which is why I don't mind the fact that they now get auto-dodge.

Originally Juicers were the best but offset by the fact that they died early, however whilst the player is playing the juicer they have virtually no problems or draw backs compared to the crazy. When they evetually died the player was ready and just rolled up a new one, it would be disapointing but not too bad, most already have a new character in mind. Crazies on the other hand had to put up with their psychosis the entire time they're playing.

I'm not gonna argue which one is more "Disruptive". If, both are played by immature players, it can be disruptive. Ever see someone play a GB and be immature? So assuming someone is playing them "maturely"...

A crazy is very dependant. It's quite possible to roll up a Crazy level 8 and have him still completely functional. For every "common" insanity, there is a rather uncommon one.

By the rules, it could be pretty harsh, but not a guaranteed. Unlike a juicer who is guarantee death after 5 IG years.

Just for example
Phobia: Public speaking
Affective: Hates bugs
Random Crazy: Power word
Obsession: Rifts/dimentional travel (depending on game, you get to
choose so whichever is more benificial)
phobbia: Splugorth

Now, a Crazy could be pretty harshly gimped, at the same time, he could be relitivly fine. A juicer is dead. Finally a juicer needs to pay for his drugs, and they arn't cheap.

I suppose I always thought that crazies should be almost on par with juicers, especially when we started to see things like Mega-Juicers, Delphi Juicers and Dragon Juicers. Remember they still get one more attack per round and that makes a lot of difference.

I do agree the extra attack is nice, but that shouldn't be the only thing. Technically speaking having 3 psionics in place of that extra attack can make just as much a difference, not only because unlike a juicer who needs a 15 to save vs. psionics, crazy only needs a 10 to save (12 for being a minor +2 Crazy bonus to save vs. psionics), he can have some of the best psionics, Mind block, 6th sense and one other.

When they evetually died the player was ready and just rolled up a new one, it would be disapointing but not too bad, most already have a new character in mind. Crazies on the other hand had to put up with their psychosis the entire time they're playing.

This is really for the players. A person who has a crazy with a psychosis that he doesn't enjoy will probably have another character ready just as much as a juicer who's reaching the end. Having a juicer die, depending on the level and how long you've played him is serious. It's not just "too" disappointing, but all that work you put into the character is just gone.

vagabond OCC

I have to say that I have NEVER liked the Traditionalist Indian O.C.C. in Spirit West. It is so rigid with what they will and will not use, I don't see how any of them survive very long.

mystic knights by far
they get all these combat bonues then get mystic powers then are imprevious to energy along with there other powers

Off the top of my head previously the only class that had a no ppe cost countious imperious to energy are cosmo knights. The imerpvious to energy always got to me and I hate how magic classes get more combat bonues than most men of arms occs. To have on top of that the ability to ignore in theory a million MD of energy blasts is just broken.

Amazons come in second. While its quite cool and out reaching to female players to have these SN Str MD girls wearing from the SA WB pict lepord fur runing around slaying the bad guys it just dosen't make sense. In the broader scheme wouldn't the world's females or at leasat those of that alanatean comunity slowly have been bred out by Amazons over the centuaries.

Ninja. Almost never fits the storyline of what I have planned as a GM, yet the new players always want to play some variant of one at some point. Whether it's the Ninja-juicer or other.

I think the Mystic Knight is my most hated OCC so far as a Gm. This class is just wrong and a pain in my buttocks. The only thing that keeps me from banning it in my games is that they are only immune to energy. A opponent who figures this out or who does not rely on energy weapons can give them a hard time or defeat one if they are smart about it.

Nega-Psychic R.C.C.
"Oh, I just don't belive in magic - nevermind that the Shifter just ripped a hole in reality."
Bleh!
I have no problem with the Psi-Nullifier, for them it's a REFLEXSIVE defense from exposure to the supernatural. Not the "my will is stronger than the megaverse" crap from the Nega-Psychic.

Hatchling dragons.
You rpetty much either have to have a whole group of them, or equally powerful OCCs/RCCs or they steal the show 9 times out of 10.
What can't they do? I mean really. Add on to that they are supposed to be played like petulant children...

EDIT: I know this is an RCC but dammit. I wanted to gripe too.

Anything with the word "rogue" infront of it. Mainly Rogue-Scholars and Scientists; seriously, is there a regular "Scholar" or "Scientist" OCC? No, of course not; they've all gone rogue!

That aside, it is cheesy and makes for a lame role in a party of adventurers.
R-S "hold on guys, I gotta slow down play and hog the spot-light for X amount of time because I couldn't pick a class that meshed well with the rest of you!"

Cyborg "I hate you."

Wilderness Scout "I loathe to agree with the cyborg, but I hate you too."

Shifter "Way to take a powerless, combat-ineffectual, "smart-guy" class any magic/tech class could've covered. Jerk."

Juicer "Wanna go ride bikes?



Off a cliff, where I know I'll jump off last minute and you won't so you'll die and the rest of the guys'll buy me a beer when we get back to civilization, instead of being hauled all the way out here so you could make a porno of two birds no one but dorks like yerself care about."

R-S "it's called observing the mating rituals of speckle-nosed elephant-goose, you ruffian!" (because ******** that choose this type of class always have the lamest disses that make you want to just off the guy)


I rest my case.

Any OCC that forces you to think in terms of OCC first Character second.

Hmmm,so many to choose from but so little time to talk about it. Still stick by my feelings about the Mystic Knight. In my opinion, dragons are supposed to be the epitome of power and dangerous to encounter in any situation. I really dislike the odd man out thing but that belongs in the DM rants section. My other most hated OCC is the full conversion borg because so few people can figure out what to do with it.