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Grey Death wrote:#1 You still missing my point. True an FMJ has a greater chance of wasting its energy blowing through the target. My point was that even this non expanding bullet, carries more potential energy than a smaller expanding bullet. So if a small expanding bullet is good, a larger expanding bullet is even better. Bigger equals more energy. More energy equals greater stopping power.

#4 So we're just back to shot and placement then? The recoil thing I can mildly understand. But those who consider .45 to much recoil need to man the heck up. Its not like its S&W .500. That has recoil thats more than needed. (As a side note my father and I were speaking about .500S&W, .480 Ruger. We both agree that really their just cartridges trying to do a rifles job.)
The longer "bang hit" is non-sense. Your trying to tell me people are dodging bullets at 900 feet per sec? That's some Remo Williams/Destroyer stuff.
Cost is a little more expensive. Bargain shopping is the answer my friend. Especially when it comes to practice ammo. Personally my little Ruger P-90 gobbles up any thing I feed it. Been shooting the Wolf junk for practice. Little dirty but a good value. I clean it after every session anyways, coupled with its seeming reliability I have no problems.
I cant argue with its heavier and typically has a lower magazine capacity. I don't judge a high capacity magazine as necessarily a good thing. I think in certain cases it encourages spray and pray tactics. I think a smaller magazine forces one to make placed shots. Because one has to make the rounds count. Now undeniably having 17 rounds at the ready is certainly more advantages than 7. But I think you see the point I'm trying to make. I always thought it was funny listening to cops in the early eighties talking about how they moved from the .38 revolvers to 9mm auto loaders, because they needed the greater firepower. Ballistically .38 special and 9mm are almost ballistically identical. They just felt better with a big magazine in the pistol.

(I'd just like to say its been nice arguing/discussing this with someone who knows what their talking about. Even if we dont agree on topics. )

psychophipps wrote:

Grey Death wrote:#1 You still missing my point. True an FMJ has a greater chance of wasting its energy blowing through the target. My point was that even this non expanding bullet, carries more potential energy than a smaller expanding bullet. So if a small expanding bullet is good, a larger expanding bullet is even better. Bigger equals more energy. More energy equals greater stopping power.

#4 So we're just back to shot and placement then? The recoil thing I can mildly understand. But those who consider .45 to much recoil need to man the heck up. Its not like its S&W .500. That has recoil thats more than needed. (As a side note my father and I were speaking about .500S&W, .480 Ruger. We both agree that really their just cartridges trying to do a rifles job.)
The longer "bang hit" is non-sense. Your trying to tell me people are dodging bullets at 900 feet per sec? That's some Remo Williams/Destroyer stuff.
Cost is a little more expensive. Bargain shopping is the answer my friend. Especially when it comes to practice ammo. Personally my little Ruger P-90 gobbles up any thing I feed it. Been shooting the Wolf junk for practice. Little dirty but a good value. I clean it after every session anyways, coupled with its seeming reliability I have no problems.
I cant argue with its heavier and typically has a lower magazine capacity. I don't judge a high capacity magazine as necessarily a good thing. I think in certain cases it encourages spray and pray tactics. I think a smaller magazine forces one to make placed shots. Because one has to make the rounds count. Now undeniably having 17 rounds at the ready is certainly more advantages than 7. But I think you see the point I'm trying to make. I always thought it was funny listening to cops in the early eighties talking about how they moved from the .38 revolvers to 9mm auto loaders, because they needed the greater firepower. Ballistically .38 special and 9mm are almost ballistically identical. They just felt better with a big magazine in the pistol.

(I'd just like to say its been nice arguing/discussing this with someone who knows what their talking about. Even if we dont agree on topics. )

#1: More energy doesn't mean more stopping power, at least not for most handguns. Non-magnum handguns (and these need to be the heavier magnums and fire lighter loads in the 150gr and less range) are too minor in the power scale to have the extra temporary cavitation of a slight energy increase have any real effect. This temporary cavitation theory was the thought in the 80s, and the main reason for the swap to the super-sonic 9mm, but has since been disproved. The fact remains that you need to get a direct hit in the CNS and/or MBBO to facilitate a fast takedown of the target with reasonable handgun loads.

#4: Or grow bigger hands?
It's not about the target dodging the bullets, it's about taking a minimally-trained soldier, civilian, or LEO and having them lining up the sights on a mover and having to correct for ignition--->impact gap less while they're all but in a panic, tunneling, and losing fine motor control. Most people aren't D-boys and the like so anything you can do to make their job easier is time and money well spent, IMO.
Your capacity theory has been proven as false. Any gap in a firing string or tactical situation as to when a combatant is incapable of engaging a new or existing threat is, in highly technical terms, non-optimal. Reloading any more than necessary, especially for minimally trained combatants who can't smoke reloads like Todd Jarrett, creates a window of vulnerability as reloading is a fairly complex action and usually involves looking down at the weapon that they have barely qualified with rather than scanning for threats. More rounds means less of these gaps. Less gaps means less vulnerability. Less vulnerability means less chance of getting dead.

Grey Death wrote:#1 Well I'm gonna let this go. I think suffic (sp?) to say we both have different opinions on this. Neither of which is gonna change.

BigLEE wrote:

Grey Death wrote:#1 Well I'm gonna let this go. I think suffic (sp?) to say we both have different opinions on this. Neither of which is gonna change.

Read the article at http://www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html. I stopped paying attantion to gunrag writer's opinions about bullet effectiveness years ago.