Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 1:50 pm
double post
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Now that's a power i'd think about getting! Good range, same cost as a TK acceleration attack, awesome strike bonuses, no extra materials needed. It puts it on pretty even footing with the other abilities.gadrin wrote:so maybe
12 I.S.P.: for 1D6 to 3D6 S.D.C. damage, psychic's choice.
20 I.S.P.: 2D4 Mega-Damage! +1 point per level.
both are +4 to hit.
then +10 ISP for an extra +4 giving +8 to hit total.
gadrin wrote:yeah it's decent. Pyro-K still offers more, since fire is scarier![]()
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the ISP cost is still enough that you're not "a bottomless e-clip Mind Bolt weapon" psychic, especially if you use the targeting bonus of +8.
it's most useful on the Astral Plane, where everyone is SDC and now you only have to spend 12 or 22 ISP to shoot at someone.
I've forgotten...what will a Ley Line or Nexus point do to it performance-wise ?
gadrin wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:
If you're magic netted and can't move your arms enough to reach your money pouch, you're screwed.
I believe Magic Net says something like: "those caught can't attack or defend" so the net is so constricting it interferes with concentration and Mind Bolts can't be used, even against that strand that's smashed across your nose.![]()
Sometimes the wordings of powers and spells aren't the greatest, and no doubt GMs might make exceptions.
elecgraystone wrote:Just as there are ways around not having materials for the TKA. why not shot the guard with his own set of keys, a hail of buttons ect.Killer Cyborg wrote:Of course, there are ways to get a blindfold to shift, if nobody's watching you 24/7. In which case, Mind Bolt works again.
Yes, mindbolt can be stopped.Killer Cyborg wrote:The point isn't that Mind Bolt can't be stopped; the point is that there are plenty of circumstances where TK Acceleration is useless, but Mind Bolt is not.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Against an SDC foe, or a very light MDC for, or against a wounded foe, then it can make all the difference in the world.
And yes, "all they have to do is get out of your line of sight", but that isn't always something that can be done in one attack, especially if there are other members of your party still up and fighting (or if you're in a long hall, or any number of other situations that are easily thought of).
You are putting a lot of IF'S together to make so you could get mindbolt attacks.
Most of the times you point out are just as bad for mind bolt . And against "an SDC foe, or a very light MDC for, or against a wounded foe" well at 50 isp per shot you better make that shot count.
If you've been in a fight long enouph to wound a foe enouph to get him in kill range with a mind bolt you'd be out of ISP.
And any SDC or very light mdc foe really isn't much of a threat anyway. Anyone like that is asking to be one shoted.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Not really.
-Astral Travel
At 670mph, you only get 1 attack till the target's out of range and in the astral plane, attacks deal sdc, so you aren't going to kill then in one hit.
If astral travel is something you do often, use astral bolt instead.
Killer Cyborg wrote:-Indoors in a clean environment
-In Space
-Underwater
You forgot you'd have to be in those areas AND striped naked. That falls under the "Gm would really have to go out of his way to do it".
Killer Cyborg wrote:There are plenty of ways that a good writer can get variety without constantly increasing the power levels.
Well they didn't use any of them. and now normal pistols go from 1D6 to 5D6M. That's just the way it is and i can't say i'm upset with it.
Killer Cyborg wrote: I can agree with that.
This is not one of those times. Super TK is just as playable if it sticks with the standard SDC:MDC ratio as it is with the jacked-up damage rating.
It's not as deadly, but Deadliness does not = Playability.
No, if you use the "standard SDC:MDC ratio" it wouldn't be very SUPER would it?
super TK is a better and more playable power than mind bolt if ALL it was deal damage. With everything else if can do, mind bolt doesn't even come close.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Sure there is.
Having Mind Bolt in certain situations can save your life, or at least let you inflict damage that you otherwise could not inflict.
That may be but those time are so few and far between, how can you justify picking it over a power that will save your life in MORE situations and at a lower ISP cost? I just can't.
Semisonic9 wrote:OMG, "Wall o' Quotes"!!!!!
Please, knock it off, I'm begging you. And I thought Sub liked to quote! There has to be some way to organize your posts that's not so hard on the eyes.
~Semi
I'm sorry if this format bothers you but there really isn't a better way to debate. You have points and counterpoints. If the person makes several points, you have several counterpoints, ect. the only other way would be a seperate post per point, but that becomes unweildly quickly and would be MORE of a mess. I have to agree i haven't found a better way.
cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:In my game, I got rid of the MDC level but made it attack the mind of the target, like a um Mind Bolt. goes straight through armor into the SDC of the guy inside, it only does MDC if the creature being targeted is MDC. Seems to work pretty well, and gives it a niche with TK acceleration attack
Not really when your own buttons should work. (unless you really like velcro)Killer Cyborg wrote:I don't think that the keys would work, since they're all likely to be on one ring (or a single key-card, depending on tech level).
Same with buttons that are attached to a uniform (although this would be likely to work, since they're just sewed into place
Gathering ammo for TKA in prison will take a lot longer than simply shifting a blindfold.)..
we just don't see things the same way. I just don't see "plenty".Killer Cyborg wrote:Which is why I said, "The point isn't that Mind Bolt can't be stopped; the point is that there are plenty of circumstances where TK Acceleration is useless, but Mind Bolt is not."![]()
Fine 40. Is someone going to blow all there ISP on 8d4 damage? Not me.Killer Cyborg wrote:First of all, try 40 ISP, instead of taking the maximum cost for the MD bolt.
The extra strike bonus isn't likely to be necessary.
Second, at 40 ISP, an average 1st level Mind Melter can get 3-4 shots off.
Any psychic stong enouph to have a super is going to use psionics in battle., meaning it's unlikely that they have the 40 isp left IMO. If you feel otherwise, then that's what you believe.Killer Cyborg wrote::roll:
Unless maybe you were using a gun or other weapon.
Or you weren't the one who wounded him.
it's SOOOOOOO rare that every almost every class gets a MDC weapon (or MORE) and MDC armor.Killer Cyborg wrote::Depends on the power levels you play, and how the GM runs things.
MDC is supposed to be fairly rare in Rifts, and the better the MDC armor the rarer it should be.
But from that part of your post, I'm starting to see what the problem here is.
yeah, on your action. How far do you think they can travel in their action. With any kind of terrain, it's impossible to even track someone going that fast AND able to fly through things. (heck they can drop down till just there head is out of the ground and hide behind a bush)Killer Cyborg wrote:I'm not sure why I have to point this out, but when you're travelling astrally, YOU can also travel 670 MPH.
So you can fly after them.
never said they would. If it doesn't, it's going to have a better attack than than a crappy mindbolt.Killer Cyborg wrote:Although I'm not sure why you think that everything in the astral plane instantly flees at full speed whenever they run into a PC....
The first nightbane source book. It has a lot of extra info an astral travel. It goes into MUCH more detail than the basics given in the RUE.Killer Cyborg wrote:Which book is that in?
Possible, but since ammo is VERY easy to get there in no reason you shouldn't have plenty.Killer Cyborg wrote:You wouldn't have to be naked (and I'm starting to wonder what your fixation with nudity is).
You'd just have to be without ammo, in a setting where there is none around.
Why are you without ammo?
I dunno. Maybe you ran out.?
The ammo doesn't have to be in your pouch/hand. use it from the ground.(and carry more than one pouch)Killer Cyborg wrote:Maybe somebody shot your ammo pouch.
Someone stole my bag of rocks? Man are they poor.Killer Cyborg wrote:Maybe it was stolen.
Maybe you should pick it up? (most ammo pouches are attached to a belt, so i don't see this being a problem.)Killer Cyborg wrote:Maybe you dropped it.
2 attacks?Killer Cyborg wrote:Maybe you don't want to spend two attacks for every TKA shot you make (one to pull coins out of a pouch, and one to TKA the coins at the enemy).
Something about space stops you from having a bag/pouch attached to the OUTSIDE of your suit?Killer Cyborg wrote:Maybe you're in space and for some reason you're NOT naked; maybe for some bizarre reason you have a spacesuit on, and you can't reach into your pockets throught the suit.
Right back at you.Killer Cyborg wrote:Get serious with your answers, and start putting more thought into.
See this is were we disagree. I don't see it as bad writing. I've liked the new items/powers and i like the new power levels.Killer Cyborg wrote:So you're not upset by crappy writing.
If you feel that way, change it for your world. IMO it's fine.Killer Cyborg wrote:Yes, it would.
The power could still do mega-damage, it would just be more expensive.
The ability to inflict ANY megadamage is pretty super.
And the ability to toss around hundreds or thousands of pounds of stuff, simply with the power of your mind, that's also pretty super.
Because the rules for Super TK damage don't make sense to YOU. Just becasue that's what you think, doesn't make super Tk the problem. It isn't IMO. The power level of super TK fit's in fine with the other powers. It's mind bolt that's the odd man out.Killer Cyborg wrote:Only because the rules for Super TK damage don't make sense.
this is why i've said IMO, I've said I wouldn't pick it, it's MY thoughts. I don't think every one plays the same way i do or that they should. I'm saying that IMO i could never justify taking mind bolt unless it was the only super left to take or it was needed for another power (like the gizmoteer). It's based on my experience and playing. You are free to think otherwise.Killer Cyborg wrote:How often those times occur depends on the players, the GM, and the campaign.
Believe it or not, not everybody plays exactly the same way you do. Situations that don't occur often in your campaigns might occur more often in other people's campaigns, and vice versa.
The fact is that most times you have limited picks, which means you have to get the most "bang" for your buck. Why not take both? As is, i'd never suggest that anyone take this power unless they have ISP in the hundreds and don't mind blowing through it in one fight. It just doesn't have the "bang" that other powers have. Super Tk does damage AND moves things with your mind, pyro has several extra thing you can do with it AND does nice damage. Even TK acceleration gives you options with special ammo. All mind bolt does is damage and not much of it for it's cost.Killer Cyborg wrote:And you keep trying to reduce this to an either/or scenario, as if people had to pick either Super TK OR Mind Bolt.
Why not get BOTH?
It's not like Mind Melters only ever get one Super Psionic power.
Killer Cyborg wrote:At least we can agree on THIS.
elecgraystone wrote:Not really when your own buttons should work. (unless you really like velcro)Killer Cyborg wrote:I don't think that the keys would work, since they're all likely to be on one ring (or a single key-card, depending on tech level).
Same with buttons that are attached to a uniform (although this would be likely to work, since they're just sewed into place
Gathering ammo for TKA in prison will take a lot longer than simply shifting a blindfold.)..
Killer Cyborg wrote:First of all, try 40 ISP, instead of taking the maximum cost for the MD bolt.
The extra strike bonus isn't likely to be necessary.
Second, at 40 ISP, an average 1st level Mind Melter can get 3-4 shots off.
Fine 40. Is someone going to blow all there ISP on 8d4 damage? Not me.
Killer Cyborg wrote::roll:
Unless maybe you were using a gun or other weapon.
Or you weren't the one who wounded him.
Any psychic stong enouph to have a super is going to use psionics in battle.
Killer Cyborg wrote::Depends on the power levels you play, and how the GM runs things.
MDC is supposed to be fairly rare in Rifts, and the better the MDC armor the rarer it should be.
But from that part of your post, I'm starting to see what the problem here is.
it's SOOOOOOO rare that every almost every class gets a MDC weapon (or MORE) and MDC armor.
i fail to see ANY sign that it's rare in ANY riftsbook put out(with the exception of australia).
Killer Cyborg wrote:I'm not sure why I have to point this out, but when you're travelling astrally, YOU can also travel 670 MPH.
So you can fly after them.
yeah, on your action.
How far do you think they can travel in their action.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Although I'm not sure why you think that everything in the astral plane instantly flees at full speed whenever they run into a PC....
never said they would. If it doesn't, it's going to have a better attack than than a crappy mindbolt.
The first nightbane source book. It has a lot of extra info an astral travel. It goes into MUCH more detail than the basics given in the RUE.Killer Cyborg wrote:Which book is that in?
Possible, but since ammo is VERY easy to get there in no reason you shouldn't have plenty.Killer Cyborg wrote:You wouldn't have to be naked (and I'm starting to wonder what your fixation with nudity is).
You'd just have to be without ammo, in a setting where there is none around.
Why are you without ammo?
I dunno. Maybe you ran out.?
The ammo doesn't have to be in your pouch/hand. use it from the ground.(and carry more than one pouch)Killer Cyborg wrote:Maybe somebody shot your ammo pouch.
Someone stole my bag of rocks? Man are they poor.Killer Cyborg wrote:Maybe it was stolen.![]()
Maybe you should pick it up? (most ammo pouches are attached to a belt, so i don't see this being a problem.)Killer Cyborg wrote:Maybe you dropped it.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Maybe you don't want to spend two attacks for every TKA shot you make (one to pull coins out of a pouch, and one to TKA the coins at the enemy).
2 attacks?It never states anywere that's the case. I'm pretty sure a sling/sling shot shots every attack you have and you have to "pull ammo out of a pouch" for that, why should a mental attack take longer than that?
Killer Cyborg wrote:Maybe you're in space and for some reason you're NOT naked; maybe for some bizarre reason you have a spacesuit on, and you can't reach into your pockets through the suit.
Something about space stops you from having a bag/pouch attached to the OUTSIDE of your suit?
Right back at you.Killer Cyborg wrote:Get serious with your answers, and start putting more thought into.
See this is were we disagree. I don't see it as bad writing. I've liked the new items/powers and i like the new power levels.Killer Cyborg wrote:So you're not upset by crappy writing.
If you feel that way, change it for your world. IMO it's fine.Killer Cyborg wrote:Yes, it would.
The power could still do mega-damage, it would just be more expensive.
The ability to inflict ANY megadamage is pretty super.
And the ability to toss around hundreds or thousands of pounds of stuff, simply with the power of your mind, that's also pretty super.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Only because the rules for Super TK damage don't make sense.
Because the rules for Super TK damage don't make sense to YOU.
Just becasue that's what you think, doesn't make super Tk the problem. It isn't IMO. The power level of super TK fit's in fine with the other powers. It's mind bolt that's the odd man out.
Killer Cyborg wrote:How often those times occur depends on the players, the GM, and the campaign.
Believe it or not, not everybody plays exactly the same way you do. Situations that don't occur often in your campaigns might occur more often in other people's campaigns, and vice versa.
this is why i've said IMO, I've said I wouldn't pick it, it's MY thoughts. I don't think every one plays the same way i do or that they should. I'm saying that IMO i could never justify taking mind bolt unless it was the only super left to take or it was needed for another power (like the gizmoteer). It's based on my experience and playing. You are free to think otherwise.
Killer Cyborg wrote:And you keep trying to reduce this to an either/or scenario, as if people had to pick either Super TK OR Mind Bolt.
Why not get BOTH?
It's not like Mind Melters only ever get one Super Psionic power.
The fact is that most times you have limited picks, which means you have to get the most "bang" for your buck. Why not take both? As is, i'd never suggest that anyone take this power unless they have ISP in the hundreds and don't mind blowing through it in one fight. It just doesn't have the "bang" that other powers have. Super Tk does damage AND moves things with your mind, pyro has several extra thing you can do with it AND does nice damage. Even TK acceleration gives you options with special ammo. All mind bolt does is damage and not much of it for it's cost.
Talavar wrote:Mega-damage equipment is rare for 'civilians' and villagers, but do you really need super-psionics to defeat the equivalent of peasants? I mean, can't you just kick the serfs around without MD equipment or powers?
Killer Cyborg, as the apparent lone mind bolt champion, have you considered that maybe your opinion is wrong?
As I meant at the beginning of all this, and others have added, it's not that mind bolt has no use at all, it's just that it's not very useful vs. most other super-psionics, particularly for equivalent ISP cost.
I mean, in various situations anything can have it's uses, which mind bolt definitely can, it's just that those situations are significantly rarer than situations that don't exclude the use of more damaging, cheaper or more versatile powers.
What shirt doesn't have at least the 6 that the power needs?Killer Cyborg wrote:I'm guessing that you wear a lot more buttons than I do.
Yes, i figured you were smart enouph that i didn't have to spell all that out.Killer Cyborg wrote::lol:
I'll just assume that you mean "Any psychic who is strong enough to have a Super, and who picks a Super Psionic Power that is useful in combat, is going to use psionics in combat".
A quote from the mind melter OCC "the mind melter relies almost entirely on his incredible pyschic powers". Any psychic is going to be using there powers even when they aren't damage causing or supers. Sixth sense, mind block, see invisible, impervious to cold, fire, poison, nightvision, summon inner strength, resist fatigue, presence sense, sense evil ect. The point is that pychics use there powers and most do not have HUGE ISP totals so the chances that that they have 40-50 AFTER being in a fight for a while would most likely mean that they don't have any useful powers. At least that's my experience. If psychics just never you their ISP in worlds you've been in, your experience might be different.Killer Cyborg wrote:They might, or they might not.
More often than not, guns are still the way to go.
You miss my point. I talked about having enouph isp to use the attack. Their are plenty of psychic powers you can use in combat that are not attacks. A psychic character is going to "gasp" use there powers. Lets look at a mind melter for a second. average ISP 90+ME(average9) for a total of 99isp at first. He uses telekinetic force field and/or psychic body field (-30), group mind block (-22) and sixth sense (-2). Not unreasonable powers to use in the first few rounds rounds of combat. None were attack abilities and he's down to 44 isp in 2 melee attacks. I'm sure he can find ways to spend 5+ isp in the next few attacks/rounds.Killer Cyborg wrote:The best damage for a psionic power is the PK Fireball at 6d6 MD, and it's got no range in comparison to a plasma ejector.
Yes, psychics might well use psionics in battle, but not exclusively and very often not as their primary weapon.
But who's going to be attacking the party? torch weilding civilians, or adventurers?Killer Cyborg wrote:Yes, every class of ADVENTURER.
Just like fully automatic weapons are issued to most SOLDIERS in the real world, yet they're pretty rare among civilians.
And this has what to do with who the players are fighting? NONE.Killer Cyborg wrote:The average people of Rifts Earth don't have much in the way of mega-damage capability.
No, once again you miss the point. The use of MDC equipment is common place for adventurers and ANYONE that the GM is going to throw at you. So when we are talking about attacks on the party, i'm talking about how well equiped THEY would be. You keep talking oranges in a debate about apples.Killer Cyborg wrote:You're not reading the books, then.
What you're probably doing is looking at the listed armor and weapons and assuming that it's commonplace, which is kind of like flipping through a Sharper Image catalog and assuming that most people own that kind of stuff.
Since when was moving a simo-attack?Killer Cyborg wrote:Or, arguably, on their action as a simo-attack.
The speed of thought. it's not like real world physics applies. In one action, their out of sight.Killer Cyborg wrote:That depends on what their accelleration rate is.
Dude, read the thread once. Someone said it could be used to attack a CS spying on their camp. I countered that it wouldn't stop them because it couldn't do enouph damage in one hit to kill him and with his 670MPH, he'd be out of range in 1 attack. You once again take my words out of context by reading just my words and not the ones i responded to.Killer Cyborg wrote:So why claim that Mindbolt is useless because the enemy can flee?
Why would the enemy fleeing enter into the equation?
It wouldn't; not unless you were already winning the battle.
Anyone using the astral plane and NOT using the rules in nightbane is missing out on a LOT of info.Killer Cyborg wrote:Great for Nightbane players.
Not so great for Rifts players.
You missed the biggest factor. Astral bolts had a duration, one round per level. Assuming 4 attacks for a 1st level psychic that 4d4 per 10isp or 16d4 for the same isp cost as mind bolts 6d6. While it's not overly impressive at first it quickly becomes awesome. At just 3rd you have a 3d4 atack for 3 melee rounds!Killer Cyborg wrote:But let's look at Astral Bolts for a minute:
Damage- 1d4 per level, vs. 6d6 for Mind Bolt.
Range- 30'+10'/level, vs. 100'/level for Mind Bolt.
Strike Bonus- +3, vs. +4 for Mind Bolt.
Cost- 10 ISP, vs 40 ISP for Mind Bolt.
The only advantages that Astral Bolts have over Mind Bolt are:
-After 10th level, the Astral Bolts do more damage
-Astral Bolts is cheaper.
I can see how Astral Bolts could come in handy, but Mind Bolt is better in most cases.
Very true., however IMO the vast ammount of the time it should never be a problem.Killer Cyborg wrote:That depends on how much you've been using, how much is lying around, and how much time you have to gather more.
In short, it depends on the adventure you're on.
Water, you have a problem. Space shouldn't be a problem, it only has the movement you had when you lost it, so unless you were going real fast just grab it.Killer Cyborg wrote:I'll remind you that in space and underwater (unless you're walking along the bottom), there is no ground.
Why would the items do anything but float there(no real gravity). It really depends how you get to the astal plane and what equipment you have with you. There are several ways to get into the astral plane with equipmentKiller Cyborg wrote:Same with large parts of the astral plane.
All we really disagree with is how much of a disadvantage needing ammo is. IMO it just isn't much of one and use seem to thing it's more of one.Killer Cyborg wrote:Basically, what I've been saying all along:
TKA is great if you have plenty of ammo lying around, but if not then you can't use it.
Can't disagree with you there. However stupid criminals tend to have a short life span.Killer Cyborg wrote:Or stupid. Maybe they thought it was gold nuggets.![]()
Again, can't disagree but if the gM has the fix in for me, i'm sure having my bag of rocks stolen is the least of my problems. Wear clothes with LOTS of buttons. It's hard to palm themKiller Cyborg wrote:Or maybe they knew that those rocks, in your hands, were deadly weapons.
True, but as i said most times it's attached to you and even if it drops most times it's not a problem.Killer Cyborg wrote:Depends on what's chasing you (or any number of other circumstances).
WP Targeting. "under attacks per round. Unless stated otherwise, each thrown item counts as one attack/action". It does note that "some exotic weapons may require a spinning action or time to throw that takes up more than one attacks" but it doesn't list ANY weapons that fall under this. SO blowguns, bommerangs , slings slingshots, ect only take ONE action to attack with because none are stated as taking more than one attack to use.Killer Cyborg wrote:What makes you sure that slings & slingshots fire that quickly?
I don't see any mention of it in the rules.
Again with the maybe. I'm talking about MOST times. You have to pick your powers so that the help you out MOST of the time. Could it happen that way, sure it could. Am i going to pick a power just in that unlikely event? noKiller Cyborg wrote:Maybe.
Or maybe you didn't have time to pack your rocks.
Again, all sorts of stuff happens while adventuring, and you don't always have time to pack everything you need for every occasion.
It all depends on the circumstances.
Why did i need to say more? you accuse me of not putting thought into my replies and it seems to you you were guilty of the same. I've thought about all my posts.Killer Cyborg wrote:That's a great example.
Instead of actually thinking about a response, you toss off a "I'm rubber, you're glue" type retort.
Fine. Now that we agree on that we don't have to talk about it anymore.Killer Cyborg wrote:Yes, I'd say that we disagree here.
Yes almighty role playing god. I'm SOOOO sorry i think different than you. How could i EVER do that.Killer Cyborg wrote:Your opinion is wrong.
Because it's a game and it makes the power better in both my eyes AND the eyes of the fine people that made the book?Killer Cyborg wrote:Maybe I'm not seeing it.
Explain to me why 1d4x10 SDC = 1d4 MD, and how exactly that makes sense to you.
Sorry, but IMO mindbolt always sucked. It just sucks MORE now that other powers got better and it didn't. Again if you don't like the canon CHANGE it. nerf super TK if it makes you happy. IMO it makes more sense to boost mindbolt that nerf super TK, but that a matter of personal preferance. The point is that mindbolt just doesn't compair with the other powers.Killer Cyborg wrote:Sure, NOW.
Back in the original main book, before power creep set in, Super TK only did 1d4x10 SDC per 100 lbs. Period.
You could only inflict MD by inflicting more than 100 points of SDC damage.
Then some genius decided that 1d4x10=1d4x100, and NOW Mind Bolt is underpowered in comparison.
Mainly because you seem to think your way it the only right way and you seem to have no problem saying as much in these posts.Killer Cyborg wrote:So what are you arguing about?
The whole point of this thread was that someone was trying to see if he was the only one that thought that no one would EVER take this power as is. You have pointed out reasons that you think people SHOULD take it and i've pointed out why they SHOULDN'T.Killer Cyborg wrote:Hey, suit yourself.
But there are reasons to take it, as I keep pointing out.
I can't agree more. I can see that this debate with Killer Cyborg will never end unless i do something myself. So i'm pulling the plug on my end. (plus i'm not a big fan a people insulting me for no reason) So from this point on, have fun debating yourself Killer Cyborg. I'm moving on to other threads. I've said eveything i think i need to say on this subject. Don't take this as an admition that i agree with your point of view Killer Cyborg. I just tired of rehashing the same point and i don't see i have any chance of modifying your outlook in the least.Talavar wrote:Killer Cyborg, as the apparent lone mind bolt champion, have you considered that maybe your opinion is wrong? As I meant at the beginning of all this, and others have added, it's not that mind bolt has no use at all, it's just that it's not very useful vs. most other super-psionics, particularly for equivalent ISP cost.
I mean, in various situations anything can have it's uses, which mind bolt definitely can, it's just that those situations are significantly rarer than situations that don't exclude the use of more damaging, cheaper or more versatile powers.
Only to collect on the life insurance policy!gadrin wrote:why don't you two get married ?
Because they might pick something useful? Might as well roll random for skills and spells learned too!Kevin Beckman wrote:This is why I don't let PCs who want to play psychics pick their own powers.
Well unless they make a pretty decent backstory to it.
elecgraystone wrote:I can see that this debate with Killer Cyborg will never end unless i do something myself. So i'm pulling the plug on my end.
Don't take this as an admition that i agree with your point of view Killer Cyborg.
elecgraystone wrote:What shirt doesn't have at least the 6 that the power needs?Killer Cyborg wrote:I'm guessing that you wear a lot more buttons than I do.
Killer Cyborg wrote:They might, or they might not.
More often than not, guns are still the way to go.
A quote from the mind melter OCC "the mind melter relies almost entirely on his incredible pyschic powers".
Any psychic is going to be using there powers even when they aren't damage causing or supers. Sixth sense, mind block, see invisible, impervious to cold, fire, poison, nightvision, summon inner strength, resist fatigue, presence sense, sense evil ect. The point is that pychics use there powers and most do not have HUGE ISP totals so the chances that that they have 40-50 AFTER being in a fight for a while would most likely mean that they don't have any useful powers. At least that's my experience. If psychics just never you their ISP in worlds you've been in, your experience might be different.
You miss my point. I talked about having enouph isp to use the attack. Their are plenty of psychic powers you can use in combat that are not attacks. A psychic character is going to "gasp" use there powers. Lets look at a mind melter for a second. average ISP 90+ME(average9) for a total of 99isp at first.Killer Cyborg wrote:The best damage for a psionic power is the PK Fireball at 6d6 MD, and it's got no range in comparison to a plasma ejector.
Yes, psychics might well use psionics in battle, but not exclusively and very often not as their primary weapon.
He uses telekinetic force field and/or psychic body field (-30), group mind block (-22) and sixth sense (-2). Not unreasonable powers to use in the first few rounds rounds of combat. None were attack abilities and he's down to 44 isp in 2 melee attacks. I'm sure he can find ways to spend 5+ isp in the next few attacks/rounds.
But who's going to be attacking the party? torch weilding civilians, or adventurers?Killer Cyborg wrote:Yes, every class of ADVENTURER.
Just like fully automatic weapons are issued to most SOLDIERS in the real world, yet they're pretty rare among civilians.
And this has what to do with who the players are fighting? NONE.Killer Cyborg wrote:The average people of Rifts Earth don't have much in the way of mega-damage capability.![]()
Killer Cyborg wrote:You're not reading the books, then.
What you're probably doing is looking at the listed armor and weapons and assuming that it's commonplace, which is kind of like flipping through a Sharper Image catalog and assuming that most people own that kind of stuff.
No, once again you miss the point. The use of MDC equipment is common place for adventurers and ANYONE that the GM is going to throw at you. So when we are talking about attacks on the party, i'm talking about how well equiped THEY would be. You keep talking oranges in a debate about apples.
Since when was moving a simo-attack?Killer Cyborg wrote:Or, arguably, on their action as a simo-attack.
The speed of thought. it's not like real world physics applies. In one action, their out of sight.Killer Cyborg wrote:That depends on what their accelleration rate is.
Killer Cyborg wrote:So why claim that Mindbolt is useless because the enemy can flee?
Why would the enemy fleeing enter into the equation?
It wouldn't; not unless you were already winning the battle.
Dude, read the thread once. Someone said it could be used to attack a CS spying on their camp. I countered that it wouldn't stop them because it couldn't do enouph damage in one hit to kill him and with his 670MPH, he'd be out of range in 1 attack. You once again take my words out of context by reading just my words and not the ones i responded to.
Anyone using the astral plane and NOT using the rules in nightbane is missing out on a LOT of info.Killer Cyborg wrote:Great for Nightbane players.
Not so great for Rifts players.
Killer Cyborg wrote:But let's look at Astral Bolts for a minute:
Damage- 1d4 per level, vs. 6d6 for Mind Bolt.
Range- 30'+10'/level, vs. 100'/level for Mind Bolt.
Strike Bonus- +3, vs. +4 for Mind Bolt.
Cost- 10 ISP, vs 40 ISP for Mind Bolt.
The only advantages that Astral Bolts have over Mind Bolt are:
-After 10th level, the Astral Bolts do more damage
-Astral Bolts is cheaper.
I can see how Astral Bolts could come in handy, but Mind Bolt is better in most cases.
You missed the biggest factor. Astral bolts had a duration, one round per level. Assuming 4 attacks for a 1st level psychic that 4d4 per 10isp or 16d4 for the same isp cost as mind bolts 6d6. While it's not overly impressive at first it quickly becomes awesome. At just 3rd you have a 3d4 atack for 3 melee rounds!
Killer Cyborg wrote:That depends on how much you've been using, how much is lying around, and how much time you have to gather more.
In short, it depends on the adventure you're on.
Very true., however IMO the vast ammount of the time it should never be a problem.
Killer Cyborg wrote:I'll remind you that in space and underwater (unless you're walking along the bottom), there is no ground.
Water, you have a problem. Space shouldn't be a problem, it only has the movement you had when you lost it, so unless you were going real fast just grab it.
Why would the items do anything but float there(no real gravity). It really depends how you get to the astal plane and what equipment you have with you. There are several ways to get into the astral plane with equipmentKiller Cyborg wrote:Same with large parts of the astral plane.
All we really disagree with is how much of a disadvantage needing ammo is. IMO it just isn't much of one and use seem to thing it's more of one.Killer Cyborg wrote:Basically, what I've been saying all along:
TKA is great if you have plenty of ammo lying around, but if not then you can't use it.
Can't disagree with you there. However stupid criminals tend to have a short life span.Killer Cyborg wrote:Or stupid. Maybe they thought it was gold nuggets.![]()
Again, can't disagree but if the GM has the fix in for me, i'm sure having my bag of rocks stolen is the least of my problems. Wear clothes with LOTS of buttons. It's hard to palm themKiller Cyborg wrote:Or maybe they knew that those rocks, in your hands, were deadly weapons.
WP Targeting. "under attacks per round. Unless stated otherwise, each thrown item counts as one attack/action". It does note that "some exotic weapons may require a spinning action or time to throw that takes up more than one attacks" but it doesn't list ANY weapons that fall under this. SO blowguns, bommerangs , slings slingshots, ect only take ONE action to attack with because none are stated as taking more than one attack to use.Killer Cyborg wrote:What makes you sure that slings & slingshots fire that quickly?
I don't see any mention of it in the rules.
Again with the maybe. I'm talking about MOST times. You have to pick your powers so that the help you out MOST of the time. Could it happen that way, sure it could. Am i going to pick a power just in that unlikely event? noKiller Cyborg wrote:Maybe.
Or maybe you didn't have time to pack your rocks.
Again, all sorts of stuff happens while adventuring, and you don't always have time to pack everything you need for every occasion.
It all depends on the circumstances.
Yes almighty role playing god.Killer Cyborg wrote:Your opinion is wrong.
Because it's a game and it makes the power better in both my eyes AND the eyes of the fine people that made the book?Killer Cyborg wrote:Maybe I'm not seeing it.
Explain to me why 1d4x10 SDC = 1d4 MD, and how exactly that makes sense to you.
Sorry, but IMO mindbolt always sucked. It just sucks MORE now that other powers got better and it didn't.Killer Cyborg wrote:Sure, NOW.
Back in the original main book, before power creep set in, Super TK only did 1d4x10 SDC per 100 lbs. Period.
You could only inflict MD by inflicting more than 100 points of SDC damage.
Then some genius decided that 1d4x10=1d4x100, and NOW Mind Bolt is underpowered in comparison.
Again if you don't like the canon CHANGE it.
Mainly because you seem to think your way it the only right way and you seem to have no problem saying as much in these posts.Killer Cyborg wrote:So what are you arguing about?
The whole point of this thread was that someone was trying to see if he was the only one that thought that no one would EVER take this power as is. You have pointed out reasons that you think people SHOULD take it and i've pointed out why they SHOULDN'T.Killer Cyborg wrote:Hey, suit yourself.
But there are reasons to take it, as I keep pointing out.
Yes almighty role playing god.Killer Cyborg
[quote][quote="Killer Cyborg wrote:Your opinion is wrong.
Talavar wrote:Yes almighty role playing god.Killer Cyborg
[quote][quote="Killer Cyborg wrote:Your opinion is wrong.
Apology accepted.
You're simply wrong here.
My way IS the only right way, so why should I have a problem saying it?
Mystics are just one example of a magic class that doesn't learns spells. Also several psi clases state that people are trained to be that class (with those powers) Take psi-ghost for example. "these crafty mutants have been known to adopt major and master psychics into there fold and train then as psi-ghosts". You might be born with psionic powers but the books seem to say you can "train" for different abilities.Kevin Beckman wrote:Oh please they're not even related. Being psychic is something you discover. You're either born with it or you're not. Skills and spells are learned(unless they are granted by special cases.)
Not from the players view. When you's let a mystic pick his spells and you wouldn't let i mind melter do the same when neither one said to in the rule just looks like you have it out for the pychic guy.Kevin Beckman wrote:How? The powers aren't the same.
Seems odd. If your a bully and like to hurt people why would your mind just give you pyschic surgery and read portal? Powers should be tailored to the characters personality. If your going to randomly pick powers, at least limit them to powers that make sense.Kevin Beckman wrote:Well technically they roll dice to determine but anyways it's only the initial powers I make them roll for. After experience a psychic should know how to better shape and manage his/her own power.
yes and that's is my point. If a character grew up in a volcanic area and he got hydokinesis because of a random roll, that's lame. The character should build up a character with a personality and background. If you think they picked a power that doesn't fit that personality/background veto it, but a random roll means that there personality and background mean nothing. You get a power just cuz the dice rolled it, not becasue it makes sense.Kevin Beckman wrote:Well what the hell did you expect? They aren't born KNOWING they're psychic. Their intial powers would be based off the nature of their early development and teen years. If they grew up very insecure they could have telepathy or if they grew up on a volcanic mountain they could have pyrokinesis.
very true if you pick the powers BEFORE you make up the backstory. When i make up a character, i have in mind what kind of character i'm looking for. A sneaky guy, a combat guy, a tech guy ect. What you are saying every one else get to pick what kind of guy they want to be (by picking their OCC) EXCEPT the psionic guy, He has to wait till the random dice roll TELLS him what kind of character he is.Kevin Beckman wrote:I mean it's not that hard to come up with some backstory to justify any power.
Thank you.Killer Cyborg wrote:if you don't respond back I will not take it as a sign that I've changed your mind.
elecgraystone wrote:Thank you.Killer Cyborg wrote:if you don't respond back I will not take it as a sign that I've changed your mind.
I'd have no problem with that. i thought you ment totally random picks. It seems fair enouph.Kevin Beckman wrote:Players already have an idea of what kind of character they want and what powers they want and they build from there. I take a look over the character and give them a thumbs up or thumbs down. If they need help with it I'll help them. I've never forced anyone to randomly roll for psionics.