Some Dimensions Can't Support M.D.C. Physics?

[lather]

either way, MDC losses the "no SDC weapon can scratch it" trait.

I am ok with that.
After all, a 500 SDC rubber tire is "healthier" than most of the monsters encountered in the wild.

[Mouser13]

Their is no reference for M.D.C. in PFRPG, far has we know it always been S.D.C.. What was getting at was that if M.D.C. weapons exist magic does M.D.C.(Three galaxies has a reference). It no longer has anything to do with magic levels. It just balance anymore.

actually, MDC tech and MDC magic are not related. MDC magic is based on the amount of magic energy ambient in the setting. MDC technology is a quirk of physics in a setting.

so you can have MDC technology in a low magic setting. after all, earth made MDC tech in Chaos Earth/Rifts long before the cataclysm, when magic was at the SDC BtS levels.

if a setting can support MDC it can support either. but that does not mean magic will be at MDC levels because technology is, or that technology will be MDC because magic is.

I say just use the rule that says 1 MD = 100 SDC. It is the better rule, by a lot, I think.

i agree. having a 3D6md rifle turn 3D6x100sd is much better than it suddenly being 3D6sd. or alternatel, perhaps only a tenfold increase, where in non MDC worlds the MDC tech converts at a rate of 1mdc = 10sdc. then that 3D6md rifle is 3D6x10sd, a bit less powerful and easier to balance.

either way, MDC losses the "no SDC weapon can scratch it" trait.

Yes, that was the org idea behind it, but over time that has changed for balance reason. I was using has a example tri-galaxy which magic is M.D.C., though it doesn't have high magic. So the author have broken that core idea for balance reason.

for the conversion for S.D.C. their is a particle beam in one of the books that does 2D6X10 or 2D8X10 S.D.C can't remember which. Since it seems all particle beam do the same damage in rifts 1D4X10 you could say that their is x3-x4 on damage for M.D.C. weapons. Could go for about the same for M.D.C. armor.

[lather]

I am ok with that.
After all, a 500 SDC rubber tire is "healthier" than most of the monsters encountered in the wild.

True... but most animals in the forest don't have 12 layers of kevlar and other misc polymers protecting them from being shot.

And if they do.......

run.

Yea, never said it was pretty hehe

[Kelorin]

Their is no reference for M.D.C. in PFRPG, far has we know it always been S.D.C.. What was getting at was that if M.D.C. weapons exist magic does M.D.C.(Three galaxies has a reference). It no longer has anything to do with magic levels. It just balance anymore.

actually, MDC tech and MDC magic are not related. MDC magic is based on the amount of magic energy ambient in the setting. MDC technology is a quirk of physics in a setting.

so you can have MDC technology in a low magic setting. after all, earth made MDC tech in Chaos Earth/Rifts long before the cataclysm, when magic was at the SDC BtS levels.

if a setting can support MDC it can support either. but that does not mean magic will be at MDC levels because technology is, or that technology will be MDC because magic is.

I say just use the rule that says 1 MD = 100 SDC. It is the better rule, by a lot, I think.

i agree. having a 3D6md rifle turn 3D6x100sd is much better than it suddenly being 3D6sd. or alternatel, perhaps only a tenfold increase, where in non MDC worlds the MDC tech converts at a rate of 1mdc = 10sdc. then that 3D6md rifle is 3D6x10sd, a bit less powerful and easier to balance.

either way, MDC losses the "no SDC weapon can scratch it" trait.

These are good points. This idea of MDC technology getting converted because the environment can't 'support' MDC technology is a weak argument. This also brings up a kind of chicken and the egg scenario. Does a dimension or realm somehow promote the development of MDC technology after a certain threshold has been reached, or is the environment simply an SDC environment, until the tech or magic level for MDC is reached?

Robotech was an MDC environment, and had MDC level tech before the arrival of the SDF-1. What would have happened on Rifts Earth, if the tech level wasn't high enough for MDC tech when the Rifts hit? What if the Rifts cataclysm occured 2 centuries before? Long before MDC alloys, and high-energy weapons? According the book, magic is MDC due to the amount of magic in the environment. So would tech be wiped out, because it wasn't able to compete in a newly formed MDC environment?

Similarly, I'm curious how everyone here sees Splicers? It is described as a magic-null or dead zone, but they have MDC tech. It also states that Creatures of Magic, and Supernatural Beings become very uncomfortable there? Is that because of the existence of MDC tech, while they become SDC? Or they remain MDC because the environment is MDC compliant?

edit:
What about the Astral Realm? Purely a realm of thought and dreams right, but connects all realms together. Psyscape and Kingsdale have Astral Domains there. When psychics from those locations use Astal Transference, does gear remain MDC, or turn SDC?

[Kelorin]

Did anyone actually read my previous post?

Yeah.
Read Transdimensional TMNT.

Unfortunately, I don't currently have access to Transdimensional TMNT. What was it in that book, you wanted me to look at?

[demos606]

Their is no reference for M.D.C. in PFRPG, far has we know it always been S.D.C.. What was getting at was that if M.D.C. weapons exist magic does M.D.C.(Three galaxies has a reference). It no longer has anything to do with magic levels. It just balance anymore.

actually, MDC tech and MDC magic are not related. MDC magic is based on the amount of magic energy ambient in the setting. MDC technology is a quirk of physics in a setting.

so you can have MDC technology in a low magic setting. after all, earth made MDC tech in Chaos Earth/Rifts long before the cataclysm, when magic was at the SDC BtS levels.

if a setting can support MDC it can support either. but that does not mean magic will be at MDC levels because technology is, or that technology will be MDC because magic is.

I say just use the rule that says 1 MD = 100 SDC. It is the better rule, by a lot, I think.

i agree. having a 3D6md rifle turn 3D6x100sd is much better than it suddenly being 3D6sd. or alternatel, perhaps only a tenfold increase, where in non MDC worlds the MDC tech converts at a rate of 1mdc = 10sdc. then that 3D6md rifle is 3D6x10sd, a bit less powerful and easier to balance.

either way, MDC losses the "no SDC weapon can scratch it" trait.

These are good points. This idea of MDC technology getting converted because the environment can't 'support' MDC technology is a weak argument. This also brings up a kind of chicken and the egg scenario. Does a dimension or realm somehow promote the development of MDC technology after a certain threshold has been reached, or is the environment simply an SDC environment, until the tech or magic level for MDC is reached?

Robotech was an MDC environment, and had MDC level tech before the arrival of the SDF-1. What would have happened on Rifts Earth, if the tech level wasn't high enough for MDC tech when the Rifts hit? What if the Rifts cataclysm occured 2 centuries before? Long before MDC alloys, and high-energy weapons? According the book, magic is MDC due to the amount of magic in the environment. So would tech be wiped out, because it wasn't able to compete in a newly formed MDC environment?

Similarly, I'm curious how everyone here sees Splicers? It is described as a magic-null or dead zone, but they have MDC tech. It also states that Creatures of Magic, and Supernatural Beings become very uncomfortable there? Is that because of the existence of MDC tech, while they become SDC? Or they remain MDC because the environment is MDC compliant?

edit:
What about the Astral Realm? Purely a realm of thought and dreams right, but connects all realms together. Psyscape and Kingsdale have Astral Domains there. When psychics from those locations use Astal Transference, does gear remain MDC, or turn SDC?

Splicers is a thru and thru MD setting. While SN beings and CoM get hosed instantly they don't become SDC like they would upon going to say Palladium Fantasy. The Splicers world is in a magical deadzone, thats why SN and CoM are miserable and looking for a way out immediately; if they choose to cast spells though, the effects remain MD.

The Astral Realm iirc is a pure SD environment but it's been a while and I don't have that info in front of me.

[JTwig]

Their is no reference for M.D.C. in PFRPG, far has we know it always been S.D.C.. What was getting at was that if M.D.C. weapons exist magic does M.D.C.(Three galaxies has a reference). It no longer has anything to do with magic levels. It just balance anymore.

actually, MDC tech and MDC magic are not related. MDC magic is based on the amount of magic energy ambient in the setting. MDC technology is a quirk of physics in a setting.

so you can have MDC technology in a low magic setting. after all, earth made MDC tech in Chaos Earth/Rifts long before the cataclysm, when magic was at the SDC BtS levels.

if a setting can support MDC it can support either. but that does not mean magic will be at MDC levels because technology is, or that technology will be MDC because magic is.

I say just use the rule that says 1 MD = 100 SDC. It is the better rule, by a lot, I think.

i agree. having a 3D6md rifle turn 3D6x100sd is much better than it suddenly being 3D6sd. or alternatel, perhaps only a tenfold increase, where in non MDC worlds the MDC tech converts at a rate of 1mdc = 10sdc. then that 3D6md rifle is 3D6x10sd, a bit less powerful and easier to balance.

either way, MDC losses the "no SDC weapon can scratch it" trait.

These are good points. This idea of MDC technology getting converted because the environment can't 'support' MDC technology is a weak argument. This also brings up a kind of chicken and the egg scenario. Does a dimension or realm somehow promote the development of MDC technology after a certain threshold has been reached, or is the environment simply an SDC environment, until the tech or magic level for MDC is reached?

Robotech was an MDC environment, and had MDC level tech before the arrival of the SDF-1. What would have happened on Rifts Earth, if the tech level wasn't high enough for MDC tech when the Rifts hit? What if the Rifts cataclysm occured 2 centuries before? Long before MDC alloys, and high-energy weapons? According the book, magic is MDC due to the amount of magic in the environment. So would tech be wiped out, because it wasn't able to compete in a newly formed MDC environment?

Similarly, I'm curious how everyone here sees Splicers? It is described as a magic-null or dead zone, but they have MDC tech. It also states that Creatures of Magic, and Supernatural Beings become very uncomfortable there? Is that because of the existence of MDC tech, while they become SDC? Or they remain MDC because the environment is MDC compliant?

edit:
What about the Astral Realm? Purely a realm of thought and dreams right, but connects all realms together. Psyscape and Kingsdale have Astral Domains there. When psychics from those locations use Astal Transference, does gear remain MDC, or turn SDC?

Splicers is a thru and thru MD setting. While SN beings and CoM get hosed instantly they don't become SDC like they would upon going to say Palladium Fantasy. The Splicers world is in a magical deadzone, thats why SN and CoM are miserable and looking for a way out immediately; if they choose to cast spells though, the effects remain MD.

The Astral Realm iirc is a pure SD environment but it's been a while and I don't have that info in front of me.

Basically it sounds like the original explanations for M.D.C. tech and M.D.C. magic were good, until people starting mixing the settings, which caused some problems and had Palladium back track on it original ruling and state that some settings can never be M.D.C. (like HU2, PFRPG, etc.) and that M.D.C. tech and magic will be converted to S.D.C., and some setting will always be M.D.C. no matter what (so magic will do M.D.C., and supernatural creatures and creatures of magic will be M.D.C. in Splicer and Robotech even though both setting have low magic levels, though in both case M.D.C. may be reduces but not eliminated).

So now we have settings like HU2 that have races with high-powered tech that would do M.D.C. in an M.D.C. setting, but can only do S.D.C. because they are in an S.D.C. setting (checkout Aliens Unlimited for details and conversion notes).

So to answer the chick and the egg question quoted above, in all dimension the tech level will advance enough to be capable of being M.D.C., but in some settings such weapons and equipment will remain S.D.C. until brought into a dimension that can support the "physics" of M.D.C. So a race like the Atorians from HU2 would have M.D.C. in a Mega-Damage setting, even though their weapons and equipment are only S.D.C. in their native dimension.

My personal conversion for M.D.C. tech items is not a strait M.D.C. to S.D.C. conversion as suggested by the rule. Instead I increase most weapon damage by 50% (so a 3d6 laser rifle would do 5d6, equal to a high-powered conventional rifle but with the range of a laser weapon), while keeping the ranges the same. Body armor I double their M.D.C. to get their S.D.C., and then apply an armor rating ranging from 11-18 (using the body armor AR rules and not the natural/robot/vehicle AR rules). Power armors I increase their main body M.D.C. by 50%, and then give them a robotic/natural/vehicle armor rating ranging from 13-17. Gaint robots and vehicles I double their main body M.D.C. to get their S.D.C., and then give them a robotic/natural/vehicle armor rating ranging from 8-18 (varies with vehicle type).

This brings the equipment inline with the power levels of HU2, which is still much more powerful than PFRPG, or BtS but workable for a GM. It allows the tech to remain superiour, without completely overpowering the setting (no gods or adult dragons getting fried by one shot from a burst firing M.D.C. weapon).

[Killer Cyborg]

Did anyone actually read my previous post?

Yeah.
Read Transdimensional TMNT.

Unfortunately, I don't currently have access to Transdimensional TMNT. What was it in that book, you wanted me to look at?

For one thing, it has rules for making tech devices that will take you from one dimension to another.
It also spells out how time and dimensional travel works.
It's really one of Palladium's better books.

[DhAkael]

Here's an easy answer...
WHO CARES!

[lather]

I do. So what?

[Kelorin]

Here's an easy answer...
WHO CARES!

Quite a few of us, actually.

I've gone back to the source of all MDC. The original Robotech rpg, which was the first appearance of MDC in the Palladium megaverse. Here's an excerpt.

"Mega-Damage Capacity (M.D.C.) ... It is a structural damage capacity that reflects staggering advancements in science and technology. A technology that has created new super-tough alloys, micronized energy sources, galaxy spanning vehicles, and weapons with more power, precision, and range than any 20th century weapon. In effect, M.D.C. is a super-structural damage capacity that far outstrips the normal S.D.C. ... Most conventional weapons do absolutely no damage to a mega-structure, even when combined."

Odd, it doesn't mention anything about a particular special metaphysics that allow the existence of these mega-structures in Robotech Earth. If anything, the italiziced portions of the text make clear to me that anywhere S.D.C. can exist, so can M.D.C. since M.D.C. is nothing more than a superset of regular S.D.C. The key was the level of technological advancement to produce super-alloys and other relatded technologies.

To say a dimension can support one, and not the other is like saying that a dimension can support electricity in the watt and kilowatt range. Megawatts, and gigawatts simply won't work there. Sorry, all 120 GB hard drives turn in to 120 byte hard drives in this dimension. It's a physics thing.

Using modern Earth as an example, if you went back a couple of centuries, they would tell you that manned flight is impossible, and they were right. They were right, up until the time that manned flight did become possible. I think the same thing applies to some of these so-called S.D.C realms like HU, and BtS. I don't think of them as S.D.C. dimensions. I consider them as pre-M.D.C. dimensions. Their tech levels haven't progressed far enough to have innovated M.D.C. technology, and the 'amount of ambient magic' available also relegates superpowers, psionics, and magic to S.D.C. levels. This is especially true considering the inferences that Rifts is a kind amalgam of BtS and HU Earths.

Palladium is a unique case. I think the dimensional barriers that protect the Palladium realm do in fact have an effect on M.D.C. level tech coming into that dimension. Those barriers may have a similar effect on any advanced technology even from S.D.C. realms like HU, not unlike the very particular rules that can be set on Astral Domains, which can prevent gunpowder from working, or alter other laws of physics. My conclusion on Palladium is that the entire realm is the equivalent of a massive Astral Domain created by the Palladium Gods or more specifically, the Old Ones. The Old Ones therefore can dictate the terms of the natural laws within their personal realm. They didn't want M.D.C. magic or tech there during the great wars, and changed the dimensional rules to make sure M.D.C. stayed out.

[Kelorin]

Splicers is a thru and thru MD setting. While SN beings and CoM get hosed instantly they don't become SDC like they would upon going to say Palladium Fantasy. The Splicers world is in a magical deadzone, thats why SN and CoM are miserable and looking for a way out immediately; if they choose to cast spells though, the effects remain MD.

Why wouldn't they? Rifts has repeatedly made the point that the reason SN and CoM are M.D.C. in Rifts is due to the phenomenally high level of magic that is unique to that realm. I interpret this to mean that, as per Rifts reasoning, there is not enough ambient magic to support M.D.C. level magic. As a result, SN and CoM revert to their natural S.D.C. states.

Similarly, I think it should be possible to have a super-high magic realm where there is a Rifts level of ambient magic available, so magic, superpowers, and psionics would be M.D.C. but the tech level hasn't advanced to the point of creating M.D.C. level weapons and armor yet, Kind of what HU would be like with Rifts. M.D.C. magic, S.D.C. tech.

[demos606]

The reason naturally MD critter remain MD on Splicers is because the rest of the entire dimension supports magic just fine, there's just an oddity on that specific planet that hoses magic into nonexistance. The specific oddity in this case is a complete and total absence of ley lines. Not an alltime low in their activity like you see in BtS, a complete absence of ley lines and nexii on/in/around the planet. It's a magical deadzone in an otherwise magical equivalent dimension to at least Rifts Earth and possibly Phase World for all we know. As it happens, the setting doesn't explore anything beyond the confines of the single planet so we don't really know much about the rest of the dimension but Carmen was very clear in details that the magic deadzone doesn't extend much beyond the single planet.

[Rallan]

I'm not up on Phase World entirely, but if the dimension isn't one of high magic, then magic shouldn't do MDC there.

What about the pre-Rifts Golden Age of Rifts Earth then? It was described as being as low-magic as any of Palladium's modern Earth settings (possibly even lower), but still had functioning MDC technology.

[Killer Cyborg]

What about the pre-Rifts Golden Age of Rifts Earth then? It was described as being as low-magic as any of Palladium's modern Earth settings (possibly even lower), but still had functioning MDC technology.

The high levels of magic were never responsible for MDC technology.
Only for MDC magic.

[Talavar]

What about the pre-Rifts Golden Age of Rifts Earth then? It was described as being as low-magic as any of Palladium's modern Earth settings (possibly even lower), but still had functioning MDC technology.

What KC said: MDC technology has nothing to do with magic. That's why it's technology after all, not techno-wizardry or magic items.

[Rallan]

So anywise, we're six pages into this thread now. Have we finally agreed that the "MDC becomes SDC in some settings" stuff in the books is just a quick fix that's powered by pure handwavium and has no real in-game justification?

[lather]

So anywise, we're six pages into this thread now. Have we finally agreed that the "MDC becomes SDC in some settings" stuff in the books is just a quick fix that's powered by pure handwavium and has no real in-game justification?

Does not need in-game justification.

[Killer Cyborg]

So anywise, we're six pages into this thread now. Have we finally agreed that the "MDC becomes SDC in some settings" stuff in the books is just a quick fix that's powered by pure handwavium and has no real in-game justification?

Does not need in-game justification.

Actually, yeah, it does.
In order to suspend our disbelief and enjoy the game, we need to have a plausible in-game reason for things.
Otherwise it's like a movie where the actors refer to the script to see what happens next, only it's not funny, and not meant to be.

[lather]

They are different universes in one megaverse.
Can't that be enough?
A character goes to another universe and suddenly something works different... well that's the nature of things, he says.

[Killer Cyborg]

They are different universes in one megaverse.
Can't that be enough?
A character goes to another universe and suddenly something works different... well that's the nature of things, he says.

No.
Because it simply doesn't make a lick of sense, as we keep pointing out.

[Talavar]

They are different universes in one megaverse.
Can't that be enough?
A character goes to another universe and suddenly something works different... well that's the nature of things, he says.

Did you just start reading this thread on this page? There are many reasons presented why this isn't enough.

[Kelorin]

Killer Cyborg, Rallan & Talavar. I agree with both of you that simply accepting that M.D.C. becoming S.D.C. in certain dimensions is unacceptable for all the plausibility reasons, previously outlined. Like you, I'm an old-school Palladium fan, and have been around since the early days of Palladium, Heroes Unlimited, and Robotech. I believe, like you do that based on the previously established definitions of M.D.C. as a superset of standard S.D.C. there is no reason for it to be nerfed when going to so-called S.D.C. dimensions.

For the most part, dimensions like BtS, Nightbane, HU, really shouldn't be considered S.D.C. dimensions, but rather pre-M.D.C. dimensions, meaning that they haven't got sufficient ambient magic for magic to M.D.C., nor have they reached a sufficient level of technical advancement for tech to be M.D.C. either. This however should not have any bearing on advanced superscience or M.D.C. equipment in those dimensions. As far as I'm concerned, M.D.C. weapons & equipment from Splicers, Robotech, or Rifts will remain as M.D.C. weapons & equipment in Nightbane, Beyond the Supernatural, Heroes Unlimited, System Failure, Ninjas & Superspies, TMNT, Mechanoids, and Recon.

The Palladium FRPG dimension, however I consider to be unique. I've even provided a plausible ingame explanation for Palladium that accounts for the alteration of M.D.C. weapons & equipment to S.D.C., because of Palladium's protected status, or as a result of the influence of the Old Ones. If the Old Ones are in-fact the source of all magic in the megaverse, it is well within their ability to create a dimensional barrier that will affect the laws of physics within their home dimension.

With respect to demos606, Splicers states that Magic doesn't exist in Splicers. There aren't any ley lines, not even the weak ones of BtS or Nightbane. Creatures of magic find the Splicers world to be a frightening mystical dead zone where they feel weak and vulnerable. There would be no reason for them to feel weak and vulnerable if they remained as M.D.C. beings, despite not having easy access to magic, the rest of their powers, would continue to work normally. Rifts is clear in that the reason for creature of magic to become M.D.C. on Rifts is due to the amount of ambient magic in the environment. Ambient magic that simply doesn't exist on Splicers. By definition, that should mean that they revert to S.D.C. levels.

[Kelorin]

I'm not up on Phase World entirely, but if the dimension isn't one of high magic, then magic shouldn't do MDC there.

What about the pre-Rifts Golden Age of Rifts Earth then? It was described as being as low-magic as any of Palladium's modern Earth settings (possibly even lower), but still had functioning MDC technology.

I completely agree with the above statement. Folks need to separate the idea the M.D.C. tech and M.D.C. magic need the same criteria to exist. Golden Age Rifts had M.D.C. tech, and no magic. The same holds true for Splicers and Robotech. There is M.D.C. tech, and there is nothing in the environment that supports M.D.C. magic.

Consider also, if the Rifts cataclysm were to occur on Heroes Unlimited Earth. You would suddenly have a huge influx of magical energy. Psionics, magic and superpowers would immediately get elevated to M.D.C. levels. Technology would be stuck as S.D.C. Bad news for tech based characters.

[Qev]

The barriers between dimensions are actually a semi-sentient spell construct, that converts materials crossing through as appropriate for their destination dimension...?

How's that?

[Kelorin]

The barriers between dimensions are actually a semi-sentient spell construct, that converts materials crossing through as appropriate for their destination dimension...?

How's that?

Magic.

[Rallan]

They are different universes in one megaverse.
Can't that be enough?
A character goes to another universe and suddenly something works different... well that's the nature of things, he says.

Except that doesn't really fly, when the difference between one universe and another is just "Oh all the laws of physics are exactly the same, only some of the really powerful weapons and armor are 1/100th of their former strength for no reason except game balance". A Glitter Boy made in the late 21st century is an MDC structure, even though it was made in a time when Rifts Earth wasn't a crazy supernatural place. That same Glitter Boy getting zapped to 21st century HU or BTS Earth suddenly only has 800 SDC and does 3D6x10SDC with its main gun, even though it's made from the exact same stuff and uses the exact same physical principles.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd like a bit more than a "They're different universes in one megaverse" handwave to justify it. Nerfing MDC is an understandable goal from a game-balance perspective, but there really is no plausible in-game explanation for why non-supernatural MDC would be affected. It's every bit as jarring and out of place as the "non-living stuff from other dimensions disintegrates when you try and bring it into this setting" rule that Nightbane had. It's so painfully, transparently obviously only included to balance the game mechanics without a thought for whether it makes sense in the setting.

[lather]

For those keeping score, I do not nerf MDC making it 1/100th the power.

[lather]

Except that doesn't really fly, when the difference between one universe and another is just "Oh all the laws of physics are exactly the same, only some of the really powerful weapons and armor are 1/100th of their former strength for no reason except game balance".

A player would not know this.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd like a bit more than a "They're different universes in one megaverse" handwave to justify it.

It's not a handwave.

[Rallan]

Except that doesn't really fly, when the difference between one universe and another is just "Oh all the laws of physics are exactly the same, only some of the really powerful weapons and armor are 1/100th of their former strength for no reason except game balance".

A player would not know this.

Yes he would. Every player with the relevant books, and quite a few without them, know this. And just in case you meant to say "a player character wouldn't know this", the problem here isn't a case of what the PCs do and don't know. The problem is a glaring hole in the continuity and logic of the setting. The "MDC becomes SDC just for the heck of it in some worlds, even though everything else behaves exactly the same" rule sticks out like a sore thumb. It's not there to make the setting more interesting, or to be a plot hook, it's just a cheesily obvious nerf that makes no sense whatsoever from an in-game perspective. They don't even try to disguise it, they just leave it right out there in the open and double-dog dare the reader to complain about it.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd like a bit more than a "They're different universes in one megaverse" handwave to justify it.

It's not a handwave.

Um... perhaps you need a refresher course in exactly what a hand wave is. Because when the rest of us on this thread say that this rule is a "hand wave", we mean that it's a transparently obvious quick fix that's jarring because of how badly out of place it is, and obviously only exists because the writer couldn't come up with a plausible way to keep MDC items out of SDC settings.

[lather]

Except that doesn't really fly, when the difference between one universe and another is just "Oh all the laws of physics are exactly the same, only some of the really powerful weapons and armor are 1/100th of their former strength for no reason except game balance".

A player would not know this.

Since they have SDC weapons in Rifts (oftentimes exact copies of the weapons we use today), yeah the players WOULD know as soon as their normally durable MDC armor was suddenly hurt by a .38 Special pistol. Unless the players failed to pass even the "special" education classes, they'll know.

They would not know that "all laws of physics are exactly the same".
Pay attention.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd like a bit more than a "They're different universes in one megaverse" handwave to justify it.

It's not a handwave.

Then please explain how it isn't instead of just stating "no, it's not" each time the subject comes up. Simply saying no does not suddenly end a debate.

There is no debate to end. It's not a handwave - it's quite more complicated than that actually.
Read what I actually said, apply a bit of thought, and it becomes obvious this is not a handwave.

I provided an in-game reason.
Take it. Leave it. I really don't care - unless, of course, it is obvious you have not read what I have said.

[Rallan]

So your rationalization is "well the PCs wouldn't know that it's a nonsense rule, so that makes it fine"?

Dude, that's akin to saying that the storyline to Passions is sensible and grounded in reality because the Passions characters don't realise that they're following a dumb plot

[lather]

Um... perhaps you need a refresher course in exactly what a hand wave is. Because when the rest of us on this thread say that this rule is a "hand wave", we mean that it's a transparently obvious quick fix that's jarring because of how badly out of place it is, and obviously only exists because the writer couldn't come up with a plausible way to keep MDC items out of SDC settings.

1 MD = 100 SDC sounds even more than plausible to me.

[lather]

So your rationalization is "well the PCs wouldn't know that it's a nonsense rule, so that makes it fine"?

I do not think it is a nonsense rule.

Dude, that's akin to saying that the storyline to Passions is sensible and grounded in reality because the Passions characters don't realise that they're following a dumb plot

Not really.

[Rallan]

Are you a troll?

[Talavar]

Lather's not trolling, but I believe he makes use of a house rule that in non-MDC universes MDC items convert to SDC, but at the normal ratio. So a suit of armour with 80 MD becomes a suit with 8000 SDC.

[lather]

Are you a troll?

You not reading what I said makes me a troll?
What is a troll anyway?

[lather]

Lather's not trolling, but I believe he makes use of a house rule that in non-MDC universes MDC items convert to SDC, but at the normal ratio. So a suit of armour with 80 MD becomes a suit with 8000 SDC.

Yes. I use the core rules book to come up with that.

[Mouser13]

Well, I think we would all buy warmonger form RIFTS mercs and take over palladium world.

[lather]

What is the warmonger?

[Mouser13]

Sorry my spelling is bad. It is a suit of powerarmor that has 4000(or 6000 can't remember exact amount) S.D.C.. See it they still call it a death trap then he he he. It is suppose to be the worst power armor suit out their, but it is cheap so some kingdom like can buy like 6 times has many suits.

[lather]

Eight pages on weather or not a rule in a system that incorperates dimension hopping, gods, dragons, elves, faeries and super technology makes logical sense.

Eight Pages.

I'll be over here playing the game. Let me know how it turns out.

I said that around page 1, I think.
Of course, with my settings we just turned page 2.

[lather]

Sorry my spelling is bad. It is a suit of powerarmor that has 4000(or 6000 can't remember exact amount) S.D.C.. See it they still call it a death trap then he he he. It is suppose to be the worst power armor suit out their, but it is cheap so some kingdom like can buy like 6 times has many suits.

Wow.
It's from the first Mercenaries book?

[Mouser13]

Yes, I was just thinking we should take some ramjet rounds too since them still do S.D.C. damage too with just enough to make it M.D.C.(2D6X10 to soft targets belive).

[Killer Cyborg]

Except that doesn't really fly, when the difference between one universe and another is just "Oh all the laws of physics are exactly the same, only some of the really powerful weapons and armor are 1/100th of their former strength for no reason except game balance".

A player would not know this.

Actually, yes, a player WOULD know this.

A character might not, but since they don't exist, whether or not they know it is irrelevant.

[lather]

Except that doesn't really fly, when the difference between one universe and another is just "Oh all the laws of physics are exactly the same, only some of the really powerful weapons and armor are 1/100th of their former strength for no reason except game balance".

A player would not know this.

Actually, yes, a player WOULD know this.

Rallan was correct. I mean player character.

A character might not, but since they don't exist, whether or not they know it is irrelevant.

Then so is the reason.
Potentially.

[Killer Cyborg]

A character might not, but since they don't exist, whether or not they know it is irrelevant.

Then so is the reason.
Potentially.

Not really.
Because the problem is with the PLAYERS being brought out of their suspension of disbelief, not with the characters doing it.
Characters never say, "Hey, this rule is *********!!! It makes no freakin' sense!"
But players do.

And, frankly, they should.

[Astral Pantheon]

I agree with a 1 MDC to 100 SDC conversion.

But I have two related questions:

DB7: Page 75- Universal Energy Matrix Convertor(s)

1. The Convertor should at least allow the M.D. (tech) Weapon to work in Palladium Universe, correct??

2. Wouldn't the Convertor also allow a M.D. (tech) Weapon work in a SDC universe (inflict normal MD)??

[lather]

How much the player knows is playstyle.
Figuring out why a gun does not work could be an adventure.

[lather]

I've read what you wrote and you're nowhere near as intellectual as you're trying to appear.

:(

All you do is go "Nuh uh! Because I said so!". You're just trolling and you have yet to offer ANYTHING to this discussion beyond going "No. I said so and because I said so that makes it final". You offer nothing to this discussion besides wasted space.

I never said any of these things. I never said anything like these things.
If I did, then it should be easy to provide quotes.
I have offered more than wasted space.

You've provided no in-game reason and when someone calls you on it you don't even bother elaborating on it, you just try to dismiss it in a really weak fashion.

I have provided in-game reason. Upon what would you like me to elaborate?
How have I tried to dismiss anything?