Malakai wrote:OK, i'll try for the concise post then:
One thing I think is really setting the difference in viewpoints is gaming experience:
KC, you mentioned that most magic-users are levels 1-5? How do you figure?
Because the books state that most characters on Rifts Earth are around that level. (though I don't remember where it says this)
Not everyone starts off at level 1 in thier games.
How people houserule things doesn't affect the way the game is designed to be played.
and even if they do, it's not that hard to rise in levels. as an example:
Skill use: 10 - 25 (10 average)
Clever & Futile idea: 25 - 50 (4 average)
Judgement / power: 25 - 50 (4 average)
playing in character when it would be easier not to: 25 - 50 (yes, I had to emphasize this one
) (2 average)
Clever & Useful: 25 - 100 (2 average)
avoiding unneccessary violence: 50 - 100 (2 average)
kindness / mercy / compassion: 50 - 100 (4 average)
dedcutive reasoning: 50 - 100 (2 average)
heroic action: 50 - 100 (1 average)
quick thinking: 100 (2 average)
TOTAL: 1,050 - 2,050 average per game, NOT counting enemies defeated or heroic actions that save the lives of others
With a weekly game seesion: even at the lowest, you would be a 5th level LLW in 4 months, starting from 0 XP.
Depends on the GM, the players, and the sessions.
It took Kev and company 2 years of regular, weekly, 9-hour sessions for his characters to get to 7-9th levels.
In my groups, the average was probably about 500-750 xp per session per player.
Second, as to the availability of certain spells - it says there's only a 10% chance of say, Talisman or Create Magic Scroll, being available - well, then by that reasoning 10% of magic proprietors KNOW the spell. If it's not at the shop your at - check another one.
Sure, except that a lot of shops don't even sell spells at all.
"Most magic shops
and even colleges do NOT offer the full range of spells (level 1-4 are most common) and many shops will not teach spells at all! Just because a shop sells magic items and TW devices does not mean that its proprietors can teach magic."
That 10% chance is IF you find a place that teaches magic, and IF they teach high level magic.
As to the price - 500,000 to 1 million credits. wow - that does seem pretty expensive . . . wait, how much does a PA cost? around 1 million for a Flying Titan or Samson. What about that Nuclear-powered ATV that everyone seems to drive around in? 500,000. what about that Titan Combat Robot that the other character STARTS OUT WITH? 24 MILLION CREDITS. Heck, even you typical weapons and Armor are worth about 25,000 apiece. And were you not the one mentioning carrying around a lot of loot to sell off?
Now calculate up the cost of the starting spell list and gear for mage classes.
Then consider the fact that spells don't have massive repair costs, but big Robots and vehicles do.
And that what vehicle the characters start with is usually subject to GM approval.
As to the "More than one spell on a magic scroll" - I think that's a carry-over from Palladium Fantasy, but I'm not too sure - I'll take a look when I have my books in front of me.
I actually think I remember scrolls with multiple spells being in treasure troves in official adventures... but I might be thinking of AD&D.
Also a matter of setting is the "ambush" - you said you get ambushed pretty frequently - why? do you follow some pre-laid out path or trade route? Do you advertise you position all the time? Do you travel in open fields constantly?
And, more importantly, have you angered THAT MANY PEOPLE that an ambush is around every corner?
Nope.
But there are a lot of bandits and monsters around.
(And yeah, we have angered a hell of a lot of people. Well, mostly demons.)
Yes, in some environments, you have some fighting every day, but in the majority of cases, I would think that a fight or ambush every 3 days is in the upper limits of realistic - giving you plenty of time to regain spent PPE
Sometimes that would be the case.
Other times, not.
Heck, some people roll random encounters for every hour or so on the road!
Personally, I think that's a bit extreme.
But there are going to be plenty of times where you get into a fight more than once per three days.
What, you've never gone on a dungeoncrawl?
Or tried to clear a gang out of a city?
Or travelled through xiticix territory?
Or whatever?
As for being able to parry for others, it is official - you can, though it costs you an action (again, don't have my books in front of me right now). thus, if you have a "shield bearer" (as it were), they could parry for you while you cast.
Know where it says that?
And how is it useless against ranged attacks?
Because bullets and energy attacks cannot (as a rule) be parried.
Missiles can be parried by large robots using their arms to take the hit, but that's impractical for human-sized targets.
Arrows and such can be parried, but only at a large penalty.
as to having summoned creatures - there's plenty of spells for it, though Mystic Warrior would probably be the most likely.
Which means just one more spell before you can get rolling.
It's great, IF you have time to prep before hand, but that often doesn't happen.
1st attack- Mage casts Armor of Ithan
2nd attack- Mage starts casting Magic Warrior
3rd attack- Magic Warrior goes into effect
4th attack- Starts casting Sub-Particle Accelleration
5th Attack- finally inflicts 1d6x10+ MD.
You think people don't dodge? Why WOULDN'T they? OK, so they use up an action - they still don't get hit. And if thier goal is to escape, that's probably the best way to do so.
Actually, they give up an attack and often STILL get hit.
If their goal is to escape, that's one of the best ways to do it, the main time that dodging is really useful... but usually the enemies aren't going to start off combat by trying to escape.
As to magic spells that aren't in the RIFTS BoM - sorry to say, but it didn't have everything, and newer books come out all the time. Heck, they even forget to put OLD spells into the new books (this is what happened to Teleport Self - it was forgotten and placed in the Megaverse Builder, along with Expel Demons & Deevils). And again, same could be said of a lot of tech items - rare outside of one particular local.
I don't care about a spell that isn't in the BoM; I care about spells that aren't even Rifts spells.
Bringing those in is a house-rule, not the norm.
as to recovering PPE, is was refering to the cost of one casting, which lasts 1 round per level, so by level 5, your probabnly not casting it more than once per combat anyways
Gets into trouble when there's more than 1 combat per day.
Yes, Shifters linked with a God of Magic do NOT count as most mages - I'll grant yuo that - but they are one of the core classes - so there's bound to be a good percentage of them -
I don't know about that; shifters have a pretty bad rep, and I don't think they're anywhere near as common as line walkers, mystics, or even techno-wizards. They're kind of the outsider among the main-book mage.
But yes, I acknowledge that there are going to be some of them, and that they can get some good spells if they align themselves with a God of Magic.
What would you say to two mages that traded spells of equal or about equal levels - would that be a "Monty Haul" world? and before it comes out as far as cheating, this is between a PC and an NPC. remeber that since RUE, low level characters can get access to much higher-level spells, which in turn can be traded for other spells
By the book, it's out of character for both mages to do that.
The books go on and on about how secretive mages are, and how reluctant they are to reveal their secrets.
on to the range issue - then what are you talking about? if they can shoot me, then there's a straight line between my and the shooter. I've already proven that spell armor can take the hits - so how would this not apply?
Inti starts.
Your mage starts casting a spell or pulling out his magic trinket.
He gets shot.
He finishes casting the spell or using the trinket, he get shot again.
If the enemy is shooting from an inaccessible place out of range (flying 1,000' up, or far away over rough terrain, or whatever), then the mage has to take the time to cast another spell or use another trinket, and gets shot again.
He starts moving towards the enemy, and he gets shot again.
He keeps moving towards the enemy, and gets shot again.
Depending on what spell he casts, how far the enemy is, and how quickly the mage can move, his magic armor's going to be gone before he gets close.
He can cast Energy Field and buy a few rounds, but it's not a mobile spell so it won't get him closer to the enemy.
Because your shooter is mobile? - so he's firing wild - heck, he'll be lucky to hit me.
Not mobile as in "running and shooting at the same time," although there are enemies who
can move and shoot at the same time, especially flyers.
Mobile in the sense that they take some shots while the mage is gearing up, then back off when he starts running towards them.
Unless the mage is REALLY fast, any number of enemies are going to be able to shoot, then move off a bit, then shoot again, without the mage actually gaining ground.
and in a wooded area, how do you expect them to make full use if thier range?
Best place for an ambush is to shoot from a concealed position in a tree-line or behind rocks/etc, while the targets are out in the open, far enough away that you can get a number of shots off before they get close.
What's the other option? in regards to the 1/2 damage ending the fight quicker.
I don't remember what this was about.
aside from range, how do they not?
How do what not what?
the number I said was HALF A DOZEN - 6. so, what do you suggest? 3? that seems fare enough - so, which 3? Personally, I have Shield, Sword, and Targeting / Throwing - all aplicable for his spells (and a TW shield) - let me say that WP Shield mixed with a TW Shield of Deflection will serve you better than many other WPs. Sword can often be used for spells, such as Lightblade, as can taregting and throwing - love those Fire globes.
but after that, more tends to take away from your possibilities - hence my half a dozen number
Or go with WP Energy Rifle, WP Energy Pistol, and one extra for whatever.
as to it being pragmatic - let's see which are more pragmatic to take
Targeting / Throwing - use for several spells, as well as grenades, vibro-blades (for throwing), magic throwing irons (or similar items), or even to play a mean game of darts
Sword: useful for both spell, TW, Psychic, and Tech swords, AND useul for both Defense and Offense
Shield - OK, so this one is more limited than the others, but when you consider the spells that can go into a TW shield, it makes it worth it
I'd rather have something that makes up for the mages' primary weaknesses; range and firepower.
You say that most spell casters are levels 1-5, higher-level spells are super-rare and nearly impossible to get, that you are constantly fighting, every day, and often more than once a day.
Actually, I said it depends on the campaign, that sometimes you fight every day, sometimes not at all, and often it's inbetween.
I say that most spell casters are mid-level range (5 – 10), higher-level spells are more readily available and within reach than you do, that combat is not a daily occurrence, and that combat does not happen multiples times a day.
Yeah, but you're wrong about most spell casters and the availability of spells.
Or rather, you're right that these are your house rules/interpretations, but they go against the material in the books.
In regards to the game balance argument – you meant that as a statement? In RIFTS? Even going on that, look at the XP charts again – pretty close all around, whether you’re a magic-user or not (dragons and other’s of their power-level not included). So obviously we can see that they don’t take significantly longer to level up, just to learn the basics of their class – which include the ability to cast magic
Not sure what exactly you're asking here, but Rifts does indeed care about game balance, and that's what the XP tables are about.
Whether or not they're effective, or to what extent, is another story.
Try playing a magic-user that doesn’t use tech weapons or vehicles – see how hard, or not so hard, it is.
It depends on the campaign.
As for the articles, I can see your point, but don’t particularly agree with most of it. Yes, charaters are meant to be individuals first, and their class second (if that), but when you consider that they’ve spent the better part of their life (up to the point of beginning gameplay) training in their field, it tends to shape them and their outlook. Yes there are those that train and study intensely on one thing, while favoring something else, but I see THOSE PEOPLE ase the exception rather than the rule. I think it’s best to think back into history for examples of OCCs than today, and for the following reasons –
Today, people get a much more rounded education than they did back then, (or that they do in RIFTS), and the pressing need to do something is not as great this time, as it was then, simply because it is more common and acceptable to switch jobs and careers now than it was then. But back then, especially pre-renaissance, your job DID define who you were. Those were harsh time, and the ability to get a well-rounded educationa dn be able to explore many different careers simply DID NOT EXIST. This is a similar enviornment to RIFTS, where danger is much more commoon and educational institutions are not. People don’t have the luxury of sampling different careers – they often only have one or two jobs in their lifetime.
This is where the preferance for one’s strength comes from – a significant portion of their lives, including those formative teenage years, were probably spent training and studying for that one OCC. It would be like going to schools that specialized in banking and economics for middleschool and highschool – once you go through those, the majority of people graduating will probably go into banking or economics, and will look at the world through the eyes on economist. They will likely think in terms of opportunity costs, market shares, and other economic terms and models.
Not saying you can’t “break the mold” or create a character that differs from this – by all means make your character unique – but remember that stereotypes come from somewhere, and the mold is often used because it works
1. A person's job doesn't define who they are. There are, and have been, and always will be a heck of a lot of people who don't look at every problem in relation to their career.
2. We obviously disagree about what the mold is.
3. The stereotype for a mage in Rifts is somebody who casts spells
and uses tech, as the passages I quoted demonstrate.
And please try to look back at things before going “I don’t know what your talking about here” – I’ve done such when going over your posts
I've done things with your posts, a couple times.
But I'm not going to flip back and forth a dozen, or even half dozen, times just to make one post.
If you don't want to quote the parts that show what's being discussed, then phrase your responses in such a way that the nature of what is being discusssed is clear.
(Which you've done pretty well here)
In regards to the “All horses” comment – I’ll try and put it in a different format
You can only choose to eat beans
You can only choose one thing to eat
You eat beans
This is not the same argument as:
You can only choose to eat beans
You can eat whatever you can choose
You eat beans
With you so far.
If you try and be good at using BOTH tech and magic, you’ll never really master either of them. Mor eimportantly, if you try, and your in a group of people who all do likewise, then your individuality suffers – everyone’s using the same or nearly the same thing, “because it’s practical”
This is where you lose me.
It's not hard to master guns in Rifts; a mage with WP Energy Rifle is just as good a shot as a Headhunter with WP Energy Rifle.
And I don't think that "virtually all mages use magic over tech except when they have to" promotes individuality; I think it kills it.
Yes, if you limit the choice to “shooting the guy with a gun vs shooting the guy with Fire Bolt”, one would be hard-pressed to make an argument for using Fire Bolt that would be practical. So don’t be so limiting in veiwing the problem – expand the description so that other possibilities can come into play. If he’s in EBA, use Mental Blast instead – it will work MUCH better than your energy pistol.
Except that the argument that Hugh King made, and that you have been supporting, is that IF it comes down to Gun or Fire Bolt, mages should choose Fire Bolt.
Which is what I'm arguing against.
When spellcasting makes more sense, I'm all for spellcasting.
Because what I'm arguing for is pragmatism, NOT technology over magic.
Well, get some MDC leather armor, and a robe with a good-sized hood, and you’ll be fine. – No EBA needed
Hm.
I can't say for certain that that wouldn't work, but I'm skeptical.
(Also, as an aside, I've always thought the whole "MDC leather" bit was incredibly stupid. I can buy high-tech body armor allowing somebody to survive a railgun burst with their bones intact, if I stretch my imagination, but just wearing leather isn't going to do the trick, not unless the leather is stiffer than a few inches of steel. No need to respond to this point, because whether I like it or not, MDC leather is official, and does work.)
Well, the faster you travel, the less likely you are to notice an ambush, which means that this is in the MOUNTS favor.
Unless you drive slow in your vehicle.
Once again, it comes down to what you're trying to achieve.
Sometimes tech is the better way to go, sometimes not.
Train the horse and you won’t have to worry about it spooking and throwing you off.
Debatable if that's possible.
Repel animals will take care of the “seen as food issue”,
For animals, but not for monsters and demons.
As to the sand cloud – they do look different – anyone skilled at tracking would notice such
I'd put it more under the Intelligence skill or Perception or something.
But any way you slice it, it's something that a lot of people/creatures aren't going to get (or be good at).
As for the random location, that the Shifter’s class ability – the spell has no such stipulation. Teleport Self is in Megaverse Builder, and is mentioned in RUE under the shifter spell list
I still don't see it in the RUE spell list.
Maybe not “vehicle” enhancements, but certainly any enhancement that can be put into armor – take a look at RIFTER #2
Don't have it.
And finally (for this post)
In regards to the wear and tear – I guess we have “irreconcileable difference”, since you seem unwilling to consider TW construction and theory, instead saying something to the effect of “the don’t implicitly diagram the device, so we have NO WAY of knowing how it works or how it’s complexity compares to a [tech item]”. This is an RPG – use your imagination and some critical thinking skills and do a thought experiment – it’s not really that hard to grasp the basics of it.
Except you don't mean "use
my (Killer Cyborg's) imagination," you mean "use
your (Malakai's) imagination."
Because using MY imagination, TW and high-tech items are equally likely to break down.
