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Jefffar wrote:So Wolfe, what are the forces that assaulted Invid occupied Earth at the end of New Generation called in the episodes they appeared?

Scott calls them "Army Fly-boys" in Dark Finalie.

So does that make them army or air force?

Jefffar wrote:So does that make them army or air force?

Considering the Old Coots are the combat crew on a Garfish (in Ghost Town) and clearly state they were soldiers in the Army, I'd say there is no reason to believe the Army doesn't maintain its own Veritech Fighter units for Close Air Support etc. They would also need Garfish, Horizon, Izum and Ikazuchi's to support ground operations to land soldiers on the target. Kind of like how the US Army had more ships than the US Navy in WWII.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:Also, from a practical standpoint calling UEEF Ground Forces "Marines" makes most sense as the UEEF is technically a naval force.

Umm, excuse me, the UEEF is a multi-service combat command, NOT a service branch. The fact there are space naval units doesn't automatically make it a 'Space Navy'. Besides, the US Army is perfectly capable of performing amphibious operations. Does that make them Marines? Are you saying the Army's 75th Ranger Regiment (descended from the Rangers of WWII), 1st, 3rd and 29th Infantry Division's are all 'Marines' now that they served once on Navy ships? How about the 9th Infantry Division in Vietnam that served on Navy boats in the Mekong Delta, are they Marines?

Seeing as you:

A) Over-generalized my point and over-exaggerated my claim by pointing out exceptions to the rule (the Army has an Air Corps still, that doesn't mean that it isn't logical to think of non-carrier based aircraft forces as an Air Force) .

B) Are getting way too belligerent over something that should envoke no belligerence whatsoever.

and C) Continually keep missing (or perhaps ignoring, intentionally or otherwise) my points...

...I think I'll bow out of this "discussion" now.

The Sun will rise tomorrow, whether the ground forces in an American made Japanese Anime-pastiche are called Marines or not.

~ Josh

I thought that the Sentinels was out of canon and was part of the Extended community. as they have already changed some of the Sentinel races and thier direction in the comics and the show it is in my opinion safe to say that Col Edwards may have been incharge of the ground forces but they have had thier name changed to Marines as it is more befitting of the Naval history of the UNSPACY.
Also from a military point of view people get testy if called the wrong title especially if it is not thier trade or organisation. Before I became Cpl I was a Rifleman in the Infantry, and cwould get testy if someone called me Trooper (which denotes an amoured private in Canada).

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

Jefffar wrote:So does that make them army or air force?

Considering the Old Coots are the combat crew on a Garfish (in Ghost Town) and clearly state they were soldiers in the Army, I'd say there is no reason to believe the Army doesn't maintain its own Veritech Fighter units for Close Air Support etc. They would also need Garfish, Horizon, Izum and Ikazuchi's to support ground operations to land soldiers on the target. Kind of like how the US Army had more ships than the US Navy in WWII.

However, the old coots are not a part of the final assault wave - those are the folks we are interested in.

So are all the veritechs we see army? Are some of them air force? Navy? Marines?

plus, when scott makes those comments most of the troops in combat were the ones already on the ground when he arrived, which were said to include some resistance forces.

so it's likely a decent portion of the troops on the ground were either ASC troops absorbed by the UEEF's ground arm, or former ASC resistance fighters. both of which would probably be referred to as Army.

odds are the marine troops were held back with the fleet for after reflex point was taken out by naval aviation and the ground forces, for use to drop in and secure various global sites.

Zerebus wrote:

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Umm, excuse me, the UEEF is a multi-service combat command

Excellent! So there's room for both an Army AND a Marine Corps, right?

And a USO

And a dedicated Batman corps for the officers!

And a Proper Landry that knows to NOT put starch in the shorts!

And a Dedicated Black market that makes Maxwell Q Klinger look like an amature.

And some of the finest restraunts in the universe.

glitterboy2098 wrote: odds are the marine troops were held back with the fleet for after reflex point was taken out by naval aviation and the ground forces, for use to drop in and secure various global sites.

but no Marine Troops are mentioned in the Show.

Zerebus wrote:

Jefffar wrote:However, the old coots are not a part of the final assault wave - those are the folks we are interested in.

Wait, I thought Dark Finale was one of the episodes thrown out with the inclusion of Shadow Chronicles.

no, it has minor parts altred.
but is in no way removed from Canon. as per HG's Continiuty rules i linked Eariler.

Jefffar wrote:So are all the veritechs we see army? Are some of them air force? Navy? Marines?

Scott seems to differentiate between he and Lancer and 'these Army flyboys'. I'd say that makes Lancer (whose original rank is never given) and Scott 'Navy' flyers (for lack of a better term at the moment).

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

Jefffar wrote:So does that make them army or air force?

Considering the Old Coots are the combat crew on a Garfish (in Ghost Town) and clearly state they were soldiers in the Army, I'd say there is no reason to believe the Army doesn't maintain its own Veritech Fighter units for Close Air Support etc. They would also need Garfish, Horizon, Izum and Ikazuchi's to support ground operations to land soldiers on the target. Kind of like how the US Army had more ships than the US Navy in WWII.

Which Ironicaly puts the whatever it was named back then in the same boat as the Japanise in WWII, in that the Army had its own fleet and fleet subs. Granted the US Army had its own fleet too.

and a slight clarification, most of thoes ships were still manned and crewed by their original USN, USNR, or Merchant Marine personell

Granted some of the Guncrews on the MM Liberty and Victory ships were drawn from the USArmy, (mostly the ships that were assigned to the USArmy)

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

Jefffar wrote:So are all the veritechs we see army? Are some of them air force? Navy? Marines?

Scott seems to differentiate between he and Lancer and 'these Army flyboys'. I'd say that makes Lancer (whose original rank is never given) and Scott 'Navy' flyers (for lack of a better term at the moment).

Or possibly marines - since Navy Fliers are not typically asigned to "Divisions" in my understanding.

Phalanx wrote:So, neither the TV show nor the SC movie ever actually say what the UEEF ground forces are called, but the RPG does with Harmony Gold's blessing. Good enough for me.

No, the Tv series DOES say and it says the Army.

Zerebus wrote: Well, if you consider the character dynamics between Marlene and Scott Bernard to be minor...

...actually, I think they were rather critical. Battle turning, even. IIRC, in the new series Scott never got shot down by Corg because he still has his Alpha in the movie. Never getting shot down by Corg means Corg never had the subsequent opening to mow down all those other Alphas, assuming Corg still exists.

Scotts interaction with Corg wasnt critical to the movies plot, and would have incressed its Airtime. it being Ommited in the movie cant alter the Fact it happens in Robotech.
Otherwise we can remove Lancer, Lunk, Annie, Rook, Rand, Sera, Regent, Dana, Max, Mirya, Roy fokker form the continuity too, since they werent in Shadow Chronicles.
but this is Highly off topic, form the Marines debate.

Zerebus wrote:Wait, why can't there be Army elements already on the ground (resistance forces that we see moving in on Reflex Point during the series) and the Marines being almost entirely up in space serving with the fleet?

the Show never mentions Marines being held in Reserve with the Fleet.

Zerebus wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Zerebus wrote:Wait, why can't there be Army elements already on the ground (resistance forces that we see moving in on Reflex Point during the series) and the Marines being almost entirely up in space serving with the fleet?

the Show never mentions Marines being held in Reserve with the Fleet.

Like I said earlier, omission is not contradiction.

they never Mention Marines in the Show.
so their is no proof they Exist.
Ommision isnt Proof Of Existance either, nor proof of non-existance, I'm just saying the Show never says they have Marines in reserve.

Phalanx wrote:It seems like the show and the movie don't say a lot of things. I don't see how their silence on the matter invalidates the decisions HG made for the RPG.

I'm not saying it Invalidates the RPg. the RPg is real. I'm saying the show & movie never says anything about Marines.

Zerebus wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote: I'm just saying the Show never says they have Marines in reserve.

Ok, I can respect that logic.

Thank you

If i had an Opinion on it, and i dont, it would be "its your game, do what you want"

absence of proof does not mean proof of absence.

glitterboy2098 wrote:absence of proof does not mean proof of absence.

I agree.

ok a couple of points

Historicaly, "Naval infantry" are usualy a minority Compared to the same nations Army. Also historicaly a large percentage of thoes Navy infantry men were people who were bascialy unsuited for any other duty on a ship about to engage in combat. Some navies did develope a dedicated "Naval infantry" but all too often it was a dumping ground, especialy durring the transistion of navies from Sail to Steam when salors who could not make the transition from working on a sailing ship to working on a Steam powered ship found themselves otherwise out of a job.

To me the decision to go with a "specialised Naval "infantry" or "Marine" who trains to deal with spaceship to spaceship operations or planetary landing operations is logical. but eh.

ArmySyko wrote:Hence yet another good reason to do what you want and throw "canon" out the window because there's no prize for running the most-canonly game.

I'll add them.

Ok, just to be clear about something. I am not trying to run 'the most canon game ever etc'. I am worried about this because it directly affects the middle chapter of Robotech, believe it or not. It directly affects its future as a franchiseable series. With a stroke of a pen, it can be relegated to the 'dust bin' and I'm not happy about that in the least. It means never again seeing a Hovertank or an Ajax except as something from 'a failed series that doesn't really mesh with Robotech' as some have said directly to me in the past.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Zerebus wrote:

Otherwise we can remove Lancer, Lunk, Annie, Rook, Rand, Sera, Regent, Dana, Max, Mirya, Roy fokker form the continuity too, since they werent in Shadow Chronicles.
but this is Highly off topic, form the Marines debate.

ok Roy was dead, and from what I understand Max and Mirya and maybe Dana were on the "Missing" SDF 3 with Rick or elsewhere, and you forgot Minmee.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

ArmySyko wrote:Hence yet another good reason to do what you want and throw "canon" out the window because there's no prize for running the most-canonly game.

I'll add them.

Ok, just to be clear about something. I am not trying to run 'the most canon game ever etc'. I am worried about this because it directly affects the middle chapter of Robotech, believe it or not. It directly affects its future as a franchiseable series. With a stroke of a pen, it can be relegated to the 'dust bin' and I'm not happy about that in the least. It means never again seeing a Hovertank or an Ajax except as something from 'a failed series that doesn't really mesh with Robotech' as some have said directly to me in the past.

Be more worried that they would retcon the entire first arc into something new just to end any chance of bleedover from over the seemingly never endeing legal mess over Macross.

Drakenred®™© wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Zerebus wrote:

Otherwise we can remove Lancer, Lunk, Annie, Rook, Rand, Sera, Regent, Dana, Max, Mirya, Roy fokker form the continuity too, since they werent in Shadow Chronicles.
but this is Highly off topic, form the Marines debate.

ok Roy was dead, and from what I understand Max and Mirya and maybe Dana were on the "Missing" SDF 3 with Rick or elsewhere, and you forgot Minmee.

so is Corg.
and everyone should forget Minmie

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Drakenred®™© wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Zerebus wrote:

Otherwise we can remove Lancer, Lunk, Annie, Rook, Rand, Sera, Regent, Dana, Max, Mirya, Roy fokker form the continuity too, since they werent in Shadow Chronicles.
but this is Highly off topic, form the Marines debate.

ok Roy was dead, and from what I understand Max and Mirya and maybe Dana were on the "Missing" SDF 3 with Rick or elsewhere, and you forgot Minmee.

so is Corg.
and everyone should forget Minmie

I think they should have just left her songs in the original Japanise. it would have been less painfull for everyone.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:absence of proof does not mean proof of absence.

I agree.

i was pointing out that just because marines were not mentioned in the show doesn't mean they can't exist. nor does the lack of mention of such troops getting held back means such a thing isn't possible.

Ok, just to be clear about something. I am not trying to run 'the most canon game ever etc'. I am worried about this because it directly affects the middle chapter of Robotech, believe it or not. It directly affects its future as a franchiseable series. With a stroke of a pen, it can be relegated to the 'dust bin' and I'm not happy about that in the least. It means never again seeing a Hovertank or an Ajax except as something from 'a failed series that doesn't really mesh with Robotech' as some have said directly to me in the past.

except that giving the UEEF a marine branch really doesn't mean squat when it comes to defining the status of the SC era forces. the UEEF can still have an army branch, a navy branch, and a marine branch without invalidating the earth portion of the UEG military during the master's invasion.

in fact, the odds are the ASC will have it's own variation on the army, marine, navy, airforce paradigm, which we do see in the show. very likely many of the groups like the TASC, ATAC, and so on will end up being sub-groups of such army/navy/airforce/marine branches. not unlike how the army has both cavalry divisions and infantry divisions. or the air force has fighter command and Strategic air command.

heck, many of the groups in SC are really more special forces detachments than seperate armies. desert squad, jungle squad, mountain squad, arctic squad, ATAC, and CDU probably are all part of the UEG 'army' branch, the seasquad and TC part of the marine branch, the TASC and CU part of the space navy branch, the CDC either part of the airforce branch or rolled into the Army branch...

heck, the only one left out in that set up is the GMP, which would be a seperate military branch with jurisdiction involving all of the other branches...

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:absence of proof does not mean proof of absence.

I agree.

i was pointing out that just because marines were not mentioned in the show doesn't mean they can't exist. nor does the lack of mention of such troops getting held back means such a thing isn't possible.

and I agree with you. i'm just saying the Show/Movie dosn't say anythign like that.

Drakenred®™© wrote:Be more worried that they would retcon the entire first arc into something new just to end any chance of bleedover from over the seemingly never endeing legal mess over Macross.

::sighs::

And its comments like these I've had to endure for years on end. I'm not kidding when I say I'm a Southern Cross fan. Macross has gone its merry way from Robotech and never the twain shall meet. There is zero chance of The Macross Saga being retconned since 'its the most popular franchise' comprising Robotech. On the other hand, Southern Cross has been the dumping ground for over 20 years now and all but retconned in many cases.

glitterboy2098 wrote:in fact, the odds are the ASC will have it's own variation on the army, marine, navy, airforce paradigm, which we do see in the show....

But see, right there you don't understand. If the ASC is removed from the UEEF, it means that it will NEVER be shown during The Sentinels. No Hoveranks, no Logans, no APCs, no C3I Group Carriers, no Flashclapper Hovercycles. All we will be told is that 'this show is about the REF, not the ASC' and that will be the end of it. Might as well call it MospeadaTech at that point.

Nelzie wrote: due to being a mashup of three different series that had nothing in common.

This has no bearing on Robotech. Robotech is one Series. last i checked. and any internal continuity problems are only there because of the Addition of non-Primary Materials.
I watch robotech episodes 1-85, and see no huge "glaring holes all over the place".
The Show is correct, within its own continuity.

Nelzie wrote:Also, please show how this will "destroy" the franchise. I want market research, I want solid verifiable numbers.

If you are unable to produce the market research with solid numbers to back up what you are saying, then all you have is anecdote and opinion.

The point of the game is to have fun. Is working up massive ulcers over this "fun"?

Nelzie - your not helping the situation. Even I can see what RSCF is trying to say - and I don't really care about the Southern Cross section of the franchise.

Now mind you, I have been looking at the three era's rather hard recently, trying to rectify certain aspects of the three different series, just so I can say when did the Alpha make it to Earth! And all I can say is - it is a pain in the rear, unless you don't care.

Once you start caring about how things are put in place, you start to understand why some folks are going nuts about how certain things are put in place. We can go for a different topic and you would have more people arguing over the pro's and con's. This may be a non-point to you, but MDC of a Cyclone could be a big sticking point (as it has for others...)

The Equipment of the Southern Cross not only the military is a vital part of the story within the Invid Invasion. All that gear, mecha, and personell have to go some where on the destroyed Earth, dominated by the Invid. On top of that, it should be the same gear that the REF left Earth with - if it is not, why?

yes, Add what ever you want in your own game... I'm merging Robotech with Bravestarr and Popples.

but Plenty of Robotech Fans (not the diffrence between RPG fans a HC Robotech fans) are Continuity mongers... and have been working on it for years.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:in fact, the odds are the ASC will have it's own variation on the army, marine, navy, airforce paradigm, which we do see in the show....

But see, right there you don't understand. If the ASC is removed from the UEEF, it means that it will NEVER be shown during The Sentinels. No Hoveranks, no Logans, no APCs, no C3I Group Carriers, no Flashclapper Hovercycles. All we will be told is that 'this show is about the REF, not the ASC' and that will be the end of it. Might as well call it MospeadaTech at that point.

and i still can't see your logic there.

the ASC would likely be dubbed officially something like UEDF (United Earth Defense Force), and have it's own structure, only semi-related to the UEEF, in that both fall under the UEAF (United Earth Armed Forces) (or some term like that, i have no clue what HG would name them officially)

after all, the UEEF is the United earth Expeditionary force. a term used to refer to any military force dispatched to fight in a foreign territory. by nature these tend to be mostly self-contained forces in terms of organization, containing members of every branch and department required to do the job. the existance of such a group does not supersede of the forces left behind in the homeland. (though they often use different gear optimised to the war they'll be fighting)

they'd still have all the same gear and troops and storylines, and troops from one could be transferred to the other. likewise mecha and weapons (at least those around at any given point in the timeline) would be shared between both, though the UEEF would be using predominately alpha's, condors, ect, while the EUDF sticking to the Spartas, logan, ect. each according to their tactical and logistical needs.


think about it like the Us military in WW2. one armed forces, but two theatres of conflict. troops from europe were sometimes transferred to the pacific, and vice versa, both theatres had the same basic weaponry, but both used different amounts of the different units. the pacific saw more use of B-29's and P-38's, while the B-17's and P-51's were more prevalent in europe. the european troops tended to have more Thompson's, but the pacific troops used more flame throwers.

each according to the needs of the theatre.

Nelzie wrote:

Drakenred®™© wrote:Be more worried that they would retcon the entire first arc into something new just to end any chance of bleedover from over the seemingly never endeing legal mess over Macross.

That might be cool.

Do you think that we'd have Power Armor for RDF shoulders that could take on whatever replaces Battlepods then? (Just being snarky...)

The impresion I Got is that they would retain the Existing Voice acting and soundtrack Virtualy intact and simply "refilm" the episodes.

glitterboy2098 wrote:the ASC would likely be dubbed officially something like UEDF (United Earth Defense Force), and have it's own structure, only semi-related to the UEEF, in that both fall under the UEAF (United Earth Armed Forces) (or some term like that, i have no clue what HG would name them officially)

That is totally and completely counterintuitive. The United Earth Forces is the name of the overall umbrella military forces of the United Earth Government. Making the UEF and the UEEF 'separate but equal' needlessly multiplies existing bureaucracies. It also has a DIRECT affect on The Masters War in that the UEEF can throw the UEF under the bus for going to war against the Masters (something that ridiculous Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles had as a plotline, the UEEF council censuring Supreme Commander Leonard for his stance, when he was taking DIRECT ORDERS from the Prime Minister of the United Earth Government).

though the UEEF would be using predominately alpha's, condors, ect, while the EUDF sticking to the Spartas, logan, ect. each according to their tactical and logistical needs.

And with a stroke of a pen you wipe out any chance of Southern Cross ever getting anything remotely resembling new air time if The Sentinels becomes a reality in the future. You're still not getting why I am mad about this.

Nelzie wrote:It's a cool fun story.

The game is written to be cool and fun. Bogging it down in all these little tiny details when it's just a game that anyone can essentially make whatever they want happen whenever they want it to happen at their own table with their own group... is pointless.

I can quote practically every single line of the entire Star Wars trilogy, correct people on some of the most obscure of canon. When it comes to sitting down to play the game, none of that canon matters, none of how the system I am using or what was written, correct or incorrect in the source books matters.

All that matters is whether or not the group and I will end up getting fun out of the experience.

If that means we make "canon" into our ***** and bend it to our will, then that is what we do, even if that totally and completely contradicts the heck out of the established game material and the official source material.

Thus, I have serious trouble seeing what the problem is with what Harmony Gold (the people who make the official Canon of the series) and Palladium Books does with Robotech. If I don't like something they have done, then I will change it to fit what I want with very little work or worry over the matter. No harm, no foul.

Basically what you are saying and I don't mean to sound like I am baiting you on this - that is not my intention: You don't mind the continuity errors of the series, because when you hit the table running - it is all thrown out the window for fun.

I get this - the best laid plans are this way.

I only want the game to be internally consistent. IE if a cyclone is supposed to be 1/4 as powerful as an alpha, the game reflects that. I also want the game to be complete and have enough material to get really going.

I myself am a hardcore Star Wars fan - thankfully Novastar is also. But I understand that in his games his rules. But the key feature is, if he doesn't have to change things from the rules all the better. If he does, that means he has to take time out of the game to explain them. Which he has - but that is less time gaming.

We all know that every game has house rules, and I am sure Kevin has done his fair share of it also. You go with the flow, and make the game fun. But if it can be done without the rules (or make it minimal or small), all the better.

can somoene link me some info on HG losing their rights to Macross?

Colonel Wolfe wrote:can somoene link me some info on HG losing their rights to Macross?

theirs nothing about them loosing the rights, its more a case of (A)Ok how do we get ourselves out of the mess before it happens and (B) how can we best deal with things that we get blamed for like the "Fact" that the Macros era Mecha and the Alfa-Beta-cyclone do not apear in the second arc and nothing remotly resembeling a VHT, Logan, or any of the "Southern Cross" capital ships turn up in the third Arc?

That and doing all new animation gets the Macross purists who blame HG for the "Fact" that their holding Macross rights is keeping the rest of Macross out of the US off HG back.

Ironicaly all that would do is po the "Robotec Purrist" who will just rant and rave that their pulling a "Lucas" on them.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:the ASC would likely be dubbed officially something like UEDF (United Earth Defense Force), and have it's own structure, only semi-related to the UEEF, in that both fall under the UEAF (United Earth Armed Forces) (or some term like that, i have no clue what HG would name them officially)

That is totally and completely counterintuitive. The United Earth Forces is the name of the overall umbrella military forces of the United Earth Government. Making the UEF and the UEEF 'separate but equal' needlessly multiplies existing bureaucracies. It also has a DIRECT affect on The Masters War in that the UEEF can throw the UEF under the bus for going to war against the Masters (something that ridiculous Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles had as a plotline, the UEEF council censuring Supreme Commander Leonard for his stance, when he was taking DIRECT ORDERS from the Prime Minister of the United Earth Government).

except that since the UEEF answers to the UEG military high command, they aren't independant. both groups answer to the same people, but operate in different areas.

because the UEEF operates farther from central command, a degree of operational flexibilty would need to be allowed, but they wouldn't be able to operate freely.

as for counter intuitive, i direct you to a real example. the American Expeditionary force had a seperate command structure from the troops remaining back at home. it answered to the same american high command, but were seperate from the command organization of those still in america, due to the fact generals in america would be unable to command troops effectively when they were not present in the theatre of operations.

since the UEEF would be operating light years away from the rest of command, a similar set up would be required. the UEEF has it's own command structure, answering to the high command, but not directly part of the rest of the UEG military.

though the UEEF would be using predominately alpha's, condors, ect, while the EUDF sticking to the Spartas, logan, ect. each according to their tactical and logistical needs.

And with a stroke of a pen you wipe out any chance of Southern Cross ever getting anything remotely resembling new air time if The Sentinels becomes a reality in the future. You're still not getting why I am mad about this.

given that the sentinals is an Expeditionary force story, this is a problem?

and given that the ASC seems to have some jurisdiction offworld (perhaps on colony worlds?), it would not be impossible to have them in any future works. they'd just have a different role than the UEEF.

one is offense, the other defense.

plus, the UEEF will have need of hover tanks, logans, hover cycles, and much of the rest as well. but in suppliment to any veritechs or destroids they field. just like the ASC will likely use alpha's and condor's, in supliment to the logans, battloids, and so on.

This is the liveliest, longest, civil debate I've seen in the forum for a while.



Seriously though, I've long been the proponent of the embryonic REF is made up of TSC & UEF (Space) Marine Corp elements. This ofcourse covers the period from 2020 - 2031 only.

There's enough leeway to support the existence of a Marine branch in UEF for its 3 distinctive incarnation (2009-2044), notably:

1. United Nations Defence Forces (2009 - 2014) :
-UN Army
-UN Airforce
-UN Navy
-UN Spacy (Space Navy)
-UN Marine Corp

2. United Earth Forces (2020 - 2031) :
-Southern Cross Army (TC, ATAC, JS, DS, MoS, HCoS, CWoS, CDU/CDFC, REP, GMP)*
-Tactical Airforce (TAF)*
-Southern Cross Navy (Sea Squad)*
-Tactical Space Corp** (including TASC & CU)
-UE (space) Marine Corp**

*The SCA & UEF elements on Earth also being referred as United Earth Defence Forces several times in the animation. I'm more into this supposition where UEDF which include terrestrial units (SCA/TAF/SCN) plus the Home Fleet (TSC) effectively defends Earth & Sol System, meanwhile EF Task Force (TSC/UEMC/SCA) are primarily stick with Pioneer Eexpedition & colonization outside Sol-System

**The early Expeditionary Force (EF) at this time are partly TSC, a few SCA & largely United Earth Marine Corp)

Addendum: By 2031, with Earth invaded by Invid, the Expeditionary Force would by this time effectively have to revamped itself from a Taskforce to a whole new military defence force replacing the UEF that practically extinguished alongside UEG back on Earth. The civillian United Earth Government is being replaced by Plenipoteniary Council (previously administered outer Sol-System colonies - McKinney's conception) & later on evolved into more militaristic Expeditionary Council in 2040s (as refered from PttSC).

2. United Earth Expeditionary Forces (2031 - 2044) :
-EF Army*
-EF Airforce (TAF)
-EF Spacy
-EF Marine Corp

*Elements of SCA like surviving units tha escaped to deep space during Invid Invasion & include part of SCA from earlier EF Taskforce would simply reorganised & marshalling Colonial Militia (from Terran colonies) to establish a new EF Army replacing SCA.

** Amongst other things, I omit EF Navy for obvious reasons, the deep-space EF would not need a terrestrial Navy. Apart from Tyrol, I doubt Mars (a major Terran colony) can support a sea-based navy. That would even explained Scott's anathema to large expanse of seawater, but his preference with small river stream would be akin to a swimming pool that should be available in any Terran colony.

Making the UEF and the UEEF 'separate but equal' needlessly multiplies existing bureaucracies.

It can be done, strictly by making UEEF as an outgrowth of EF Taskforce post Invid invasion of Eath in 2031AD.

It is more or less like SCA is an outgrowth of Southern Cross Taskforce (UEF Special Task Force) that combated Malcontents during the 2010s.

EF Taskforce pre 2031 should not be equalled to UEF, merely an existing specific Theater Taskforce Command. But, by the time of Invid Invasion, geopolitical & socio-economic structure would drastically change as Eath, the seat of UEG & bastion of UEF becomes Invid's nest. Thus this necessitated the need for EF Taskforce, the only surviving Terran miliraty body at that time, to revamp itself in order to inherit UEF mantle. Thus UEEF is borne.

The need for United Earth Marine Corp within EF Taskforce & later UEEF perhaps a retcon in order to reconcile the vast difference between mecha design fielded by EF Taskforce & UEF back on Earth.

The CVR-3 armors would best served specific only to UEMC pre 2031, while stylized UEF body armors of 2020s served the United Earth Defence Force (SCA/SCN/TAF) & Home Fleet (TSC) ... plus SCA/TSC contingent of the EF Taskforce. The CVR-3 armors only become standardised armors for the UEEF (Army, Spacy, Airforce, Marine Corp) after Earth was invaded by Invid in 2031.

One more thing, EF Taskforce in 2020s would fielded the same class of starships (Tristar, Battle, Banshee, Tokugawa - specific to TSC) as Home Fleet, & mecha too like VF-8 Logans later supplemented with Super Logans - specific to TASC elements of EF Taskforce & VHT-2 Sparta Hovertank plus Battloids units for SCA elements in EF Taskforce. But, the availability of early VFA-6 Alpha variants (perhaps in limited production) should be strictly for United Earth Marine Corp at this juncture (2020 -2031).

VFA-6 Alphas only become widely used & mass-produced for each newly created branches of UEEF post 2031 because of the Invid Invasion of Earth that destroyed AGACS / Logan mecha manufacturing production centers based there.

It is interestinmg to note that Lancer's unit - 10th Mars Division that formed the 1st Earth Reclaimation Mission back in 2038 only consisted of a few Alpha squadrons (RT: Invasion console game), mostly made up by Conbat Fighters & Condor Battloids (from RT:Invasion comic) ... which suggest that 10th Mars Division could be entirely UEEF's Spacy & Army units (paratrooper elements - in regards to Condor's usage).

Scott's 21st Mars Division in 2042 would be best altogether both UEEF's Spacy & Marine Corp combined. This explained the heavy VFA-6 Alpha contigents within this 2nd Earth Reclaimation Mission.

The Final Earth Reclaimation Mission in 2044 would involved EF Army & EF Marine Corp as the 1st Attack Group (surface troops) that surrounded Reflex Point & utilised normal VFA-6 Alphas, while the 2nd & 3rd Attack Group consisted mainly of EF Spacy with heavy usage of VFA-6X Shadow Alphas & VQ-6X Shadowdrones within largely Shadow-tech equipped armada.

Nelzie wrote: Where is the CVR-3 Armor in the Southern Cross? Where are the Hover Cyclones in New Generation or why aren't they using Cyclones instead of Hover Cycles in The Southern Cross?

That's the kind of inconsistencies I am talking about. Watching the show, I just ignore that stuff, knowing how it was put together. For the game? I want to see a Hover Cyclone.

The Toy Store Scott Crashes Through in "Denver" has Models of the Alpha and its pre-beta Booster, and a poster with a Cyclone on it. "denver" was abandoned days before the invid invasion. meaning the Technology of the EF was on earth at one point, and was the basis for some "GI JoE" type Toyline.

Nelzie wrote: I'm just sayin' that if we want to go by the "canon" statement of Robotech.com, the lack of existence and even lack of mention of the Southern Cross equipment implies that it was/is a non-factor as in either so few numbers as to not count or simply didn't exist.

Personally though, I am cool with the idea of more than a handful of VHT, Logans and maybe even Ajacs 'copters still being around somewhere and I might even include those in an Earth based campaign, if I choose to run such a campaign.

the "Canon" statment from Robotech.com says nothign of lack of sight/mention means lack of proof. it says Secondary sources Must agree with Primary sources.
Both the masters Era and Invid era are Primary sources, and both have equal relivance to all canon.
the Denver Episode proves Cyclone were on Earth pre-Invid.
the Dialog in Lost city proves thier is wreckage from battlepods, Bioroids and Zent Cruisers.

Nelzie wrote:Nobody, save RSCF (that I know of), is even suggesting that The Southern Cross will be ignored.

You still are not getting it. I am talking about FUTURE Robotech installments such as a revamped version of The Sentinels. The old version most definitely included the Army of the Southern Cross (both as a mentioned organization in the scripts and alot of the mecha/vehicles); even the novels has the ASC as part of the REF.

You wanna know why I'm honked off, look up this term: 'He who controls the past, controls the future' and the favourite tactic of the Romans: Poisoning the Well. By getting everyone to believe that "Hey, the ASC was on Earth, the EF was in space" Tommy won't get any complaints from fans when a new version of The Sentinels comes out minus any mention or showing of Southern Cross equipment.

Wow, i have to admire you guys. I NEVER thought that hard about the military branches in Robotech.

This is what it boils down for me, and maybe Im just simple.

After the Global Civil War, there is only the Robotech Defense Force (RDF)
After the Macross Saga, the RDF becomes the REF and the Armies of the Southern Cross is formed. That includes Sea Squad, GMP, ATAC, all of them and they stay on Earth and defend it while the REF leave to go find the Masters.
Invid come and destroy Earth. The Armies of the Southern Cross either leave to find and join the REF or stay behind as freedom fighters.
The REF then comes back and take back the Earth. The Reclamaiton Forces are just part of the REF.

I have no idea if this is right (doesnt seem to be from what Im reading) but this is what I am going with because its easy.

Oh and add me to the list of people who love the Southern Cross. Nova Satori is my favourite character from the whole Robotech series.

I wonder what happened to her.

MikeM

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

Nelzie wrote:Nobody, save RSCF (that I know of), is even suggesting that The Southern Cross will be ignored.

You still are not getting it. I am talking about FUTURE Robotech installments such as a revamped version of The Sentinels. The old version most definitely included the Army of the Southern Cross (both as a mentioned organization in the scripts and alot of the mecha/vehicles); even the novels has the ASC as part of the REF.

You wanna know why I'm honked off, look up this term: 'He who controls the past, controls the future' and the favourite tactic of the Romans: Poisoning the Well. By getting everyone to believe that "Hey, the ASC was on Earth, the EF was in space" Tommy won't get any complaints from fans when a new version of The Sentinels comes out minus any mention or showing of Southern Cross equipment.

Rabid, that is what I believed. REF in space, ASC on Earth. But you are right. In the Sentinels comics and novels (I only read the first one) there is SC (southern cross) mecha and equipment.

Oh and what revamped version of the Sentinels?

MikeM

Nelzie wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Nelzie wrote: .[/b]

.

Where are the Hover Cyclones in New Generation

Somehow I dont think hover cyclones would work too well in a vacume