CS RPA "Fly Boy" Ace Vs Battle Magus

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't think that the "Shoot Net at Missiles" tactic will work.

The Net doesn't seem to register much in terms of mass, and as described in the scenario they aren't even anchored to anything else but to the missiles that strike the net.

As such, I see NO greater probability that the Missiles will explode upon contact with the Net than I would expect if the Missiles in question flew into, say, a yardful of hanging laundry; both are effectively insubstantial, and while the Missile would logically be expected to punch through the laundry, I expect the Net to do its job, adhere to the missile (since that was its apparent target), and 'allow' the missile to keep going, albeit covered in Net 'goo.'

GM's call if the 'goo' is of sufficient quantity to gum up the ailerons and/or or the exhaust (although I believe that the latter would be highly unlikely; my mind's eye sees a still-approaching missile with a bunch of Net trailing behind like some sort of superhero's cape).

Except it's not just one missile; it's a bunch of missiles all netted together.

[cornholioprime]

Why are all these "who would win?" scenarios always set up in the most never-gonna-happen way?

A battle magus...and a SAMAS pilot, see each other at 200ft on the ground in the middle of a huge battle. What the hell is the SAMAS pilot doing...ON THE GROUND??

That's like asking "who would win between a kung fu master and a sniper if they were 5 ft away from each other?"

On this we think alike.

Why wouldn't my FIRST action be, as a pilot of ANYTHING that flies, to get elevation and distance on my target??

Why wouldn't my SECOND action be to lock onto this guy well out of range of anything he throws at me, and pound away on him with my missiles??

[cornholioprime]

I don't think that the "Shoot Net at Missiles" tactic will work.

The Net doesn't seem to register much in terms of mass, and as described in the scenario they aren't even anchored to anything else but to the missiles that strike the net.

As such, I see NO greater probability that the Missiles will explode upon contact with the Net than I would expect if the Missiles in question flew into, say, a yardful of hanging laundry; both are effectively insubstantial, and while the Missile would logically be expected to punch through the laundry, I expect the Net to do its job, adhere to the missile (since that was its apparent target), and 'allow' the missile to keep going, albeit covered in Net 'goo.'

GM's call if the 'goo' is of sufficient quantity to gum up the ailerons and/or or the exhaust (although I believe that the latter would be highly unlikely; my mind's eye sees a still-approaching missile with a bunch of Net trailing behind like some sort of superhero's cape).

Except it's not just one missile; it's a bunch of missiles all netted together.

Why would I shoot everything that I had at you, all at once??

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't think that the "Shoot Net at Missiles" tactic will work.

The Net doesn't seem to register much in terms of mass, and as described in the scenario they aren't even anchored to anything else but to the missiles that strike the net.

As such, I see NO greater probability that the Missiles will explode upon contact with the Net than I would expect if the Missiles in question flew into, say, a yardful of hanging laundry; both are effectively insubstantial, and while the Missile would logically be expected to punch through the laundry, I expect the Net to do its job, adhere to the missile (since that was its apparent target), and 'allow' the missile to keep going, albeit covered in Net 'goo.'

GM's call if the 'goo' is of sufficient quantity to gum up the ailerons and/or or the exhaust (although I believe that the latter would be highly unlikely; my mind's eye sees a still-approaching missile with a bunch of Net trailing behind like some sort of superhero's cape).

Except it's not just one missile; it's a bunch of missiles all netted together.

Why would I shoot everything that I had at you, all at once??

To try for the quick kill.
Why would you shoot a lone missile instead of using your particle beam cannon or a volley?

[cornholioprime]

I don't think that the "Shoot Net at Missiles" tactic will work.

The Net doesn't seem to register much in terms of mass, and as described in the scenario they aren't even anchored to anything else but to the missiles that strike the net.

As such, I see NO greater probability that the Missiles will explode upon contact with the Net than I would expect if the Missiles in question flew into, say, a yardful of hanging laundry; both are effectively insubstantial, and while the Missile would logically be expected to punch through the laundry, I expect the Net to do its job, adhere to the missile (since that was its apparent target), and 'allow' the missile to keep going, albeit covered in Net 'goo.'

GM's call if the 'goo' is of sufficient quantity to gum up the ailerons and/or or the exhaust (although I believe that the latter would be highly unlikely; my mind's eye sees a still-approaching missile with a bunch of Net trailing behind like some sort of superhero's cape).

Except it's not just one missile; it's a bunch of missiles all netted together.

Why would I shoot everything that I had at you, all at once??

To try for the quick kill.
Why would you shoot a lone missile instead of using your particle beam cannon or a volley?

Fair enough; for the sake of argument I use my particle beam on the target while simultaneously moving backwards and upwards (just running backwards if need be) to establish distance.

But regardless of the roll of the dice, I don't see as a viable tactic popping off all of my missiles at once, not against a lone BM.

Lone Dragon, maybe, but not a lone BM.

[Dog_O_War]

-The missiles would detonate when they hit the net, as it is a solid object.

Unacceptable. If this were the case, SDC lead rounds would explode missiles, as they too are solid objects. But the book states that they need to take atleast 1-2 MD (for the specific type of mini-missile) to explode, so impacting a net would neither slow nor explode them; infact, unless the net spell descriptor states that it ties itself off, I'm not even sure they would break formation.

Uh.. I think you missed the point.

The missiles explode on impact.
The missiles explode on impact with SDC objects.
The missiles explode on impact with SDC objects, even if the missiles don't sustain 1-2 MD worth of damage in the process.
Whatever mechanism they have that caused them to detonate on impact (perhaps something as simplistic as a pressure-sensitive nose) isn't going to detonate from a bullet unless maybe the bullet hits the nose of the missile dead-on, in just the right way.
But a NET is more likely to trigger whatever mechanism the missile has for detecting impact.

A net is more likely to explode missiles than bullets are.

Okay, since you do know alot about the game and have a respected positition here on the boards and all (hell, maybe even with Palladium as well), I'll give you one free pass on wacky claims that are in no way true. /tip's hat

(I mean, this is akin to claiming that because a bed-sheet is both "solid" and "net-like" that I should be using my linens to bring missiles down. No, I think the detonator must suffer a mega-damage impact in order to explode before maximum range is attained. Nice try though)

[Lenwen]

I think what people are trying to say here ( and I could be wrong )

Is does the net move at all what so ever after it has .. well netted what ever it was ment to net ?

If it does then it clearly will not be able to put enough pressure on the missles to detonate them ..

IF it does not move then the answer is self explanetory ...

[Sir Blayse]

In the end this whole thing comes down to two facts...

What rule's the GM is going by and if he will allow these things to happen? and What dice rolls result in?

[Killer Cyborg]

The thing is, IIRC my group used to play that shooting missiles was a Called Shot, back before RUE.
Under RUE, there could be an argument made that it should still be a called shot, since called shots are specified for small targets.
BUT the rules for shooting missiles don't say anything about that, and would be pretty much rendered moot if two attacks were required.

I was actually talking about aiming for the lower part of the Sams torso, that would be an aimed shot b/c it's not the main body.

The entire torso is the main body.

Yes, it would be moot if it took two attacks to shoot missles down, so I agree with you there and it shouldn't be an aimed shot.

Or called.

[Killer Cyborg]

-The missiles would detonate when they hit the net, as it is a solid object.

Unacceptable. If this were the case, SDC lead rounds would explode missiles, as they too are solid objects. But the book states that they need to take atleast 1-2 MD (for the specific type of mini-missile) to explode, so impacting a net would neither slow nor explode them; infact, unless the net spell descriptor states that it ties itself off, I'm not even sure they would break formation.

Uh.. I think you missed the point.

The missiles explode on impact.
The missiles explode on impact with SDC objects.
The missiles explode on impact with SDC objects, even if the missiles don't sustain 1-2 MD worth of damage in the process.
Whatever mechanism they have that caused them to detonate on impact (perhaps something as simplistic as a pressure-sensitive nose) isn't going to detonate from a bullet unless maybe the bullet hits the nose of the missile dead-on, in just the right way.
But a NET is more likely to trigger whatever mechanism the missile has for detecting impact.

A net is more likely to explode missiles than bullets are.

Glad we agree.

Okay, since you do know alot about the game and have a respected positition here on the boards and all (hell, maybe even with Palladium as well), I'll give you one free pass on wacky claims that are in no way true. /tip's hat

(I mean, this is akin to claiming that because a bed-sheet is both "solid" and "net-like" that I should be using my linens to bring missiles down. No, I think the detonator must suffer a mega-damage impact in order to explode before maximum range is attained. Nice try though)

Not so much.
You and I have different assumptions about the density of the Magic Net, apparently, because I tend to think it's a bit heavier than a bedsheet.

If you think that the detonator must suffer a mega-damage impact, that's cool.
It just means that missiles rarely explode in your world, since they're not likely to suffer mega-damage impact from striking the target.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think what people are trying to say here ( and I could be wrong )

Is does the net move at all what so ever after it has .. well netted what ever it was ment to net ?

If it does then it clearly will not be able to put enough pressure on the missles to detonate them ..

IF it does not move then the answer is self explanetory ...

That's only actually important if there's only one missile being netted.
Because more than one missile that get netted together are going to crash into each other (or the ground, or whatever) and detonate that way.

[cornholioprime]

If you think that the detonator must suffer a mega-damage impact, that's cool.
It just means that missiles rarely explode in your world, since they're not likely to suffer mega-damage impact from striking the target.

Many Missiles detonate on their own as they approach to extremely close difference with the target; actual impact is often not necessary.

Wiki Article on "Proximity Detonation"

Essentially, the Missile in question "ignores" distractions (in this case, a gossamer-like Magic Net) and proceeds on course to its target; Blast Radius takes care of the rest.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you think that the detonator must suffer a mega-damage impact, that's cool.
It just means that missiles rarely explode in your world, since they're not likely to suffer mega-damage impact from striking the target.

Many Missiles detonate on their own as they approach to extremely close difference with the target; actual impact is often not necessary.

How do they know when to detonate?

[Lenwen]

RUE states that if a missle is struck and the MDC of the missle wasn't complete destroyed it will keep going to do full damage........

THen a little later it says, if the MDC of a missle is not given assume it has 25 MDC.

Where is that at my friend ?

[Lenwen]

I think what people are trying to say here ( and I could be wrong )

Is does the net move at all what so ever after it has .. well netted what ever it was ment to net ?

If it does then it clearly will not be able to put enough pressure on the missles to detonate them ..

IF it does not move then the answer is self explanetory ...

That's only actually important if there's only one missile being netted.
Because more than one missile that get netted together are going to crash into each other (or the ground, or whatever) and detonate that way.

Not to mention if they fire volleys of more then 2 at all the entire net at its widest is a 10 fit circumfrence so it will net the entire volley no matter how many were fired at once ... since the samas is not 10ft tall or taller ...

[Dustin Fireblade]

RUE states that if a missle is struck and the MDC of the missle wasn't complete destroyed it will keep going to do full damage........

THen a little later it says, if the MDC of a missle is not given assume it has 25 MDC.

Where is that at my friend ?

Pg 364 RUE

[Lenwen]

Pg 364 RUE

Thanks my friend

After further review on the rules of Shooting missles according to Rue ..

ONE the character only needs one attack to shoot at one single missle ...

TWO Samas are not taller then 10ft at all ... nor are thier mini missles more then 5 to 7 ft away at thier furthest points ...

THREE Magic net covors an area that is 10ft in diameter more then enough to covor an entire volley of mini missles (max of 6) easily netting the entire volley if you shoot at the main body of the samas ..

FOUR Mini missles are not self propelled .. meaning once thier shot thats it no more momentum an they can easily therefore be netted an throw off course ...

The logical only question left is point blank do the mini missles detonate or do they not ?

[Killer Cyborg]

If you're doing any specific aiming of any kind it's a called or aimed shot..............dude you're talking about actually trying to calculate how low the lowest missle is flying, how much of the lower Samas is exposed and aiming for it......sorry it's an aimed shot.

Nope. Doesn't work that way.

Anything that doesn't aim for dead center main body is a called or aimed shot.

Let's see what quote you pull from teh rule books this time.........lol......

Any shot that isn't a called shot hit the main body.
You don't have to aim at it; it's the default.

[Lenwen]

Any shot that isn't a called shot hit the main body.

Bingo!! Guess whats b/w the Samas main body and the intended target?................MISSLES!!!

End result, both nets hit the missles.

Only need one net to net BOTH or ALL the missles in the Volley ...

As I've said above .... THEE furthest away each missle is at the furthest is not more then 5 to 7 ft ... The diameter of the Magic net is 10ft ... the entire volley is netted in one net ... dont even need to use a called shot .. or even an aimed shot as if you shoot for centermass or in other words main body aka no called shot it means your going to net every missle the samas launches at you with that action with that single net ... wether its 1 missle or up to the samas max of 6 missles ... thier all netted ..

Point lenwen... I am so smrt I am so smrt er I mean smart I am so smart ... lmao
anyone else see that ep of the simpsons ?

[Killer Cyborg]

Any shot that isn't a called shot hit the main body.

Bingo!! Guess whats b/w the Samas main body and the intended target?................MISSLES!!!

End result, both nets hit the missles.

Except:
-The missiles are NOT necessarily between the main body and the target. It would depend on the trajectory of each shot.
-We don't have any information on how exactly Magic Nets work. For example, you're assuming that the gun launches a physical net that flies in a straight line towards the target. But the net could just manifest above the target, or right in front of the target. Or the net could be intangible until it hits the target. Or any number of other things that we don't have any info on.
-An attack takes about 2-3 seconds, but you're picturing all of this taking place in the same instant. It could well work out like this: SAMAS launches missiles, BM nets missiles, then BM nets SAMAS, all spaced out over a couple of seconds.
An attack phase isn't a single instance or action, it's a brief series. You can, for example, run 5' toward your target, raise your sword over your head, bring the sword down at the opponent, then have that sword parried by the opponent. Not only is it perfectly possible for this series of events to happen one at a time, it's actually impossible for them to happen simultaneously.

[Killer Cyborg]

-An attack takes about 2-3 seconds, but you're picturing all of this taking place in the same instant. It could well work out like this: SAMAS launches missiles, BM nets missiles, then BM nets SAMAS, all spaced out over a couple of seconds.
An attack phase isn't a single instance or action, it's a brief series. You can, for example, run 5' toward your target, raise your sword over your head, bring the sword down at the opponent, then have that sword parried by the opponent. Not only is it perfectly possible for this series of events to happen one at a time, it's actually impossible for them to happen simultaneously.

That's your interpretation of Simultaneous attack. B/c if it was as spaced out as you say then the Sam would have time to dodge teh incoming net.

No, he wouldn't.
He'd be too busy with the aftermath of launching the missiles.

You say an attack takes 2-3 seconds, yes under normal circumstances and regular flow of battle............but when somebody chooses to do a simulatneous attack he performs teh attack the same moment the attacker does b/c otherswise it's not a simo attack, it would be him waiting for his turn b/c he lost initiative.

Not really.
Because they're trying to attack each other at roughly the same time, whether or not one's faster, or whether the shots are a second apart, it's close enough for the system.

Your response to the net manifesting itself in front on top ..........and not actually following a straight trajectory shot is just pure speculation on your part and not much more than a ploy to accomplish what you want.

It is pure speculation on my part, yes.
But no more than your assumption on how it works.
As I said, it's too vague to make any assumptions about.

It's common sense, a gun fires.....it fires like any other TW gun, it fires in a straight trajectory path, if the maker/writers wanted it to manifest itself any other diffrent way other than a normal gun they would put it down in the description ect.

It fires the net the same way the spell does.
Which is not described at all.

[Killer Cyborg]

No, he wouldn't.
He'd be too busy with the aftermath of launching the missiles.

Not really.
Because they're trying to attack each other at roughly the same time, whether or not one's faster, or whether the shots are a second apart, it's close enough for the system.

Aftermath of launching missles?? that's all you got.........

That's all I need.
Believe it or not, the combat system isn't 100% realistic, so you have to take it with a grain of salt.

The BM has 1400 MPH min missles coming at him, he plans his attack in .002 seconds that he's going to fire one TW gun at the missles, fire his other gun at the lower torso of the Samas b/c othersie they'll both hit the missles, but also keeps in mind to try and shoot the second TW gun a little after teh first one so that the missles are already snared up and they both don't get the missles.

Or he thought out the plan before the fight even started.
But yeah, pretty much.

They're trying to attack at roughly the same time, but very conveniently enough it will only be after teh BM has deciphered everything that's happenning and plans everything in milliseconds.........but it's not at teh same time, but it's not really too far apart either b/c the Sam is too slow to dodge his TW gun, but....blah blah blah...

That's how the game works.
If you don't like it, house-rule things.

That's cool KC, if you and your friends enjoy playing the game by lawyering the rules by all means go for it.........

If you think that playing by the rules is "lawyering," then there's not much I can say here.
Except that perhaps you shouldn't start any more vs. threads.
Or if you do, preface them with "and feel free to ignore the rules!"
And, apparently, with: "And be sure to pick the combatant I want to win, because otherwise I get upset!"

....but 99% of the people would agree with me..........I guess you could look at it that way, you're the special 1%

lol
"99% of the people" agree with you?
What people?
Where?

[cornholioprime]

If you think that the detonator must suffer a mega-damage impact, that's cool.
It just means that missiles rarely explode in your world, since they're not likely to suffer mega-damage impact from striking the target.

Many Missiles detonate on their own as they approach to extremely close difference with the target; actual impact is often not necessary.

How do they know when to detonate?

Why do you ask the question when you (conveniently??) fail to cut-and-paste the article on Proximity detonation??

[Killer Cyborg]

If you think that the detonator must suffer a mega-damage impact, that's cool.
It just means that missiles rarely explode in your world, since they're not likely to suffer mega-damage impact from striking the target.

Many Missiles detonate on their own as they approach to extremely close difference with the target; actual impact is often not necessary.

How do they know when to detonate?

Why do you ask the question when you (conveniently??) fail to cut-and-paste the article on Proximity detonation??

lol
I didn't just fail to cut-and-paste it; I missed it completely.
Who the hell was that supposed to have been convenient for?
It makes me look like an idiot, and it doesn't do you any good either as far as I can tell.

I'm going to blame the tequila for my mistake.

As for the article:

There are 5 kinds of proximity fuses:
-radio frequency sensing
-optical sensing
-acoustic sensing
-magnetic sensing
-pressure sensing

Radio Frequency sensing fuses detonate near any object that reflects radio-waves back at them.
And the Magic Net might well do this. Or not.
No way to tell.
Optical Sensing would probably be detonated by the net.
Acoustic sensing (if I get it right) would only detonate by certain sounds (like an airplane engine), so the net wouldn't detonate it, but neither would the Battle Mage.
Magnetic Sensing is only detonated by large, magnetic objects like battleships. Neither mage nor net would detonate it.
Pressure sensing is used for underwater mines, so it's not really applicable here.

Seems to me that that kind of fuze would just make it more likely for the net to detonate the missile, since it wouldn't be based on impact, just proximity to an object.

But I don't think that's the kind of detonators that the missiles in Rifts use, because the whole point of a proximity fuze is to make it easier to hit the target (because you don't have to HIT the target), and missiles use the same strike rules as anything else.

[cornholioprime]

No Contest.

No Contest for the SAMAS Pilot, that is. Sorry, O Battle Magus: I love ya, but yer outclassed..

The SAMAS Pilot, presumably smarter than a Skelebot in the Siege on Tolkeen, and 'experienced' in combating the supernatural as both a Coalition Soldier AND an Ace SAMAS Pilot, immediately starts establishing as much distance as possible between himself and the Battle Magus, dodging as necessary and firing off his own shots every now and again to keep the B.M off balance as he increases distance and altitude.

Even assuming that the B.M. gets off a lucky shot with the Magic Net, his Thrusters are in the back of his armor, so Magic Net isn't going to necessarily do anything; and judging on the visual design of the SAMAS, the pilot can fly that armor even if the armor is physically bound from head to toe in Magic Net; his directional thrusters will take care of the rest. Or, he could just run away at 70 mph if his legs haven't been bound as his torso was.

(Trusting the Bonuses provided in the OP, the SAMAS Pilot is +8 to dodge all on its own, and +10 on initiative)
Unless the B.M rolls a LOT of extremely good rolls, and/or the SAMAS Pilot rolls a LOT of 1's to dodge, the SAMAS should easily be able to get to 4000 or more feet of distance (a combination of vertical and horizontal distance) in short order and with only minimal to moderate damage to his Main Body.

From that extreme distance, well out of range of the B.M.'s Weapons Payload, He can take his time and assess the situation (keeping him locked on by radar from miles out if need be).....and then pepper him with his missiles compliment at his leisure.

The Striker has 28 missiles that, even if the B.M. dodges/rolls with impact for each and every one and if minimum strength missiles are used, will do a minimum of about 140 MD (6 times 1D4 X 10, 6 times 1D4 X10, and 16 times 1D4 X 10, divided by half if the B.M. dodges ALL of them) and a maximum of about 1120; even more if the SAMAS' rollout includes Plasma Missiles (then it goes as high as 1680).

If there's anything left of our erstwhile Sorcerer-Warrior, follow up with liberal applications of Particle Beam. After all, ya can't be too careful when you deal with that Magic-using scum, that's what the Emperor says!!

I think that the Battle Magus needs to buy a different set of Armors and Weapons and Spells than what was provided for him on the O.P. On the other hand, maybe he can cast just enough Armor Spells to withstand the onslaught before his meager store of PPE runs out......

[Lenwen]

Dude................you're way off..............I agree with you................what we're talking about is KC saying in teh simulatneous attack he's going to net the missles and Samas. Saying he'll net the missles with one TW Snare gun and the Sam with the other.

should have replaced smart with lost in your simpsons reference............lol................j/k...

Well then the question then becomes ..
Can Simultaneous attack be used in conjunction with PAIRED WEAPONS[/b) skill to be used to strike the samas as well as the Mini missles ...

Powers of the BM include but are not limited to ..

[b]Paired Weapons -Used for Simultaneous attack ... and for Striking two different Targets ...as per the description in FoM book this is one of the major reasons thier powerfull YES they can shoot you with two weapons an it uses up ONE melee action ... they can even shoot TWO seprate things if thier in thier line of vision or within periphrial vision as per thier write up .. with no penalties .. they do need to roll to strike for each shot tho ..

Quick Draw - gives huge amounts of + initiative to enable the BM to shoot first ...

Sharpshooting - grants him the ability to shoot you at various crazy insain ways that would normally be penalized shots ... at regular roll to strike ..

Synapsis = Yes they can shoot you twice per one of thier melee actions and yes they can shoot TWO different targets with those ONE action so long as your in thier sight ... wether its straight line of sight or peripheral vision as per thier write up ..

Yes they can shoot the samas as well as the mini missles they shoot with one action according to thier write up an the skill descriptions in Rue ..

[Killer Cyborg]

No Contest.

No Contest for the SAMAS Pilot, that is. Sorry, O Battle Magus: I love ya, but yer outclassed..

The SAMAS Pilot, presumably smarter than a Skelebot in the Siege on Tolkeen, and 'experienced' in combating the supernatural as both a Coalition Soldier AND an Ace SAMAS Pilot, immediately starts establishing as much distance as possible between himself and the Battle Magus, dodging as necessary and firing off his own shots every now and again to keep the B.M off balance as he increases distance and altitude.

Even assuming that the B.M. gets off a lucky shot with the Magic Net, his Thrusters are in the back of his armor, so Magic Net isn't going to necessarily do anything; and judging on the visual design of the SAMAS, the pilot can fly that armor even if the armor is physically bound from head to toe in Magic Net; his directional thrusters will take care of the rest. Or, he could just run away at 70 mph if his legs haven't been bound as his torso was.

The Battle Mage, esumably smarter than a Skelebot in the Siege on Tolkeen, would net the SAMAS if he wins initiative, but if the SAMAS wins and responds by flying off, then it's buffing time.
Impervious to Energy and AoI.

(Trusting the Bonuses provided in the OP, the SAMAS Pilot is +8 to dodge all on its own, and +10 on initiative)
Unless the B.M rolls a LOT of extremely good rolls, and/or the SAMAS Pilot rolls a LOT of 1's to dodge, the SAMAS should easily be able to get to 4000 or more feet of distance (a combination of vertical and horizontal distance) in short order and with only minimal to moderate damage to his Main Body.

From that extreme distance, well out of range of the B.M.'s Weapons Payload, He can take his time and assess the situation (keeping him locked on by radar from miles out if need be).....and then pepper him with his missiles compliment at his leisure.

The Striker has 28 missiles that, even if the B.M. dodges/rolls with impact for each and every one and if minimum strength missiles are used, will do a minimum of about 140 MD (6 times 1D4 X 10, 6 times 1D4 X10, and 16 times 1D4 X 10, divided by half if the B.M. dodges ALL of them) and a maximum of about 1120; even more if the SAMAS' rollout includes Plasma Missiles (then it goes as high as 1680).

100 MD from the AoI in the armor, replenished as needed.
And incoming missiles can be shot down as well as dodged/rolled.

If there's anything left of our erstwhile Sorcerer-Warrior, follow up with liberal applications of Particle Beam. After all, ya can't be too careful when you deal with that Magic-using scum, that's what the Emperor says!!

Hence the Impervious to Energy addition to the armor, which would render the energy rifle useless.

I think that the Battle Magus needs to buy a different set of Armors and Weapons and Spells than what was provided for him on the O.P. On the other hand, maybe he can cast just enough Armor Spells to withstand the onslaught before his meager store of PPE runs out......

I agree that different armor/weapons/spells than picked by the OP would be a good idea, which is why I went with different stuff.

Overall, if you flew off 4,000' away (and I'm not sure how you'd do that in an arena fight), you could manage a draw, because neither person could deal effective damage to the other one.

[cornholioprime]

100 MD from the AoI in the armor, replenished as needed.
And incoming missiles can be shot down as well as dodged/rolled.

That MDC value of 140 is the absolute minimum amount that the BM can take from the missiles, even with his dodges all being successful, per RUE's Missile Dodge Rules (as in, you don't get to get away from them completely). Since one logically expects die rolls and resultant rolls to be much higher than that, the AoI likely goes out the window after the very first hit or two from the very first missiles (all those of you who think that that Spell is COMPLETELY unsuited to Rifts Combat against PA109 weapons, raise your hand) -and the Mage is still alive and armored only because RUE's Rules allow his AoI to soak up all of the hit.

If we're speaking about the B.M.s attacks in the meantime, using RUE's "shooting at a moving target rules," the B.M. is as much as -6 to strike the SAMAS itself (300 MPH, -1 for each 50 MPH), another -1 if it is actively evading the shots...and, worse, the B.M. has a penalty of as much as -10 to shoot down the Missiles (500 MPH, -1 per each 50 MPH); all those penalties don't even take into account the Pilot's Initiative and Dodge bonuses built into in his armor and from his training.

If there's anything left of our erstwhile Sorcerer-Warrior, follow up with liberal applications of Particle Beam. After all, ya can't be too careful when you deal with that Magic-using scum, that's what the Emperor says!!

Hence the Impervious to Energy addition to the armor, which would render the energy rifle useless.

That quote was made partially in jest.

After the beating that the Battle Magus takes from the missiles, his Armor will barely be in one or two pieces, much less still have the Imp2Energy Spell left in the armor's tattered remains.

Overall, if you flew off 4,000' away (and I'm not sure how you'd do that in an arena fight), you could manage a draw, because neither person could deal effective damage to the other one.

If the SAMAS isn't allowed to use its capabilities in combat to the fullest -in this case, an 'arena' whereby the SAMAS can go as high and as far as its construction allows -then this wouldn't be a "real" fight between the two, rather a handicapped SAMAS vs. a Battle Mage.

FWIW, as far as completely land-based scenarios go, I think that there are very, very, very few land-locked Armors, Power Armors, Cyborgs or even Giant Robots that can go up against a Battle Magus.

I can truly see a scenario whereby the Magi could take on an Abolisher or a Devastator...and possibly win, or at least give it a run for its money.

[Killer Cyborg]

100 MD from the AoI in the armor, replenished as needed.
And incoming missiles can be shot down as well as dodged/rolled.

That MDC value of 140 is the absolute minimum amount that the BM can take from the missiles, even with his dodges all being successful, per RUE's Missile Dodge Rules (as in, you don't get to get away from them completely).

If you're shooting form 4,000' away, a dodged missile might well explode pretty darned far behind the Battle Mage, far enough that he's out of range of the blast.

4,000' is beyond the range of Frag missiles, so you can't use those unless you want to get closer.
High Explosive missiles have a blast radius of 5'.
Armor Piercing have a blast radius of 3'.
Plasma have a radius of 15'.

HE and AP can be dodged completely with a single attack.
Plasma missiles would require 2 dodges (taking 2 attacks) to get out of the blast radius completely. But a single casting of Impervious to Fire would negate them.

Since one logically expects die rolls and resultant rolls to be much higher than that, the AoI likely goes out the window after the very first hit or two from the very first missiles (all those of you who think that that Spell is COMPLETELY unsuited to Rifts Combat against PA109 weapons, raise your hand) -and the Mage is still alive and armored only because RUE's Rules allow his AoI to soak up all of the hit.

And because of his super-heavy Naruni Force Field, and armor.
And (here is the point I was making in that last post), the AoI could be put back up between missile volleys.
One AoI gets dropped or heavily damaged, another goes up.

If we're speaking about the B.M.s attacks in the meantime, using RUE's "shooting at a moving target rules," the B.M. is as much as -6 to strike the SAMAS itself (300 MPH, -1 for each 50 MPH),

Sure.
But if the SAMAS is shooting while flying, he's going to be shooting Wild, so he'll be at -6 to strike as well.

another -1 if it is actively evading the shots...and, worse, the B.M. has a penalty of as much as -10 to shoot down the Missiles (500 MPH, -1 per each 50 MPH); all those penalties don't even take into account the Pilot's Initiative and Dodge bonuses built into in his armor and from his training.

True enough.
By that same token, if the Battle Mage is moving around and taking evasive action, then the SAMAS is going to have trouble hitting him as well (though not as much, as there wouldn't be a speed bonus).

After the beating that the Battle Magus takes from the missiles, his Armor will barely be in one or two pieces, much less still have the Imp2Energy Spell left in the armor's tattered remains.

Not as much of a beating as you think.

Overall, if you flew off 4,000' away (and I'm not sure how you'd do that in an arena fight), you could manage a draw, because neither person could deal effective damage to the other one.

If the SAMAS isn't allowed to use its capabilities in combat to the fullest -in this case, an 'arena' whereby the SAMAS can go as high and as far as its construction allows -then this wouldn't be a "real" fight between the two, rather a handicapped SAMAS vs. a Battle Mage.

Agreed.
But I didn't set up the parameters of this fight.
And by that same token, if the Battle Mage isn't on a Ley Line or nexus, then he's not able to use his capacities in combat to the fullest.

FWIW, as far as completely land-based scenarios go, I think that there are very, very, very few land-locked Armors, Power Armors, Cyborgs or even Giant Robots that can go up against a Battle Magus.

Certainly not one with a 3 million dollar budget.
They're too munchy as it is.

I can truly see a scenario whereby the Magi could take on an Abolisher or a Devastator...and possibly win, or at least give it a run for its money.

Mages can almost always win if they have enough time and the right spells/devices (and PPE to cast/use them).

[Killer Cyborg]

[quote"]
HE and AP can be dodged completely with a single attack.

And because of his super-heavy Naruni Force Field, and armor.
And (here is the point I was making in that last post), the AoI could be put back up between missile volleys.
One AoI gets dropped or heavily damaged, another goes up.

Sure.
But if the SAMAS is shooting while flying, he's going to be shooting Wild, so he'll be at -6 to strike as well.

True enough.
By that same token, if the Battle Mage is moving around and taking evasive action, then the SAMAS is going to have trouble hitting him as well (though not as much, as there wouldn't be a speed bonus).

Mini missles in volleys of 4 or more can't be dodged, its in teh rules, sorry, if you don't like it you can write the company...........or give them a call since your so "tight" with them..........[/quote]

You screwed up the quotes, so I can't tell who you're talking to here, but it's a safe bet that they already know that volleys of 4+ short range or better missiles can't be dodged.

RUE Pg 189, "magic requires concentration and verbalization , two thing you can't do under attack", .........then a little later "getting popped in the mouth or stomach, or getting knocked down, blinded, or anything that breaks the spell casters concentration and makes him stop in the middle of his verbalization of the spell prevents him from finishing it"..........but I guess 6 missles exploding in fron of his AoI won't bother him, and the smoke screen/explosion it causes won't either ...........

Doesn't matter, since my Battle Mage isn't casting any spells.

If the Sam pilot has WP SHarpshooting and picks shoot while moving to avoid penalties which every Sam pilot would take since a main tactic of Sam pilots is straffing runs then he doesn't get the -6...........and the Sam gets a +6 to strike anyways with his missles also.....

IIRC, Sharpshooting doesn't apply to Heavy or Heavy Energy weapons.

Cornholioprime: max damage is 2240, b/c 45% of the time teh missles will do double damage b/c of the new armor piercing rules, and that's not considering that the Sam pilot can get an EOD specialist friend or comrad to re-work his missles to do 25% more damage(EOD Specialist ability), in that case you're looking at 2800 MD max. ..............and also doing and averag of 210 MD on regular strike and 420 MD on a double damage strike.

If you want to change the original scenario, sure.
But originally you didn't mention anything about having friends soup-up your armor and/or weapons.

Also last bit or armor rule applies to armors only, never mentions any kind of force fields, so any leftover damge gets through.

Never says that it doesn't.
And arguably Armor of Ithan IS armor.
It's right there in the spell description "creates an invisible suit of armor."

But let's not even get into that one, because it opens up a whole new can of worms.

For the most part, I say that the GI-Joe rule wasn't important here, because it's negated by overwhelming force anyway.

So if the BM misses his first strike to snare up teh missles, which the odds are against him b/c the samas gets a +6 to strike while the BM gets nothing then there's a 45% chance the first volley does double damage doing 300MD for regular missles or 420 MD for reworked ones.

Already addressed why the strike penalties don't matter with a Snare Gun, and that matter hasn't been completely resolved.

Originally, I don't believe that there were any penalties for shooting at missiles: a 5+ hit, just like any other attack. In RUE, it seems logical to use the penalties listed for shooting at fast-moving targets.

KC himself said the missles would be like shooting a moving object so you're looking at a -26 to strike the missles roughly since they travel at 1400 MPH............so -26 to strike, with+0 = only possible on a natural 20

HE and Frag travel at 500 MPH, as Corny said.
AP travel at 1400 mph.
Plasma travel at 1200 mph.

For simplicity's sake, pick which type of missile you'd go with and we can discuss it specifically, instead of talking about all of them at once.

[Dog_O_War]

(I mean, this is akin to claiming that because a bed-sheet is both "solid" and "net-like" that I should be using my linens to bring missiles down. No, I think the detonator must suffer a mega-damage impact in order to explode before maximum range is attained. Nice try though)

Not so much.
You and I have different assumptions about the density of the Magic Net, apparently, because I tend to think it's a bit heavier than a bedsheet.

If you think that the detonator must suffer a mega-damage impact, that's cool.
It just means that missiles rarely explode in your world, since they're not likely to suffer mega-damage impact from striking the target.

Seriously?

Have you checked out the damage for crashing at 1400mph? Seems mega-damage to me.

[Lenwen]

(I mean, this is akin to claiming that because a bed-sheet is both "solid" and "net-like" that I should be using my linens to bring missiles down. No, I think the detonator must suffer a mega-damage impact in order to explode before maximum range is attained. Nice try though)

Not so much.
You and I have different assumptions about the density of the Magic Net, apparently, because I tend to think it's a bit heavier than a bedsheet.

If you think that the detonator must suffer a mega-damage impact, that's cool.
It just means that missiles rarely explode in your world, since they're not likely to suffer mega-damage impact from striking the target.

Seriously?

Have you checked out the damage for crashing at 1400mph? Seems mega-damage to me.

With out question it is mega damage ... I think its on the scale of something like 1d6 per 50 miles per hour or something similar to that(IIRC) . Making that 1400mph crash something in the neigbor hood of 28d6 damage ..

[Killer Cyborg]

(I mean, this is akin to claiming that because a bed-sheet is both "solid" and "net-like" that I should be using my linens to bring missiles down. No, I think the detonator must suffer a mega-damage impact in order to explode before maximum range is attained. Nice try though)

Not so much.
You and I have different assumptions about the density of the Magic Net, apparently, because I tend to think it's a bit heavier than a bedsheet.

If you think that the detonator must suffer a mega-damage impact, that's cool.
It just means that missiles rarely explode in your world, since they're not likely to suffer mega-damage impact from striking the target.

Seriously?

Have you checked out the damage for crashing at 1400mph? Seems mega-damage to me.

Yes, I have.
But the damage for high-speed crashes are based on a minimum vehicle sized in the neighborhood of 1,000 lbs.
Mini-missiles weigh significantly less than that; the crash rules don't apply.

You could argue that technically the tables bottom out with the "under 1,000 lbs" category, and that mini-missiles are technically under 1,000 lbs, so they should technically inflict the listed damage of (IIRC) 1d6/50 mph...
But if you go that route, then the same logic would apply to bullets.

[Lenwen]

If BM wins initiative, which odds are against him......
Then shoots teh net at the Samas and the Sam misses the dodge........which odds are in the Sams favor....
Then it's buffer time you say?
LIke I previously posted, you can't cast magic under direct fire, which the Samas will be doing.....

Thats all fine an Dandy but in all honesty bro .. How is the Sam going to be fireing anything at the BM if he is in fact flying AWAY from the BM ... ?

Remember .. Mini Missles are not SMART missles an have No engines of thier own ..

Can only fire the rail gun forwords up or down or to the sides ... not backwords ...

So how is the BM even under direct Fire from the sam ?

Replinishing you AoI requires you pumping PPE into it, requiring concentration.........not possible under direct fire.

Absolutly right ..
The Sam is flying away however .. so how is the BM in any way shape or form in direct fire ?

[Killer Cyborg]

The Battle Mage, esumably smarter than a Skelebot in the Siege on Tolkeen, would net the SAMAS if he wins initiative, but if the SAMAS wins and responds by flying off, then it's buffing time.
Impervious to Energy and AoI.

If BM wins initiative, which odds are against him......
Then shoots teh net at the Samas and the Sam misses the dodge........which odds are in the Sams favor....
Then it's buffer time you say?
LIke I previously posted, you can't cast magic under direct fire, which the Samas will be doing.....

No... he'll be flying away in this scenario.
That'll take an attack or two.
Even if it only takes one attack, that's all my Battle Mage needs to activate the Superior Invisibility that is built (IIRC) into his armor.

100 MD from the AoI in the armor, replenished as needed.
And incoming missiles can be shot down as well as dodged/rolled.

Replinishing you AoI requires you pumping PPE into it, requiring concentration.........not possible under direct fire.

Quit making stuff up.
Casting spells requires concentration.
Activating a TW ability does not, unless otherwise specified.

Not to mention the armor you posted up for your guy is worth well over 3 million dollars.

I listed the costs in my post, and I believe it was under the 3 million credit price range.
If my math is off, show me.

Find me something comparable in the books that has all those features and how much it goes for.......everytime I see armors with Invisibility superior, AoI(at tenth level at that), ect .......they go for millions....
Where did you find your prices from that you listed anyways? is there a quick refernce guide or something?

The original Rifts book.

[Killer Cyborg]

Distance isn't always backwards..........smart pilot would fly straight up for distance........where teh foe would have to look up at the sun ect to find him.........

... and where his chest and shoulder/wing missile launchers will still be pointed straight forward.

And, of course, you're assuming that SAMAS have VTOL capabilities, but I think that big-ass jet on their back indicates otherwise. He wants to go up, that's cool; but he's got to angle up, not levitate.

Why cant he fire while flying up? He can.

Yup.
At anything in front of him.
If he wants to shoot Wild.

Are you saying your armor can calll upon AoI infinite amount of times?

Nope.
Just like you're not saying that the SAMAS has infinite missiles.

with what PPE?

His own, presumably.
But hey, I might have had enough in my budget to spring for some extra PPE Talismans as well.

Doesn't it have to be channeled?

Sure.
But that doesn't require significant concentration.

[Lenwen]

Distance isn't always backwards..........smart pilot would fly straight up for distance........where teh foe would have to look up at the sun ect to find him.........

Why cant he fire while flying up? He can.

Are you saying your armor can calll upon AoI infinite amount of times? with what PPE? Doesn't it have to be channeled?

Either way K your samas has his back to the Bm ...

No samas in the world can attack some one while thier back is to them ...

So flying straight up is a moot point ..

[Killer Cyborg]

Distance isn't always backwards..........smart pilot would fly straight up for distance........where teh foe would have to look up at the sun ect to find him.........

Why cant he fire while flying up? He can.

Are you saying your armor can calll upon AoI infinite amount of times? with what PPE? Doesn't it have to be channeled?

Either way K your samas has his back to the Bm ...

No samas in the world can attack some one while thier back is to them ...

So flying straight up is a moot point ..

What? where did you get that.....

Samas description says it can hover...........so yes it does have VTOL capabilities, otherwise it wouldn't be able to.....

Fair point. I'll look that up when I get home.

His forearm missles can still be fired(16 of them).

Perhaps, perhaps not.
It depends on what the piloting controls are.

Seriously, it's getting pathetic with the excuses.

I've been thinking that about you since page 1.

But the thread's less likely to turn nasty and get locked if we don't say it.

[Lenwen]

Distance isn't always backwards..........smart pilot would fly straight up for distance........where teh foe would have to look up at the sun ect to find him.........

Why cant he fire while flying up? He can.

Are you saying your armor can calll upon AoI infinite amount of times? with what PPE? Doesn't it have to be channeled?

Either way K your samas has his back to the Bm ...

No samas in the world can attack some one while thier back is to them ...

So flying straight up is a moot point ..

What? where did you get that.....

Samas description says it can hover...........so yes it does have VTOL capabilities, otherwise it wouldn't be able to.....

His forearm missles can still be fired(16 of them).

Seriously, it's getting pathetic with the excuses.

Take no offence this is after all a debate ... ok so he has vtol capabilities .. how does that help with him flying backwords away from the BM ?

His forarm cant bend backwords can it to shoot the BM if he is in fact flying away ...

Even if his arm could do a 180degree turn bro ... shooting blindly ... at a BM ... is not under direct fire by any means ....

I apologize if my questions based on logic are indeed getting pathetic bro ... but in all honesty .. the samas using VTOL to fly backwords ... arms bending backwords to shoot blindly does not equate to being under direct fire ...

[Lenwen]

Lenwen: the sam would be flying straight up..........not backwards.....facing foward the whole time.

Piloting controls this time huh?........lol......this is great!!

And the BM would be on the ground ...Your back directly to the Bm ....

your tellin me that the Sam can fly straight up with out having to directly face up but in fact can fly straight up while facing forword ?

That is not in the Samas description ..unless I per chance have missed it some where ...

[Killer Cyborg]

Piloting controls this time huh?........lol......this is great!!

Yup.
Got anything canon regarding the controls of a SAMAS?
Nope, because the authors never got into it.
Which leaves it in the vast realm of GM Discretion.
I've seen different GMs rule different ways on it, each of them picking the way that made the most sense to them.

[cornholioprime]

100 MD from the AoI in the armor, replenished as needed.
And incoming missiles can be shot down as well as dodged/rolled.

That MDC value of 140 is the absolute minimum amount that the BM can take from the missiles, even with his dodges all being successful, per RUE's Missile Dodge Rules (as in, you don't get to get away from them completely).

If you're shooting form 4,000' away, a dodged missile might well explode pretty darned far behind the Battle Mage, far enough that he's out of range of the blast.

No such rules allowing for a complete miss of that type -unless I missed something in the RUE section on Missile Combat. Sure, it's a little munchy for a High Tech Character to "waste" missiles on a target as "insignificant" as a Battle Mage when the rules essentially say, "Missiles always hit, one way or the other" -but then again, it's pretty much a suicide mission for most folks to look at a creature armed with PA 109 missile technology and try to take it on.

4,000' is beyond the range of Frag missiles, so you can't use those unless you want to get closer.
High Explosive missiles have a blast radius of 5'.
Armor Piercing have a blast radius of 3'.
Plasma have a radius of 15'.

I did not see such a range limitation on ANY missile listed on the rollout of this SAMAS model (all for this armor have a range of at least one mile in Coalition War Campaign), and according to the cut-and-paste chart in RUE, it can be as much as 2-5 miles of range.

HE and AP can be dodged completely with a single attack.

Again, show me where you got this ruling from; if you're speaking of the BM being allowed to dodge an incoming missile attack, then essentially dodge the Blast Radius in the same action (presumably that's what you're getting at), I don't see where that is listed in either RUE or the Original Edition.

It's admittedly easy for me to say that I might have missed it because I don't think that I've ever seen Missiles used on individual personnel before, but still.....

To recap, I don't see how the B.M. would be able to get off a couple of dodges against the missile in either Game Play Rules or "real" life (missiles typically propel their explosive force outward at supersonic if not hypersonic speeds). And I don't see it stated, anywhere, that the Missile Strike is to somehow be treated as one "attack" and the Blast Radius is to be treated as another "attack;" sounds to me as if the whole process, missile strike and detonation, is one instantaneous "action" that the Target gets to attempt one action against.

Again, if you can show me where it might be stated otherwise, I'll be happy to correct myself.

Plasma missiles would require 2 dodges (taking 2 attacks) to get out of the blast radius completely. But a single casting of Impervious to Fire would negate them.

That would 'require' the player to metagame knowledge of the type of missile that is incoming towards his character (if someone can tell me how the BM would otherwise figure out the type of missile streaking towards him and then casting the appropriate counterspell, I'm all ears).

I'm just not sure that, in a gaming context, that the BM character gets to cast "Impervious to fire" just because the Player announced to the GM that he's using a Plasma Missile; in all "reality," the BM just shouldn't know -not when the missile in question is streaking towards him at speeds as high as 500 MPH.

Since one logically expects die rolls and resultant rolls to be much higher than that, the AoI likely goes out the window after the very first hit or two from the very first missiles (all those of you who think that that Spell is COMPLETELY unsuited to Rifts Combat against PA109 weapons, raise your hand) -and the Mage is still alive and armored only because RUE's Rules allow his AoI to soak up all of the hit.

And because of his super-heavy Naruni Force Field, and armor.

Playing the SAMAS Pilot in character, I'm not going to have him waste ALL of his missile attacks; The instant my character sees that a Missile is impacting against a shield/force field, I'll have him close to the 4000' range, count upon my superior Dodge and Hit capabilities, and chip away at his Force Fields and Armors, magical and otherwise.

Sure, I've got a penalty shooting at the BM as he is moving and dodging about, but my +10 bonus will more than offset my own Moving Target penalty; unfortunately for the B.M., no such bonuses apply (except for his Quick Draw Initiative, if it applies to rifles; B.Ms are supposed to get tremendous bonuses to Initiative).

And (here is the point I was making in that last post), the AoI could be put back up between missile volleys.
One AoI gets dropped or heavily damaged, another goes up.

Hence my character forcing the B.M. to keep erecting them, possibly by combining barrages of shots followed up by the odd Missile until his PPE runs out. PLUS, the B.M. has NO initiative bonus compared to the SAMAS to erect that Magic Shield (the Power Armor Pilot gets at least +10 if the OP's stats are to be believed, and Initiative is supposed to be rolled if a character wants to do a Magic Defense Counterattack Action per rules in RUE).

If we're speaking about the B.M.s attacks in the meantime, using RUE's "shooting at a moving target rules," the B.M. is as much as -6 to strike the SAMAS itself (300 MPH, -1 for each 50 MPH),

Sure.
But if the SAMAS is shooting while flying, he's going to be shooting Wild, so he'll be at -6 to strike as well.

Offset by Pilot/SAMAS bonuses which exactly cancel each other out. Meanwhile, the B.M. is -6 to hit back in return.

another -1 if it is actively evading the shots...and, worse, the B.M. has a penalty of as much as -10 to shoot down the Missiles (500 MPH, -1 per each 50 MPH); all those penalties don't even take into account the Pilot's Initiative and Dodge bonuses built into in his armor and from his training.

True enough.
By that same token, if the Battle Mage is moving around and taking evasive action, then the SAMAS is going to have trouble hitting him as well (though not as much, as there wouldn't be a speed bonus).

I think that that's under the heading of the B.M. being a Moving Target, so again the -6 Penalty will be canceled out by the SAMAS' +6 to hit.

Overall, if you flew off 4,000' away (and I'm not sure how you'd do that in an arena fight), you could manage a draw, because neither person could deal effective damage to the other one.

If the SAMAS isn't allowed to use its capabilities in combat to the fullest -in this case, an 'arena' whereby the SAMAS can go as high and as far as its construction allows -then this wouldn't be a "real" fight between the two, rather a handicapped SAMAS vs. a Battle Mage.

Agreed.
But I didn't set up the parameters of this fight.
And by that same token, if the Battle Mage isn't on a Ley Line or nexus, then he's not able to use his capacities in combat to the fullest.

It wasn't set up in an enclosed area, just a place in a "big battle" where they wouldn't be interfered with.

[cornholioprime]

ADDENDUM TO MY LAST POST: Just went back to the Original Rifts Book, and saw where someone might indeed completely dodge a Missile (strangely enough, unless I missed it, RUE seems to indeed imply that Missiles hit no matter what, and that you can only roll with impact and eat the 1/2 damage; I'm gonna look back through the RUE to see where I might have missed that POSTSCRIPT: Found it.).

Sorry for my own screw-up; I just never, never actually saw or remembered in an actual game where expensive Missiles are used on individual, physically small personnel (not to mention that in the relatively few games that I managed to play we just didn't play with or against Things With Missiles IIRC), and never thought that it was possible to completely dodge them, not at those speeds.

My bad.

[Killer Cyborg]

ADDENDUM TO MY LAST POST: Just went back to the Original Rifts Book, and saw where someone might indeed completely dodge a Missile (strangely enough, unless I missed it, RUE seems to indeed imply that Missiles hit no matter what, and that you can only roll with impact and eat the 1/2 damage; I'm gonna look back through the RUE to see where I might have missed that POSTSCRIPT: Found it.).

Sorry for my own screw-up; I just never, never actually saw or remembered in an actual game where expensive Missiles are used on individual, physically small personnel (not to mention that in the relatively few games that I managed to play we just didn't play with or against Things With Missiles IIRC), and never thought that it was possible to completely dodge them, not at those speeds.

My bad.

I found it in RUE, and was surprised when I did.
It was an easy rule to miss: no apology necessary.

[Killer Cyborg]

4,000' is beyond the range of Frag missiles, so you can't use those unless you want to get closer.
High Explosive missiles have a blast radius of 5'.
Armor Piercing have a blast radius of 3'.
Plasma have a radius of 15'.

I did not see such a range limitation on ANY missile listed on the rollout of this SAMAS model (all for this armor have a range of at least one mile in Coalition War Campaign), and according to the cut-and-paste chart in RUE, it can be as much as 2-5 miles of range.

The missile launchers are listed as "usually about a mile" because that's around the range for AP and Plasma missiles, which are the standard type of missiles the armor uses.
The ranges are on p. 97 of CS War Campaign.

But a single casting of Impervious to Fire would negate them.

That would 'require' the player to metagame knowledge of the type of missile that is incoming towards his character (if someone can tell me how the BM would otherwise figure out the type of missile streaking towards him and then casting the appropriate counterspell, I'm all ears).

Well, the BM might theoretically know what kind of missiles come standard with that armor, and prepare accordingly, but more realistically he might have to take a hit in order to find out (or a near miss).

I'm just not sure that, in a gaming context, that the BM character gets to cast "Impervious to fire" just because the Player announced to the GM that he's using a Plasma Missile; in all "reality," the BM just shouldn't know -not when the missile in question is streaking towards him at speeds as high as 500 MPH.

Agreed, and good point.

Since one logically expects die rolls and resultant rolls to be much higher than that, the AoI likely goes out the window after the very first hit or two from the very first missiles (all those of you who think that that Spell is COMPLETELY unsuited to Rifts Combat against PA109 weapons, raise your hand) -and the Mage is still alive and armored only because RUE's Rules allow his AoI to soak up all of the hit.

And because of his super-heavy Naruni Force Field, and armor.

Playing the SAMAS Pilot in character, I'm not going to have him waste ALL of his missile attacks; The instant my character sees that a Missile is impacting against a shield/force field, I'll have him close to the 4000' range, count upon my superior Dodge and Hit capabilities, and chip away at his Force Fields and Armors, magical and otherwise.

This is where it gets really important whether or not your GM has force fields covered by personal defenses like Impervious to Energy.

But I'm not sure that it would be that easy to tell that the missiles are hitting a force field, especially from 4,000' away.
Really, all he'd likely see is the missiles hit the target and explode.

Sure, I've got a penalty shooting at the BM as he is moving and dodging about, but my +10 bonus will more than offset my own Moving Target penalty; unfortunately for the B.M., no such bonuses apply (except for his Quick Draw Initiative, if it applies to rifles; B.Ms are supposed to get tremendous bonuses to Initiative).

A straight shooting match does seem to put you at the advantage.
Which is why I'd endeavor to avoid such a situation.

And (here is the point I was making in that last post), the AoI could be put back up between missile volleys.
One AoI gets dropped or heavily damaged, another goes up.

Hence my character forcing the B.M. to keep erecting them, possibly by combining barrages of shots followed up by the odd Missile until his PPE runs out. PLUS, the B.M. has NO initiative bonus compared to the SAMAS to erect that Magic Shield (the Power Armor Pilot gets at least +10 if the OP's stats are to be believed, and Initiative is supposed to be rolled if a character wants to do a Magic Defense Counterattack Action per rules in RUE).

You said you'd spend your first attack flying off and getting distance.
He'd spend his first attack activating one of his magical defenses.

If we're speaking about the B.M.s attacks in the meantime, using RUE's "shooting at a moving target rules," the B.M. is as much as -6 to strike the SAMAS itself (300 MPH, -1 for each 50 MPH),

Sure.
But if the SAMAS is shooting while flying, he's going to be shooting Wild, so he'll be at -6 to strike as well.

Offset by Pilot/SAMAS bonuses which exactly cancel each other out.[/quote]

Putting him at +0 to strike overall?

Meanwhile, the B.M. is -6 to hit back in return.

Apparently.
Which means he'd need a 14+ to hit.

another -1 if it is actively evading the shots...and, worse, the B.M. has a penalty of as much as -10 to shoot down the Missiles (500 MPH, -1 per each 50 MPH); all those penalties don't even take into account the Pilot's Initiative and Dodge bonuses built into in his armor and from his training.

True enough.
By that same token, if the Battle Mage is moving around and taking evasive action, then the SAMAS is going to have trouble hitting him as well (though not as much, as there wouldn't be a speed bonus).

I think that that's under the heading of the B.M. being a Moving Target, so again the -6 Penalty will be canceled out by the SAMAS' +6 to hit.

If they're both moving around, then they'd both be shooting Wild and both be shooting at moving targets.
Those penalties would stack, as far as I know.

It wasn't set up in an enclosed area, just a place in a "big battle" where they wouldn't be interfered with.

I stand corrected.

[Killer Cyborg]

Was looking through the books and the Sam VTOL capabilities you dismissed b/c of their "big ass rocket" they have on their back says they have VTOL and can hover/maneuver without using teh main jet in the back for up to 1000 ft.

Actually, when you pointed out that they could hover, what I said was that I'd look it up when I got home.

So like everybody mentioned earlier, the Sam would get some distance b/w him and his target, but like any good soldier they want to cover their moves........

Fair enough, but this is a NEW strategy on your part. You initially just said you'd open up with the missiles. Then Corny came in and said that he'd fly back and get distance first. Then you pretended that it was common sense all along that the SAMAS would be VTOLing straight up while launching missiles.
It's a fair enough strategy, but don't pretend for a moment that it was your original strategy, or that it was Cornholio's.

And like any battle, the strategy the Battle Mage uses depends on what his opponent uses.

.....so the Sam would spend the first couple melee actions VTOL'ing all the way up to 1000's feet while shooting his particle beam rifle while the BM helplessly tries to net him the first maybe even second action, but will fall short b/c as soon as teh Sam starts VTOL it moves him out of the 200 ft range the TW snare gun has due to the hypotenuse he will be at now.

Another point where the GM's call decides things. It's a simultaneous attack, and exactly how simultaneous is up to the GM. Whether or not he can net you before you get away is a GM's call.

BUT since I tend to think that an Action/Attack doesn't happen all in one instance (even though you previously disagreed), I'd tend to allow it, as the SAMAS could fly straight up for a second before shooting. Although technically it could be argued that he's starting his attack as soon as he tries to move, and is therefore able to be simo-attacked.

In any case, if the GM allowed the SAM to escape being simo-attacked, the Battle Mage would take the hit. Then, on his attack, assuming that he failed initiative, he'd just go invisible (while walking away from his original position).

Just in case you say the BM can snare the incoming missles, well at the speed of 2052 ft/sec and your 200 foot range, you would have to time it perfectly b/c you shoot to soon and the net falls short, shoot to late and you're toast. Since I like to use logic, I'll give you the numbers, the BM has a .097 seconds(less than 1/10) window for his 200 ft range...........and like you said earlier a -26 to strike due to shooting a moving object.

What I said earlier is that strike penalties don't matter with a Magic Net.

[Dog_O_War]

Okay, it says that missiles may be shot down. They are destroyed if they take damage, but the net neither deals damage nor causes a direction change; it simply covers the target and "entangles" them by the strictest of definitions.

Even clustered, there is no ruling that says the missiles change direction nor slow down or recieve a penalty to hit, and since the net is an attack akin to a bullet it will not act as an object which the missiles "slam" into and explode on, similar to a wall (if that were the case, SDC rounds would be used to stop missiles).

So no matter what the case the net will do nothing but give the missiles a cape to fly with as some type of twisted super-hero hurtling itself towards its most certain doom.

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay, it says that missiles may be shot down. They are destroyed if they take damage, but the net neither deals damage nor causes a direction change; it simply covers the target and "entangles" them by the strictest of definitions.

Only it WILL cause a direction change. The missiles will be pulling against each other, since they have different trajectories, and the outer fins of the missiles (the outer ones, at least) will be snagged in the net which will give them more resistance than the other side of the missile, which will cause the missile to turn.

Even clustered, there is no ruling that says the missiles change direction nor slow down or recieve a penalty to hit, and since the net is an attack akin to a bullet it will not act as an object which the missiles "slam" into and explode on, similar to a wall (if that were the case, SDC rounds would be used to stop missiles).

As I said before, that depends on the nature of the missiles' detonators.

[Lenwen]

Several Problems with the VTOL straight up ...

ONE - How fast can VTOL shoot the Samas straight up ?

TWO - Its limmited cealing for the VTOL means its not going to be able to as fast as its max is nor even half that speed .

THREE - How fast can the Net shoot out of the Techno-Wizard gun ?

Least this is what I was thinking about ..

[Lenwen]

I'd say it can lift/VTOL as good as someone wearing a Jet Pack, so whatever that is.

Seriously.............is all we're going to do it question game rules?? I rather talk about battle plans and tactics .......

the battle plans an tactics are sorta hand in hand with the game rules bro .

Samas battle plan .. I'm going to VTOL up to max altitutde of 1000 ft ...

BM's battle plan net the samas while he is VTOL'ing straight up ..

Does the net move faster then the VTOL'ing samas ... ( GM call or house rule it ? )

Just wanted to give an example of what I am trying to say .

Seriously the battle could go either way .. dependent on the GM and that particular GM's view's on what would happen .. The Samas will try to stay at distance ... shooting with mini missles ... while the BM will keep trying to net them ... then either the sam will have to engauge in his laser weapon where as the BM could easily make himself immune to the laser ... after that the Sam is going to have to either engauge in hand to hand or fly away .. where as the BM is goin to engauge in hand to hand or use what ever else weaponry wise he has to attack the samas .. But the samas cant make itself immune to what the BM can toss at it .. where as the BM can make himself immune to lasers ..