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CavScout wrote:It certainly isn’t a unified command, as you have so elegantly pointed out. Rick Hunter is the REF military commander yet he doesn’t have command of the entire REF military (in some parts of the script, in others he claims to have it) if they hit the surface.

That you have suddenly reached out to Robotech Art 3 when it contradicts the scripts you’ve been citing is extremely odd. It directly contradicts the scripts as Edwards clearly commands air units (Ghost squadron) as well as REF units while they are the ground.

It will be really hard to have any meaningful discussion if a source you cite has an error and then you simply jump to another source.

Excuse me? Did you conveniently forget that The Army has their own fighter pilots, courtesy of dialogue from Dark Finale. There is no conflict in this, as I already stated that Edwards and his men were flying in SPACE and therefore under Rick Hunter's direct operational control. When the Ground Forces are deployed to a planetary surface, they are under Edwards (as an ASC officer) control. This is not rocket surgery.

It is in fact in relation to Vince and Wolfe’s combat operations on the surface of the planet. If you wish to continue to obfuscate on this, I will transcribe the exchange here if need be.

I have not obfuscated anything and I resent the implication.

False, please reread.

Baloney.

Just to make it perfectly clear, the RDF (UEF) is made up of at least 3 Service Branches: Air/Space Forces (of which Major General Rick Hunter, Admiral Lisa Hayes and Lt.(?) General Rolf Emerson are a part), The Army of the Southern Cross (of which Field Marshall Eli Anatole Leonard, General Gunther Reinhardt, Brigadier General Thomas Riley Edwards, Colonel Jonathan Wolfe, 1st Lt. Dana Sterling and 1st Lt. Marie Crystal et al are a part) and The Global Military Police. Its probable that the UEF Navy is also a service branch.

The REF is made up of, as per dialogue, the top 10% of the RDF (UEF). Those officers did NOT stop being part of the RDF when they were assigned to the REF. Lang even SAYS 'my fellow members of the Robotech Defense Force'.

mechanimorph wrote:

Archr wrote:

mechanimorph wrote:

Jefffar wrote:At the very least there is a change in role and a major renovation for SSL between TMS and NG. Otherwise, where did the space to build and store the Neutron-S missiles come from?

The N-S Missiles were Angel Class colony ships which had apparently started production around 2014.

Question: where is it stated that the missiles were actually colony ships? I do not remember that from the series, so is it from the novels, a fan site, or is there some official answer to that?

Also, if there is a thread that explains this, could someone post a link so this topic does not derail the thread?

Thanks.

Archr

The Art of the Shadow Chronicles has a paragraph or two and the Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles comic also shows the Angel Class colony ships. I think this thread goes into the discussion.

The problem is....in the PtSC, we have shadowy silhouttes that look exactly like Neutron S missiles threatening the SDF-3, implying that Edwards and the Haydonites are in cahoots, and presumably the UEF trucked them back to Liberty for study/recycling...Since Lisa doesn't immediately state something like 'Okay, that's where those missing colony ship hulls went to!" or "Why do those look like our Angel-class?"...Unless said objects are detected by sensors and not seen by mark one eyeball...then disappear after Edwards buys it, there's a big question here...
Hole...
Big...
Truck...
Through...

Yes this discussion (which will hopefully remain civil) has highlighted some of the things that need to be closed up in any recreation of the Sentinels . . . otherwise we'll have folks arguing about it forever.

Robot Urchin wrote:

wilenburg wrote:So the Order of Operations for the REF was
Rick Hunter Was in Overall Command of the Mission
Lisa Hayes-Hunter was in charge of the SDF-3 and ws also the 2nd in command of the overall forces
Then there was T.R. Edwards was in charge of the Ground forces and 3rd in command.

The 90 minute The Sentinels VHS video had some really weird, seemingly conflicting chain of command statements:
During a press conference, Dr. Lang stated he was the leader of the mission (diplomatic leader?).
While seeing the bride before the wedding, Major General Rick Hunter commented that he was outranked by Admiral Lisa Hayes.
After Edwards makes nasty comments to Rick, Rick talks to Max and claims the mission is his responsibility.
When they test-fly the red & blue alpha/beta pairs, Dr. Lang seems to be in charge of research and development. So he has two jobs?

I was confused and did not know what was going on. I know they were trying to create a planet hopping 'star wars' filled with wonder and amazement, using macross characters who have a built-in audience, but couldn't they have provided a little internal consistency?

The Sentinels would benefit from being re-invented. Alot.

Dr. Lang had a dual roll in the mission he was in charge of R&D as well as the mission commander. I forgot about that scene.

URGENT: PROFANITY FOLLOWS (sorry I am drunk)

As a former Marine I will make this very simple for everyone to understand....if the Air Force general somehow gets made theatre commander, the Marine private, Navy ensign, and Army colonel all salute and say "Yes, Sir!!!!!!!!" at the top of their lungs and do the ******* JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Above the theatre commander is whatever civilian authority is in place....in the novels it is the Plenipotentiary (sp??) council who would have answered to the United Earth Government...as far as the revised timeline we have no idea.

You can say that this is space opera so real military protocol does not apply but in a real world setting...this is it.

whoever is the ranking officer...no matter his branch of service...has authority to say "I out rank you and am in command!"

he may have everyone dissent and follow the Gunnery Seargent who they are on a first name basis with (by this I mean they call him Gunny and he calls them Private) and ignore the ******* Zoomy who thinks he knows what he is doing and carry on with getting the **** out of the area or completing some mission.

After this they will have to explain why they ignored the officer's orders (unless he if "hit by enemy fire") and accept the consequences of their actions

Saying it is space opera and the usual military rules apply is a weasely way to say "I want my characters to do what they want with no consequences." As far as I am concerned...this will only apply in during the Invid Occupation. Other than that there will be a higher authority to put a boot in your ass when you **** up.

Chris0013 wrote:As a former Marine I will make this very simple for everyone to understand....if the Air Force general somehow gets made theatre commander, the Marine private, Navy ensign, and Army colonel all salute and say "Yes, Sir!!!!!!!!" at the top of their lungs and do the **** JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Edwards DOES follow orders, though. He clearly follows Hunter's orders when his unit is in Space as he is under Hunter's direct operational control. However, when the Ground Forces on the SDF-03 are deployed to a planet, they fall under Edward's direct operational control. That is what is shown in the scripts. And, just to forestall anything more, Edwards' Ghost Squadron (which apparently flies Beta's according to the scripts) would qualify as Army fliers as Beta's being Fighter/Bombers would be needed for Ground Attack/Close Air Support.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

Chris0013 wrote:As a former Marine I will make this very simple for everyone to understand....if the Air Force general somehow gets made theatre commander, the Marine private, Navy ensign, and Army colonel all salute and say "Yes, Sir!!!!!!!!" at the top of their lungs and do the **** JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Edwards DOES follow orders, though. He clearly follows Hunter's orders when his unit is in Space as he is under Hunter's direct operational control. However, when the Ground Forces on the SDF-03 are deployed to a planet, they fall under Edward's direct operational control. That is what is shown in the scripts. And, just to forestall anything more, Edwards' Ghost Squadron (which apparently flies Beta's according to the scripts) would qualify as Army fliers as Beta's being Fighter/Bombers would be needed for Ground Attack/Close Air Support.

If Hunter is the theater commander then it does not matter if Edwards in on the ground, in space or taking a **** in the officers head of the SDF-3...Hunter is in command from the moment they drop out of fold and Edwards needs to follow his orders.

Chris0013 wrote:If Hunter is the theater commander then it does not matter if Edwards in on the ground, in space or taking a **** in the officers head of the SDF-3...Hunter is in command from the moment they drop out of fold and Edwards needs to follow his orders.

So, you're saying that an Air Force General will excercise direct operational control over Army units in a Unified Command? He will literally formulate specific plans instead of letting Army units do their job?

As I've already stated, Edwards DOES follow Hunter's orders when in space as Hunter has direct operational control of all Air-based units. Hunter may have overall authority and can demand certain things, but Edwards has direct operational control of Army units.

He's saying that Hunter can give an Order to Edwards and Edwards' forces and they have to obey, even when they are planetside.

Case in point, in 1991 Schwartzkopf, an army guy, was in charge of airforce, marine and navy assets. He also had command of air, land and sea assets from countries such as Bangladesh, Canada, France, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the United Kingdom. He did, for example, mostly let the air force guys do their own planning, but he imposed specific requirements on what he wanted and needed done and had frequent briefings with them to monitor their progress and update them as to what was required.

So if Hunter is in charge of the expedition, all the troops in the expedition must follow his orders on ship, in space and planetside.

Unless of course the authors need a plot device to create tension.

Just a reminder folks, the original topic of this discussion was ways to revise the Sentinels into something better than what it was. One poster was presenting his ideas on that and we should channel our posts towards helping that poster develop his ideas rather than arguing over the minutiae of the series.