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Greyaxe wrote:True atlanteans do not pay twice for activating tattoos. If theat were true no true atlantean could activate ther tattoos, they dont ahve enough ppe.

base 10
6 for each tattoo for a total of 22

Flaming sword costs 10 X2 for activation 20 Possible
Heart pierced by wooden steak 15 X2 for activation 30, not possible for the average atlantean to use this tattoo. I think this is compelling evidence to conclude the average atlantean is not a novice tattoo user, given they "learn to use their tattoos at a young age".

No X2 PPE cost for atlanteans to use theri tattoos.

Good argument!

Still, Atlanteans can have up to 4 tattoos in addition to their marks of heritage, so if they have even 2 more, they have enough PPE to activate the Heart tattoo.
Nomads, for example, have an additional three tattoos.

Looking at the common division of OCCs among True Atlanteans (Atlantis, 16), only 17% wouldn't automatically have more than 22 PPE based on their OCC.
And of those 17%, a number might have those extra 2 tattoos needed to bring their PPE up.

I consider the True Atlantian starting PPE to be in error.
The starting 10 PPE looks to me like it should be a bonus not a fixed starting base. If you give them and extra 2D6 or more likely 3D6 PPE (since they're so magically inclined) they then usually have enough PPE to use their starting tattoos at double the cost.

No other race that I can recall has a fixed base. I see no reason the TA's should.

Dr. Doom III wrote:I consider the True Atlantian starting PPE to be in error.
The starting 10 PPE looks to me like it should be a bonus not a fixed starting base. If you give them and extra 2D6 or more likely 3D6 PPE (since they're so magically inclined) they then usually have enough PPE to use their starting tattoos at double the cost.

No other race that I can recall has a fixed base. I see no reason the TA's should.

Interesting.

Godhand wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Still, Atlanteans can have up to 4 tattoos in addition to their marks of heritage, so if they have even 2 more, they have enough PPE to activate the Heart tattoo.
Nomads, for example, have an additional three tattoos.

The thing is, I feel they shouldn't have to get more tattoos just to use their marks of heritage.

And you may well be quite right; they may be intended to pay the same price that T-Men do, it just wasn't conveyed by the books.

Even with 6 full tattoos, someone like a nomad is not going to be able to make use of even the weak SDC animals. He'll be bristling with weapon tattoos (which hardly fits with the class) and maybe a couple of the low end power tattoos.
And that Nomad will only ever get to use any one tattoo at a time.

The weaker animal tattoos only require 20 PPE for a non-T-Man, so any Atlantean could make use of those. Medium animals require 30 PPE, but 6 tattoos would provide enough PPE to activate that one too.
Even the 40 PPE medium animals would be able to be called.
It's just the Large animals and monsters that couldn't be summoned.

As you say, they'd only get to use any one tattoo at a time, and a lot of recharging time would be needed for most of them.
It's possible that this is intentional; the earlier books weren't as powerful as they are now, and the writers may have felt that for somebody who isn't a T-Man would be doing pretty well to have even ONE tattoo function per day.
Cyberknights are listed as being able to have tattoos, and IIRC they only have a base of 6d6 PPE.
That's an average of 21, plus six per tattoo. A CK might have as many 4 tattoos, giving him 55 PPE.
That sounds like a lot, but one of the standard tattoos for a CK is the Knight in Armor tattoo, which would cost 50 PPE to activate!
So again, we're looking at him only being able to activate one big tattoo at a time, and he'd have a longer recharge time than Atlanteans.

Ultimately, it comes down to how powerful you want your Atlanteans to be. If you want them all to be epic warriors who can make frequent use of their tattoos (and it seems you do), then have them pay half cost (as you probably already do).
If you want them to be glorified humans who have tattoo powers they can pull out in emergencies from time to time, play it as it lies.

There's not enough evidence yet for me to make a call on intention, but as written Atleanteans can't get much use out of their powers.

Another notion for anybody who wants an official ruling is to scour the books for any non-T-Men Atlanteans NPCs in the books, to see if they list a tattoo activation cost for them.
That might give us something more to go on.

Jefffar wrote:We had this come up in game, much to our TA Wizard's dismay I put the threshold for the reduced PPE costs at when one becomes a tattooed man - ie more than 6 Tattoos, which also the line where the magic abilities get chopped off.

If i recall correctly you originally agreed that it rather perposterous that some TA's would be unable (essentially) to use both of their own marks of heritage unless they had supplimentary PPE from another source, and thus it was reasonable to presume they had the training to use tattoos properly, which does agree with the description of them being 'trained in their use'.

At a later point for reasons of your own you chose to reverse that particular decision, as per the 'only full tattoo-men can use the tattoos at cost' part mentioned later on in the tattoo magics' description. I can recall being rather unhappy about both the timing and manner that decision was conveyed, but i suppose this thread isn't the correct forum for that. (not that much remains to be said that wasn't already)

Godhand wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Another notion for anybody who wants an official ruling is to scour the books for any non-T-Men Atlanteans NPCs in the books, to see if they list a tattoo activation cost for them.
That might give us something more to go on.

That's a really excellent idea.

Off the top of my head I looked up these NPCs:

Aristophanes/Nahualli - TA Stone Master, all Tattoos listed at base PPE cost. Pantheons pg.33
Prince Misvina - TA Merc, all Tattoos listed at base PPE cost. Arzno pg.69

Good find!

Barring any new evidence, I have to agree that True Atlanteans are an exception to the rule; they can activate their tattoos at the T-Men rates.

(Find anything on Chiang-Ku? )

Rama-Set (Africa, p144) doesn't list prices. I know of one in England too though.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Godhand wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Another notion for anybody who wants an official ruling is to scour the books for any non-T-Men Atlanteans NPCs in the books, to see if they list a tattoo activation cost for them.
That might give us something more to go on.

That's a really excellent idea.

Off the top of my head I looked up these NPCs:

Aristophanes/Nahualli - TA Stone Master, all Tattoos listed at base PPE cost. Pantheons pg.33
Prince Misvina - TA Merc, all Tattoos listed at base PPE cost. Arzno pg.69

Good find!

Barring any new evidence, I have to agree that True Atlanteans are an exception to the rule; they can activate their tattoos at the T-Men rates.

(Find anything on Chiang-Ku? )

Unfortunatly both those examples could just be errors on the part of the writer and editor to take the rule into account.

Dr. Doom III wrote:Unfortunatly both those examples could just be errors on the part of the writer and editor to take the rule into account.

Well, CJ did make occasional mistakes, IIRC.
And I don't think that Jason Richards* is without flaws.

But it's all we have to go on for now.
Two different authors taking the same interpretation of the rule, and getting their interpretation published officially.

I agree it's not 100%, but it's close enough in my book.






*which is to say, "all of us."

Misfit KotLD wrote:Rama-Set (Africa, p144) doesn't list prices. I know of one in England too though.

Rama Set is super ridiculous anyway. Either he will kill the PCs or they will kill him before he runs out of PPE.

Balabanto wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:Rama-Set (Africa, p144) doesn't list prices. I know of one in England too though.

Rama Set is super ridiculous anyway. Either he will kill the PCs or they will kill him before he runs out of PPE.

Which relates to the discussion how?

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Godhand wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Another notion for anybody who wants an official ruling is to scour the books for any non-T-Men Atlanteans NPCs in the books, to see if they list a tattoo activation cost for them.
That might give us something more to go on.

That's a really excellent idea.

Off the top of my head I looked up these NPCs:

Aristophanes/Nahualli - TA Stone Master, all Tattoos listed at base PPE cost. Pantheons pg.33
Prince Misvina - TA Merc, all Tattoos listed at base PPE cost. Arzno pg.69

Good find!

Barring any new evidence, I have to agree that True Atlanteans are an exception to the rule; they can activate their tattoos at the T-Men rates.

(Find anything on Chiang-Ku? )

Unfortunatly both those examples could just be errors on the part of the writer and editor to take the rule into account.

In which case the rules as written are unclear enough to confuse canon authors.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Balabanto wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:Rama-Set (Africa, p144) doesn't list prices. I know of one in England too though.

Rama Set is super ridiculous anyway. Either he will kill the PCs or they will kill him before he runs out of PPE.

Which relates to the discussion how?

In general, I tend not to worry about particular pieces of bookkeeping if they're irrelevant to a situation. When a guy has like 13,000 PPE, you know darn well he's never gonna spend it all.

Balabanto wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Balabanto wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:Rama-Set (Africa, p144) doesn't list prices. I know of one in England too though.

Rama Set is super ridiculous anyway. Either he will kill the PCs or they will kill him before he runs out of PPE.

Which relates to the discussion how?

In general, I tend not to worry about particular pieces of bookkeeping if they're irrelevant to a situation. When a guy has like 13,000 PPE, you know darn well he's never gonna spend it all.

Which has what to do with canon presentation of a Chaig-Ku dragon, a race whose PPE costs for magic tattoos is in debate?

Godhand wrote:I believe it was Talavar who said something to the effect of 'What's the point of giving them an ability that is useless?'

The problem with "useless" is no one ever has the same definition as each other.

Godhand wrote:In these cases I take a step back from the wording of the rule and try to put it in perspective.

What is there to be gained or lost from barring TAs & Chiang Ku from paying base cost?

Is there a power or balance issue at stake?

How about flavor or thematic issues, what's the best fit?

While paying double PPE for tattoos wouldn't render them useless, I still ask myself 'what purpose does it serve, other than being faithful to the exact wording of the rule?'

Well, it would make Atlanteans more human, and it would make T-Men more impressive.
It would give the Atlanteans a nice edge in certain situations, but not let them be TOO powerful (a term that varies by campaign and story).
Power, Balance, Flavor, Theme... it all depends on what you're going for.

Balabanto wrote:

runebeo wrote:I understand why this rule was added with so many characters getting tattoos in the old days, but nothing like have magic tattoos you can't activate. I think True Atlanteans should only pay the normal amount accept for Atlantean magic users, then got lots of P.P.E. let them pay double after the extra bonus six P.P.E. per tattoo they get from having them. It says Cyber Knights can have up to 4 tattoos, yet adding 24 P.P.E. to their pool most still wouldn't be able to activate even some of the simple ones. A horse tattoo would cost 40 still would come in handy. In our old gaming group we all had horse tattoos and they were our main form of transportation. I think adding a extra rule that being on a Ley Line reduces the cost back to normal price would help make them worth having again. Some drawbacks are that Dog Boys can detect characters with high P.P.E. Pools over thirty and also makes Psi-Stalker see them as a possible meal.

This does not mean, however, that a TA Cyberknight can have ten. They're still stuck with max Six. I don't think a TA cyberknight should be allowed to have "Special Bonus Tattoos."

It say a Cyber Knight can only ever get 4 Max. I don't really think a True Atlantean would become a Cyber Knight since the cyber armor could not bond to them since it becomes magical after bonding and they cannot be transformed, but if they just use normal armor no big deal then.

Magical After Bonding means it's magical armor, not a transformation effect. It's the magic that bonds it to the person. If True Atlanteans can't become cyberknights, then they shouldn't be able to become mystics either, or, for that matter, any other class where a magic item bonds with them. As a matter of fact, by that interpretation, it means they couldn't get their tattoos either, since that would be transforming the character also.

And really - what's stopping someone from being a cyber-knight, but passing on the cyber-armour? It's hardly a make-or-break aspect of the class.

Balabanto wrote:Magical After Bonding means it's magical armor, not a transformation effect. It's the magic that bonds it to the person. If True Atlanteans can't become cyberknights, then they shouldn't be able to become mystics either, or, for that matter, any other class where a magic item bonds with them. As a matter of fact, by that interpretation, it means they couldn't get their tattoos either, since that would be transforming the character also.

The armor is listed as 'Living Armor'. It never says it is magical. It could be psi or some other thing. It also doesn't become living 'after bonding'. The Cyber-Knight gets this armor at level 1. It becomes 'living' (able to heal) and has increased MDC at level 4.

What magical items do Mystics have that bond with them?

A mystic learns his spells by mystically bonding with the universe. So technically, under that interpretation, an Atlantean couldn't learn spells or gain psionics. They can't be transformed. So therefore, they can't transform themselves either. Not all transformations are physical. But an immunity to transformation, by that interpretation, would be an absolute. The True Atlantean wouldn't be able to take any class where they underwent ritual adjustments, which would mean no tattoos (Counter to race), and no other adjustments that don't come from training.

Since this is counter to the description of the race, True Atlanteans can become cyberknights and use the armor normally.

Balabanto wrote:A mystic learns his spells by mystically bonding with the universe. So technically, under that interpretation, an Atlantean couldn't learn spells or gain psionics. They can't be transformed. So therefore, they can't transform themselves either. Not all transformations are physical. But an immunity to transformation, by that interpretation, would be an absolute. The True Atlantean wouldn't be able to take any class where they underwent ritual adjustments, which would mean no tattoos (Counter to race), and no other adjustments that don't come from training.

Since this is counter to the description of the race, True Atlanteans can become cyberknights and use the armor normally.

Then I just ask by what definition does the word 'bond' = 'transformation'? Either physical or 'mystical'? Under that definition a person couldn't use superglue on a TA, as it is a chemical bonding agent.

I have found any time 'technically' is used, it is a quite blatant attempt to skirt past a rule/law.

Lawyer: Why didn't you tell me you had a car when you applied for bankruptcy protection?
Client: I gave it to my brother 2 weeks ago, so 'technically' it isn't mine.
Lawyer: Great, now your case is denied based off the fact you hid assets from your creditors/trustee/judge.

Bill didn't cheat on Hillary, because he 'technically' didn't have sexual relations with that woman.

Talavar is right, it was done in the Arzno book. (saying no to the cyber-armor)

I also have a big difference between training = not being a novice.
Being trained how to do something does not mean all of the sudden you are an expert it in. You can be trained at something and still be a novice in it.

Apprentices are still 'novices' and trained in their field. Boot camp trains soldiers, but until they've been in their first battle, they're still novice soldiers (green).

As for the SDC animals being useless, well, for one thing, they are one shot meat shields. For another, they have heightened senses of smell and hearing. For a third, normal animals can go places humans can't.

ZorValachan wrote:I have found any time 'technically' is used, it is a quite blatant attempt to skirt past a rule/law.

Technically you are correct.

Balabanto wrote:As for the SDC animals being useless, well, for one thing, they are one shot meat shields. For another, they have heightened senses of smell and hearing. For a third, normal animals can go places humans can't.

Agreed.
There's plenty you can do with them.

My Favorite SDC animal example. The PC's actually used this.

Tattooed Man: "I summon a dog."

Me: Okay

Tattooed Man: I see the guy following me, right?

Me: Yeah. You made your roll.

Tattooed Man: The dog goes over and piddles on his leg.

Me: ?????? Okay.

Tattooed Man: While he's staring and screaming, I run up to him and grab him, because he's sure not looking at me!

Tattoo Magic you DO have to think sometimes.

For animals I always use the old Beastmaster tactic. Get a thief (monkey, ferret, dog, etc), get a scout (bird of some sort - preferably one that doesn't draw a lot of attention - songbirds are great for this), and get a warrior. Make your warrior a MDC creature, and your thief and scout SDC creatures. In fact I always imagined that's why the mix of beginning animals was two SDC to one MDC creature. You don't need MDC creatures for recon, but you do need them for fighting at your side (or beneath you, if they are also a steed - I usually prefer dragondactyls or griffins for that reason).

Misfit KotLD wrote:In which case the rules as written are unclear enough to confuse canon authors.

Or just scattered about haphazardly.

Oh and since I didn’t see the Mystic Knight thread their immunity to energy doesn’t extend to their armor/clothes. It’s not an aura. It’s like a dragons immunity to heat still get his clothes burnt of if it went into a fire.
It’s not useless. It’s a backup.

There are situations where that's a phenomenal tactic. If your Mystic Knight has Deflect, which takes a single action, he can choose what gets deflected and what doesn't. So everything he's immune to, he doesn't deflect. Everything he's not immune to, he rolls against. It's not perfect, but it's better than being armorless AND dead.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:In which case the rules as written are unclear enough to confuse canon authors.

Or just scattered about haphazardly.

It adds to the confusion.

Greyaxe wrote:True atlanteans do not pay twice for activating tattoos. If theat were true no true atlantean could activate ther tattoos, they dont ahve enough ppe.

base 10
6 for each tattoo for a total of 22

Flaming sword costs 10 X2 for activation 20 Possible
Heart pierced by wooden steak 15 X2 for activation 30, not possible for the average atlantean to use this tattoo. I think this is compelling evidence to conclude the average atlantean is not a novice tattoo user, given they "learn to use their tattoos at a young age".


No X2 PPE cost for atlanteans to use theri tattoos.

I cant help but notice .. Every single person claiming the True Atlantean cant activate thier magic tatoo's is also .. totally ingoring the fact that they get Additional PPE as per the class of mage they choose to be as we..

Rifts World Book 2 Atlantis pg # 16 . wrote:" P.P.E. Base - 10, plus the average Atlantean has an additional 12ppe from the "marks of Heritage" and 6 P.P.E. for each additional magic tattoo"

That right there makes it more then possible to activate the tattoo's .. 10+12+6 = 28 . From just 1 Tattoo. This also is not counting the PPE gained from the respective OCC they so choose as further evidenced from reading further along the Base PPE guidlines as such I will quote .

Rifts World Book 2 Atlantis pg # 16 wrote:"Furthermore , the Atlantean has the PPE from any magic OCC the exact amount varies with each magic OCC . "

Meaning .. If the Atlantean chose to be a LLW .. that Atlantean would get the prerequisite PPE bonus listed in the PPE base of the LLW ..

If that Atlantean chose to be a Shifter he/she would automatically get that shifters base PPE added into the base for the Racial PPE .. meaning in this case ..

Atlantean shifter PPE ..
10 - base ( racial )
12 - "Marks of Heritage"
6 - tattoo .

Now add in the Shifters overall base PPE ..

Rifts Dimensional Book 7 : Megaverse Builder . Pg # 43 wrote:PE added into the PPE overall number ..
30-130 PPE gained off just the Class itself ...
3-18 added per lvl ..

Overall total PPE for the lvl 1 Atlantean shifter with marks of heritage is 61 minnimum and 176 maximum .. ( not including the PE number which could raise this overall by as much as 30 extra points ... putting that max over 200 ..

Easily able to attain MORE tattoes .. as well as being able to activate any tattoo regaurdless of the amount needed an that is to include the double PPE cost penalty ..

This is how I have played this troubled spot in the rules since the day I personally seen it . And have never had a bad exp for it .

For those rare Atlanteans that choose not to be Mage class's I have always givin them the standard Human bonas and gave them a regular 1d6+ per lvl in ppe bonas .

Lenwen wrote:I cant help but notice .. Every single person claiming the True Atlantean cant activate thier magic tatoo's is also .. totally ingoring the fact that they get Additional PPE as per the class of mage they choose to be as we..

Not all Atlantians are mages. Such as the Atlantian Nomad.

Rifts World Book 2 Atlantis pg # 16 . wrote:" P.P.E. Base - 10, plus the average Atlantean has an additional 12ppe from the "marks of Heritage" and 6 P.P.E. for each additional magic tattoo"

That right there makes it more then possible to activate the tattoo's .. 10+12+6 = 28 . From just 1 Tattoo. This also is not counting the PPE gained from the respective OCC they so choose as further evidenced from reading further along the Base PPE guidlines as such I will quote .

Your math is in error.
10+Marks=22
The 6 is for each new tattoo beyond the marks.
10+12+6 would be 3 tattoos.

Rifts World Book 2 Atlantis pg # 16 wrote:"Furthermore , the Atlantean has the PPE from any magic OCC the exact amount varies with each magic OCC . "

Meaning .. If the Atlantean chose to be a LLW .. that Atlantean would get the prerequisite PPE bonus listed in the PPE base of the LLW ..

If that Atlantean chose to be a Shifter he/she would automatically get that shifters base PPE added into the base for the Racial PPE .. meaning in this case ..

Atlantean shifter PPE ..
10 - base ( racial )
12 - "Marks of Heritage"
6 - tattoo .

Now add in the Shifters overall base PPE ..

Rifts Dimensional Book 7 : Megaverse Builder . Pg # 43 wrote:PE added into the PPE overall number ..
30-130 PPE gained off just the Class itself ...
3-18 added per lvl ..

Overall total PPE for the lvl 1 Atlantean shifter with marks of heritage is 61 minnimum and 176 maximum .. ( not including the PE number which could raise this overall by as much as 30 extra points ... putting that max over 200 ..

Easily able to attain MORE tattoes .. as well as being able to activate any tattoo regaurdless of the amount needed an that is to include the double PPE cost penalty ..

This is how I have played this troubled spot in the rules since the day I personally seen it . And have never had a bad exp for it .

For those rare Atlanteans that choose not to be Mage class's I have always givin them the standard Human bonas and gave them a regular 1d6+ per lvl in ppe bonas .

Already covered.

Stormchild wrote:Maybe TA's get their marks of heritage at regular activation cost and any additional tattoos cost double to activate. After all, they are trained in their use...

The exact wording for TAs is:

All Atlanteans are taught how to use their tattoos.

That's pretty straightforward and applies to all tattoos. (its in the ability for increased SDC from tattoos). And the examples from the book that have been checked all use standard PPE cost for their tattoos (those that have PPE cost). The only "question" that remains is whether Chiang-ku have to pay double (even when they were explicitly removed from the section on paying double, as were True Atlanteans - which is the most telling clue for me). The intent of True Atlanteans not paying double has born fruit, so I think the intent that Chiang-ku can activate them for normal price will bear out as well, eventually (I know that's how I'm going to play it).

I still would rule the other way, make them pay double.

Now IIRC there is a Chiang Ku Dragon with Tat's in HU. That may help identify whether or not they pay double.

But for the sake of argument within my ruling, they would pay double also.

Lenwen may have something with adding the PE to the base PPE for an Atlantean or any one who receives a Magic Tattoo. It has been a long time since I have looked at the Magic Tattoo rules, and whether or not Atlantis has been updated to RUE (which may also cause a problem). But if even a single Tat allows access to base PPE of PE plus a die roll, that may be enough.

Add in the fact that any TA who is not an adventurer or magic user probably would be hanging around a high magic area with a Pyramid, Nexus, and/or Ley Line near by to tap into.

Tiree wrote:I still would rule the other way, make them pay double.

Now IIRC there is a Chiang Ku Dragon with Tat's in HU. That may help identify whether or not they pay double.

Chiang-6, Villians Unlimited.
He was the prototype.

Don't have my book handy to look him up, though.

Tiree wrote:Add in the fact that any TA who is not an adventurer or magic user probably would be hanging around a high magic area with a Pyramid, Nexus, and/or Ley Line near by to tap into.

A Nomad is just that. Nomadic
Also not being a practioner of magic they wouldn’t know how to tap other sources for PPE, with the possible exception of a pyramid.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Tiree wrote:I still would rule the other way, make them pay double.

Now IIRC there is a Chiang Ku Dragon with Tat's in HU. That may help identify whether or not they pay double.

Chiang-6, Villians Unlimited.
He was the prototype.

Don't have my book handy to look him up, though.

Yep a prototype using different rules.

Godhand wrote:

Lenwen wrote:I cant help but notice .. Every single person claiming the True Atlantean cant activate thier magic tatoo's is also .. totally ingoring the fact that they get Additional PPE as per the class of mage they choose to be as we..

Not all of them choose to be mages.

Lenwen wrote:That right there makes it more then possible to activate the tattoo's .. 10+12+6 = 28 . From just 1 Tattoo.

Incorrect.

An Atlantean Nomad, or any other non caster, with that amount of 28 PPE would not be able to activate Protection from Vampires which costs 30 PPE at double cost.

And as I said earlier, I don't think they should need extra tattoos just to be able to activate an iconic racial ability.

See the rest of my post ... do not pick an choose what you want to argue with my posts if I clearly answered your whole not all are mages problem ..

And yet here we are again .. with me answering your question to which your prolly just going to say na-ah ..

Rifts World book 2 Atlantis pg 102 wrote:PERMANENT BASE PPE FOR ATLANTEANS +2D6 PER LVL .

To which you might say for that class .. then I retort .. they why is that different from every other Racial stone master class .. as there are TWO racial listed PPE base's ..

To me that means the quote I just showed you means for the entire race that is the bonas per lvl you give them automatically .

Lenwen wrote:

Rifts World book 2 Atlantis pg 102 wrote:PERMANENT BASE PPE FOR ATLANTEANS +2D6 PER LVL .

To which you might say for that class .. then I retort .. they why is that different from every other Racial stone master class .. as there are TWO racial listed PPE base's ..

To me that means the quote I just showed you means for the entire race that is the bonas per lvl you give them automatically .

Yep the entire race that are Stonemasters.

Lenwen wrote:

Rifts World book 2 Atlantis pg 102 wrote:PERMANENT BASE PPE FOR ATLANTEANS +2D6 PER LVL .

To which you might say for that class .. then I retort .. they why is that different from every other Racial stone master class .. as there are TWO racial listed PPE base's ..

To me that means the quote I just showed you means for the entire race that is the bonas per lvl you give them automatically .

Actually I will argue that you interpreted it incoorectly. Both TA and non-TA all gain 2d6 PPE per level. the difference is in the base.

the full quote:

Rifts World book 2 Atlantis pg 102 wrote:P.P.E.: Like all men of magic, the stone master is a living battery of mystic energy that he can draw on to create magic. Unlike the other magic O.C.C.s, the stone master can store and draw on vast amounts of P.P.E. through stone pyramids (explained in the section entitled, Pyramid Technology). Permanent Base P.P.E. for Atlanteans: The P.E. attribute times three, plus the usual bonus for Atlanteans and from magic tattoos. Add 2D6 P.P.E per each additional level of experience. Of course the mage can draw on energy from ley lines, nexus points, gem stones and pyramids, but not from other living beings. P.P.E. Recovery is 10 per hour or 15 through meditation.
Base P.P.E. for Non-Atlantean Stone Masters: The P.E. attribute times two plus 30 points. Add 2D6 P.P.E per additional level of experience. Also the mage can draw on energy from ley lines, nexus points, gem stones and pyramids, but not from other living beings. P.P.E. Recovery is 5 per hour or 10 if meditating.

Emphasis is mine.

The difference between the TA Stone Master and the non-TA stone Master is the base PPE, not the PPE per level gained. Thus this PPE gain per level is a function of the class, not the race. The TA has greater PPE recovery per hour, but not in amount gained per level. And in fact under the section on page 100 it shows the same extra PPE for having the marks of heritage and any extra tattoos as what the general Race section gives much earlier in the book. If anything this class acts as a template for how the Marks of Heritage and such react with any magic using class.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Rifts World book 2 Atlantis pg 102 wrote:PERMANENT BASE PPE FOR ATLANTEANS +2D6 PER LVL .

To which you might say for that class .. then I retort .. they why is that different from every other Racial stone master class .. as there are TWO racial listed PPE base's ..

To me that means the quote I just showed you means for the entire race that is the bonas per lvl you give them automatically .

Yep the entire race that are Stonemasters.

Well considering thier basically advanced Humans ...

Why would they be givin more PPE for none caster classes ?

**EDIT**

of course they get the standard PPE extra per tattoo .. but honestly if thier not a mage class why would they gain more PPE per lvl ?

That should be the REAL question .

Thats like takin a human who is a CS grunt forcing him to undergo the tattoo treatment and give him about 4 tattoo's and then saying .. yeah now he gets XdX amount of extra ppe per lvl ..

If thier not a PPE dependent class .. why would they gain any more PPE per lvl then zero ? Especially if its only to power said tattoo's that already get thier own +6 ppe per tattoo ?

The Atlantean marks of heratige are just that .. marks of heratige , thier not the main source of each atlantean's power and ofcoures thier not going to be the primary weapons they use .. Making them tattoo's in effect secondary weaponry meaning that thier obviously not going to be able to power every 1 of them at the same time but they WILL be able to use 1 at a time .

Lenwen wrote:of course they get the standard PPE extra per tattoo .. but honestly if thier not a mage class why would they gain more PPE per lvl ?
That should be the REAL question .
Thats like takin a human who is a CS grunt forcing him to undergo the tattoo treatment and give him about 4 tattoo's and then saying .. yeah now he gets XdX amount of extra ppe per lvl ..
If thier not a PPE dependent class .. why would they gain any more PPE per lvl then zero ? Especially if its only to power said tattoo's that already get thier own +6 ppe per tattoo ?
The Atlantean marks of heratige are just that .. marks of heratige , thier not the main source of each atlantean's power and ofcoures thier not going to be the primary weapons they use .. Making them tattoo's in effect secondary weaponry meaning that thier obviously not going to be able to power every 1 of them at the same time but they WILL be able to use 1 at a time .

But they do NOT get more per level than a non-TA. They get the same per level as a non-TA. If a CS Grunt somehow became a Stone Master (changed OCCs), then he would gain 2d6 PPE per level, just like every other Stone Master. He would have a lower base than the TA, but his gains per level would be the same.

Lenwen wrote:Well considering thier basically advanced Humans ...

Why would they be givin more PPE for none caster classes ?

Because even the non-magic classes are trained in magic is some ways. Use of Tattoos and pyramids for example. Unless of course you mean more PPE per level. In which case keep reading.

**EDIT**

of course they get the standard PPE extra per tattoo .. but honestly if thier not a mage class why would they gain more PPE per lvl ?

That should be the REAL question .

They don't. See MikelAmroni's post.

Okay. So since Cyberknights have a higher PPE base than normal, do they gain the 2d6 PPE per level if they're a TA? Might as well ask this one now, too, since I'm already the subject of so much bludgeoning. (Yay, Bludgeoning! Decreasing intelligence clubbing after clubbing!)

I'm not sure how the jump from a magic OCC getting 2d6 per level to the race getting 2d6 per level was made, but they don't. Unless they are a man of magic OCC (ley line walker, tattooed man, stone master, shifter, mystic, etc) then the average True Atlantean has the same amount of PPE at character creation as he does at 15th level. So he has the same ability with his tattoos (in terms of how many times he can activate them) at first as he does at 15th level. the efectiveness and duration may have grown, they can use them the same number of times per day. Period. And since we've shown examples of TAs with normal priced tattoos who are not tattooed men, we know that TAs pay normal price for the tattoos.